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hotdogdownahallway
01-02-2009, 06:34 PM
Question mainly for the Americans on the board. Although Benbo'ers from other countries are free to chime in as well.

I certainly don't take the mindset that Israel 'can do no wrong'. Collateral damage as a result of targeting the Palestinian terrorist apparatus has killed a lot of Palestinian civilians really irks me. Frankly, both sides are terrorizing each other and I know this conflict won't even be close to getting peacefully resolved in my lifetime.

bachman
01-02-2009, 06:35 PM
I like Bagels.

Ray G.
01-02-2009, 06:41 PM
It's a war, Israel's more in the right than the other side (mainly because they accidentally kill civilians, as opposed to deliberately), and only one side had celebrations on 9/11.

That's about the size of it.

artimoff
01-02-2009, 06:44 PM
They bring a knife, we bring a gun. They put one of us in the hospital, we put one of them in the mourge.

I always liked the story of Joshua as well.

stevapalooza
01-02-2009, 06:49 PM
ooooh these never end well.

19bernardo87
01-02-2009, 06:51 PM
Death to Israel! Err, I mean, no.

RebootedCorpse
01-02-2009, 06:57 PM
Israel is not immune from the same sort of evaluation that we give, or should give, to any other country.

19bernardo87
01-02-2009, 06:58 PM
Israel is not immune from the same sort of evaluation that we give, or should give, to any other country.

But apparently politicians are immune from reason and common sense.

King of Mars
01-02-2009, 07:01 PM
I'm having a really hard time figuring out where Israel's moral high ground is in the conflict with the Palestinians. They're the occupiers, they have the greater military might, they're preventing the Palestinians from receiving essential, life saving supplies, and they've initiated more raiding missions across the border than the Palestinians. Why are they perceived as "the good guys"?

CougarTrace
01-02-2009, 07:03 PM
It's a war, Israel's more in the right than the other side (mainly because they accidentally kill civilians, as opposed to deliberately), and only one side had celebrations on 9/11.

That's about the size of it.

perfectly said.

Ray G.
01-02-2009, 07:03 PM
I'm having a really hard time figuring out where Israel's moral high ground is in the conflict with the Palestinians. They're the occupiers, they have the greater military might, they're preventing the Palestinians from receiving essential, life saving supplies, and they've initiated more raiding missions across the border than the Palestinians. Why are they perceived as "the good guys"?

Because the Palestinians blow up pizza parlors, use sniper rifles on babies, and shoot up Yeshivas.

Also, Israel isn't "occupying" anything. The Palestinians lost that land in three straight wars that they and their allies started.

19bernardo87
01-02-2009, 07:03 PM
I'm having a really hard time figuring out where Israel's moral high ground is in the conflict with the Palestinians. They're the occupiers, they have the greater military might, they're preventing the Palestinians from receiving essential, life saving supplies, and they've initiated more raiding missions across the border than the Palestinians. Why are they perceived as "the good guys"?

Are you familiar with the best-selling fantasy book called The Bible? :scared:

I don't think Israel is worse than the Palestinians though... Although I think they can make a lot of bad decisions and we tend to just turn a blind eye.

SMACK!
01-02-2009, 07:04 PM
I believe that we should take care of Home first and Neighbors second. Right now isn't the time to continue to meddle in other nations affairs.

Doc Randy
01-02-2009, 07:16 PM
Because the Palestinians blow up pizza parlors, use sniper rifles on babies, and shoot up Yeshivas.

Then let us transfer over $100 billion to the Palestinians (an amount we have given to Israel) and give them a chance to develop a conventional warfighting apparatus. Let the Palestinians and Israelis go at it toe-to-toe.
Otherwise, you will always get terrorism and unconventional warfare tactics in an asymmetrical battlefield. That's just Military History 101.



Also, Israel isn't "occupying" anything. The Palestinians lost that land in three straight wars that they and their allies started.

Unless the Palestinians have complete sovereignty over their domain, or all Palestinians are fully integrated into Israeli society and civil structure with the exact same rights and privileges as Israelis, then yes, it is by definition an occupation. Or an apartheid. You can choose.





...

I actually side with Israel on this (I don't know how anybody can side with Hamas), but can't help thinking about the famous quote often attributed to Einstein, "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."

This current fighting is not going to make the Israeli people any safer, nor will it give them the peace they desire.

As to the original question, sure, feel free to be critical of any nation, including your own. No nation is above criticism.

Ben
01-02-2009, 07:25 PM
If you don't like what Israel's doing, then you should move!

JoeE
01-02-2009, 07:34 PM
Frankly, both sides are terrorizing each other and I know this conflict won't even be close to getting peacefully resolved in my lifetime.

That's because there is no peaceful solution. American and Europe tend to approach the situation as if both sides want peace, but the Palestinians genuinely want war (they wouldn't have elected Hamas if they didn't), and a small but vocal minority of the Israeli leadership wants it too.

My guess is that eventually one of the populations is either going to be moved or slaughtered wholesale, or some combination of the two. Hopefully the former, though. I tend to see the Israelis ending up the losers in the long run, because the Palestinians are quite simply going to eventually far outnumber them. I know that there is a significant number of Israelis that will never, ever leave Israel - they will die first - but I do hope most of them leave in time. Then the Palestinians can have their shitty little state, and when it fails they won't have any Jews around to blame anymore.

Artie Pink
01-02-2009, 07:39 PM
Next time there's a truce, let's see who breaks it. Then we'll all agree to be on the other guys' side for life. Sound fair?

Mister Mets
01-02-2009, 07:47 PM
To answer the title question: pretty much.

Joe Kalicki
01-02-2009, 07:51 PM
I'm having a really hard time figuring out where Israel's moral high ground is in the conflict with the Palestinians. They're the occupiers, they have the greater military might, they're preventing the Palestinians from receiving essential, life saving supplies, and they've initiated more raiding missions across the border than the Palestinians. Why are they perceived as "the good guys"?

And they're Jews.

Captain Nate
01-03-2009, 07:59 AM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/01/AR2009010101780_pf.html


I'm having a really hard time figuring out where Israel's moral high ground is in the conflict with the Palestinians. They're the occupiers, they have the greater military might, they're preventing the Palestinians from receiving essential, life saving supplies, and they've initiated more raiding missions across the border than the Palestinians. Why are they perceived as "the good guys"?

Let's reality test this standard: In 2005, Israel completely disengaged from Gaza, evicted their own citizens from the territory and gave the Palestinians complete sovereign control over the territory. The result has not been a peaceful state, rather, they have have turned the region into a terrorist hotbed, importing weapons to use against Israeli civilians with impunity. Exactly as Israel feared, a de facto Palestinian state was used as a pretense to create a launching pad for armed attacks aimed at the ultimate destruction of the State of Israel.


Next time there's a truce, let's see who breaks it. Then we'll all agree to be on the other guys' side for life. Sound fair?

So Israel needs to agree to another truce until more rockets fall or more troops are kidnapped?

BaconWhoreSqueeeaaal
01-03-2009, 08:03 AM
Do I really need to bring up Rachel Corrie?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie

Ashwin Pande
01-03-2009, 08:04 AM
This shit in Gaza needs to be stopped.

Hamas kills 10 people with their rockets, Israel kills 100 with their planes and bombs.

Which country is doing more harm in the region?

Ashton
01-03-2009, 08:05 AM
when Hamas keeps rocketing them what else is Israel suppose to do?
Do I have any special attachment for Israel? no, nothing more than any other country really, but when I look at the situation right now Israel appears completely justified in its attack against Hammas right now. As far as I'm concerned they have brought this on themselves.

Doc Randy
01-03-2009, 08:40 AM
Let's reality test this standard: In 2005, Israel completely disengaged from Gaza, evicted their own citizens from the territory and gave the Palestinians complete sovereign control over the territory.

100% NOT TRUE. False. Inaccurate. BS.

Israel NEVER gave complete sovereign control of Gaza to the Palestinians.

Dan-C
01-03-2009, 08:51 AM
Hamas fired thousands of rockets into Israel before Israel retaliated. I think they have the right to fight back. The fact that Israel pushes back harder than they were pushed should not be held against them.

If a boy kept poking a grizzly bear with a stick then got mauled by said bear, would you blame the bear?

Ray G.
01-03-2009, 08:55 AM
Do I really need to bring up Rachel Corrie?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie

Yes, let's bring up Rachel Corrie.

Much like Mohammed Dura, this is a case that has been heavily disputed by people on both sides. The odds are very heavy it was a tragic accident, not an act of murder.

BaconWhoreSqueeeaaal
01-03-2009, 08:57 AM
Yes, let's bring up Rachel Corrie.

Much like Mohammed Dura, this is a case that has been heavily disputed by people on both sides. The odds are very heavy it was a tragic accident, not an act of murder.

Right because BACKING OVER HER AGAIN with the thing down really was an accident.

Ray G.
01-03-2009, 09:02 AM
Right because BACKING OVER HER AGAIN with the thing down really was an accident.

That detail is disputed as well, as only her allies in the ISM claim that.

No one says it wasn't a tragedy, but the attempt to make it some kind of assassination of a peace activist are a bit out there.

costello
01-03-2009, 09:03 AM
Do I really need to bring up Rachel Corrie?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie

No. Just because you pull a dead American into the argument doesn't make me care any more than I already do. One dead person = one dead person. It doesn't matter which nationality.

BaconWhoreSqueeeaaal
01-03-2009, 09:05 AM
No. Just because you pull a dead American into the argument doesn't make me care any more than I already do. One dead person = one dead person. It doesn't matter which nationality.

Yes, but America should stand behind their own and America didn't. They got rid of as much evidence as they could and anyone who spoke about her was black listed.

In the end, it's none of our fucking business.

bartleby
01-03-2009, 09:09 AM
This shit in Gaza needs to be stopped.

Hamas kills 10 people with their rockets, Israel kills 100 with their planes and bombs.

Which country is doing more harm in the region?


My biggest problem with all the harm that both sides are doing in the region is that it doesn't seem to be bringing this to any kind of resolution. The United States dropping the bomb on Hiroshima did a lot of harm, but at least something was accomplished by doing it. The Middle East conflicts just seem to go on and on with more people getting killed every year and no end in sight.

JimboX
01-03-2009, 09:56 AM
Israel has every right to defend itself! Hamas was firing thousands of rockets into Israel during their "cease-fire". Where was the condemnation of the Palestinians then?

I just wish that Israel would have the fortitude to annihilate it's enemies (i.e. Hamas and Hezbollah) before caving in to UN pressures of a cease-fire which I guarantee you Hamas will not abide by.

Ashwin Pande
01-03-2009, 10:03 AM
My biggest problem with all the harm that both sides are doing in the region is that it doesn't seem to be bringing this to any kind of resolution. The United States dropping the bomb on Hiroshima did a lot of harm, but at least something was accomplished by doing it. The Middle East conflicts just seem to go on and on with more people getting killed every year and no end in sight.

There's no end in sight because there really isn't any resolution that can be reached. Israel isn't going to leave the land and they'll have to kill every Palestinian to get them to leave it, and Palestinians don't want to be wiped out.

It's ironic that a people that were almost wiped out have little qualms about building refugee camps and dividing cities among racial and religious ethnicities and having a secret police that goes into people's houses at night to take them in for random questioning. Ironic and sad.

Taxman
01-03-2009, 10:11 AM
It's ironic that a people that were almost wiped out have little qualms about building refugee camps and dividing cities among racial and religious ethnicities and having a secret police that goes into people's houses at night to take them in for random questioning. Ironic and sad.Theocracy knows no irony.

Jason California
01-03-2009, 10:16 AM
This shit in Gaza needs to be stopped.

Hamas kills 10 people with their rockets, Israel kills 100 with their planes and bombs.

Which country is doing more harm in the region?

I don't think that makes the Israeilis the bad guys.

Ray G.
01-03-2009, 10:17 AM
This shit in Gaza needs to be stopped.

Hamas kills 10 people with their rockets, Israel kills 100 with their planes and bombs.

Which country is doing more harm in the region?

Those 100 killed with planes and bombs wouldn't be dead if those ten hadn't been killed with rockets.

There's your answer.

Death to Hamas.

Joe Kalicki
01-03-2009, 10:17 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzMWe6XyVdc

Ashwin Pande
01-03-2009, 10:31 AM
Those 100 killed with planes and bombs wouldn't be dead if those ten hadn't been killed with rockets.

There's your answer.

Death to Hamas.

I'm sure the dead Palestinian civilians will be satisfied with that.

Violence breeds violence. This attack on the Gaza strip will just create more muslims who'll grow up thinking Israel wants to wipe them out and hell at times like these I'm not even sure that they don't.

India is continually attacked by terrorists and we know that they come from Pakistan but we don't blow the fuck out of them to prove a point. We make one small step to secure ourselves internally and put more pressure on Pakistan through diplomatic channels every time it happens. There is no doubt that Hamas is a terrorist organisation and they need to be dismantled but not this way. This path leads to disaster.

Ashwin Pande
01-03-2009, 10:33 AM
Hamas fired thousands of rockets into Israel before Israel retaliated. I think they have the right to fight back. The fact that Israel pushes back harder than they were pushed should not be held against them.

If a boy kept poking a grizzly bear with a stick then got mauled by said bear, would you blame the bear?

A bear doesn't have the capacity for rational thought, diplomacy and patience.

Israel does.

Or at least, you would suppose they do. At times it doesn't seem like it at all.

CougarTrace
01-03-2009, 10:33 AM
I'm sure the dead Palestinian civilians will be satisfied with that.

