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Lord Jermaine Retail
06-20-2005, 06:56 PM
I am like this close to saying "Ok, Infinite Crisis, you win. I give up." This thing is too big. Its overwhelming. As a fan and especially as a retailer. Everything has to do with everything. DC expects everyone to be aware of everything (yet is still slow on the tpbs but not selected reprints). Five multi-part mini series, any one of which in the past would have been the summer event, 7 Soldier which is apparently setting the groundwork for the post-Infinite Crisis DC (Morrison = Julie Schwartz? :scared: ), and a good 80% of monthly super hero comics having very real tie ins/ lead ins. Come on. Granted this so far is not a crap storyline like say Genesis or a fizzle like Worlds at War. This is the kind of thing we usually complain we never get. Things actually happening and reasonably tight continuity between titles. But is anyone else feeling kind of "BEEYARGHHH!" about it? Especially after reading this week's solicitations (don't read if you don't wanna know):

Batman #546
The startling revelation of the Red Hood's identity leads Batman on a quest for answers. Could it really be Jason Todd cutting a swath through the Gotham City underworld? There's only one place to find the answer to that question: the Gotham graveyard!

Nightwing #112
Dick Grayson's gone undercover. Maybe too far undercover! When the criminals whose trust he's earned stab him in the back, the parts of his life that have been under wraps come to the surface. And why is Deathstroke the Terminator at the head of Dick's crime world?

Action Comics #831
A Villains United tie-in! Get ready for Superman vs. Black Adam -- and Doctor Psycho will be there to pick up the pieces.

Adv of Superman #644
After the shocking revelations of Identity Crisis and JLA: ³Crisis of Conscience," Superman confronts Zatanna

Superman #221
Superman's being pulled in all directions in an issue that ties into all four miniseries springing from Countdown To Infinite Crisis! Omac is running loose. Villains are united. Magic is everywhere. Naturally, it's a perfect time for Bizarro to show up!

Bloodof the Demon #7
A special Day of Vengeance tie-in! The sadistic Spectre has been trying to rid the DCU of its practitioners of magic -- and now he sets his sights on Etrigan the Demon

Firestorm #17
A special Villains United tie-in! Trapped in a remote power installation by the Society, Firestorm -- and a mysterious girl called Gehenna -- must defeat Black Adam's army of supervillains to escape

Green Arrow #54
Part 1 of the 4-part "Heading into the Light," spinning out of the events of Identity Crisis. Green Arrow faces off against an old villain who's suddenly become much more deadly. His name is Doctor Light, and he wants revenge on the heroes who violated his mind! Guest-starring Black Lightning and the JLA!

JLA #118 and #119
The two concluding issues of the 5-part "Crisis of Conscience," written by Geoff Johns and Allan Heinberg double-ship in September! In JLA #118, the knockdown-dragout battle between Martian Manhunter and Despero continues, as the fight that began on the JLA Watchtower ends on Earth! Meanwhile, Superman intervenes in the Justice League's vote to mindwipe the Secret Society of Super Villains, and Zatanna makes a fateful decision.

And in #119, the JLA must face off against Despero in Wayne Manor! But in order to stop Despero, the team will be forced to turn against one of its own...

JSA #77
Alan Scott pays a visit to Hal Jordan as Hal prepares to leave Earth with Donna Troy. But Alan has one last favor to ask Hal, and it will be one of the hardest things a Green Lantern has ever tried to accomplish!

Manhunter #14
The secret of Project Manhunter is revealed -- and so is the identity of Kate Spencer's long-lost father!

Outsiders #28
Reeling from the mind-blowing events of "The Insider" story arc, the team mourns a lost comrade and decides you can't go home again...ever! .

Wonder Woman #221
The power of OMAC comes after the Amazing Amazon! In the aftermath of the recent events which have shaken the DCU, Wonder Woman goes on global patrol, saving lives and spreading her message of peace wherever she can. But Brother I and the Omac Project have other plans...

This isn't counting the mini series like Omac project that will just be winding down or titles like Hawkman who's tie-in is less overt. I mean come on. Normally this is to be expected in comics at this time of year but not to this degree or as prolonged. Will things really be this way into next year and beyond? Good content, but man I feel like a casualty of the market share wars.

Oh and as a retailer I was really disappointed in Newsarama's article on exactly how much it would cost to participate in DC and Marvel's events. Its never a good idea to show people how much they are spending on comics. And so soon after prices went up. Bad Newsarama, bad!

Mike Haseloff
06-20-2005, 06:59 PM
Weren't you saying this in the Geoff Johns thread?


Stop ignoring the truth dealing.
It's a loose net that sees everything fit snugly together.
It's not a marching order to go and buy every comic in the store, for fear of being uninformed and confused when reading Outsiders #19.



And I'm still an advocate of common sense.
Just put two and two together if you missed an issue. For crying out loud, do you really need someone to hold your hand through a comic?! :roll:

Raphael J
06-20-2005, 07:04 PM
Weren't you saying this in the Geoff Johns thread?


Stop ignoring the truth dealing.
It's a loose net that sees everything fit snugly together.
It's not a marching order to go and buy every comic in the store, for fear of being uninformed and confused when reading Outsiders #19.



