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Treacle
06-26-2009, 07:15 PM
I haven't seen the movie, so I'm reserving my personal critiques for when I do, but I'm seeing a lot of feedback from both the internet and my circle of friends about the twin robots, Skids and Mudflap, who speak in "jive," admit they can't get read, constantly fight...and I believe one even has a gold tooth.

I imagine some of you all have seen the movie by now, so I wondered about your opinion. I've copied and pasted a bit of a Yahoo article below if you need some context:


As good guys, they fight alongside the Autobots and are intended to provide comic relief. But their traits raise the specter of stereotypes most notably seen when Jar Jar Binks, the clumsy, broken-English speaking alien from "Star Wars: Episode I — The Phantom Menace," was criticized as a caricature.

One fan called the Transformers twins "Jar Jar Bots" in a blog post online.

Todd Herrold, who watched the movie in New York City, called the characters "outrageous."

In Atlanta, Rico Lawson said people were reading too much into the characters. "It was actually funny," said Lawson, 25, who saw the movie with his girlfriend in Atlanta.

That was the aim, director Michael Bay said in an interview.

"It's done in fun," he said. "I don't know if it's stereotypes — they are robots, by the way. These are the voice actors. This is kind of the direction they were taking the characters and we went with it."

Bay said the twins' parts "were kind of written but not really written, so the voice actors is when we started to really kind of come up with their characters."

Actor Reno Wilson, who is black, voices Mudflap. Tom Kenny, the white actor behind SpongeBob SquarePants, voices Skids.

Wilson said Wednesday that he never imagined viewers might consider the twins to be racial caricatures. When he took the role, he was told that the alien robots learned about human culture through the Web and that the twins were "wannabe gangster types."

"It's an alien who uploaded information from the Internet and put together the conglomeration and formed this cadence, way of speaking and body language that was accumulated over X amount of years of information and that's what came out," the 40-year-old actor said. "If he had uploaded country music, he would have come out like that."

It's not fair to assume the characters are black, he said.

Hollywood has a track record of using negative stereotypes of black characters for comic relief, said Todd Boyd, a professor of popular culture at the University of Southern California's School of Cinematic Arts, who has not seen the "Transformers" sequel.

"There's a history of people getting laughs at the expense of African-Americans and African-American culture," Boyd said. "These images are not completely divorced from history even though it's a new movie and even though they're robots and not humans."

"There's a persistent dehumanization of African-Americans throughout Hollywood that displaces issues of race onto non-human entities," said Field, who also hasn't seen the film. "It's not about skin color or robot color. It's about how their actions and language are coded racially."

Link. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090625/ap_on_en_mo/us_film_transformers_jar_jar_again)

Bill!
06-26-2009, 07:21 PM
I don't like the stereotyping, but to me the last statement is a little unfair, to say that Hollywood is the instigator of African American stereotyping, when really, all that it sounds like the characters are copies of is the majority of successful African American rap artists.

Buk Was Right
06-26-2009, 07:21 PM
Jar Jar Bots is ok, but I saw one article refer to them as "Step-bot & Fetchit-tron", which I think is a lot more creative.

Spidey616
06-26-2009, 07:22 PM
It wasn't enough that they killed off Jazz in the first one :no:

Donal DeLay
06-26-2009, 07:33 PM
stereotypes, yes. Racist? NO, because I've seen multiple races acting, dressing, and speaking like that.

MIKE D
06-26-2009, 07:33 PM
I saw it today, and I was pretty jazzed for it as I enjoyed the first one. But these characters are real mood killers. I mean they are horrifing in the how casually racist they are, as if Bay and company came from some alternate world where Amos and Andy were beloved multi-generational institutions. Everyone involved with bringing those characters to fuition should be ashamed of themselves.

A.Huerta
06-26-2009, 07:35 PM
Were they portrayed as Black? I dont think so.

Were they portrayed as Hood? Most likely.

http://www.inlander.com/files/imagecache/full_size/SCREEN_REMOTE_REALITY.jpg

JamesV
06-26-2009, 07:41 PM
It's really hard for me to say it was racist as I know mostly white kids who talk and behave like that. However, were they at times cringe worthy stereotypes bordering on possible racist caricatures? Yeah...

A.Huerta
06-26-2009, 07:44 PM
Anyone can be hood, so I cant really see how its racist.

Joe Kalicki
06-26-2009, 07:44 PM
Racism would be the least of these movies' problems.

bartleby
06-26-2009, 07:44 PM
Screenwriters Orci and Kurtzman basically agree and say not to blame them, that it was all Michael Bay's doing. (http://www.filmschoolrejects.com/news/orci-and-kurtzman-respond-to-claims-of-racism-in-transformers-2.php)

Ultimate Lurker
06-26-2009, 07:47 PM
Attributing the personalities and actions of those characters to only one race is racist.

Ray G.
06-26-2009, 07:48 PM
This was a hundred times worse than Jar Jar.

At worst, Jar Jar could be seen as a callback to an old Hollywood stereotype that most people who saw the Phantom Menace were unaware of. And I don't even think he was that.

These two were basically pure stereotypes in action, and the stereotypes were both clearly negative and current. The gold teeth? "We Don't Read?" What the fuck?

A.Huerta
06-26-2009, 07:56 PM
Attributing the personalities and actions of those characters to only one race is racist.

I like your style.

Jim.
06-26-2009, 08:03 PM
You cracka, I don't know whatchu be talkin bout. Jive turkey, Transformers 2 is the dopest movie of the summa! It's like the the first one but erything be turned up to 11. So just chill homie, and see the illest movie of da summa!

Georgie
06-26-2009, 08:05 PM
Racist, no. Racially insensitive, yes. Honestly, the combination of the way the characters acted and spoke with the way they looked was what was offensive.

Treacle
06-26-2009, 08:05 PM
You cracka, I don't know whatchu be talkin bout. Jive turkey, Transformers 2 is the dopest movie of the summa! It's like the the first one but erything be turned up to 11. So just chill homie, and see the illest movie of da summa!

Oh dear.

A.Huerta
06-26-2009, 08:06 PM
You cracka, I don't know whatchu be talkin bout. Jive turkey, Transformers 2 is the dopest movie of the summa! It's like the the first one but erything be turned up to 11. So just chill homie, and see the illest movie of da summa!

Jive turkey and cracka?

No one talks like that. Nice try, tho.

Dark Sasha
06-26-2009, 08:08 PM
Oh please. I can't tell any of those robots apart!

Ryan Elliott
06-26-2009, 08:08 PM
You cracka, I don't know whatchu be talkin bout. Jive turkey, Transformers 2 is the dopest movie of the summa! It's like the the first one but erything be turned up to 11. So just chill homie, and see the illest movie of da summa!


Word.

Jim.
06-26-2009, 08:08 PM
Jive turkey and cracka?

No one talks like that. Nice try, tho.
That's how these robots talked. I'm practically quoting them.

A.Huerta
06-26-2009, 08:11 PM
That's how these robots talked. I'm practically quoting them.

I saw the movie and yours is much worse. :)

Foolish Mortal
06-26-2009, 08:11 PM
They were talking like this..?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzKCtMr4CtI

Jim.
06-26-2009, 08:12 PM
I saw the movie and yours is much worse. :)
Yo yo yo! No need to be fightin up in this mutha! Let's go fight some bitch ass Decepticons!

Georgie
06-26-2009, 08:12 PM
I saw the movie and yours is much worse. :)

Aside from the terms "Cracka" and "Jive Turkey", he was pretty on point.

Dark Sasha
06-26-2009, 08:12 PM
They were talking like this..?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzKCtMr4CtI

I was going to make that reference!

Jim.
06-26-2009, 08:13 PM
they were talking like this..?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzkctmr4cti
yes!

Ray G.
06-26-2009, 08:14 PM
The sad thing is, as much as I hated them, I think I still preferred them to Carl Fredricksen in Robot form, or whatever that lumbering thing was called.

Georgie
06-26-2009, 08:16 PM
The sad thing is, as much as I hated them, I think I still preferred them to Carl Fredricksen in Robot form, or whatever that lumbering thing was called.

I thought that was just Treebeard from Lord of the Rings, only, ya know...a robot.

A.Huerta
06-26-2009, 08:20 PM
Aside from the terms "Cracka" and "Jive Turkey", he was pretty on point.

Whats your point tho. I know some white and asians who talk like that. Its called ghetto not black.

Ray G.
06-26-2009, 08:21 PM
I thought that was just Treebeard from Lord of the Rings, only, ya know...a robot.

Between the douchebots, Treebot, and the random Terminator, this movie was such a mess.

Also, the humans weren't great shakes either. John Turturro and Random Douche as battling nerds - the comedy team no one wanted!

Foolish Mortal
06-26-2009, 08:23 PM
I haven't seen it yet, but I presume the reason why they did this was to give the robots more distinct personalities. So they go for the broad caricatures.

Joe Kalicki
06-26-2009, 08:24 PM
I haven't seen it yet, but I presume the reason why they did this was to give the robots more distinct personalities. So they go for the broad caricatures.

Oh, were there lady Transformers too? Did they do their nails and talk about shopping all the time?

Tom Burgos
06-26-2009, 08:26 PM
How long before we see a lisping, limp-wristed Transformer (a pink convertible, duh) that loves musical theatre and Cher? (I wouldn't be shocked if this actually happened fro part 3)

Petey Parker
06-26-2009, 08:29 PM
How long before we see a lisping, limp-wristed Transformer (a pink convertible, duh) that loves musical theatre and Cher? (I wouldn't be shocked if this actually happened fro part 3)

Wheelie always seemed like he preferred the company of male autobots (although they already used the name in this movie)

Dark Sasha
06-26-2009, 08:30 PM
Wheelie always seemed like he preferred the company of male autobots (although they already used the name in this movie)

"Me Grimlock no kisser! ME GRIMLOCK KING!"

Gene Reginato
06-26-2009, 08:36 PM
One line of dialogue with the characters mocking the robots would be enough to salvage this, but nooo...

