Wolverine #70 Old Man Logan spoilers

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

So we know what happened with Wolverine now and why he doesn't fight anymore.

Well? Thoughts?

I think that was one of the more graphic standard issues I've ever seen. It said parental advisory, but man. Very clever though and your stomach really does drop once you see what has actually happened. One minute you're all like "yeah, eat that Bullseye" and the next its :sad:.

Anyways, I love the X-men but that issue reminds me of two things

a) The X-men are not every good at what they do. Compared to the Avengers or other teams, the X-men are simply not very good. I love the X-men as much as the next guy, but think about it. If it was the Avengers or the FF's job to check people like Apocalypse then that guy would not see the light of day let alone get his own Age. All that Danger Room training and there are still so many ways to get these guys. Really think about the X-men (whatever team you want) holding the line alone against Kang or Thanos or Ultron even. Can they do it?

b) This is the important one though. There is not a lot that prevents Wolverine from unexpectedly assassinating everyone from moment to moment. Its a struggle for him not to and probably is his greatest fear. The threat of what happened in Wolverine #70 is real and ever-present. This is just the first time its really been illustrated. Someone plays some song only Wolverine can hear or burns a certain candle and he's just killed everyone. Never forget that Wolverine fans. I think I almost have a new understanding of the character now because of this issue. He wants to be around people, but he knows on some level that he could turn on everyone and not really have a choice about it. That's a huge burden.

And once again, I applaud Marvel's willingness to swap villains within their shared universe. Those have been some of the most interesting stories. Spider-man versus Juggernaut, Mysterio versus Daredevil, Annihilus versus everyone other than the FF. It goes back to NA Breakout where Cage had to hold off Carnage and he commented about how this was one of Spider-man's villains and he was having a really hard time.

Those are my main thoughts. I currently have no thoughts on the Venom dinosaur.

[Kefky]

Something like that could never happen in real continuity.

That said, though, it was done pretty well, and I enjoyed it.

[Gregory]

Something like that could never happen in real continuity.

I'm biting my tongue here with recent Marvel events.

[Jason California]

The X-Men could beat the Avenegers.

[Kefky]

I'm biting my tongue here with recent Marvel events.

It doesn't matter.

Wolverine isn't the fucking Sentry. No matter how out of control he was, he wouldn't kill be able to kill all the x-men just because "they were holding back". It's dumb.

[Shwicaz]

It doesn't matter.

Wolverine isn't the fucking Sentry. No matter how out of control he was, he wouldn't kill be able to kill all the x-men just because "they were holding back". It's dumb.


Well, when you think about it, how many times did the X-Men 'hold back' when Jean was going all Dark Pheonix.

How many times did the X-Men 'hold back' during the Inferno saga' when they knew they had to take out Maddy Pryor.

The X-Men always want to 'save you from yourself', and they end up letting their guard down, especially when it comes to one of their own.

[Shwicaz]

also...how many times have they tried to 'hold back' on Proff. X when he was taken over by someone (AGAIN) i.e. onslught, cassandra nova, etc.

The X-Men have a storied history of 'holding back'

[Ryudo]

Emma would've figured out some way to stop Mysterio.

But the issue was good.

[Artie Pink]

It was pretty shock-value-for-the-sake-of-shock-value.

[Kefky]

Well, when you think about it, how many times did the X-Men 'hold back' when Jean was going all Dark Pheonix.

How many times did the X-Men 'hold back' during the Inferno saga' when they knew they had to take out Maddy Pryor.

The X-Men always want to 'save you from yourself', and they end up letting their guard down, especially when it comes to one of their own.

Dark Phoenix and Madeline Pryor in Inferno were way stronger than Wolvie could ever hoped to be, and they didn't kill all the x-men as quickly as he did here.

I'm just saying, they would've stopped him somehow. It's silly to believe they wouldn't.

[Kefky]

also...how many times have they tried to 'hold back' on Proff. X when he was taken over by someone (AGAIN) i.e. onslught, cassandra nova, etc.

The X-Men have a storied history of 'holding back'

I didn't say they wouldn't hold back. :)

[Shwicaz]

It was pretty shock-value-for-the-sake-of-shock-value.


well, duh. He wanted to have a shock to the reader, so he wrote something that would shock and surprise.

how else do you do it?

[Shwicaz]

I didn't say they wouldn't hold back. :)

oops, sorry. that's what I get for 'skimming' at work.


:Oops:

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

It doesn't matter.

Wolverine isn't the fucking Sentry. No matter how out of control he was, he wouldn't kill be able to kill all the x-men just because "they were holding back". It's dumb.

I don't think they were holding back at all. I think that all it takes is for them to see their own man Wolverine step on Psylocke's neck or cut Cyclops' forehead off and not one of them gets it together in time to do anything. I don't think they've ever trained for it. An exterior attack is an entirely different story.

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

Emma would've figured out some way to stop Mysterio.

But the issue was good.

Emma isn't a machine though so I don't think she could have done anything. Mysterio got to Wolverine through his senses through exterior means and the rest Wolverine did all by himself. And again, I don't think that Emma would have been able to maintain composure long enough to figure out what caused Wolverine's attack and to stop him herself. She's a cure-all, but she's not that good. Xavier wouldn't have done any better in that same situation.

[leafinsectman]

I kinda like how Millar always shows Wolvie as this big menace to everyone around him because that's what he really is no matter what his intentions are. He's a weapon.

I don't think he'd have been able to take out the entire X-Men team like that unless Mysterio or someone else already did something to the rest of the team. He might have killed some of them but not all.

That said, I can look past that and appreciate the story for what it is. Another great issue by that amazing bastard Millar and McNiven is magnificent as always.

[Kefky]

I don't think they were holding back at all.

But it's even stated in the book that they couldn't stop him because they were holding back... :mistrust:


I think that all it takes is for them to see their own man Wolverine step on Psylocke's neck or cut Cyclops' forehead off and not one of them gets it together in time to do anything. I don't think they've ever trained for it. An exterior attack is an entirely different story.

I don't get it. There isn't any other team in the marvel universe that's dealt with fucked up people in their team then the x-men, and you don't think they could've somehow stopped Wolverine?

I mean, Bucky stopped berserker rage Wolverine all by himself, and he doesn't even have powers.

