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HOOKS
05-14-2009, 07:46 AM
Over the course of the last year or so I've been on this board, I noticed in just about every serious thread on politics the topic of Christianity and the Bible comes up but there has never really been an exclusive discussion on the Christian Bible and the merits and critiques of it.

So let's talk it out, hopefully with as much honesty and respect as most of the political discussions we have here.

The reason I chose the Christian faith and the Holy Bible is because with most of the board being based in America, many of us are most familiar with the scripture held within the Christian Bible. Many concerns regarding policies past and present are also coming to a head in our daily conversations which ties into scripture, and may affect our future very very soon.

For the believers: how closely do you follow the word of God as portrayed within the version of the Bible that you read? If you do not follow it word for word, what made you decide which parts to follow and which parts to ignore? Do you feel there are parts of the Bible which may be flawed and no longer apply to modern life (i.e. slavery, homosexuality, etc)? And if you do pick and choose which verses to follow, do you feel such an act blasphemies to God and Jesus Christ?

For the non-believers: are there any tenants held within that you believe in? Do you feel that the Bible is flawed because of the scripture held within or because of the practices of the Christian religion itself? Do you feel it is significant at least in the historical sense? And if you were once a believer, what made you decide to leave the faith? And would you ever return?

Shane W
05-14-2009, 07:48 AM
In before the lock!

Jim T.
05-14-2009, 07:48 AM
I haven't finished reading it yet - please mark spoilers!!! :)

Ray G.
05-14-2009, 07:49 AM
I can only speak for everything that comes before the new testament, but I look at it as a work of literature reflective of the times, and in some ways a moral guide. I attempt to live my life by the example of the best historical figures in it - primarily Moses.

I don't look at it as the absolute word of God. The timeframe gets confusing in that case. I suppose you could say the bible has some continuity problems. :)

bachman
05-14-2009, 07:49 AM
I tried to read it when I was a teenager, but I quit when it started giving multi-paged directions on how exactly to build an ark or put up a tent.

Alex(sadly)Maleev
05-14-2009, 07:50 AM
Is that your dream car in the avatar?

HOOKS
05-14-2009, 07:52 AM
In before the lock!

Considering the number of threads I've read and participated in that have included a discussion of the Bible in political (and non-political) threads, why would an exclusive discussion of this topic get locked? Do you think the board is incapable of having an honest discussion on religion?

The Dean
05-14-2009, 07:54 AM
I'd rather talk about comic books.

schizorabbit
05-14-2009, 07:56 AM
I've only read the Ultimate Bible, in which Moses is portrayed as a Will Smith type spewing one liners, and Jesus has a flaming sword and he has a kung fu sidekick named Chang.

Doc Randy
05-14-2009, 07:59 AM
Here is my favorite verse:

"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." - Jesus in telling the Parable of the Minas - Luke 19:27

HOOKS
05-14-2009, 07:59 AM
I can only speak for everything that comes before the new testament

What are you, some kind of Jew or something? :)


...I look at it as a work of literature reflective of the times, and in some ways a moral guide. I attempt to live my life by the example of the best historical figures in it - primarily Moses.

I don't look at it as the absolute word of God. The timeframe gets confusing in that case. I suppose you could say the bible has some continuity problems. :)

My issues come from the fact that there are a lot of inconsistencies and contradictions held within the Bible, yet many people still like to dissect which parts make the most sense to them and hold those ideals against others who would feel differently.

Is holding the belief that homosexuality is wrong make that person any different than someone who believes slavery is right?

Doc Randy
05-14-2009, 08:01 AM
Is that your dream car in the avatar?

I never cared for modern Bentleys.

What would Jesus drive?

Brad N.
05-14-2009, 08:02 AM
Hooks, you're a beautiful man.

schizorabbit
05-14-2009, 08:02 AM
I never cared for modern Bentleys.

What would Jesus drive?

A donkey.

Or a Ford Mustang.

Ryudo
05-14-2009, 08:03 AM
I prefer to not participate in these threads, due to not wanting to offend anyone. There are folks here who know that I am employed by my church (Office Manager), and I try to rarely curse while on the board.

I have led a less-than-ideal lifestyle, particularly in my online habits, in the past. So my faith may be a surprise to some. Let's just say that I felt I was acting incorrectly and decided to make a change. Not to mention, I decided to move away from the more... lacivious pursuits of some individuals on this board. Not that there's anything necessarily wrong with that, just that it's not for me anymore... I started dating someone, and now she is my fiancee, and to be honest that other junk is completely uninteresting to me.

That having been said, I am a member of the church of Christ. Not the Mormons (Church of Christ of Latter-Day Saints), but rather a non-denominational religious group that believes in taking nothing but the Bible and applying it to every aspect of life, including worship. Belief in baptism being essential for salvation (no "sinner's prayer" or anything like that), and no instrumental music (singing and making melody in your heart - Ephesians 5:19). So yes, I follow the Bible rather closely.

As far as the potential belief that the Bible might be flawed or unapplicable to the world today, that's not possible. God is perfect, and He wrote through the inspired writers the perfect guide to living life. I don't know where the slavery thing comes from; I know it's in there but I also know that it is not condoned in the New Testament. And as far as homosexuality, no, I don't think it's right - but it is a personal choice for individuals who choose to do that, and I respect their right to choose, and don't think of them as less of an individual in any sense. We all have free will.

Just like I respect the right of an agnostic or atheist to choose... if God wanted someone to blindly worship Him, I believe that He would have made us devoted to doing that. But that was not His goal in creating us.

HOOKS
05-14-2009, 08:05 AM
Is that your dream car in the avatar?

It's one of my business partners' cars, which I get to drive every now and then. I have a Mercedes myself, which is obviously less expensive than the Continental GT. I will be in the market for a new car very soon, though, and am deciding between the S550 and the BMW 750Li.

Alex(sadly)Maleev
05-14-2009, 08:06 AM
It's one of my business partners' cars, which I get to drive every now and then. I have a Mercedes myself, which is obviously less expensive than the Continental GT. I will be in the market for a new car very soon, though, and am deciding between the S550 and the BMW 750Li.

Watch out for the vanity sin:)

Alex(sadly)Maleev
05-14-2009, 08:07 AM
I never cared for modern Bentleys.

What would Jesus drive?

I utterly hate this car. Jesus would drive a Formula 1 of course!

Drkemerld73
05-14-2009, 08:08 AM
I tried to read it when I was a teenager, but I quit when it started giving multi-paged directions on how exactly to build an ark or put up a tent.

Shame.

My Ark of the Covenant is a great topic for conversation when I host parties.

I just get very concerned when they lift off the lid and speak Hebrew. The results are a bit messy.

Fake Pat
05-14-2009, 08:09 AM
I prefer to not participate in these threads, due to not wanting to offend anyone. There are folks here who know that I am employed by my church (Office Manager), and I try to rarely curse while on the board.

I have led a less-than-ideal lifestyle, particularly in my online habits, in the past. So my faith may be a surprise to some. Let's just say that I felt I was acting incorrectly and decided to make a change. Not to mention, I decided to move away from the more... lacivious pursuits of some individuals on this board. Not that there's anything necessarily wrong with that, just that it's not for me anymore... I started dating someone, and now she is my fiancee, and to be honest that other junk is completely uninteresting to me.

That having been said, I am a member of the church of Christ. Not the Mormons (Church of Christ of Latter-Day Saints), but rather a non-denominational religious group that believes in taking nothing but the Bible and applying it to every aspect of life, including worship. Belief in baptism being essential for salvation (no "sinner's prayer" or anything like that), and no instrumental music (singing and making melody in your heart - Ephesians 5:19). So yes, I follow the Bible rather closely.

As far as the potential belief that the Bible might be flawed or unapplicable to the world today, that's not possible. God is perfect, and He wrote through the inspired writers the perfect guide to living life. I don't know where the slavery thing comes from; I know it's in there but I also know that it is not condoned in the New Testament. And as far as homosexuality, no, I don't think it's right - but it is a personal choice for individuals who choose to do that, and I respect their right to choose, and don't think of them as less of an individual in any sense. We all have free will.

Just like I respect the right of an agnostic or atheist to choose... if God wanted someone to blindly worship Him, I believe that He would have made us devoted to doing that. But that was not His goal in creating us.

OK, then I take it you support the death penalty for:
blasphemy
sabbath breaking
pre-marital sex
beastiality
etc.

...right?

Ryudo
05-14-2009, 08:12 AM
OK, then I take it you support the death penalty for:
blasphemy
sabbath breaking
pre-marital sex
beastiality
etc.

...right?

:D

The Old Testament was established for the Jews, and there were systems in place there that God hoped would work. They didn't, which is why God sent Jesus to die for all of mankind.

The New Testament is the new law, the new commandments. The laws and tenets of the Old Testament, while helpful in some cases as lessons and testaments of faith (Job comes to mind), no longer apply.

As such, no, I don't believe in the death penalty for any of those things.

Ray G.
05-14-2009, 08:13 AM
OK, then I take it you support the death penalty for:
blasphemy
sabbath breaking
pre-marital sex
beastiality
etc.

...right?

He didn't say he supports the bible being applied to EVERYONE's life, Pat. He said his church tries to apply the bible to THEIR lives.

Doc Randy
05-14-2009, 08:14 AM
:D

The Old Testament was established for the Jews, and there were systems in place there that God hoped would work. They didn't, which is why God sent Jesus to die for all of mankind.

The New Testament is the new law, the new commandments. The laws and tenets of the Old Testament, while helpful in some cases as lessons and testaments of faith (Job comes to mind), no longer apply.

As such, no, I don't believe in the death penalty for any of those things.


So what are these new commandments? Why aren't they better enumerated? And if the old ones were all thrown out or only applied to Jews, why are some of them still considered a sin?

I am not being snarky, but it is a question that has perplexed me for decades.

Ben
05-14-2009, 08:14 AM
I tried to read it when I was a teenager, but I quit when it started giving multi-paged directions on how exactly to build an ark or put up a tent.Wasn't that Moby Dick?

Fake Pat
05-14-2009, 08:15 AM
He didn't say he supports the bible being applied to EVERYONE's life, Pat. He said his church tries to apply the bible to THEIR lives.

He said god was perfect, and was responsible for creating the perfect guide to life.

This guide includes references to capital punishment for the acts listed (and many more), with no claims that those being punished must also believe.

HOOKS
05-14-2009, 08:16 AM
Watch out for the vanity sin:)

I've never claimed to be the most modest person on the board. :) That said, I love luxury automobiles.


I prefer to not participate in these threads, due to not wanting to offend anyone. There are folks here who know that I am employed by my church (Office Manager), and I try to rarely curse while on the board.

I have led a less-than-ideal lifestyle, particularly in my online habits, in the past. So my faith may be a surprise to some. Let's just say that I felt I was acting incorrectly and decided to make a change. Not to mention, I decided to move away from the more... lacivious pursuits of some individuals on this board. Not that there's anything necessarily wrong with that, just that it's not for me anymore... I started dating someone, and now she is my fiancee, and to be honest that other junk is completely uninteresting to me.

That having been said, I am a member of the church of Christ. Not the Mormons (Church of Christ of Latter-Day Saints), but rather a non-denominational religious group that believes in taking nothing but the Bible and applying it to every aspect of life, including worship. Belief in baptism being essential for salvation (no "sinner's prayer" or anything like that), and no instrumental music (singing and making melody in your heart - Ephesians 5:19). So yes, I follow the Bible rather closely.

As far as the potential belief that the Bible might be flawed or unapplicable to the world today, that's not possible. God is perfect, and He wrote through the inspired writers the perfect guide to living life. I don't know where the slavery thing comes from; I know it's in there but I also know that it is not condoned in the New Testament. And as far as homosexuality, no, I don't think it's right - but it is a personal choice for individuals who choose to do that, and I respect their right to choose, and don't think of them as less of an individual in any sense. We all have free will.

Just like I respect the right of an agnostic or atheist to choose... if God wanted someone to blindly worship Him, I believe that He would have made us devoted to doing that. But that was not His goal in creating us.

Thank you for being absolutely honest.

My history is sort of the opposite of yours. I was raised in a Christian home, went to a Christian private school until high school, when I joined public school. Then I went to a Christian university and that is where my faith started to wain.

I began studying the historical context of Christianity, and learning about the various changes and omissions made to the Bible as it now reads. I couldn't consolidate the faith with which I was raised with the reality of history and how politics and a lack of scientific understanding had an effect on how the Bible was formed.

There's also the fact that many practitioners of Christianity ask that fellow Christians do things that are not listed in the Bible, or believe in things such as homosexuality being a sin that were supposedly negated by the New Testament, yet are willing to overlook the slavery issue.

To me, it is simple. Either God is infallible or he is not. Either the Bible is a book Christians must follow to the letter or it is a book that has historical context in regards to politics and the way we once understood the world that no longer applies to our modern society.

schizorabbit
05-14-2009, 08:16 AM
I've read the King James Version from cover to cover when I was "a believer."
I've read the Good News Bible, which is like "The Idiot's Bible." :)
I'm looking forward to The Ultimate Bible. I'm expecting more rated R stuff...and superpowers.