Violence breeds violence. This attack on the Gaza strip will just create more muslims who'll grow up thinking Israel wants to wipe them out and hell at times like these I'm not even sure that they don't.

India is continually attacked by terrorists and we know that they come from Pakistan but we don't blow the fuck out of them to prove a point. We make one small step to secure ourselves internally and put more pressure on Pakistan through diplomatic channels every time it happens. There is no doubt that Hamas is a terrorist organisation and they need to be dismantled but not this way. This path leads to disaster.

I'm not sure how you deal with the Hamas then since they will only deal in violence.

Israel while not totally innocent in this, isn't the bad guy in this equation.

WillieLee
01-03-2009, 10:35 AM
This shit in Gaza needs to be stopped.

Hamas kills 10 people with their rockets, Israel kills 100 with their planes and bombs.

Which country is doing more harm in the region?

Is it Israel's fault they do a better job at kicking ass?

Ashwin Pande
01-03-2009, 10:38 AM
Is it Israel's fault they do a better job at kicking ass?

:lol:

Caley Tibbittz
01-03-2009, 10:44 AM
No.

costello
01-03-2009, 10:51 AM
Is it Israel's fault they do a better job at kicking ass?

No, but blockading humanitarian aid before the bombings took place didn't help.

WillieLee
01-03-2009, 10:51 AM
No, but blockading humanitarian aid before the bombings took place didn't help.

I think someone is a little fuzzy on what constitutes kicking ass.

costello
01-03-2009, 10:55 AM
I think someone is a little fuzzy on what constitutes kicking ass.

;)

Ultimate Lurker
01-03-2009, 11:10 AM
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=j9nb8k5eIaA

Taxman
01-03-2009, 11:13 AM
Israel has every right to defend itself! Hamas was firing thousands of rockets into Israel during their "cease-fire". Where was the condemnation of the Palestinians then?Possibly right next door to all of the condemnation of Israel for its many violations of agreements.


I'm not sure how you deal with the Hamas then since they will only deal in violence. If only that were true, it might make things so much simpler. Hamas also deals in social infrastructure. They have long been the primary source of Palastinian social services. Had any other interested party step up to offer alternatives to Hamas, the process of marginalizing their influence might have been able to begin.

And how much of Hamas financial resource is dirived from the Saudi royal family, which is derived from large multi-national corporations based in the United States, which is derived from American consumers?

We get to pay for both sides of the conflict, and all we get in return is a few videos.

Kedd
01-03-2009, 11:23 AM
Israel is often a bully. Their response to Hamas is often above and beyond what is required. The Israeli military ha been responsible for more civilian deaths than Hamas has. I think Israel gets away with a lot of stuff, but they do have a right to defend themselves.

Brad N.
01-03-2009, 11:25 AM
Not at all. While I can sympathize with Israel I certainly don't think they're always in the right. I don't like how they overreact to these situations. A couple of rockets land in their region and they respond by blowing a ton of shit up and killing hundreds of innocent people. They do this shit all the time and then wonder why people hate them. If anything I think Israel should be a good example to us about how might doesn't always make right and sheer physical violence is not the best response to these types of situations.

Kedd
01-03-2009, 11:39 AM
Those 100 killed with planes and bombs wouldn't be dead if those ten hadn't been killed with rockets.

There's your answer.

Death to Hamas.

Please tell me that was a sick joke...because otherwise...I just do not know what to think about you

Ray G.
01-03-2009, 11:46 AM
Please tell me that was a sick joke...because otherwise...I just do not know what to think about you

Hamas started the war.

I don't exactly agree with the actions Israel is taking here, mostly because I don't think they have a proper endgame in mind. They're not solving any problems, they're just lashing out after being pushed way too far.

But let's not get confused as to exactly where the moral responsibility for this conflict lies - with the people who broke a truce to fire rockets at schoolchildren.

Akira
01-03-2009, 11:49 AM
There's no end in sight because there really isn't any resolution that can be reached. Israel isn't going to leave the land and they'll have to kill every Palestinian to get them to leave it, and Palestinians don't want to be wiped out.

It's ironic that a people that were almost wiped out have little qualms about building refugee camps and dividing cities among racial and religious ethnicities and having a secret police that goes into people's houses at night to take them in for random questioning. Ironic and sad.

Magneto was right indeed.

Ashwin Pande
01-03-2009, 11:54 AM
Hamas started the war.

I don't exactly agree with the actions Israel is taking here, mostly because I don't think they have a proper endgame in mind. They're not solving any problems, they're just lashing out after being pushed way too far.

But let's not get confused as to exactly where the moral responsibility for this conflict lies - with the people who broke a truce to fire rockets at schoolchildren.

Or y'know... with a country that kept people in filthy refugee camps, bullied them off of their land by sending settlers and soldiers to scare and terrorise them into leaving and then finally pushed them into a tiny stretch of land over which they keep strict control.

No one is morally responsible in this conflict. Israel is just as morally wrong as Hamas is and they've got bigger bombs.

Akira
01-03-2009, 11:57 AM
No one is morally responsible in this conflict. Israel is just as morally wrong as Hamas is and they've got bigger bombs.

that's the long and short of it

Brad N.
01-03-2009, 12:19 PM
Or y'know... with a country that kept people in filthy refugee camps, bullied them off of their land by sending settlers and soldiers to scare and terrorise them into leaving and then finally pushed them into a tiny stretch of land over which they keep strict control.

No one is morally responsible in this conflict. Israel is just as morally wrong as Hamas is and they've got bigger bombs.

Not to mention that despite Israel's constant whining about Iran and them wanting to wipe Israel off the map they want to do the exact same thing to the Palestinians. Over the years I've come to the realization that Israel does not want peace and is in no way interested in hearing out what the Palestinians want or comprimise or any of that. They want them all wiped out or if only because it's a better PR move they wish they'd all just leave and live in Jordan. It always seems to me that Israel's reactions are less about retaliation and more about flexing their muscles whenever they have a chance.

bachman
01-03-2009, 12:38 PM
Not at all. While I can sympathize with Israel I certainly don't think they're always in the right. I don't like how they overreact to these situations. A couple of rockets land in their region and they respond by blowing a ton of shit up and killing hundreds of innocent people. They do this shit all the time and then wonder why people hate them. If anything I think Israel should be a good example to us about how might doesn't always make right and sheer physical violence is not the best response to these types of situations.

What do you suggest Israel do when they are attacked?

Brad N.
01-03-2009, 12:45 PM
What do you suggest Israel do when they are attacked?

Nothing. I propose they sit there and take it. That is ALWAYS the question asked when someone suggests Israel might be overdoing it and it gets old. I dunno, maybe making an actual effort at peace for starters? Maybe not thinking that one Jewish life is worth more than hundreds of Palestinians? In order to have real peace there needs to be a fundamental difference in the way both parties approach things and while Hamas isn't exactly innocent here I don't see Israel comprimising on anything ever.

Ray G.
01-03-2009, 12:49 PM
Nothing. I propose they sit there and take it. That is ALWAYS the question asked when someone suggests Israel might be overdoing it and it gets old. I dunno, maybe making an actual effort at peace for starters? Maybe not thinking that one Jewish life is worth more than hundreds of Palestinians? In order to have real peace there needs to be a fundamental difference in the way both parties approach things and while Hamas isn't exactly innocent here I don't see Israel comprimising on anything ever.

What the hell do you call the Oslo accords?

The Palestinians need to start realizing that they're not pushing Israel into the sea, and they're not driving the Jews from Jerusalem. None of the negotiations have been reality-based. What kind of serious effort at peace have the Palestinians made?

TheKraken
01-03-2009, 12:50 PM
I wouldn't call Israel the bad guy, but when you kill 40 people for every one you lose, you don't get to be the good guy, either.

JoeE
01-03-2009, 12:54 PM
nothing. I propose they sit there and take it. That is always the question asked when someone suggests israel might be overdoing it and it gets old. i dunno, maybe making an actual effort at peace for starters? maybe not thinking that one jewish life is worth more than hundreds of palestinians? In order to have real peace there needs to be a fundamental difference in the way both parties approach things and while hamas isn't exactly innocent here i don't see israel comprimising on anything ever.

Hamas does not want peace.

Israel wants peace, but on their terms (which are admittedly enormously unfair to the Palestinians). Hamas wants no part of it.

Brad N.
01-03-2009, 01:08 PM
Hamas does not want peace.

Israel wants peace, but on their terms (which are admittedly enormously unfair to the Palestinians). Hamas wants no part of it.

I didn't say anything about Hamas. I never said they wanted peace either, but Israel is like the elder, more respected big brother and they are starting to look like the kid that beats the snot out of that little brother every time he peaks at his playboys or looks at his baseball cards. Granted, bad analogy, but Hamas and Israel are worlds apart and there comes a time for Israel to be the bigger person and solve this problem in a way other than blowing shit up all the time.

bachman
01-03-2009, 01:13 PM
Nothing. I propose they sit there and take it.

Well unfortunately, in the real world, when a country is attacked they must retaliate.

AmirLehman
01-03-2009, 01:22 PM
Israel has no right to even be there. They've been starting shit since 1948, because somebody thought after the holocaust the jews needed a present to make them feel better.
They weren't there for ages. Then they decide to come back and shove all the Palestinians out of the country because they took a 2000 year vacation. Thats like the Native-Americans getting weapons from china and bombing all of the other people in the U.S.
The Israeli government kills Palestineans like they're flies. Theres no regard for human life whatsoever on their end.
Hamas is terrible, but the Israeli goverment is 100 times worse.

Doc Randy
01-03-2009, 02:08 PM
Well unfortunately, in the real world, when a country is attacked they must retaliate.

Doesn't that go both ways?

Many are saying Israel has the right to defend itself, but don't the Palestinians as well? There is no "they fired first" in the 60 year history of conflict in modern Palestine and Israel.

Here is another question:
Do the Palestinians have the right to pursue independence and sovereignty through military means?

Brad N.
01-03-2009, 02:41 PM
Well unfortunately, in the real world, when a country is attacked they must retaliate.

I was being facetious.

Thommy Melanson
01-03-2009, 02:55 PM
This won't end well.

That goes for Gaza, and this thread.

Jason California
01-03-2009, 03:02 PM
We should have incorporated the Jews into the US after WWII.

RebootedCorpse
01-03-2009, 03:04 PM
We should have incorporated the Jews into the US after WWII.

Texas would have been the best place, IMO. But I guess that's not really considered Holy Land...

Joe Kalicki
01-03-2009, 03:06 PM
They could have made part of Germany into Israel.

bartleby
01-03-2009, 03:07 PM
Texas would have been the best place, IMO. But I guess that's not really considered Holy Land...

It depends on who you ask.

BENDIS!
01-03-2009, 03:08 PM
Not to mention that despite Israel's constant whining about Iran and them wanting to wipe Israel off the map they want to do the exact same thing to the Palestinians. Over the years I've come to the realization that Israel does not want peace and is in no way interested in hearing out what the Palestinians want or comprimise or any of that. They want them all wiped out or if only because it's a better PR move they wish they'd all just leave and live in Jordan. It always seems to me that Israel's reactions are less about retaliation and more about flexing their muscles whenever they have a chance.

reading a book, any book, on the subject would do you well. it would help form your realizations from things other than what you may have found in your own ass.

KingMob
01-03-2009, 03:12 PM
reading a book, any book, on the subject would do you well. it would help form your realizations from things other than what you may have found in your own ass.

what book would you recommend?

bartleby
01-03-2009, 03:15 PM
what book would you recommend?

ultimate spider-man on sale now :)

Brian Defferding
01-03-2009, 03:20 PM
99 times out of 100, America should be in support of no one else but itself. We really need to be a nation to which our government minds its own business.

Jason California
01-03-2009, 03:26 PM
Texas would have been the best place, IMO. But I guess that's not really considered Holy Land...

Had they been told "you can come to the US or kee doing what you've done for the last couple thousand years" I am pretty sure it all would have worked out fine.

natalie
01-03-2009, 03:28 PM
what book would you recommend?

I had to rethink my opinion after reading Joe Sacco's Palestine.

Jason California
01-03-2009, 03:32 PM
99 times out of 100, America should be in support of no one else but itself. We really need to be a nation to which our government minds its own business.

That would be just great.

Joe Kalicki
01-03-2009, 03:35 PM
what book would you recommend?

Jew Avengers.

CougarTrace
01-03-2009, 03:49 PM
Texas would have been the best place, IMO. But I guess that's not really considered Holy Land...

it's the friendliest state so all would be welcome

bartleby
01-03-2009, 03:52 PM
it's the friendliest state so all would be welcome

http://606studios.com/bendisboard/showthread.php?p=5423961

Brian Defferding
01-03-2009, 03:56 PM
That would be just great.

Our government is still working on Iraq, which is not finished yet; we've got Afghanistan, Iran and Pakistan on Obama's mind; the middle east is still (and will continue to be) a powder keg; expressing support for Israel simply fuels the hatred of the radicals out there. And our involvement in the middle east is financially draining Uncle Sam's budget. I wish America would stop its ridiculous pattern of taking sides in international conflict.

CougarTrace
01-03-2009, 04:08 PM
http://606studios.com/bendisboard/showthread.php?p=5423961

just obey the laws and you are golden :)

Artie Pink
01-03-2009, 04:16 PM
We should have incorporated the Jews into the US after WWII.

Anyone read Michael Chabon's The Yiddish Policemans Union? The Jews move to Alaska. It's better than it sounds!

natalie
01-03-2009, 04:22 PM
Anyone read Michael Chabon's The Yiddish Policemans Union? The Jews move to Alaska. It's better than it sounds!

Ha, I started it but only made it thorugh about fifty pages. I'll try it again in a few months.

