Does anybody not like The Dark Knight Returns?

[Doc Randy]

If you were to poll most comic readers about what they think the three best American comic collections are, I suspect that the three most common titles to be named would be Sandman, The Watchmen, and Dark Knight Returns.

This isn't to say they are the three best... just probably the three that would most often be cited in a large poll.

We have had big threads about Sandman and Watchmen several times, but I have don't remember any big debates about DKR. Why do you suppose that is?

[Ryan Elliott]

I think, THINK, Ray hates it. I'm not sure though.

[NickT]

I didn't dislike it, but it didn't do as much for me as it does for most people.

[Ray G.]

I'm fairly neutral on it.

I appreciate that it was truly a seminal work in comics, and influenced an incredible amount of stuff. But I've never felt any real connection to it. It doesn't work for me on anywhere near the same level as the other two, which in my opinion ABSOLUTELY deserve the hype.

I'd put Squadron Supreme above it.

[BWC Boston]

Eh. I love the art, and for the most part the story's great, but I don't completely love it. Give me YEAR ONE any day.

[19bernardo87]

I hate it.

[Ryan Elliott]

I'm fairly neutral on it.

I appreciate that it was truly a seminal work in comics, and influenced an incredible amount of stuff. But I've never felt any real connection to it. It doesn't work for me on anywhere near the same level as the other two, which in my opinion ABSOLUTELY deserve the hype.

I'd put Squadron Supreme above it.


Ah, there we go.

[Ray G.]

I think, THINK, Ray hates it. I'm not sure though.

Definitely don't hate it. It's got some great moments, but for some reason I've never really felt it. Which is odd, because I love Batman.

I think Year One is probably the best Batman story, followed by The Dark Knight. Movies are stories! :)

[Matt O'Keefe]

It's simple. It doesn't take much work on the part of the reader to "get" it, from recollection of my last reading.

Though I wouldn't put DKR anywhere near the top 3.

[Jerome Gibbons]

I don't like it. I think it has good art, and that it starts decently, then starts falling apart around the third issue. By the fourth, it's a complete mess.

[Supajoe]

I don't like it. I think it has good art, and that it starts decently, then starts falling apart around the third issue. By the fourth, it's a complete mess.

i concur.

[bradical]

got to read it as it came out and i've a fondness for it. i still think it holds up really well.

[En Sabah Poo]

Didn't really like it. But I guess it doesn't help that I'm not a big Batman fan nor a big Frank Miller fan.

[Doc Randy]

I don't like it. I think it has good art, and that it starts decently, then starts falling apart around the third issue. By the fourth, it's a complete mess.

It could and has been argued that the escalation of narrative chaos is meant to reflect the escalation of chaos in the story. The whole story is about things falling apart. :twisted:

[Dave0923]

I like it a great deal. I think it's Frank Miller at his creative Zenith as a cartoonist (I still adore Sin City and 300 though), but I can completely understand why someone wouldn't like it. I know people who don't like it, and that's fine. I know people who don't like Watchmen, and that's fine. Just because something is labeled a "classic" or a "hallmark of sequential storytelling." or what have you doesn't mean it has to be your favorite, and it doesn't mean you even have to enjoy it. That's my two cents.

But still...Love that book. I've always dug Born Again and Year One a little more though. That's also again just my two cents.

[En Sabah Poo]

It could and has been argued that the escalation of narrative chaos is meant to reflect the escalation of chaos in the story. The whole story is about things falling apart. :twisted:

I consider that to be a defining case of arrogant writing.

[bradical]

It could and has been argued that the escalation of narrative chaos is meant to reflect the escalation of chaos in the story. The whole story is about things falling apart. :twisted:

all those secret hidden messages for the intellectuals. grrr.

[Doc Randy]

I consider that to be a defining case of arrogant writing.

My post?



sorry :surrend:

[bradical]

I consider that to be a defining case of arrogant writing.

ok, i'll bite (and chuckle a bit). how so?

[Jerome Gibbons]

It could and has been argued that the escalation of narrative chaos is meant to reflect the escalation of chaos in the story. The whole story is about things falling apart. :twisted:

I could see that, I think.

[En Sabah Poo]

My post?



sorry :surrend:

Heh, no, the style of writing you described.