Anybody catch (it's on DVD now) From Jesus to Christ?
People who haven't should check it out. It's a well made and fascinating documentary that "objectively" traces the early history of Christianity, and the literature that came from it. The way theologians casually said stuff like, "We experts already know that the gospels were written waaaaay after the death of the historical figure known at Jesus..." and stuff like shocked me in that I was expecting a lot more hoopla from hardcore Christians about it. But then I realized hardcore Christians don't watch PBS. :)

I was raised and went to Christian private schools, was even elected chaplain (shocking, right? ;)), was one of those door-to-door knockers with a smile and a bible, and annoying the fuck out of anybody unlucky enough to answer the door and get my mouthful of "Do you know you're gonna go to hell?" talks... but after taking a few"non-believing" religion classes at Emory--the discrepancies, both narrative and philosophical, in the Bible were legion--and after my "apostasy"--I still consider it a cool book (aside from the "And then X begat Y" crap).

Generic Poster
05-14-2009, 08:16 AM
:D

The Old Testament was established for the Jews, and there were systems in place there that God hoped would work. They didn't, which is why God sent Jesus to die for all of mankind.

The New Testament is the new law, the new commandments. The laws and tenets of the Old Testament, while helpful in some cases as lessons and testaments of faith (Job comes to mind), no longer apply.

As such, no, I don't believe in the death penalty for any of those things.

Doesn't Jesus say something like "I come not to overturn the law of the prophets, but fulfill it"? I don't think there's any textual support for the "new covenant" point of view.

Brian Defferding
05-14-2009, 08:17 AM
Oh, I see Fake Pat noticed the thread. This will end well.

Alex(sadly)Maleev
05-14-2009, 08:18 AM
I've never claimed to be the most modest person on the board. :) That said, I love luxury automobiles.


Now that established that, we go for the big car? You wanna spend the money, you should go for a great performance car. That's what I'd prefer. Then we can talk about the other sin, envy.

WillieLee
05-14-2009, 08:18 AM
I utterly hate this car. Jesus would drive a Formula 1 of course!

With non-grooved tires.

Ryudo
05-14-2009, 08:19 AM
So what are these new commandments? Why aren't they better enumerated? And if the old ones were all thrown out or only applied to Jews, why are some of them still considered a sin?

I am not being snarky, but it is a question that has perplexed me for decades.


But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Matt 22: 34 - 40



And by the way Hooks, I grew up in the church as well (in my church), I was merely addressing my behavior on the board up until a few months ago.

Alex(sadly)Maleev
05-14-2009, 08:19 AM
With non-grooved tires.

Super softs baby.

Ben
05-14-2009, 08:19 AM
So what are these new commandments? Why aren't they better enumerated? And if the old ones were all thrown out or only applied to Jews, why are some of them still considered a sin?

I am not being snarky, but it is a question that has perplexed me for decades.And why do so many Christians insist on posting them in public buildings?

Fake Pat
05-14-2009, 08:19 AM
:D

The Old Testament was established for the Jews, and there were systems in place there that God hoped would work. They didn't, which is why God sent Jesus to die for all of mankind.

The New Testament is the new law, the new commandments. The laws and tenets of the Old Testament, while helpful in some cases as lessons and testaments of faith (Job comes to mind), no longer apply.

As such, no, I don't believe in the death penalty for any of those things.

How about cursing your parents?

Mark 7:10
Because Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and 'Whoever curses his father or mother must certainly be put to death.'

That's new testament, right?

19bernardo87
05-14-2009, 08:19 AM
I'm still waiting for the Marvel Illustrated take on it. :cool:

schizorabbit
05-14-2009, 08:20 AM
I began studying the historical context of Christianity, and learning about the various changes and omissions made to the Bible as it now reads. I couldn't consolidate the faith with which I was raised with the reality of history and how politics and a lack of scientific understanding had an effect on how the Bible was formed.



The one that sticks out now--vaguely, mind you--regards The Book of Enoch, which for a while, was considered one of the inviolate parts of the Bible (Enoch was giving a tour of the Seven Heavens and saw the Angels who fell in love with human women imprisoned and so on), but then somebody (the King James "council"???) , deemed the book false, so they edited it out of the "official Bible", even though other "existing" parts of Old Testament still quote it or refer to it verbatim.

Generic Poster
05-14-2009, 08:21 AM
The one that sticks out now--vaguely, mind you--regards The Book of Enoch, which for a while, was considered one of the inviolate parts of the Bible (Enoch was giving a tour of the Seven Heavens and saw the Angels who fell in love with human women imprisoned and so on), but then somebody (the King James "council"???) , deemed the book false, so they edited it out of the "official Bible", even though other "existing" parts of Old Testament still quote it or refer to it verbatim.

The idea of a unified "bible" is pretty new, isn't it? One of Augustine's ideas, maybe?

Doc Randy
05-14-2009, 08:22 AM
Matt 22: 34 - 40


But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”



But if those are the only two enumerated commandments (to love God and your neighbor), and all the others just apply to Jews or are now defunct, why exactly do people believe homosexuality is a sin?

Why is homosexuality carried over, but something like a kosher diet is not?

Ryudo
05-14-2009, 08:22 AM
How about cursing your parents?

Mark 7:10
Because Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and 'Whoever curses his father or mother must certainly be put to death.'

That's new testament, right?

Yes, but it's taken out of context.

Jesus is quoting the Old Testament there.

Read verses 9 through 13, and you'll see what He means by using that point.

HOOKS
05-14-2009, 08:22 AM
Now that established that, we go for the big car? You wanna spend the money, you should go for a great performance car. That's what I'd prefer.

What would you recommend?

Personally I couldn't justify spending money on a Ferrari or Lambo, unless my net worth was in the seven figures, and I am not quite there yet.


Then we can talk about the other sin, envy.

:D

Doc Randy
05-14-2009, 08:23 AM
What would you recommend?

Personally I couldn't justify spending money on a Ferrari or Lambo, unless my net worth was in the seven figures, and I am not quite there yet.

:D

BMW M-series. Probably the M3. You can't go wrong with an M3 or M5.

schizorabbit
05-14-2009, 08:23 AM
God's hardcore:

Genesis 38:8-10 (King James Version)

8And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.

9And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.

10And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.

Generic Poster
05-14-2009, 08:24 AM
But if those are the only two enumerated commandments (to love God and your neighbor), and all the others just apply to Jews or are now defunct, why exactly do people believe homosexuality is a sin?

Why is homosexuality carried over, but something like a kosher diet is not?

Plus, that doesn't seem to be overturning anything: "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets" seems to be saying that those two commandments are the "super-commandments" upon which the "old" ones are based - not that the old ones are out the window.

Ryudo
05-14-2009, 08:25 AM
But if those are the only two enumerated commandments (to love God and your neighbor), and all the others just apply to Jews or are now defunct, why exactly do people believe homosexuality is a sin?

Why is homosexuality carried over, but something like a kosher diet is not?


Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
I Corinthians 6:9-11 (NKJV)

That's the main one as far as me personally.

Fake Pat
05-14-2009, 08:26 AM
Yes, but it's taken out of context.

Jesus is quoting the Old Testament there.

Read verses 9 through 13, and you'll see what He means by using that point.

Could you go into more detail on this?

Chunky Ink
05-14-2009, 08:26 AM
I'd rather talk about comic books.


http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/9536/normalanww3cvr.jpg


;-)

Alex(sadly)Maleev
05-14-2009, 08:27 AM
What would you recommend?

Personally I couldn't justify spending money on a Ferrari or Lambo, unless my net worth was in the seven figures, and I am not quite there yet.



:D

Oh boy. My favs? Aston Martin, Porsche and BMWs. If I didnt have a family to support and lived somewhere with great curvy roads, I would have bought probably the new M3. I was considering it, but we moved back to NY.


BMW M-series. Probably the M3. You can't go wrong with an M3 or M5.

Why aren't we best friends?

Jef UK
05-14-2009, 08:27 AM
For the non-believers: are there any tenants held within that you believe in? Do you feel that the Bible is flawed because of the scripture held within or because of the practices of the Christian religion itself? Do you feel it is significant at least in the historical sense? And if you were once a believer, what made you decide to leave the faith? And would you ever return?

The Bible was written by specific peoples for specific peoples. Most of the work has no application to modern society outside of some of the more simplistic tenants like some of the teachings of Jesus, which apply in their vaguery, and which no longer need the authority of some omnipotent being.

Much of what we call the Bible is simply origin stories for a specific people, or laws codified for a specific people, and literally can not have modern applications / got it wrong.

Ryudo
05-14-2009, 08:28 AM
Could you go into more detail on this?

In what aspect?

Jesus quotes established Old Testament scripture in that verse; He did so several times throughout His ministry.

Fake Pat
05-14-2009, 08:31 AM
In what aspect?

Jesus quotes established Old Testament scripture in that verse; He did so several times throughout His ministry.

And his point was "Ignore it"?

Jet
05-14-2009, 08:33 AM
I am Catholic and I don't think the Bible should be taken literally word for word but more of a guideline to live your life which can be summed up in two easy rules, love God and love your neighbor (which I believe JC said).

A lot of the notions are obviously dated and out of touch with the modern world and as someone else said, there are continuity issues. While I believe God is good and all knowing and all that jazz, he does give man free will and puts it into man's hands to write the Bible so the Bible is subject to mans flaws in interpretation and bias which is why I think many of the particulars are flawed like the not eating shell fish thing as a sign of the times and the permission to have slaves are not in line with the teachings to love your neighbor. If that made sense.

I was having a discussion with my girlfriend about being Catholic and how to raise kids when we have them, and she, being Unitarian, was vehemently against raising kids as Catholic and saw it as 'brain washing'. Of course, she had really no idea of what being raised Catholic entailed and I had to explain it to her, which surprised me that she didn't know since she is a PhD Anthropologist, but I think there is this notion that there is no debate or dissent in Christian based religions, or in my case Catholicism. She was surprised that I would want our kids raised Catholic because I don't go to church or donate money to the church and that's because I don't approve of their politics and many of the practices which I think are contrary to the lessons in the Bible and that's really the only way I can show my disapproval, with my wallet or lack their of, but I still hold my faith.

Ryudo
05-14-2009, 08:36 AM
And his point was "Ignore it"?

I get it now.

No, His point was never to ignore it. He used it much like parables to illustrate His points. Many times He would come up against groups like the Scribes, and the Pharisees, and the Chief Priests, who would question Him and what He was talking about. So He'd make His points in ways that those individuals could understand, the same way He told parables to the masses that followed Him.

There in Mark 7, Jesus is referring to how in earlier times, the Hebrews held the written law of God, the Torah, in such esteem that they would not write down their reflections on it, lest they should tempt later generations to consider their own words as important as God's law. But as time went on, written commentaries on the law collected in the Talmud assumed greater authority than the Torah itself. Thus the illustration that Jesus was trying to make.

Fake Pat
05-14-2009, 08:38 AM
I get it now.

No, His point was never to ignore it. He used it much like parables to illustrate His points. Many times He would come up against groups like the Scribes, and the Pharisees, and the Chief Priests, who would question Him and what He was talking about. So He'd make His points in ways that those individuals could understand, the same way He told parables to the masses that followed Him.

There in Mark 7, Jesus is referring to how in earlier times, the Hebrews held the written law of God, the Torah, in such esteem that they would not write down their reflections on it, lest they should tempt later generations to consider their own words as important as God's law. But as time went on, written commentaries on the law collected in the Talmud assumed greater authority than the Torah itself. Thus the illustration that Jesus was trying to make.

I'm missing something here.

Are you saying the point was that the written law of god should change?

Pick The System!
05-14-2009, 08:40 AM
What are you, some kind of Jew or something? :)

My issues come from the fact that there are a lot of inconsistencies and contradictions held within the Bible, yet many people still like to dissect which parts make the most sense to them and hold those ideals against others who would feel differently.

Is holding the belief that homosexuality is wrong make that person any different than someone who believes slavery is right?

This (http://www.amazon.com/Who-Wrote-Bible-Richard-Friedman/dp/0060630353) is, imho, a good book that addresses what I think you're talking about in this case. It deals with the Documentary Hypothesis, which is founded on the idea that four different sources were compiled when organizing the Bible - each source had its own unique traits that make its contributions stand out in the Bible. In this theory, there is also a redactor, or somebody who has edited the Bible into something we recognize today. These different sources help explain what can be called inconsistencies within the Bible itself.

Jef UK
05-14-2009, 08:40 AM
Jesus quotes established Old Testament scripture in that verse; He did so several times throughout His ministry.

You mean that authors reported several decades (and up to a century) after Jesus' historical death that he quoted established Old Testament scripture in those verses. Any close reading has to recognize that it's not, "Jesus said," but, "the writer known as 'Paul' said that 'Jesus said."

While conversationally, we may talk of, "Socrates said," we must recognize that what we read is, "Plato said, 'Socrates said.'" Of course, given the immediate history of Plato's work and contemporary citations from other sources, Plato's Socrates HAS to be more reliable than the Gospel as to reporting historical accuracies. Then there's always the bias of Socrates' and Jesus' followers that has to be taken into account. Both men were murdered by their respective "states" after all. (I put states in quotes because modern terminology is an anachronism for the societies that existed prior to, what, the mid 16th Century?)

Ryudo
05-14-2009, 08:41 AM
I'm missing something here.

Are you saying the point was that the written law of god should change?

The point is that they shouldn't put so much emphasis on what the writers of the Talmud wrote.

Fake Pat
05-14-2009, 08:44 AM
The point is that they shouldn't put so much emphasis on what the writers of the Talmud wrote.

Were the writers of the Talmud also perfect gods?

If not, the parable appears to be pretty pointless.

Ryudo
05-14-2009, 08:46 AM
Were the writers of the Talmud also perfect gods?

If not, the parable is pointless.

How is it pointless? Jesus was making an allegory to the fact that individuals were putting too much emphasis on the Talmud.