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

It was pretty shock-value-for-the-sake-of-shock-value.

Wolverine cutting through all the Marvel villains was shock-value-for-sake-of-shock-value (why did I just type that the same way you did?). But the reveal of what was actually going on was something different and clever. But the standard garden variety shock value was not that part, it was the initial battle to the finish with the bad guys.

[Gregory]

How similar was this battle to Cyclops taking on all the X-Men when Mastermind fooled them into thinking Cyke was Dark Phoenix? This was YEARS ago in Uncanny 176(?), and Cyke took out Wolverine by slamming his head into the floor with his eye beams.

[Shwicaz]

How similar was this battle to Cyclops taking on all the X-Men when mastermind fooled them into thinking Cyke was Dark Phoenix? This was YEARS ago in Uncanny 176(?), and Cyke took out Wolverine by slamming his head into the floor with his eye beams.


Ooh, I have that tpb.

[TheTravis!]

How similar was this battle to Cyclops taking on all the X-Men when Mastermind fooled them into thinking Cyke was Dark Phoenix? This was YEARS ago in Uncanny 176(?), and Cyke took out Wolverine by slamming his head into the floor with his eye beams.

Probably my single favorite X-Men comic ever.

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

But it's even stated in the book that they couldn't stop him because they were holding back... :mistrust:



I don't get it. There isn't any other team in the marvel universe that's dealt with fucked up people in their team then the x-men, and you don't think they could've somehow stopped Wolverine?

I mean, Bucky stopped berserker rage Wolverine all by himself, and he doesn't even have powers.

I guess maybe I thought that was Wolverine making himself feel worse by thinking that even at that point they were holding back. I think that the entire battle is subjective. It either went down like it looked, just insert X-men in place of each villain. Or maybe we just saw what Wolverine saw and something else happened. End result is the same though. In this story, Wolverine thought he was defending his family and students against a massacre so he tackled the problem as quickly and as he could with finality. So I don't even know if it was the usual berserker barrage or not. Unfortunately, he was tricked.

The root of what I was saying though is that this is Wolverine's burden to carry. He chooses to be around other people and be someone they can trust, knowing full well that he could be brainwashed, tricked, or otherwise activated into using his abilities against those he cares about. By choice or perhaps not. Do the X-men really understand that danger? I don't think so. I know the Avengers don't.

[Gregory]

Ooh, I have that tpb.

He beats Rogue with dust. She's allergic. Her one weakness. Never mentioned again.

[John M. Coker (Johnny C.)]

Dude, Wolverine has been portrayed as an unstoppable god for years now, hell, at this point he's even immortal.

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

Probably my single favorite X-Men comic ever.

What do you think? If Wolverine is all of a sudden like "get behind me! This is it, they're coming for us! You guys gotta get through me first, rraaaarr!" how quickly do the X-men get it together and stop him?

I just don't think that the X-men have a plan for that scenario other than "Hey what's all the noise out here..urk!" "Hey what are you doing to Cannonb-aarrgh!"

Like I said we only saw Wolverine's point of view and likely the fight only took minutes. And some of them might have been trying to run instead of fighting back like it appeared the villains were.

I can't believe I have this much to say about an issue of Wolverine....

[Shwicaz]

I have to say, that as awesome as the battle (and the reveal) was, the part of the issue that REALLY hit me, was Wolverine putting his head on that train track for a beheading, knowing it wouldn't kill him....but (as he put it in the book, and I am not remembering the quote right, so I will paraphrase) he said that he knew he wouldn't die, but it would hurt, and that helped.

That little exchange spoke volumes. It showed a man who was aware of just how much of a beast he was....

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

I have to say, that as awesome as the battle (and the reveal) was, the part of the issue that REALLY hit me, was Wolverine putting his head on that train track for a beheading, knowing it wouldn't kill him....but (as he put it in the book, and I am not remembering the quote right, so I will paraphrase) he said that he knew he wouldn't die, but it would hurt, and that helped.

That little exchange spoke volumes. It showed a man who was aware of just how much of a beast he was....
That would have been extremely painful. Being dragged for who knows how long until the train stopped or derailed. Or the track warped.

[Kefky]

Dude, Wolverine has been portrayed as an unstoppable god for years now, hell, at this point he's even immortal.

That's pretty much the type of thing people hate about the character. Jason Aaron's even been trying to take it away from him as much as possible whenever he writes him.

[leafinsectman]

I have to say, that as awesome as the battle (and the reveal) was, the part of the issue that REALLY hit me, was Wolverine putting his head on that train track for a beheading, knowing it wouldn't kill him....but (as he put it in the book, and I am not remembering the quote right, so I will paraphrase) he said that he knew he wouldn't die, but it would hurt, and that helped.

That little exchange spoke volumes. It showed a man who was aware of just how much of a beast he was....

That's what I love about it. Even if the reasoning behind the massacre was absolutely ridiculous I'd still have loved this issue just for that. Bonus points to Millar for stirring up emotions in me while reading a comic book, something that doesn't happen often enough.

[John M. Coker (Johnny C.)]

That's pretty much the type of thing people hate about the character. Jason Aaron's even been trying to take it away from him as much as possible whenever he writes him.

Exactly, but what I'm saying is, it's nothing new, it's been established. So yes, it is possible that Wolverine can take out the entire X-Men. Is it dumb? Maybe, but it's silly for people to bitch that it could never happen, when it's been established that it could.

[TheTravis!]

What do you think? If Wolverine is all of a sudden like "get behind me! This is it, they're coming for us! You guys gotta get through me first, rraaaarr!" how quickly do the X-men get it together and stop him?

I just don't think that the X-men have a plan for that scenario other than "Hey what's all the noise out here..urk!" "Hey what are you doing to Cannonb-aarrgh!"

Like I said we only saw Wolverine's point of view and likely the fight only took minutes. And some of them might have been trying to run instead of fighting back like it appeared the villains were.

I can't believe I have this much to say about an issue of Wolverine....

Well, I haven't read the issue, so I'm probably talking out of my ass a little. But I think, with the element of surprise, and no time to react, Wolverine could easily kill all of the X-Men.

[Jef UK]

It was really satisfying to watch Wolvie stab all those villains in the hearts and necks. And I was totally suckered into the switcheroo. I really dug that Mysterio was responsible too.