[LenNWallace]

Loved it when I first read it, still love bits of it, but for the most part, not as big a fan as I am of Miller's works on Daredevil and Sin City. I wasn't even that huge on Batman: Year One, storywise.

[Brad N.]

I like it, but it hasn't aged well in my opinion. Where I can still sit down and enjoy Sandman or Watchmen or Maus as much as I did in my younger days I read DKR again recently and it didn't really blow me away anymore. Maybe part of that is my dislike for what Miller has become as a writer, maybe part of it is that it's not all that groundbreaking anymore and once you peel that element away it has its flaws. It's not exactly a massive work of brilliant literature like the others. So yeah, it would still be up in my top 5 or 10 but I wouldn't include it in a MUST READ list of 3 anymore.

[En Sabah Poo]

ok, i'll bite (and chuckle a bit). how so?

Tearing down your own story and making it less fun to read for the sake of getting across some hidden meaning that isn't really that important, is really lame.

[John M. Coker (Johnny C.)]

I'm fairly neutral on it.

I appreciate that it was truly a seminal work in comics, and influenced an incredible amount of stuff. But I've never felt any real connection to it. It doesn't work for me on anywhere near the same level as the other two, which in my opinion ABSOLUTELY deserve the hype.

I'd put Squadron Supreme above it.

I'm kind of in this boat. I recognize and appreciate it's impact, but on a personal level, it's not even in my top 10.

[Patton]

I'm not sure how many Watchmen threads there were before the movie though. I don't remember many. And I don't hear Sandman listed as third as much as Maus, I think.

[bradical]

Tearing down your own story and making it less fun to read for the sake of getting across some hidden meaning that isn't really that important, is really lame.

if that's what you take from reading it, then that's what you take. there's nothing that's for everybody.

[Matt O'Keefe]

I'm kind of in this boat. I recognize and appreciate it's impact, but on a personal level, it's not even in my top 10.

I wouldn't say it's in the top 10 of most influential comics either, myself. Part of me thinks that Miller's DD had a greater effect.

[En Sabah Poo]

It could and has been argued that the escalation of narrative chaos is meant to reflect the escalation of chaos in the story. The whole story is about things falling apart. :twisted:

It could also be argued that its sloppy writing in a situation where the writer doesn't know how to wrap up a story.

[ZombieSpeedball]

I liked DKR. DKSA is just garbage. Awful story. And all the unnecessary bashing of Superman. We get it Frank, you fucking hate him.

[Ray G.]

I'm not sure how many Watchmen threads there were before the movie though. I don't remember many. And I don't hear Sandman listed as third as much as Maus, I think.

My problem with Maus is that it really feels like two stories in one book, and one is infinitely superior to the other.

I understand that the two stories are linked, but I found myself struggling to get through the present day segments, while being absolutely drawn in to the Holocaust segments.

Personally, my #3 is likely the Contract with God trilogy.

[Doc Randy]

I like the book alright. Not my fave or anything, but I think it deserves its praise.

I had someone point out something pretty cool to me the other day. DKR has a bunch of interesting splash pages throughout the book. The common practice at the time (and now) is to make the splash pages a scene of action bursting off he page. But in DKR, they are often quiet character moments. It is often stuff like Bruce hugging Robin or the two of them patrolling.

I thought it was an interesting observation.

I think my favorite thing is the 16-panel grid Miller used. Man... that is one dense comic.

[Matt O'Keefe]

Tearing down your own story and making it less fun to read for the sake of getting across some hidden meaning that isn't really that important, is really lame.

It's not supposed to be a hidden message that only the special few can understand. It's an attempt at writing beyond the narrative, which I think deserves commending. If doing that made the story "less fun," then he probably just wasn't entirely successful at it.

[JoeE]

I like it, but the satire brings it down from a 10 to maybe an 8.5. Miller fails at satire. Born Again had the same problem.

[Ryan Elliott]

Oh yeah.

I love it. One of my favorite Batman stories ever. A Batman Epic.

[bradical]

I wouldn't say it's in the top 10 of most influential comics either, myself. Part of me thinks that Miller's DD had a greater effect.

i don't disagree that his dd run did a lot for storytelling techniques in comics, but dkr was and is a huge influence, certainly a top ten if not top five.