Magnum V.I.
06-26-2009, 08:40 PM
Some of you probably have never seen a black person before...

http://thebestsportsblog.com/images/alig.jpg

Hello.

Jason California
06-26-2009, 08:42 PM
I can't wait to see this movie.

Georgie
06-26-2009, 08:56 PM
Whats your point tho. I know some white and asians who talk like that. Its called ghetto not black.

My point was saying "That's how they spoke in the films"

Go back earlier in this thread, I didn't say the characters were racist.

Blue Flash
06-26-2009, 09:04 PM
let's keep things in perspective people, this is a film by the director of Bad Boys II.

Adrian B AWESOME
06-26-2009, 09:22 PM
They weren't racist, just stupid.

Michael Wagner
06-26-2009, 09:28 PM
Wasn't this done in the first movie? Jazz was break dancing and the biggest tell is that he died. I was like "Why did the black robot have to die?" Totally WTF?

Petey Parker
06-26-2009, 09:31 PM
Some of you probably have never seen a black person before...

http://thebestsportsblog.com/images/alig.jpg

Hello.

Jezzy, iz you wearing green? I knew it - you iz defected to the Iver 'Eath posse, innit? Come on - let's stab him!

Big Poot!
06-26-2009, 09:59 PM
Somebody get HOOKS in here to lay down the law on all you racists!! :drama:

Kurt Russell Crowe
06-27-2009, 04:32 AM
They're not racist. They were like frat boys more than anything.

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-27-2009, 05:07 AM
Someone actually warned me to look out for Skids and Mudflap, but I didn't know what they meant.

I'll be seeing this tonight and will report back on my findings. Its no secret that I don't care for Bayformers (pretty much exactly what meets the eye). I feel like research into the concepts were superficial at best and there was a lot of questionable humor that wasn't appropriate for kids.

bartleby
06-27-2009, 06:04 AM
They're not racist. They were like frat boys more than anything.

Yeah, because gold teeth are a pretty stereotypical frat boy thing.

MIKE D
06-27-2009, 06:22 AM
Yeah, because gold teeth are a pretty stereotypical frat boy thing.

I know a lot a frat boys with gold buck teeth and big ears.

Christopher Brian
06-27-2009, 06:34 AM
let's keep things in perspective people, this is a film by the director of Bad Boys II.

I told someone the other day they reminded me of Martin Lawrence and Will Smith's characters from Bad Boys fighting with each other... just really exaggerated.

No one complained about Martin Lawrence's character in BB & BB2 being reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally bad(though funny)

It's Michael Bay ya'll... I doubt he even thinks on that level. His idea of funny is just off.

J. R. Scherer
06-27-2009, 12:21 PM
I don't even know what happened to these characters in this movie. I remember a big action sequence with them swinging around Devastator like monkeys and then they were just gone for the rest of the movie. Did I miss something? Did Devastator finish eating them off-screen?

NathanDetroit
06-27-2009, 01:07 PM
i love that Michael Bay puts the blame squarely on the voice actors. as if he had no part in making the film, or actually DIRECTING anyone.

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-27-2009, 02:30 PM
My friend called me and literally warned me not to see this movie. And he said that Twins were not cool. I jokingly told him that he was hypersensitive so he was probably projecting, but he said in all seriousness that Michael Bay was on his list now. He said and I quote "that movie is a crime against cinema."

J. R. Scherer
06-27-2009, 03:59 PM
My friend called me and literally warned me not to see this movie. And he said that Twins were not cool. I jokingly told him that he was hypersensitive so he was probably projecting, but he said in all seriousness that Michael Bay was on his list now. He said and I quote "that movie is a crime against cinema."

The fights that involve Optimus Prime were all pretty cool, but otherwise that is an accurate assessment. It is astoundingly bad, and unfortunately not in a 'so-bad-it's-funny' way.

c.rob
06-27-2009, 04:31 PM
I don't like the stereotyping, but to me the last statement is a little unfair, to say that Hollywood is the instigator of African American stereotyping, when really, all that it sounds like the characters are copies of is the majority of successful African American rap artists.

please tell me this post is a really heady joke.

A.Huerta
06-27-2009, 04:40 PM
Im still waiting for the Lowrider Transformer.

King of Mars
06-27-2009, 05:01 PM
I wish I could see the robots in question without actually having to watch Transformers.

The Hodag
06-27-2009, 05:07 PM
I wish I could see the robots in question without actually having to watch Transformers.

I saw at least a glimpse of them when I went and watched the various trailers on YouTube the other day.

A.Huerta
06-27-2009, 05:08 PM
I wish I could see the robots in question without actually having to watch Transformers.



http://www.nerdles.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/transformers-20090409-skids-mudflaps-cg.jpg

The Hodag
06-27-2009, 05:09 PM
Im still waiting for the Lowrider Transformer.

Seems like something for Robot Chicken - do they still do that show? I'm without cable.

Anyway, suggested name for the Lowrider Transformers:


Vato-bots. :cool:

The Hodag
06-27-2009, 05:11 PM
And the close-up...

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd43/Devastattor/53_71646_5cdc4999761a773.jpg

J. R. Scherer
06-27-2009, 05:28 PM
http://www.nerdles.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/transformers-20090409-skids-mudflaps-cg.jpg

They're very ape-like in their appearance and movements in the movie, too. Really, their entire execution is just incredibly poorly thought out.

J. R. Scherer
06-27-2009, 05:29 PM
And the close-up...

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd43/Devastattor/53_71646_5cdc4999761a773.jpg

Remember when Bay was telling us all just how stupid the original G1 designs would look on the big screen?

A.Huerta
06-27-2009, 05:43 PM
WHen I see that face I think of this guy
http://www.errantentertainment.com/interviews/tednoodleman/_images/tedpin.jpg

Girlfriend In A Coma
06-27-2009, 06:14 PM
We took my guy's 12 year old niece and nephew and while we all had a great time- I totally hated those two fucking robots.

I was totally happy every time Soundwave spoke and Megatron bitchslapped Starscream though...And that fight scene...

There was one guy in the theater who would go "OOOOOHHHHHH! " Every time a dog humped, a guy bared his ass, and loudest of all when That big piece of metal popped outta that chick's ass. YIKES!
So now we're all screaming, "OOOOOHHHHHH!" at every little thing.

Frozen Sooner
06-27-2009, 07:33 PM
The twins might as well have been wearing blackface.

I still had a good time at the movie, but my reaction to the twins was that they were a racially-insensitive portrayal of African-americans without having read anything that would precondition me to that conclusion.

tonym
06-27-2009, 07:34 PM
A customer and employee were talking about this today. The customers were black and said they thought the twins were impersonating some white-trash wiggers.

A.Huerta
06-27-2009, 07:47 PM
A customer and employee were talking about this today. The customers were black and said they thought the twins were impersonating some white-trash wiggers.

People who see Black faces on those Bots are racist.

stevapalooza
06-27-2009, 08:08 PM
I think they're just bad comedy relief.

Joe Kalicki
06-27-2009, 08:12 PM
I don't want to sound racist, but all Transformers look the same to me.

Dark Sasha
06-27-2009, 08:14 PM
I think they're just bad comedy relief.

"This is bad comedy"

greg donovan
06-27-2009, 08:20 PM
A customer and employee were talking about this today. The customers were black and said they thought the twins were impersonating some white-trash wiggers.

they reminded me of jamie kennedy's white rapper character.

Kirblar
06-27-2009, 08:22 PM
I'm not easily offended, but yeah, those two were ridiculously over the line.

Dark Sasha
06-27-2009, 08:23 PM
I'm sad Tom Kenny is the voice of one of them.

cmoney
06-27-2009, 08:31 PM
One line of dialogue with the characters mocking the robots would be enough to salvage this, but nooo...

Bumblebee didn't seem to impressed with 'em at the tomb.

GrandeMaestro Fünke
06-27-2009, 08:51 PM
I didn't like them, but I don't think I equated either of them as being black. I thought of them being like a guy from one the VH1 dating shows.

half guard
06-27-2009, 09:25 PM
I was like "Why did the black robot have to die?" Totally WTF?

:rofl:

half guard
06-27-2009, 09:27 PM
I don't want to sound racist, but all Transformers look the same to me.

double :rofl: :rofl:

MIKE D
06-28-2009, 04:28 AM
People who see Black faces on those Bots are racist.

Why are you compelled to insult everyone who found it questionable with such a tired, untrue over-generalization?

MAK15
06-28-2009, 06:03 AM
stereotype, sure.

but also pretty funny.
when the red one was blastin' his way outta Demolisher sayin' "you don't eat me! YOU DON'T EAT ME!' I genuinely thought it was funny

MAK15
06-28-2009, 06:07 AM
And the close-up...

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd43/Devastattor/53_71646_5cdc4999761a773.jpg

I like how goofy he looks

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-28-2009, 06:37 AM
"This is bad comedy"

Oh, very well done. :lol:

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-28-2009, 06:50 AM
Well I saw the movie. And in my opinion it was not good. It was almost exactly like the first one in all the bad ways and ultimately nothing changed by the end. And by the end where everything was blowing up I was pretending to drop bombs with my hands the way a kid would when playing with toys. My friends seemed to get what I was doing.

My favorite scene was when the Pretender was blowing up books.

But this isn't a review thread. We're here to talk about something specific.

It would be a whole different story with these characters if not for a combination of factors that are in play all at the same time. First of all, Autobots are supposed to be about something. And all the rest are, other than these two. They should "stay here and guard the base." You have the bizarre visual as far as the faces. The eyes, the ears, the lips, the teeth, the gold tooth. Ok, that's one thing. Then lets add on the voices and speech patterns. Alright, gotcha. How about the actual dialog? The part where they don't know what Cybertron is or how to pronounce it properly. That's kinda strange. Oh and there was the part where they admitted to not being able to read. So I'm not sure why these characters got so much screen time, any screen time of this presentation was too much. And when I take all of these factors in (I know some of you haven't seen it yet and have only seen pictures, not the whole package), I'm not sure what I'm supposed to think about this movie that I saw here in 2009. I mean you don't want to think the worst (the worst being that someone thought this would be really funny, but perhaps didn't really think it through or listen to advice), but I feel like something off happened in that movie. I'm not offended (well as a Transformers fan I'm offended by 99% of this movie) so much as puzzled I guess.