The Bible has several instances of its "characters" going in somewhere and addressing specific sins. If that passage is wrong, then so are practically all the epistles.

Fake Pat
05-14-2009, 08:50 AM
How is it pointless? Jesus was making an allegory to the fact that individuals were putting too much emphasis on the Talmud.

The Bible has several instances of its "characters" going in somewhere and addressing specific sins. If that passage is wrong, then so are practically all the epistles.

Then wasn't he saying they should pay more attention to the old testament, and therefore promoting killing children who cursed their parents?

RickLM
05-14-2009, 08:50 AM
Over the course of the last year or so I've been on this board, I noticed in just about every serious thread on politics the topic of Christianity and the Bible comes up but there has never really been an exclusive discussion on the Christian Bible and the merits and critiques of it.

So let's talk it out, hopefully with as much honesty and respect as most of the political discussions we have here.

The reason I chose the Christian faith and the Holy Bible is because with most of the board being based in America, many of us are most familiar with the scripture held within the Christian Bible. Many concerns regarding policies past and present are also coming to a head in our daily conversations which ties into scripture, and may affect our future very very soon.

For the believers: how closely do you follow the word of God as portrayed within the version of the Bible that you read? If you do not follow it word for word, what made you decide which parts to follow and which parts to ignore? Do you feel there are parts of the Bible which may be flawed and no longer apply to modern life (i.e. slavery, homosexuality, etc)? And if you do pick and choose which verses to follow, do you feel such an act blasphemies to God and Jesus Christ?

For the non-believers: are there any tenants held within that you believe in? Do you feel that the Bible is flawed because of the scripture held within or because of the practices of the Christian religion itself? Do you feel it is significant at least in the historical sense? And if you were once a believer, what made you decide to leave the faith? And would you ever return?



Even the most died-in-the-wool fundamentalist will not follow it "word-for-word" or believe in the "truth of every single word."

For example, the Bible has 66 books, which are divided into a few categories: history, poetry, letters, prophecy. A person who takes the Bible literally truly believes that there was a man named Noah who built a large vessel and saved a human remnant from a terrible flood. But the same person realizes that the story of the Prodigal Son is fictional; Jesus was telling an allegorical story to teach his audience and make a point about forgiveness. In the same way, we might tell our children a fake story (Cinderella) to communicate an important truth (blended families need to get along, or whatever).

Also, for Christians, there is a lot of the Old Testament that is not adhered to. The idea is, the Old Testament instructions were written to Israel, and many of them don't apply to us. I don't follow Jewish dietary laws, for example. But Christians do read the Old Testament because of what it reveals about God, His plan and His relation to humanity.

Should the Bible be followed and studied? IMO, absolutely. But asking me "if its all true" is one of those questions that you can't answer in one word. You can read an epic poem about a Civil War battle and probably find a mixture of truth, opinion, and literary license in the poem.

Fake Pat
05-14-2009, 08:52 AM
Even the most died-in-the-wool fundamentalist will not follow it "word-for-word" or believe in the "truth of every single word."

For example, the Bible has 66 books, which are divided into a few categories: history, poetry, letters, prophecy. A person who takes the Bible literally truly believes that there was a man named Noah who built a large vessel and saved a human remnant from a terrible flood. But the same person realizes that the story of the Prodigal Son is fictional; Jesus was telling an allegorical story to teach his audience and make a point about forgiveness. In the same way, we might tell our children a fake story (Cinderella) to communicate an important truth (blended families need to get along, or whatever).

Also, for Christians, there is a lot of the Old Testament that is not adhered to. The idea is, the Old Testament instructions were written to Israel, and many of them don't apply to us. I don't follow Jewish dietary laws, for example. But Christians do read the Old Testament because of what it reveals about God, His plan and His relation to humanity.

Should the Bible be followed and studied? IMO, absolutely. But asking me "if its all true" is one of those questions that you can't answer in one word. You can read an epic poem about a Civil War battle and probably find a mixture of truth, opinion, and literary license in the poem.

None of those poems are said to have come from all-powerful, all-knowing, all-perfect sources.

schizorabbit
05-14-2009, 08:54 AM
I am Catholic and I don't think the Bible should be taken literally word for word but more of a guideline to live your life which can be summed up in two easy rules, love God and love your neighbor (which I believe JC said).



I'm sorry but the Southern Baptists preachers and followers from my childhood said that you idol-worshiping Catholics were also gonna end up in the hot place next to the Jews and Buddhists.

Isn't that strange?

kylethoreau
05-14-2009, 08:55 AM
in all fairness if anyone could go and say 'ignore what they said when speaking for God' it'd be Jesus, who is sort of the authority on the matter (being well God ya know)


my gf gave what I feel is the best explanation for the kosher thing. As she sees it it was essentially a 'food safety' list. Since back then those foods were a bit.....dangerous? I'd go on, but sadly the gf isn't here to remind me of the rest.


as see it the bible, if true, makes up to 70% the people who wrote it (with all their personal BS tacked on) and 30% honest to god scripture (no pun intended). I consider the bible flawed at best, but if it is the sole document with which to go about, guess it's the best we can get?:surrend:



personally, I'm of the argument God should've just wrote the fucking thing himself. But that's me.

Doc Randy
05-14-2009, 08:56 AM
As far as the potential belief that the Bible might be flawed or unapplicable to the world today, that's not possible. God is perfect

This statement is probably the key to understanding both fundamentalism/extremism and the atheist/agnostic reaction to faith.



Oddly enough (or not odd at all depending on your perspective), people like Osama bin Laden have said almost the exact same thing in relation to the Koran.

Jef UK
05-14-2009, 08:57 AM
Even the most died-in-the-wool fundamentalist will not follow it "word-for-word" or believe in the "truth of every single word."


How do you know when God means it and when he doesn't?

Drkemerld73
05-14-2009, 08:58 AM
For the non-believers: are there any tenants held within that you believe in? Do you feel that the Bible is flawed because of the scripture held within or because of the practices of the Christian religion itself? Do you feel it is significant at least in the historical sense? And if you were once a believer, what made you decide to leave the faith? And would you ever return?

I don't really want to put myself in one camp or the other quite honestly, since the jury is still out where my life will take me, but I wanted to just offer my thoughts.

What made me start swaying away from organized religion was quite frankly my one Grandmother. She was hardcore religious and her views allowed for very little room in the way of who would be "saved" and who wouldn't.

As I got older I started to question things and decided for my own personal knowledge to go for the confirmation class offered at the Sunday school I was attending. This is Lutheran by the way. Now I'm sure she was seeing it as a good thing, but in fact the more I learned, the more I challenged her on things.

Now she always had on one of those religious radio stations and one day the guy said that whoever didn't believe Jesus was their Lord and Savior would go to Hell. Now I brought up two points: 1- I asked if Jews were going to Hell, and she told me yes, because they didn't believe. And 2- I flat out said Jesus was a Jew, to which she rambled off some type of dismissing rant.

Now I started to question how this loving God could let so many suffer for not believing that Jesus was the Son of God, especially when they were the "Chosen people". He was all about forgiveness and understanding and so on. I refused to believe what she was suggesting and I wasn't going to go along with a whole group of people burning, just because it was slightly different than what we did. That wasn't right to me.

The more I learned, the more I challenged her, and the more dinner became interesting.

As I got older I felt uncomfortable even being at Church. I didn't feel like I should have to be in a building to sing and worship, when I could just as easily sit on the beach and be thankful and also be the best person I can be and also treat other with respect and kindess and so on. Plus I hated knowing that many people who showed up at the "Big Times" of the year were looking for the quick "Hey, I'm relgious" perk.

I had talked with with a Reverend after my Grandfather's death and he listened to what I had to say and he saw that I had my own journey to go on and that I have the right thought of it and the way I wished to go about my life. That felt pretty good to have a spiritual leader actually back up my thinking and not tell me I was going to burn or whatever.

Each religion offers something good whether it be something that deals with how you deal with others or deals with your own personal enlightenment and I like learning about each of them and what they offer.

If there is a God, Gods, Godesses, or whatever, I'm just going to do the best I can. That's all I can do and I'm not going to suck up and beg or try to get in any one's good graces.

I'm on my own journey and I'm perfectly content with that. But that's just me.

WillieLee
05-14-2009, 08:59 AM
How do you know when God means it and when he doesn't?

When the subject at hand is in regards to others he means it. When it involves yourself god gets kind of wishy-washy.

Fake Pat
05-14-2009, 09:01 AM
How do you know when God means it and when he doesn't?

Exactly.

It's all or nothing. Either god exists and is all powerful/knowing/good etc. and therefore the bible must be perfect, or god doesn't exist or isn't the god the bible lays out in which case the entire book proves itself false.

kylethoreau
05-14-2009, 09:01 AM
yeah, I've had many a heated argument over the 'does God care?' thread (two nights ago in fact) to me I've always found it fuck all hard to support supposed 'higher' power who is often portrayed as supremely petty and vindictive.




and the whole story of Job just fucking pissed me off to no end. Seriously if it'd been me I would've told god to 'shove it' when he offered me paradise after all that.

Jef UK
05-14-2009, 09:01 AM
The very idea of "perfection" is completely untenable and just another matter of faith. There is no such thing.

Ryudo
05-14-2009, 09:01 AM
RE: the acts of worship, as far as I believe:




Jesus said, "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth" (John 4:23,24).

Two things are required of worshippers if our devotions are to be acceptable to God:

1.

We must worship in spirit. That is, our hearts must be right. We must be right in life. We must have the correct attitude. We must be thinking of what we are doing (Isaiah 1:11-20; Proverbs 28:9; Matthew 15:8).
2.

We must worship God in truth. To worship God in truth means that we will worship God according to the truth. God's Word is truth (John 17:17). Therefore, for our devotions to be acceptable to God, they must be offered in accordance with His Word.

The New Testament gives the acts of worship in which Christians are to engage. The acts of worship mentioned in the Old Testament such as dancing, instrumental music, animal sacrifices, special singers, and the burning of incense, were commanded only of the nation of Israel. The Old Testament as a binding law for God's people ended at the cross (Colossians 2:13,14). Christians must learn from the New Testament, the law of Christ for all people today, how God wants to be worshipped today. The acts of worship required by God are plainly set forth in the New Testament.
The Lord's Supper

The Lord's supper or communion (1 Corinthians 10:16) consists of two things: (1) unleavened bread (without yeast) and (2) the fruit of the vine (grape juice). The purpose of the Lord's Supper is to bring to our remembrance the sacrifice of the body and blood of Jesus on the cross for our sins (Matthew 26:26-29). We must be very careful when we partake of the communion that we discern the blood and body of Jesus so that we partake in a worthy manner (1 Corinthians 11:23-30). Christians are to eat the Lord's Supper every first day of every week (Acts 20:7).
Prayer

Prayers offered to God are to be a part of our public worship as well as our private daily devotions. There are many examples and precepts concerning prayer in the New Testament (1 Timothy 2:1,2,8; Philippians 4:6, etc.). In our prayers to God we give thanks and praise His name. In our prayers we can pray for our needs and for the needs of others. Jesus gave us a "model" prayer in Matthew 6:5-15. He did not intend for us simply to repeat this prayer by rote but gave it as an example by which we could pattern our own prayers. Jesus Christ is our mediator and high priest. Therefore, our prayers must be addressed to God in the name of Jesus (John 16:23; 1 Timothy 2:5; Hebrews 4:14-16; 1 John 2:1,2).
Preaching and Teaching God's Word

God has commanded us to teach His Word (Matthew 28:19,20). Both saved and sinners need to be taught. Therefore, a lesson from the Bible is one of the acts of worship in which Christians are to engage (Acts 2:42). We must learn God's Word so that we can grow stronger in Christ, teach others, and overcome false teachings (1 Peter 2:1,2; 2 Timothy 2:2; 4:1-5). This is a very important part of our worship and must never be overlooked.
Giving

Giving of our means is a part of our worship to God. This is the way Christ's church gets the necessary funds to do its work. God has given us the perfect plan for giving (1 Corinthians 16:2). We are told who is to give, "Let every one of you." We are told when we are to give, "Upon the first day of the week." We are also told how much to give, "As God hat prospered us." We show our love for God when we give cheerfully and willingly to Him (2 Corinthians 9:7).
Singing

Christians are commanded to praise God in song (Colossians 3:16). The kind of music God has commanded for His church is vocal music only, that is, singing. There is no command or example anywhere in the New Testament for the use of mechanical instrumental music in Christian worship. To add instruments of music to our singing is a sin for it is adding to what God has told us that He wants. No man has the right to do this (Revelation 22:18, 19; 2 John 9-11). We are to "make melody in our hearts" (Ephesians 5:19), the instruments made by God, not instruments made by man!

Neither has God commanded us to have special singers in our worship such as choirs. Every Christian must praise God in song just as every one must partake of the Lord's Supper for himself. The purpose of our worship to God is not to entertain ourselves. Therefore, what we do in worship is not based on that which appeals to our physical senses, but must be based upon what pleases God!

True Christians want to worship God. In fact, it is impossible for a true Christian not to worship God. When we understand God's greatness, His glory, majesty, wisdom, and strength, and reflect upon His infinite mercy in giving His only begotten Son to save us from our sins, our hearts will overflow with a "sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of the lips giving thanks to his name" (Hebrews 13:15).

JABSEN
05-14-2009, 09:01 AM
How do you know when God means it and when he doesn't?The wink smiley.

kylethoreau
05-14-2009, 09:02 AM
Exactly.