And I'm still an advocate of common sense.
Just put two and two together if you missed an issue. For crying out loud, do you really need someone to hold your hand through a comic?! :roll:

No, but it's good to understand/get the whole story. Of course, not every part is necessary, but to get the full depth of the event is what we as fans have always wanted. So no, we don't need someone to hold our comic, but we are allowed to feel overwhelmed. I'm reading a lot of these books and even still, it's a lot of stuff to get a hold of.

In the end, it's just a difference of opinion. I like reading the full story, but this is insane. This is literally, a universe spanning event, with more than just single-issue tie-ins. It's not like you have to pick up the extra issue of Teen Titans, it's pick up the issue of Batman that led to the events of the Teen Titans issue, which will be resolved in Outsiders, etc.

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-20-2005, 07:05 PM
Weren't you saying this in the Geoff Johns thread?


Stop ignoring the truth dealing.
It's a loose net that sees everything fit snugly together.
It's not a marching order to go and buy every comic in the store, for fear of being uninformed and confused when reading Outsiders #19.



And I'm still an advocate of common sense.
Just put two and two together if you missed an issue. For crying out loud, do you really need someone to hold your hand through a comic?! :roll:
That's the thing though, unlike other such events in the past most of these main items have been worthwhile. Meaning that its not a completist thing its an enjoying the event thing and wanting to be involved in the big picture. But its like DC is putting everything into one big power shot.

I promise you I don't need hand holding. I just do not want people to say "you know what, this is ridiculous and expensive. I'm out." That's not the result we want.

Smokinblues
06-20-2005, 07:06 PM
the only thing that gets me is that marvel catches infinite shit for ONE summer event with a handful of minis attched to it.

But DC gets a pass basically having every major book in their universe tie in. on top of 5 minis that lead into a mini.

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-20-2005, 07:08 PM
No, but it's good to understand/get the whole story. Of course, not every part is necessary, but to get the full depth of the event is what we as fans have always wanted. So no, we don't need someone to hold our comic, but we are allowed to feel overwhelmed. I'm reading a lot of these books and even still, it's a lot of stuff to get a hold of.

In the end, it's just a difference of opinion. I like reading the full story, but this is insane. This is literally, a universe spanning event, with more than just single-issue tie-ins. It's not like you have to pick up the extra issue of Teen Titans, it's pick up the issue of Batman that led to the events of the Teen Titans issue, which will be resolved in Outsiders, etc.
As I recall, Crisis on Infinite Earths was a twelve part story but even then not everything tied in to the level DC is tying in now. Not nearly.

Mike Haseloff
06-20-2005, 07:09 PM
I promise you I don't need hand holding. I just do not want people to say "you know what, this is ridiculous and expensive. I'm out." That's not the result we want.If someone says that, just repeat what I said, and slap them around.


And steal their wallet as payment for the next couple of months worth of comics you will TELL THEM they're buying.



And most importantly, be entirely uninformed.
I didn't really read your post. I just made wild assumptions and started yelling.

Do that...

... and maybe rip your shirt off too, just to put the fear of God in them.

Ben Rosen
06-20-2005, 07:10 PM
i know what you mean. if i'm not interested in the direction the entire dc "universe" is going in, i can't read any of the books. so i don't. thank god for wildstorm and vertigo.

Flonk
06-20-2005, 07:11 PM
I am like this close to saying "Ok, Infinite Crisis, you win. I give up." This thing is too big. Its overwhelming. As a fan and especially as a retailer. Everything has to do with everything. DC expects everyone to be aware of everything (yet is still slow on the tpbs but not selected reprints). Five multi-part mini series, any one of which in the past would have been the summer event, 7 Soldier which is apparently setting the groundwork for the post-Infinite Crisis DC (Morrison = Julie Schwartz? :scared: ), and a good 80% of monthly super hero comics having very real tie ins/ lead ins. Come on. Granted this so far is not a crap storyline like say Genesis or a fizzle like Worlds at War. This is the kind of thing we usually complain we never get. Things actually happening and reasonably tight continuity between titles. But is anyone else feeling kind of "BEEYARGHHH!" about it? Especially after reading this week's solicitations (don't read if you don't wanna know):


I agree.

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-20-2005, 07:11 PM
the only thing that gets me is that marvel catches infinite shit for ONE summer event with a handful of minis attched to it.

But DC gets a pass basically having every major book in their universe tie in. on top of 5 minis that lead into a mini.
DC started much sooner too so we have a better idea of what quality and importance the tie-ins can be. With House its way too soon to tell and therefore too early to complain. But in all honesty Crisis is too big of a beast for House to drag down. House may turn out to be the better free standing event (I seriously doubt you can buy and understand Infinite if you have not been aware of the stories from Identity on), but Infinite is a universe wide thing that apparantly (as of this Morrison news) is changing the face of that universe after all.

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-20-2005, 07:14 PM
If someone says that, just repeat what I said, and slap them around.


And steal their wallet as payment for the next couple of months worth of comics you will TELL THEM they're buying.



And most importantly, be entirely uninformed.
I didn't really read your post. I just made wild assumptions and started yelling.

Do that...

... and maybe rip your shirt off too, just to put the fear of God in them.
Didn't read my..? What?! So you just..and you didn't even.... :hulk: RAaagh! InterneeeeeetttT!