Brad N.
01-03-2009, 04:38 PM
reading a book, any book, on the subject would do you well. it would help form your realizations from things other than what you may have found in your own ass.


:surrend:

This is why a single post can be so deceptive. Aside from the fact that I have relatives in Tel Aviv and a historian uncle who specializes in WWII and Jewish history I like to think I generally have a pretty decent grasp on the situation. I've never said that Israel is in the wrong or that they are evil or whatever, in this 60 year conflict there is plenty of blame to go around. I just see a lot of overkill responses in recent years where douchebags from Hamas kill a few Israelis and in response Israel bombs the fuck out of the Palestinians, killing hundreds. If there's anything history teaches us it's that this is no way to win a war. All they're doing is breeding more and more hatred from Arab countries.

I'm not saying Israel has to give up the world and I'm certainly no foreign policy expert but there has to be a better way than this and to claim that Israel is innocent is silly. That's more the point I'm trying to make, that the blurbs like "Hamas launched rockets at Israeli schoolkids so Israel responded the best they could. It's a war, and war is ugly" don't really tell the whole story. I support Israel. I value them as our ally, but I think the world would benefit greatly from a more peaceful resolution.

WillieLee
01-03-2009, 04:45 PM
:surrend:

This is why a single post can be so deceptive. Aside from the fact that I have relatives in Tel Aviv and a historian uncle who specializes in WWII and Jewish history I like to think I generally have a pretty decent grasp on the situation. I've never said that Israel is in the wrong or that they are evil or whatever, in this 60 year conflict there is plenty of blame to go around. I just see a lot of overkill responses in recent years where douchebags from Hamas kill a few Israelis and in response Israel bombs the fuck out of the Palestinians, killing hundreds. If there's anything history teaches us it's that this is no way to win a war. All they're doing is breeding more and more hatred from Arab countries.

I'm not saying Israel has to give up the world and I'm certainly no foreign policy expert but there has to be a better way than this and to claim that Israel is innocent is silly. That's more the point I'm trying to make, that the blurbs like "Hamas launched rockets at Israeli schoolkids so Israel responded the best they could. It's a war, and war is ugly" don't really tell the whole story. I support Israel. I value them as our ally, but I think the world would benefit greatly from a more peaceful resolution.

Pssst.


They're all rat-ass crazy

KingMob
01-03-2009, 04:47 PM
:surrend:

This is why a single post can be so deceptive. Aside from the fact that I have relatives in Tel Aviv and a historian uncle who specializes in WWII and Jewish history I like to think I generally have a pretty decent grasp on the situation. I've never said that Israel is in the wrong or that they are evil or whatever, in this 60 year conflict there is plenty of blame to go around. I just see a lot of overkill responses in recent years where douchebags from Hamas kill a few Israelis and in response Israel bombs the fuck out of the Palestinians, killing hundreds. If there's anything history teaches us it's that this is no way to win a war. All they're doing is breeding more and more hatred from Arab countries.

I'm not saying Israel has to give up the world and I'm certainly no foreign policy expert but there has to be a better way than this and to claim that Israel is innocent is silly. That's more the point I'm trying to make, that the blurbs like "Hamas launched rockets at Israeli schoolkids so Israel responded the best they could. It's a war, and war is ugly" don't really tell the whole story. I support Israel. I value them as our ally, but I think the world would benefit greatly from a more peaceful resolution.

what book would you recommend?

William Joseph Dunn
01-03-2009, 05:24 PM
what book would you recommend?


without jumping into this fray, I would suggest this book by Edward Said:

http://www.amazon.com/Question-Palestine-Edward-W-Said/dp/0679739882/ref=pd_bbs_sr_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231035806&sr=8-5

edit: here's a lecture if you're not sure you want to invest the time with one of his books:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6984902441221936589&ei=BB5gSd6UHqO6qAOCqMXFDA&q=Edward+Said&hl=en

.

Fusion
01-03-2009, 05:30 PM
Both Israel and Hamas piss me off to be honest on the handling of this situation but US foreign policy of seemingly taking one side over the other is nothing but gas on the fucking fire.

Brad N.
01-03-2009, 05:32 PM
what book would you recommend?

This was good...

http://www.amazon.com/History-Israeli-Palestinian-Conflict-Indiana-Islamic/dp/0253208734

silverboy
01-03-2009, 05:33 PM
Nope.

Ashwin Pande
01-03-2009, 05:35 PM
I had to rethink my opinion after reading Joe Sacco's Palestine.

Yeah, same here. It really shows you how fucked up the Israeli Government and Secret Police are and how little they value the lives and rights of the Palestinians.

Yeah someone will say Hamas and other Palestinian groups don't value Israeli lives either but Israel is supposed to be the one with more power in the region and it should use that power more responsibly than it does. A corpse for an eye has never worked. It really is sad to me that after all they went through in Europe all it seems they learnt was how to oppress others better.

Brad N.
01-03-2009, 05:36 PM
Yeah, same here. It really shows you how fucked up the Israeli Government and Secret Police are and how little they value the lives and rights of the Palestinians.

Yeah someone will say Hamas and other Palestinian groups don't value Israeli lives either but Israel is supposed to be the one with more power in the region and it should use that power more responsibly than it does. A corpse for an eye has never worked. It really is sad to me that after all they went through in Europe all it seems they learnt was how to oppress others better.

uh-oh. :scared:

Josh!
01-03-2009, 05:44 PM
Anyone read Michael Chabon's The Yiddish Policemans Union? The Jews move to Alaska. It's better than it sounds!

A better question is if anyone finished Chabon's book (seriously. I know about 30 people who started it but none finished it).

I loved the book, but the ending is a pretty bleak situation too.

Religious Jewish terrorists blow up the Dome of the Rock and Jews start dancing in the streets, for those who don't care to read the book.

As for me, answering this thread, yup. Bigby Wolf was right.

Ray G.
01-03-2009, 05:45 PM
I think it's also important to view the conflict in terms of the entire region.

The Palestinians have been treated like shit and abused, not by Israel, but by the entire Arab region. They're kept in refugee camps, used as human shields by terror groups, and kept oppressed in Jordan, where they're - get this - 80% of the population! Jordan was originally part of Palestine under British rule, but is ruled by a small sect called the Hashemites that has put down Palestinian revolts rather brutally in the past.

The other Arab states have had ample opportunities to make life easier for the Palestinians. They've declined, because they know they're a great propaganda tool to aid them in their quest to wipe Israel off the map.

The Palestinians aren't David against Goliath. They're Goliath's human shield.

CougarTrace
01-03-2009, 05:50 PM
Yeah, same here. It really shows you how fucked up the Israeli Government and Secret Police are and how little they value the lives and rights of the Palestinians.

Yeah someone will say Hamas and other Palestinian groups don't value Israeli lives either but Israel is supposed to be the one with more power in the region and it should use that power more responsibly than it does. A corpse for an eye has never worked. It really is sad to me that after all they went through in Europe all it seems they learnt was how to oppress others better.

The Hamas don't value any one's lives but their own.

and the bolded part makes me sad you even typed that

Ashwin Pande
01-03-2009, 05:50 PM
I think it's also important to view the conflict in terms of the entire region.

The Palestinians have been treated like shit and abused, not by Israel, but by the entire Arab region. They're kept in refugee camps, used as human shields by terror groups, and kept oppressed in Jordan, where they're - get this - 80% of the population! Jordan was originally part of Palestine under British rule, but is ruled by a small sect called the Hashemites that has put down Palestinian revolts rather brutally in the past.

The other Arab states have had ample opportunities to make life easier for the Palestinians. They've declined, because they know they're a great propaganda tool to aid them in their quest to wipe Israel off the map.

The Palestinians aren't David against Goliath. They're Goliath's human shield.

Yeah this is true. The other Arab countries hate Palestinians but they hate the Jews more and they wont take the Palestinians because they need them in Israel so they can keep hating on the Jews.

Ashwin Pande
01-03-2009, 05:55 PM
The Hamas don't value any one's lives but their own.

and the bolded part makes me sad you even typed that

There's this thing I read somewhere. I don't remember who said it, but I think it went something like "The holocaust made the Jewish people cold. It made them more insecure about themselves and their existence and it made them hard."

I'm not saying that Israel is the villain in this scenario. Both sides are in the wrong. What I'm saying is that it's sad to see a Government made up of people descended from holocaust survivors treat anyone else as less than human. That's what I'm saying. They became harder and colder and yeah, they needed to do that to survive in a region full of people who want to kill them but it is still sad.

Taxman
01-03-2009, 05:57 PM
and the bolded part makes me sad you even typed thatCome on now, Trace. Don't pick on the Euros.

Our Mideast foreign policy is somewhat like our Cuban foreign policy. It has gone largely unchanged for decades and failed to yield a desirable result.

xyzzy
01-03-2009, 05:59 PM
I think it's also important to view the conflict in terms of the entire region.

The Palestinians have been treated like shit and abused, not by Israel, but by the entire Arab region. They're kept in refugee camps, used as human shields by terror groups, and kept oppressed in Jordan, where they're - get this - 80% of the population! Jordan was originally part of Palestine under British rule, but is ruled by a small sect called the Hashemites that has put down Palestinian revolts rather brutally in the past.

The other Arab states have had ample opportunities to make life easier for the Palestinians. They've declined, because they know they're a great propaganda tool to aid them in their quest to wipe Israel off the map.

The Palestinians aren't David against Goliath. They're Goliath's human shield.

So, it's okay to kill them?

CougarTrace
01-03-2009, 06:00 PM
Come on now, Trace. Don't pick on the Euros.

Our Mideast foreign policy is somewhat like our Cuban foreign policy. It has gone largely unchanged for decades and failed to yield a desirable result.

Cuba, please.

And I wouldn't say that about the Middle East. We have made strides in certain areas while others that like to hide and play to terrorist we don't. Mr. Obama won't change anything here. He will be a big supporter in Israel in all this. Well, he's played both sides on this so who knows.

EdNEMO
01-03-2009, 06:50 PM
Here is a question for everyone. If Native Americans banded together and declared war on the US. Who would you support?

Say they come forward and told the US government that there would be war unless the western half of the US was given to them to be ruled by tribal law and fully seperated from the US. And if this was not granted to them, they would declare war.

Suddenly it's up close and personal for everyone in the US. I bet most everyone here feels that the Native Americans were screwed pretty bad. BUT who here would support them? People are going to either have to move or become citizens of the new United Native American lands.

And do you blame them for using nuclear weapons to attack military and government facilities, even though it will obviously hit a lot of civilians as well?

Everyone has their reasons, same as the Palestinians and Israelies. You can disagree with the way things happen and disagree with methods, but in the end you have to pick a side.

99% of the people on this board are not in the middle of that conflict. Nor are they in the China/Tibet conflict. Or even Greenpeace and Whalers. When you are in the middle of it you have to choose a side. And talking and feeling bad about it aren't going to cut it. You have to be ready to fight for your beliefs and for your side. And if you are a concientious objector, that's fine. Leave, but keep your opinions to yourself.

Rant over, and I feel much better, please continue.

JimboX
01-03-2009, 06:53 PM
So, it's okay to kill them?

The difference is Hamas blindly shoots these rockets into Israel. They don't care who they kill as long as it's Jews. Israel strikes at official Hamas targets. Their offices, their leader's homes, their rocket launchers etc.
Israel doesn't strike at civilians on purpose. The reason civilians get killed is because Hamas very cowardly hides in hospitals, mosques and behind their families so that when civilians are killed they can parade the dead bodies through the streets and in front of the cameras. It makes for good PR for them.

If the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world would recognize Israel's right to exist and leave them alone, they would live in peace. But they continue to hate Israel more than they love life.

JoeE
01-03-2009, 07:09 PM
We should have incorporated the Jews into the US after WWII.

This was proposed. No one was willing to take them.

hotdogdownahallway
01-03-2009, 07:11 PM
Here is a question for everyone. If Native Americans banded together and declared war on the US. Who would you support?

Say they come forward and told the US government that there would be war unless the western half of the US was given to them to be ruled by tribal law and fully seperated from the US. And if this was not granted to them, they would declare war.

Suddenly it's up close and personal for everyone in the US. I bet most everyone here feels that the Native Americans were screwed pretty bad. BUT who here would support them? People are going to either have to move or become citizens of the new United Native American lands.

And do you blame them for using nuclear weapons to attack military and government facilities, even though it will obviously hit a lot of civilians as well?

Everyone has their reasons, same as the Palestinians and Israelies. You can disagree with the way things happen and disagree with methods, but in the end you have to pick a side.

99% of the people on this board are not in the middle of that conflict. Nor are they in the China/Tibet conflict. Or even Greenpeace and Whalers. When you are in the middle of it you have to choose a side. And talking and feeling bad about it aren't going to cut it. You have to be ready to fight for your beliefs and for your side. And if you are a concientious objector, that's fine. Leave, but keep your opinions to yourself.

Rant over, and I feel much better, please continue.

That's why I didn't want to bring in history as part of arguments. The British essentially screwed the Palestinians with the Balfour Declaration that was incorporated into the San Remo Agreement.

What is done is done. Israel exists and has a right to exist, but as a legitimate state they have a responsibility to ensure that all their peoples have safety and opportunities to live a better life (Palestinians included). Not keep them in squalor and perpetual refugee status.

It is disheartening that it seems some can't separate Palestinian from Hamas. I'm sure there are those in the Palestinian population who are weary and want peace.

Doc Randy
01-03-2009, 07:23 PM
If the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world would recognize Israel's right to exist and leave them alone, they would live in peace.