As to the X-Men not being better than the Avengers or Fantastic Four, I think you are reaching and using selective memory, Lord Jermaine. :) That is, every team's big villains allways come back and the Fantastic Four and Avengers have both had plenty of alternate realities that they've had to prevent after the fact--i.e., after they "lost" the first time.

[Shwicaz]

I really dug that Mysterio was responsible too.



I haven't been this happy since Daredevil #7 by Smith/Quesada.

[Kefky]

Exactly, but what I'm saying is, it's nothing new, it's been established. So yes, it is possible that Wolverine can take out the entire X-Men. Is it dumb? Maybe, but it's silly for people to bitch that it could never happen, when it's been established that it could.

Eh, I wasn't really bitching about it, just commenting on it. I liked the issue.

[Gregory]

That is, every team's big villains allways come back and the Fantastic Four and Avengers have both had plenty of alternate realities that they've had to prevent after the fact--i.e., after they "lost" the first time.

Speaking of alternate realities, Ellis just killed Wolverine in a spin-off X-men comic.

His adamantium-laced leg is twisted out of shape by a Sentinel, and Armor sets him on fire.

[Jef UK]

Speaking of alternate realities, Ellis just killed Wolverine in a spin-off X-men comic.

His adamantium-laced leg is twisted out of shape by a Sentinel, and Armor sets him on fire.

That's true. Although the fire took 8 hours or something to consume him. But yeah, train to the neck would likely do the trick.

[RegularJoe]

so, what did happen? i saw the preview, but not sure what the ultimate reveal was.

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

It was really satisfying to watch Wolvie stab all those villains in the hearts and necks. And I was totally suckered into the switcheroo. I really dug that Mysterio was responsible too.

As to the X-Men not being better than the Avengers or Fantastic Four, I think you are reaching and using selective memory, Lord Jermaine. :) That is, every team's big villains allways come back and the Fantastic Four and Avengers have both had plenty of alternate realities that they've had to prevent after the fact--i.e., after they "lost" the first time.
In the Spider-man context Mysterio is very forgettable. But in other contexts (such as him picking on DD when he felt like he needed a win) he can really mess with someone. I'm sure he volunteered for the X-men job once he knew more about how Wolverine worked.

I'm just saying. I guess what this is really about is all the people who love Apocalypse and think nobody can beat him. I have to hear a lot of things in the shop and this was me venting.

I would think that most of us would agree that if dealing with Apocalypse was the Avengers' job (taking Earth's Mightiest Heroes era Avengers here) then that guy wouldn't get out of his parking lot. Right? :)

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

so, what did happen? i saw the preview, but not sure what the ultimate reveal was.

The answers and much more can be found, my friend, in the latest issue of Wolverine! On sale now! Excelsior!

[Maxwell]

This is going to make an awesome collected story. I hope they do an OHC.

[leafinsectman]

Has it been implied anywhere that Dark Reign is leading up to this showdown between heroes and villains that keeps getting mentioned in Old Man Logan? I kinda doubt it but holy shit if its all coordinated.

[Jef UK]

The answers and much more can be found, my friend, in the latest issue of Wolverine! On sale now! Excelsior!

:)

[Maxwell]

Has it been implied anywhere that Dark Reign is leading up to this showdown between heroes and villains that keeps getting mentioned in Old Man Logan? I kinda doubt it but holy shit if its all coordinated.

No, but Millar says that Old Man Logan is the future of the Marvel Universe.

[Jef UK]

I would think that most of us would agree that if dealing with Apocalypse was the Avengers' job (taking Earth's Mightiest Heroes era Avengers here) then that guy wouldn't get out of his parking lot. Right? :)

Morgan Le Fey got 'em good in the Heroes Return, Busiek / Perez relaunch!

[Kefky]

No, but Millar says that Old Man Logan is the future of the Marvel Universe.

Which is just dumb hype, since he doesn't get to decide something like that. :no:

[Maxwell]

Which is just dumb hype, since he doesn't get to decide something like that. :no:

Well, the future is never going to be reached, so it may as well be the real future.

[Kefky]

And that's what makes it dumb hype. :)


As an alternate future story, it's pretty good, though.

[Maxwell]

And that's what makes it dumb hype. :)


As an alternate future story, it's pretty good, though.

But who says it's alternate!?!?!??! :mad:







;)

[Brad N.]

I'm enjoying the hell out of this story and as implausible as it all is it's still fun. Seriously, not a chance in fucking hell even out of control berserker Wolvie can topple 40 X-men at the same time, but who cares? It made for a shocking twist (that I pretty much guessed at from the first issue) and I can't wait to see where it goes from here.

[leafinsectman]

Seriously, not a chance in fucking hell even out of control berserker Wolvie can topple 40 X-men at the same time, but who cares?

I think its even more implausible that Jubilation can last 90 mins with Logan but whatever, its still fucking awesome.

[Artie Pink]

well, duh. He wanted to have a shock to the reader, so he wrote something that would shock and surprise.

how else do you do it?

It's a fun story... but Millar is relying on shock value a little too heavily these days. He's at risk of M. Night Shyamamalalan Disease.

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

Morgan Le Fey got 'em good in the Heroes Return, Busiek / Perez relaunch!

And she hasn't been heard from since. I know that's about to change, but you get my point. Apocalypse just keeps coming back over and over. I mean the guy made students drink his blood while on school grounds for crying out loud.

[leafinsectman]

Millar is relying on shock value a little too heavily these days.

I don't think he relies too much on it, its just more evident than his other storytelling techniques. Logan trying to hurt himself with the train is heartbreaking, you could almost feel the hurt that he went through. Its rare that I feel that sort of emotion when I read comics and I like it when a writer makes me feel things besides "that's cool" or "fucking awesome!" or "meh"

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

I don't think he relies too much on it, its just more evident than his other storytelling techniques. Logan trying to hurt himself with the train is heartbreaking, you could almost feel the hurt that he went through. Its rare that I feel that sort of emotion when I read comics and I like it when a writer makes me feel things besides "that's cool" or "fucking awesome!" or "meh"

I agree. Don't get me wrong, the issue had mindless killin' as some folks like it, but it also had a moment of hard clarity about the nature of that violence and what it really is. What Wolverine really is.