It's all or nothing. Either god exists and is all powerful/knowing/good etc. and therefore the bible must be perfect, or god doesn't exist or isn't the god the bible lays out in which case the entire book proves itself false.

or

C) God operates outside of how we think, so to be fair we may be unable to fully grasp what exactly he truly means.

Jef UK
05-14-2009, 09:03 AM
The wink smiley.

lulz. Perfect.

Fake Pat
05-14-2009, 09:04 AM
RE: the acts of worship, as far as I believe:



And what happens to those who do not follow those acts?

Jef UK
05-14-2009, 09:04 AM
or

C) God operates outside of how we think, so to be fair we may be unable to fully grasp what exactly he truly means.

This assumes God's existence as a premise, which begs the question (i.e., is a logical fallacy).

More conversationally, if God operates outside of how we think, how can we ever know we're interpreting him correctly, or that we can interpret him at all? How would we ever 'get at him"? Which is to say, we're approaching Kant's metaphysics.

Fake Pat
05-14-2009, 09:06 AM
or

C) God operates outside of how we think, so to be fair we may be unable to fully grasp what exactly he truly means.

In which case he/she/it could not have created the bible (which operates inside how we think) and could not actually be the god referenced in the bible since said being could not have the attributes the bible gives him/her/it.

HOOKS
05-14-2009, 09:07 AM
Now she always had on one of those religious radio stations and one day the guy said that whoever didn't believe Jesus was their Lord and Savior would go to Hell. Now I brought up two points: 1- I asked if Jews were going to Hell, and she told me yes, because they didn't believe. And 2- I flat out said Jesus was a Jew, to which she rambled off some type of dismissing rant.

Now I started to question how this loving God could let so many suffer for not believing the Jesus was the Son of God, especially when they were the "Chosen people".

Reminds me of a conversation I had once with a friend. I brought up the fact that even today, there are tribes in Africa and South America who have never had much contact with the outside world, and would not know what a Jesus Christ is.

I asked him, "are they going to Hell?" His response, "that's why they need to be saved, because they don't know the love of God." I then said, "so God created certain people with the intent of going to Hell?" His response was "The Lord works in mysterious ways, and you are losing your journey to the Lord."

Obviously, that wasn't an answer, but a dismissal to my question and a judgment immediately placed upon me for questioning his logic. It seems that while Jesus Christ was forgiving, many Christians are not.

Christopher Brian
05-14-2009, 09:08 AM
For the non-believers: are there any tenants held within that you believe in? Do you feel that the Bible is flawed because of the scripture held within or because of the practices of the Christian religion itself? Do you feel it is significant at least in the historical sense? And if you were once a believer, what made you decide to leave the faith? And would you ever return?

I'm an agnostic. Though I had a ton of biblical stuff poured into my head my sense of morality has always been my sense of morality without thinking about any negative. Meaning I don't steal because its wrong not because I was told I would go to hell.

I'm a Georgia boy. My mother has been the secretary of her church my entire adult life. She's gone to her church every sunday for the 59 years of her life. My grandmother has gone to the same church all 79 years of her life. My great grandmother went to the same church her entire life before she passed. I attribute my sense of right and wrong to those three women. Not to any biblical teachings.

My observations growing up were that the support system, particularly in southern baptist churches, can be either non existent or a little too intrusive. They'll help you... but everyone is going to know your business and even though they say not to pass judgement whatever mistakes you make become a defacto cautionary tale for someone.

I find nothing wrong with people who practice organized religion tempered with common sense.

The loonies though... sheesh.

kylethoreau
05-14-2009, 09:08 AM
I just look at it as if god does exist, it's likely he's completely alien in form and thinking to how we are.



would explain why the bible claims you can't actually look upon him. Eh, I like it better than simply going 'bah! the 2000 year old book contradicts itself in parts! So God MUST not be real!' seems a bit extreme on the other end.


I like my stance in the middle:)

Fake Pat
05-14-2009, 09:08 AM
This assumes God's existence as a premise, which begs the question (i.e., is a logical fallacy).

More conversationally, if God operates outside of how we think, how can we ever know we're interpreting him correctly, or that we can interpret him at all? How would we ever 'get at him"? Which is to say, we're approaching Kant's metaphysics.

That too.

RickLM
05-14-2009, 09:09 AM
How do you know when God means it and when he doesn't?


You read it intelligently, and in context. When I hear MLK's "I Had a Dream" speech, I put it in context -- it's a literary flourish inside an inspirational speech. I really don't think he had that exact dream, in that exact order (who dreams that perfectly?).

Jef UK
05-14-2009, 09:09 AM
Kant's metaphysics are bullshit, by the way. He too got it wrong. I think it's his critical apparatus that is worth noting, not his content.

Fake Pat
05-14-2009, 09:09 AM
I just look at it as if god does exist, it's likely he's completely alien in form and thinking to how we are.



would explain why the bible claims you can't actually look upon him. Eh, I like it better than simply going 'bah! the 2000 year old book contradicts itself in parts! So God MUST not be real!' seems a bit extreme on the other end.


I like my stance in the middle:)

And if that was true, the bible would be wrong.

It's not really a "stance in the middle" at all.

Doc Randy
05-14-2009, 09:10 AM
Bonus question:
How did Judas Iscariot die?

Fake Pat
05-14-2009, 09:11 AM
You read it intelligently, and in context. When I hear MLK's "I Had a Dream" speech, I put it in context -- it's a literary flourish inside an inspirational speech. I really don't think he had that exact dream, in that exact order (who dreams that perfectly?).

If the god the bible claims exists was responsible for the bible, context would be irrelevant.

Ryudo
05-14-2009, 09:12 AM
Bonus question:
How did Judas Iscariot die?

Suicide.

Jason California
05-14-2009, 09:12 AM
:D

The Old Testament was established for the Jews, and there were systems in place there that God hoped would work. They didn't, which is why God sent Jesus to die for all of mankind.

The New Testament is the new law, the new commandments. The laws and tenets of the Old Testament, while helpful in some cases as lessons and testaments of faith (Job comes to mind), no longer apply.

As such, no, I don't believe in the death penalty for any of those things.


I don't know if this question has been asked, but if God is perfect why did he have to hope?

Jef UK
05-14-2009, 09:13 AM
You read it intelligently, and in context. When I hear MLK's "I Had a Dream" speech, I put it in context -- it's a literary flourish inside an inspirational speech. I really don't think he had that exact dream, in that exact order (who dreams that perfectly?).

When two scriptures give opposing instructions, how are you to know which one God meant? Pick and choose dogma is meaningless. If you are already intelligent, moral, and appreciative of historical structures like context, why bother with faith?

HOOKS
05-14-2009, 09:13 AM
Bonus question:
How did Judas Iscariot die?

He walked around the world, but he was insane so he was really walking around in a field he bought, and in his guilt he hung himself headfirst, with the help of a chariot hitting him, causing him to burst asunder in the midst with all his bowels gushed out.

:)

kylethoreau
05-14-2009, 09:13 AM
In which case he/she/it could not have created the bible (which operates inside how we think) and could not actually be the god referenced in the bible since said being could not have the attributes the bible gives him/her/it.

you missed the part about him being all powerful right? I imagine God could still communicate with us. That being said his true motivations and meanings could be that of a totally different style of thinking and therefore we don't fully 'get' what he means.


or a better way of thinking (not a 'good' example but eh) take a psychotic we can grasp what he's doing to an extent, but because his way of thinking is decidedly 'alien' to our own we will still be left dumbfounded by his meanings.

Drkemerld73
05-14-2009, 09:14 AM
Reminds me of a conversation I had once with a friend. I brought up the fact that even today, there are tribes in Africa and South America who have never had much contact with the outside world, and would not know what a Jesus Christ is.

I asked him, "are they going to Hell?" His response, "that's why they need to be saved, because they don't know the love of God." I then said, "so God created certain people with the intent of going to Hell?" His response was "The Lord works in mysterious ways, and you are losing your journey to the Lord."

Obviously, that wasn't an answer, but a dismissal to my question and a judgment immediately placed upon me for questioning his logic. It seems that while Jesus Christ was forgiving, many Christians are not.

Seems to be the case, and that's why I just prefer doing my own thing.

A.Huerta
05-14-2009, 09:16 AM
All this reminds me of a song called The Truth by KRS-One

It's not natural If it goes against God
It's not factual Her truth is not hard
It's not natural If it goes against God
It's not factual Gimme the truth!

Listen to the lyric as the negative is shrinkin
It's shrinkin out your life when you decide to change your thinkin
One of the first things we gotta switch around of course
Is Jesus Christ and him dying on the cross
You're looking at the cross surrounded in it's mystery
With Jesus on the cross in a, total misery
Now seperate Jesus from the cross so you can see
The truth about the cross, and the cross's history
The cross was created by the Roman government
It's only purpose and use, is cap-i-tal punishment
But Jesus Christ, was all about the revolution
While the cross was used as Jesus Christ's execution
See what if Jesus Christ, was hung upon a tree
Upon every church wall, that's exactly what you'd see
If Jesus Christ, was shot in the head with no respect
We'd all have little gold guns around our neck
If Jesus Christ was killed in electic chair, now get it
You'd be knealing to the electric chair with Jesus, still in it
You gaze upon the cross, and you see the execution
You yell stop the violence but the cross you're still using

It's not natural If it goes against God
It's not factual Her truth is not hard
It's not natural If it goes against God
It's not factual Gimme the truth!

So I say listen, listen, open up your third eye vision
God is not down with religion
Religion they be sellin it, listen up, God is intelligent
Reading of the bible is irrelevant
You gotta look within yourself, not a scripture
KRS-One comes to rearrange the God picture
If you sit and believe, you can acheive
If you sit and accept, you don't know, what's correct
or incorrect, take for instance Adam and Eve
The first two people on the planet, or so you believe
Their first time in heaven kids they had, Cain and Abel
Huh, now let me show you why the story's unstable
According to the story, according to what you believe
There was only Cain, Abel, Adam, and Eve
on the whole planet, now use your intellect
and tell me, what did Cain and Abel do for sex?
Upon the whole planet there was not another
Could it be for sex, heh, they were looking at each other?
Hold up! I thought the church wasn't into that
But wait, still yet, there is another fact
How did the world get populated?
Now tell me if I'm wrong, but obviously Eve had it goin on
Think for a minute, I know it gets notorious
But yo G, check out the chorus

It's not natural If it goes against God
It's not factual Her truth is not hard
It's not natural If it goes against God
It's not factual Gimme the truth!

Fake Pat
05-14-2009, 09:16 AM
you missed the part about him being all powerful right? I imagine God could still communicate with us. That being said his true motivations and meanings could be that of a totally different style of thinking and therefore we don't fully 'get' what he means.


or a better way of thinking (not a 'good' example but eh) take a psychotic we can grasp what he's doing to an extent, but because his way of thinking is decidedly 'alien' to our own we will still be left dumbfounded by his meanings.

No, apparently you did.

If an ALL-powerful being existed he/she/it would be able to convey his/her/it's true motivations and meanings to us.

If it could not, it could not be all-powerful.

Doc Randy
05-14-2009, 09:17 AM
Suicide.


He walked around the world, but he was insane so he was really walking around in a field he bought, and in his guilt he hung himself headfirst, with the help of a chariot hitting him, causing him to burst asunder in the midst with all his bowels gushed out.

:)

Maybe. Maybe not. The Bible presents two contradictory histories of his death.

What Ryudo presents was the story from the Gospel of Matthew that said he committed suicide by hanging himself.

But, in Acts 1:18, it says he took his bribe, bought a field, and then fell head-first and burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

kylethoreau
05-14-2009, 09:17 AM
And if that was true, the bible would be wrong.

It's not really a "stance in the middle" at all.

actually it is. I'm saying that we may not understand it fully.

kylethoreau
05-14-2009, 09:18 AM
No, apparently you did.

If an ALL-powerful being existed he/she/it would be able to convey his/her/it's true motivations and meanings to us.

If it could not, it could not be all-powerful.


he didn't make us all powerful, therefore we won't make em. Or once again, there might actually be a reason for us not to understand it.


I'll take it you're an athiest.

Ryudo
05-14-2009, 09:20 AM
I don't know if this question has been asked, but if God is perfect why did he have to hope?

We have free will.

Fake Pat
05-14-2009, 09:20 AM
he didn't make us all powerful, therefore we won't make em. Or once again, there might actually be a reason for us not to understand it.


I'll take it you're an athiest.

Irrelevant.

HOOKS
05-14-2009, 09:20 AM
Maybe. Maybe not. The Bible presents two contradictory histories of his death.

What Ryudo presents was the story from the Gospel of Matthew that said he committed suicide by hanging himself.

But, in Acts 1:18, it says he took his bribe, bought a field, and then fell head-first and burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.




...my post was actually an amalgamation of all three stories of Judas' death, probably done to ill-effect. :surrend:

Fake Pat
05-14-2009, 09:22 AM
We have free will.

Then the god you claim exists can not exist, as he would not be all-powerful (perfect).

Doc Randy
05-14-2009, 09:23 AM
...my post was actually an amalgamation of all three stories of Judas' death, probably done to ill-effect. :surrend:

heh... i missed it. My brain gets slower as I get older.

Jef UK
05-14-2009, 09:23 AM
We have free will.

So says you.

Brian Defferding
05-14-2009, 09:24 AM
Then the god you claim exists can not exist, as he would not be all-powerful (perfect).

Well, perhaps mostly powerful then?

HOOKS
05-14-2009, 09:26 AM
heh... i missed it. My brain gets slower as I get older.

I thought "he hung himself headfirst with the help of a chariot" would have been a dead giveaway. :)

Although I do imagine hanging oneself headfirst would hurt a lot.