[Matt O'Keefe]

My problem with Maus is that it really feels like two stories in one book, and one is infinitely superior to the other.

I understand that the two stories are linked, but I found myself struggling to get through the present day segments, while being absolutely drawn in to the Holocaust segments.

Personally, my #3 is likely the Contract with God trilogy.

I don't think there is anything particularly special about Maus without the combination of the narratives.


Contract with God is probably the most conspicuous absence on books I should read.

[Howlett]

I thought it was okay. I kinda enjoyed it at the time, but nowhere near enough to actively seek it out for a re-read. Ever. In fact, I tend to forget I've even read it until someone brings it up in a conversation.

[Doc Randy]

It could also be argued that its sloppy writing in a situation where the writer doesn't know how to wrap up a story.


Yeah... you could argue that. I don't agree at all, but you could argue that. :)

[Jerome Gibbons]

Another thing that I think may have hurt my enjoyment of the book was the rather jarring way in which the Watchmen influences were incorporated into the book after that first issue. It wasn't very smooth sailing and took me out of the story a bit. Probably something that could have been handled better.

[bradical]

It could also be argued that its sloppy writing in a situation where the writer doesn't know how to wrap up a story.

i don't get that at all. it had a very satisfying ending and all the things that had to happen to tell that batman story did.

[Matt O'Keefe]

i don't disagree that his dd run did a lot for storytelling techniques in comics, dkr was and is a huge influence, certainly a top ten if not top five.

I think older comics like the Spirit, Contract With God, Fantastic Four, Action Comics #1, MAD, and a variety of EC comics probably had a greater influence. As for more modern ones, I'd refer to Maus, Sandman, Watchmen, Miracleman, and a bunch of others I can't think of right now.

[ZombieSpeedball]

The least I can say is that it's infinately better than ASB&R.

[Patton]

My problem with Maus is that it really feels like two stories in one book, and one is infinitely superior to the other.

I understand that the two stories are linked, but I found myself struggling to get through the present day segments, while being absolutely drawn in to the Holocaust segments.

Personally, my #3 is likely the Contract with God trilogy.

I mean, it depends if we're doing best or favorite. Watchmen is best but I dunno if it's my favorite.

Certainly Dark Knight Returns wouldn't be in my top 5 nor would Sandman or Maus.

[Matt O'Keefe]

The least I can say is that it's infinately better than ASB&R.

I don't really know how to critique ASB&R, since it's basically Miller having fun with batshit craziness and endlessly mocking the genre.

[En Sabah Poo]

i don't get that at all. it had a very satisfying ending and all the things that had to happen to tell that batman story did.

im not talking about dkr but generally.

[Howlett]

The least I can say is that it's infinately better than ASB&R.

I believe you were the person who had my old quote about my thoughts on ASB&R, but if you weren't, here it is again.

Testicular leprosy is better than ASB&R.

[LenNWallace]

I like the book alright. Not my fave or anything, but I think it deserves its praise.

I had someone point out something pretty cool to me the other day. DKR has a bunch of interesting splash pages throughout the book. The common practice at the time (and now) is to make the splash pages a scene of action bursting off he page. But in DKR, they are often quiet character moments. It is often stuff like Bruce hugging Robin or the two of them patrolling.

I thought it was an interesting observation.

I think my favorite thing is the 16-panel grid Miller used. Man... that is one dense comic.

Agreed. That's one thing I wish the industry today had more of.

[Ray G.]

I mean, it depends if we're doing best or favorite. Watchmen is best but I dunno if it's my favorite.

Certainly Dark Knight Returns wouldn't be in my top 5 nor would Sandman or Maus.

Oh, yeah. My top five favorite would likely give half the people on the board fits. :lol:

But in terms of my picks for the "best", I know Sandman, Watchmen, and Contract with God are in there. I lean towards giving Fables a slot, but it's tricky because it's not complete. Then Squadron Supreme to round it up.

[Akira]

Give me YEAR ONE any day.

ditto. year one is leagues better than DKR. and, quite frankly, i find this concept of there being certain books that "everyone loves" to be quite tiresome. and more than a little insulting.