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-20-2005, 07:15 PM
I agree.
Its good, don't get me wrong, but to do all this for this long and 7 soldiers is over kill. And I don't really understand why its happening now. But DC won the market share so it is working.

Mike Haseloff
06-20-2005, 07:17 PM
Didn't read my..? What?! So you just..and you didn't even.... :hulk: RAaagh! InterneeeeeetttT!I'm on the warpath today, Jack!


Tear your shirt off to put the fear of God in them.
Such a peculiar phrase. I've always thought of torn t-shirts as teachers.

ritter
06-20-2005, 07:19 PM
the only thing that gets me is that marvel catches infinite shit for ONE summer event with a handful of minis attched to it.

But DC gets a pass basically having every major book in their universe tie in. on top of 5 minis that lead into a mini.
Yeah please why is that. Marvel straight out tells you the story is in House of M and teh tie ins are just the characters in teh world. I mean the big three at Dc are basically another mini in their own right. It is ridiculous.

ritter
06-20-2005, 07:22 PM
i know what you mean. if i'm not interested in the direction the entire dc "universe" is going in, i can't read any of the books. so i don't. thank god for wildstorm and vertigo.
Yeah the I know what you mean. But sadly i read batman. Know I have this dragging story that won't end by a writer I don't like writing a character I absolutely love. At least If i hate house of M ican just skip 3 issues and get back to regularly scheduled Marvel fun.

Mike Haseloff
06-20-2005, 07:30 PM
i know what you mean. if i'm not interested in the direction the entire dc "universe" is going in, i can't read any of the books. so i don't. thank god for wildstorm and vertigo.That's ridiculous, and the kind of thing I'm yelling and screaming about.

One book isn't dragging another a long, and there isn't a giant fish net raking everything in the same direction.

The DC universe is cohesive right now, that's all.
Everyone's still doing things their own way, in their own space.

Can't is wrong.
Won't is more like it.

You should be ashamed of yourself.
The only way you'll ever get into heaven now is if you kill death and reboot heaven in your own image - or buy lots of DC comics. :no:

And just picture me tearing my shirt into tiny shreds somewhere in the middle of all that. :mad:

Ben Rosen
06-20-2005, 07:32 PM
That's ridiculous, and the kind of thing I'm yelling and screaming about.

One book isn't dragging another a long, and there isn't a giant fish net raking everything in the same direction.

The DC universe is cohesive right now, that's all.
Everyone's still doing things their own way, in their own space.

Can't is wrong.
Won't is more like it.

You should be ashamed of yourself.
The only way you'll ever get into heaven now is if you kill death and reboot heaven in your own image - or buy lots of DC comics. :no:

And just picture me tearing my shirt into tiny shreds somewhere in the middle of all that. :mad:


but all the books have the same kind of attitude it seems and marvel to me, is doing much better job of having diverse superhero books. but my pull list is shrinking, both marvel and dc.

Mike Haseloff
06-20-2005, 07:35 PM
but all the books have the same kind of attitude it seems and marvel to me, is doing much better job of having diverse superhero books. but my pull list is shrinking, both marvel and dc.Okay, you're just plain wrong. So that makes life really easy! :D


I bet you're one of those people who thinks DC is all about the capes too, boo hoo. :magneto:

I'd say the only definitive difference that really stands out between the two, is the degree of thought and quality going into DC books right now.




Any knock backs I might be receiving from DC should be disregarded.

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-20-2005, 07:38 PM
That's ridiculous, and the kind of thing I'm yelling and screaming about.

One book isn't dragging another a long, and there isn't a giant fish net raking everything in the same direction.

The DC universe is cohesive right now, that's all.
Everyone's still doing things their own way, in their own space.

Can't is wrong.
Won't is more like it.

You should be ashamed of yourself.
The only way you'll ever get into heaven now is if you kill death and reboot heaven in your own image - or buy lots of DC comics. :no:

And just picture me tearing my shirt into tiny shreds somewhere in the middle of all that. :mad:
I disagree. Things are headed somewhere. Is Doom Patrol headed somewhere? No. But the main titles are definitely all part of an editorial program. I'm sure you can read them all seperately and pretend nothing is happening. Or you could put them straight into a polypropelyne bag with an acid free board and skip the reading entirely. Its only as much of an inconvenience as you let it become. But the program is interesting so there is a draw to get as much content as you can.

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-20-2005, 07:40 PM
but all the books have the same kind of attitude it seems and marvel to me, is doing much better job of having diverse superhero books. but my pull list is shrinking, both marvel and dc.
Comics as a whole are too good right now for your pull list to be shrinking. Changing maybe but shrinking? Why is that?

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-20-2005, 07:41 PM
Okay, you're just plain wrong. So that makes life really easy! :D


I bet you're one of those people who thinks DC is all about the capes too, boo hoo. :magneto:

I'd say the only definitive difference that really stands out between the two, is the degree of thought and quality going into DC books right now.




Any knock backs I might be receiving from DC should be disregarded.
I lov emy Marvel super heroes but DC is running a better Marvel universe style of continuity than Marvel is. Granted Marvel is getting there slowly and I think House will be a catalyst to a return to the Marvel universe way that set Marvel apart from other brands, but DC got a huge head start on it.