Thomas Mauer
05-14-2009, 09:26 AM
I've only read the Ultimate Bible, in which Moses is portrayed as a Will Smith type spewing one liners, and Jesus has a flaming sword and he has a kung fu sidekick named Chang.

What, you haven't read the apocrypha "Loaded Bible" yet?!

Fake Pat
05-14-2009, 09:27 AM
Well, perhaps mostly powerful then?

Maybe.

But that's not the god described by Ryudo or the bible.

Hate_Prime
05-14-2009, 09:30 AM
Where is heaven?

Henry!
05-14-2009, 09:30 AM
Then the god you claim exists can not exist, as he would not be all-powerful (perfect).

When I took a Milton class, we read a few of his apologies and Milton was obsessed with this notion - how can we have free will and still have an omnipotent, caring God? I'm sure I'm misremembering all the details but Milton basically believed that any universe worth creating would require free will, as a universe with nothing but unwavering devotion would be, well, boring. It would then be up to Man to either sin or not (we chose to), leaving it up to God to present another way to get right again (Jesus).

Granted, I agree 100% with with you and Jef UK are saying, what with the Bible being entirely false and not applicable to anyone outside of ancient contexts.

kylethoreau
05-14-2009, 09:33 AM
Irrelevant.

why, because it means that I could in fact be right?



seriously, why even participate in threads like this? It's screamingly obvious you hold no belief whatsoever, and appear to in fact look down on those who do.




My question, what makes you believe that you somehow can understand what a being who literally created everything is thinking? I mean are you seriously expecting it to think and act like us?

Fake Pat
05-14-2009, 09:33 AM
When I took a Milton class, we read a few of his apologies and Milton was obsessed with this notion - how can we have free will and still have an omnipotent, caring God? I'm sure I'm misremembering all the details but Milton basically believed that any universe worth creating would require free will, as a universe with nothing but unwavering devotion would be, well, boring. It would then be up to Man to either sin or not (we chose to), leaving it up to God to present another way to get right again (Jesus).

Granted, I agree 100% with with you and Jef UK are saying, what with the Bible being entirely false and not applicable to anyone outside of ancient contexts.

An all-powerful god would have the ability to create a "boring" universe without becoming "bored". :)

Brian Defferding
05-14-2009, 09:34 AM
Where is heaven?

Somewhere that has an infinite supply of great pizza, cheap whiskey and hot female bisexual nymphomaniacs.

That's where I'm going when I die.

Fake Pat
05-14-2009, 09:34 AM
why, because it means that I could in fact be right?

No, because you're missing the point.

A perfect being would have the ability to convey ANYTHING to an imperfect being, or else that first being would not be perfect.

Doc Randy
05-14-2009, 09:35 AM
Where is heaven?

Iowa?

Drkemerld73
05-14-2009, 09:36 AM
Somewhere that has an infinite supply of great pizza, cheap whiskey and hot female bisexual nymphomaniacs.

That's where I'm going when I die.

Fine. Then you're not getting the comic shop and movie theater in mine.

If you're nice and write, I'll invite you over sometimes.

:D

Hoggie
05-14-2009, 09:36 AM
why, because it means that I could in fact be right?



seriously, why even participate in threads like this? It's screamingly obvious you hold no belief whatsoever, and appear to in fact look down on those who do.




My question, what makes you believe that you somehow can understand what a being who literally created everything is thinking? I mean are you seriously expecting it to think and act like us?

This must be your first encounter.

Brian Defferding
05-14-2009, 09:36 AM
Fine. Then you're not getting the comic shop and movie theater in mine.

If you're nice and write, I'll invite you over sometimes.

:D

It's a deal! :D

Ben
05-14-2009, 09:36 AM
Anyone read the essay by Carl Sagan called "Dragon in my Garage"?

kylethoreau
05-14-2009, 09:37 AM
and as I've it may be beyond our understanding. Meaning there might actually be a reason it's like that, but we as a people don't understand why, which might be God's plan at the moment.


if we were all powerful or whatnot I imagine we'd catch it right away.











fuck, I'm a goddamn agnostic and here I am constantly defending the believers. I blame the girlfriend.

Ashwin Pande
05-14-2009, 09:38 AM
Same old, same old.

Henry!
05-14-2009, 09:39 AM
No, because you're missing the point.

A perfect being would have the ability to convey ANYTHING to an imperfect being, or else that first being would not be perfect.

Unless the perfect being doesn't want to convey everything perfectly to us imperfect beings. But then he's just being mean.

Drkemerld73
05-14-2009, 09:39 AM
It's a deal! :D

Wooohooo!

Ben
05-14-2009, 09:40 AM
why, because it means that I could in fact be right?

seriously, why even participate in threads like this? It's screamingly obvious you hold no belief whatsoever, and appear to in fact look down on those who do.

My question, what makes you believe that you somehow can understand what a being who literally created everything is thinking? I mean are you seriously expecting it to think and act like us?OMG would you just continue the discussion? Usually when people say what you just said, it's code for "I have no more rational arguments left, and it's frustrating me."

My response to your question, do you realize you've just invented a being that's unknowable and impossible to truly understand? What's the value of that? It's certainly not based on anything real. You've just created a conveniently untestable, unverifiable creature.

schizorabbit
05-14-2009, 09:40 AM
Same old, same old.

Knock knock.

Who's there?

Banana.

Banana who?

Knock knock.

Who's there?

Banana.

Banana who?

Knock knock.

Who's there?

Orange.

Orange who?

Orange you glad I didn't say, "Banana"?

Ben
05-14-2009, 09:41 AM
Unless the perfect being doesn't want to convey everything perfectly to us imperfect beings. But then he's just being mean.
As a finite being, how can you claim that "mean" means the same thing to a super awesome infinite being like God!?

Fake Pat
05-14-2009, 09:41 AM
OMG would you just continue the discussion? Usually when people say what you just said, it's code for "I have no more rational arguments left, and it's frustrating me."

My response to your question, do you realize you've just invented a being that's unknowable and impossible to truly understand? What's the value of that? It's certainly not based on anything real. You've just created a conveniently untestable, unverifiable creature.

Which is also not the being the bible discusses as "god".

Ben
05-14-2009, 09:41 AM
Knock knock.

Who's there?

Banana.

Banana who?

Knock knock.

Who's there?

Banana.

Banana who?

Knock knock.

Who's there?

Orange.

Orange who?

Orange you glad I didn't say, "Banana"? Yes, actually. I am quite glad.

Fake Pat
05-14-2009, 09:42 AM
Unless the perfect being doesn't want to convey everything perfectly to us imperfect beings. But then he's just being mean.

That too.

Alex(sadly)Maleev
05-14-2009, 09:44 AM
Iowa?

Wasn't Israel there?

Ashwin Pande
05-14-2009, 09:45 AM
Yes, actually. I am quite glad.

You ever wonder if God created the Earth just for the Orange and we are destroying his beloved children?

Henry!
05-14-2009, 09:51 AM
As a finite being, how can you claim that "mean" means the same thing to a super awesome infinite being like God!?

Well, he might not think it's mean, but I sure would. That's one of the reasons I have a lot of trouble with Christianity - the Christian God just seems to be a big jerk.

Ben
05-14-2009, 09:51 AM
You ever wonder if God created the Earth just for the Orange and we are destroying his beloved children?Botany tells us that oranges are made by the plant to be eaten. Which, of course, means that botanists are agents of Satan.

Brian Defferding
05-14-2009, 09:54 AM
For the believers: how closely do you follow the word of God as portrayed within the version of the Bible that you read? If you do not follow it word for word, what made you decide which parts to follow and which parts to ignore? Do you feel there are parts of the Bible which may be flawed and no longer apply to modern life (i.e. slavery, homosexuality, etc)? And if you do pick and choose which verses to follow, do you feel such an act blasphemies to God and Jesus Christ?

To answer your question:

For me, I like to keep my religious beliefs simplified. Partly because there is still a lot in history still not yet known, and it's hard for us to to prove many things written in the bible. However, at the same time, back then writing was the only way to document anything, and there has to be some truth to them, with enough documented witnesses. Like I said before in another thread, Alexander the Great's actions were documented hundreds of years after his passing, but most historians trust the accounts told.

Anyway, I get the overall message of Jesus, which is basically "peace and love". Sacrifice yourself willfully for others. Persuade with word, not with force. Be nice. Enjoy life. Find happiness. God is powerful but wants us to decide for ourselves.

A few rough guidelines is all I need. I'm sure there are some things I do which Jesus and God wouldn't approve of. But nobody's perfect. Even God and Jesus. We just keep on livin' and do the best we can.

Henry!
05-14-2009, 09:54 AM
Botany tells us that oranges are made by the plant to be eaten. Which, of course, means that botanists are agents of Satan.

When I was kid, before I liked vegetables, I would always try to worm out of it by saying that while fruits are meant to be eaten, vegetables usually are the plants themselves, so eating them would be like murder!

Of course I ate meat with no second thoughts, so, you know, not the best argument.

Drkemerld73
05-14-2009, 09:56 AM
You ever wonder if God created the Earth just for the Orange and we are destroying his beloved children?

Well. We worship them and thank them for their health boosting goodness. We spread word about them so that other might know of their goodness. We also mourn their loss when something happens.

It's no different than Jesus.

Thomas Mauer
05-14-2009, 09:57 AM
And what happens to those who do not follow those acts?

"We don't need [them] let the motherfucker[s] burn" ?

John Drake
05-14-2009, 09:58 AM
Anyone read the essay by Carl Sagan called "Dragon in my Garage"?

Rings a bell.

Drkemerld73
05-14-2009, 09:59 AM
To answer your question:

For me, I like to keep my religious beliefs simplified. Partly because there is still a lot in history still not yet known, and it's hard for us to to prove many things written in the bible. However, at the same time, back then writing was the only way to document anything, and there has to be some truth to them, with enough documented witnesses. Like I said before in another thread, Alexander the Great's actions were documented hundreds of years after his passing, but most historians trust the accounts told.

Anyway, I get the overall message of Jesus, which is basically "peace and love". Sacrifice yourself willfully for others. Persuade with word, not with force. Be nice. Enjoy life. Find happiness. God is powerful but wants us to decide for ourselves.

A few rough guidelines is all I need. I'm sure there are some things I do which Jesus and God wouldn't approve of. But nobody's perfect. Even God and Jesus. We just keep on livin' and do the best we can.

*Waits patiently for a snarky anti-Libertarian based comment*

Ben
05-14-2009, 10:00 AM
Well. We worship them and thank them for their health boosting goodness. We spread word about them so that other might know of their goodness. We also mourn their loss when something happens.

It's no different than Jesus.We even named a whole color after them, much like how Mexicans name their kids after Jesus and Mary.

Alex(sadly)Maleev
05-14-2009, 10:03 AM
We even named a whole color after them, much like how Mexicans name their kids after Jesus and Mary.

In Bulgaria a few years ago, a gypsy family named their twins Jesus and Christ. (Isus and Hristos in orthodox) It was adorable.

stevapalooza
05-14-2009, 10:03 AM
For the non-believers: are there any tenants held within that you believe in?


Of course. I just don't give the Bible credit for them. I think there's a reason most religious texts seem to preach the same basic message--because morality is a human trait. The Bible doesn't preach anything that someone somewhere hadn't already preached. The golden rule? Confucius had that covered before Jesus was even born. And the Hindus were already preaching charity and compassion when Moses was literally in short pants. Even Genghis Khan forbade adultery. It's not a Bible thing, it's a human thing. The Bible, like every other religious text, is just one culture's written expression of it. In that respect I don't consider it better or worse than the rest. Just another cultural artifact.

Hate_Prime
05-14-2009, 10:07 AM
Can God be killed if you dropped a nuclear bomb on his head? Does he even have a head? And if he is a he, what would he need the male bits that would require the biological distinction for? Is there a She-God? If there is, would she have equal rights as god?

Ashwin Pande
05-14-2009, 10:10 AM
See, I think Oranges are the chosen fruit. I think evil fruitarians changed the fruit in the bible to an apple. That's why to this day we continuously confuse apples with oranges.

Ben
05-14-2009, 10:17 AM
Can God be killed if you dropped a nuclear bomb on his head? Does he even have a head? And if he is a he, what would he need the male bits that would require the biological distinction for? Is there a She-God? If there is, would she have equal rights as god?Being "male" doesn't necessarily mean you have a penis and balls (I should know!). It just means that you produce a motile gamete (i.e., sperm). And God does produce sperm in the form of rain.

Hate_Prime
05-14-2009, 10:24 AM
Being "male" doesn't necessarily mean you have a penis and balls (I should know!). It just means that you produce a motile gamete (i.e., sperm). And God does produce sperm in the form of rain.

Well that filled my extremely gross visual quota for the day.

Chunky Ink
05-14-2009, 10:24 AM
You ever wonder if God created the Earth just for the Orange and we are destroying his beloved children?
Yes, and they're none too pleased about it.


http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/738/774742agentorange101sup.jpg

Ben
05-14-2009, 10:25 AM
Well that filled my extremely gross visual quota for the day.Try to catch a snowflake on your tongue!

Kedd
05-14-2009, 10:32 AM
I can only speak for everything that comes before the new testament, but I look at it as a work of literature reflective of the times, and in some ways a moral guide. I attempt to live my life by the example of the best historical figures in it - primarily Moses.

I don't look at it as the absolute word of God. The timeframe gets confusing in that case. I suppose you could say the bible has some continuity problems. :)

You murder people?