The corollary to this is that if the Palestinians either had their own viable, contiguous, sovereign, and independent state or full integration into Israeli society with equal rights, privileges, and opportunity, then the Arab world would hate Israel less.

The simple fact is that Israel will not grant the Palestinians a viable, contiguous, sovereign, and independent state, nor will they fully integrate the Palestinians for fear of a demographic shift.

As has been explained before, there are three things most in Israel want, but only two of which are possible:
* A territory containing the Gaza Strip and the West Bank (
* Democracy
* Jewish State

Until Israel can figure out which of those three items to let go of, then we will have perpetual conflict.

Taxman
01-03-2009, 07:26 PM
This was proposed. No one was willing to take them.They should have just annexed part of Utah.

BENDIS!
01-03-2009, 07:30 PM
The corollary to this is that if the Palestinians either had their own viable, contiguous, sovereign, and independent state or full integration into Israeli society with equal rights, privileges, and opportunity, then the Arab world would hate Israel less.

The simple fact is that Israel will not grant the Palestinians a viable, contiguous, sovereign, and independent state, nor will they fully integrate the Palestinians for fear of a demographic shift.

As has been explained before, there are three things most in Israel want, but only two of which are possible:
* A territory containing the Gaza Strip and the West Bank (
* Democracy
* Jewish State

Until Israel can figure out which of those three items to let go of, then we will have perpetual conflict.

we? we who? you live in a utopia of ideas and culture. they live in hell.

i wish you guys would go live there for a week so you'd shut up with this. you guys are talking in the most simplistic talk radio terms.

Ben
01-03-2009, 07:33 PM
we? we who? you live in a utopia of ideas and culture. they live in hell.

i wish you guys would go live there for a week so you'd shut up with this. you guys are talking in the most simplistic talk radio terms.I don't really understand your point with this. There's a difference between trying to understand why people do what they do and trying to understand what they could do to improve their situation. You seem to be speaking to the former, while Randy's speaking to the latter. So your post isn't really a counter-point to anything. Am I wrong?

Taxman
01-03-2009, 07:34 PM
you guys are talking in the most simplistic talk radio terms.Welcome to the discussion forum of Brian Michael Bendis.

hotdogdownahallway
01-03-2009, 07:39 PM
Welcome to the discussion forum of Brian Michael Bendis.

We are his legacy, sad, isn't it?

/(. . )/
01-03-2009, 07:41 PM
No, I cannot support it. I'm not there, I don't know first hand what's going on.. and maybe I read too much Spider-man, but I always that that "good guys" should not not kill civilians to get to the "bad guys."

To me, Israel's aggression has too much emotion. I am Jewish and am sick about talking about this with my family. It's always "they they they they they." Do people really see this in such black and white terms? Why can't we admit our side's fault as well. If we cannot do that, then we will never have peace.

BENDIS!
01-03-2009, 07:44 PM
I don't really understand your point with this. There's a difference between trying to understand why people do what they do and trying to understand what they could do to improve their situation. You seem to be speaking to the former, while Randy's speaking to the latter. So your post isn't really a counter-point to anything. Am I wrong?

first of all there's a real underbelly of anti semitism attached to the anti isreal posts. sorry, but its true. and it skeeves me and you need to look into what exactly that is about.

the rest is just ignorance and/ or repeating something you heard on a talk show- which to me is the same thing. there's no thought to it. you're just babbling.

seriously, you care so much as to post here, go do some reading. go find out the history of the region. go find out how the fear of a 9/11 lives there every second of every day. not in one big attack, but in little horrible moments of horror against the people of isreal. you tell me how much of this shit you'd take?

Ray G.
01-03-2009, 07:47 PM
The one thing that always strikes me about the hard and fast condemnation of Israel - why are people not so angry about what happens in Zimbabwe, or Georgia, or Sudan?

Where are the outraged street protests? Where are the horrified internet communities? I hear over and over again that "Israel's supposed to be better". But that's kind of a bass-ackwards way of addressing things, isn't it? Most people wouldn't argue that Israel is worse than what's going on in any of those places (and if they are, they're likely too far gone to talk with), so why use the excuse of a higher standard to zero in on Israel? It just doesn't make much sense. I'm not talking really about this board, but more about the nasty anti-Israel underbelly that seems to crawl out whenever this conflict flares up.

BENDIS!
01-03-2009, 07:49 PM
The one thing that always strikes me about the hard and fast condemnation of Israel - why are people not so angry about what happens in Zimbabwe, or Georgia, or Sudan?

Where are the outraged street protests? Where are the horrified internet communities? I hear over and over again that "Israel's supposed to be better". But that's kind of a bass-ackwards way of addressing things, isn't it? Most people wouldn't argue that Israel is worse than what's going on in any of those places (and if they are, they're likely too far gone to talk with), so why use the excuse of a higher standard to zero in on Israel? It just doesn't make much sense. I'm not talking really about this board, but more about the nasty anti-Israel underbelly that seems to crawl out whenever this conflict flares up.

exactly.

GrandeMaestro Fünke
01-03-2009, 07:51 PM
It's a war, Israel's more in the right than the other side (mainly because they accidentally kill civilians, as opposed to deliberately), and only one side had celebrations on 9/11.

That's about the size of it.

*insert Ben's smiley sig. *

That's a gross oversimplification of the situation and doesn't make what Israel is doing right in any manner.

WillieLee
01-03-2009, 07:51 PM
The corollary to this is that if the Palestinians either had their own viable, contiguous, sovereign, and independent state or full integration into Israeli society with equal rights, privileges, and opportunity, then the Arab world would hate Israel less.



No they wouldn't.

xyzzy
01-03-2009, 07:53 PM
The one thing that always strikes me about the hard and fast condemnation of Israel - why are people not so angry about what happens in Zimbabwe, or Georgia, or Sudan?

Where are the outraged street protests? Where are the horrified internet communities? I hear over and over again that "Israel's supposed to be better". But that's kind of a bass-ackwards way of addressing things, isn't it? Most people wouldn't argue that Israel is worse than what's going on in any of those places (and if they are, they're likely too far gone to talk with), so why use the excuse of a higher standard to zero in on Israel? It just doesn't make much sense. I'm not talking really about this board, but more about the nasty anti-Israel underbelly that seems to crawl out whenever this conflict flares up.

I'm not as informed about foreign affairs as I should be, but does the U.S. staunchly support what's happening in those other regions as it does with Israel's actions?

Ray G.
01-03-2009, 07:53 PM
*insert Ben's smiley sig. *

That's a gross oversimplification of the situation and doesn't make what Israel is doing right in any manner.

I elaborated throughout the thread.

This is a deeply personal issue, though, so debating in on the internet usually leads nowhere.

BENDIS!
01-03-2009, 07:56 PM
No they wouldn't.

exactly.

hotdogdownahallway
01-03-2009, 07:57 PM
The one thing that always strikes me about the hard and fast condemnation of Israel - why are people not so angry about what happens in Zimbabwe, or Georgia, or Sudan?

Where are the outraged street protests? Where are the horrified internet communities? I hear over and over again that "Israel's supposed to be better". But that's kind of a bass-ackwards way of addressing things, isn't it? Most people wouldn't argue that Israel is worse than what's going on in any of those places (and if they are, they're likely too far gone to talk with), so why use the excuse of a higher standard to zero in on Israel? It just doesn't make much sense. I'm not talking really about this board, but more about the nasty anti-Israel underbelly that seems to crawl out whenever this conflict flares up.

Well shouldn't they get some kind of scrutiny given the amount of aid we give them annually?

db8coach
01-03-2009, 07:58 PM
I think that we actually need to have a policy of non interference with both groups. The Palestenians have just as much right to "protect" what they see as "their land" as any other country.

Nick Spencer
01-03-2009, 07:58 PM
I have never been swayed by the arguments of either side. I don't think the Israelis are really sincere about letting the Palestinians have their own state and move out of the third world, and I never believe the Palestinians are sincere about stopping the terrorist attacks.

I have a lot of sympathy for the innocent people caught in the middle, but I also get fed up with both sides constantly electing hard liners.

Over the last twenty years, I've watched both sides use every opportunity for peace to sideswipe the other, which leads me to believe there are just vested interests for both that would just prefer for the fighting to continue, or at least are unwilling to make any sort of friendly gesture or compromise.

db8coach
01-03-2009, 08:00 PM
Haven't these guys been fighting since the dawn of time? What makes us think we can stop them now?

Nick Spencer
01-03-2009, 08:02 PM
Haven't these guys been fighting since the dawn of time? What makes us think we can stop them now?

I think 99 percent of it comes from both sides believing they are the "good guys." Instead of looking at it rationally, it becomes a good vs. evil thing, sometimes with religious overtones, and both sides just gloss over the amazingly shitty stuff they've done or just respond with "well, look what THEY did."

Captain Nate
01-03-2009, 08:06 PM
100% NOT TRUE. False. Inaccurate. BS.

Israel NEVER gave complete sovereign control of Gaza to the Palestinians.

You're right—Israel wields all sorts of power against them without having any troops in the territory. :roll: If this is what Israel gets without ceding full control of the Palestinian territories, let's just wait to see what wonderful ways to kill Israeli's they come up with when they're a fully sovereign nation.

Ashwin Pande
01-03-2009, 08:08 PM
first of all there's a real underbelly of anti semitism attached to the anti isreal posts. sorry, but its true. and it skeeves me and you need to look into what exactly that is about.

the rest is just ignorance and/ or repeating something you heard on a talk show- which to me is the same thing. there's no thought to it. you're just babbling.

seriously, you care so much as to post here, go do some reading. go find out the history of the region. go find out how the fear of a 9/11 lives there every second of every day. not in one big attack, but in little horrible moments of horror against the people of isreal. you tell me how much of this shit you'd take?

I disagree that the anti Israel posts have an underbelly of anti-semitism. I don't think anyone here hates Jews, people are just being critical of the actions of the Government of Israel, which isn't mutually inclusive unless you want it to be. Anyone criticizing Israel shouldn't automatically be branded an anti-semite.

And India has had several 9/11 attacks in the last few years. We take it. We know the attacks come from terrorists being trained in Pakistan but we don't go and blow the fuck out of them. We take it because we know the other option would be outright disaster. We take it and try to make it harder for it to happen again by improving our security internally and try to put more political and diplomatic pressure on Pakistan.

In the 80s Israel wanted to attack Pakistan nuclear installations to make sure they never make an "Islamic bomb." They called India up and said that they were going to do this but they needed to land and refuel in India to do it. India refused. We said no. We decided to not help another nation attack Pakistan even when we knew it would help us out in the future. We've taken a multitude of terrorist attacks since then and have had only one major conflict with Pakistan since and that was when they tried to blow up our Parliament and kill all our leaders.

We've taken a lot of shit without bombing the fuck out of our aggressors.

Brad N.
01-03-2009, 08:13 PM
I disagree that the anti Israel posts have an underbelly of anti-semitism. I don't think anyone here hates Jews, people are just being critical of the actions of the Government of Israel, which isn't mutually inclusive unless you want it to be. Anyone criticizing Israel shouldn't automatically be branded an anti-semite.


This. It bothers me to no end that unless you are 100% supportive of all of Israel's policies some will brand you as Anti-Semitic. There is a massive difference between disagreeing with the policies of the government of Israel and the involvement of the United States when it comes to those policies and saying you hate Jews.

WillieLee
01-03-2009, 08:15 PM
The one thing that always strikes me about the hard and fast condemnation of Israel - why are people not so angry about what happens in Zimbabwe, or Georgia, or Sudan?

The US isn't supporting those nations like they do with Israel.



Where are the outraged street protests? Where are the horrified internet communities? I hear over and over again that "Israel's supposed to be better". But that's kind of a bass-ackwards way of addressing things, isn't it? Most people wouldn't argue that Israel is worse than what's going on in any of those places (and if they are, they're likely too far gone to talk with), so why use the excuse of a higher standard to zero in on Israel? It just doesn't make much sense. I'm not talking really about this board, but more about the nasty anti-Israel underbelly that seems to crawl out whenever this conflict flares up.

Israel is a democracy so there's always the expectation that they will approach situations in a measured and rational way. It's an unreal expectation and it's one that is done at the luxury of being outside observers. People seem to forget or downplay the fact that the Arab world wants Israel eradicated and are using the Palestinian land claims as the means. Toss in a little David vs Goliath scenario(ignoring that David was Hebrew) and you have the cries of Israel being out-of-control.

There is some concern given that Israel likes to get a little crazy at times, such as the killing of tourists in Europe that they thought were terrorists or their recent habit of shelling UN outposts and killing journalists, but I don't think these incidents vindicate the actions of the Palestinian and Arab groups.

Kedd
01-03-2009, 08:18 PM
The one thing that always strikes me about the hard and fast condemnation of Israel - why are people not so angry about what happens in Zimbabwe, or Georgia, or Sudan?

Where are the outraged street protests? Where are the horrified internet communities? I hear over and over again that "Israel's supposed to be better". But that's kind of a bass-ackwards way of addressing things, isn't it? Most people wouldn't argue that Israel is worse than what's going on in any of those places (and if they are, they're likely too far gone to talk with), so why use the excuse of a higher standard to zero in on Israel? It just doesn't make much sense. I'm not talking really about this board, but more about the nasty anti-Israel underbelly that seems to crawl out whenever this conflict flares up.

Ya know, I think it has to deal with people thinking they have a better understanding of what the conflict over there is about than we actually do. And, while I don't think most of us are consciously making anti-Israel comments, I do believe that a lot of people come down harder on Israel than they do others because there's a pretty dramatic difference in terms of number of victims from Hamas bombings and Israel retaliation. Both are a waste of lives in my opinion. But a lot of times, it seems like Israel's retaliations are a bit unfocused. So a lot of collateral damage is taken by a lot of innocent people. Israel has every right to defend itself and its people though and it's not like they're purposefully trying to kill any civilians, unlike other groups.