[Matt O'Keefe]

Oh, yeah. My top five favorite would likely give half the people on the board fits. :lol:

But in terms of my picks for the "best", I know Sandman, Watchmen, and Contract with God are in there. I lean towards giving Fables a slot, but it's tricky because it's not complete. Then Squadron Supreme to round it up.

I might be the biggest Fables fan on the board, but if you list that in your Top 5 then I'd say you should try more Top Shelf/D+Q/Fantagraphics. I never found Fables to be very literary outside of some conservative allegories

[Howlett]

ditto. year one is leagues better than DKR. and, quite frankly, i find this concept of there being certain books that "everyone loves" to be quite tiresome. and more than a little insulting.

I swear to god, we were seperated at birth. We fucking had to have been :lol:

[Doc Randy]

ditto. year one is leagues better than DKR. and, quite frankly, i find this concept of there being certain books that "everyone loves" to be quite tiresome. and more than a little insulting.

Nobody is suggesting everyone should love these works. But these works are significant for many reasons. They have withstood the filters of time, they have achieved widespread critical acclaim, they are heavily read, and in the case of the three mentioned, they tend to be the ones with the most exposure as being something worthy of reading.

Why would you be insulted by discussions of "great works"?
Do you feel the same way when people talk about classic literature or great works of music in their respective genres?

Oh... I also agree that Year One is superior. I didn't list it because it is far less read than DKR.

[Jerome Gibbons]

This is a good discussion; I think I'll start a thread about favorite comics. I actually don't recall us having many discussions around the subject.

[Akira]

I swear to god, we were seperated at birth. We fucking had to have been :lol:

i keep telling everyone i'm black irish

[bradical]

Nobody is suggesting everyone should love these works. But these works are significant for many reasons. They have withstood the filters of time, they have achieved widespread critical acclaim, they are heavily read, and in the case of the three mentioned, they tend to be the ones with the most exposure as being something worthy of reading.

Why would you be insulted by discussions of "great works"?
Do you feel the same way when people talk about classic literature or great works of music in their respective genres?

i was going to say something like this, just not quite as well thought out and elegant.

[bradical]

i keep telling everyone i'm black irish

why do they call you red?

[VonDoom]

DKR is probably my favourite comic book ever.

[Patton]

This is a good discussion; I think I'll start a thread about favorite comics. I actually don't recall us having many discussions around the subject.

Kersplish!

[Patton]

I liked it a lot except for the Cookie Monster voice that I kept hearing in my head.

[Jerome Gibbons]

Kersplish!

Buh?

[ZombieSpeedball]

Seriously though, guys, I cannot stress enough how awful DKSA is.

[Doc Randy]

Here is my favorite 1-star review from Amazon:



I gave up after about 20 pages of not being able to tell what was going on because of how terribly sloppy the drawings are.

[Patton]

Seriously though, guys, I cannot stress enough how awful DKSA is.

Love it!

[Ray G.]

I might be the biggest Fables fan on the board, but if you list that in your Top 5 then I'd say you should try more Top Shelf/D+Q/Fantagraphics. I never found Fables to be very literary outside of some conservative allegories

Come to think of it, I'm forgetting Bone. I'll put that in there and leave it to complete stories.

[ZombieSpeedball]

Love it!

But... but why?

[bradical]

Seriously though, guys, I cannot stress enough how awful DKSA is.

i find it quite fun. it's not a great book, but it is close to a hoot. it's a flimsy story that miller obviously had a ball doing.

[Howlett]

Why would you be insulted by discussions of "great works"?

He never said that was what he found insulting. He said the people with the belief that there are books that everyone HAS to love is tiresome and insulting. And he's right. It's pathetically sad that people just can't get it into their heads that not everyone is going to like something, and that people treat others like inferiors for not enjoying something.

Which is something that constantly happens with fans of the likes of Watchmen, DKR, Sandman and the like (less so with Sandman these days, thankfully). It's not true of all the fans of the above, but it is something that is seen QUITE often.

[bradical]

He never said that was what he found insulting. He said the people with the belief that there are books that everyone HAS to love is tiresome and insulting. And he's right. It's pathetically sad that people just can't get it into their heads that not everyone is going to like something, and that people treat others like inferiors for not enjoying something.

Which is something that constantly happens with fans of the likes of Watchmen, DKR, Sandman and the like (less so with Sandman these days, thankfully). It's not true of all the fans of the above, but it is something that is seen QUITE often.

so are you saying you don't like watchmen?