HOOKS
05-14-2009, 11:33 AM
Here's a handy list of contradictions found in the Bible:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

mario
05-14-2009, 11:39 AM
God's hardcore:

Genesis 38:8-10 (King James Version)

8And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.



I don't quite get this: is Judah telling Onan to give his brother a happy ending massage?

Jason California
05-14-2009, 11:50 AM
I've never claimed to be the most modest person on the board. :) That said, I love luxury automobiles.



Thank you for being absolutely honest.

My history is sort of the opposite of yours. I was raised in a Christian home, went to a Christian private school until high school, when I joined public school. Then I went to a Christian university and that is where my faith started to wain.

I began studying the historical context of Christianity, and learning about the various changes and omissions made to the Bible as it now reads. I couldn't consolidate the faith with which I was raised with the reality of history and how politics and a lack of scientific understanding had an effect on how the Bible was formed.

There's also the fact that many practitioners of Christianity ask that fellow Christians do things that are not listed in the Bible, or believe in things such as homosexuality being a sin that were supposedly negated by the New Testament, yet are willing to overlook the slavery issue.

To me, it is simple. Either God is infallible or he is not. Either the Bible is a book Christians must follow to the letter or it is a book that has historical context in regards to politics and the way we once understood the world that no longer applies to our modern society.


My biggest problem with a lot of Christians is that they are ignorant to the context that these stories were being told in. They have little to no understanding of how these stories came about, the way things have been traqnslated over the centuries and read it in a modern world context. They lose a lot of the meaning in it.


I used to be a Christian. I have gone to Catholic, Baptist, Pentacostal, Non Denominational churches. My last stop was at the Mormon church. I did 2 years of elementary at a Cathloic school. Over time I came to the point where I believed in the Christian faith because it was what I was raised in and had no real conviction or testimony of Christ. THe Bible does not read to me as an infalible document. Religion over the centuries has done a fine job of holding the progress of man back.

That being said, my value system is primarily based off of Christianity. I like the ideas of forgiveness and redemption it speaks to. Love your fellow man. Share what you have. I highly reccoment the book "The Brothers Karamazov" by Fyodor Dostoyevsky. There is a character named Zosima that emobidies this as best as anyone I have ever seen. If everybody applied this to their life I beleive we would be in a much better world than we are now.

WillieLee
05-14-2009, 12:09 PM
Anyone read the essay by Carl Sagan called "Dragon in my Garage"?

Dragons are the leading cause of cancer.

IPeacock
05-14-2009, 12:44 PM
I haven't finished reading it yet - please mark spoilers!!! :)


He dies at the end

schizorabbit
05-14-2009, 02:55 PM
I don't quite get this: is Judah telling Onan to give his brother a happy ending massage?

Nah, he's telling Onan to basically impregnate his brother's wife, and therefore continue his brother's bloodline through the kid that pops out, because, you know, they're brothers. But the dude instead jerked before he squirted a la porn money shots, and God struck him dead.

Thommy Melanson
05-14-2009, 03:05 PM
Nah, he's telling Onan to basically impregnate his brother's wife, and therefore continue his brother's bloodline through the kid that pops out, because, you know, they're brothers. But the dude instead jerked before he squirted a la porn money shots, and God struck him dead.

God demands a cream pie.

RebootedCorpse
05-14-2009, 04:40 PM
I've read it several times through, back when I was a serious Christian in pre-seminary training. One of the many things that led me to atheism.

Ryan Elliott
05-14-2009, 04:47 PM
I've read it several times through, back when I was a serious Christian in pre-seminary training. One of the many things that led me to atheism.


Just out of curiosity, what were the main things ABOUT the bible that converted you to atheism?

RebootedCorpse
05-14-2009, 04:54 PM
Just out of curiosity, what were the main things ABOUT the bible that converted you to atheism?

Well, the Bible was one of many things. One thing is when I did a critical reading of Job, which is the oldest book of the Bible. The conclusion I came to was that human morality trumps God's morality. That God is capable of petty and selfish behavior and if God is no better -- and often worse -- than man, what's the point of faith?

Thomas Mauer
05-14-2009, 04:55 PM
I've read it several times through, back when I was a serious Christian in pre-seminary training. One of the many things that led me to atheism.

I heard that happens to a lot of people studying theology.

RebootedCorpse
05-14-2009, 05:00 PM
I heard that happens to a lot of people studying theology.

I don't know how anyone studies comparative religion and remains a believer.

Ryan Elliott
05-14-2009, 05:04 PM
Well, the Bible was one of many things. One thing is when I did a critical reading of Job, which is the oldest book of the Bible. The conclusion I came to was that human morality trumps God's morality. That God is capable of petty and selfish behavior and if God is no better -- and often worse -- than man, what's the point of faith?


Yep. That sounds about right.

HOOKS
05-14-2009, 05:22 PM
That's what happened with me, as well. Started studying Christianity, and finding out all kinds of things that made me just take a step back and look at everything critically.

I will say this though: I appreciate Christianity for the morals it instilled in me, although I am positive I would have learned those if I were raised in an atheist household.

...

I'd love to hear Khrutch's thoughts on the original post.

Thomas Mauer
05-14-2009, 05:30 PM
That's what happened with me, as well. Started studying Christianity, and finding out all kinds of things that made me just take a step back and look at everything critically.

I will say this though: I appreciate Christianity for the morals it instilled in me, although I am positive I would have learned those if I were raised in an atheist household.

...

I'd love to hear Khrutch's thoughts on the original post.

This is true. Though I was baptized and confirmed, my family raised me more in the humanistic tradition, and the basic ground rules for human interaction are the same.

Khrutch
05-14-2009, 07:04 PM
I'd love to hear Khrutch's thoughts on the original post.

I've been reading this thread and trying to get here. I love the threads you start HOOKS, they're always so interesting.

First, let me say that I do not pretend to know and understand everything in the Bible. I can only answer as I have lived, studied and been taught up to this point in my life. With that said, here goes.

How closely do you follow the word of God as portrayed within the version of the Bible that you read?

I read the NIV because the language is easier to read, more modern. But I have studied the KJV extensively. I try to apply what I have learned to everything in my life, from the biggest to the smallest decision. If there are specific things you’d like to know I can answer more in detail.

If you do not follow it word for word, what made you decide which parts to follow and which parts to ignore?

The Bible is written for everyone and no one person can live it ‘word for word’. That’s impossible and God never intended for anyone to live it that way. God gave Israel 5 books to live by and he knew full well that they wouldn’t be able to do it. He did this as an example to future generations and to get them to look past the law. God wanted a personal relationship with them but they refused it in the wilderness. They wanted Moses to talk to them and not God so that’s what he gave them. It says that everyone must work out their own salvation ‘with fear and trembling’. There are absolutes in the Bible intended for everyone but there are many things that each of us has to work out as to how it does or doesn’t pertain to us in our daily lives. God created all of us as unique individuals and the Bible is written to where what each of us needs as an individual is there for us.

Do you feel there are parts of the Bible which may be flawed and no longer apply to modern life (i.e. slavery, homosexuality, etc)?

I do not believe the Bible to be flawed and it doesn’t contradict itself. God never changes, he has always been the same, but people change and have been changing continually from the first generation to the present. God has dealt with us in what is called ‘Dispensations’. As we change he gives us what we need to live and to get closer to him.

The two examples you brought up:

Slavery – there was a time in the Bible when God tolerated slavery, as a matter of a fact a master could actually beat his slave literally almost to death as long as he didn’t kill him. If he killed him he would be tried as a murdered. Why God allowed this I freely confess that I do not have that answer. I don’t know of a specific point in the Bible when slavery was no longer acceptable, perhaps someone else has that answer. For me personally slavery is never acceptable and I don’t believe it was by God either but he allowed it based on something in the human condition at the time that I am unaware of. Some may call that a copout, but as I said I don’t have that answer.

Homosexuality: God created Adam and Eve, a man and a woman. ‘Be fruitful and multiply’. He did not create a man and a man or a woman and a woman. God destroyed Sodom and Gomorra because of the sin of homosexuality. This issue with God is pretty cut and dry. There are many other examples as well.

While I’m at it:

Torture: Sin always reaps punishment, always. King David at times tortured his enemies. When Joshua led Israel into the ‘Promised Land’ there were times when God told them to kill every person. Every man, woman, child, and even all the animals because they were so corrupted by sin. God is a holy God and he hates sin. In our present time God deals with us accordingly to Grace because of Jesus’ sacrifice and that is how he has dealt with us since that sacrifice. But the time is coming when the door of Grace will be shut and the wrath of God will be poured out. In Revelation at the Battle of Armageddon Jesus himself will kill so many people, his enemies, that their blood will be as deep as a ‘horses bridle’. That’s what, 5 or 6 feet deep? God is the creator and he created us and thus has the right to tell us what to do, but he gave us the option to choose. But he set up the choices we have. God’s plan is a Kingship with Jesus as King, it is not a democracy. The rewards of accepting that Kingship cannot be measured and equally the punishment of not accepting that Kingship cannot be measured. I do not want anyone to be tortured, but that may be a consequence of the persons actions like when God told Joshua to destroy those he did. It was because of how they lived and the choices they made.

King David suffered many punishments because of his sin with Bathsheba.

And if you do pick and choose which verses to follow, do you feel such an act blasphemies to God and Jesus Christ?

No, as I said the Bible isn’t written for any one person to follow ‘word for word’. All of the word is his word to be followed. ‘Not one jot or tittle shall perish'. It is all his word and will endure forever, but not every ‘jot or tittle’ was intended for everyone. Example: The law of the Levites was not meant for anyone except the Levites of that time period.

As has already been stated, ‘Love God and love your neighbor as yourself’ the entire Bible hangs on these two things. Follow those and everything else, in time, will fall into place.

Ryan Elliott
05-14-2009, 07:12 PM
Slavery – there was a time in the Bible when God tolerated slavery, as a matter of a fact a master could actually beat his slave literally almost to death as long as he didn’t kill him. If he killed him he would be tried as a murdered. Why God allowed this I freely confess that I do not have that answer. I don’t know of a specific point in the Bible when slavery was no longer acceptable, perhaps someone else has that answer. For me personally slavery is never acceptable and I don’t believe it was by God either but he allowed it based on something in the human condition at the time that I am unaware of. Some may call that a copout, but as I said I don’t have that answer.

Homosexuality: God created Adam and Eve, a man and a woman. ‘Be fruitful and multiply’. He did not create a man and a man or a woman and a woman. God destroyed Sodom and Gomorra because of the sin of homosexuality. This issue with God is pretty cut and dry. There are many other examples as well.

So yeah, fuck God.

Doc Randy
05-14-2009, 07:15 PM
I do not believe the Bible to be flawed and it doesn’t contradict itself.

No rational person can honestly believe this.

Again, according to the Bible, how did Judas Iscariot die?




God destroyed Sodom and Gomorra because of the sin of homosexuality.

Most biblical scholars would disagree. The story of Sodom and Gamorra is primarily about hospitality and their hedonistic lifestyle while refusing to help the needy.

Joe Kalicki
05-14-2009, 08:00 PM
You'd have to be a pretty big douchebag to give people free will and then punish them for excercising it.

Morrison_Lad
05-14-2009, 08:02 PM
I'm an atheist, and honestly, I don't understand religion at all. The entire concept of "faith" seems utterly illogical and backwards to me. Why would I believe in something for which there is no actual evidence?

Anyhow, as to the Bible, I see it as a pretty scary and frightening relic. Does it have value? Sure, from literary stand-point. But from the point-of-view of guiding my life? No way.

I'd truly rather follow the examples of Superman, if I'm going to try and live up to a fictional character's life lessons.

Ryan Elliott
05-14-2009, 08:12 PM
No rational person can honestly believe this.

Again, according to the Bible, how did Judas Iscariot die?


Didn't he hang himself because he realized the "error in his ways?"

Doc Randy
05-14-2009, 09:13 PM
I was raised in a religious household to a family that is very active in their church.
I have no problem with religion or the Bible, but any intelligent person can recognize that believing the Bible or any religious text is 100% accurate and without flaws or errors leads to a very dangerous mindset of fundamentalism and then extremism.

And the grand irony is that the more fundamentalist and extremist the reader gets, the more they think everything is 100% accurate and they must behave exactly as it says in the book, the farther they seem to stray from the key message of love and charity.

The Hodag
05-14-2009, 09:33 PM
Question from an atheist who hasn't read the Bible except piecemeal: I've occasionally heard the passage cited that suggests prayer should be a private activity. Looked it up and it's from Jesus himself in Matthew 6:5-7...


And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Is this contradicted/complimented by other passages that suggest public prayer? I always wondered how folks squared that with such explicit instructions from the Main Man.

Ryan Elliott
05-14-2009, 09:46 PM
I was raised in a religious household to a family that is very active in their church.
I have no problem with religion or the Bible, but any intelligent person can recognize that believing the Bible or any religious text is 100% accurate and without flaws or errors leads to a very dangerous mindset of fundamentalism and then extremism.

And the grand irony is that the more fundamentalist and extremist the reader gets, the more they think everything is 100% accurate and they must behave exactly as it says in the book, the farther they seem to stray from the key message of love and charity.


What's the safest place to hide?

in sanity. :)

mario
05-15-2009, 06:12 AM
God demands a cream pie.

make that a t-shirt and watch the dollars come to you!

Jef UK
05-15-2009, 06:45 AM
As has already been stated, ‘Love God and love your neighbor as yourself’ the entire Bible hangs on these two things.

God instructs his people go to war or murder their neighbors repeatedly because of their faith in other gods throughout the Pentateuch, when he himself isn't the supposed agent of thier destruction.