I don't know how he does it, but Millar knows how to play both angles sometimes. With the Ultimates you do get Captain America kicking people who weak or aren't Americans if that is what you need to see, but you also have the very real angle of why is this happening and what are the repercussions of doing things this way staring you in the face also.

And I thought that Millar showed a lot of heart with the conclusion of 1985, I was impressed and surprised.

[Petyr Baelish]

It was pretty shock-value-for-the-sake-of-shock-value.

The Millar vice.

[NickT]

Well, I haven't read the issue, so I'm probably talking out of my ass a little. But I think, with the element of surprise, and no time to react, Wolverine could easily kill all of the X-Men.
I agree. Could Wolverine kill all the X-Men in a fight? Probably not. Could he kill them all if they didn't realise what he was doing until he was too late? Sure.

[Artie Pink]

I don't think he relies too much on it, its just more evident than his other storytelling techniques. Logan trying to hurt himself with the train is heartbreaking, you could almost feel the hurt that he went through. Its rare that I feel that sort of emotion when I read comics and I like it when a writer makes me feel things besides "that's cool" or "fucking awesome!" or "meh"

Comics should be fun, so I don't mean to complain. It was just a little... blatant, is all.

Millar wrote a sweet, hearbreaking, funny moment for Franklin Richards in the new FF, by the way.

[JimboX]

It was pretty shock-value-for-the-sake-of-shock-value.

It's more like awesome-for-the-sake-of-awesome! This is one of the greatest stories I've ever read!

[Fake Pat]

I know that the whole "Wolverine couldn't kill all the X-Men!" argument sounds fairly nitpicky, but when you're talking about a moment that supposed to be the key point of the entire book it needs to be solid.

And it just isn't in this case. The amount of holes in the scenario is stunning. I don't usually have these kinds of problems buying into stories in a universe filled with ridiculous shit, but this one was so shaky that it sucked me right out of the story.

[Ashton]

that was a big fucking whoops on Logan's part for sure.

[MabusRex]

Possible out is that Mysterio fucked with all the other X-Men's heads at the same time, making it easy for Wolverine to take 'em out.

...Still doesn't explain how he can gut and kill Iceman in ice form, though...

[Fake Pat]

Possible out is that Mysterio fucked with all the other X-Men's heads at the same time, making it easy for Wolverine to take 'em out.
...Still doesn't explain how he can gut and kill Iceman in ice form, though...

Except Jubilee knew it was Wolverine.

...and that still doesn't explain why it took a HOUR AND A HALF for him to kill her. Or why he wasn't confused when Bullseye kept throwing sparkles at him. Etc.

[leafinsectman]

Millar wrote a sweet, hearbreaking, funny moment for Franklin Richards in the new FF, by the way.

Yeah I saw that. I've been enjoying his FF so far even if its not the super awesomest thing ever. Millar, to me, is one of those writers that as soon as I read something of him its either "holy shit!" or "wtf seriously?" but if I give it enough time to sink in I'm able to appreciate it more. It might not always work out that way but there's more to him than just someone who relies on shock value to tell a story.

[morlock with a day pass]

Except Jubilee knew it was Wolverine.

...and that still doesn't explain why it took a HOUR AND A HALF for him to kill her. Or why he wasn't confused when Bullseye kept throwing sparkles at him. Etc.

mysterio helped her last that long just to fuck with logan all the more maybe?

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

Comics should be fun, so I don't mean to complain. It was just a little... blatant, is all.

Millar wrote a sweet, hearbreaking, funny moment for Franklin Richards in the new FF, by the way.

I agree with the FF. I wasn't really feeling this issue, but that one thing there did it.

Millar definitely has his moments. There are times when he goes generic and that's ok because sometimes generic is what is needed. And other times he adds this touch of something that leaves an impression on you. It could be something harsh or it could be something touching and thoughtful.

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

I know that the whole "Wolverine couldn't kill all the X-Men!" argument sounds fairly nitpicky, but when you're talking about a moment that supposed to be the key point of the entire book it needs to be solid.

And it just isn't in this case. The amount of holes in the scenario is stunning. I don't usually have these kinds of problems buying into stories in a universe filled with ridiculous shit, but this one was so shaky that it sucked me right out of the story.

The book is called Wolverine though. Not X-men. In his own book, for the purposes of the story in which he is the main character, he can be so dangerous that he could accidentally kill all the X-men to death. At any time.

Given the context, it all worked for me. It was rough, but it checks for me.

[Captain Sensation]

Damn you people, i just bought issues 67 - 70 cause of this thread. I was tempted to get these issues a few days ago cause of this new girl Jermaine has at his store, but ill be damned if this thread didn't get me to buy them anyway.

[tim nixon]

Except Jubilee knew it was Wolverine.

...and that still doesn't explain why it took a HOUR AND A HALF for him to kill her. Or why he wasn't confused when Bullseye kept throwing sparkles at him. Etc.

because mysterio was messing with wolverine's senses, was it really an hour and a half? doubt it.

anyhoo... i get to see my least favorite character in all of comicdom bite it twice this issue. beautiful.

[TheTravis!]

Again - I haven't read the issue, so forgive me, but...

If Jubilee is shooting fireworks at Wolverine, how can it NOT be an alternate future? Jubilee is one of the mutants who lost their powers on M-day.

[Fake Pat]

The book is called Wolverine though. Not X-men. In his own book, for the purposes of the story in which he is the main character, he can be so dangerous that he could accidentally kill all the X-men to death. At any time.

Given the context, it all worked for me. It was rough, but it checks for me.

Sure, he could be, but not providing an explanation that isn't chock full of holes isn't OK just because of the book's title.

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

Damn you people, i just bought issues 67 - 70 cause of this thread. I was tempted to get these issues a few days ago cause of this new girl Jermaine has at his store, but ill be damned if this thread didn't get me to buy them anyway.

Soooo, I had nothing to do with your choice to buy those issues either online or in person? :nonono2:

[Evan the Shaggy]

Again - I haven't read the issue, so forgive me, but...

If Jubilee is shooting fireworks at Wolverine, how can it NOT be an alternate future? Jubilee is one of the mutants who lost their powers on M-day.

Down the road, I don't see M-Day sticking. Good point though.

