Wildfire Arsonist convicted, death penalty recommended

[afroloq]

RIVERSIDE, Calif. – A jury recommended the death penalty Wednesday for a man convicted of murdering five federal firefighters who were overrun by one of several wildfires he ignited in Southern California in 2006. Jurors took less than a day to decide that Raymond Lee Oyler deserved to die. Prosecutors cited the horrific pain the fire crew suffered and the terror the auto mechanic's fires caused in rural areas of Riverside County.
Outside court, Maria Loutzenhiser, the wife of slain fire Capt. Mark Loutzenhiser, thanked jurors and prosecutors "for putting an end to everybody's misery and giving everybody peace of mind."
"I'm grateful they put Oyler in jail and that he's there and he can't do this anymore," she said.
Oyler's daughter echoed his lawyers' claim that he never intended to kill anyone.
"That was not in his mind. My dad is not this monster they paint him to be," 21-year-old Heather Oyler said outside the courtroom.
Oyler, 38, was convicted of five counts of first-degree murder, 20 counts of arson and 17 counts of using an incendiary device. At sentencing, set for June 5, the judge still could give him the punishment the defense had urged jurors to choose: life in prison without the possibility of parole.
The jury foreman, who declined to give his name, said the two-month trial was an emotional ordeal but the evidence showed Oyler's guilt and helped persuade the panel he should get the death penalty.

link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090319/ap_on_re_us/arson_firefighters_killed;_ylt=AqUhU9cp2vUjkbzjq1V YGY1vzwcF)

[Ray G.]

I don't know, I'm not sure this fits the standard of first-degree murder.

Fucker deserves to die, but I'd be shocked if this holds up.

[half guard]

The daughter claims he didn't intend to kill anyone? What was his motivation for starting the fires then? What did he think would be the outcome of recklessly starting a bunch of fires like that?

[Generic Poster]

I don't know, I'm not sure this fits the standard of first-degree murder.

Fucker deserves to die, but I'd be shocked if this holds up.

You think he could reasonably think he could start a gigantic wildfire in California without someone getting killed?

[Doug]

The daughter claims he didn't intend to kill anyone? What was his motivation for starting the fires then? What did he think would be the outcome of recklessly starting a bunch of fires like that?

Some arsonists are just plane crazy, and just like to see the fire. He might not have thought that far ahead.

[Ray G.]

You think he could reasonably think he could start a gigantic wildfire in California without someone getting killed?

No, but doesn't first degree murder require premeditated intent to kill?

I've seen cases get thrown out on a lot sketchier grounds. I'm a bit surprised they went for death in the first place.

[Generic Poster]

Some arsonists are just plane crazy, and just like to see the fire. He might not have thought that far ahead.

He didn't plead insanity. And the standard for a sane person isn't whether that particular person "thought ahead" - it's whether a reasonable person would think ahead.

[Generic Poster]

No, but doesn't first degree murder require premeditated intent to kill?

I've seen cases get thrown out on a lot sketchier grounds. I'm a bit surprised they went for death in the first place.

No - it requires that the action that leads to the death be intentional and premeditated, and be one that a reasonable person knows would be likely to lead to someone's death.

[Doug]

He didn't plead insanity. And the standard for a sane person isn't whether that particular person "thought ahead" - it's whether a reasonable person would think ahead.

Okay. I don't really know anything about the case, and may have just seen Backdraft too many times.

[afroloq]

He didn't plead insanity. And the standard for a sane person isn't whether that particular person "thought ahead" - it's whether a reasonable person would think ahead.

He shoulda plead stupidity

[xyzzy]

No, but doesn't first degree murder require premeditated intent to kill?

I've seen cases get thrown out on a lot sketchier grounds. I'm a bit surprised they went for death in the first place.

Can you give an example of a better case getting thrown out on sketchy grounds? Sorry, but I kind of think you're talking out of your ass.

[TheTravis!]

Ungh. Torn between liberal rejection of death penalty and complete uselessness of this person.

[afroloq]

I don't know, I'm not sure this fits the standard of first-degree murder.

Fucker deserves to die, but I'd be shocked if this holds up.

First degree murder is defined by 2 ways and in this case a combo:

1. An intentional killing involving a willful deliberate and premeditated action

- setting the fire

2. Special circumstances involving law enforcement or any kind of public official

- the firemen who were killed trying to put out the fire.


Best bet is to see what Cali's penal code is for arson and deaths that come out of it.

[Generic Poster]

First degree murder is defined by 2 ways and in this case a combo:

1. An intentional killing involving a willful deliberate and premeditated action

- setting the fire

2. Special circumstances involving law enforcement or any kind of public official

- the firemen who were killed trying to put out the fire.


Best bet is to see what Cali's penal code is for arson and deaths that come out of it.