Mike Haseloff
06-20-2005, 08:05 PM
I disagree. Things are headed somewhere. Is Doom Patrol headed somewhere? No. But the main titles are definitely all part of an editorial program. I'm sure you can read them all seperately and pretend nothing is happening. Or you could put them straight into a polypropelyne bag with an acid free board and skip the reading entirely. Its only as much of an inconvenience as you let it become. But the program is interesting so there is a draw to get as much content as you can.Common goal, perhaps, but it's a broad goal, and that common goal doesn't change the diversity in the stories, styles and characters.

That's a ridiculously broad assumption, that's even less informed than my response to the initial post in this thread. :no:


I lov emy Marvel super heroes but DC is running a better Marvel universe style of continuity than Marvel is. Granted Marvel is getting there slowly and I think House will be a catalyst to a return to the Marvel universe way that set Marvel apart from other brands, but DC got a huge head start on it.I agree, it's almost like both sides have swapped roles!

The way I remember it, as a kid, DC were the guys who were a bit all over the place, with lots of big events. And Marvel were the guys that had a nice sense of continuity, and cohesiveness.

Now, not only is that changing on both sides, I think DC have just run away with quality. They're hitting all the right notes for me, while Marvel is hanging on by DD, Nightcrawler and She-Hulk.

I, and this is a hefty criticism around here, but I honestly think, if New Avengers is Marvel's big leader of the pack, something is seriously wrong.
The numbers don't necessitate a change, but I honestly think that's trouble waiting to happen. I'm not seeing any creative leaps or bounds at the house of ideas. :(


I've mentioned it before - I pretty much grew up as a Marvel kid/teen, but now I'm a bit worried for them, as I sit deeply intrenched in the DC camp.

Humphrey_Lee
06-20-2005, 08:20 PM
I'm not getting overwhelmed by Crisis, but I am getting slightly annoyed. Overall, yes, I think they are doing a good job of integration, but at the same time, I'm really starting to hate seeing so many books sidetracked due to this project. I was really hoping this was going to stay relatively contained to the mini-series, with the occasional nod in books that had little overall contribution, and bigger ramifications in the bigger DC books like JLA, JSA, and so on. But dammit, now we're seeing stuff like OMAC's in effin' MANHUNTER, Talia showing up out of nowhere in GOTHAM KNIGHTS, and so on and so forth. And the worst of it all? Seeing "An OMAC project tie-in" on the cover, and then inside that "tie-in" is two panels of an undercover OMAC with his eyes glowing... wahoo... thanks a bunch.

I still think we're going to get a really good story out of this, and it's not like I have to go out of my way to find extra cash for these books because the quality on most of them was already high enough that I was buying them, but I just want them to ease the bloody hell off a bit so I can get a nice little coherent story inside the book.

End rant :)

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-20-2005, 08:27 PM
I'm not getting overwhelmed by Crisis, but I am getting slightly annoyed. Overall, yes, I think they are doing a good job of integration, but at the same time, I'm really starting to hate seeing so many books sidetracked due to this project. I was really hoping this was going to stay relatively contained to the mini-series, with the occasional nod in books that had little overall contribution, and bigger ramifications in the bigger DC books like JLA, JSA, and so on. But dammit, now we're seeing stuff like OMAC's in effin' MANHUNTER, Talia showing up out of nowhere in GOTHAM KNIGHTS, and so on and so forth. And the worst of it all? Seeing "An OMAC project tie-in" on the cover, and then inside that "tie-in" is two panels of an undercover OMAC with his eyes glowing... wahoo... thanks a bunch.

I still think we're going to get a really good story out of this, and it's not like I have to go out of my way to find extra cash for these books because the quality on most of them was already high enough that I was buying them, but I just want them to ease the bloody hell off a bit so I can get a nice little coherent story inside the book.

End rant :)
yeah, I don't care for all of the labeled "tie-ins" outside of JSA many of those have been weak. And the Action Comics issue was not labeled yet it had more to do with Villains than Nightwing did. I was told that editors decide what gets a label and what doesn't. Action should have had one.

JABSEN
06-20-2005, 08:34 PM
DC started much sooner too so we have a better idea of what quality and importance the tie-ins can be. With House its way too soon to tell and therefore too early to complain. But in all honesty Crisis is too big of a beast for House to drag down. House may turn out to be the better free standing event (I seriously doubt you can buy and understand Infinite if you have not been aware of the stories from Identity on), but Infinite is a universe wide thing that apparantly (as of this Morrison news) is changing the face of that universe after all.Can I ask you as a retailer.How do you feel about them slapping the IC labels on some titles that don't seem to deserve it?Like the latest Nightwing on the covers says Villians united tie-in.But ewhere was the tie-in?(I dug the issue BTW,just saying)

I actually thought the latest Action Comics was more of a tie-in.

So it's all confusing

Humphrey_Lee
06-20-2005, 08:37 PM
yeah, I don't care for all of the labeled "tie-ins" outside of JSA many of those have been weak. And the Action Comics issue was not labeled yet it had more to do with Villains than Nightwing did. I was told that editors decide what gets a label and what doesn't. Action should have had one.