[Artie Pink]

Millar definitely has his moments. There are times when he goes generic and that's ok because sometimes generic is what is needed. And other times he adds this touch of something that leaves an impression on you. It could be something harsh or it could be something touching and thoughtful.


Are there times when he fucks up, too? 'Cuz I think he has those as well! :lol:

I get a lotta kick for my buck on Millar's books, but I will admit that he swings big and misses big sometimes.

[LenNWallace]

This book reads like some of the most masturbatory fan-fiction ever concocted and then set up with really gorgeous artwork. Millar needs to reign it in a bit.

[Captain Sensation]

Soooo, I had nothing to do with your choice to buy those issues either online or in person? :nonono2:

if you had long hair and breasts we might have made a transaction work. Sadly you were of no use, but hey, i bought Fortune and Glory right?

This issue is crazy, lol @ stryfe saying "hello wolverine, this is the big one". I think i need to read issue 69 first and hope that the dialogue comes off better.

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

if you had long hair and breasts we might have made a transaction work.

If you think there's any way I will let you forget you typed that, you're probably mistaken. That is on the permanent record.

[WilliamRichard1985]

I haven't read an X-Men story since Tomorrow People.

Once I finished that,I felt like I had gotten everything I ever wanted out of an X story.

[Jef UK]

If you think there's any way I will let you forget you typed that, you're probably mistaken. That is on the permanent record.

At least he didn't write, "long hair OR breasts."

[A.Huerta]

But it's even stated in the book that they couldn't stop him because they were holding back... :mistrust:



I don't get it. There isn't any other team in the marvel universe that's dealt with fucked up people in their team then the x-men, and you don't think they could've somehow stopped Wolverine?

I mean, Bucky stopped berserker rage Wolverine all by himself, and he doesn't even have powers.

Writers a lot of the time dumb down wolverine for their other characters to come out on top. I mean , not many people in the MU have the healing factor, the Years, The Unbreakable Claws and the Fighting Experience, and yet somehow, Wolverine always loses to a lesser character to make them look cooler.

[Captain Sensation]

Just finished reading 69 and 70. I think 70 was over the top in terms of violence. I guess i was disappointed in how short the fight scenes were but the amount of blood compensated for that i guess. WTF is up with the Venom Dinosaur??

[Jef UK]

WTF is up with the Venom Dinosaur??

Awesomeness.

I laughed out loud with glee when I got to that last page.

[TheTravis!]

Writers a lot of the time dumb down wolverine for their other characters to come out on top. I mean , not many people in the MU have the healing factor, the Years, The Unbreakable Claws and the Fighting Experience, and yet somehow, Wolverine always loses to a lesser character to make them look cooler.

This is also true of Worf on Star Trek. Certified Klingon badass, yet his typical story use is to get slapped around by the alien of the week so we know the alien's a threat.

[Dreg]

Mysterio was awesome, but Millar still has major problems writing Wolverine. There has to be a happy medium between the panty-waist Wolverine of Enemy of the State (who couldn't even take Daredevil with an army of ninjas and a catalogue of new superpowers) and Death Incarnate.


I mean, Bucky stopped berserker rage Wolverine all by himself, and he doesn't even have powers.

In Origins? That was Bucky's girlfriend. Bucky's girlfriend saved him by shooting Wolverine in the back.

[A.Huerta]

This is also true of Worf on Star Trek. Certified Klingon badass, yet his typical story use is to get slapped around by the alien of the week so we know the alien's a threat.

Hahaha I remember those.

[Shwicaz]

Just finished reading 69 and 70. I think 70 was over the top in terms of violence. I guess i was disappointed in how short the fight scenes were but the amount of blood compensated for that i guess. WTF is up with the Venom Dinosaur??


Awesomeness.

I laughed out loud with glee when I got to that last page.

At first I was like What the.....

before I could think the word '...fuck?', I, too, was laughing my ass off so much my sides hurt.

[Evan the Shaggy]

Mysterio was awesome, but Millar still has major problems writing Wolverine. There has to be a happy medium between the panty-waist Wolverine of Enemy of the State (who couldn't even take Daredevil with an army of ninjas and a catalogue of new superpowers) and Death Incarnate.


Daredevil isn't exactly a slouch though. I could see him taking down a number of people who had powers.

[Dreg]

This is also true of Worf on Star Trek. Certified Klingon badass, yet his typical story use is to get slapped around by the alien of the week so we know the alien's a threat.

I remember Worf having a fight with a Dominion soldier that totally mirrored the Champion vs. Thing fight from Marvel Two in One. "I cannot defeat this man, I can only kill him!"

[AndrewG]

Just finished reading 69 and 70. I think 70 was over the top in terms of violence. I guess i was disappointed in how short the fight scenes were but the amount of blood compensated for that i guess. WTF is up with the Venom Dinosaur??

My kid had pretty much the same reaction. I thought it was a fun read and I've been enjoying the hell out of this arc both for McNiven's art and the over the top Millar writing. I thought he was going to love this issue but he said it was way too short (it read too fast) and what I thought was a cool last page had him looking at me like I was a crazy person

[Devil's Karma]

Writers a lot of the time dumb down wolverine for their other characters to come out on top. I mean , not many people in the MU have the healing factor, the Years, The Unbreakable Claws and the Fighting Experience, and yet somehow, Wolverine always loses to a lesser character to make them look cooler.

Wolverine: the Marvel equivalent to wrestling's Jobber.

[AndrewG]

There is not a lot that prevents Wolverine from unexpectedly assassinating everyone from moment to moment. Its a struggle for him not to and probably is his greatest fear. The threat of what happened in Wolverine #70 is real and ever-present. This is just the first time its really been illustrated. Someone plays some song only Wolverine can hear or burns a certain candle and he's just killed everyone. Never forget that Wolverine fans. I think I almost have a new understanding of the character now because of this issue. He wants to be around people, but he knows on some level that he could turn on everyone and not really have a choice about it. That's a huge burden.

I'm not that up on the particulars of the X-Men and can't really comment on how efficient they are or aren't as a team and won't get into the whole could Wolverine beat them debate but I did want to address your point, which I thought was very insightful.

I think one of the things fans forget when it comes to the character (maybe because he is so popular and appears in all these titles) is that there is this darkness within him. I think that's what makes him a unique character among the Batmans and Spider-Mans of the comic world. He tries to do good but there is this darkness inside of him that he has to contain. Batman can be considered dark because of his roots but I don't think the DCU needs to worry about him one day killing his friends.