I would say see it for yourself an decide, but I'd feel bad for suggesting anyone pay with their precious money and time.

JamesV
06-28-2009, 06:58 AM
I was talking with a friend last night about them and about Orci and Kurtzman's vague comment about that's not how we meant the characters to be. A lot of their dialogue and actions -- if the jive talk and look of the characters were removed -- would cast them more as younger almost teenage robots.

The squabbling, the bravado, the insults, even the fact that they can't read Cybertronian. I think if the characters had been played like that (and obviously who knows if that's how they were meant to be) they would have been a whole lot more interesting in the film, especially since their fight with Devastator would have been when the two younger bots grow up.

Obviously all speculation, but I'd really like to know what was the original intent of the characters.

McGill
06-28-2009, 08:13 AM
They're dialogue is supposed to be annoying. that's the point, It's a funny action movie for teenagers not an Oscar nod performance flick.
plus if anyone is offended by the way they talk, that's just stupid, stop looking so deep into things and enjoy your life.

Marcdachamp
06-28-2009, 08:56 AM
This is easily the most ridiculous debate I've ever heard. The two bots are a parody of unintelligent relatives. I have two co-workers that act the same friggin' way. Both are white, both are morons, both use slang and both beat on one another constantly. If black people are the first thing you think of when you see that, maybe you've got some issues of your own.

If this were a black character, hell, if both vehicles were black, I would agree. Instead, it's two car robots with green and red paint jobs. The only major black character in the movie is an intelligent, high ranking military official. Seriously, this is just dumb.

bartleby
06-28-2009, 09:38 AM
It's become increasingly clear that, on the Bendis Board, some people just either don't understand or accept stereotyping or just pretend not to acknowledge fairly obvious examples of stereotypes for whatever the reason.

Corwin: Bear Fighter
06-28-2009, 09:46 AM
It's become increasingly clear that, on the Bendis Board, some people just either don't understand or accept stereotyping or just pretend not to acknowledge fairly obvious examples of stereotypes for whatever the reason.

Bing!

Ashwin Pande
06-28-2009, 10:17 AM
Thenk you come again!

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-28-2009, 10:35 AM
It's become increasingly clear that, on the Bendis Board, some people just either don't understand or accept stereotyping or just pretend not to acknowledge fairly obvious examples of stereotypes for whatever the reason.

I see various conversations and topics come and go, and I usually refrain from participating because sometimes I worry that my opinions are coming from out of left field or are my own personal baggage. So usually, if I'm talking about something, its about comic books. It could be a heated debate, but ultimately its still comics.

Everyone has different experiences in this life and everyone takes in life in different ways due to that. I accept that and incorporate that understanding into how I interact with others online and in the real world. That being said, I don't care for being dismissed. The initial post is a question and I'm here giving my personal thoughts on the prompt after having seen the movie. I could have gone either way on it too. If there wasn't anything to it, I'd have said so.

I guess the question we really have to ask is a really, really tough one. And that is why did these characters as presented immediately provoke the thoughts that they did in some of us? If anyone saw the movie Ghost World, there was this part with a vintage restaurant ad poster. It perpetuated a stark and bold image (disturbing to today's citizens) from another time that the person looking at it had to sort out how they felt about it. When I first saw R. Crumb material, I absolutely 100% did not understand his caricatures of black people. I think that now that I am older, maybe I understand what he was doing. And I say maybe, because maybe I only think I know what he was doing. And I'm officially rambling now...

Marcdachamp
06-28-2009, 10:45 AM
It's become increasingly clear that, on the Bendis Board, some people just either don't understand or accept stereotyping or just pretend not to acknowledge fairly obvious examples of stereotypes for whatever the reason.

Or it's increasingly clear that people decide to associate negative connotations with one particular race instead of acknowledging that these types of stereotypes are true across multiple races.

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-28-2009, 11:31 AM
Or it's increasingly clear that people decide to associate negative connotations with one particular race instead of acknowledging that these types of stereotypes are true across multiple races.

I really don't know that I would say I made a "decision" in reaching my conclusions.

I mean that's what the root of this whole thing is as I mentioned in my previous post. The movie made choices/ decisions about presentation, the viewer arrives at conclusions. Conclusions which will be different from person to person. But arriving at a conclusion is not the same as making a choice. I took in the whole movie, thought about it, and then took stock of what I felt. Like I said, I wasn't personally offended. Although some people with me were. Maybe they were kidding, but if they were they weren't laughing at any point. Not offended, but uncertain of the series of choices that led to the finished product I saw.

Marcdachamp
06-28-2009, 12:22 PM
I really don't know that I would say I made a "decision" in reaching my conclusions.

I mean that's what the root of this whole thing is as I mentioned in my previous post. The movie made choices/ decisions about presentation, the viewer arrives at conclusions. Conclusions which will be different from person to person. But arriving at a conclusion is not the same as making a choice. I took in the whole movie, thought about it, and then took stock of what I felt. Like I said, I wasn't personally offended. Although some people with me were. Maybe they were kidding, but if they were they weren't laughing at any point. Not offended, but uncertain of the series of choices that led to the finished product I saw.
I see exactly what you're saying, but if they were getting drunk off of Energon and starting fights, I wouldn't leap to offense as an Irishman. I know that Polish people act that way, Italian people act that way, Black people act that way, etc.

I honestly think the characters were intended as slapstick for the kids, and I think kids got a kick out of them. I groaned a few times at Skids and Mudflap, but our theater seemed to enjoy them.

At the end of the day, the personality traits were negative, so they were poked fun at. Why, as a society, are we unable to poke fun at something negative? Now, if the characters were black characters, or if they were even black cars, I'd say I agree with those that have an issue. But at the end of the day, we have two robots that act in a way that can be associated with any race. I've talked to several friends about this and most were kind of shocked when I mentioned the controversy.

ZombieSpeedball
06-28-2009, 12:23 PM
They're dialogue is supposed to be annoying. that's the point, It's a funny action movie for teenagers not an Oscar nod performance flick.
plus if anyone is offended by the way they talk, that's just stupid, stop looking so deep into things and enjoy your life.

I challenge. Find a point in the movie that is purposely funny.

I challenge again. You don't need to dig deep to find the blatant stereotypes that were plastered all over those characters. I've looked deeper into flat surfaces.

McGill
06-28-2009, 12:31 PM
I'm betting you could find racism in Mr. Rogers. That's how stupid this is.

I'm sure Michael Bay wasn't saying "Hey! let's make fun of blacks!"
It was probably more along the lines of "You Know what would be funny? Two cars that act like the teens in Waiting."

Oh and please tell me when a line about standing under an alien scrotum, or a mom eating hash brownies, or a line about a chick humping a neck like a mountain ox, isn't purposely trying to be funny?

McGill
06-28-2009, 12:33 PM
oh and about the stereotypes.
even lies base themselves within truth.

ZombieSpeedball
06-28-2009, 12:34 PM
I'm betting you could find racism in Mr. Rogers. That's how stupid this is.

I'm sure Michael Bay wasn't saying "Hey! let's make fun of blacks!"
It was probably more along the lines of "You Know what would be funny? Two cars that act like the teens in Waiting."

Oh and please tell me when a line about standing under an alien scrotum, or a mom eating hash brownies, or a line about a chick humping a neck like a mountain ox, isn't purposely trying to be funny?

I'm not saying it wasn't purposely trying to be funny.

And I really, really think Michael Bay's thought process was more along the lines of "Hey, what the fuck is gonna make kids fork over $15 for toys?"

ZombieSpeedball
06-28-2009, 12:35 PM
oh and about the stereotypes.
even lies base themselves within truth.

Whoa, wait, this grabbed my attention.

Xander Boune
06-28-2009, 12:56 PM
I think they were gangster stereotypes. I don't think they were racist. From the article:


Bay said the twins' parts "were kind of written but not really written, so the voice actors is when we started to really kind of come up with their characters."

Actor Reno Wilson, who is black, voices Mudflap. Tom Kenny, the white actor behind SpongeBob SquarePants, voices Skids.

Wilson said Wednesday that he never imagined viewers might consider the twins to be racial caricatures. When he took the role, he was told that the alien robots learned about human culture through the Web and that the twins were "wannabe gangster types."

"It's an alien who uploaded information from the Internet and put together the conglomeration and formed this cadence, way of speaking and body language that was accumulated over X amount of years of information and that's what came out," the 40-year-old actor said. "If he had uploaded country music, he would have come out like that."

It's not fair to assume the characters are black, he said.

Does anyone want to argue with the black voice actor that co-created them that they were racist black stereotypes? How about the other voice actor who is as white as they come?

Jazz spoke ebonics and was breakdancing in the first one, with the same built-in story reason for doing so, and I don't remember this kind of uproar then. If they were southern slack-jawed yokel stereotypes, would anyone be giving a shit then? I suspect the reason they went in this direction is that gangster culture still sells, particularly to teenagers. Bay put these characters in the movie to appeal to them, and the kids in the theaters I saw it with enjoyed the hell out of them.

ZombieSpeedball
06-28-2009, 12:58 PM
I think they were gangster stereotypes. I don't think they were racist. From the article:



Does anyone want to argue with the black voice actor that co-created them that they were racist black stereotypes? How about the other voice actor who is as white as they come?

Jazz spoke ebonics and was breakdancing in the first one, with the same built-in story reason for doing so, and I don't remember this kind of uproar then. If they were southern slack-jawed yokel stereotypes, would anyone be giving a shit then? I suspect the reason they went in this direction is that gangster culture still sells, particularly to teenagers. Bay put these characters in the movie to appeal to them, and the kids in the theaters I saw it with enjoyed the hell out of them.

My primary concern was just that the twins were nothing more than another way for them to make money. That's all. They served no real purpose.

Ashwin Pande
06-28-2009, 12:59 PM
Kids liked the crows in Dumbo too.