Felony murder (case 2) is usually second degree, I think. That applies when a cop dies indirectly has a result of a felony. For example, I rob a store and drive off - cop dies in a car accident chasing me. That what you're thinking of? I guess whether it's 1st or 2nd can vary by state.

[Sackhead]

Not trying to demean the abhorrent behavior of this guy, but last I heard the five firefighters were told specifically NOT to drive to this area of the fire. So although this guy is definitely guilty of starting the fire, the unfortunate victims sealed their own fate.

Regardless, this guy should get life imprisonment in my opinion.

[Ben]

The daughter claims he didn't intend to kill anyone? What was his motivation for starting the fires then? What did he think would be the outcome of recklessly starting a bunch of fires like that?Maybe he just wanted to encourage the natural fire ecology of the region.

[Mister Mets]

No, but doesn't first degree murder require premeditated intent to kill?

I've seen cases get thrown out on a lot sketchier grounds. I'm a bit surprised they went for death in the first place.
They mention in the article "Prosecutor Michael Hestrin told jurors in closing arguments of the trial's penalty phase that Oyler was not a casual arsonist but instead sought the power to end people's lives."

If the prosecutor successfully made that case, the fucker deserves to die.

[Thomas Mauer]

I don't know, I'm not sure this fits the standard of first-degree murder.

Fucker deserves to die, but I'd be shocked if this holds up.

While doing research on legal executions in North Carolina from the 1880s to 1940s, I read many newspaper accounts that arsonists got the death penalty.

[Ben]

While doing research on legal executions in North Carolina from the 1880s to 1940s, I read many newspaper accounts that arsonists got the death penalty.In Germany? They ended up with some pretty fucked up death penalty standards towards the end of that time period.

[Thomas Mauer]

In Germany? They ended up with some pretty fucked up death penalty standards towards the end of that time period.

To put it into perspective, I was working on a paper about the carnival-like aspects of lynchings and witnessing of legal executions in NC during the early 20th century.

[Ben]

To put it into perspective, I was working on a paper about the carnival-like aspects of lynchings and witnessing of legal executions in NC during the early 20th century.Toby Keith and Willy Nelson would like a return to those times. They also want horses to drink more beer.

[Thomas Mauer]

Toby Keith and Willy Nelson would like a return to those times. They also want horses to drink more beer.

I thought Willy Nelson likes to smoke up, not set the house on fire!

[Ben]

I thought Willy Nelson likes to smoke up, not set the house on fire!Toby Keith corrupted him.

[Ray G.]

Thanks for the info. I've never seen an arsonist get the death sentence in modern times, so I was a bit surprised.

Regardless, if he actually gets executed, he won't be missed.

[Jason California]

Thanks for the info. I've never seen an arsonist get the death sentence in modern times, so I was a bit surprised.

Regardless, if he actually gets executed, he won't be missed.

I bet you his mom and daughter will.

[Generic Poster]

Toby Keith and Willy Nelson would like a return to those times. They also want horses to drink more beer.

Willie Nelson is very anti-death penalty.

[Kingsumo]

Huh. I would have thought that would have been more manslaughter in this instance. Which is, I believe, what Ray was originally talking about.

Sad case all around, but obviously the jury felt that he deserved it. And given the nature of what he did, I cannot say that I blame them.

[Ray G.]

Huh. I would have thought that would have been more manslaughter in this instance. Which is, I believe, what Ray was originally talking about.

Sad case all around, but obviously the jury felt that he deserved it. And given the nature of what he did, I cannot say that I blame them.

Yeah, that's what most cases like this are usually billed as. The Seton Hall dorm fire, for instance.

Although now that I think about it, I did read about another dorm fire in the south where the person who started it pled guilty and got life in prison to avoid the death penalty.

[Kingsumo]

Yeah, that's what most cases like this are usually billed as. The Seton Hall dorm fire, for instance.

Although now that I think about it, I did read about another dorm fire in the south where the person who started it pled guilty and got life in prison to avoid the death penalty.

I guess it all comes down to intent and how much thought went into it.

If this dude didn't go the insanity route, and they could prove that he was being not only a serial arsonist, but one with malicious intent, then it is safe to say, he knew damn well people would die.

[Thomas Mauer]

Thanks for the info. I've never seen an arsonist get the death sentence in modern times, so I was a bit surprised.

Regardless, if he actually gets executed, he won't be missed.

Yeah, when I first read it, it surprised me as well. I think it may differ from state to state, and it probably has to do with why and when state laws about how to punish arsonists were created in the first place. Didn't research it further since I would have gone off on a tangent that couldn't possibly become relevant.

[Ben]

Willie Nelson is very anti-death penalty.Then explain the song! It's about hangin'!