Yea, stuff like that just out of nowhere or just stuff that's a couple pages that throws off the pace of a story that's part of a different line in the book. Plus their own continuity between books is slipping because of not only this, but because of late shipping and whatnot. I can only imagine the amount of effort it's taking on the part of the editors to make this all work, but there's just stuff that should not be happening. Like seriously, I should not have to read Wonder Woman to find out that the Flash's most dangerous enemy Zoom has escaped prison...

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-20-2005, 08:38 PM
Can I ask you as a retailer.How do you feel about them slapping the IC labels on some titles that don't seem to deserve it?Like the latest Nightwing on the covers says Villians united tie-in.But ewhere was the tie-in?(I dug the issue BTW,just saying)

I actually thought the latest Action Comics was more of a tie-in.

So it's all confusing
I may have already answered it. I do know its rough on retailers to carry all that product. Orders are up and that's great for DC, but do they really realize what pressure that puts on a small business. I'm willing to support the comics and make them available within my budget, but it would have been nice to ease back on the other merchandise. The action figure series and statuary during all this.

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-20-2005, 08:41 PM
Yea, stuff like that just out of nowhere or just stuff that's a couple pages that throws off the pace of a story that's part of a different line in the book. Plus their own continuity between books is slipping because of not only this, but because of late shipping and whatnot. I can only imagine the amount of effort it's taking on the part of the editors to make this all work, but there's just stuff that should not be happening. Like seriously, I should not have to read Wonder Woman to find out that the Flash's most dangerous enemy Zoom has escaped prison...
Late shipping is an issue. When you have four mini series, having one per week is not too much to ask for. Its not a burden for the retailer or too much of an added expense for the customers. When things are late and we get two or more in one week's shipment in addition to other high trafic titles, that's bad. We don't want to drain people dry, we want them to get good stories they want to read about and not have it feel like a chore.

Flonk
06-20-2005, 10:42 PM
Its good, don't get me wrong, but to do all this for this long and 7 soldiers is over kill. And I don't really understand why its happening now. But DC won the market share so it is working.


7 Soldiers and OMAC have been fantastic. Villians United has been a let down, but I'm willing to say that's becasue I have no idea who anyone is. I'm not reading anything else. If that means I can't follow the story, then at least I can say that I stuck to my guns and only read stuff by creators I enjoy.

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-20-2005, 10:45 PM
7 Soldiers and OMAC have been fantastic. Villians United has been a let down, but I'm willing to say that's becasue I have no idea who anyone is. I'm not reading anything else. If that means I can't follow the story, then at least I can say that I stuck to my guns and only read stuff by creators I enjoy.
That's cool, but I really do think that DC editorial expects you to be reading "everything." Perhaps not literally, but say if you read Outsiders only you're expected to keep up with Teen Titans. Or if you read Wonder Woman, you're expected to know what Ruin is. They're pretty unforgiving about that right now.

Flonk
06-20-2005, 10:52 PM
Yea, stuff like that just out of nowhere or just stuff that's a couple pages that throws off the pace of a story that's part of a different line in the book. Plus their own continuity between books is slipping because of not only this, but because of late shipping and whatnot. I can only imagine the amount of effort it's taking on the part of the editors to make this all work, but there's just stuff that should not be happening. Like seriously, I should not have to read Wonder Woman to find out that the Flash's most dangerous enemy Zoom has escaped prison...

THANK YOU! I've been saying that from the begining. But them people respond with "But now it's a cohesive universe!" Who cares? I don't want to read JSA. I'm not going to read JSA. Jesus Christ could be writing it, and I would have no interest in our Lord and Savior's take on Mr. fucking Terriffic. I don't want to have to read JSA to understand the story in ANY book, be it Action Comics or Manhunter.

Flonk
06-20-2005, 10:55 PM
That's cool, but I really do think that DC editorial expects you to be reading "everything." Perhaps not literally, but say if you read Outsiders only you're expected to keep up with Teen Titans. Or if you read Wonder Woman, you're expected to know what Ruin is. They're pretty unforgiving about that right now.

Ruin is on the new Wonder Woman? Or is it just an update on the status of Pete Ross?

That's a different sittuation, since Greg Rucka writes both the titles. Like when Bendis did the DD/Alias crossover a while back. It's the same creator, so obviously there is going to be a bit of overlap. It's stuff like the Teen Titans/ OUtsider nonsense that bothers me.

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-20-2005, 10:58 PM
Ruin is on the new Wonder Woman? Or is it just an update on the status of Pete Ross?

That's a different sittuation, since Greg Rucka writes both the titles. Like when Bendis did the DD/Alias crossover a while back. It's the same creator, so obviously there is going to be a bit of overlap. It's stuff like the Teen Titans/ OUtsider nonsense that bothers me.
Titans and Outsiders do have ties. Its not a stretch. Outsiders picked up the character from Titans Graduation Day which Winnick wrote if I recall (and is for some reason not in print) into their membership. So that's not really an unreasonable tie at all.

Humphrey_Lee
06-20-2005, 11:18 PM
Titans and Outsiders do have ties. Its not a stretch. Outsiders picked up the character from Titans Graduation Day which Winnick wrote if I recall (and is for some reason not in print) into their membership. So that's not really an unreasonable tie at all.