Of course, really, they're stories passed down by oral tradition to justify the victories of warring tribes or then unexplainable diseases laying waste to cities and clans or what have you.

RickLM
05-15-2009, 07:22 AM
Question from an atheist who hasn't read the Bible except piecemeal: I've occasionally heard the passage cited that suggests prayer should be a private activity. Looked it up and it's from Jesus himself in Matthew 6:5-7...


And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Is this contradicted/complimented by other passages that suggest public prayer? I always wondered how folks squared that with such explicit instructions from the Main Man.



The context of the passage is important. He is condemning the religious charlatans (the Pharisees) who used public prayers as a showy display, rather than as a sincere religious expression. He then tells people, "Your attitude should be a complete contrast, such as making your prayers a private and personal thing."

Jesus himself prays publicly in the months and years after this sermon, so its not like he was against public prayer. He just hated the Pharisees' style and the way they manipulated religion.

Doc Randy
05-15-2009, 07:28 AM
The context of the passage is important. He is condemning the religious charlatans (the Pharisees) who used public prayers as a showy display, rather than as a sincere religious expression. He then tells people, "Your attitude should be a complete contrast, such as making your prayers a private and personal thing."

Jesus himself prays publicly in the months and years after this sermon, so its not like he was against public prayer. He just hated the Pharisees' style and the way they manipulated religion.

So he'd probably be opposed to huge opulent megachurches with rock'n'roll "spirit bands" and laser shows that rock out to Jesus.

RickLM
05-15-2009, 07:34 AM
So he'd probably be opposed to huge opulent megachurches with rock'n'roll "spirit bands" and laser shows that rock out to Jesus.


I think anyone who studies the life of Christ would have to seriously question most of what happens in megachurches. And there continues to be a dialogue within evangelicalism on the validity of megachurches; plenty of critics point to the materialism and the shallow version of Christianity that comes out the typical megachurch.

Thomas Mauer
05-15-2009, 07:36 AM
So he'd probably be opposed to huge opulent megachurches with rock'n'roll "spirit bands" and laser shows that rock out to Jesus.This is a good excuse to post these lyrics:



And if these words you do not heed
Your pocketbook just kinda might recede
When some man comes along and
Claims godly need
He will clean you out right through your
Tweed

That's right, remember there is a big
Difference between kneeling down
And bending over...
He's got twenty million dollars
In his heavenly bank account...
All from those chumps who was
Born again
Oh yeah, oh yeah

He's got seven limousines
And a private plane...
All for the use of his
Special friends
Oh yeah, oh yeah
He's got thousand-dollar suits
And a wembley tie...
Girls love to stroke it
While he's on the phone
Oh yeah, oh yeah

At the house of representatives
He's a groovy guy...
When he gives thanks
He is not alone...

He is dealin'
He is really dealin'
Irs can't determine
Where the hook is

It is easy with the bible
To pretend that
You're in show biz

They won't get him
They will never get him
For the naughty stuff
That he did

It is best in cases like this
To pretend that
You are stupid

He's got presidential help
All along the way

He says the grace
While the lawyers chew
Oh yeah
They sure do

And the govenors agree to say:
"he's a lovely man!";
He makes it easier for
Them to screw
All of you...
Yes, that's true!

'cause he helps put the fear of god
In the common man
Snatchin' up money
Everywhere he can
Oh yeah
Oh yeah

He's got twenty million dollars
In his heavenly bank account
You ain't got nothin', people
Tax the churches
You ain't got nothin', people
Tax the businesses owned by the churches
You ain't got nothin', people
Thank the man...oh yeah

Generic Poster
05-15-2009, 07:46 AM
Well, the Bible was one of many things. One thing is when I did a critical reading of Job, which is the oldest book of the Bible. The conclusion I came to was that human morality trumps God's morality. That God is capable of petty and selfish behavior and if God is no better -- and often worse -- than man, what's the point of faith?

The best evidence of God's petty and selfish behavior is his insatiable desire to be worshipped/loved. That's a human trait, not a divine one.

schizorabbit
05-15-2009, 07:49 AM
You'd have to be a pretty big douchebag to give people free will and then punish them for excercising it.

Was it Harlan Ellison who asked--I think it was in "Deathbird Stories"--"Why did God create The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, place it in the Garden with Adam and Eve, and THEN go out of his way to tell them about it" ?

schizorabbit
05-15-2009, 07:50 AM
The best evidence of God's petty and selfish behavior is his insatiable desire to be worshipped/loved. That's a human trait, not a divine one.

Don't forget the commandments: he's also a "jealous" god.

Joe Kalicki
05-15-2009, 07:56 AM
Don't forget the commandments: he's also a "jealous" god.

Which is weird, because if He's the only God, what does He care?

Ryudo
05-15-2009, 07:59 AM
So a discussion on the Bible turns into a discussion on God... I might have to reread this thread later. :)

Jef UK
05-15-2009, 08:15 AM
I think anyone who studies the life of Christ would have to seriously question most of what happens in megachurches. And there continues to be a dialogue within evangelicalism on the validity of megachurches; plenty of critics point to the materialism and the shallow version of Christianity that comes out the typical megachurch.

If only God could publish some sort of cogent document that would clear everything up. His word, say.

God is perfectly obtuse.

Jef UK
05-15-2009, 08:20 AM
Which is weird, because if He's the only God, what does He care?

It's quite clear in the earliest* passages of the Pentateuch that Yahweh is not the only god, and doesn't consider himself to be so. See: Ba'al.

*Historically, not sequentially--there are at least three different writers and accounts of the creation in the very first passages of Genesis, remember, all edited together, which contradict each other from sentence to sentence, even.

(How Christians who read the Bible all the time miss this stuff is beyond me.)

Generic Poster
05-15-2009, 08:24 AM
It's quite clear in the earliest* passages of the Pentateuch that Yahweh is not the only god, and doesn't consider himself to be so. See: Ba'al.

*Historically, not sequentially--there are at least three different writers and accounts of the creation in the very first passages of Genesis, remember, all edited together, which contradict each other from sentence to sentence, even.

(How Christians who read the Bible all the time miss this stuff is beyond me.)

Yeah - the commandment is that you should put no other gods before him. Early on it's clear that there are lots of gods. He also really hates that one goddess (Ashura? Something like that).

Ryudo
05-15-2009, 08:29 AM
It's quite clear in the earliest* passages of the Pentateuch that Yahweh is not the only god, and doesn't consider himself to be so. See: Ba'al.

*Historically, not sequentially--there are at least three different writers and accounts of the creation in the very first passages of Genesis, remember, all edited together, which contradict each other from sentence to sentence, even.

(How Christians who read the Bible all the time miss this stuff is beyond me.)

I assume you refer to Genesis 1: 26?


Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” (NKJV)

"Us" refers to the Trinity - that is, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The three "parts" of God.

schizorabbit
05-15-2009, 08:31 AM
I assume you refer to Genesis 1: 26?

(NKJV)

"Us" refers to the Trinity - that is, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The three "parts" of God.

That's retroactive interpretation/interpolation. As a once, God-fearing, Bible-thumping, door-knocking, chaplain-preaching Christian, I ask you to join the Dark Side, Ryudo. Join us.

Ryudo
05-15-2009, 08:45 AM
That's retroactive interpretation/interpolation. As a once, God-fearing, Bible-thumping, door-knocking, chaplain-preaching Christian, I ask you to join the Dark Side, Ryudo. Join us.

Sorry, buddy. I don't think my bosses would like it too much. :)

Drkemerld73
05-15-2009, 08:47 AM
That's retroactive interpretation/interpolation. As a once, God-fearing, Bible-thumping, door-knocking, chaplain-preaching Christian, I ask you to join the Dark Side, Ryudo. Join us.

http://www.geocities.com/westhollywood/4983/images/witches2.jpg

Rosemary's Baby
05-15-2009, 08:51 AM
Yeah - the commandment is that you should put no other gods before him. Early on it's clear that there are lots of gods. He also really hates that one goddess (Ashura? Something like that).

I can't believe I never thought of that.

Hate_Prime
05-15-2009, 09:04 AM
So a discussion on the Bible turns into a discussion on God... I might have to reread this thread later. :)

He's the main character, isn't he?

Hate_Prime
05-15-2009, 09:07 AM
Is God sexually attractive?

RickLM
05-15-2009, 09:13 AM
This thread is like having a Marxist critique your business plan.

Caley Tibbittz
05-15-2009, 12:04 PM
Then the god you claim exists can not exist, as he would not be all-powerful (perfect).

Just because we have free will doesn't mean that an omnipotent God can't take it away or influence it.

In Exodus, he hardens Pharoah's heart/mind/bastardliness/whatever, seemingly for the sole purpose of bringing the situation with the Jews to a head. So it seems Pharoah had free will most of the time, except when God decided he needed a nudge in a specific direction for God's purposes. Because otherwise Pharoah would have let the Jews go sooner, and the whole Red Sea thing would have been unnecessary and so would not have happened.

Mind you, I'm an Atheist reading the Bible for the first time, and aside from understanding that particular story perfectly, it makes no bloody sense to me -- allowing for the idea that there is a God, my idea of a loving God would be one that nudges Pharoah toward good, not hardheaded refusal to do the right thing just so God could make a spectacle of the Egyptians' death in defiance of God and his people

But almost 900 pages into the Old Testament, and all I've really seen so far is a lot of pro-Jew propaganda. I really don't understand why God, who in this book made all people, would even have a special Chosen People in the first place. It seems like a very exclusionary, racist, and human concept to me.

I guess all the nice people who lived good lives but before the sun god Ra instead of the One True God are burning in Hell for eternity. Which, I guess the Egyptians at least had the chance to refuse the Jewish religion. But what about the Native Americans living at that time? Not much chance to avoid damnation there... poor bastards.

This post has wandered almost as if it spent 40 years in the desert. Sorry.

Ben
05-15-2009, 12:48 PM
In Exodus, he hardens Pharoah's heart/mind/bastardliness/whatever, seemingly for the sole purpose of bringing the situation with the Jews to a head. So it seems Pharoah had free will most of the time, except when God decided he needed a nudge in a specific direction for God's purposes. Because otherwise Pharoah would have let the Jews go sooner, and the whole Red Sea thing would have been unnecessary and so would not have happened.Wait a fucking second. I already knew the Passover story was fucked up, but you're saying that God manipulated Pharoah, so He'd get to kill all those innocent babies and children? WTF

Henry!
05-15-2009, 12:49 PM
Just because we have free will doesn't mean that an omnipotent God can't take it away or influence it.

In Exodus, he hardens Pharoah's heart/mind/bastardliness/whatever, seemingly for the sole purpose of bringing the situation with the Jews to a head. So it seems Pharoah had free will most of the time, except when God decided he needed a nudge in a specific direction for God's purposes. Because otherwise Pharoah would have let the Jews go sooner, and the whole Red Sea thing would have been unnecessary and so would not have happened.

Mind you, I'm an Atheist reading the Bible for the first time, and aside from understanding that particular story perfectly, it makes no bloody sense to me -- allowing for the idea that there is a God, my idea of a loving God would be one that nudges Pharoah toward good, not hardheaded refusal to do the right thing just so God could make a spectacle of the Egyptians' death in defiance of God and his people

But almost 900 pages into the Old Testament, and all I've really seen so far is a lot of pro-Jew propaganda. I really don't understand why God, who in this book made all people, would even have a special Chosen People in the first place. It seems like a very exclusionary, racist, and human concept to me.

I guess all the nice people who lived good lives but before the sun god Ra instead of the One True God are burning in Hell for eternity. Which, I guess the Egyptians at least had the chance to refuse the Jewish religion. But what about the Native Americans living at that time? Not much chance to avoid damnation there... poor bastards.

This post has wandered almost as if it spent 40 years in the desert. Sorry.


You have to remember that the Old Testament was propoganda for the Jewish God, among other things. It was written (or, well, composed orally) by ancient Jews to describe the natual world as they saw it, as well to show that they had the correct God, and worship of the other Gods from rival tribes was bad times. So the Jewish people were the Chosen people because it was written for Jews and by Jews. It wasn't until much later that a Jew named Jesus started a radical new version of Judaism that sought to appeal to other tribes and nations.

As to your later points - unless I'm mistaken, the Jewish conception of Heaven and Hell is very different from that of Christians, in that they don't really have one. So the notion of the nice Egyptians going to hell because they don't belive in the Jewish God wasn't something that was on the ancient Jew's or Egyptian's mind. For the Old Testament, life on Earth was what mattered, not any afterlife.

Henry!
05-15-2009, 12:54 PM
Wait a fucking second. I already knew the Passover story was fucked up, but you're saying that God manipulated Pharoah, so He'd get to kill all those innocent babies and children? WTF


God is a cold bastard. One story has David having an affair with Batsheba, Bathsheba having a child, and God striking the baby with disease until it dies a week later.

Caley Tibbittz
05-15-2009, 03:14 PM
The story of Sodom and Gamorra is primarily about hospitality and their hedonistic lifestyle while refusing to help the needy.

They also wanted to rape people. So God hates gay rape, as he also seems to hate regular rape. But I don't know if this story can really be said to justify calling any and all homosexuality sin.

Caley Tibbittz
05-15-2009, 03:21 PM
Wait a fucking second. I already knew the Passover story was fucked up, but you're saying that God manipulated Pharoah, so He'd get to kill all those innocent babies and children? WTF

I don't even believe in God, but that story made me ill to read (as many stories in the Bible have). I think it's something about the idea that my Christian friends (and I have two very good Christian friends, one of which recommended the reader-friendly Bible I'm currently reading) look to these horror stories as a guide to morality and justice.