When you're marketing a character to a mass audience and putting him into all these other books and trying to get kids to enjoy it it's easy to overlook and gloss over it and relegate him into just a bad ass type hero but I am appreciative of what Millar did in this story if just to show what this guy's nature truly can be.

[A.Huerta]

Just felt like posting this.
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa116/WeaponXIX/wolverinebatman.jpg
By Ryan Ottley

[Dreg]

Just felt like posting this.
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa116/WeaponXIX/wolverinebatman.jpg
By Ryan Ottley

Everybody likes to visit their family for the holidays. Wolverine was just helping Batman visit his.

[Shwicaz]

the look on Batman's face is priceless!

[Captain Sensation]

If you think there's any way I will let you forget you typed that, you're probably mistaken. That is on the permanent record.

Thats cool, just as long as you dont actually try to grow long hair/put on a wig and get fake boobs. Ive been able to think about my purchases when it comes to things you suggest. There were times where that always wasnt the case. Girls that work at comic stores still can get me to buy stuff im not absolutely sold on because of the aforementioned breasts and long hair. Don't be too down though nothing personal.

[TheTravis!]

the look on Batman's face is priceless!

He could have totally defeated being stabbed to death, if he'd had enough prep time.

[Shwicaz]

Thats cool, just as long as you dont actually try to grow long hair/put on a wig and get fake boobs. Ive been able to think about my purchases when it comes to things you suggest. There were times where that always wasnt the case. Girls that work at comic stores still can get me to buy stuff im not absolutely sold on because of the aforementioned breasts and long hair. Nothing personal though.




Here you have a retailer with years of experience and enthusiasm....and you are telling him that you are more prone to buy something from someone with breasts and long hair than you would from him, the guy who actually knows the business/titles inside out and owns the store.


wow.

[TheTravis!]

Girls that work at comic stores still can get me to buy stuff im not absolutely sold on because of the aforementioned breasts and long hair.

That's, like, the saddest fucking thing I have ever read.

[Shwicaz]

He could have totally defeated being stabbed to death, if he'd had enough prep time.


:rofl:

thank god for you, T.

[Captain Sensation]

Here you have a retailer with years of experience and enthusiasm....and you are telling him that you are more prone to buy something from someone with breasts and long hair than you would from him, the guy who actually knows the business/titles inside out and owns the store.


wow.

Yes....not like im proud of it or anything, lets just call it kryptonite.

[TheTravis!]

Here you have a retailer with years of experience and enthusiasm....and you are telling him that you are more prone to buy something from someone with breasts and long hair than you would from him, the guy who actually knows the business/titties inside out and owns the store.


wow.

This is what I read at first.

[Shwicaz]

Yes....

...just checkin'. :cool:

[bartleby]

Here you have a retailer with years of experience and enthusiasm....and you are telling him that you are more prone to buy something from someone with breasts and long hair than you would from him, the guy who actually knows the business/titles inside out and owns the store.


wow.

This really calls into question Jermaine's status as a retail genius. He's been trying to sell comics with a sales pitch when it would have been more effective for him to just be an attractive female. Though I guess he does get some credit for finally hiring the girl.

[Shwicaz]

This really calls into question Jermaine's status as a retail genius. He's been trying to sell comics with a sales pitch when it would have been more effective for him to just be an attractive female. Though I guess he does get some credit for finally hiring the girl.


when Shannon was hired at the store, I noticed that people would come to the store on the weekends, when she worked, as opposed to during the week when I worked.

Then my employer was discounting my opinions, but when she would say the same thing, he would declare her a genius.

I quit shortly after, telling him (no lie) I was quitting because "I don't have tits, and I don't plan on growing any anytime soon".

:rofl:

(it's funny NOW, but I was ripshit then. Luckily, Shannon and I never let that come between us, and are still great friends, and hang out often.)

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

Here you have a retailer with years of experience and enthusiasm....and you are telling him that you are more prone to buy something from someone with breasts and long hair than you would from him, the guy who actually knows the business/titles inside out and owns the store.


wow.

It kinda hurts, but that's the business. And I know that, but still...

I got to sell Chris Daughtry on Sinestro Corps War today so I still have the ol' pepper!

[Shwicaz]

Hey Jermaine--

Me and matt are gonna be near your neck of the woods the first week in feb.....will keep you posted......

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

This really calls into question Jermaine's status as a retail genius. He's been trying to sell comics with a sales pitch when it would have been more effective for him to just be an attractive female. Though I guess he does get some credit for finally hiring the girl.

We've had numerous female employees, just not recently. And yeah, some people have been real weird lately. Someone even asked her out the minute my back was turned. Nothing ever happens when I'm in the room, but as sometimes when people have left I hear what got said and I wonder where in the world I was when that was going on. For the most part everything is very cool, but still. The real problem though is people sometimes try to get over on the new employee thinking that I will never hear about it. "I never said I wanted this" or "Jermaine always lets me do that" that type of stuff.

[rwsmith]

Loved this issue! This is what happens when someone takes a living weapon and clicks the safety off.

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

Hey Jermaine--

Me and matt are gonna be near your neck of the woods the first week in feb.....will keep you posted......

YES! Although I have something cool lined up at the shop for the first weekend in March. I'll tell you more about it when things are locked so maybe you can adjust your trip some.

[Shwicaz]

YES! Although I have something cool lined up at the shop for the first weekend in March. I'll tell you more about it when things are locked so maybe you can adjust your trip some.

Damn, wish I could, but we are visiting the in-laws in Florida, and I already got the vacation time approved, and taken off the schedule for the week.

But, you can tell me all your evil plans when I see you. And we DO plan on seeing you. Stopping by your place on our vacationis a tradition I don't want to end.

Matt even asked "So, are we going to stop by your friend's store?"

He's so sweet!

[cmoney]

Awesomeness.

I laughed out loud with glee when I got to that last page.

Word. I was more like WTF is up with people hating on Venom Dinosaur?