WillieLee
01-03-2009, 08:19 PM
This. It bothers me to no end that unless you are 100% supportive of all of Israel's policies some will brand you as Anti-Semitic. There is a massive difference between disagreeing with the policies of the government of Israel and the involvement of the United States when it comes to those policies and saying you hate Jews.

True, but I think many people downplay what Israel is up against in order to make an argument.

wes
01-03-2009, 08:24 PM
I.
And India has had several 9/11 attacks in the last few years. We take it. We know the attacks come from terrorists being trained in Pakistan but we don't go and blow the fuck out of them. We take it because we know the other option would be outright disaster. We take it and try to make it harder for it to happen again by improving our security internally and try to put more political and diplomatic pressure on Pakistan.


Your actually leaving out a lot of stuff here.

India faces threats from Maoist insurgents, and several different separatist groups. All these guys regularly engage in attacks.

Then you have your own home grown religious extremist, which come in both Hindu and Muslim flavors. Both groups constantly trying to get the average Hindu and Muslim to kill each other and for the most part they don't thankfully.

Plus, I am sure I even missed some stuff as well. India faces a lot of crazies and does remarkably well.

The only major black mark for India is Kashmir, but thats another thread. Otherwise, your largely right about India.

Captain Nate
01-03-2009, 08:29 PM
India is continually attacked by terrorists and we know that they come from Pakistan but we don't blow the fuck out of them to prove a point.

The difference is, I think, that despite the hostility between your nations, Pakistanis do not deny the right of India to exist. The mainstream political movements in the Palestinian territories do believe Israel has no right to exist, and any restraint by the Israelis is used as an opportunity to further arm and prepare for Israel's annihilation.

Hamas didn't use the last 3 years to build roads or prepare for peace, they used it illegally smuggling arms into the Gaza strip to launch as Israel while Israel did next-to-nothing in response.


I support Israel. I value them as our ally, but I think the world would benefit greatly from a more peaceful resolution.

The world would have also benefited greatly from peaceful resolutions to every conflict—but there is a cost to peace. Peace with Hitler would've meant the death of Europe's Jewry, peace with the American South would've meant a century more of Black slavery, etc.

And, short of absolute surrender, there is no peaceful solution where the opponent fails to recognize your right to even exist. That's not to say you don't continue to push for peace, I support the peace process...but my support of it has been severely shaken by the last few years. Honestly, I went from supporting a full, two-state solution to questioning whether the Palestinian people can be trusted to live in peace in a fully sovereign nation.


No, I cannot support it. I'm not there, I don't know first hand what's going on.. and maybe I read too much Spider-man, but I always that that "good guys" should not not kill civilians to get to the "bad guys.

Yeah, you do read too much Spider-Man. Because the real world cannot work like that. A nation cannot choose to allow itself to be attacked and its civilians killed because they might inadvertently strike innocence while targeting the guilty.


Well shouldn't they get some kind of scrutiny given the amount of aid we give them annually?

You DO know Israel receives that aid in exchange for making peace with Egypt, and Egypt also receives such aid?

/(. . )/
01-03-2009, 08:32 PM
I think 99 percent of it comes from both sides believing they are the "good guys." Instead of looking at it rationally, it becomes a good vs. evil thing, sometimes with religious overtones, and both sides just gloss over the amazingly shitty stuff they've done or just respond with "well, look what THEY did."

this is exactly how I see it.

Captain Nate
01-03-2009, 08:34 PM
I have a lot of sympathy for the innocent people caught in the middle, but I also get fed up with both sides constantly electing hard liners.

Israel has elected a moderate political party that has committed itself to a two-state solution, offered unilateral territorial concessions, considered the division of Jerusalem, and even opened negotiations with Syria. The Palestinians elected a terrorist organization.

So, um, I can't take serious a comment that equates both sides for "electing hard liners."

/(. . )/
01-03-2009, 08:46 PM
Yeah, you do read too much Spider-Man. Because the real world cannot work like that. A nation cannot choose to allow itself to be attacked and its civilians killed because they might inadvertently strike innocence while targeting the guilty.


Actually, I haven't read a Spider-man comic in three years :scared:


I don't like Olmert. I don't like how his party handles crisis such as Lebanon. Why not say "you have 10 days to release the soldier or we bomb you." It's a deadline and if the deadline is not met, boom. 10 days would give people the chance to evacuate and leaders a chance to discuss.

Now, I am in no way siding with Hamas. I recognize them as the democratically elected leaders of Gaza and hold them accountable for starting a war with Israel this time around.

But what is Israel trying to achieve? They said that they are not trying to topple Hamas. They are trying to stop the rocket fire. But come on, where is the sanity here? How will this mega violence stop rocket fire. It's a short term solution. Every civilian killed is going to create more people who want to destroy Israel. Israel's current operation is guaranteeing a peaceless future for the next generation.

Why don't people look at the long term goals?

hotdogdownahallway
01-03-2009, 08:48 PM
You DO know Israel receives that aid in exchange for making peace with Egypt, and Egypt also receives such aid?

Uh, Israel started to receive aid long before the Israel-Egypt peace was established.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/IB85066.pdf

Doc Randy
01-03-2009, 08:50 PM
The one thing that always strikes me about the hard and fast condemnation of Israel - why are people not so angry about what happens in Zimbabwe, or Georgia, or Sudan?

1) There is outrage and protests. It just isn't as popular or as visible.

2) The internal struggles in Zimbabwe, Georgia, and Sudan have much less affect on the livelihood of our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq.

3) We haven't been giving the dominant military powers in Zimbabwe, Georgia, and Sudan around $90 billion over the last few decades.

King of Mars
01-03-2009, 08:50 PM
This. It bothers me to no end that unless you are 100% supportive of all of Israel's policies some will brand you as Anti-Semitic. There is a massive difference between disagreeing with the policies of the government of Israel and the involvement of the United States when it comes to those policies and saying you hate Jews.Yeah, I'm not Anti-Semetic at all. Shit, my brother's wife is Jew...

Umm...well...I don't really like her all that much, so that doesn't help my case...but, honestly, I'm not Anti-Semetic. :) I don't approve of a lot of the things my own government does to fight terrorism. Does that make me anti-Christian?

Doc Randy
01-03-2009, 08:59 PM
No they wouldn't.

If all the Palestinians were fully integrated into Israeli society, and received the same education, medical, and economic opportunities as the Israelis, or if the Palestinians had the viable, sovereign, and contiguous state that Olmert and Bush recently discussed, then there would be much less fuel for the anti-Israel propagandists.

Why would the average Muslim in a place like Saudi Arabia cry for the plight of the Palestinians if the Palestinians had the highest average standard of living in the Middle East.


The simple fact is that the global war on terror is often defined as a war for the hearts and minds of the Muslim world. And the best thing for the whole world would be to take away this propaganda tool from the terrorists.

Captain Nate
01-03-2009, 08:59 PM
Uh, Israel started to receive aid long before the Israel-Egypt peace was established.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/IB85066.pdf

In far small amounts, probably no more significant than any number of cold war allies at the time.

the loner
01-03-2009, 09:01 PM
Yeah, I'm not Anti-Semetic at all. Shit, my brother's wife is Jew...

Umm...well...I don't really like her all that much, so that doesn't help my case...but, honestly, I'm not Anti-Semetic. :) I don't approve of a lot of the things my own government does to fight terrorism. Does that make me anti-Christian?

:lol: you win the thread.

CougarTrace
01-03-2009, 09:02 PM
we? we who? you live in a utopia of ideas and culture. they live in hell.

i wish you guys would go live there for a week so you'd shut up with this. you guys are talking in the most simplistic talk radio terms.

damn, this is well said.

Captain Nate
01-03-2009, 09:03 PM
Hamas moves on Fatah 'collaborators'
Jan. 4, 2009
Khaled Abu Toameh , THE JERUSALEM POST

The Hamas government has placed dozens of Fatah members under house arrest out of fear that they might exploit the current IDF operation to regain control of the Gaza Strip.

The move came amid reports that the Fatah leadership in the West Bank has instructed its followers to be ready to assume power over the Gaza Strip when and if Israel's military operation results in the removal of Hamas rule.

Fatah officials in Ramallah told The Jerusalem Post that Hamas militiamen had been assaulting many Fatah activists since the beginning of the operation last Saturday. They said at least 75 activists were shot in the legs while others had their hands broken.

Wisam Abu Jalhoum, a Fatah activist from the Jabalya refugee camp, was shot in the legs by Hamas militiamen for allegedly expressing joy over the IDF air strikes on Hamas targets.

"Hamas is very nervous, because they feel that their end is nearing," a senior Fatah official said. "They have been waging a brutal campaign against Fatah members in the Gaza Strip."

Meanwhile, sources close to Hamas revealed over the weekend that the movement had "executed" more than 35 Palestinians who were suspected of collaborating with Israel and were being held in various Hamas security installations.

The sources quoted Hamas officials as saying that the decision to kill the suspected collaborators was taken out of fear that Israel might try to rescue them during a ground offensive. The officials claimed that at least half of the victims were killed by relatives of Palestinian militiamen who were killed as a result of information passed on to Israel by the "collaborators."

Justifying the latest crackdown on Fatah, a Hamas official in Gaza City said that his government had received information according to which Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas had instructed his loyalists in the Strip to start moving toward undermining Hamas.

"We will kill them all if they try to help Israel bring down our government," the official said. "We will hang Mahmoud Abbas and [former Fatah security chief] Muhammad Dahlan in the public square if they try to enter the Gaza Strip aboard Israeli tanks."

The Hamas official said that his security forces had launched a massive "preemptive" campaign aimed at thwarting Fatah's attempts to "spread anarchy and chaos." He confirmed that many Fatah operatives had been shot in the legs over the past few days by Hamas "to make sure that they don't help Israel."

Fahmi Za'arir, a Fatah spokesman in the West Bank, accused Hamas of "executing" a number of Fatah detainees. He said the Fatah leadership knew of at least two Fatah men who were shot dead by Hamas after being released from prison. He named them as Nasser Muhana and Saher al-Silawi.

Za'arir said that several Fatah members who attended funerals of victims of the IAF strikes were severely beaten by Hamas militiamen who accused them of collaboration with Israel.

It was "shameful" that Hamas was directing its weapons and energies against its own people instead of fighting against Israel, the spokesman said.

The decision to place Fatah operatives under house arrest was issued by the much-feared "Internal Security Apparatus," which reports to the Hamas-controlled Interior Ministry in Gaza.

The order, which was delivered to the Fatah activists on Thursday, reads: "You are forbidden from leaving your home for 48 hours unless you want to attend Friday prayers. Anyone who violates the order will be punished."

xyzzy
01-03-2009, 09:03 PM
This. It bothers me to no end that unless you are 100% supportive of all of Israel's policies some will brand you as Anti-Semitic. There is a massive difference between disagreeing with the policies of the government of Israel and the involvement of the United States when it comes to those policies and saying you hate Jews.

Oh, I'm pretty sure that everybody who criticizes the Chinese government for being oppressive and for censoring information hate Chinese people and are racists.

EdNEMO
01-03-2009, 09:05 PM
While I don't like the fact that Israel sometimes incurs civilian casualties, I understand it. This is not just two militaries fighting a Stratego type war on a board, This is two warring countries. Civilians are going to be in the middle. It sucks, but that's war. The difference to me has always been one of ideals. And I am 100% athiest. I don't care if one side is Jewish or not.

But, that being said, the Palestinians seem to be the biggest tools in the world. They are the ones that broke the ceasefire. They are the ones that breed and train terrorists. I am just waiting for Israel to bomb the shit out of the Palestinians and be done with it.

Doc Randy
01-03-2009, 09:07 PM
I am just waiting for Israel to bomb the shit out of the Palestinians and be done with it.

Peace through genocide and ethnic cleansing?

EdNEMO
01-03-2009, 09:08 PM
Oh, I'm pretty sure that everybody who criticizes the Chinese government for being oppressive and for censoring information hate Chinese people and are racists.

Haha. I am definitely not anti-semintic. I'm not even anti-religious. I am anti-bothering people. Do you know how many jewish people have come to my house to bother me? 0. Want to know how many Christians?

I am at the point where if it were legal to kill religious people that trespass on your property in their effort to save you, I would have a rifle by the door and a tally over the doorjam.

Doc Randy
01-03-2009, 09:14 PM
we? we who? you live in a utopia of ideas and culture. they live in hell.

i wish you guys would go live there for a week so you'd shut up with this. you guys are talking in the most simplistic talk radio terms.

First off, it is hell for everyone over there: Jew, Arab, Palestinian, Christian, Druze, etc...

And as for the "simplistic talk radio terms" comment, what do you expect on a comic book message board? A 300 page thesis on the economic fragmentation of the West Bank's water resources?

Lighten up, Francis. This is a message board and most of the comments, by nature of the medium, will be a bit short.




first of all there's a real underbelly of anti semitism attached to the anti isreal posts. sorry, but its true. and it skeeves me and you need to look into what exactly that is about.

the rest is just ignorance and/ or repeating something you heard on a talk show- which to me is the same thing. there's no thought to it. you're just babbling.

seriously, you care so much as to post here, go do some reading. go find out the history of the region. go find out how the fear of a 9/11 lives there every second of every day. not in one big attack, but in little horrible moments of horror against the people of isreal. you tell me how much of this shit you'd take?

