Batman's "Sort-Of" Cool...

[chrismarker]

Adi -- just saw the new Batman movie...I never like Batman -- always thought he was too weak and goofy, but the new movie was surprisingly good. And I think the reason was -- aside from a well concieved story of his origins -- was the effort to make him a figure of horror. And it mostly worked, until he would decalre the irredeemiably goofy line, "I'm Batman." Otherwise, it worked. Just mentioing this because it goes along with my ideas that Iron Man should be steering more toward the waters of horror. Again, a figure frightening to look at. What do you think?

[Adi Granov]

Sorry for the belated reply to this. Haven't been on line the last few days.

Yeah, I saw Batman too and I also thought that Wayne in it was very close to how I imagine Tony Stark to be. Tormented between having the means to do something but not knowing how to do it. The whole symbolism of the suit, the need for the iconic in order to give people womething to believe in and the criminals something to fear.

I really liked the movie. The "I'm Batman" line didn't bother me because I was expecting it, it was inevitable. The Batmobile, though, stole the show for me. The big sequence over the rooftops was awesome, in my opinion. It made something seemingly ridiculously stupid into something great to see. If I had gotten something like that in a script to illustrate I'd think it was way too much, but they pulled it off.

I saw one of the original Batman suits from the movie in London and it looked horrible up close, no moving, overlapping parts, just a big rubber/foam suit and motorcycle boots. The belt was pretty cool though.

[chrismarker]

Yeah, the car and roof-top chase scenes were cool (though I still think the crane chase sequence in Terminator 3 is tops), but my wife, who'se not into comics, liked the movie because there was so much gray area between Batamn and the villian: i.e., they both had a lot more in common than not. Still, the problem with the story (for me anyway) and one that i think relates to IronMan (and which Sal tears away at) has to do with class politics and the belief that we need benevolent rich people to save the world, or "those less fortunate" as Bruce Wayne's dad mutters unreflectively to his son. God, please, "less fortunate"?! What the hell does that mean?! Spare us the talk of "fortune" and indict yourself and the economic system that produced the very situation you purportedly want to change! I mean isn't that the reason Tony's so torn and borderline schizophrenic? And, Adi, about Icons -- well, that's where Ironman (in my mind) should be an icon too -- not of hope, though, but, yes, of horror: "What's the Iron Suit for, Tony?" Sal asks as Tony stares mutely into space...Sal might have said here, "If you won't answer Tony, I will. IronMan's a high-tech straight jacket designed as a last ditch 'hope' to save us from ourselves."

[John Drake]

I saw one of the original Batman suits from the movie in London and it looked horrible up close, no moving, overlapping parts, just a big rubber/foam suit and motorcycle boots. The belt was pretty cool though.

You mean the suit he used in the movie or an earlier version of that suit?

[Adi Granov]

The one Bale used in the movie.

[Mike Haseloff]

Horror Iron Man?!


Eh... I don't know about that.
Even the Stark/Wayne comparison sits a little uncomfortably with me.

Although on the surface there are similarities, I think, and I like to think, that they're two very different characters. Bruce Wayne is a behind the scenes figure in business, who makes appearances when he has to, and socializes as his business requires. Personally, I prefer a morose Bruce Wayne, like what we're seeing in current Detective Comics, or in Loeb's work.

Tony Stark, on the other hand, is defined almost in the opposite way.
I think he revels in the social scene, and can turn the charm on as much as he does or doesn't want to, while having a genuinely good time. I think in business he's a much more self-made man, dedicating as much time as he can to his company and work.

I consider Iron Man a much lighter character too.

I really find it hard to see Iron Man in a horror context. :?

[paintstain]

My favorite line from Tales of Suspense #40:
"But little does Jeanne, or any OTHER person know that Tony Stark has left the gay party for a most unusual date with...AN ELECTRICAL CORD!"

In the first Iron Man stories Stark didn't revel in the social scene as much as only appeared to revel in it. His heart condition kept him from participating in the fun or committing too deeply, and his dates always assumed he was just flitting from woman to woman becuase he was just a playboy. All of this and more led to his alcoholism. Though not as dark as Batman, who was born out of murder, Stark's lightness is only a masquerade, hiding an underlying sense of something missing in his life.