And I'm not being insulting here; I have never had more respect for Christians than I do now, having gotten to know some personally -- these are genuinely nice, giving people -- and I have never been more confused than I am now by what they believe their morality to be based on. I thought that by actually reading the book, everything would make more sense, not less.

RebootedCorpse
05-15-2009, 03:21 PM
Who here has ever done any witnessing/sinning souls for Jesus?
I have.

Thomas Mauer
05-15-2009, 03:25 PM
Who here has ever done any witnessing/sinning souls for Jesus?
I have.

I've been present when it happened with a wheelchair bound lady. A whole group "prayed over" her and when she couldn't get up afterward, the leader said that either she didn't believe in her heart of hearts, or someone else among those present wasn't genuine.

mike black
05-15-2009, 03:27 PM
Oh, so it only took three pages for this thread to go from "Let's have a thoughtful discussion about Christianity" to "Your chosen path in life is fucked."

That was a bit slower than I expected.

RebootedCorpse
05-15-2009, 03:31 PM
I've been present when it happened with a wheelchair bound lady. A whole group "prayed over" her and when she couldn't get up afterward, the leader said that either she didn't believe in her heart of hearts, or someone else among those present wasn't genuine.

It's always a bad sign when you have to believe something in order to "see" the "proof" of your beliefs.

Ryan Elliott
05-15-2009, 03:34 PM
Oh, so it only took three pages for this thread to go from "Let's have a thoughtful discussion about Christianity" to "Your chosen path in life is fucked."

That was a bit slower than I expected.


Kind of hard to have a thoughtful discussion about something when that something doesn't really require or want any thought at all.


When you start really examining this stuff intellectually, it's difficult not to just go "this is fucking bullshit."

Or, "this is fucking illogical bullshit."

Sometimes it just can't be helped.

Ryan Elliott
05-15-2009, 03:35 PM
I've been present when it happened with a wheelchair bound lady. A whole group "prayed over" her and when she couldn't get up afterward, the leader said that either she didn't believe in her heart of hearts, or someone else among those present wasn't genuine.


I wish I could be present at one of these.

Morrison_Lad
05-15-2009, 03:37 PM
I wish I could be present at one of these.

What? You don't what the poor lady to walk again?

You're a big meanie.

Thomas Mauer
05-15-2009, 03:38 PM
It's always a bad sign when you have to believe something in order to "see" the "proof" of your beliefs.

I felt really bad for her.


I wish I could be present at one of these.

Befriend a Pentecostal and ask to tag along when an evangelical minister makes a stop at their church on a "missionary circuit." And if afterward you can tag along to a private prayer meeting, you'll probably have your chance.

Ryan Elliott
05-15-2009, 03:42 PM
What? You don't what the poor lady to walk again?

You're a big meanie.

I'm not the one claiming she can walk if she prays to me. *points to the sky* ;)


I felt really bad for her.



Befriend a Pentecostal and ask to tag along when an evangelical minister makes a stop at their church on a "missionary circuit." And if afterward you can tag along to a private prayer meeting, you'll probably have your chance.

Hmmm...sounds like a plan.

Brad N.
05-15-2009, 03:51 PM
Who here has ever done any witnessing/sinning souls for Jesus?
I have.

:wave:

Brad N.
05-15-2009, 03:52 PM
I wish I could be present at one of these.

I've been to several.

Ryan Elliott
05-15-2009, 03:54 PM
I've been to several.


Is it as funny as I think it is?

RebootedCorpse
05-15-2009, 04:31 PM
Didn't he hang himself because he realized the "error in his ways?"

"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (MATT 27:5)

"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (ACTS 1:18 )

Ryan Elliott
05-15-2009, 04:36 PM
"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (MATT 27:5)

"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (ACTS 1:18 )


So he either hanged himself, or he threw himself off a cliff?

RebootedCorpse
05-15-2009, 04:41 PM
So he either hanged himself, or he threw himself off a cliff?

Either way, his bowels were emptied.

Ryan Elliott
05-15-2009, 04:42 PM
Either way, his bowels were emptied.


Nice.


Nothing like a good deboweling.

mike black
05-15-2009, 04:59 PM
Kind of hard to have a thoughtful discussion about something when that something doesn't really require or want any thought at all.


When you start really examining this stuff intellectually, it's difficult not to just go "this is fucking bullshit."

Or, "this is fucking illogical bullshit."

Sometimes it just can't be helped.

Yes, but that doesn't preclude acting like an adult.

Then again, starting the thread off by going "I hope this achieves the intellectual level of our political threads" was most likely a bad idea.

Ryan Elliott
05-15-2009, 05:00 PM
Yes, but that doesn't preclude acting like an adult.

Then again, starting the thread off by going "I hope this achieves the intellectual level of our political threads" was most likely a bad idea.


Tell that to the people who pray to an imaginary friend every night before bedtime.

mike black
05-15-2009, 05:04 PM
Tell that to the people who pray to an imaginary friend every night before bedtime.

Aaaaaand my point is proven.

Ryan Elliott
05-15-2009, 05:04 PM
Aaaaaand my point is proven.


What point? I'm agreeing with you.


I just don't care.

RebootedCorpse
05-15-2009, 05:05 PM
Yes, but that doesn't preclude acting like an adult.

Then again, starting the thread off by going "I hope this achieves the intellectual level of our political threads" was most likely a bad idea.

:roll:

Ryan Elliott
05-15-2009, 05:20 PM
:roll:


Hmmm...*puffs tobacco pipe, strokes goatee* Yes, yes. Good point corpse, old boy. Yes. Very good point indeed.

RebootedCorpse
05-15-2009, 05:23 PM
Hmmm...*puffs tobacco pipe, strokes goatee* Yes, yes. Good point corpse, old boy. Yes. Very good point indeed.

mmm...yes, yes...
http://www.aspipes.org/images/home/basil.jpg

half guard
05-15-2009, 05:26 PM
I've been present when it happened with a wheelchair bound lady. A whole group "prayed over" her and when she couldn't get up afterward, the leader said that either she didn't believe in her heart of hearts, or someone else among those present wasn't genuine.

Those groups are some of the worst sects of fanatical Christianity; manipulating others and belittling them and their faith when the leader's magic tricks don't produce results. They are the kings / queens of passing the spiritual buck: "if it doesn't work, then either you or someone else here doesn't have enough faith".

It's the same kind of fanatical brainwashing that you see in "Jesus Camp" or any run of the mill TBN "Prosperity Gospel" shows. Empty your bank accounts, fund my coffers, believe everything I say no matter how badly I've twisted a particular scripture out of context, and when it all fails, blame yourself because it CERTAINLY can't be my fault since I'm anointed and therefore untouchable!!!!

It's sickening.

This doesn't represent the entirety of Christianity, but it does make up the vast majority of mainstream popular Christianity. Charlatans like TD Jakes, Creflo Dollar, Kenneth Copeland, the Crouches, Jesse Duplantis, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, etc pollute the TV / Radio and the ignorant masses eat it up.

Ryan Elliott
05-15-2009, 05:26 PM
mmm...yes, yes...
http://www.aspipes.org/images/home/basil.jpg


Great Scott, Holmes! I think you've solved the case!

http://classicmovies.webs.com/nigel%20bruce%2001%20500.jpg

JimboX
05-15-2009, 05:27 PM
I think you two are the reason we can't have nice things.

half guard
05-15-2009, 05:28 PM
What point? I'm agreeing with you.


I just don't care.

His point is that you can have a different belief than someone else and not have to be such a douche about it.

Ryan Elliott
05-15-2009, 05:29 PM
I think you two are the reason we can't have nice things.


http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a87/Hellboy072/WhySoSeriousBanner2.jpg

Ryan Elliott
05-15-2009, 05:30 PM
His point is that you can have a different belief than someone else and not have to be such a douche about it.


What part of "I just don't care" don't you understand sir?!

http://classicmovies.webs.com/nigel%20bruce%2001%20500.jpg

RebootedCorpse
05-15-2009, 05:32 PM
I think you two are the reason we can't have nice things.

Man, do I not miss that BenBo "classic".

half guard
05-15-2009, 05:34 PM
What part of "I just don't care" don't you understand sir?!

http://classicmovies.webs.com/nigel%20bruce%2001%20500.jpg

See that's part of the "being a douche" thing I was talking about.

I have my own issues with modern Christianity, but I don't feel the need to belittle and ostracize people who embrace it. I know you're young and sowing your "I'm edgy" seeds, but is it really necessary to act this way? Have a little more respect for others.

Ryan Elliott
05-15-2009, 05:45 PM
See that's part of the "being a douche" thing I was talking about.

I have my own issues with modern Christianity, but I don't feel the need to belittle and ostracize people who embrace it. I know you're young and sowing your "I'm edgy" seeds, but is it really necessary to act this way? Have a little more respect for others.


Why I NEVER!

http://classicmovies.webs.com/nigel%20bruce%2001%20500.jpg

Thomas Mauer
05-15-2009, 06:10 PM
Joyce Meyer

She was the one I saw. Preaching about love and community and eventually she passed around the hat to collect.

Thomas Mauer
05-15-2009, 06:12 PM
Why I NEVER!

http://classicmovies.webs.com/nigel%20bruce%2001%20500.jpg

He's right. There's no need to clown around with this topic. If anything, it's counter productive.

Ryan Elliott
05-15-2009, 06:16 PM
He's right. There's no need to clown around with this topic. If anything, it's counter productive.


No, no. I agree. I'm sorry. I'll stop.















http://classicmovies.webs.com/nigel%20bruce%2001%20500.jpg

Jason California
05-15-2009, 07:38 PM
Would you say that people who believe in God are stupid Ryan?

Ryan Elliott
05-15-2009, 07:40 PM
Would you say that people who believe in God are stupid Ryan?


Some of them are.


But I would just say that the belief in any god is stupid. Just the actual belief. Not the person.


Run, run as fast as you can. :)

WAKKAJAWAKKA
05-15-2009, 07:58 PM
Over the course of the last year or so I've been on this board, I noticed in just about every serious thread on politics the topic of Christianity and the Bible comes up but there has never really been an exclusive discussion on the Christian Bible and the merits and critiques of it.

So let's talk it out, hopefully with as much honesty and respect as most of the political discussions we have here.

The reason I chose the Christian faith and the Holy Bible is because with most of the board being based in America, many of us are most familiar with the scripture held within the Christian Bible. Many concerns regarding policies past and present are also coming to a head in our daily conversations which ties into scripture, and may affect our future very very soon.

For the believers: how closely do you follow the word of God as portrayed within the version of the Bible that you read? If you do not follow it word for word, what made you decide which parts to follow and which parts to ignore? Do you feel there are parts of the Bible which may be flawed and no longer apply to modern life (i.e. slavery, homosexuality, etc)? And if you do pick and choose which verses to follow, do you feel such an act blasphemies to God and Jesus Christ?

For the non-believers: are there any tenants held within that you believe in? Do you feel that the Bible is flawed because of the scripture held within or because of the practices of the Christian religion itself? Do you feel it is significant at least in the historical sense? And if you were once a believer, what made you decide to leave the faith? And would you ever return?

Havent Read The Entire Thing. Mostly Cause I Belive It Was Just Written By Whoever Was In Charge At The Time(s)

Wayno.

Jason California
05-15-2009, 08:15 PM
Some of them are.


But I would just say that the belief in any god is stupid. Just the actual belief. Not the person.


Run, run as fast as you can. :)


On a level of 1-10, how stupid is it?

Ryan Elliott
05-15-2009, 08:19 PM
On a level of 1-10, how stupid is it?


Blindly believing in something that doesn't exist based on absolutely no evidence at all?


Pretty high up.

Jason California
05-15-2009, 08:22 PM
Blindly believing in something that doesn't exist based on absolutely no evidence at all?


Pretty high up.


That is why I gave you a point scale. 7, 8, 9, 10?

And do you equate any belief in God as "Blindly believing in something that doesn't exist based on absolutely no evidence at all">

Ryan Elliott
05-15-2009, 08:26 PM
That is why I gave you a point scale. 7, 8, 9, 10?

And do you equate any belief in God as "Blindly believing in something that doesn't exist based on absolutely no evidence at all">


Hard to rate it without something to compare it by. Probably about an 8. Maybe 9 depending on my mood that day.


Yep. Pretty much. Except for the Native Americans. Of course.

Jason California
05-15-2009, 08:32 PM
Hard to rate it without something to compare it by. Probably about an 8. Maybe 9 depending on my mood that day.


Yep. Pretty much. Except for the Native Americans. Of course.


Why are the Indians special?

Ryan Elliott
05-15-2009, 08:34 PM
Why are the Indians special?


Ask Ashwin.

I'm talking about Native Americans.

Jason California
05-15-2009, 08:38 PM
Ask Ashwin.

I'm talking about Native Americans.


Yeah, Native Americans call themselves Indians too.

Ryan Elliott
05-15-2009, 08:40 PM
Yeah, Native Americans call themselves Indians too.


That's AWESOME for them. :lol:

Jason California
05-15-2009, 08:41 PM
That's AWESOME for them. :lol:


So again, what makes them so special?

Ryan Elliott
05-15-2009, 08:42 PM
So again, what makes them so special?


Haha their reverence for mother mars...I mean Earth.

Jason California
05-15-2009, 08:44 PM
Haha their reverence for mother mars...I mean Earth.


Hmm...OK.


What do you think about people who with no malice think gays should not be married because their faith tells them so?