Are you under the impression that the people of Israel are some monolithic body of people? The fact is that there is a strong peace movement in Israel and many prominent Israelis have voiced their opposition to what they view as a perpetual conflict with no positive result.

Do you even read Haaretz? If you did, you would read plenty of liberal and moderate Jews saying many of these same "anti-semitic" comments you seem to be offended by.

As far as our thoughtless babbling, we can't all be as politically eloquent as you are, sir.

Ashwin Pande
01-03-2009, 09:16 PM
I think one of the signs of our progress as a civilization is that we are outraged by things that were commonplace even half a century ago. It's good that people criticize Israel and Palestine and this entire conflict. We should debate it and criticize it because otherwise there's no progress. Maybe we don't understand the realities of the situation as well as the people who live there but we can still be outraged by the deaths of innocent civilians on both sides.

EdNEMO
01-03-2009, 09:16 PM
Peace through genocide and ethnic cleansing?

No. An end to the war. History dictates that peace is only achieved through agreements by both parties. If you fight and win a war you end up subjucating the enemy. They become second class citizens and you end up with basically slaves. I think slavery is one of the greatest evils ever. So, the option is to get people to form an agreement but Palestine will not do so. So, what is left? If you take out their leadership and bring in new people to barter and work on agreements, great! If you are unable to do that, what do you do? You have to kill the majority and save who you can. If you win the war and have 100,000 people who plan on resisting you, you have to kill them too. It's not pretty but that's how you fight. You never leave an enemy behind you to stab you in the back.

Captain Nate
01-03-2009, 09:18 PM
The New York Times
January 4, 2009
The New Meaning of an Old Battle

By STEVEN LEE MYERS
WASHINGTON — In unleashing a series of punishing attacks in Gaza last week, Israel clearly aimed to hand Hamas a defeat from which it could not recover anytime soon.

The campaign may succeed, experts here and in Israel say, but it could also backfire. Either way, the political consequences could reverberate throughout the Middle East, all the way to Iran, and help determine the ability of President-elect Barack Obama to pursue his stated goals of calming the Middle East through diplomacy.

While Israeli leadership was not stating wider goals, there was clearly hope in the country — as tanks and troops massed late in the week — that the assault in Gaza would do more than just stop the rocket fire with which Hamas had broken a cease-fire last month. The larger hope was that subduing Hamas would delegitimize the group’s leadership in the eyes of the Palestinian people and eliminate its power to prevent a two-state solution. Already last week, it was exposing political, ethnic and sectarian divisions in the region that Israel, like the United States, had long sought to exploit.

In a highly optimistic scenario for Israel and the United States, a clear victory for Israel would make it easier for Egypt, Jordan and countries farther afield to declare common cause against Islamic militancy and its main sponsor in the region, Iran.

Then, as Martin S. Indyk, a former American ambassador to Israel, argued, an international peacekeeping force made up of Turkish and Arab troops could clear the way for a restoration of political control in Gaza by President Mahmoud Abbas, who heads the Fatah movement and is titular president of all Palestinians, but in reality is the weak leader of only the West Bank.

A two-state treaty could follow, and then perhaps peace between Israel and Syria, leaving Iran isolated behind the buffer of a newly democratic and peaceful, if not particularly friendly, Iraq.

Iran is the one country — aside from Israel — with the most at stake in the outcome. It sponsors Hamas and Hezbollah not only to torment Israel but also to spread its influence in the Arab world. A convincing defeat of Hamas would undercut that strategy, and presumably Iran’s ability to resist Western pressure in any broad bargaining — for example, over its support for terrorist groups and even its nuclear program. “It’s an ambitious scenario,” said Mr. Indyk, with a sobering caveat, “that would require things to get significantly worse before they could get better.”

But Israel’s attacks also could fail outright, and history suggests that as the more likely scenario, Middle East experts across the political spectrum said.

The strikes — and the Arab anger over scenes of death and destruction — have highlighted divisions in the Middle East that can prevent Arab nations from working with Israel.

Of course, Egypt, whose peace treaty with Israel is anathema to militants in the Middle East, kept its border to Gaza largely shut last week, and its president, Hosni Mubarak, quarreled openly with the leader of Hezbollah, the Iranian-backed militant Shiite group that now shares power in Lebanon. And at a meeting of the Arab League, Saudi Arabia’s foreign minister gently and indirectly rebuked Hamas for provoking the conflict. Those actions were in line with Israeli dreams. But the attacks also subjected the regimes in Egypt and other moderate Arab nations to blistering scorn from inflamed Arab populations.

And that widened the rifts between rulers and citizens in countries nominally allied with the United States and willing to deal with Israel. The longer this goes on, the more likely it is that regional tensions will intensify. The images of carnage could fuel new hatreds and radicalize some who felt that peace talks offer more hope than resistance.

In some ways, the Gaza attacks were reminiscent of the gamble Israel took, and largely lost, in Lebanon in 1982. It invaded to eliminate the threat of Yasir Arafat’s forces, which were then encamped on its northern border. It accomplished that goal, driving Mr. Arafat into exile in Tunis, and eventually he recognized Israel and negotiated. But in the meantime, a new and virulently anti-Israel threat was born in Lebanon in the form of Hezbollah. Israel’s northern border remained insecure, and Iran’s influence grew.

Now Mr. Abbas, already deeply mired in a rivalry with Hamas, could find himself further isolated from Palestinian sentiment the longer the Israeli assaults continue. Signs were growing last week that the fighting was emboldening Palestinian resistance, prompting Mr. Abbas to say he was prepared to walk away from the peace process President Bush began in Annapolis, Md., in 2007.

“What does he have to offer us a year after Annapolis?” Mustafa Barghouti, a doctor, independent Palestinian legislator and advocate of democracy, said of Mr. Abbas, in a telephone conversation from the West Bank. “They promised us an agreement by the end of the year. What do we have after this year?”

Dr. Barghouti, who was a minister in the short-lived unity government that followed Hamas’s victory in 2006 elections, said the only durable solution was an accommodation that included Hamas. “There are two ways to deal with Hamas,” he said. “Either confront them, which makes them more extreme, or accept them in the political process.”

That would hearten Islamic militants in Egypt and Jordan and make those countries’ leaders shiver a bit more; and it would very likely embolden Iran in its ambitions for regional leadership and insistence on a nuclear program.

Most analysts expect that some sort of negotiated cease-fire with Hamas is inevitable, since Israel seems neither willing nor able to reoccupy Gaza and replace its leadership. That, then, would leave the group with many followers in Gaza, even if its ranks are badly battered, its leaders driven underground and its formal centers of power, through which it might deliver services to its people, are destroyed by Israeli bombs. “Hamas as an institution is not really sustaining casualties,” said Ziad Asali, president of the American Task Force for Palestine. “The people of Gaza are the ones who are paying the price.”

Daniel Levy, an Israeli analyst with the New America Foundation here, said the flaw in the Israeli strategy is the belief that that people in Gaza will blame their own government, and not the Israelis, for the new wave of violence.

Israel, for its part, is determined to avoid the military and political catastrophe of its incursion in Lebanon in 2006 to squelch cross-border rocket attacks by Hezbollah not all that different from the ones by Hamas. That fight ended with a United Nations resolution and international peacekeepers but also, eventually, a rearmed Hezbollah.

“Israel believes its deterrence was lost in that war,” David Makovsky, a senior fellow at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, wrote on Wednesday, “and Israel’s current campaign against Hamas should be seen as an effort to regain that deterrence.”

One lesson Israel learned from Lebanon, he argued, was to lower expectations, depriving Hamas of the chance to declare victory simply by surviving the Israeli assault, as Hezbollah did. Israel has done that by remaining vague about its final goals. Israel also seems to have prepared better; by all appearances its forces were following a methodical campaign of strikes, even as it tried to win the propaganda war — or at least to do less badly this time, by trying to minimize civilian casualties.

Almost everyone in Washington agrees that the timing of the latest crisis had at least one benefit: It came before the inauguration of Mr. Obama on Jan. 20. Although he has expressed staunch support for Israel — at one point justifying a response to Hamas rocket attacks — he has raised expectations of a change in policy in the Middle East. The fighting has certainly pushed the Arab-Israeli conflict back to the front of a United States agenda crowded with foreign crises, from Iran to India to North Korea.

It is likely that the immediate fighting will have ended by Inauguration Day. If so, President Obama will be able to capitalize on the cease-fire to renew a push for a permanent settlement. He once suggested throwing American weight behind regional talks that would include Hamas, but that may no longer be a possibility. Mr. Bush fiercely resisted any accommodation with a group the United States and European Union classify as a terrorist organization.

“He has one advantage: that this is happening now,” said Mr. Asali of the American Task Force for Palestine. “The passionate reactions, the emotional reactions, the hatred, et cetera, et cetera, will be directed at the present administration rather than the next one. But that is a slight silver lining.”

The goal of the war is not genocide, but peace. Whether Israel could accomplish it with their leadership, I am not sure.

Jonathan Callan
01-03-2009, 09:23 PM
The one thing that always strikes me about the hard and fast condemnation of Israel - why are people not so angry about what happens in Zimbabwe, or Georgia, or Sudan?

Where are the outraged street protests? Where are the horrified internet communities? I hear over and over again that "Israel's supposed to be better". But that's kind of a bass-ackwards way of addressing things, isn't it? Most people wouldn't argue that Israel is worse than what's going on in any of those places (and if they are, they're likely too far gone to talk with), so why use the excuse of a higher standard to zero in on Israel? It just doesn't make much sense. I'm not talking really about this board, but more about the nasty anti-Israel underbelly that seems to crawl out whenever this conflict flares up.

We don't provide those nations with vast amounts of money and support, both political and military?

I genuinely recognize this as a vastly complicated situation, but we do have the right to ask certain things of Israel if we're giving them guns and cash and the promise (both implicit and explicit) of protection.

Captain Nate
01-03-2009, 09:26 PM
Israel Acts with Overwhelming Force because limited force has had no results in the past.


Israel confident in use of force
By Jeremy Bowen
BBC Middle East editor, Israel-Gaza border

Here at the border, it is a clear, starlit night. The rattle of helicopters overhead is constant.

A steady crump of explosions is coming from the far side of the border, inside the northern part of the Gaza Strip.

For civilians near the fighting, the noise and the danger must be terrifying.

Israeli troops have entered Gaza before to try to stop rocket fire - they did not succeed.

This time, after a week of air strikes, Israel believes force will work, because much more of it is being used.

The Israeli military will be concerned about casualties, but they are a very formidable and well-armed, modern force.

Its troops also know Gaza very well, having occupied the coastal territory from 1967 until September 2005.

Nevertheless, they may find it difficult when they enter the main populated areas, in which the buildings stand pretty close together. The many refugee camps are warrens of single-storey, concrete or breeze-block houses with tin roofs.

Bravado

Hamas fighters, who know Gaza better than the Israeli troops, have a belief in resistance and martyrdom.

Their objective will be to give the Israeli army the same humiliation that the Shia movement, Hezbollah, inflicted during the 2006 war in Lebanon.

For all their bravado, Hamas are unlikely to be as formidable as Hezbollah.

The rocky, hill terrain of south Lebanon was not good for Israel's armour. Gaza, on the other hand, is flat and sandy.

Hamas is said to have smuggled weapons in through tunnels under the border Egypt, but it is doubtful that it has the arsenal which Hezbollah acquired.

Even so, they will be the latest heroes to those people across the Islamic world who have latched onto ideology of resistance to Israel and its American allies, which has become one of the region's most potent ideas.

For Hamas, the definition of victory will be that they can they fight on at the end of all this; for Israel it will be that they can they stop the rocket fire from Gaza.

King of Mars
01-03-2009, 09:33 PM
Someone please stop Captain Nate's Israeli style copy and paste barrage.

THAT'S NOT THE ANSWER!!!

:)

Doc Randy
01-03-2009, 09:35 PM
Nate,

As I said earlier, NOBODY here sides with Hamas. Nobody thinks Hamas is good for the Palestinians.

My main concern is whether or not these current military actions will actually hurt or help Hamas and their efforts. Are Israel's current actions going to help bring about peace? Is this the right course of action? These questions are being asked all over the world and all throughout Israel as we speak.

Nick Spencer
01-03-2009, 09:41 PM
Nate,

As I said earlier, NOBODY here sides with Hamas. Nobody thinks Hamas is good for the Palestinians.

My main concern is whether or not these current military actions will actually hurt or help Hamas and their efforts. Are Israel's current actions going to help bring about peace? Is this the right course of action? These questions are being asked all over the world and all throughout Israel as we speak.

Yeah, this is what I keep thinking. Strategically, it seems to me like Hamas has probably only gotten a stronger hold in the region as a result of this. Which is perverse and appalling, but true nonetheless.

hotdogdownahallway
01-03-2009, 09:54 PM
In far small amounts, probably no more significant than any number of cold war allies at the time.

I'm just pointing to your statement that you said aid was given for them to make peace when that aid was there long before.

XXXenophile
01-03-2009, 10:26 PM
Well unfortunately, in the real world, when a country is attacked they must retaliate.

Not to mention the last time we took it, 6 million of us died.

There's a reason why we say "Never Again."

XXXenophile
01-03-2009, 10:36 PM
Yeah, same here. It really shows you how fucked up the Israeli Government and Secret Police are and how little they value the lives and rights of the Palestinians.

Yeah someone will say Hamas and other Palestinian groups don't value Israeli lives either but Israel is supposed to be the one with more power in the region and it should use that power more responsibly than it does. A corpse for an eye has never worked. It really is sad to me that after all they went through in Europe all it seems they learnt was how to oppress others better.