Yea... see, those ones I'm fine with. But like I said before, the Wonder Woman/Zoom thing, and stuff like what happened in the latest Action Comics, (which I was hoping would just be a nice revamping and repowering of another "thrown to the wayside" villain, turned into an improptu Villains United tie-in) and whatnot, it's just going to turn off too many people who wouldn't normally buy those books, instead of turn them onto it.

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-20-2005, 11:26 PM
Yea... see, those ones I'm fine with. But like I said before, the Wonder Woman/Zoom thing, and stuff like what happened in the latest Action Comics, (which I was hoping would just be a nice revamping and repowering of another "thrown to the wayside" villain, turned into an improptu Villains United tie-in) and whatnot, it's just going to turn off too many people who wouldn't normally buy those books, instead of turn them onto it.
Well when you rrun a program like DC is doing right now you do run a very real risk of it getting out of control at a moment's notice. So far they're running a tight ship so we'll see. Several books are going through creative transitions and fll ins before the Infinite Crisis starts which in my opinion this is not the right time for.

Ben Rosen
06-21-2005, 02:46 AM
Comics as a whole are too good right now for your pull list to be shrinking. Changing maybe but shrinking? Why is that?

well, the dc/marvel secion is shrinking. more indie books and spending my money on ogn's or collections.

Brewtown Andy
06-21-2005, 03:28 AM
And this is why I'm thrilled that the only DCU book I buy is Gotham Central.

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-21-2005, 08:30 AM
And this is why I'm thrilled that the only DCU book I buy is Gotham Central.
Hey, just what I need. If you read Gotham Central, pop over to the Countdown to Infinite Crisis mega-thread and explain the Jim Corrigan character in Gotham Central. What's his deal? Anything funny going on? Who's been writing the issues he's been in?

adamgreenberger
06-21-2005, 08:38 AM
I was under the impression that you didn't need to read every tie-in and every mini to get was was going to happen in Infinite Crisis. And that is something that I like. I don't have to buy one issue of this, and one of that to get the whole story. Unlike in the past where I bought every tie in book so I could get the whole story.

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-21-2005, 08:40 AM
I was under the impression that you didn't need to read every tie-in and every mini to get was was going to happen in Infinite Crisis. And that is something that I like. I don't have to buy one issue of this, and one of that to get the whole story. Unlike in the past where I bought every tie in book so I could get the whole story.
Hope not. But its a pretty big random red herring though. That guy has been in the book for a good while too if I recall correctly.

Shwicaz
06-21-2005, 08:44 AM
Well when you rrun a program like DC is doing right now you do run a very real risk of it getting out of control at a moment's notice. So far they're running a tight ship so we'll see. Several books are going through creative transitions and fll ins before the Infinite Crisis starts which in my opinion this is not the right time for.


the problem we have is that a lot of people who normally don't read certain titles are checking out books because of the 'tie ins' thing on the cover, which is great for them, and for us.

Problem is, its tough to order their books now, because you up the order, and then you sell out, and then you have to wait for the next printings, and if someone misses an issue becuase you didn't order enough, they can always go elsewhere.

Normally we 'know' how much of a certain issue of a certain book will sell, based on data on past weeks/months/years on the computer.

But it seems like each and every title now is suddenly just 'not enough' or cutting it close, or the ones you order heavy on don't sell. It's crazy. But congrats for DC for bringing in the business.

Jonny Z
06-21-2005, 08:46 AM
i have no problem keeping up with the crisis in the books i read. i think right now, this is just all hot air and nerves and you guys are hoping this doesn't get ugly.

Kirblar
06-21-2005, 09:02 AM
I don't mind the TT/Outsiders stuff cuz they've been linked since their inception. I do NOT like "Tie-ins" being two panels and interrupting runs.

Ashton
06-21-2005, 09:27 AM
Eh, I just stick with my 25 titles and that's it. None of this crossover or major events mini-series for me. That's gotta add up in cost as well for all these comics- Marvel's mini-series and crossover events included.

Olivier E.
06-21-2005, 09:29 AM
Gotham Knights 66 pissed me off Villains United tie-in and the story continues in JSA:Classified 5 which comes out in 6 months, who's going to remember that

Boris the Blade
06-21-2005, 09:46 AM
I like that there's a universal continuity going on (though Hawkman is still in three places at once, and dead in one of them). The books are affecting one another, but are telling their own stories. So in Titans we find out that Deathstroke was dressing up as Batman, and that it was happening in Outsiders, but you don't need to be reading Outsiders to understand it. They're affected, but not dependant on the event, and I think this makes the whole DC universe really appealing.

Artie Pink
06-21-2005, 09:53 AM
I haven't read a good story to come out of all this since Identity Crisis (except for the latest JLA).

Constant Reader
06-21-2005, 10:18 AM
Fanboys are funny. There is yelling and screaming when a big crossover comes along that isn't of good quality, but still "made" you buy every tie-in to keep up. Now DC has one that is of good quality, and everybody's complaining because you WANT to know what happens and have decided to buy more books to keep up. You don't have to buy every tie-in to keep up with "Infinite" whatever, but the quality is compelling you to, therefore having this be of good quality is bad.

CR

The Human Target
06-21-2005, 12:04 PM
I think most of the ideas are interesting (mostly mind you), but I just couldn't care less about any of those books other than Seven Soldiers which is barely in the DCU at all. Poor storytelling and a lack of freshness killed any hope I had for DC in the near future. And I'm dropping Marvel books like crazy.