Magnum V.I.
06-28-2009, 01:00 PM
Kids liked the crows in Dumbo too.

:sad: But I never saw a House Fly.

ZombieSpeedball
06-28-2009, 01:01 PM
Kids liked the crows in Dumbo too.

I ain't never seen no Matrix nohow!

Xander Boune
06-28-2009, 01:02 PM
My primary concern was just that the twins were nothing more than another way for them to make money. That's all. They served no real purpose.

Bay's original intent was to make a pair of idiotic, bumbling twins that fought among themselves and were redeemed in the end by a heroic moment. And that's what we got, as they were the only two who went face to face with Devastator and blew off half his face.

Were they only included to broaden the appeal of the movie and entertain specific audiences? Probably, but that's part of Michael Bay's job.

ZombieSpeedball
06-28-2009, 01:06 PM
Bay's original intent was to make a pair of idiotic, bumbling twins that fought among themselves and were redeemed in the end by a heroic moment. And that's what we got, as they were the only two who went face to face with Devastator and blew off half his face.

Were they only included to broaden the appeal of the movie and entertain specific audiences? Probably, but that's part of Michael Bay's job.

But Michael Bay does his job so, so poorly and get rewarded heavily for it. He shows such blatant regard for continuity yet because he put a couple of Gangformers and a Pesci-bot that means he's doing his job? Yeah, he's supposed to appeal to as many people as he can, but can't he do that without, you know, putting together such a shitty movie?

Xander Boune
06-28-2009, 01:11 PM
But Michael Bay does his job so, so poorly and get rewarded heavily for it. He shows such blatant regard for continuity yet because he put a couple of Gangformers and a Pesci-bot that means he's doing his job? Yeah, he's supposed to appeal to as many people as he can, but can't he do that without, you know, putting together such a shitty movie?

I really enjoyed the movie, which arguably used more actual continuity than the first one. So did my brother and everyone I saw it with, and it got applause at the end both times. It seems like people on this board are more or less evenly divided on it. Sorry it was not your cup of tea, but I'm not interested in debating the merits of the movie here. I just don't think Skids and Mudflap were racist.

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-28-2009, 01:13 PM
I see exactly what you're saying, but if they were getting drunk off of Energon and starting fights, I wouldn't leap to offense as an Irishman. I know that Polish people act that way, Italian people act that way, Black people act that way, etc.

I honestly think the characters were intended as slapstick for the kids, and I think kids got a kick out of them. I groaned a few times at Skids and Mudflap, but our theater seemed to enjoy them.

At the end of the day, the personality traits were negative, so they were poked fun at. Why, as a society, are we unable to poke fun at something negative? Now, if the characters were black characters, or if they were even black cars, I'd say I agree with those that have an issue. But at the end of the day, we have two robots that act in a way that can be associated with any race. I've talked to several friends about this and most were kind of shocked when I mentioned the controversy.

I think that the slapstick for the benefit of kids idea has no bearing here. Too much cussin' and sexual innuendo in the movie to say that they had anything with kids in mind. And I know that the term "kids" covers a lot of age ranges.

And we are very much able to poke fun at negative things. We poke fun at the negative more often and more consistently than not though. Does that make it right because media pokes fun at perceived cultural traits over universal traits? Not for me to say.

I just think that the characters were not funny, they weren't for kids (Jar Jar for better or worse was intended to be a character that kids would find funny at the core), so what were they there for? I guess for other viewers who aren't me.

I don't expect anyone else to see where I'm coming from with this. And I am not saying that I am in some position better able to see whatever than anyone else or exist in some enlightened state where this thing stuck out like a sore thumb. I really don't care that much. My thoughts are mine and mine alone, so I'm not really trying to convince anyone of anything. Other than maybe, just maybe someone else other than yourself (whoever may read this) and the people in you everyday life, might see the very same thing that you do and feel something different. My real interest lies in my other posts about the responses imagery evokes and why.

ZombieSpeedball
06-28-2009, 01:13 PM
I really enjoyed the movie, which arguably used more actual continuity than the first one. So did my brother and everyone I saw it with, and it got applause at the end both times. It seems like people on this board are more or less evenly divided on it. Sorry it was not your cup of tea, but I'm not interested in debating the merits of the movie here. I just don't think Skids and Mudflap were racist.

I'm not even saying they were racist. I'm saying they were gimmicks. There was no real point in their being in the movie other than "comic relief" which did nothing to relieve me at all.

ZombieSpeedball
06-28-2009, 01:15 PM
Oh, and here's a question: if they always had that piece of the All-Spark, why did they never revive Jazz?

Andrew j
06-28-2009, 01:15 PM
I thought they were horrible when I saw the movie but this thread has made them the best part of the movie for me.

Which, to be fair, still isn't saying much.

Magnum V.I.
06-28-2009, 01:16 PM
Oh, and here's a question: if they always had that piece of the All-Spark, why did they never revive Jazz?

Because he was black.

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-28-2009, 01:16 PM
oh and about the stereotypes.
even lies base themselves within truth.

Thank you for adding that. That's great.

McGill
06-28-2009, 01:17 PM
haha this whole movie is a huge ploy to make cash. there is nothing more to it.

someone needs to blast a huge review on this of why you should watch it once on HBO in a year and be done with it.

ZombieSpeedball
06-28-2009, 01:18 PM
Because he was black.

Okay, yes, Jazz was in fact literally black. Or silver. Or whatever. But the point is, this goes to show that Optimus is a total prick. Or the Army is just really fucking paranoid about who uses that shit.

ZombieSpeedball
06-28-2009, 01:19 PM
haha this whole movie is a huge ploy to make cash. there is nothing more to it.

someone needs to blast a huge review on this of why you should watch it once on HBO in a year and be done with it.

I swear, you must be someone who was previously on this board under another name. :)

Magnum V.I.
06-28-2009, 01:20 PM
Okay, yes, Jazz was in fact literally black. Or silver. Or whatever. But the point is, this goes to show that Optimus is a total prick. Or the Army is just really fucking paranoid about who uses that shit.

No, The transformers are racist. That's why they didn't revive Jazz.


But who needs Winston Zeddmore anyway?

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-28-2009, 01:20 PM
I think they were gangster stereotypes. I don't think they were racist. From the article:



Does anyone want to argue with the black voice actor that co-created them that they were racist black stereotypes? How about the other voice actor who is as white as they come?

Jazz spoke ebonics and was breakdancing in the first one, with the same built-in story reason for doing so, and I don't remember this kind of uproar then. If they were southern slack-jawed yokel stereotypes, would anyone be giving a shit then? I suspect the reason they went in this direction is that gangster culture still sells, particularly to teenagers. Bay put these characters in the movie to appeal to them, and the kids in the theaters I saw it with enjoyed the hell out of them.

Hey, I wasn't thrilled with Jazz either. Nobody other than Scatman Crothers was gonna do it for me. ;)

I would ask now what the difference between "gangster" and "thug" is considering that is what the motivation for the actors was...but I'm afraid someone would tell me. :scared:

GrandeMaestro Fünke
06-28-2009, 01:20 PM
I'm betting you could find racism in Mr. Rogers. That's how stupid this is.

I'm sure Michael Bay wasn't saying "Hey! let's make fun of blacks!"
It was probably more along the lines of "You Know what would be funny? Two cars that act like the teens in Waiting."

Oh and please tell me when a line about standing under an alien scrotum, or a mom eating hash brownies, or a line about a chick humping a neck like a mountain ox, isn't purposely trying to be funny?

Yes, Bay probably didn't think that. Subconscious racism is just as bad as a conscious decision.

That being said I thought Jazz in the first movie was a lot worse, but I don't think either was he or Skids was really racist.


Oh, and here's a question: if they always had that piece of the All-Spark, why did they never revive Jazz?

Yeah that occured to me when I was watching the movie too.

Thommy Melanson
06-28-2009, 01:21 PM
...this goes to show that Optimus is a total prick...

Optimus Prick is the coolest porn name ever.

Gene Reginato
06-28-2009, 01:21 PM
Whoa, wait, this grabbed my attention.

Yeah, this kind of attitude is what keeps racism alive.

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-28-2009, 01:21 PM
Kids liked the crows in Dumbo too.

I saw Dumbo like one time when I was a kid and never again. I don't remember much about it at all. I know there were crows, but that's all. Is that thing in the Disney vault or is it out there to be seen?

GrandeMaestro Fünke
06-28-2009, 01:22 PM
Okay, yes, Jazz was in fact literally black. Or silver. Or whatever. But the point is, this goes to show that Optimus is a total prick. Or the Army is just really fucking paranoid about who uses that shit.

Wasn't there some point in the first movie Jazz made a line that suggested he was black? Or am I misremembering?

Will
06-28-2009, 01:22 PM
I was talking with a friend last night about them and about Orci and Kurtzman's vague comment about that's not how we meant the characters to be. A lot of their dialogue and actions -- if the jive talk and look of the characters were removed -- would cast them more as younger almost teenage robots.

The squabbling, the bravado, the insults, even the fact that they can't read Cybertronian. I think if the characters had been played like that (and obviously who knows if that's how they were meant to be) they would have been a whole lot more interesting in the film, especially since their fight with Devastator would have been when the two younger bots grow up.

Obviously all speculation, but I'd really like to know what was the original intent of the characters.I think that would have been much better of an idea than what we got.

I found the characters to be really annoying with little to no endearing qualities about them save for when they fought devastator because they were in a "David and Goliath" situation but even then we never got to see what became of them when everything ended.

The ebonics and gold tooth things are especially stereotypical and added nothing to their squabbling twin dynamic. I don't know though, since I saw this with my girlfriend and her son they didn't seem to mind but I'd like a chance to see this on DVD and perhaps see if upon repeat viewings Skids and Mudflaps portrayals get any better or any worse.

ZombieSpeedball
06-28-2009, 01:22 PM
I saw Dumbo like one time when I was a kid and never again. I don't remember much about it at all. I know there were crows, but that's all. Is that thing in the Disney vault or is it out there to be seen?