[Howlett]

i keep telling everyone i'm black irish

Wait, you're black? :shock:

I thought you just drank too much Guinness! :o

You can smack me for that one at the meet up in NC :p

[Jerome Gibbons]

And there it is: http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showthread.php?t=175343

[Howlett]

so are you saying you don't like watchmen?

Funny fucker :lol:

[Patton]

And there it is: http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showthread.php?t=175343

Ohhhhh...I thought you were being sarcasm.

Cool.

[LenNWallace]

Wait, you're black? :shock:

I thought you just drank too much Guinness! :o

You can smack me for that one at the meet up in NC :p
I knew the Irish hated black people, but wow... ;)

[AndrewG]

I was kind of actually talking about this on another board. I'm not a big Dark Knight fan. I think it's a decent story but I would put Year One so far above it that it's not even funny. I could probably think of 4 or 5 other Batman stories that I would place above it, let alone other comic stories, actually.

Now instead of just slamming it to be different, I guess I should list the things that didn't really do it for me.

-I thought it was a little heavy handed in its politics. Enough so that it took me out of the story.
-I thought that while there were certainly very exciting and even iconic moments, those were sprinkled in between a lot of dullness
-I disliked the art with a passion. I like Miller's style on a book like Sin City or 300 or Ronin...not at all on a title like this.

It's not a bad comic, but I certainly think it's a bit overrated and that probably has more to do with mainstream people discovering it and realizing that Batman (in this comic) wasn't the same silly character they knew about from the television show and because comic fans crave acceptence from the mainstream we tend to overreact anytime they throw us a bone and say they like something and we put it on even greater pedestal.

It was a good story. Not one of the greatest.

[Akira]

what howlett said. but with lots more "motherfuck"s

i love sandman. couldn't stand fables
loved nextwave. didn't dig transmet
love born again and batman year one. not a big fan of dkr
love every panel of all-star batman. gave away my copies of the first 6 issues of all-star superman because it did less than nothing for me.
love harry potter, d & d, and the lotr movies. tolkien's corpse can suck my dick.
why should i be told that my taste is "wrong"? because my opinion doesn't match the popular one? fuck that. i'm much happier liking what i do, than i would be if i was wondering what was "wrong" with me for not liking the samethings as everyone else.

[DaveCummings]

I absolutely love DKR. Of this, Sandman, Watchmen, and even Year One it had more of an impact on me and has a special place in my heart. Mainly because when I was first exposed to it. I really started reading comics around 1990-1991, thanks to McFarlane's Spider-Man and Jim Lee's X-Men. Shortly after that, I checked out DKR from my local library and it fucking blew me away. Now if I probably had read Watchmen or Year One before that, it might be different.

As for some people's differing reactions to it now, I can understand it. I think some of it has to do with their dislike of Miller's current output tainting their enjoyment of his older stuff. Plus, I wonder if the the sheer number of comics that tried to rip off the feel of DKR soiled their later opinion of the book later on. I mean, there are many books that tried to rip off Watchmen, but it did capture the feel and feel so glaringly blatant as the ones that ripped off DKR did. But that's just me.

[Howlett]

I knew the Irish hated black people, but wow... ;)

We don't hate black people! We hate sober people.

And the English.

[Phil Hester]

You crazy kids wear me out.

What will I be called upon to defend next? Orgasms? Ice cream? Summer? DKR is a masterpiece and its greatness is self evident. Pay attention.

[LenNWallace]

You crazy kids wear me out.

What will I be called upon to defend next? Orgasms? Ice cream? Summer? DKR is a masterpiece and its greatness is self evident. Pay attention.

Y'know what was a good modern comic example of fun and density? Irredeemable Ant-Man. The only Marvel work Kirkman did that I enjoyed, made even more fun because of the crazy shit it brought out in Phil's art.

[Patton]

Summer's too hot, ice cream's too cold, and orgasms are messy!

[Phil Hester]

Y'know what was a good modern comic example of fun and density? Irredeemable Ant-Man. The only Marvel work Kirkman did that I enjoyed, made even more fun because of the crazy shit it brought out in Phil's art.