Remember what you said when your governemnt asks for help from Israel against Pakistan.

What did we learn from what we went through in Europe? Simple:

We will never let that happen again and we will do whatever we have to to make sure it doesn't.

Whether it puts us in the wrong or the right we are constantly fighting for our survival surrounded by countries that want to see nothing from us but our utter destruction and we will not give them the satisfaction.

And I'm not someone who usually agrees with what Israel does every time either but I'll never disagree over WHY they're doing it.

This particular time, Hamas started it. Which is why the US is throwing their word to Israel.

If you remember the last time there was conflict, which Israel started, the US gave their word to Hamas. Same with the UN.

XXXenophile
01-03-2009, 10:43 PM
The one thing that always strikes me about the hard and fast condemnation of Israel - why are people not so angry about what happens in Zimbabwe, or Georgia, or Sudan?

Where are the outraged street protests? Where are the horrified internet communities? I hear over and over again that "Israel's supposed to be better". But that's kind of a bass-ackwards way of addressing things, isn't it? Most people wouldn't argue that Israel is worse than what's going on in any of those places (and if they are, they're likely too far gone to talk with), so why use the excuse of a higher standard to zero in on Israel? It just doesn't make much sense. I'm not talking really about this board, but more about the nasty anti-Israel underbelly that seems to crawl out whenever this conflict flares up.

Its the Jewish stereotype Ray:

We're rich, we run everything, therefore we should be above this "petty" conflict. Don't we run enough things around the world?

Zimbabwe, Georgia, and the Sudan have no American companies primarily creating product there, nor a US vested interest.

XXXenophile
01-03-2009, 10:44 PM
exactly.

An episode of Boston Legal truly said it best with one line:

Only other Jews can truly understand/criticize Israel in any way. No one else will EVER understand it.

XXXenophile
01-03-2009, 10:48 PM
This. It bothers me to no end that unless you are 100% supportive of all of Israel's policies some will brand you as Anti-Semitic. There is a massive difference between disagreeing with the policies of the government of Israel and the involvement of the United States when it comes to those policies and saying you hate Jews.

When Ashwin *or anyone) uses the Holocaust as a "Have you learned nothing?" statement then it can ONLY end up being construed as Anti-Semitic.

We do not have to at some point in our lives "Get over it". EVER.

Any more then I expect Ashwin's country to ever get over the recent attacks.

XXXenophile
01-03-2009, 10:54 PM
damn, this is well said.

Yeah but let's face it, none of us will go because we're afraid we'll be somewhere that'll get bombed.

My mother's planning a trip to Israel with my aunt, cousins, and their kids. I'm doing my best to somehow attempt to FORBID (yes I know it won't work, specially with a Jewish mother :D) her to go.

The last time they attempted to go, the day before the flight, my uncle's mother died and stopped trip.

I'm sometimes seriously wondering if another family member needs to pass away to stop them again.

Jonathan Callan
01-03-2009, 11:35 PM
An episode of Boston Legal truly said it best with one line:

Only other Jews can truly understand/criticize Israel in any way. No one else will EVER understand it.

Really? Really?

Imagine if you applied this logic to anything else: only Americans can criticize America foreign policy.

That's just sophistry of the highest order, man.

Brad N.
01-03-2009, 11:52 PM
When Ashwin *or anyone) uses the Holocaust as a "Have you learned nothing?" statement then it can ONLY end up being construed as Anti-Semitic.

We do not have to at some point in our lives "Get over it". EVER.

Any more then I expect Ashwin's country to ever get over the recent attacks.

No one is telling anyone here to get over the holocaust. Where the hell is that coming from? Jesus, one of the worst atrocities ever committed on a people in all of human history and something I'd say 99.9% of non-Jews view as awful and hopefully a history lesson, lest we're doomed to repeat it.

But what irks me is I've noticed a few times here that any criticism of Israel gets blasted as Anti-Semitic. If I personally disagree with the beliefs or direction of say The Nation of Islam and Minister Farrakhan does that mean I shouldn't talk about it because I'm white? Does it mean I'm a racist because I disagree with the philosophy of Black Muslims?

Because that is exactly how some people here are coming across in saying (word for word in some cases) that if we're not Jewish we can't have an opinion on the topic, or by being critical of Israel we are being Anti-Semitic. Sorry, you're wrong.

XXXenophile
01-04-2009, 12:55 AM
No one is telling anyone here to get over the holocaust. Where the hell is that coming from? Jesus, one of the worst atrocities ever committed on a people in all of human history and something I'd say 99.9% of non-Jews view as awful and hopefully a history lesson, lest we're doomed to repeat it.

But what irks me is I've noticed a few times here that any criticism of Israel gets blasted as Anti-Semitic. If I personally disagree with the beliefs or direction of say The Nation of Islam and Minister Farrakhan does that mean I shouldn't talk about it because I'm white? Does it mean I'm a racist because I disagree with the philosophy of Black Muslims?

Because that is exactly how some people here are coming across in saying (word for word in some cases) that if we're not Jewish we can't have an opinion on the topic, or by being critical of Israel we are being Anti-Semitic. Sorry, you're wrong.

Statement never really meant towards you said, far more to Ashwin.

In any case, I think the reason criticism of Israel is treated that way is mainly because you can pretty much answer every move Israel makes as "Response to the Holocaust." It will always come back to that.

Therefore, anything going against Israel ends up as potentially construed as "You're ambivalent to what we suffered" therefore its anti-semitic.

XXXenophile
01-04-2009, 12:57 AM
Really? Really?

Imagine if you applied this logic to anything else: only Americans can criticize America foreign policy.

That's just sophistry of the highest order, man.

Catholics only think they can criticize themselves, same with Mormons, Muslims, etc.

Its religion, not nationality.

Jonathan Callan
01-04-2009, 01:01 AM
Catholics only think they can criticize themselves, same with Mormons, Muslims, etc.

Its religion, not nationality.

So you can't criticize Muslims for terrorism then?

Hollingsworth
01-04-2009, 01:20 AM
For those of you who want to help the innocent people being hurt in the crossfire, consider giving some money to Mercy Corps to help out. This is an American NGO who are pretty great. If you go to the site linked below you can choose "Gaza Crisis" from the drop down menu in the donate section.

http://www.mercycorps.org/

Ashwin Pande
01-04-2009, 01:39 AM
Statement never really meant towards you said, far more to Ashwin.

In any case, I think the reason criticism of Israel is treated that way is mainly because you can pretty much answer every move Israel makes as "Response to the Holocaust." It will always come back to that.

Therefore, anything going against Israel ends up as potentially construed as "You're ambivalent to what we suffered" therefore its anti-semitic.

Clearly me thinking that the mistreatment of people by a government representing people who have been mistreated for millenia is ironic and sad equals me hating jews. Of course.

Ashwin Pande
01-04-2009, 02:18 AM
Remember what you said when your governemnt asks for help from Israel against Pakistan.

What did we learn from what we went through in Europe? Simple:

We will never let that happen again and we will do whatever we have to to make sure it doesn't.

Whether it puts us in the wrong or the right we are constantly fighting for our survival surrounded by countries that want to see nothing from us but our utter destruction and we will not give them the satisfaction.

And I'm not someone who usually agrees with what Israel does every time either but I'll never disagree over WHY they're doing it.

This particular time, Hamas started it. Which is why the US is throwing their word to Israel.

If you remember the last time there was conflict, which Israel started, the US gave their word to Hamas. Same with the UN.

You know, India's a country that won independence through protest. India was the country that started the Non-Aligned Movement, the first country that said that it wouldn't ally with the Soviet Union or the US. India sits between two dangerous potential enemies who've invaded her borders before and who we've gone to war with over this. It's true that neither Pakistan nor China want to actively wipe us out but it's a perennial tense situation.

We've weathered terrorist attacks from all fronts, domestic and international but we've never attacked anyone over it. This is a country that gained independence on the principal and ideal of non-violence and we still stand by that principle. And that comment about us asking Israel for help really grates me. Not that we wouldn't ask Israel for help if we needed it, but that you think eventually we'll have to because war with Pakistan is inevitable. We avoided it last month and from our end will continue to do so.

What you're advocating is if your neighbor hits your house with a rock, you go get a bigger rock and throw it at their house. You know what they'll do then, right? They'll go looking for a bigger rock. Or in this case a large number of smaller rocks. Yeah Israel is surrounded by enemies who want to purge them off of that land but attacking them and throwing them out of the country is not going to do anything but ensure more muslim kids are sent to madarsas to learn how Israel is evil and wants to wipe out all muslims. Not only will there never be peace in that region because of reactionary military strikes but they're basically ensuring that eventually the only resolution to this conflict will be one side completely wiping out the other side.

I don't know what a peaceful solution is, I'm not smart enough, but I am smart enough to know that dropping bombs and killing civilians while ignoring global protests and appeals to stop the attacks and let aid through isn't it.

Captain Nate
01-04-2009, 05:43 AM
You know, India's a country that won independence through protest.

If you ignore all the internal violence against minorities...

and I don't think India's situation poses any equivalence with Israel's.

Jason California
01-04-2009, 06:20 AM
Yeah but let's face it, none of us will go because we're afraid we'll be somewhere that'll get bombed.

My mother's planning a trip to Israel with my aunt, cousins, and their kids. I'm doing my best to somehow attempt to FORBID (yes I know it won't work, specially with a Jewish mother :D) her to go.

The last time they attempted to go, the day before the flight, my uncle's mother died and stopped trip.

I'm sometimes seriously wondering if another family member needs to pass away to stop them again.


I am going there in 2 years to visit a friend and can not wait!

Doc Randy
01-04-2009, 07:35 AM
And I'm not someone who usually agrees with what Israel does every time either but I'll never disagree over WHY they're doing it.


I think this statement applies to the vast majority (99% ?) of people on this forum.

Akira
01-04-2009, 07:37 AM
The one thing that always strikes me about the hard and fast condemnation of Israel - why are people not so angry about what happens in Zimbabwe, or Georgia, or Sudan?

Where are the outraged street protests? Where are the horrified internet communities? I hear over and over again that "Israel's supposed to be better". But that's kind of a bass-ackwards way of addressing things, isn't it? Most people wouldn't argue that Israel is worse than what's going on in any of those places (and if they are, they're likely too far gone to talk with), so why use the excuse of a higher standard to zero in on Israel? It just doesn't make much sense. I'm not talking really about this board, but more about the nasty anti-Israel underbelly that seems to crawl out whenever this conflict flares up.

are you actually looking for these condemnations, or is just a straw man? cause if you really think sudan and georgia get off scot free you're horribly mistaken.

Taxman
01-04-2009, 07:56 AM
damn, this is well said.I'm guessing a week in Palestinian territory might raise one's eyebrows as well, Trace.

Akira
01-04-2009, 07:56 AM
Oh, I'm pretty sure that everybody who criticizes the Chinese government for being oppressive and for censoring information hate Chinese people and are racists.

hey, everyone that doesn't like Farrakhan, your white sheets and membership Kards are in the mail!

CougarTrace
01-04-2009, 08:00 AM
I'm guessing a week in Palestinian territory might raise one's eyebrows as well, Trace.

I'm sure it would. However, I will never stand for the Hamas or anyone who helps support their hatred and vileness.

lonesomefool
01-04-2009, 08:01 AM
I'm not crazy about it, hell I'm not crazy about the US being involved in any other Country, but I also realize that things would likely be a lot worse around the world and here at home if we werent.

Though I still love the "peace" believers that think peace is possible in the Middle East. If only cause I wonder how many drugs you need to do to believe that will ever happen.

Ben
01-04-2009, 08:23 AM
First off, it is hell for everyone over there: Jew, Arab, Palestinian, Christian, Druze, etc...

And as for the "simplistic talk radio terms" comment, what do you expect on a comic book message board? A 300 page thesis on the economic fragmentation of the West Bank's water resources?

Lighten up, Francis. This is a message board and most of the comments, by nature of the medium, will be a bit short."If you were as scared as them, you'd do the same thing" sounds just as "talk radio," too. I don't usually get involved in these debates because I'm not as informed as one should be when really discussing these issues in depth (though I did take some classes on it in high school). But saying that we can't criticize them because we don't feel their fear is a weird point to make. People that are scared all the time don't necessarily make rational decisions. They don't always do things that are in their best interests.

There was a lot of talk in this country over the past decade about how many of the mistakes we've made were motivated by fear or were allowed to happen because the public was in a state of fear. Well, if Israel has it 100 times worse, what does that say?

WillieLee
01-04-2009, 08:27 AM
If all the Palestinians were fully integrated into Israeli society, and received the same education, medical, and economic opportunities as the Israelis, or if the Palestinians had the viable, sovereign, and contiguous state that Olmert and Bush recently discussed, then there would be much less fuel for the anti-Israel propagandists.

Why would the average Muslim in a place like Saudi Arabia cry for the plight of the Palestinians if the Palestinians had the highest average standard of living in the Middle East.


The simple fact is that the global war on terror is often defined as a war for the hearts and minds of the Muslim world. And the best thing for the whole world would be to take away this propaganda tool from the terrorists.

The Arabs hate the Palestinians. They treat them like shit in their own countries. The only reason they take their side in this conflict is because they want to destroy Israel. The idea that the Arab world would be appeased by a Palestinian country is not true.

Ben
01-04-2009, 08:31 AM
The Arabs hate the Palestinians. They treat them like shit in their own countries. The only reason they take their side in this conflict is because they want to destroy Israel. The idea that the Arab world would be appeased by a Palestinian country is not true.If they hate the Palestinians, why do they want to destroy Israel?