There's so much locked away in the Disney Vault it's hard to tell. Take a left at Walt Disney's bones, it might be underneath "Song of the South".

Treacle
06-28-2009, 01:22 PM
oh and about the stereotypes.
even lies base themselves within truth.

No.

Stereotypes make assumptions about the way people are based on the way people look. It's on oversimplification based upon the illusory correlation that members of groups who share one or two characteristics, must therefore share every characteristic.

If anything, I would consider that the antithesis of truth.

Girlfriend In A Coma
06-28-2009, 01:23 PM
Oh, and here's a question: if they always had that piece of the All-Spark, why did they never revive Jazz?



Because if Jazz isn't Scatman Crothers it is blasphemy. BLASPHEMY!
Or...yet another forgotten plothole.

RIP Scatman. :(

ZombieSpeedball
06-28-2009, 01:23 PM
Wasn't there some point in the first movie Jazz made a line that suggested he was black? Or am I misremembering?

That could be. But Jazz had, like, two fucking lines in the whole movie.

Xander Boune
06-28-2009, 01:24 PM
Okay, yes, Jazz was in fact literally black. Or silver. Or whatever. But the point is, this goes to show that Optimus is a total prick. Or the Army is just really fucking paranoid about who uses that shit.

It's possible that they didn't know that the All Spark fragments could still be functional. It's possible that the Army took it out of their hands before they even considered using it. Maybe you still need a living spark to revive someone (the Decepticons completely ripped apart a Constructicon to give life back to Megatron). Maybe it's against Autobot morality to use the All Spark in that way. Maybe I deserve a Transformers No Prize. Or maybe a $100 Supreme class Devastator toy for my troubles.

ZombieSpeedball
06-28-2009, 01:27 PM
Yeah, this kind of attitude is what keeps racism alive.

Mine or his? Because I think his was the bad one.

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-28-2009, 01:29 PM
I really enjoyed the movie, which arguably used more actual continuity than the first one. So did my brother and everyone I saw it with, and it got applause at the end both times. It seems like people on this board are more or less evenly divided on it. Sorry it was not your cup of tea, but I'm not interested in debating the merits of the movie here. I just don't think Skids and Mudflap were racist.

Maybe racist isn't the word here though. Nobody is suggesting that Bay or the writers or the animators or the guy who makes the sandwiches at the lunch cart, nobody involved anywhere in the making of the movie maliciously and deliberately sought to do something...insensitive to the modern world.

I think it was maybe a case of a series of things coming together that for whatever reason nobody anywhere said..."hold on a second...I think maybe we outta rethink this one part here." And there is a big difference in doing something on purpose and maybe not thinking about how others might feel. Universally. Because clearly they were thinking about universal appeal with Megan Fox spread out all over the place, and the big explosions, and the guns, and the cussing robots. I'm sure they thought they were hitting all the right beats across the board.

We've all heard the stories of the fraternities or yearbook classes that will do something that upon reflection maybe they shouldn't have done because whether it is or not, it looks to people other than themselves to be off. I don't think its malicious, I think its just not thinking too many steps ahead.

bartleby
06-28-2009, 01:31 PM
Maybe racist isn't the word here though.

Probably should be "reinforcing negative stereotypes."

ZombieSpeedball
06-28-2009, 01:33 PM
We'll be having a similar discussion for Transformers 3 when they make an extremely effeminate male autobot and Perez Hilton gets all up in arms about it.

Because Michael Bay loves a gimmick.

Will
06-28-2009, 01:33 PM
It's possible that they didn't know that the All Spark fragments could still be functional. It's possible that the Army took it out of their hands before they even considered using it. Maybe you still need a living spark to revive someone (the Decepticons completely ripped apart a Constructicon to give life back to Megatron). Maybe it's against Autobot morality to use the All Spark in that way. Maybe I deserve a Transformers No Prize. Or maybe a $100 Supreme class Devastator toy for my troubles.
I was really hoping to see Jazz back and when I first heard the film's title I was under the assumption that the dead would rise rather than something that was so literal.

Maybe we can look forward to seeing him back in action at some point but I'm really disappointed that a lot of these cool robot characters were given the short end of the characterization and development stick. Especially when it comes to Jazz and in RotF the other autobots like Sideswipe, Ratchet, Bumblebee, etc.

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-28-2009, 01:34 PM
Yeah, this kind of attitude is what keeps racism alive.

I think the term racism gets tossed around a lot in this world, but I wonder if we really understand what the term means and its applications in everyday life.


This is absolutely killing me. I just want to talk about comics. Or the Transformers cartoon. I just don't like to talk about real issues. Not in real life and not even on the internet. Because minds are hard to change and in ways everyone's opinions are valid based upon their experience and their reality.

Worst part is that I have to see it again in an hour because a friend who I didn't expect to see today is expecting me to see it with her. I guess it'll give me a chance to see what her reaction is though (with no prompting from me of course).

Magnum V.I.
06-28-2009, 01:35 PM
We'll be having a similar discussion for Transformers 3 when they make an extremely effeminate male autobot and Perez Hilton gets all up in arms about it.

Because Michael Bay loves a gimmick.

The gay transformer will totally be a miata.

ZombieSpeedball
06-28-2009, 01:35 PM
I think the term racism gets tossed around a lot in this world, but I wonder if we really understand what the term means and its applications in everyday life.


This is absolutely killing me. I just want to talk about comics. Or the Transformers cartoon. I just don't like to talk about real issues. Not in real life and not even on the internet. Because minds are hard to change and in ways everyone's opinions are valid based upon their experience and their reality.

Worst part is that I have to see it again in an hour because a friend who I didn't expect to see today is expecting me to see it with her. I guess it'll give me a chance to see what her reaction is though (with no prompting from me of course).

Then I ask again: why didn't they bring back Jazz?

Magnum V.I.
06-28-2009, 01:36 PM
Then I ask again: why didn't they bring back Jazz?

:mad: Because he was Black!!

ZombieSpeedball
06-28-2009, 01:36 PM
The gay transformer will totally be a miata.

You know what I've thought would be cool? A scene where a guy's pacemaker turns into a transformer and just bursts right out of his chest.

Treacle
06-28-2009, 01:37 PM
This is absolutely killing me. I just want to talk about comics. Or the Transformers cartoon. I just don't like to talk about real issues. Not in real life and not even on the internet. Because minds are hard to change and in ways everyone's opinions are valid based upon their experience and their reality.

If it helps, I really appreciate you contributing to this thread.

ZombieSpeedball
06-28-2009, 01:37 PM
:mad: Because he was Black!!

Not good enough! I demand answers!

Magnum V.I.
06-28-2009, 01:39 PM
You know what I've thought would be cool? A scene where a guy's pacemaker turns into a transformer and just bursts right out of his chest.

Aliens Did it! Aliens Did it!


Not good enough! I demand answers!

:mad: That is an answer! A racist answer!!

Petey Parker
06-28-2009, 01:40 PM
Not good enough! I demand answers!

He stole Bumblebee's hubcaps.

ZombieSpeedball
06-28-2009, 01:41 PM
He stole Bumblebee's hubcaps.

Oh that is just... terribly comedic.

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-28-2009, 01:42 PM
No.

Stereotypes make assumptions about the way people are based on the way people look. It's on oversimplification based upon the illusory correlation that members of groups who share one or two characteristics, must therefore share every characteristic.

If anything, I would consider that the antithesis of truth.
I don't have cable and I was watching tv with my friend at the hotel Sunday morning. It was some show that she was familiar with where people who were moving changed up the place that belonged to the person moving into their place and later they compared notes on the changes.

This episode took place in Harlem and the three participants were all black professionals, wealthy, their taste was debatable of course. While all different in age, background, and lifestyle, these people were all successful in their fields and professional persons of means. I'm not but 32 years old, but I looked at my friend and told her that I had never seen anything like that before on television. As far as reality shows. There was nothing stereotypical, nothing negative that would not be considered to be universal to any group. It was strange and a bit of a revelation to me that I'm still working out internally.

The media has done and actively continues to do a terrible thing to our world in this way. My ex's parents live in the midwest and before they met me the only thing they thought they could expect from me was whatever television and movies told them that I was going to be. I proved them wrong and they did like me. They still didn't like the idea of me dating their daughter though, but I would hope that they saw that ultimately people are people despite expectations.

ZombieSpeedball
06-28-2009, 01:42 PM
I bet the next embarassing scene for Sam in Transformers will be his fleshlight turning into a Decepticon.

ZombieSpeedball
06-28-2009, 01:45 PM
I proved them wrong and they did like me. They still didn't like the idea of me dating their daughter though, but I would hope that they saw that ultimately people are people despite expectations.

That... is pretty fucked up. I'm sorry to hear that.

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-28-2009, 01:45 PM
It's possible that they didn't know that the All Spark fragments could still be functional. It's possible that the Army took it out of their hands before they even considered using it. Maybe you still need a living spark to revive someone (the Decepticons completely ripped apart a Constructicon to give life back to Megatron). Maybe it's against Autobot morality to use the All Spark in that way. Maybe I deserve a Transformers No Prize. Or maybe a $100 Supreme class Devastator toy for my troubles.

I do feel like one way that the movie connected to the source material is that the Autobots seldom knew what was going on. It was the Decepticons that had goals and plans. :)

Gene Reginato
06-28-2009, 01:45 PM
Mine or his? Because I think his was the bad one.

His, of course :)

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-28-2009, 01:47 PM
Then I ask again: why didn't they bring back Jazz?

I thought the guy with the blades was Jazz. Its not like they really named any names.

Maybe they forgot about him.

And the All Spark thing only makes insane killer Transformers out of mundane everyday objects, remember?

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-28-2009, 01:48 PM
If it helps, I really appreciate you contributing to this thread.

I appreciate you contributing. I was taking on water for the longest time and I really thought that maybe it was just me that saw something off with the characters.

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-28-2009, 01:50 PM
I bet the next embarassing scene for Sam in Transformers will be his fleshlight turning into a Decepticon.

Deleted scene? You just know they talked about it.