Now we're getting somewhere!
-P

[c. page]

i dig the book. it's a fun read, and while not as good as some of his other stuff, like daredevil or year one, it's still pretty goddamn good.

[LenNWallace]

Now we're getting somewhere!
-P

What are you drawing these days, anyhow?

[ZombieSpeedball]

Y'know what was a good modern comic example of fun and density? Irredeemable Ant-Man. The only Marvel work Kirkman did that I enjoyed, made even more fun because of the crazy shit it brought out in Phil's art.

God knows his UXM work isn't my favorite Marvel Kirkman work.

[Hate_Prime]

I liked it.

[Hyperstorm]

I like DKR for what it is: a good, fun read. But I do personally feel it is overhyped.

Also I thinkn that the sequel has soured some people's views on this a bit as well.

[David Aspmo]

I absolutely love DKR. Of this, Sandman, Watchmen, and even Year One it had more of an impact on me and has a special place in my heart. Mainly because when I was first exposed to it. I really started reading comics around 1990-1991, thanks to McFarlane's Spider-Man and Jim Lee's X-Men. Shortly after that, I checked out DKR from my local library and it fucking blew me away. Now if I probably had read Watchmen or Year One before that, it might be different.
My feelings about, and first exposure to, DKR are pretty similar to this.

Only difference is that while I first started reading superhero comics about the same time as you, I'd been reading and collecting G.I. Joe and TMNT comics for a couple of years before that. So, I did know what it felt like to enjoy actually reading comics, but aside from a couple of things like Peter David's X-Factor, superhero comics at the time just weren't that impressive writing-wise. As such, like you, my first reading of DKR was quite the revelation.

[ZombieSpeedball]

I like DKR for what it is: a good, fun read. But I do personally feel it is overhyped.

Also I thinkn that the sequel has soured some people's views on this a bit as well.

I don't let DKSA ruin DKR for me. I seperate them.

[Hyperstorm]

I don't let DKSA ruin DKR for me. I seperate them.

I tried to do that, but once something is read it can't be unread so I sold both of them.

Might pick it up at some point again, but at this point there are other collected works I want first.

[Big Poot!]

I didn't like it at all. I find I don't like Frank Miller's writing that much. Just his art. I don't like Batman that much either. Plus it's a future story, don't like that much either.

Spider-Man Reign was better. :spidsens::venom:

[Mister Mets]

There's a slight distinction between liking it, and believing it's one of the five or ten best comic books ever made.

It's certainly in my top five, but I think Daredevil: Born Again was better.

As for why we don't have debates on the topic, this is the forum of a guy who hasn't worked for DC, and Watchmen's in the news more often (plus Watchmen is #1.)

[Akira]

I didn't like it at all. I find I don't like Frank Miller's writing that much. Just his art. I don't like Batman that much either. Plus it's a future story, don't like that much either.

Spider-Man Reign was better. :spidsens::venom:

it was totally derivative of dkr, but i still dug reign more

[Xander Boune]

I love it, think it's the best Batman story ever told, and regard it among the best graphic novels. It's not technically as good as Moore's best stories, but it's an amazing ride and every non-comic reader who's borrowed it from me fell in love with it. There are so many scenes in the book that still hit me or give me goosebumps when I read it. It's wonderful, and in my opinion Miller's best work.

[TheTravis!]

I love it, think it's the best Batman story ever told, and regard it among the best graphic novels. It's not technically as good as Moore's best stories, but it's an amazing ride and every non-comic reader who's borrowed it from me fell in love with it. There are so many scenes in the book that still hit me or give me goosebumps when I read it. It's wonderful, and in my opinion Miller's best work.

Yeah. This, for me.

Although DKSA managed to gutshoot at least some of my affection for DKR. And completely killed any lingering regard I felt for Frank Miller.

[Yorick Brown]

You crazy kids wear me out.

What will I be called upon to defend next? Orgasms? Ice cream? Summer? DKR is a masterpiece and its greatness is self evident. Pay attention.

I agree. I love it. I can even enjoy DKSA if I think while reading how funny it is that Miller got DC to publish a giant "fuck you" to itself.

[DaveCummings]

My feelings about, and first exposure to, DKR are pretty similar to this.