BriRedfern
06-21-2005, 12:11 PM
I'm only reading OMAC, yet I feel I have good grip on that story. Am I wrong?

Ray G.
06-21-2005, 12:19 PM
Hawkman excepted, I love how everything is so coherent and well-tied together. The good thing for me about this is that I'm buying 90% of the tie-in books already, so I only have to add the miniseries and one or two books per month. Deciding what to buy for House of M is going to be tougher, though.

Flonk
06-21-2005, 12:49 PM
Fanboys are funny. There is yelling and screaming when a big crossover comes along that isn't of good quality, but still "made" you buy every tie-in to keep up. Now DC has one that is of good quality, and everybody's complaining because you WANT to know what happens and have decided to buy more books to keep up. You don't have to buy every tie-in to keep up with "Infinite" whatever, but the quality is compelling you to, therefore having this be of good quality is bad.

CR


How about no crossovers at all? Marvel was doing just fine without them.

Lord Jermaine Retail
06-21-2005, 08:53 PM
Gotham Knights 66 pissed me off Villains United tie-in and the story continues in JSA:Classified 5 which comes out in 6 months, who's going to remember that
That's awful storytelling.

Adrian B AWESOME
06-21-2005, 08:55 PM
How about no crossovers at all? Marvel was doing just fine without them.

Agreed.

Remember when everyone was on the "hate on Bill Jemas" bandwagon?

I do, and I remember thinking how Bill Jemas made Marvel #1 WITHOUT the idiocy of crossovers and variant covers.

Raphael J
06-21-2005, 08:56 PM
That's awful storytelling.

That, along with the whole Days of Vengeance/JSA tie-ins, as well as the cliffhanger for the third issue of DoV (is Lori home? What shit is that?), are also terrible examples of what Infinite Crisis could turn to be.

Humphrey_Lee
06-21-2005, 09:02 PM
That, along with the whole Days of Vengeance/JSA tie-ins, as well as the cliffhanger for the third issue of DoV (is Lori home? What shit is that?), are also terrible examples of what Infinite Crisis could turn to be.

That's another one too..... here, we're going to also tie this big tie-in mini into a Birds of Prey story over a year ago that most of you probably didn't read... Even though we all know they should have

Mike Haseloff
06-21-2005, 09:03 PM
How about no crossovers at all? Marvel was doing just fine without them.So was DC, until they stunk the place up with War Games... :no:


The question I ask is - is Infinite Crisis even a crossover in the traditional sense?

You've got House of M, running as a string of minis, inflicting 'universe-wide' changes on those mini's, and a select few on-going titles. I think we could all agree that this is a pretty conventional crossover, that will ultimately end with most of the changes reverting back to what we knew prior.

Then you have Infinite Crisis, which strikes me as more of a brand name, than a crossover.
You have a few mini-series events, four to be specific; Villain's United, OMAC Project, Day of Vengeance and Rann/Thanagar war.

Each of these mini-series was introduced through a singular story presented in the cheaper than dirt one-shot - Countdown to Infinite Crisis.
They've also been preceded by other individual stories, which have built up some of these things (such as OMAC project in Azzarello's Superman).

Effectively, thus far, we haven't really entered crossover territory.

I think, in writing this post, maybe we will enter crossover territory.
Dribs and drabs of different stories are going to filter down through the various titles, and different characters are going to be reacting certain ways. So, in that sense, with the events spreading out across the books, I guess it is a crossover event.

But Infinite Crisis itself, as far as we know right now, will simply conclude in moving things forward a year. It'll line everything up for a more cohesive, and logical universe, where while things may not be interconnected, everything will make sense.

So, in a sense, Infinite Crisis is actually a non-crossover, because it doesn't deal with a year of action - it SKIPS it!
Of course, no doubt most of those events will be alluded to in various different ways, but essentially Infinite Crisis itself, requires nothing of a reader, other than the same common sense that should already be employed.

You're going to have missed a year of story.
Are you afraid? Is the panic rising? You haven't missed any books, and yet you're in the dark A WHOLE YEAR! There was no "required" buying, AND YET YOU'RE CLUELESS!

Perhaps what Infinite Crisis really is, is a wake-up call to readers.
To - A) Show them how a reader-friendly crossover can be done. (Complete with website that explains everything you might have missed in titles you're not buying - SHOULD YOU WANT TO KNOW)
and - B) To show readers that they're never slaves to a book, and should be able to put two and two together.

Brewtown Andy
06-21-2005, 09:08 PM
Hey, just what I need. If you read Gotham Central, pop over to the Countdown to Infinite Crisis mega-thread and explain the Jim Corrigan character in Gotham Central. What's his deal? Anything funny going on? Who's been writing the issues he's been in?I'll have to get the time to find the thread and for right now, I can only go off the top of my head, since I'm at work. In about 7 hours I can go through the books, which is when I'll be at home.

Flonk
06-21-2005, 10:42 PM
Agreed.

Remember when everyone was on the "hate on Bill Jemas" bandwagon?

I do, and I remember thinking how Bill Jemas made Marvel #1 WITHOUT the idiocy of crossovers and variant covers.