Where was Spielberg? Did he see any of this stuff before it hit theaters? His name is on this thing.

ZombieSpeedball
06-28-2009, 01:51 PM
I thought the guy with the blades was Jazz. Its not like they really named any names.

Maybe they forgot about him.

And the All Spark thing only makes insane killer Transformers out of mundane everyday objects, remember?

I thought that was ridiculous. They boasted having all sorts of new transformers in this one, and the majority of them came from that clusterfuck of a scene.

ZombieSpeedball
06-28-2009, 01:52 PM
Deleted scene? You just know they talked about it.

Where was Spielberg? Did he see any of this stuff before it hit theaters? His name is on this thing.

The way these movies are filmed I'd swear to god the camera was a goddamn decepticon.

Will
06-28-2009, 01:53 PM
I thought the guy with the blades was Jazz. Its not like they really named any names.

Maybe they forgot about him.

And the All Spark thing only makes insane killer Transformers out of mundane everyday objects, remember?
Sideswipe seemed like the next best thing to Jazz but unfortunately we only got a few lines from him. He did do stuff throughout the movie but then again a lot of them were relegated to doing just that.

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-28-2009, 01:53 PM
That... is pretty fucked up. I'm sorry to hear that.

No worries. They're honestly very nice people and I really like them too. Still, even though I'm not with their daughter anymore. And I understand. I really do. It hurt at first knowing that there was nothing I could do, but I got it sorted out internally and stopped taking it personally. Because they did like me, so it wasn't personal. It was just a thing.

Frozen Sooner
06-28-2009, 01:54 PM
I think they were gangster stereotypes. I don't think they were racist. From the article:



Does anyone want to argue with the black voice actor that co-created them that they were racist black stereotypes? How about the other voice actor who is as white as they come?

Jazz spoke ebonics and was breakdancing in the first one, with the same built-in story reason for doing so, and I don't remember this kind of uproar then. If they were southern slack-jawed yokel stereotypes, would anyone be giving a shit then? I suspect the reason they went in this direction is that gangster culture still sells, particularly to teenagers. Bay put these characters in the movie to appeal to them, and the kids in the theaters I saw it with enjoyed the hell out of them.

When Ted Danson put on blackface and put on a show for the benefit of his black girlfriend he didn't intend for it to be racist. Unthinking racism does exist.

The performers in minstrel shows were black. Doesn't mean the minstrel shows themselves didn't reinforce negative stereotypes about blacks.

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-28-2009, 01:58 PM
Sideswipe seemed like the next best thing to Jazz but unfortunately we only got a few lines from him.

The endearing factor that makes Transformers a property that has endured consistently since 1983 or whatever is the time put into personalities and characteristics. Thundercracker, Skywarp, and Starscream are all the same toy made in three different colors, but I could go on and on about how they're completely different.

I can't do that for anyone in Bayformers. Couldn't tell ya how Ironhide is different from Ratchet. Or name any Decepticons other than Megatron (who shouldn't have a boss) or Starscream or Devastator.

And as much as Peter Cullen was against the violence in the original cartoon, he sure did lend his voice to an Optimus Prime who executed a defeated opponent in the first ten minutes of the movie.

Weird how details like that make me more upset than this thing with Skids and Mudflap. :lol:

Xander Boune
06-28-2009, 02:08 PM
When Ted Danson put on blackface and put on a show for the benefit of his black girlfriend he didn't intend for it to be racist. Unthinking racism does exist.

The performers in minstrel shows were black. Doesn't mean the minstrel shows themselves didn't reinforce negative stereotypes about blacks.

I'd argue that the robots are only racist if you presume that gangster persona and language are stereotypical of black people. The voice actors clearly do not, and Wilson even says that it's not fair to assume that the characters are "black." How would you address his comments directly?

Will
06-28-2009, 02:25 PM
The endearing factor that makes Transformers a property that has endured consistently since 1983 or whatever is the time put into personalities and characteristics. Thundercracker, Skywarp, and Starscream are all the same toy made in three different colors, but I could go on and on about how they're completely different.

I can't do that for anyone in Bayformers. Couldn't tell ya how Ironhide is different from Ratchet. Or name any Decepticons other than Megatron (who shouldn't have a boss) or Starscream or Devastator.

And as much as Peter Cullen was against the violence in the original cartoon, he sure did lend his voice to an Optimus Prime who executed a defeated opponent in the first ten minutes of the movie.

Weird how details like that make me more upset than this thing with Skids and Mudflap. :lol:
I think personality is where the first Transformers move shined more actually although not neccessarily across the board such as when you stated the problems between differentiating Ironhide to Ratchet (Ironhide seems more combative though).

Bumblebee's relationship with Sam was much more humanized and well realized than here where I thought Sam was more of a dick to Bumblebee and the Transformers in some respects. On the other hand, the villains got more of the lion's share of development and were closer to their actual selves with Megatron, Starscream, the Fallen, and Soundwave but I did enjoy the way Jetfire was uniquely portrayed compared to his usual self.

But Skids and Mudflap were unfortunately given more spotlight that could have been better reserved for other autobots or could have done without such a silly and inappropriate angle.

J. R. Scherer
06-28-2009, 02:53 PM
Yeah, this kind of attitude is what keeps racism alive.

Another thing keeping racism alive are people that walking talking breathing stereotypes themselves. I work in customer service and get to deal with all kinds of people all day long and am amazed by how so many I encounter that absolutely embody these negative racial stereotypes.

J. R. Scherer
06-28-2009, 03:19 PM
And the All Spark thing only makes insane killer Transformers out of mundane everyday objects, remember?
They use it to resurrect Megatron, though. Does that mean it's not really Megatron's fault that he's insane and evil?


The way these movies are filmed I'd swear to god the camera was a goddamn decepticon.
The camera work is insane in this. Two people standing on the sidewalk having a fairly normal conversation and the camera is wildly swirling around them. Why?


And as much as Peter Cullen was against the violence in the original cartoon, he sure did lend his voice to an Optimus Prime who executed a defeated opponent in the first ten minutes of the movie.
I agree. I can accept Optimus killing in combat, but to cold-bloodedly murder that giant Decepticon in that opening sequence seemed extremely out of character. Cullen is there because he knows that if he doesn't do it that he can be very easily replaced, ala Frank Welker.

bartleby
06-28-2009, 03:30 PM
I'd argue that the robots are only racist if you presume that gangster persona and language are stereotypical of black people.

Those traits are not stereotypical of black people, but they are stereotypical of black stereotypes.




The voice actors clearly do not, and Wilson even says that it's not fair to assume that the characters are "black." How would you address his comments directly?

What else are they supposed to say? Yup, guilty as charged? I don't think they intended to do something that would be perceived as racist, but it's in their own best interests not to admit that they've even accidentally contributed to the presentation of a negative stereotype.

Frozen Sooner
06-28-2009, 03:41 PM
I'd argue that the robots are only racist if you presume that gangster persona and language are stereotypical of black people. The voice actors clearly do not, and Wilson even says that it's not fair to assume that the characters are "black." How would you address his comments directly?

I would address them by stating that perpetuating a stereotype commonly associated with people of a certain race then claiming that the problem is with how people are perceiving that stereotype is disingenuous at best and projection at worst.

If they had presented an Autobot wearing a coolie hat doing laundry, then said "Oh, the problem is that you associate coolie hats and laundry with Chinese immigrants. Plenty of people of all races wear coolie hats and do laundry," they'd be making the same argument. Or if they'd presented a Decepticon with long sidelocks spouting Yiddish phrases and counting money all the time-which, in fact, Lucas did (without the Yiddish.)

I'm not disputing that there's plenty of people of all races who put on a gangster act. However, to claim that acting gangster isn't something associated with African-americans in the minds of most movie-goers defies credulity.

Xander Boune
06-28-2009, 04:12 PM
I would address them by stating that perpetuating a stereotype commonly associated with people of a certain race then claiming that the problem is with how people are perceiving that stereotype is disingenuous at best and projection at worst.

If they had presented an Autobot wearing a coolie hat doing laundry, then said "Oh, the problem is that you associate coolie hats and laundry with Chinese immigrants. Plenty of people of all races wear coolie hats and do laundry," they'd be making the same argument. Or if they'd presented a Decepticon with long sidelocks spouting Yiddish phrases and counting money all the time-which, in fact, Lucas did (without the Yiddish.)

I'm not disputing that there's plenty of people of all races who put on a gangster act. However, to claim that acting gangster isn't something associated with African-americans in the minds of most movie-goers defies credulity.

Fair enough, I think that you and Bartleby make a very good case. I'll probably have more to say on this when I have some free time tomorrow.

King of Mars
06-28-2009, 05:11 PM
Are these Transformers really any more stereotypical, or offensive, than some of the depictions of craaaaaaa-zee African-Americans we see in certain "black" comedies?

Chuuie
06-28-2009, 06:58 PM
Any argument that the twin are not "black", nyerhe, lets be honest here. Totaly race-based characters.
However, I cant help but not feel entirly sympathetic, because the culture represented by the characters is a culture that is not only defined by the race, but much of the race defines itself by that culture, if that makes any sense? In fact, non-members of the race are often parodied and mocked for attempts to join the subculture. I see it more as the tables being turned back at that exclusivity... these 'black' robots are not even remotely like Little Black Sambo. Not every 'black' robot is going to be a badass mutha like Jazz (and badass muthas seem to be the only 'black' arhetypal character who does NOT get flak, and lets be honest, the 'black badass mutha' is another classic racial typecast)
Then again, im pretty laid back regarding race... i see it as something to celebrate and laugh at the differences between each other. I take very little of it personally, (I take vegitarian and fat jokes like a champ, too) and I take everything in the spirit in which it is offered, and I think the Transformers robots are not meant in a malicious way.

However, I cant help but wonder if there was an outcry over the Pixar movie Cars's character Ramone, who had a latino accent was was a ricer (or however you spell that), and if he was considered a racial caracture? (there might have been, I dont know, because I didn't see Cars until it had been out forever lol)

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-28-2009, 07:06 PM
I think personality is where the first Transformers move shined more actually although not neccessarily across the board such as when you stated the problems between differentiating Ironhide to Ratchet (Ironhide seems more combative though).