Only difference is that while I first started reading superhero comics about the same time as you, I'd been reading and collecting G.I. Joe and TMNT comics for a couple of years before that. So, I did know what it felt like to enjoy actually reading comics, but aside from a couple of things like Peter David's X-Factor, superhero comics at the time just weren't that impressive writing-wise. As such, like you, my first reading of DKR was quite the revelation.


Well, I read comics before that. When I was a kid, whenever I went to the grocery store with my parents or if I was sick, I'd get one of the G.I. Joe or Transformers digests that they had. I got into reading comics from a couple of friends of mine. One was an army brat who lived in Korea for awhile and got exposed to alot of manga in the 80s, and the other was more into superhero comics. So, first I was picking up manga that was available at the time like Fist of the North Star or Golgo 13 (which the fact that there was NES games out at the time of these characters steered me towards them), then I was with my friend who was into superhero comics at the comic shop and that's when I got exposed to and hooked into superhero comics, and that was the issue of McFarlane's Spider-Man, where Spider-Man and Wolverine was tracking down a child molester/killer who was using the Wendigo to cover up his crimes.

[joeAR]

It's my 2nd favorite comic story of all time

[Humphrey_Lee]

I'm not sure how many Watchmen threads there were before the movie though. I don't remember many. And I don't hear Sandman listed as third as much as Maus, I think.


Not as far as just single collected editions, but just in general Sandman is part of the "Holy Trinity" if you will. If you ask people just about single Graphic Novels, the third answer is either Maus, yes, or honestly Kingdom Come I would say. I think you'd actually be surprised at how many of your "Wednesday Warrior" comic buyers have never read, or even heard of, Maus. Shit, I haven't read a copy of it in almost a decade now honestly. Barely remember it, except that I know I thought it was awesome at the time.

[Andreas]

What are you drawing these days, anyhow?

I'm tempted to get THE DARKNESS: ACCURSED. 144 pages for only $4.99.

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/090217-darkness-accursed-commentary.html

Andreas

[Andreas]

I can see why DKR has its place in comics history, but I enjoy DK2 more. :)

Andreas

[Fygar]

I didn't like DKR the first time I read it. I thought Frank took too many ideas and threw them in a blender to see what happens. The second time I read it I was blown away. The thing that sticks in my mind is the "sloppy" line work of Miller juxtaposed with the meticulous panel layouts. There are several pages that I'll just stare at and think to myself "How the fuck did he do this?". And that's just speaking about the book's execution. On top of that you have amazing actions scenes, a story with depth and great characterization.

I also didn't like Year One nor DKSA the first time I read them, but loved them both once I reread them last year (yes even the latter). Yet I liked all of the All Star Batman issues the first time I read them...there must be something wrong with me :)

[EmarAndZeb]

I think my favorite thing is the 16-panel grid Miller used. Man... that is one dense comic.

The fact that Miller, Janson, and Varley still make that much density "read" in that rough expressionist style is itself pretty impressive.


The art is my favorite thing about DKR. I like the story, but I do I think Miller is sometimes a little too obvious about his soapbox-ing and use of straw men when he waxes political. It's not like the harangues are completely out of place from the story, though; the book is kind of a treatise, after all. I'd have more of a problem if they were just kind of in there arbitrarily.

Miller's take on Batman in DKR is interesting, and it's obviously one of the definitive reads on the character. Not quite the most definitive read for me, though; that would be Dini and Timm...:)

[Fake Pat]

DKR is hands-down the best work using a big 2 property in the history of comics.

All-Star Superman is a close second.

[dnk]

I've only read it once, but wasn't blown away. I liked it, but I've never once felt a need to reread. Besides maybe now. But I might reread it again to see if I like it more a second time.

Plus, I agree with the talk of YEAR ONE being a better Bat-Miller comic. I also prefer his Daredevil work over the Batman stuff.

[Fake Pat]

I've only read it once, but wasn't blown away. I liked it, but I've never once felt a need to reread. Besides maybe now. But I might reread it again to see if I like it more a second time.

Plus, I agree with the talk of YEAR ONE being a better Bat-Miller comic. I also prefer his Daredevil work over the Batman stuff.

Year One and Born Again are both great, but I think the ambition (and the fact that the work lives up to those ambitions) of DKR puts it over those two.

Though the Avengers scene in BA is probably the best Avengers scene in history. Fucking loooove that bit.