[NickT]

Word. I was more like WTF is up with people hating on Venom Dinosaur?
I love it, but I can get why some wouldn't like it. There are people in the world who see the Crank 2 trailer and go "Holy fuck that is awesome!", there are people who see it and go "What the fuck? That's stupid". Batshit insanity divides the world :)

[Fake Pat]

This book reads like some of the most masturbatory fan-fiction ever concocted and then set up with really gorgeous artwork. Millar needs to reign it in a bit.

I like it overall, but this is still a pretty dead-on assessment.

[NickT]

This book reads like some of the most masturbatory fan-fiction ever concocted and then set up with really gorgeous artwork. Millar needs to reign it in a bit.
I don't get this argument. What makes a story fan-ficcy? Is DKR like fanfic too?

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

I don't get this argument. What makes a story fan-ficcy? Is DKR like fanfic too?

I play street fighter all the time and I pretty much always loose on Guile's stage because of you and your nonsense.

[Fake Pat]

I don't get this argument. What makes a story fan-ficcy? Is DKR like fanfic too?

The feeling of non-stop "KOOOOOL!" moments that only work on a completely superficial level.

[Jef UK]

I totally buy that Wolvie could take out an entire X-Team if he's in the zone, and they are unwilling to kill him. Who could take him besides maybe a mind-fuck from Ems or Xavier, which would be futile when he's in beserker mode anyway?

[Fake Pat]

I totally buy that Wolvie could take out an entire X-Team if he's in the zone, and they are unwilling to kill him. Who could take him besides maybe a mind-fuck from Ems or Xavier, which would be futile when he's in beserker mode anyway?

I'd love to answer, but I'm trying to keep myself from completely descending into full-on-fanboy-with-too-much-free-time mode.

:(

[Jef UK]

I'd love to answer, but I'm trying to keep myself from completely descending into full-on-fanboy-with-too-much-free-time mode.

:(

I think the answer is simply, "Storm." :)

Except she'd take out too many kids or teammates to do it.

[nick maynard]

And once again, I applaud Marvel's willingness to swap villains within their shared universe. Those have been some of the most interesting stories. Spider-man versus Juggernaut, Mysterio versus Daredevil, Annihilus versus everyone other than the FF. It goes back to NA Breakout where Cage had to hold off Carnage and he commented about how this was one of Spider-man's villains and he was having a really hard time.

i could not agree more.

wolverine versus bullseye. wolverine versus doctor octopus. wolverine versus klaw. wolverine versus hobgoblin. however brief those fights were in this issue, it is seriously amazing to see heroes fighting villains i've never seen them fight before. marvel needs to do more of this ASAP.

[Fake Pat]

I think the answer is simply, "Storm." :)

Except she'd take out too many kids or teammates to do it.

...or "Iceman".











DAMN YOU!

[Maestro]

This is all alternate universe stuff. Wolverine could never beat the X-Men on his own, never!!

[nick maynard]

I totally buy that Wolvie could take out an entire X-Team if he's in the zone, and they are unwilling to kill him. Who could take him besides maybe a mind-fuck from Ems or Xavier, which would be futile when he's in beserker mode anyway?
yeah, aside from xavier, i don't think anyone would have been able to stop him.

if he runs up to cyclops, or beast, or jubilee, or iceman, or gambit, they wouldn't realize he was running up to them in order to cut their heads off. they would let him get close, they would expect nothing, and it would take one second for wolverine to cut them open.

now, it's a whole different kind of fight if wolverine announced he was coming to kill them before he ran over to them. the fact that it was a surprise is what gives him the total advantage.

[Jerome Gibbons]

I thought the fight was pretty cool. The violence was fabulously rendered by McNiven. I saw the reveal coming a bit ago, but by the time I saw the actual fight I was hoping they'd turn out to be the villains for real, and the whole thing was a look at Wolverine truly unleashed.

Mysterio was pretty great, though. I really liked that.

[Jef UK]

We also can't say if Mysterio was fucking with the rest of the team in some way, further debilitating their ability to fight back.

[Fake Pat]

We also can't say if Mysterio was fucking with the rest of the team in some way, further debilitating their ability to fight back.

But then how did he pull that off against all the X-Men? And how would Jubilee have known what was happening if he did?

The problem is that they went into just enough detail to reveal a bunch of reasons why it makes almost no sense, but not far enough to plug any of those holes up.

That's why this didn't really work, but Hawkeye just telling Logan that Magneto and the Absorbing Man took down Thor did. I'm totally willing to buy into stuff that countless nerds would argue in order to serve a larger story, but not when you go out of your way to explain it in a way that doesn't hold up nearly as good as the arguments us nerds make.

[cmoney]

I love it, but I can get why some wouldn't like it. There are people in the world who see the Crank 2 trailer and go "Holy fuck that is awesome!", there are people who see it and go "What the fuck? That's stupid". Batshit insanity divides the world :)

I like dinosaurs and I like Venom, but I don't like Crank ... it's weird, but I am so much more willing to accept stuff like this in my comics than I am in my movies. I guess I just come to the two mediums for somewhat different reasons.

[Kefky]

Anybody who thinks that something good could come out of DINO-VENOM is out of their goddamn minds.

[bartleby]

The only way T-Rex Venom could be any more awesome is if it was Devil Dinosaur Venom.

[leafinsectman]

Daredevil isn't exactly a slouch though. I could see him taking down a number of people who had powers.

Yeah I agree, I always saw him as the blind and lower income Batman :p


Loved this issue! This is what happens when someone takes a living weapon and clicks the safety off.

Love the sig :D

[John M. Coker (Johnny C.)]

Eh, I wasn't really bitching about it, just commenting on it. I liked the issue.

I didn't mean you specifically, just in general, I've sen a lot of "No way could Wolverine kill all the X-Men by himself!" Which I just think is an odd thing to harp on, since with the way he's been portrayed in that last few years, he could.

[John M. Coker (Johnny C.)]

This is going to make an awesome collected story. I hope they do an OHC.

That's what I'm hoping, with lots of extras. Give it the Civil War OHC treatment, it deserves more than just a PHC.

[Jef UK]

But then how did he pull that off against all the X-Men? And how would Jubilee have known what was happening if he did?

The problem is that they went into just enough detail to reveal a bunch of reasons why it makes almost no sense, but not far enough to plug any of those holes up.