Bumblebee's relationship with Sam was much more humanized and well realized than here where I thought Sam was more of a dick to Bumblebee and the Transformers in some respects. On the other hand, the villains got more of the lion's share of development and were closer to their actual selves with Megatron, Starscream, the Fallen, and Soundwave but I did enjoy the way Jetfire was uniquely portrayed compared to his usual self.

But Skids and Mudflap were unfortunately given more spotlight that could have been better reserved for other autobots or could have done without such a silly and inappropriate angle.

Right now after seeing it a second time, my main concern is that because Skids and Mudflap got so much screen time, I don't know anything about Sideswipe, the Arcee Twins (even though there were three of them they were called twins), and whoever the Autobot with the electric powers was. I don't even know who that was.

Also Jetfire got a lot of screen time basically narrating information that the audience kind of needed to progress. The whole history of the movie Transformers is choppy to me. Do they know what their history is or don't they? Wheelie recognizes ancient writing, but the twin robots can't read anything? Wheelie and Jetfire kinda took me out of the movie because they had really convenient information because the script said so.

And Megatron having a master was problematic for me as well as the continued destructiveness of the Autobots. Talk about bulls in the chinashop. If its a well manicured yard, they tip-toe. If its a populated city its fire at will!

So, while I'm glad we've had this debate I'm back to strongly disliking the Bayformers and am not worried about Skids and Mudflap. I hope that the next director can cobble something more digestible out of what these two movies put out there.

Chuuie
06-28-2009, 07:11 PM
Right now after seeing it a second time, my main concern is that because Skids and Mudflap got so much screen time, I don't know anything about Sideswipe, the Arcee Twins (even though there were three of them they were called twins), and whoever the Autobot with the electric powers was. I don't even know who that was.

Also Jetfire got a lot of screen time basically narrating information that the audience kind of needed to progress. The whole history of the movie Transformers is choppy to me. Do they know what their history is or don't they? Wheelie recognizes ancient writing, but the twin robots can't read anything? Wheelie and Jetfire kinda took me out of the movie because they had really convenient information because the script said so.

And Megatron having a master was problematic for me as well as the continued destructiveness of the Autobots. Talk about bulls in the chinashop. If its a well manicured yard, they tip-toe. If its a populated city its fire at will!

So, while I'm glad we've had this debate I'm back to strongly disliking the Bayformers and am not worried about Skids and Mudflap. I hope that the next director can cobble something more digestible out of what these two movies put out there.

According to my Megan-Fox-lusting bf who is into this sort of stuff, he said that he asked some writers to come upwith some stuff right before the writers strike, then DURING the stike, produiced all the specacular fight scenes, then AFTER the strike ended, came back and told them "Make a story so all these fights make some shred of sense"... and we got Transformers 2.
Now if thats just yet another geek blowing smoke and pretending to know what the hell hes talking about, or if its fact, I dont know... but I like it as explaination for the weak storytelling >.< Then again, I was a little young to fully enjoy the cartoon series/toys, so I was not wronged in the way I know fans that are just a few years older than me are. D

Petey Parker
06-28-2009, 08:07 PM
The camera work is insane in this. Two people standing on the sidewalk having a fairly normal conversation and the camera is wildly swirling around them. Why?


Believe it or not that's more or less a Director Trademark for Bay. Its definitely in Bad Boys (I believe after the part when the bad guy almost runs over Martin Lawrence) and The Rock (after the car chase scene in San Francisco) I've seen those two films many times so I remember them. He probably has it at some point in his other films as well, but I don't remember them well enough.

Treacle
06-28-2009, 09:28 PM
However, I cant help but not feel entirly sympathetic, because the culture represented by the characters is a culture that is not only defined by the race, but much of the race defines itself by that culture, if that makes any sense?

It only makes sense if everything you "know" about black people is something you learned from TV.

Which is really just another way of saying, "No. You're wrong."

Ashwin Pande
06-28-2009, 09:32 PM
Show me the money!

King of Mars
06-28-2009, 10:26 PM
It only makes sense if everything you "know" about black people is something you learned from TV.

Which is really just another way of saying, "No. You're wrong."Sadly, we're at a point in time in this country where most people pull their self-image from models that have been popularized by the media and the world of entertainment...and black people are a part of that. Sure, Hollywood and the media perpetuate a lot of unflattering stereotypes, but they're able to do that only because a lot of people buy into it. You think TPTB in the entertainment industry would be cramming stereotypical, urban/gangsta culture down our throats if most black people felt it was a terribly egregious misrepresentation? The truth is, many black people have bought into that as an accurate representation of their culture, and some of them do try to fit the "ideal" it establishes. I think you're kidding yourself if you say otherwise.

Marcdachamp
06-28-2009, 10:28 PM
Hey, I wasn't thrilled with Jazz either. Nobody other than Scatman Crothers was gonna do it for me. ;)

I would ask now what the difference between "gangster" and "thug" is considering that is what the motivation for the actors was...but I'm afraid someone would tell me. :scared:

I love, love, LOVE Crothers, but I think the guy in Transformers Animated was at least as good. I had to cave and buy the toy, because I friggin' loved him way too much.

Jason California
06-28-2009, 10:36 PM
They don't compare to Soul Plane and that used real black people.

bartleby
06-29-2009, 03:12 AM
They don't compare to Soul Plane and that used real black people.

Sorry, but being better than SOUL PLANE doesn't excuses any movie of any issue.

costello
06-29-2009, 03:22 AM
I didn't think Jar Jar was anything more than an annoyance.

Ashwin Pande
06-29-2009, 03:37 AM
I didn't find Jar-Jar racist as a kid. Just... retarded and an insult to my intelligence.

Xander Boune
06-29-2009, 04:57 AM
Those traits are not stereotypical of black people, but they are stereotypical of black stereotypes.

What else are they supposed to say? Yup, guilty as charged? I don't think they intended to do something that would be perceived as racist, but it's in their own best interests not to admit that they've even accidentally contributed to the presentation of a negative stereotype.

Since the creators didn't think race played a role in creation of the characters, I don't think their intent was racist. And since there is a perfectly acceptable reason for their behavior (robots learning our culture through the internet), there isn't anything concrete that makes them any particular race. One is voiced by a white actor. Maybe I have blinders on because I love the movie and want to defend it (definitely a possiblity), but I personally don't see anything that makes the characters specifically black. I'm not entirely sold on Frozen's physical examples (collie hat/sidelongs), because the closest thing here was a gold tooth, which is only indicative of a wannabe gangster stereotype (which may have originally been exclusive to black culture, but I think has since outgrown any particular race).

I think if these characters were the only depiction of "black" people/culture in the series, the criticism would be more valid. But the movies also had Tyrese Gibson, Anthony Anderson and Bernie Mac, all playing completely different characters free of the gangster stereotype. And for all their bickering and annoyance, Mudflap and Skids themselves were redeemed by heroism in the end. They were intended to entertain and be marketable, and I don't think they were intended to secretly enforce stereotypes about black people. But if that's what they are actually doing, and they're offending a great number of black people, I'm more than happy to admit that I was wrong.

bartleby
06-29-2009, 05:02 AM
because the closest thing here was a gold tooth, which is only indicative of a wannabe gangster stereotype (which may have originally been exclusive to black culture, but I think has since outgrown any particular race)

This is where I think you're wrong. There's a pretty big gap in the white gangster stereotype and the black gangster stereotype, and I'm not seeing a lot of gold teeth in representations of the former.

Xander Boune
06-29-2009, 05:10 AM
This is where I think you're wrong. There's a pretty big gap in the white gangster stereotype and the black gangster stereotype, and I'm not seeing a lot of gold teeth in representations of the former.

Interestingly, Skids (the one with the gold tooth) is voiced by the white guy. But I'll concede the point regarding prevalence of gold teeth.

bartleby
06-29-2009, 05:15 AM
Interestingly, Skids (the one with the gold tooth) is voiced by the white guy. But I'll concede the point regarding prevalence of gold teeth.

He's a voice actor though. Does it matter what color his skin actually is if he's using a voice that doesn't sound stereotypically white?

Xander Boune
06-29-2009, 05:39 AM
He's a voice actor though. Does it matter what color his skin actually is if he's using a voice that doesn't sound stereotypically white?

I don't know, was Skid's voice stereotypically black? He was speaking in gangster/hood slang, beyond that I don't know how I would classify his intonation or voice. I agree with others earlier in the thread that think the slang is stereotypically hood, not necessarily black.

It looks like we'll be going around in circles regarding this particular point: I think the characters were stereotypes of wannabe gangsters, I don't think they were intended to be caricatures of black people. I respect your and Frozen's opinion that the majority of the audience would associate that behavior as a negative stereotype associated with black culture, because that is where the gangster persona indeed originated. I don't think that hood/gangster speak are still exclusive to black culture and have seen much to the contrary in my life. I can see how some people would think they are offensive. I am not offended by them and don't think they were intended to be offensive.

bartleby
06-29-2009, 05:47 AM
I respect your and Frozen's opinion that the majority of the audience would associate that behavior as a negative stereotype associated with black culture, because that is where the gangster persona indeed originated. I don't think that hood/gangster speak are still exclusive to black culture and have seen much to the contrary in my life.

And this is the basic concept of stereotypes. A stereotype doesn't accurate depict every member of a group of people, and it's not exclusive to that group either. The danger of stereotypes is that it presents this image as the way the world actually is, and that has a subtle but not nonexistent influence on the audience.

Xander Boune
06-29-2009, 06:13 AM
And this is the basic concept of stereotypes. A stereotype doesn't accurate depict every member of a group of people, and it's not exclusive to that group either. The danger of stereotypes is that it presents this image as the way the world actually is, and that has a subtle but not nonexistent influence on the audience.