[VonDoom]

I love it, think it's the best Batman story ever told, and regard it among the best graphic novels. It's not technically as good as Moore's best stories, but it's an amazing ride and every non-comic reader who's borrowed it from me fell in love with it. There are so many scenes in the book that still hit me or give me goosebumps when I read it. It's wonderful, and in my opinion Miller's best work.

Agreed.

[Phil Hester]

What are you drawing these days, anyhow?

The Darkness 80-81. It's an homage to Swamp Thing/The Heap/Man-Thing/It. After that I don't know. I'm writing a lot of stuff these days. I'll never quit drawing, though.

[Phil Hester]

I'm tempted to get THE DARKNESS: ACCURSED. 144 pages for only $4.99.

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/090217-darkness-accursed-commentary.html

Andreas


Please do. Even if you wind up hating it it's like that old joke about the bad restaurant: The food's horrible, but the portions are huge!

I think/hope you'll actually like it, though. We tried awfully hard to make a good comic book.

Threadjacking will now cease.

[Fake Pat]

The Darkness 80-81. It's an homage to Swamp Thing/The Heap/Man-Thing/It. After that I don't know. I'm writing a lot of stuff these days. I'll never quit drawing, though.

Huh. I never bought Darkness before, but that sounds kinda cool.

[Lab-Rat]

I hate DKR...personally I think it's the worst Batman story I've ever read.

[RickLM]

Dark and gritty has become quite the cliche.

[VonDoom]

Dark and gritty has become quite the cliche.

Maybe, but you could argue that Frank Miller created the cliche in comic books.

[RickLM]

Maybe, but you could argue that Frank Miller created the cliche in comic books.


That's kinda what I was saying.

[dnk]

Though the Avengers scene in BA is probably the best Avengers scene in history. Fucking loooove that bit.

Yeah, it's incredible. I loved that so-fucking-much-larger-than-life feel.

And if there is a Daredevil reboot/requel in the new Marvel Movie U, there's always the slim possibility we'd get to see that in live action.

[VonDoom]

That's kinda what I was saying.

Hm. I tend to prefer grim'n'gritty stuff (when done well, obviously) to anything else Superhero-y, so early Frank Miller is right up my street.

[Dave S.]

I loved it. But I don't tend to like most Batman stories. I even liked Dark Knight Strikes Again.

[ZombieSpeedball]

I hate DKR...personally I think it's the worst Batman story I've ever read.

Really? Have you read Batman R.I.P.?

[Blake Sims]

It's a good book. DKSA is good too! I don't understand why it gets so much hate.

[AceOfSpades]

I like it but I guess having read it now instead of back then, I think it's seriously overhyped. I felt the same way with Watchmen.

But I didn't read it when that sort of storytelling was new.

[Nick Spencer]

Really? Have you read Batman R.I.P.?

sigh.

[ZombieSpeedball]

sigh.

Just a cheap shot, sorry, I had to take it. :)

[TomBelandTSSTG]

I liked DKR... but I much prefer "Year One"

[SteveZegers]

I liked DKR... but I much prefer "Year One"

Yeah, I agree. Most of the time I'd rather see the beginning of a story.

[The Cheap-Arse Film Critic]

I do love it, but I think it's very much a book of it's time, which I think hurts some people's ability to enjoy in. Interestingly, I think the reverse is true of The Dark Knight Strikes Again. That too is very much a book of it's time, but unlike the first one, it's totally a reflection of our time and our generation. And alot of people didn't like what they saw in the mirror. I personally think it could be the last good thing Miller ever puts his name to.

[Jef UK]

I consider that to be a defining case of arrogant writing.

How dumb to do so.

[Jef UK]

Tearing down your own story and making it less fun to read for the sake of getting across some hidden meaning that isn't really that important, is really lame.

Poor analysis.

[Gene Reginato]

It depends a lot of how much you know about Batman, his history and how you feel about it.

I would think it would be very boring for someone who have read other Miller books before this one too. All his ticks were already there.

[Rod Nunley]

I hate DKR...personally I think it's the worst Batman story I've ever read.

I have never seen you more wrong than you are now.

http://www.movie-moron.com/wp-content/gallery/batman/batman-comic-cover-14.jpg