You, me and a few other people on this board that I can count with one hand. I miss the Jemas days so much. A perfect example is Rucka's Wolverine vs Millar's Wolverine. Love it or hate it, at least Rucka's Wolverine was different.

Flonk
06-21-2005, 10:54 PM
So was DC, until they stunk the place up with War Games... :no:


The question I ask is - is Infinite Crisis even a crossover in the traditional sense?

[quote]
You've got House of M, running as a string of minis, inflicting 'universe-wide' changes on those mini's, and a select few on-going titles. I think we could all agree that this is a pretty conventional crossover, that will ultimately end with most of the changes reverting back to what we knew prior.


OK, I'm with you so far.



Then you have Infinite Crisis, which strikes me as more of a brand name, than a crossover.
You have a few mini-series events, four to be specific; Villain's United, OMAC Project, Day of Vengeance and Rann/Thanagar war.


IC seems to me like a traditional crossover, but with 4 minis instead of one.



Each of these mini-series was introduced through a singular story presented in the cheaper than dirt one-shot - Countdown to Infinite Crisis.
They've also been preceded by other individual stories, which have built up some of these things (such as OMAC project in Azzarello's Superman).

Rucka's OMAC and Azz's OMAC are two completely different things. For starters, Azz's OMAC is the traditional One Man ArmyCorps. And Ruka's OMAC is the Observational Metahuman Attack Contingancy, or something like that.



Effectively, thus far, we haven't really entered crossover territory.


The latest Birds of Prey is the perfect example of tradtional crossover territory. There is a picture of the Brother satilite on the cover and a bit of copy that says "O.M.A.C. Project Tie-In!" In the issue, OMAC only shows up for two panels, and he doesn't do a damn thing, but stand there and look at Oracle's plane.



I think, in writing this post, maybe we will enter crossover territory.
Dribs and drabs of different stories are going to filter down through the various titles, and different characters are going to be reacting certain ways. So, in that sense, with the events spreading out across the books, I guess it is a crossover event.

But Infinite Crisis itself, as far as we know right now, will simply conclude in moving things forward a year. It'll line everything up for a more cohesive, and logical universe, where while things may not be interconnected, everything will make sense.

So, in a sense, Infinite Crisis is actually a non-crossover, because it doesn't deal with a year of action - it SKIPS it!
Of course, no doubt most of those events will be alluded to in various different ways, but essentially Infinite Crisis itself, requires nothing of a reader, other than the same common sense that should already be employed.

You're going to have missed a year of story.
Are you afraid? Is the panic rising? You haven't missed any books, and yet you're in the dark A WHOLE YEAR! There was no "required" buying, AND YET YOU'RE CLUELESS!

Perhaps what Infinite Crisis really is, is a wake-up call to readers.
To - A) Show them how a reader-friendly crossover can be done. (Complete with website that explains everything you might have missed in titles you're not buying - SHOULD YOU WANT TO KNOW)
and - B) To show readers that they're never slaves to a book, and should be able to put two and two together.


The rest of it, while it may not be a crossover (which it is, but I'll play by your rules) is still a lame marketing ploy.

Mike Haseloff
06-21-2005, 11:00 PM
The latest Birds of Prey is the perfect example of tradtional crossover territory. There is a picture of the Brother satilite on the cover and a bit of copy that says "O.M.A.C. Project Tie-In!" In the issue, OMAC only shows up for two panels, and he doesn't do a damn thing, but stand there and look at Oracle's plane.I would've called that marketing/brand (which I flat out said in my point) rather than crossover.

To me, the traditional crossover is more involved, and dominates the issue more. A couple of recent examples I can think of would be Onslaught and War Games.


The rest of it, while it may not be a crossover (which it is, but I'll play by your rules) is still a lame marketing ploy.Then we agree. You're just more negative about it, and my point went a bit further.

Flonk
06-21-2005, 11:07 PM
I would've called that marketing/brand (which I flat out said in my point) rather than crossover.

To me, the traditional crossover is more involved, and dominates the issue more. A couple of recent examples I can think of would be Onslaught and War Games.

Then we agree. You're just more negative about it, and my point went a bit further.

Was Avengers: Dissasembled marketing or a crossover?

Mike Haseloff
06-21-2005, 11:16 PM
Was Avengers: Dissasembled marketing or a crossover?Marketing.


Absurdly-so.
I've taken issue with Disassembled a few times on the board.
Not so much the act, as much as the marketing department's response.

Their opinion was basically that Disassembled was trying it the fans' way, and that the fan backlash to the irrelevent tie-ins meant that it wasn't worth listening to fans, so they'd go back to more traditional methods for House of M.

The problem I have with that is, yes, fans had been crying for crossovers to be less expansive in their required readings - but they DIDN'T ask for books to be stamped as tie-ins and have no reference to the fact inside.

I've forgotten who it was that made the comments, but whoever it is should read it again, and note how ridiculous it sounds.
I was very disappointed in that, and the content of Disassembled, through to this response to the poor opinions of the tie-ins, to New Avengers now, as Marvel's "a-team" book, have really helped shape my grim opinion of Marvel these days.

I don't think they're in the ballpark creatively, and with approaches like this to crossovers, I think they're fixing for a fall.
Even Marvel zombies can die off!