The first Tales of Suspense Iron Man stories often nailed him as having "THREE LIVES!": 1. the "Mechanical Genius", 2. Iron Man - "Anthony Stark's most Important identity!", 3. and the sophisticated millionaire playboy, which was the identity he most uncomfortable with.

Another favorite moment in TOS issue #40: after saving a crowd while on a date at the circus (!?), Stark's companion exclaims "why does he wear such a TERRIFYING costume? He actually FRIGHTENS people!" Batman-like? Well...no... But he takes some advice from the woman and paints his armor gold, saying:
"WOW! What a difference! Leave it to a woman to figure out an attractive appearance! The only ones who need fear me now are my foes!"

I think Warren should use those last lines in the new arc.

[chrismarker]

The image of Ironman as a figure of horror -- like something Blake, Goya, Dali, and others might imagine -- is almost necessary given this arc: Ellis, it seems, has rendered Ironman obselete and inscribed a world in which technology can only lead to self-extinction. Also, there's this imprint of the armor as a self-made prison that's there, that seems to infect Tony's psyche: it should be painful to don that armor, not heoric, not invigorating, but painful, physically and emotionally, even to the point of hate. If this arc has imparted anything, it's that the distinctions between good and evil are ultimately matters of perspective and that we're well past the panacea of believing that heroes will arrive in the nick of time to save the day:no, we're just trying to survive.

[Mike Haseloff]

The image of Ironman as a figure of horror -- like something Blake, Goya, Dali, and others might imagine -- is almost necessary given this arc: Ellis, it seems, has rendered Ironman obselete and inscribed a world in which technology can only lead to self-extinction. Also, there's this imprint of the armor as a self-made prison that's there, that seems to infect Tony's psyche: it should be painful to don that armor, not heoric, not invigorating, but painful, physically and emotionally, even to the point of hate. If this arc has imparted anything, it's that the distinctions between good and evil are ultimately matters of perspective and that we're well past the panacea of believing that heroes will arrive in the nick of time to save the day:no, we're just trying to survive.I can see how that might be horror for Tony Stark, but not how that translates into a piece of horror fiction.

I also don't really like that.
That's sort of been played out earlier with the heart problems, and I was happy to let that be resolved. I also think the tortured hero, in that respect, is overplayed, and it's nice to have Tony Stark enjoy being Iron Man, rather than struggling with it.

I think it should be liberating.

Another favorite moment in TOS issue #40: after saving a crowd while on a date at the circus (!?), Stark's companion exclaims "why does he wear such a TERRIFYING costume? He actually FRIGHTENS people!" Batman-like? Well...no... But he takes some advice from the woman and paints his armor gold, saying:
"WOW! What a difference! Leave it to a woman to figure out an attractive appearance! The only ones who need fear me now are my foes!"

I think Warren should use those last lines in the new arc.I still don't think Iron Man lends himself to horror, but reading that... it would be tantilizing to play the reverse of that, and have Iron Man appear less than attractive.

I guess the helmet plays to that the last few years, but he's still pretty clean and slick looking...

[chrismarker]

Mike, yeah, that's where I'm going, to a disfigured, horrifying, "ElephantMan" like Ironman: something just horrible to look at. It could start with the armor itself: it starts to become sentient. Each time Tony dons it, it becomes less and less responsive: Tony can't figure it out; then during some kind of emergency while he's wearing it, it just takes him over, consumes fim, fuses itself to his body; it's becomes the reified struggle of his own double consciousness -- you know, the one that makes him look in the mirror and hate himself. And then, then, Frankestein like experiments to separate himself from the armor, failure after failure, made even more acute by the seductive recognition that he's actually becoming more powerful than he has ever been; that the armor is his flesh; that he is no longer even human and arguably closer to being that which he was conceived to defeat. And finally, in a series of events mirroring our own inhumainty to eachother, he becomes ugly...and more ugly, until to look at him is painful and punishing...You up for drawing that Iron Man, Adi?