Just so I'm clear, the danger here is that children will make the jump that the red and green robots are black people, projecting a subtle vibe that black people are wannabe gangsters, when the actual black actor who gets screen time is a military action hero? Maybe it's happening, but like I said earlier I think the argument would be stronger if the series didn't provide counter examples of actual black characters that didn't fit any of those stereotypes. Either way, I said my piece on this... it will be interesting to see if comedy characters in previous and future movies that resemble hood stereotypes will receive this kind of backlash.

Chuuie
06-29-2009, 07:52 AM
It only makes sense if everything you "know" about black people is something you learned from TV.


and where do you think most people (of all races) get their cues on how to behave (based on race, gender, any social role)? Sadly, TV, which has become a major resource for rearing and educating themselves and their children. (especially for lower income households that cant always afford child care, but thats a whole different can of worms hehe)
But the the IS a racially defined subcultre... what is the 'B' in BET? And who is the 'us' being referred to by the brand FUBU? What makes Vanilla Ice and Eminmen so easy to target for ridicule? What was Malibu's Most Wanted about? There used to be an "urban" fashion store in my local mall, and once foolhardily went into it, and you could almost hear a record scratching to a halt as everyone looked at me, startled, wondering what I was thinking entering their store like that. :D

In no way, shape, or form am I saying that all African Americans fall into this subculure, but it IS a subcultre that defines itself by its predominant race, and much of the race defines itself by belonging to this subculture.

I think they were just making fun of a subculture, which happens to be predominately black. Just because its primarily black, it should not be off-limits, becasue I think that in itself would be a little racist and would be doing a disservice to the community it not teasing, by making it somehow sacred and above reproach. You dont see the geek community up in arms about its poor portayal in the movie with the roomate and the deli dude who lives with his mom.
Not all geeks live with their parents, no, not at all... "Hey mom! MOM! Make me a pizza for lunch!!!" :D

Kirblar
06-29-2009, 07:56 AM
and where do you think most people (of all races) get their cues on how to behave (based on race, gender, any social role)? Sadly, TV, which has become a major resource for rearing and educating themselves and their children. (especially for lower income households that cant always afford child care, but thats a whole different can of worms hehe)
But the the IS a racially defined subcultre... what is the 'B' in BET? And who is the 'us' being referred to by the brand FUBU? What makes Vanilla Ice and Eminmen so easy to target for ridicule? What was Malibu's Most Wanted about? There used to be an "urban" fashion store in my local mall, and once foolhardily went into it, and you could almost hear a record scratching to a halt as everyone looked at me, startled, wondering what I was thinking entering their store like that. :D

In no way, shape, or form am I saying that all African Americans fall into this subculure, but it IS a subcultre that defines itself by its predominant race, and much of the race defines itself by belonging to this subculture.

I think they were just making fun of a subculture, which happens to be predominately black. Just because its primarily black, it should not be off-limits, becasue I think that in itself would be a little racist and would be doing a disservice to the community it not teasing, by making it somehow sacred and above reproach. You dont see the geek community up in arms about its poor portayal in the movie with the roomate and the deli dude who lives with his mom.
Not all geeks live with their parents, no, not at all... "Hey mom! MOM! Make me a pizza for lunch!!!" :D
But is Transformers the appropriate venue for that type of humor? I think not.

The Human Target
06-29-2009, 10:27 AM
I don't care if some people think its not racist.

I care if people thought it was funny.

It was anti-comedy.

Cth
06-29-2009, 10:29 AM
I can't wait to hear the threads about G-Force when it hits :)

Jason California
06-29-2009, 10:34 AM
Sorry, but being better than SOUL PLANE doesn't excuses any movie of any issue.


Was there a big fuss by the black establishment about the stereo types that real black people were perpetuating? I heard some but it was nothing big. I am not going to be to concerned by robots that are characterized by a urban/ghetto sub culture when I see the real thing keeping this going all on their own.

When black people want to jump on other black people for perpetuating these "myths" just as much as they will do it for non blacks I will take it more seriously.

Frozen Sooner
06-29-2009, 10:43 AM
As it happens, several critics denounced Soul Plane as the worst sort of minstrelism. I'm sure you know how to use Google, check it out.

bartleby
06-29-2009, 10:45 AM
Was there a big fuss by the black establishment about the stereo types that real black people were perpetuating? I heard some but it was nothing big. I am not going to be to concerned by robots that are characterized by a urban/ghetto sub culture when I see the real thing keeping this going all on their own.

When black people want to jump on other black people for perpetuating these "myths" just as much as they will do it for non blacks I will take it more seriously.

You want to know what difference between TRANSFORMERS and SOUL PLANE is?

$187 million and counting

Jason California
06-29-2009, 10:45 AM
As it happens, several critics denounced Soul Plane as the worst sort of minstrelism. I'm sure you know how to use Google, check it out.


I said I saw something on it. I did not see a large outcry on it though.

Marcdachamp
06-29-2009, 10:51 AM
I don't care if some people think its not racist.

I care if people thought it was funny.

It was anti-comedy.

In your opinion. They got some laughs out of people.

The Human Target
06-29-2009, 11:03 AM
In your opinion. They got some laughs out of people.

Yes they did.

Those people are, in my opinion, devoid of taste and an actual sense of humor.

Chuuie
06-29-2009, 08:28 PM
I can't wait to hear the threads about G-Force when it hits :)

its gonna be AWESOME... ;) actually, OT, but a cool tidbit... next time you see a poster at the theatre for it, look at the earring in the girl guinea pig's ear... I am a professional guinea pig breeder (no joke, my caviary-what breeders call their guinea pig herds- is #2 in the nation ATM), and the earring they have in the female pigs ear is actually the very eartags that we use on our animals to identify/register them... only we place them on a diff part of the ear, but thats a real accurate tag :) only the 5 breeders in the nation will appreciate that detail, but i think its a nice touch :D

J. R. Scherer
07-01-2009, 09:07 AM
Believe it or not that's more or less a Director Trademark for Bay.

I absolutely know that. I'm very familiar with Bay's style, and there are times when it's appropriate and effective to do those sorts of shots, but in this new Transformers movie I found it to just be ridiculously overused.

J. R. Scherer
07-01-2009, 09:15 AM
Yes they did.

Those people are, in my opinion, devoid of taste and an actual sense of humor.

These people can easily be classified as the lowest common denominator.

bachman
07-01-2009, 09:17 AM
Isn't their an actual African-American human in a lead role? And isn't he:

- Competent
- Attractive
- Well-Spoken
- Smart
- And a good fighter?

Isn't this a pretty clear sign that, overall, Transformers 2 is not stereotyping african americans in a negative way?

A.Huerta
07-01-2009, 09:22 AM
Isn't their an actual African-American human in a lead role? And isn't he:

- Competent
- Attractive
- Well-Spoken
- Smart
- And a good fighter?

Isn't this a pretty clear sign that, overall, Transformers 2 is not stereotyping african americans in a negative way?

Spawn
Blade
Malcolm X
Action Jackson
Predator 2
Golden Child
Jackie Brown
ALI...

Theres not that many when I really think about it

Jason California
07-01-2009, 09:24 AM
Isn't their an actual African-American human in a lead role? And isn't he:

- Competent
- Attractive
- Well-Spoken
- Smart
- And a good fighter?

Isn't this a pretty clear sign that, overall, Transformers 2 is not stereotyping african americans in a negative way?


And you guys say Bachman never adds anything of value.

Petey Parker
07-01-2009, 09:32 AM
In your opinion. They got some laughs out of people.

Who are these imbeciles? Where are they?

http://www.supermanhomepage.com/images/chris-reeve-movies/general-zod.jpg

bartleby
07-01-2009, 09:35 AM
Isn't their an actual African-American human in a lead role? And isn't he:

- Competent
- Attractive
- Well-Spoken
- Smart
- And a good fighter?

Isn't this a pretty clear sign that, overall, Transformers 2 is not stereotyping african americans in a negative way?

So as long as I can find one good thing to say about you, it would excuse any bad thing I have to say?

Petey Parker
07-01-2009, 09:36 AM
So as long as I can find one good thing to say about you, it would excuse any bad thing I have to say?

Sounds about right.

bachman
07-01-2009, 09:59 AM
So as long as I can find one good thing to say about you, it would excuse any bad thing I have to say?

You say "excuse" as if the movie said or did something really nasty or racist, as opposed to just dumb comic relief (while again, having an actual human african american in a positive and diverse role)

And yes, if you said one negative thing about me and one positive thing about me, then I suppose they would cancel each other out, in a way.
However, you've said and implied a lot of snarky insults towards me over time, so you've got quite a few postive things to say to break even, lover.

bartleby
07-01-2009, 06:17 PM
Isn't their an actual African-American human in a lead role? And isn't he:

- Competent
- Attractive
- Well-Spoken
- Smart
- And a good fighter?

You forgot:
- Boring
- Useless

Matthew Brown
07-01-2009, 06:25 PM
You forgot:
- Boring
- Useless

Also, he just plays sidekick to the white soldier with a higher rank and better part.

bartleby
07-01-2009, 06:29 PM
Also, he just plays sidekick to the white soldier with a higher rank and better part.

Yeah, he's basically just there so that Josh Duhamel isn't talking to himself the whole time. I don't think he even fires his gun during the movie.

Khrutch
07-01-2009, 06:51 PM
I saw this article last week and didn't think it worthy to post because it is so ridiculous. Some people just have to see racism in everything I guess. I've seen the movie and the twins were acting like every rapper/hip hopper in existence regardless of color.

Kirblar
07-01-2009, 06:53 PM
I saw this article last week and didn't think it worthy to post because it is so ridiculous. Some people just have to see racism in everything I guess. I've seen the movie and the twins were acting like every rapper/hip hopper in existence regardless of color.
http://abagond.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/omarosa.jpg

bartleby
07-01-2009, 06:54 PM
I saw this article last week and didn't think it worthy to post because it is so ridiculous.

When has a story being ridiculous kept you from posting it?

Dark Sasha
07-01-2009, 06:55 PM
Spawn
Blade
Malcolm X
Action Jackson
Predator 2
Golden Child
Jackie Brown
ALI...

Theres not that many when I really think about it

don't forget Night of the Living Dead.