Hm, I don't agree. It's Mysterio and it's all pretty vague. Just as he allowed Wolvie to see what was real in the end to fuck with him, he could have let Jubilee see what was happening too. Or he could have just slowed the X-Men down in some way.

Wolverine could take an X-Squad!!!

:)

[Dr. Omega]

Dude, Wolverine has been portrayed as an unstoppable god for years now, hell, at this point he's even immortal.

Lobo beat the crap out of Superman (though he was drunk and did not remember)

Wolverine beat Lobo in DC vs. Marvel. A bone-claw; no Adamantium Wolverine at that.

Ergo, Wolverine is stronger than Superman.

HOWEVER...

Gambit beat Wolverine, so Gambit is stronger than Superman or Lobo

[tim nixon]

Lobo beat the crap out of Superman (though he was drunk and did not remember)

Wolverine beat Lobo in DC vs. Marvel. A bone-claw; no Adamantium Wolverine at that.

Ergo, Wolverine is stronger than Superman.

HOWEVER...

Gambit beat Wolverine, so Gambit is stronger than Superman or Lobo

by that logic, gambit is also stronger than himself, cause he beats himself all the time

[RegHorsten]

by that logic, gambit is also stronger than himself, cause he beats himself all the time

I think you are reading to much into the subtext.:)

When is this run with Millar wrapping up? Any word on a tpb date?

[Patrick J]

Dark Phoenix and Madeline Pryor in Inferno were way stronger than Wolvie could ever hoped to be, and they didn't kill all the x-men as quickly as he did here.

I'm just saying, they would've stopped him somehow. It's silly to believe they wouldn't.

Here's the thing; how do we know that the other X-Men weren't also under the influence of Mysterio?

'Cause think about, if all the X-Men were hypnotized into thinking there's a whole bunch of villains left n' right and they're all just fighting and killing one another left n' right in a knock-down, drag-out brawl then chances are Wolverine would come out on top, I think. The only two members of the X-Men that I could see giving Wolverine a problem would be Storm and maybe Cyclops. Other than them two, I think it'd be no contest. Wolverine may be assuming he was the one that killed all the other X-Men, but for all we know there might be some kinda twist here; granted we did see most/all the X-Men cut up to shit and all covered in claw marks but the final moments of 'Old Man Logan' may reveal that Cyclops was in actuality killed by say... Storm, and maybe Colossus snapped Storm's neck, and so on and so forth; all the different X-Men killed eachother, and Wolverine just wound up being the Last Man Standing, and perhaps in his rage he still went ahead cutting the holy shit outta the corpses.

I mean, it's just a thought and I know I'm looking/thinking way too much into it, but it's still something to consider.

[Shwicaz]

We don't know. We only have Mysterio's words that said that the x-men held back.


But, the man just ruined Wolverine forever. Forced him to kill his friends.

Why would he stand over him, while crowing about what he did, and lie to wolverine?

Wolverine was already broken. Mysterio's lie about the x-men holding back wasn't going to be the thing that twisted the knife in an already broken man.


Then again, the story isn't over, and there could be a big reveal like that, resulting in Wolverine getting his balls back for a claw-poppin', jaw-droppin' finale......


guess we will have to wait and see.

[cmoney]

Anybody who thinks that something good could come out of DINO-VENOM is out of their goddamn minds.

Dino-Venom IS the something good. I could care less what it does, the fact that it exists is enough for me. :)

[Evan the Shaggy]

How I see it is that every single villain in the Marvel Universe has united basically is the story. So I'm sure Mysterio had HUGE amounts of backup in terms of mental manipulation when it came to attacking the Xmen. I mean its not like he would have been sent in alone to taken down dozens of mutants.

So at the end when Wolverine wakes up, every other villain probably wanted nothing to do with actually being seen by him and possibly sliced to ribbons. Mysterio however is all about the performance and spectacle of it, so can't help himself in popping up at the end and taking all the credit.

Just a theory.

[Patrick J]

Then again, the story isn't over, and there could be a big reveal like that, resulting in Wolverine getting his balls back for a claw-poppin', jaw-droppin' finale......

Exactly. I mean, there's also the hole bit about how Jubilee was all "why are you doing this?", and goin' with the idea that myself and I think Jef UK have thrown at; that all the X-Men were hypnotized and killing one another left n' right, maybe by that time Jubilee was no longer under the spell. And the whole "they were holding back" bit doesn't necessarily mean a damn thing #1 - Mysterio is a Villain! - Villains LIE! #2 - He could've just meant that in the melee the others happened to be holding back, even under the impression that they were fighting a boatload a' villains they may have all been holding back; as the X-Men tend to do. Wolverine on the other hand didn't, because Wolverine usually doesn't hold back.

And like you said; there could be some big reveal that leads Wolverine to say "ah, Fuck It! I'm poppin' the Claws". There is the logic/notion that 'Old Man Logan' is somehow going to tie into the continuity/events in Millar's Fantastic Four. And in Millar's Fantastic Four we've met a Wolverine from the Future, who is clearly poppin' the claws happily; but he also you may have noticed friendly with the Hulk from the Future, in fact that Hulk (I forget his name) referred to Wolverine as "Dad."

I could see the story ending with Wolverine making it to his destination with Hawkeye and learning the horrible truth; that he really wasn't completely responsible for killing all the X-Men. Lifted of this burden - he pops the claws - Makes it back home, pays his rent to Redneck Yokel Hulk Family and they fuck with him anyway, or maybe he just says "Fuck this shit!" and kills 'em anyway, leaving that one infant Hulk Baby alive and raises it as his own and that's the same Hulk we see in Millar's Fantastic Four; though I got the implication that those Hulk Clan members were inbred, but y'never know.

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

If Wolverine turned on everyone and fought them as though they were enemies, then he could kill them all. Quickly. He could kill several in just a few moves as the art showed. And not one of them could pull it together in time to calculate something. Cyclops couldn't fire full force without hitting others, Storm couldn't whip up anything in time or use lightning for fear of hitting others. And Emma would not be able to compose herself in the face of the carnage fast enough to get into his mind. I love the X-men, but they are not invincible nor are they ready for anything at all. I'm not even a huge Wolverine fan, but the way that went down checks out for me.

[Dr. Omega]

by that logic, gambit is also stronger than himself, cause he beats himself all the time
Don't we all.. what's your point ;)