[Mike Haseloff]

Mike, yeah, that's where I'm going, to a disfigured, horrifying, "ElephantMan" like Ironman: something just horrible to look at. It could start with the armor itself: it starts to become sentient. Each time Tony dons it, it becomes less and less responsive: Tony can't figure it out; then during some kind of emergency while he's wearing it, it just takes him over, consumes fim, fuses itself to his body; it's becomes the reified struggle of his own double consciousness -- you know, the one that makes him look in the mirror and hate himself. And then, then, Frankestein like experiments to separate himself from the armor, failure after failure, made even more acute by the seductive recognition that he's actually becoming more powerful than he has ever been; that the armor is his flesh; that he is no longer even human and arguably closer to being that which he was conceived to defeat. And finally, in a series of events mirroring our own inhumainty to eachother, he becomes ugly...and more ugly, until to look at him is painful and punishing...You up for drawing that Iron Man, Adi?Eh... I prefer a more practical and logical progression. Sentient armor... I wouldn't buy it. That, and it's been done, with Steel.

Bonding with the armor is probably a little too far fetched for my liking, too.
I mean, it's a nice idea, and would make a great story! I just don't think it works for Iron Man.

For me, Iron Man is the kind of concept that works fantastically for a Japanese mecha story... but it's the contrast between American cars and Japanese cars. I like Iron Man to keep the distinction of super heroics, and a reasonably grounded concept. I prefer smaller, less fantastical villains than Fin Fang Foom and Diablo.

If it were me, I'd be looking at a new suit of armor, for whatever reason, that just isn't very appealing. Iron is a pretty unappealing metal, and when I think of it I can't help but think of rusty reds. So, I'd be looking for a very coarse, rusty looking Iron Man, that you might not want to stand next to for fear of electric shock or poisoning.

I'd be looking at making the armor a lot less environmentally friendly too, in this case. Black smoke from the boots, or something... something moody, and unhealthy.


Ultimately, I think Iron Man's progressed to the best place he can be, though.
Tony Stark is a master businessman/technician, and he's made himself a super hero that's at the pinnacle of technology.

I like it slick. In fact, I'd probably like to nudge it further.
Send Iron Man into a world of high-end fashion, and things of that nature... I like the idea of Iron Man being an upper class hero, as opposed to a Batman who sifts through the crap of the city.

Iron Man rises above it.

[chrismarker]

Mike -- a high class, haute couture IronMan? I can see it now: Fashion crimes at the Emmy's! Joan Rivers and Daughter in peril! Here comes IronMan representing the House of Dior to save all the TV celebrities from the deadly poison of Perfume-Man! But seriously, Mike, how do you reconcile the class politics of rich-guy super-heor who "rises above it all"? I mean it's classic ruling class mythology: The poor are too dumb, or "misfortunate," to help themselves: we NEED rich people to save us and provide a source of inspiration for the world...Exuse me while I puke! Give me an IronMan like Kurtz in Apocalypse Now: that's the legacy of the rich...Let Ironman be the reflection of the horrors of military technology unchecked...like Extremis...Let Mallen stare in the eyes of IronMan and know horror...the horror of his own fate.

[Mike Haseloff]

Mike -- a high class, haute couture IronMan? I can see it now: Fashion crimes at the Emmy's! Joan Rivers and Daughter in peril! Here comes IronMan representing the House of Dior to save all the TV celebrities from the deadly poison of Perfume-Man!I like the world of fashion! :p
I'm making my own fashion super heroes. Fooey to youey! :mad:

I was talking more about Tony Stark, than Iron Man. ;)

But seriously, Mike, how do you reconcile the class politics of rich-guy super-heor who "rises above it all"? I mean it's classic ruling class mythology: The poor are too dumb, or "misfortunate," to help themselves: we NEED rich people to save us and provide a source of inspiration for the world...Exuse me while I puke! Give me an IronMan like Kurtz in Apocalypse Now: that's the legacy of the rich...Let Ironman be the reflection of the horrors of military technology unchecked...like Extremis...Let Mallen stare in the eyes of IronMan and know horror...the horror of his own fate.In comics, I just think the ruling class are coming down to street level too often.

Iron Man was pro-war in a time when that wasn't really cool.
Let's point him against the grain again. Let's make him a swanky well to do guy, who doesn't really care about the crumbs.

Keep Iron Man clean and shiney and "realistic". :cool:

[Mike Haseloff]

http://www.zeuscomics.com/images/covers/iron-man-2.jpg VS http://www.riedog.com/mugatu.jpg



Just try and tell me I'm wrong. :D

[chrismarker]

"the horror...the horror.. :shock: