Waterboarding never works the first 182 times

[Captain Obvious]

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Was Waterboarded 183 Times in One Month (http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/18/khalid-sheikh-mohammed-was-waterboarded-183-times-in-one-month/)

[Ray G.]

Awesome.

[Doc Randy]

I thought the official talking point was that he cracked within minutes???


Edit:

From Wikipedia (follow the links for more data)



According to sources familiar with a private interview of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, he claimed to have been waterboarded five times.[94] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_boarding#cite_note-John_Mayer_Black_Sites-93) A CIA official told ABC News that "he had been water-boarded, and had won the admiration of his interrogators because it took him two to two-and-half minutes to start confessing—well beyond the average of 14 seconds observed in others".[101] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_boarding#cite_note-Independent_WB_091307-100) This is disputed by two former CIA officers who are reportedly friends with one of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's interrogators. The officers called this "bravado" and claimed that he was waterboarded only once. According to one of the officers, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed needed only to be shown the drowning equipment again before he "broke". "Waterboarding works", the former officer said. "Drowning is a baseline fear. So is falling. People dream about it. It’s human nature. Suffocation is a very scary thing. When you’re waterboarded, you’re inverted, so it exacerbates the fear. It’s not painful, but it scares the shit out of you". This former officer had been waterboarded himself in a training course. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, he claimed, "didn’t resist. He sang right away. He cracked real quick". He said, "A lot of them want to talk. Their egos are unimaginable. [He] was just a little doughboy. He couldn't stand toe to toe and fight it out".[94] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_boarding#cite_note-John_Mayer_Black_Sites-93) After being subjected to waterboarding, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed claimed involvement in thirty-one terrorist plots.[102] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_boarding#cite_note-BBC_WB_091507-101)


So if he cracked right away, why did they keep waterboarding him?

Somebody is lying.

[JoeE]

Even a broken system gets things right from time to time.

It's not what should have happened, but it's what he deserved.

[Treacle]

Fuck.

[Captain Obvious]

http://www.vanityfair.com/images/politics/2008/08/poar01_hitchens0808.jpg

Believe Me, It’s Torture (http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/08/hitchens200808)

[AndrewG]

I thought the official talking point was that he cracked within minutes???

They waterboarded him very quickly?

[AndrewG]

Even a broken system gets things right from time to time.

It's not what should have happened, but it's what he deserved.

Yes

[Ray G.]

Yes

Yep. Regardless of any other issues, nothing could ever make me regret the fact that this evil creature got what he deserved.

[Vonn Hennigar]

Awesome.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/Vonn_Hennigar/YakovSmirnoff.jpg

Whatta Country!

[JimboX]

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Was Waterboarded 183 Times in One Month

It wasn't enough if you ask me.

[Captain Obvious]

It's not what should have happened, but it's what he deserved.


Yep. Regardless of any other issues, nothing could ever make me regret the fact that this evil creature got what he deserved.

I imagine that's what the Iraqis who killed, burned, hung, and hacked those American contractors to pieces thought.

Welcome to the lowest common denominator, fellas. :thumb:

[Ray G.]

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/Vonn_Hennigar/YakovSmirnoff.jpg

Whatta Country!

Not many people I'd say it about.

In this case, I'll fully admit I'd love to see him get a fraction of the pain he and his ilk inflicted on this country.

[David Aspmo]

So, as perfectly evidenced by this thread, torturing these guys isn't about getting information, it isn't about some bullshit "ticking timebomb" scenario, it's just about physically hurting people we're angry with.

[bachman]

:rock:

[bachman]

I imagine that's what the Iraqis who killed, burned, hung, and hacked those American contractors to pieces thought.

Welcome to the lowest common denominator, fellas. :thumb:

Because killing, burning, hanging, and hacking to death is comparable to pouring water on someone's face.

Welcome to crazy-land! :babble:

[Ray G.]

Because killing, burning, hanging, and hacking to death is comparable to pouring water on someone's face.

Welcome to crazy-land! :babble:

Everything is the same, Bachman!

Pirates are just maritime repo-men against colonialism!

[Captain Obvious]

Because killing, burning, hanging, and hacking to death is comparable to pouring water on someone's face.

Eye for a eye! It's in duh BIBLE!

http://www.emilymagazine.com/ureview/ureview/images/greenpoint.jpg

[JoeE]

I imagine that's what the Iraqis who killed, burned, hung, and hacked those American contractors to pieces thought.

Welcome to the lowest common denominator, fellas. :thumb:

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed had planes flown into buildings. The contractors were delivering food.

[Ray G.]

Eye for a eye! It's in duh BIBLE!

http://www.emilymagazine.com/ureview/ureview/images/greenpoint.jpg

Boy, you're a charmer. :lol:

[AndrewG]

Because killing, burning, hanging, and hacking to death is comparable to pouring water on someone's face.

Welcome to crazy-land! :babble:

And because doing harm to a terrorist is comparable to doing harm against civilians.

[bachman]

Everything is the same, Bachman!

Pirates are just maritime repo-men against colonialism!

I know! Grabbing a random, innocent civilian and slowly cutting his head off, is just as bad pouring water on the face of a mass-murderer. It's so obvious.
We're just as bad as they are. We are eeeee-vil.

I'm moving to Spain.

[AndrewG]

Boy, you're a charmer. :lol:

Funny picture though

[Doc Randy]

So, as perfectly evidenced by this thread, torturing these guys isn't about getting information, it isn't about some bullshit "ticking timebomb" scenario, it's just about physically hurting people we're angry with.


Yep.

It also means our government and the previous administration has repeatedly lied to us about the scope of their use of water boarding.

It should also be remembered that we actually executed people under war crimes charges on the grounds that they water boarded people. Water boarding is illegal and is a war crime. Fact.


KSM needs to be punished, but the rule of law is more important that our blood lust.

[19bernardo87]

It's like they say: The (hundred and eighty-)third time is the charm!

[Captain Obvious]

Because killing, burning, hanging, and hacking to death is comparable to pouring water on someone's face.


Khalid Sheikh Mohammed had planes flown into buildings. The contractors were delivering food.

Anyone else want to make boneheaded comparisons? Now's the time.

[AndrewG]

Anyone else want to make boneheaded comparisons? Now's the time.

Like this one? ;)


I imagine that's what the Iraqis who killed, burned, hung, and hacked those American contractors to pieces thought.

[Jason California]

Yep. Regardless of any other issues, nothing could ever make me regret the fact that this evil creature got what he deserved.


I regret we sunk so low.

[Ray G.]

I regret we sunk so low.

I wish we hadn't. I'm not sorry we did. If that makes any sense.

[kylethoreau]

fuck the terrorist piece of shit. Makes me fucking shake my head in disgust when people piss and moan about doing this is wrong.


Really what should we do with them? Well we could just shoot them of course.

Bottom-line the fucker is guilty of far worse and personally I think he got off light with just the waterboarding.




you may commence with calling me an ignorant fool.

[Jason California]

I imagine that's what the Iraqis who killed, burned, hung, and hacked those American contractors to pieces thought.

Welcome to the lowest common denominator, fellas. :thumb:

Listen when this guy talks about the lowest common denominator people, he knows what he is talking about being part of it and all.

[Jason California]

I wish we hadn't. I'm not sorry we did. If that makes any sense.


That is Cartman level mental gymanstics Ray.

[Captain Obvious]

I just got this headline greenlit at Fark, by the way.
It'll show up on the main page at 3:42 a.m.

Fascists!!! :P

[Maestro]

I'm no torture expert but aren't there more painful methods they could have used to make him squeal faster?

[Captain Obvious]

Listen when this guy talks about the lowest common denominator people, he knows what he is talking about being part of it and all.

You sure can turn an elegant phrase.

[Jason California]

You sure can turn an elegant phrase.


I don't have wordsmith aspirations. I am happy as long as you got the point:)

[RegHorsten]

You guys need to lighten up.

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo288/oscarajo/bush_waterboarding.jpg

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh229/Bluesman-07/detaineesandKennedy.jpg

[19bernardo87]

That is Cartman level mental gymanstics Ray.

Mental Jiu-Jitsu. :-?

[DaveCummings]

Wow, I gotta say, though the dude has just a few posts, Captain Oblivious has managed to make my ignore list with his remarks. I mean, goddamn, even in threads where we're on the same side of the argument, he ends up making me defend the other side because of his remarks being borderline offensive.

[Jason California]

Wow, I gotta say, though the dude has just a few posts, Captain Oblivious has managed to make my ignore list with his remarks. I mean, goddamn, even in threads where we're on the same side of the argument, he ends up making me defend the other side because of his remarks being borderline offensive.


I just hope I am here to see him banned.

[DaveCummings]

I just hope I am here to see him banned.


True. I mean, though I had issues with the whole tea party thing, his remarks about them being a "Bunch of Paultards and birthers" I though went over the line and I ended up going from taking issue with the tea parties to defending them.

[RegHorsten]

I just hope I am here to see him banned.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r207/badgeroakwood/crossed-fingers.jpg

[Captain Obvious]

http://bleacherreport.com/images_root/image_pictures/0122/4309/crybaby_feature.jpghttp://www.picapp.com/ftp/Preview/0060/Crying_baby_Picapp_60379.jpghttp://www.kyle-brady.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/whinybaby.jpg

[RegHorsten]

http://bleacherreport.com/images_root/image_pictures/0122/4309/crybaby_feature.jpghttp://www.picapp.com/ftp/Preview/0060/Crying_baby_Picapp_60379.jpg
http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv68/RegHorsten3/Check-Check-Check.gif
http://www.kyle-brady.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/whinybaby.jpg


*fixed*

[kylethoreau]

http://bleacherreport.com/images_root/image_pictures/0122/4309/crybaby_feature.jpghttp://www.picapp.com/ftp/Preview/0060/Crying_baby_Picapp_60379.jpghttp://www.kyle-brady.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/whinybaby.jpg

awesome. Maturity!

[Jason California]

http://bleacherreport.com/images_root/image_pictures/0122/4309/crybaby_feature.jpghttp://www.picapp.com/ftp/Preview/0060/Crying_baby_Picapp_60379.jpghttp://www.kyle-brady.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/whinybaby.jpg

You sure can dish it better than you take it.

[Captain Obvious]

You sure can dish it better than you take it.

Sorry; I couldn't come up with anything scuzzier than "I just hope I am here to see him banned."

[Jason California]

Sorry; I couldn't come up with anything scuzzier than "I just hope I am here to see him banned."

You already came at me that way. How often do you have to find a new forum?

[bachman]

http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=46949

CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles

The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of “enhanced techniques” of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) -- including the use of waterboarding -- caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles

After he was subjected to the “waterboard” technique, KSM became cooperative, providing intelligence that led to the capture of key al Qaeda allies and, eventually, the closing down of an East Asian terrorist cell that had been tasked with carrying out the 9/11-style attack on Los Angeles

---------------------------------

Look at that picture! I bet that's the cleanest he's been in years!

[Ray G.]

Satisfying AND productive! :rock:

[SgtPepper]

http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=46949

CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles

The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of “enhanced techniques” of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) -- including the use of waterboarding -- caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles

After he was subjected to the “waterboard” technique, KSM became cooperative, providing intelligence that led to the capture of key al Qaeda allies and, eventually, the closing down of an East Asian terrorist cell that had been tasked with carrying out the 9/11-style attack on Los Angeles

---------------------------------

Look at that picture! I bet that's the cleanest he's been in years!

I doubt the veracity of this article. I wasn't able to find a second story that confirmed it. This clearly has new value and is timely. The lack of any other articles from major news organizations raises my suspicions, so I'm calling source bias on this one.

[Joe Kalicki]

You already came at me that way. How often do you have to find a new forum?

I think the real quetsion is - how many times has he been on this one?

[En Sabah Poo]

You know, I say this with absolutely no hesitation, but some of you on this board are sick twisted fucks. To not care about actual justice but medieval feelings of revenge through torture. It's times like these I'm glad this is just a forum and not ever in person discussion, because if I met some of you, I'm fairly certain I'd fucking throw up.

[Brad N.]

Because killing, burning, hanging, and hacking to death is comparable to pouring water on someone's face.

Welcome to crazy-land! :babble:

:mistrust:

Proof you have no clue what you're talking about.

[Thomas Mauer]

I'm moving to Spain.

Don't let the Basque seperatist terror organization ETA get you! :)

[Brother Power the Gong]

I doubt the veracity of this article. I wasn't able to find a second source confirmed it. So I'm calling source bias.

It has never been confirmed, so your doubt is well-founded. In fact, the LA government had no idea there was anything resembling an imminent danger until Bush announced it as the domestic wiretapping story (very much confirmed) began to draw criticism.

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/feb/10/nation/na-bush10

[CPA]

I thought the official talking point was that he cracked within minutes???


Edit:

From Wikipedia (follow the links for more data)



So if he cracked right away, why did they keep waterboarding him?

Somebody is lying.

Yea. Could it be the guy that helped plan the destruction of two buildings? No.

It has to be the CIA, right?

[Fake Pat]

You know, I say this with absolutely no hesitation, but some of you on this board are sick twisted fucks. To not care about actual justice but medieval feelings of revenge through torture. It's times like these I'm glad this is just a forum and not ever in person discussion, because if I met some of you, I'm fairly certain I'd fucking throw up.

{insert that gif of orson wells clapping here}

[Brad N.]

Boy, it sure is nice to see people who have been here a while pick on the new kids they don't agree with by wishing their banning. Seriously boys, grow up. Captain Obvious hasn't said or done anything remotely over the line or ban worthy in any of his posts I've read. Try talking to me or any other long term veteran here like that and see how far you cowards get.

[Brother Power the Gong]

Boy, it sure is nice to see people who have been here a while pick on the new kids they don't agree with by wishing their banning. Seriously boys, grow up. Captain Obvious hasn't said or done anything remotely over the line or ban worthy in any of his posts I've read. Try talking to me or any other long term veteran here and see how far you cowards get.


{insert that gif of orson wells clapping here}

:thumb:

[CPA]

You know, I say this with absolutely no hesitation, but some of you on this board are sick twisted fucks. To not care about actual justice but medieval feelings of revenge through torture. It's times like these I'm glad this is just a forum and not ever in person discussion, because if I met some of you, I'm fairly certain I'd fucking throw up.

UUhhh...we are talking about pouring water down someone's nose to simulate drowning, right?

This guy planned flying planes into various buildings.

Okay, for the sake of argument, lets stop. Now what? One of you come up with one viable solution to intelligence gathering.

Seriously, I am sure if we sign a treaty with them they will stop. I mean Chamberlain had a treaty with Hitler and that worked.

[Brother Power the Gong]

Seriously, I am sure if we sign a treaty with them they will stop. I mean Chamberlain had a treaty with Hitler and that worked.

http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showthread.php?t=175131

[bachman]

It's times like these I'm glad this is just a forum and not ever in person discussion, because if I met some of you, I'm fairly certain I'd fucking throw up.

That would be funny.

[Joe Kalicki]

Boy, it sure is nice to see people who have been here a while pick on the new kids they don't agree with by wishing their banning. Seriously boys, grow up. Captain Obvious hasn't said or done anything remotely over the line or ban worthy in any of his posts I've read. Try talking to me or any other long term veteran here like that and see how far you cowards get.

I would argue that he's gone out of his way to irritate at least since his golf thread got an unkind reaction.

[Fake Pat]

UUhhh...we are talking about pouring water down someone's nose to simulate drowning, right?

This guy planned flying planes into various buildings.

Okay, for the sake of argument, lets stop. Now what? One of you come up with one viable solution to intelligence gathering.

Seriously, I am sure if we sign a treaty with them they will stop. I mean Chamberlain had a treaty with Hitler and that worked.

How about any of the other ways the experts have used for years?

You know, the ones that actually work.

[CPA]

http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showthread.php?t=175131

Haha...you know that is the second kind of response I expected. The first was this was Bush's fault, but I have to give it to you. You went straight for the meritless personal attack.

So, do you have a real response? Or do you just complain about stuff all the time?

[Wigner's Friend]

http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showthread.php?t=175131

:)

[David Aspmo]

Okay, for the sake of argument, lets stop. Now what? One of you come up with one viable solution to intelligence gathering.
As most any expert will tell you, there are a myriad of different interrogation techniques that are far more effective at getting reliable information than any kind of torture (which really doesn't work at all).

[Jason California]

Boy, it sure is nice to see people who have been here a while pick on the new kids they don't agree with by wishing their banning. Seriously boys, grow up. Captain Obvious hasn't said or done anything remotely over the line or ban worthy in any of his posts I've read. Try talking to me or any other long term veteran here like that and see how far you cowards get.


Go kick rocks Brad. I will call you on bullshit if I see you do it and I call him on being ass. Don't call me a coward.

[GelfXIII]

You know, I say this with absolutely no hesitation, but some of you on this board are sick twisted fucks. To not care about actual justice but medieval feelings of revenge through torture. It's times like these I'm glad this is just a forum and not ever in person discussion, because if I met some of you, I'm fairly certain I'd fucking throw up.

Amen, Bill.

[Ray G.]

Boy, it sure is nice to see people who have been here a while pick on the new kids they don't agree with by wishing their banning. Seriously boys, grow up. Captain Obvious hasn't said or done anything remotely over the line or ban worthy in any of his posts I've read. Try talking to me or any other long term veteran here like that and see how far you cowards get.

Remind me, how did you feel about Khan! again? :lol:

[Brother Power the Gong]

Haha...you know that is the second kind of response I expected. The first was this was Bush's fault, but I have to give it to you. You went straight for the meritless personal attack.

So, do you have a real response? Or do you just complain about stuff all the time?

How was that personal? Do you know what that word means?

My real response is that we abide by the laws, principles and practices we have upheld for decades-to-centuries. Falling short in the face of fear and anger lessens us.

[Fake Pat]

Go kick rocks Brad.

Whoa, whoa, WHOA!

I don't think language like that is necessary!

[Xander Boune]

I'm glad Obama released the torture memos, but I think he should take Cheney's advice and release documents about the effectiveness of torture. Cheney lied about asking the CIA to declassify them, so he's probably bluffing, but I would like to see a study of the amount of and number of people we tortured versus the actual actionable intelligence we received from it. If they produced good intelligence, it wouldn't retroactively excuse those who tortured and those who drafted those memos (they should all be prosecuted), but if they didn't, we won't have to hear bullshit unsupported claims of their efficacy anymore.

[Fake Pat]

Haha...you know that is the second kind of response I expected. The first was this was Bush's fault, but I have to give it to you. You went straight for the meritless personal attack.

So, do you have a real response? Or do you just complain about stuff all the time?

Even by your standards this post makes no sense.

[Ray G.]

I'm glad Obama released the torture memos, but I think he should take Cheney's advice and release documents about the effectiveness of torture. Cheney lied about asking the CIA to declassify them, so he's probably bluffing, but I would like to see a study of the amount of and number of people we tortured versus the actual actionable intelligence we received from it. If they produced good intelligence, it wouldn't retroactively excuse those who tortured and those who drafted those memos (they should all be prosecuted), but if they didn't, we won't have to hear bullshit unsupported claims of their efficacy anymore.

So what you're saying is that you want to know if torture works, but it wouldn't actually change anything if it does?

[Brother Power the Gong]

:)
:thumb:

Whoa, whoa, WHOA!

I don't think language like that is necessary!
I bet he wouldn't say that to Brad's face.

I'm glad Obama released the torture memos, but I think he should take Cheney's advice and release documents about the effectiveness of torture. Cheney lied about asking the CIA to declassify them, so he's probably bluffing, but I would like to see a study of the amount of and number of people we tortured versus the actual actionable intelligence we received from it. If they produced good intelligence, it wouldn't retroactively excuse those who tortured and those who drafted those memos (they should all be prosecuted), but if they didn't, we won't have to hear bullshit unsupported claims of their efficacy anymore.
Yep.

[CPA]

How about any of the other ways the experts have used for years?

You know, the ones that actually work.

Once again, you did not answer the question or premise. Show me something that works.

http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=46949

This shows that waterboarding helped stop the LA attacks. This is from teh CIA and not some paper either.

Now, you guys can demean this, but it is true no matter how much you do not like it.

[bachman]

You know how some reporters and writers have volunteered to be waterboarded, to see how bad it is?

Well, I think I'll volunteer to have my head cut off, and then be put onto a plane that's flown into a building. Apparently, according to the disgust and outrage of so many here, the experiences are comparable. So I should be fine afterwards! I'll write up an article and let you know how it goes! :)

[Jason California]

Whoa, whoa, WHOA!

I don't think language like that is necessary!


I am sorry, sometimes my emotions get the better of me.

[Fake Pat]

You know how some reporters and writers have volunteered to be waterboarded, to see how bad it is?

Well, I think I'll volunteer to have my head cut off, and then be put onto a plane that's flown into a building. Apparently, according to the disgust and outrage of so many here, the experiences are comparable. So I should be fine afterwards! I'll write up an article and let you know how it goes! :)

Straw man.

[Ray G.]

You know how some reporters and writers have volunteered to be waterboarded, to see how bad it is?

Well, I think I'll volunteer to have my head cut off, and then be put onto a plane that's flown into a building. Apparently, according to the disgust and outrage of so many here, the experiences are comparable. So I should be fine afterwards! I'll write up an article and let you know how it goes! :)

Oh, Bach, I love how you're never afraid to pour gasoline on a raging fire. :lol:

[Brother Power the Gong]

You know how some reporters and writers have volunteered to be waterboarded, to see how bad it is?

Well, I think I'll volunteer to have my head cut off, and then be put onto a plane that's flown into a building. Apparently, according to the disgust and outrage of so many here, the experiences are comparable. So I should be fine afterwards! I'll write up an article and let you know how it goes! :)

You're lying again.

[bachman]

How was that personal? Do you know what that word means?

My real response is that we abide by the laws, principles and practices we have upheld for decades-to-centuries. Falling short in the face of fear and anger lessens us.

Holy shit! You were there, behind-the-scenes, of every war and battle in American history! You're like Forrest Gump! Or Wolverine!

[Pick The System!]

183 times in one month? That's a lot of waterboarding.

Oh well.

[Wigner's Friend]

Okay, for the sake of argument, lets stop. Now what? One of you come up with one viable solution to intelligence gathering.

Waterboarding is torture. I don't care that that asshole got waterboarded, but I do care that we were the ones doing it. It's a poor precedent and a very slippery slope both morally and legally.

[Ray G.]

183 times in one month? That's a lot of waterboarding.

Oh well.

I don't know why this post made me LOL, but it did.

[David Aspmo]

You know how some reporters and writers have volunteered to be waterboarded, to see how bad it is?

Well, I think I'll volunteer to have my head cut off, and then be put onto a plane that's flown into a building. Apparently, according to the disgust and outrage of so many here, the experiences are comparable. So I should be fine afterwards! I'll write up an article and let you know how it goes! :)
Does it really have to be explained to you that just because one thing is worse, that doesn't mean something else can't also be unacceptably bad?

[Fake Pat]

Once again, you did not answer the question or premise. Show me something that works.

No.

If you really are this willfully ignorant as to the basic concepts of intelligence gathering, there's no point.

I hope you continue enjoying the pain of others for the rest of your obviously very healthy life.

[SgtPepper]

Once again, you did not answer the question or premise. Show me something that works.

http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=46949

This shows that waterboarding helped stop the LA attacks. This is from teh CIA and not some paper either.

Now, you guys can demean this, but it is true no matter how much you do not like it.

I wasn't able to find a second story or source that confirmed it, so I call bullshit and source bias. I'm suspicious because I've never heard of this news organization.

[Fake Pat]

Holy shit! You were there, behind-the-scenes, of every war and battle in American history! You're like Forrest Gump! Or Wolverine!

Meaningless.

I dare you to make a legit point.

[Kingsumo]

Ok, yes, waterboarding is obviously not comparable to suicide bombings, and the sick shit that a lot of the terrorists do.

However, that does not excuse us from starting down that merry little path. The fact is, torture is torture, and there is a reason most civilized people do not excuse its use.

Beyond the fact that its merits are questionable at best, once it is a given that we no longer abide by the Geneva conventions, how much do you think people are going to be willingly taken? Seems to me, if I knew I was going to be held indefinitely and tortured, or I could die for my savior and get 72 virgins; I would sure as shit attempt to martyr myself instead, and take a hell of a lot of my perceived enemies with me.

[bachman]

Waterboarding is torture. I don't care that that asshole got waterboarded, but I do care that we were the ones doing it. It's a poor precedent and a very slippery slope both morally and legally.

Nah. It's a scare tactic and it makes one uncomfortable.

Google "torture", then you'll see some real examples of what torture is.
I mean, if this upsets you guys, you're gonna be really disgusted and outraged when you find out how WW2 ended.

[CPA]

I wasn't able to find a second story or source that confirmed it, so I call bullshit and source bias. I'm suspicious because I've never heard of this news organization.

Because it was just declassified.

[GelfXIII]

Once again, you did not answer the question or premise. Show me something that works.

http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=46949

This shows that waterboarding helped stop the LA attacks. This is from teh CIA and not some paper either.

Now, you guys can demean this, but it is true no matter how much you do not like it.

Did you read your source's banner? "The RIGHT News. RIGHT now." Think that's accidental?

Did you see their "featured Commentary"? "Obama Welcomes America-Bashing"

Look at their "history" page:

Study after study by the Media Research Center, the parent organization of CNSNews.com, clearly demonstrate a liberal bias in many news outlets – bias by commission and bias by omission – that results in a frequent double-standard in editorial decisions on what constitutes "news."

I wouldn't believe this website if it said there would be death and taxes in the future.

[Brother Power the Gong]

Holy shit! You were there, behind-the-scenes, of every war and battle in American history! You're like Forrest Gump! Or Wolverine!

Prove me wrong. Washington demanded we treat British troops well, despite reports they had tortured our people. Deviations from that have been aberrations, at best. But since you know this subject so thoroughly and are so well-sourced, please prove me wrong.

[David Aspmo]

Once again, you did not answer the question or premise. Show me something that works.

http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=46949

This shows that waterboarding helped stop the LA attacks. This is from teh CIA and not some paper either.

Now, you guys can demean this, but it is true no matter how much you do not like it.
The quotes are actually from a Bush Department of Justice memo - and the language used makes it painfully obvious that it was politically motivated.

Edit: As others have noted - provided that those are actually quotes of anything. A site like that, I wouldn't dare put it past them to make something like this up entirely.

[Fake Pat]

Because it was just declassified.

You are deluding yourself.

Accept reality. I know it will hurt at first, but you'll be better off in the long run.

[SgtPepper]

Because it was just declassified.

Until I can get a second source or story, and based on the publisher of the story, I'm calling bullshit.

[Jason California]

Nah. It's a scare tactic and it makes one uncomfortable.

Google "torture", then you'll see some real examples of what torture is.
I mean, if this upsets you guys, you're gonna be really disgusted and outraged when you find out how WW2 ended.

I am not a fan of the episode.

[bachman]

Meaningless.

I dare you to make a legit point.

:) "Meaningless" because Fake Pat says so.

My point is that I'm sure things like this have always been done throughout history, by all countries, on all sides. The difference is, we let the guys walk away.

[thatguyfromsyracuse]

You know how some reporters and writers have volunteered to be waterboarded, to see how bad it is?

Well, I think I'll volunteer to have my head cut off, and then be put onto a plane that's flown into a building. Apparently, according to the disgust and outrage of so many here, the experiences are comparable. So I should be fine afterwards! I'll write up an article and let you know how it goes! :)

That's a trick worthy of GOB Bluth! Even Tony Wonder!

[edwardmblake]

Once again, you did not answer the question or premise. Show me something that works.

http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=46949

This shows that waterboarding helped stop the LA attacks. This is from teh CIA and not some paper either.

Now, you guys can demean this, but it is true no matter how much you do not like it.

That article could be true, but the MRC is hardly a reliable organization. They have been known to make up things before.

[Xander Boune]

So what you're saying is that you want to know if torture works, but it wouldn't actually change anything if it does?

I personally think torture is inexcusable, and it's illegal nationally and internationally on top of that (we prosecuted the Japanese for waterboarding as war crimes after WWII), so people who committed those acts should be prosecuted. As to whether it will change anything, I know where I stand (illegal!), but if it's going to happen I want there to be transparency for a real public debate on the issue.

[Fake Pat]

Nah. It's a scare tactic and it makes one uncomfortable.

No, it's torture.

There's a clear consensus on this issue.

[Kingsumo]

:) "Meaningless" because Fake Pat says so.

My point is that I'm sure things like this have always been done throughout history, by all countries, on all sides. The difference is, we let the guys walk away.

And the fact that a lot of people seemed to laud in it. There were way too many people that came out as being way to happy we were using these tactics.

[Fake Pat]

:) "Meaningless" because Fake Pat says so.

My point is that I'm sure things like this have always been done throughout history, by all countries, on all sides. The difference is, we let the guys walk away.

Which is not a point.

Argument from tradition is a classical logical fallacy. Not because I said so, but because it is.

[SgtPepper]

That's a trick worthy of GOB Bluth! Even Tony Wonder!

He'll make the cover of Poof!

[CPA]

You are deluding yourself.

Accept reality. I know it will hurt at first, but you'll be better off in the long run.

I have to admit you guys are probably right about everything. I think we just need to go and have a conference with them and make them promise to stop. I am sure it is all of our fault and that they will stop once we ask them too.

How about we get them to sign an agreement? Maybe give them all they want? That should stop them.

[bachman]

That's a trick worthy of GOB Bluth! Even Tony Wonder!

I think I can pull it off.

But you all have to believe!!!!

[Brother Power the Gong]

:)My point is that I'm sure things like this have always been done throughout history, by all countries, on all sides.

But I thought we are supposed to be the best, most moral, most righteous and just, and most free.








Seriously, that's what I thought.

[Fake Pat]

I have to admit you guys are probably right about everything. I think we just need to go and have a conference with them and make them promise to stop. I am sure it is all of our fault and that they will stop once we ask them too.

How about we get them to sign an agreement? Maybe give them all they want? That should stop them.

I am so glad you guys don't make any important decisions for me.

Straw man.

See, this is why we keep using it! It covers all that absurd bullshit in one fell swoop.

[Brother Power the Gong]

I have to admit you guys are probably right about everything. I think we just need to go and have a conference with them and make them promise to stop. I am sure it is all of our fault and that they will stop once we ask them too.

How about we get them to sign an agreement? Maybe give them all they want? That should stop them.

Oh, shit, I am so close to unloading a "personal" attack on you right now it hurts.

[SgtPepper]

I think I can pull it off.

But you all have to believe!!!!

If I have to clap my hands and say "I do believe in Bachman," then you're probably doomed. I hated that part in Peter Pan.

[David Aspmo]

I have to admit you guys are probably right about everything. I think we just need to go and have a conference with them and make them promise to stop. I am sure it is all of our fault and that they will stop once we ask them too.

How about we get them to sign an agreement? Maybe give them all they want? That should stop them.

I am so glad you guys don't make any important decisions for me.
You honestly don't understand the concept of the "straw man" argument, do you?

[Brother Power the Gong]

You honestly don't understand the concept of the "straw man" argument, do you?

Again with the personal attacks. You liberals can't debate the facts.

[Jim T.]

That article could be true, but the MRC is hardly a reliable organization. They have been known to make up things before.

All of the news sources are quoting from the same declassified memo. It's here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30249847/ Go to page 10 of the second memo.

[thatguyfromsyracuse]

I think I can pull it off.

But you all have to believe!!!!

I'm not consenting to anything, if this trick doesn't work, I don't want to be an accomplice to murder!

[bachman]

Also, while we're at it, I think our military forces should have their actual guns replaced with nerf guns. Real guns could kill somebody!!!! And then we'd be evil.

[Brother Power the Gong]

All of the news sources are quoting from the same declassified memo. It's here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30249847/ Go to page 10 of the second memo.

Waitaminute, none of these show Obama's Kenyan birth certificate. I call bullshit.

[bachman]

If I have to clap my hands and say "I do believe in Bachman," then you're probably doomed. I hated that part in Peter Pan.

Meh. I've had a good run.

[SgtPepper]

Also, while we're at it, I think our military forces should have their actual guns replaced with nerf guns. Real guns could kill somebody!!!! And then we'd be evil.

But then the terrorists will use airsoft guns, or worse; fill super soakers with urine!

[Ben]

Not many people I'd say it about.

In this case, I'll fully admit I'd love to see him get a fraction of the pain he and his ilk inflicted on this country.
It's people like you that forced Q to put humanity on trial in the first episode of Star Trek The Next Generation!

[bachman]

Waitaminute, none of these show Obama's Kenyan birth certificate. I call bullshit.

What was that straw-thing called again? :)

[Kingsumo]

Also, while we're at it, I think our military forces should have their actual guns replaced with nerf guns. Real guns could kill somebody!!!! And then we'd be evil.

...

I honestly can no longer tell if you are being serious or not.


Waitaminute, none of these show Obama's Kenyan birth certificate. I call bullshit.

:lol:

[bachman]

It's people like you that forced Q to put humanity on trial in the first episode of Star Trek The Next Generation!

But Q was an awesome, exciting, and powerful villain! Everyone loves the Q episodes.

[bachman]

...

I honestly can no longer tell if you are being serious or not.



I never joke about Nerf products.

Ever.

[Brother Power the Gong]

What was that straw-thing called again? :)

You don't know what that phrase means, too. Really, it's not personal.

[Wigner's Friend]

Nah. It's a scare tactic and it makes one uncomfortable.

Google "torture", then you'll see some real examples of what torture is.
I mean, if this upsets you guys, you're gonna be really disgusted and outraged when you find out how WW2 ended.

Dwight Eisenhower, Omar Bradley, Douglas MacArthur, and George Patton all disagree with your assessment, but you know what sort of doves they are.

[thatguyfromsyracuse]

Now I see what you guys are arguing about! I thought waterboarding was like boogieboarding! I didn't know why you would want to deprive somebody of having some fun in the sun! Boy is my face red!

[Doc Randy]

Here are some simple facts:
1) Waterboarding is torture. It is legally codified as torture. The US has prosecuted and executed people for engaging in this act of torture.
2) The Army does not waterboard. They have rejected it as counterproductive and a violation of both the Geneva Convention and the values of the US and our Army.

[En Sabah Poo]

UUhhh...we are talking about pouring water down someone's nose to simulate drowning, right?

This guy planned flying planes into various buildings.

Okay, for the sake of argument, lets stop. Now what? One of you come up with one viable solution to intelligence gathering.

Seriously, I am sure if we sign a treaty with them they will stop. I mean Chamberlain had a treaty with Hitler and that worked.

There is a hell of a big difference between being ok with waterboarding as a source of information gathering, and personally enjoying that a person was tortured. Not that I'd really expect some of you to understand the difference.

[David Aspmo]

All of the news sources are quoting from the same declassified memo. It's here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30249847/ Go to page 10 of the second memo.
Okay, and as I said before, the language used makes it painfully obvious that it was politically motivated.

[Jason California]

I like "Walling". They only throw you against a false wall AND they give you extra support! It should be fun.

[bachman]

Dwight Eisenhower, Omar Bradley, Douglas MacArthur, and George Patton all disagree with your assessment, but you know what sort of doves they are.

Yes, and I tell my girlfriend that I don't notice when an attractive woman walks by, so I can appear to be a better person and so she doesn't go into a tizzy.

War is awful. We're the least-awful out there.

[Ben]

Now I see what you guys are arguing about! I thought waterboarding was like boogieboarding! I didn't know why you would want to deprive somebody of having some fun in the sun! Boy is my face red!Oh... Nevermind.
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9702/emilylitella792387thumb.jpg

[Fake Pat]

Okay, and as I said before, the language used makes it painfully obvious that it was politically motivated.

There's also that one part in the memo that says there is ZERO conclusive evidence that any information gathered ever stopped an actual attack.

[Ben]

There is a hell of a big difference between being ok with waterboarding as a source of information gathering, and personally enjoying that a person was tortured. Not that I'd really expect some of you to understand the difference.The people that act as if they're getting pleasure from the punishment of criminals are very disturbing to me. I can understand being comforted or feeling content that justice was done, or feeling kind of bittersweet since whatever the wrong was that was committed was still done and can't be taken back.

But when I read Ray's posts, he's like "Blood! Blood! Sweet, tasty blood! More!"

[Brother Power the Gong]

There's also that one part in the memo that says there is ZERO conclusive evidence that any information gathered ever stopped an actual attack.
That's what Dick Cheney is so pissed about!

[Fake Pat]

The people that act as if they're getting pleasure from the punishment of criminals are very disturbing to me. I can understand being comforted or feeling content that justice was done, or feeling kind of bittersweet since whatever the wrong was that was committed was still done and can't be taken back.

But when I read Ray's posts, he's like "Blood! Blood! Sweet, tasty blood! More!"

It's really pretty sad.

[Brother Power the Gong]

The people that act as if they're getting pleasure from the punishment of criminals are very disturbing to me. I can understand being comforted or feeling content that justice was done, or feeling kind of bittersweet since whatever the wrong was that was committed was still done and can't be taken back.

But when I read Ray's posts, he's like "Blood! Blood! Sweet, tasty blood! More!"

Only Arab and/or Muslim blood, Ben. I'll not let you throw out these sweeping generalizations.

[bachman]

But when I read Ray's posts, he's like "Blood! Blood! Sweet, tasty blood! More!"

Waterboarding does not make one bleed. Unless, it was improved upon somehow... Hmmmm...

I think I need to create Waterboarding 2.0
Nick Spencer and I can do a cross-over!

[Doc Randy]

War is awful. We're the least-awful out there.

Prove it.

[bachman]

Only Arab and/or Muslim blood, Ben. I'll not let you throw out these sweeping generalizations.

This is another great chesnut. Obviously based on all those posts where Ray has defended Hitler, and many other non-Arab killers.

[Jason California]

There is a hell of a big difference between being ok with waterboarding as a source of information gathering, and personally enjoying that a person was tortured. Not that I'd really expect some of you to understand the difference.


Bill has homed in on with my problem with a lot o the pro waterboarding crowd. You are glad the guy is being inflicted with pain. Whether he deserves or not, you getting pleasure out of that is pretty twisted. It is the same mentality of those folks that have tailgates at excecutions.

[bachman]

Prove it.

Read a few hours of the world news on any given day.

[Xander Boune]

Read a few hours of the world news on any given day.

What are your "world news" sources?

[Doc Randy]

Waterboarding does not make one bleed. Unless, it was improved upon somehow... Hmmmm...


The rack and electrocution don't necessarily make someone bleed, but they are still torture.

If bloodletting is your key method of defining torture, then you have issues.

Regardless, water boarding can cause severe bleeding from trauma to the throat, trachea, and esophagus.

[Ray G.]

It's hilarious how half of the groupthink gang on this board has become completely incapable of discussing an issue without turning the focus onto attacking fellow boarders. :lol:

[Wigner's Friend]

Yes, and I tell my girlfriend that I don't notice when an attractive woman walks by, so I can appear to be a better person and so she doesn't go into a tizzy.

War is awful. We're the least-awful out there.

I'm not disagreeing with you on the last point at all. We sometimes handcuff ourselves while trying to win a fight and non-uniformed fighters without a nation provide a difficult legal trick. But when it comes down to it, waterboarding steps over the line. It's been deemed an unacceptable tool to use in interrogation since the Philippine-American War.

Also, your first analogy is completely erroneous. Maybe I'm missing something, but both the rhetoric and records from American run POW camps during WWII show humane treatment.

There's a great passage from Theodore Rex by Edmund Morris that covers Roosevelt's thoughts on the issue.

"For the very reason that the president intends to back up the Army in the heartiest fashion in every lawful and legitimate method of doing its work; he also intends to see that the most vigorous care is exercised to detect and prevent any cruelty or brutality and that men who are guilty thereof are punished. Great as the provocation has been in dealing with foes who habitually resort to treachery, murder and torture against our men, nothing can justify or will be held to justify the use of torture or inhuman conduct of any kind on the part of the American Army.”

[Ray G.]

The rack and electrocution don't necessarily make someone bleed, but they are still torture.

If bloodletting is your key method of defining torture, then you have issues.

Regardless, water boarding can cause severe bleeding from trauma to the throat, trachea, and esophagus.

Would you agree that, whether or not waterboarding is moral, it's far less extreme and likely to cause permanent damage than most other kinds of torture?

[En Sabah Poo]

It's hilarious how half of the groupthink gang on this board has become completely incapable of discussing an issue without turning the focus onto attacking fellow boarders. :lol:

Hey Ray, I don't give a fuck what you think because your first response to someone being tortured 6 times a day for a month was "Awesome" and that he got what he deserved. Any slams coming your way are completely deserved.

[Wigner's Friend]

Would you agree that, whether or not waterboarding is moral, it's far less extreme and likely to cause permanent damage than most other kinds of torture?

Yes, but it's still torture.

[Fake Pat]

It's hilarious how half of the groupthink gang on this board has become completely incapable of discussing an issue without turning the focus onto attacking fellow boarders. :lol:

It's hilarious how you try to label those with reality on their side "groupthinkers".

[Ray G.]

Hey Ray, I don't give a fuck what you think because your first response to someone being tortured 6 times a day for a month was "Awesome" and that he got what he deserved. Any slams coming your way are completely deserved.

:lol:

Exactly.

[Jason California]

It's hilarious how half of the groupthink gang on this board has become completely incapable of discussing an issue without turning the focus onto attacking fellow boarders. :lol:


Your motivation in doing this is partly disturbing and casts a negative shadow on anything else you might bring to the table.

[Brother Power the Gong]

Read a few hours of the world news on any given day.
Oh, now you're all Obama is the One? Heh. Fail.

Hey Ray, I don't give a fuck what you think because your first response to someone being tortured 6 times a day for a month was "Awesome" and that he got what he deserved. Any slams coming your way are completely deserved.
:lol:

[Fake Pat]

:lol:

Exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

You do kinda deserve it.

[Marcdachamp]

That's a trick worthy of GOB Bluth! Even Tony Wonder!

Illusions. Tricks are something a whore does for money... or candy!

[En Sabah Poo]

It's hilarious how you try to label those with reality on their side "groupthinkers".

Yet if one Israeli soldier is held hostage, or hell, tortured, I'm sure Ray would bring on his calls for the destruction of Palestine even more so than usual.

[Nick Spencer]

Wow, Ray... gross.

[Brother Power the Gong]

Yet if one Israeli soldier is held hostage, or hell, tortured, I'm sure Ray would bring on his calls for the destruction of Palestine even more so than usual.

No, Ray would sign-up and fight the bastards.






No, I'm sorry, he would log-on and bitch about them.

[bachman]

No, I'm sorry, he would log-on and bitch about them.

Regarding "logging on and talking rather than acting": I'm pretty sure we're all guilty of that in some extent.

[Wigner's Friend]

Regarding "logging on and talking rather than acting": I'm pretty sure we're all guilty of that in some extent.

I know I am.

[Brother Power the Gong]

Regarding "logging on and talking rather than acting": I'm pretty sure we're all guilty of that in some extent.

Hardly. I go buy comics and records on eBay in times of crisis.

[thatguyfromsyracuse]

I think everybody needs to hug a puppy or something, because everybody is way too fucking serious.

[Wigner's Friend]

No, Ray would sign-up and fight the bastards.






No, I'm sorry, he would log-on and bitch about them.

I'd like to show the board one of the best argumentum ad personam I've ever seen.

[Joe Kalicki]

Guys, please, can't we all just agree that Captain Obvious is annoying and move on?

[Nick Spencer]

"For the very reason that the president intends to back up the Army in the heartiest fashion in every lawful and legitimate method of doing its work; he also intends to see that the most vigorous care is exercised to detect and prevent any cruelty or brutality and that men who are guilty thereof are punished. Great as the provocation has been in dealing with foes who habitually resort to treachery, murder and torture against our men, nothing can justify or will be held to justify the use of torture or inhuman conduct of any kind on the part of the American Army.”

Great quote. I'm almost frightened by people who don't get this concept. It's like they don't understand the very basics of what the American ideal is. We're supposed to be better than this.

[Morrison_Lad]

This obviously was abhorrent behavior on our part, and we should be ashamed. Also, the people responsible should be held accountable.

It's called the rule of law, and it is the foundation of this nation.


But what's worse about this entire debacle is that nothing, absolutely NOTHING could be a better recruiting tool for those we are supposedly trying to stop. Every story like this damages our ability to battle those who want to harm the ideals for which we stand, harm us.

The world is a small place in this day and age, and reputations can be demolished nearly instantaneously, even those which have been carefully cared for.

When we engage in an activity such as this, we accomplish one thing: We convince those who have been told "The United States is EVIL!" that they were being told the Truth.

[Brother Power the Gong]

I'd like to show the board one of the best argumentum ad personam I've ever seen.

Yeah, yeah. As long as you use my name with the word "best" and not in conjunction with "blow-job provider" or "pedophile," I'm OK with it.

Better than chickenhawk advocacy, which was the whole point, Mr. Fancy Latinpants.

[Ryan Elliott]

So let's see. Ray, Bachman, and CPA have NO idea what they're talking about.

Yep. Business as usual.


I think everybody needs to hug a puppy or something, because everybody is way too fucking serious.


I'm starting to notice that of A LOT of people, and not just on the board.

[Nick Spencer]

I'm also struck by how many people in this thread equate opposition to this with weakness (i.e. "we should just talk it out so they'll stop").

No one doubts we're facing an uncivilized and brutal enemy. But if their attacks causes us to compromise our own ideals and become more like them, then those attacks were pretty fucking successful, I'd say. That's real weakness right there.

[Khrutch]

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Was Waterboarded 183 Times in One Month (http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/18/khalid-sheikh-mohammed-was-waterboarded-183-times-in-one-month/)

Good. Anyone who chooses to be a terrorist can suffer the consequences of that choice.

[Ryan Elliott]

Good. Anyone who chooses to be a terrorist can suffer the consequences of that choice.

:lol: Finally. You're here.


What's the "trifecta" word for four people or things?

[Joe Kalicki]

Good. Anyone who chooses to be a terrorist can suffer the consequences of that choice.

All their terrorist gatherings took place on Friday night. You have any idea what that does to someone's social life?

Hasn't he suffered enough!

[Ryan Elliott]

All their terrorist gatherings took place on Friday night. You have any idea what that does to someone's social life?

Hasn't he suffered enough!

:lol:

Oh man. That's rough. I can't even function unless I have fridays off. That poor man.

[SgtPepper]

Yeah, yeah. As long as you use my name with the word "best" and not in conjunction with "blow-job provider" or "pedophile," I'm OK with it.

Better than chickenhawk advocacy, which was the whole point, Mr. Fancy Latinpants.

Ille est pugnantes verbos.

[Nick Spencer]

Good. Anyone who chooses to be a terrorist can suffer the consequences of that choice.

I think we're the ones who suffer the consequences of abandoning ideals that served us well for centuries. If we could refrain from torture against The Nazis, I'm pretty certain we could've maintained our dignity in the face of these assholes.

[Magnum V.I.]

I think everybody needs to hug a puppy or something, because everybody is way too fucking serious.


:( Fake Pat drowned my puppies.


I'm also struck by how many people in this thread equate opposition to this with weakness (i.e. "we should just talk it out so they'll stop").

No one doubts we're facing an uncivilized and brutal enemy. But if their attacks causes us to compromise our own ideals and become more like them, then those attacks were pretty fucking successful, I'd say. That's real weakness right there.

We should totally build amoral robots and then unleash them on the terrorists. That way we would be ok and not guilty!

[Wigner's Friend]

Yeah, yeah. As long as you use my name with the word "best" and not in conjunction with "blow-job provider" or "pedophile," I'm OK with it.

Better than chickenhawk advocacy, which was the whole point, Mr. Fancy Latinpants.

Defending chickenhawkedness with goofy talk is my ad hominem.

[Fake Pat]

:( Fake Pat drowned my puppies.


...am I god?

:scared:

[Ryan Elliott]

:( Fake Pat drowned my puppies.



We should totally build amoral robots and then unleash them on the terrorists. That way we would be ok and not guilty!


http://thevoidcomedy.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/bender.jpg

[thatguyfromsyracuse]

OK, fuck it: a few days ago, Nick was begging me to waterboard him, so don't let him fool you into thinking he's against it.

[Ryan Elliott]

OK, fuck it: a few days ago, Nick was begging me to waterboard him, so don't let him fool you into thinking he's against it.


Everybody has their kinks.

[Kingsumo]

We should totally build amoral robots


Fix'd

[Andreas]

:lol: Finally. You're here.


What's the "trifecta" word for four people or things?

Gang of Four?

[Kingsumo]

...am I god?

:scared:

There would be a certainly beautiful irony to that.

[Magnum V.I.]

...am I god?

:scared:

Exactly! Which is why you never believe in yourself :( Poor Fake Pat.


http://thevoidcomedy.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/bender.jpg

YES!


OK, fuck it: a few days ago, Nick was begging me to waterboard him, so don't let him fool you into thinking he's against it.

I think you mean "teabagging" which is just as bad. Some might say even worse.


Fix'd


:rock:

[Brother Power the Gong]

Ille est pugnantes verbos.
OK, either fuck you or thanks. I'm not sure which.

:(



Defending chickenhawkedness with goofy talk is my ad hominem.
OK, either fuck you or thanks. I'm not sure which.

:)


...am I god?

:scared:
But you don't believe in God. So who is Fake Pat?

[SgtPepper]

Everybody has their kinks.

Joe has them in his signature.

[Ryan Elliott]

YES!


I am for the USA building an Army of Benders to fight terrorists.

[Prime]

:lol: Finally. You're here.


What's the "trifecta" word for four people or things?

I vote for "Quadrista"

[Ryan Elliott]

Joe has them in his signature.


Hawt.

[Magnum V.I.]

I am for the USA building an Army of Benders to fight terrorists.

Fuck it. I'm for the USA to build Benders for everyone!

[SgtPepper]

OK, either fuck you or thanks. I'm not sure which.

:(



OK, either fuck you or thanks. I'm not sure which.

:)


But you don't believe in God. So who is Fake Pat?

That's Latin for Those are fighting words. I probably constructed it incorrectly, I'm rusty. I took it for five years. :)

[Nick Spencer]

OK, fuck it: a few days ago, Nick was begging me to waterboard him, so don't let him fool you into thinking he's against it.

The safety word is douchebag!

[Ryan Elliott]

I vote for "Quadrista"


Sold!

[thatguyfromsyracuse]

I vote for "Quadrista"

I was going to say "foursies."

[Ryan Elliott]

Fuck it. I'm for the USA to build Benders for everyone!


I'd LOVE my very own Bender! Holy shit!


NASA! Get your asses on this!

[DaveCummings]

Guys, please, can't we all just agree that Captain Obvious is annoying and move on?

heh, that was my only contribution to the discussion. Because that's about as far as I'd like to get into the mess of a discussion that is this thread.

[Brother Power the Gong]

That's Latin for Those are fighting words. I probably constructed it incorrectly, I'm rusty. I took it for five years. :)
I thought it was something like that, but all I can speak is English and pigeon Spanish.

The safety word is douchebag!
Mine's "mmmmmmrrrrpph!"

[Ryan Elliott]

I thought it was something like that, but all I can speak is English and pigeon Spanish.

Mine's "mmmmmmrrrrpph!"


You should have told me before hand dammit! I didn't know! :mad:

[Brother Power the Gong]

You should have told me before hand dammit! I didn't know! :mad:

It's OK. I developed gills.

Real American gills.

[DaveCummings]

I'd LOVE my very own Bender! Holy shit!


NASA! Get your asses on this!


Hell yeah. I'd love my own drunk robot to do my dirty work.

[Ray G.]

I'm not comfortable with my conduct in this thread. There's a viciousness there that I don't like.

I don't like sharing personal things on the board, but I've been going through some incredibly hard stuff the last few days. As I don't trust myself not to make an ass of myself on the board, nor to refrain from lashing out at some rude people, I'm taking a break.

That's all I wanted to say. I apologize for giving off a bad impression here. I think most of you have known me long enough to know I'm not some kind of bloodthirsty sicko. We may disagree on the issue, but that's not how I want to be known. Until I'm in a better place mentally, it's not a good idea for me to engage in this kind of thing.

[Ryan Elliott]

It's OK. I developed gills.

Real American gills.

http://www.paulmudie.com/images/innsmouthlook.jpg


Hell yeah. I'd love my own drunk robot to do my dirty work.


I'd want him just to have wacky adventures and pal around with.

[Brother Power the Gong]

http://www.paulmudie.com/images/innsmouthlook.jpg

Add glasses and a beard, and you got it.

[Khrutch]

:lol: Finally. You're here.


What's the "trifecta" word for four people or things?

You were waiting for me, awww...thanks dude.

;)



All their terrorist gatherings took place on Friday night. You have any idea what that does to someone's social life?

Hasn't he suffered enough!

Where are these meetings?

*loads gun*


I think we're the ones who suffer the consequences of abandoning ideals that served us well for centuries. If we could refrain from torture against The Nazis, I'm pretty certain we could've maintained our dignity in the face of these assholes.

Perhaps, but I think this enemy is far different than the Nazi's and has to be dealt with on a different basis. They talk of peace, but would kill us all in a moment if given the chance and I think we just can't give them the benefit of the doubt. America is bad about thinking that we are untouchable and Pearl Harbor happened, we got to that place again and 9/11 happened and unfortunatly it will probably happen again I hate to say. I'm more in favor of a pre-emptive strike on our enemies and this enemy is not as easy to find thus I think it requires different methods to ascertain who they are and to deal with them. I know we may not agree on this, but we're just going to have to agree to disagree I think.

:)

[Fake Pat]

Perhaps, but I think this enemy is far different than the Nazi's and has to be dealt with on a different basis. They talk of peace, but would kill us all in a moment if given the chance and I think we just can't give them the benefit of the doubt. America is bad about thinking that we are untouchable and Pearl Harbor happened, we got to that place again and 9/11 happened and unfortunatly it will probably happen again I hate to say. I'm more in favor of a pre-emptive strike on our enemies and this enemy is not as easy to find thus I think it requires different methods to asertain who they are and to deal with them. I know we may not agree on this, but we're just going to have to agree to disagree I think.

:)

Torture still doesn't work.

Sorry.

[DaveCummings]

http://www.paulmudie.com/images/innsmouthlook.jpg




I'd want him just to have wacky adventures and pal around with.

Oh yeah, that too. But, having a robot would be great if I developed an evil streak.

[Joe Kalicki]

Where are these meetings?

*loads gun*


I think they usually meet at Jack in the Box.

[SgtPepper]

http://www.paulmudie.com/images/innsmouthlook.jpg




I'd want him just to have wacky adventures and pal around with.

That looks like Steve Buscemi with severe radiation poisoning.

[Joe Kalicki]

Perhaps, but I think this enemy is far different than the Nazi's and has to be dealt with on a different basis. They talk of peace, but would kill us all in a moment if given the chance and I think we just can't give them the benefit of the doubt. America is bad about thinking that we are untouchable and Pearl Harbor happened, we got to that place again and 9/11 happened and unfortunatly it will probably happen again I hate to say. I'm more in favor of a pre-emptive strike on our enemies and this enemy is not as easy to find thus I think it requires different methods to ascertain who they are and to deal with them. I know we may not agree on this, but we're just going to have to agree to disagree I think.

:)

I don't know, would you rather fight every 60 years, or permanently disregard the very values that make us a target for those attacks?

[SgtPepper]

I think they usually meet at Jack in the Box.

So Jack was serious when he said "Do something about it."

[Jason California]

I think we're the ones who suffer the consequences of abandoning ideals that served us well for centuries. If we could refrain from torture against The Nazis, I'm pretty certain we could've maintained our dignity in the face of these assholes.


but you are willing to let the perpetrators go free.

[Fake Pat]

but you are willing to let the perpetrators go free.

What?

[Jason California]

What?


what what Pat?

[SgtPepper]

What?

I believe Jason wanted clarification on Nick's views on letting the CIA members responsible for the waterboarding go unprosecuted.

[the loner]

what what Pat?

In the but?

:surrend:

Edit: I can't get that song out of my head.

[Nick Spencer]

but you are willing to let the perpetrators go free.

Jason, I don't think you're fully grasping what 'not guilty' verdicts in those cases (which are basically inevitable) would do.

And at this point, I see a lot more virtue in stopping than in punishing people who did it.

[Foolish Mortal]

I believe Jason wanted clarification on Nick's views on letting the CIA members responsible for the waterboarding go unprosecuted.
If we can't prosecute the weasel lawyers who used loopholes in the laws to allow these people to be tortured, and we can't prosecute the people who gave the orders, then the people who actually perpetrated it should not be prosecuted.

It's all or nothing for me.

[Nick Spencer]

If we can't prosecute the weasel lawyers who used loopholes in the laws to allow these people to be tortured, and we can't prosecute the people who gave the orders, then the people who actually perpetrated it should not be prosecuted.

It's all or nothing for me.

Right. The Vice President of The United States is not gonna get convicted, so I have no desire to go after the CIA Agent who followed those orders.

[Xander Boune]

We can at least prosecute the lawyers who drafted the memos to provide a legal justification for the torture, and Obama opened the doors to that with his comments today if Holder has the balls to go through with it.

[Nick Spencer]

We can at least prosecute the lawyers who drafted the memos to provide a legal justification for the torture, and Obama opened the doors to that with his comments today if Holder has the balls to go through with it.

They kinda backed off that right away. This administration is not interested in pursuing this. Personally, I'm glad.

[Xander Boune]

They kinda backed off that right away. This administration is not interested in pursuing this. Personally, I'm glad.

I'm all for the greater good, and I realize that a commission or special prosecutor would be a huge, polarizing distraction from Obama's agenda, but letting this go is not right. I don't want to be Rorschach at the end of Watchmen, but people like Woo getting away with this makes me sick.

[Ben]

In a free society, you sacrifice some safety for freedom. How come all the "Freedom isn't free!" war-mongers don't get that?

[Jason California]

Jason, I don't think you're fully grasping what 'not guilty' verdicts in those cases (which are basically inevitable) would do.

And at this point, I see a lot more virtue in stopping than in punishing people who did it.

I think I do, but maybe not. I think that left alone it is going to fester and do more damage in the long run. I think if followed it will lead to members of congress as well as the Bush admin. I think that a big reason this is not followed up on is because of where it will lead.

Oh and Obama may in fact be doing something on this.

[Joe Kalicki]

In a free society, you sacrifice some safety for freedom. How come all the "Freedom isn't free!" war-mongers don't get that?

Because no one wrote a country song about it yet.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Was Waterboarded 183 Times in One Month (http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/18/khalid-sheikh-mohammed-was-waterboarded-183-times-in-one-month/)

Two things:

1. It never works the first 182 times, or just with Sheikh?
2. It can't be "torture" if it can be done to you 182 times in one month. In fact, it must be fun.

[Ben]

Two things:

1. It never works the first 182 times, or just with Sheikh?
2. It can't be "torture" if it can be done to you 182 times in one month. In fact, it must be fun.Spoken like a true non-commuter.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

My favorite bit of torture uncovered by Barack is the "threat of stinging insects." Combined with "waterboarding", it sounds like my childhood summers in the back yard with a Slip N Slide.

[Pick The System!]

My favorite bit of torture uncovered by Barack is the "threat of stinging insects." Combined with "waterboarding", it sounds like my childhood summers in the back yard with a Slip N Slide.

I know this is a serious thread, but this really made me laugh hard.

[Thomas Mauer]

UUhhh...we are talking about pouring water down someone's nose to simulate drowning, right?

This guy planned flying planes into various buildings.

Okay, for the sake of argument, lets stop. Now what? One of you come up with one viable solution to intelligence gathering.

Seriously, I am sure if we sign a treaty with them they will stop. I mean Chamberlain had a treaty with Hitler and that worked.

Whoops, close the thread. Someone invoked Godwin's law...and lost the argument.

[SgtPepper]

My favorite bit of torture uncovered by Barack is the "threat of stinging insects." Combined with "waterboarding", it sounds like my childhood summers in the back yard with a Slip N Slide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PQH741svy4

[Ethan Van Sciver]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PQH741svy4

Who wouldn't do that 182 times?

[SgtPepper]

Who wouldn't do that 182 times?

Herpetophobes?

[Wigner's Friend]

My favorite bit of torture uncovered by Barack is the "threat of stinging insects." Combined with "waterboarding", it sounds like my childhood summers in the back yard with a Slip N Slide.

Nice. We were always to lazy to clear the rocks out.

[Jason California]

Whoops, close the thread. Someone invoked Godwin's law...and lost the argument.


I thought he had to compare someone here to Hitler for it to be Goodwins Law.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

Herpetophobes?

And we know Khalid was not one of those. Fuck 'em. Torture them all more with these evil techniques uncovered by the Barack admin. How much did the feathers we tickled their feet with cost us taxpayers?

Besides having to listen to liberals drone on and on about it?

[Magnum V.I.]

My favorite bit of torture uncovered by Barack is the "threat of stinging insects." Combined with "waterboarding", it sounds like my childhood summers in the back yard with a Slip N Slide.

Fuck! You just solved our missing bee problem my friend.

Ethan Van Sciver. American Hero!

You saved Ben's thesis project!!

[Ethan Van Sciver]

Nice. We were always to lazy to clear the rocks out.

I grew up in Jersey, so for us it was broken glass. I didn't confess to terrorist plans either.

[SgtPepper]

Fuck! You just solved our missing bee problem my friend.

Ethan Van Sciver. American Hero!

You saved Ben's thesis project!!

I thought it was due to this.

http://i40.tinypic.com/ibj611.jpg

[Ethan Van Sciver]

I'm here to help.

[Jason California]

If we can't prosecute the weasel lawyers who used loopholes in the laws to allow these people to be tortured, and we can't prosecute the people who gave the orders, then the people who actually perpetrated it should not be prosecuted.

It's all or nothing for me.


I don't want the grunts prosecuted in lieu of those that devised and approved of this.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

Just found out we tortured detainees by "slamming them up against the wall".

So cops out there....no more of that. It's torture.

[Jason California]

Just found out we tortured detainees by "slamming them up against the wall".

So cops out there....no more of that. It's torture.


I have seen cops do it and it is fucked up.

[SgtPepper]

Just found out we tortured detainees by "slamming them up against the wall".

So cops out there....no more of that. It's torture.

I suppose it depends on how it was done, if it was done to inflict serious injuries it could be construed as torture. But it strikes me as a small thing to fret about.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

I have seen cops do it and it is fucked up.

Oh fuck that. I'm looking at specifics of what this "torture" entails, and it's "forced nudity", sleep deprivation, face slapping...I want to know under what circumstances by who and to whom. This is the biggest load of politicized shit I've ever seen.

No wonder Obama doesn't want to make a bigger deal out of it.

[Jason California]

Oh fuck that. I'm looking at specifics of what this "torture" entails, and it's "forced nudity", sleep deprivation, face slapping...I want to know under what circumstances by who and to whom. This is the biggest load of politicized shit I've ever seen.

No wonder Obama doesn't want to make a bigger deal out of it.

:: In "walling," the interrogator would pull a detainee toward him, then slam him against a "flexible false wall" in a technique designed to create a loud sound and shock the prisoner.
A detainee may be walled once to make a point or 20 to 30 times when interrogation requires "a more significant response to a question."


It was just to shock the detainee? A loud sound is supposed to make a trained terrorist give up info?