Brad N.
01-04-2009, 08:44 AM
Catholics only think they can criticize themselves, same with Mormons, Muslims, etc.

Its religion, not nationality.

No, they don't.

WillieLee
01-04-2009, 08:46 AM
If they hate the Palestinians, why do they want to destroy Israel?

Because they hate Jews more than they hate Palestinians.

Ashwin Pande
01-04-2009, 09:05 AM
Because they hate Jews more than they hate Palestinians.

Now I'm genuinely asking a question here because I'm a bit sketchy on this.

There's this part in Palestine where Sacco is talking to this old palestinian guy and he says that they used to live fine with the Palestinian jews that were there for thousands of years but it's when the European jews came and started settling the territory that the entire shitstorm started.

I know a lot of nations and people have hated jews over time and it's despicable but did the arabs hate the jews before Israel was created, or did they not have any strong opinion about jews or did their hatred just get intensified because of the creation of Israel?

Doc Randy
01-04-2009, 09:10 AM
The Arabs hate the Palestinians. They treat them like shit in their own countries. The only reason they take their side in this conflict is because they want to destroy Israel. The idea that the Arab world would be appeased by a Palestinian country is not true.

My point is not that the Arab world would be "appeased". The point is that the propaganda and recruitment tools of these terrorist organizations would be lessened if there was no perceived injustice against the Palestinians. Would there still be anti-Israel forces in the Arab world? Sure. But I think they would be much weaker - and ideally, easier to dispose of or render impotent.

Doc Randy
01-04-2009, 09:25 AM
An episode of Boston Legal truly said it best with one line:

Only other Jews can truly understand/criticize Israel in any way. No one else will EVER understand it.

This statement is odd to me. Because I have noticed a HUGE difference in the attitudes of American Jews and Israeli Jews concerning the conflict. It seems like Jews outside of Israel are so much more jingoistic than the ones in Israel (excluding the conservative hardliners and fringe settlers). There seems to be much more variety of discourse in Israel than here.

I have spent quite a bit of time with former Israeli soldiers and even a handful of former commandos from the Sayeret Golani and was amazed at how cynical they all were. The vast majority of them who had seen so much combat and strife were very very critical of Israeli actions. To be fair, they all pretty much loathe the Palestinians.

The one thing that always struck me was their complaint that they were part of a perpetual war without end. And they suggested that one of the best things for Israel would be to no longer receive economic aid from America. One of the Sayeret guys explained it to me this way... as long as there is the steady infusion of capital allocated for military purposes, there will always be a vested interest in maintaining conflict.

I certainly don't have all the answers.

But why is it there is so much more open criticism of Israel, its military actions, and the peace process by Jews in Israel than there is in the United States?

Tony Bang
01-04-2009, 09:33 AM
If they hate the Palestinians, why do they want to destroy Israel?

The crazy religious parts of the Arabic community don't like other people hanging out at the Al-Aqsa Mosque. (which is in Jerusalem)

It's the third holiest site in Islam, and the crazy fundies want it all to themselves.

Which is why I've never bought the idea that an Islam terrorist group would nuke Israel. It would be like crazy Catholic terrorist blowing up Vatican City.

Tony Bang
01-04-2009, 09:35 AM
I don't feel any where near informed enough to actually debate this issue, but I will point to someone who is writing excellent stuff about it.

Glenn Greenwald seems to be a very smart man. Even though, while railing against tribalism, he shows a bit of it himself.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/

s.oliver
01-04-2009, 09:53 AM
Because they hate Jews more than they hate Palestinians.

I don't know if you're aware of it, but I believe that is almost word for word
something a Palestinian terrorist/freedom fighter tells the Jewish main character
in Spielberg's Munich.

JoeE
01-04-2009, 10:15 AM
I don't feel any where near informed enough to actually debate this issue, but I will point to someone who is writing excellent stuff about it.

Glenn Greenwald seems to be a very smart man. Even though, while railing against tribalism, he shows a bit of it himself.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/

Typical Greenwald ad hominem. Goldfarb is not the issue.

JoeE
01-04-2009, 10:25 AM
Now I'm genuinely asking a question here because I'm a bit sketchy on this.

There's this part in Palestine where Sacco is talking to this old palestinian guy and he says that they used to live fine with the Palestinian jews that were there for thousands of years but it's when the European jews came and started settling the territory that the entire shitstorm started.

I know a lot of nations and people have hated jews over time and it's despicable but did the arabs hate the jews before Israel was created, or did they not have any strong opinion about jews or did their hatred just get intensified because of the creation of Israel?

Because Arab manhood has been kneed by the Israelis, continually. Arab countries have had their asses handed to them multiple times by the Israelis since partition. Think of the bitterness that the American hardliners who wanted to stay in Vietnam felt after getting defeated by an inferior opponent in the Vietnam War and multiply it times a thousand. Israel's existence is an affront to Arab honor, no small thing in an honor-based culture. The fact that Israel also happens to be located on Muslim holy land doesn't help, either.

Ray G.
01-04-2009, 11:02 AM
are you actually looking for these condemnations, or is just a straw man? cause if you really think sudan and georgia get off scot free you're horribly mistaken.

The Sudan and Georgia crises get teary-eyed vigils and calls for UN peacekeepers. I've certainly never seen the kind of rage, hatred, and venom reserved for Israel.

I'm willing to bet the vast majority of those at anti-Israel rallies don't believe Israel should exist. They share that opinion with Hamas, and it's not a point that can be negotiated with.

WillieLee
01-04-2009, 11:05 AM
Now I'm genuinely asking a question here because I'm a bit sketchy on this.

There's this part in Palestine where Sacco is talking to this old palestinian guy and he says that they used to live fine with the Palestinian jews that were there for thousands of years but it's when the European jews came and started settling the territory that the entire shitstorm started.

I know a lot of nations and people have hated jews over time and it's despicable but did the arabs hate the jews before Israel was created, or did they not have any strong opinion about jews or did their hatred just get intensified because of the creation of Israel?

There have been periods of tolerance in the history of Islamic nations in which some Jewish communities have flourished but there have been just as many periods of mistreatment and killing. Living in India, I'm sure you're well aware of how ethnic violence ebbs and flows. It's really not that much different in the Middle East.

The creation of Israel allows the various factions a convenient excuse to build the hatred. If the Palestinians got their own country they would likely switch to the "western values" of Israel. They'll always find something.

Jonathan Callan
01-04-2009, 11:29 AM
This statement is odd to me. Because I have noticed a HUGE difference in the attitudes of American Jews and Israeli Jews concerning the conflict. It seems like Jews outside of Israel are so much more jingoistic than the ones in Israel (excluding the conservative hardliners and fringe settlers). There seems to be much more variety of discourse in Israel than here.

But why is it there is so much more open criticism of Israel, its military actions, and the peace process by Jews in Israel than there is in the United States?

I'm going to make a cynical point and I hope no one will take it to mean that I'm cynical about this issue. It's a complicated and faceted conflict and I would never try to imply otherwise. But it seems to me that Israel has been more than shrewd in recognizing that it's continued survival lies in the hands of American-born Jews and continued Jewish sympathy as we get further and further away from the holocaust.

They've made every attempt to indoctrinate each new generation of American Jews in the stake of Israeli's survival. It is not for utterly altruistic reasons that they would fund programs that would pay for any American Jew to return to the Holy Land: they're trying to ensure that the plight of Israel does not become removed from the values of the average American Jew.

This might go part of the way toward answering your question Randy. There's about five million Jews currently in the U.S. That represents a minority of a political opinion no matter how you slice it. No doubt Israel would not receive nearly the support it does if it's continued survival was not also in the interests of hard-line Christian Evangelicals.

Perhaps American-born Jews don't feel they have the luxury of criticizing Israel.

Akira
01-04-2009, 12:13 PM
I'm willing to bet the vast majority of those at anti-Israel rallies don't believe Israel should exist. They share that opinion with Hamas, and it's not a point that can be negotiated with.

You're reaching and you know it. This self-victimization and willingness to find anti-semitism where none has been expressed is disturbing. One can feel that Israel:

-Abuses their military power
-Shouldn't have the financial support of the US
-Should be their own state.


These three beliefs are not mutually exclusive, and insinuating that they are is dangerous and dishonest and quite frankly insulting to people who believe them. By jumping to this conclusion that believing that Israel isn't blameless in this conflict, or that the US shouldn't support Israel in (what is essentially) a turf war is anti-semetic you risk alienating potential allies.

AmirLehman
01-04-2009, 12:28 PM
I highly recommend the documentary called "Bridge Over the Wadi".


In Israel, for the first time, a group of Arab and Jewish parents decide to establish a bi-national, bi-lingual grade school in the Wadi Ara village. 'BRIDGE OVER THE WADI' follows the school's first year and shows how fragile the attempt is to create an environment of co-existence against the backdrop of the complicated reality of the film's subjects.

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=xOFqIewf4OM

XXXenophile
01-04-2009, 12:55 PM
Clearly me thinking that the mistreatment of people by a government representing people who have been mistreated for millenia is ironic and sad equals me hating jews. Of course.

No wondering if we learned anything from what happened to us in Europe is what can put me in that frame of mind.

Jonathan Callan
01-04-2009, 01:02 PM
No wondering if we learned anything from what happened to us in Europe is what can put me in that frame of mind.

You ignored my question man. You claimed that one had to judge Israel as a religion, not a nation and that therefore only Jews could judge and/or criticize how Israel acted.

Does this mean you can't criticize the 9/11 hijackers, who acted out of their own interpretation of their religion?

XXXenophile
01-04-2009, 01:03 PM
You know, India's a country that won independence through protest. India was the country that started the Non-Aligned Movement, the first country that said that it wouldn't ally with the Soviet Union or the US. India sits between two dangerous potential enemies who've invaded her borders before and who we've gone to war with over this. It's true that neither Pakistan nor China want to actively wipe us out but it's a perennial tense situation.

We've weathered terrorist attacks from all fronts, domestic and international but we've never attacked anyone over it. This is a country that gained independence on the principal and ideal of non-violence and we still stand by that principle. And that comment about us asking Israel for help really grates me. Not that we wouldn't ask Israel for help if we needed it, but that you think eventually we'll have to because war with Pakistan is inevitable. We avoided it last month and from our end will continue to do so.

What you're advocating is if your neighbor hits your house with a rock, you go get a bigger rock and throw it at their house. You know what they'll do then, right? They'll go looking for a bigger rock. Or in this case a large number of smaller rocks. Yeah Israel is surrounded by enemies who want to purge them off of that land but attacking them and throwing them out of the country is not going to do anything but ensure more muslim kids are sent to madarsas to learn how Israel is evil and wants to wipe out all muslims. Not only will there never be peace in that region because of reactionary military strikes but they're basically ensuring that eventually the only resolution to this conflict will be one side completely wiping out the other side.

I don't know what a peaceful solution is, I'm not smart enough, but I am smart enough to know that dropping bombs and killing civilians while ignoring global protests and appeals to stop the attacks and let aid through isn't it.

Ashwin, as I said earlier, I defintiely do not always agree with moves Israel makes. I'm not crazy bout this one either. The only "justification" is that Hamas definitely started it first and even that's tenous.

But just cause I don't agree with WHAT and HOW they do things, I don't ever doubt WHY they do what they do.

There definitely doesn't need to be a "they threw a stone so we're using a boulder" analogy but you know what? At some point, its going to come down to just getting every last one of those who hate us (and hopefully helping/saving those among them who don't and WANT to coexist) and just being able to live life without fear of threat. I agree that huminatarian efforts should be allowed through, but when you know all it will do is get the ball rolling for the Palestines to start at some point ANOTHER offensive? You kinda not want to give them the oppurtunity.

And no, I don't think India having a war with Pakistan in inevitable, I just saw what you said as someone who talks behind someone's back but as soon as they need them, they'll act all friendly while keeping their true feelings aside. Why would I want to help someone who badmouths me? You know that sort of thing. (And in no way am I putting this on you personally, beleive me. I was glad you and your family were safe in the attacks last month.)

XXXenophile
01-04-2009, 01:06 PM
I think this statement applies to the vast majority (99% ?) of people on this forum.

Unfortunately wrong words/phrases can make that idea unclear, even if the intent is not.

But that's how people speak. We can't always get the proper point across.

It does seem at times people can be too busy condeming Israel's actions and not being able to acknowledge the "why" therefore we think they're being anti-semtic.

XXXenophile
01-04-2009, 01:11 PM
But why is it there is so much more open criticism of Israel, its military actions, and the peace process by Jews in Israel than there is in the United States?

I think the simplest answer to that is "They're living through it and we're not."

Certainly they'll see more things with a harsher eye than those of us who watch purely on CNN.

XXXenophile
01-04-2009, 01:16 PM
I'm going to make a cynical point and I hope no one will take it to mean that I'm cynical about this issue. It's a complicated and faceted conflict and I would never try to imply otherwise. But it seems to me that Israel has been more than shrewd in recognizing that it's continued survival lies in the hands of American-born Jews and continued Jewish sympathy as we get further and further away from the holocaust.

They've made every attempt to indoctrinate each new generation of American Jews in the stake of Israeli's survival. It is not for utterly altruistic reasons that they would fund programs that would pay for any American Jew to return to the Holy Land: they're trying to ensure that the plight of Israel does not become removed from the values of the average American Jew.

This might go part of the way toward answering your question Randy. There's about five million Jews currently in the U.S. That represents a minority of a political opinion no matter how you slice it. No doubt Israel would not receive nearly the support it does if it's continued survival was not also in the interests of hard-line Christian Evangelicals.

Perhaps American-born Jews don't feel they have the luxury of criticizing Israel.

Not just all of that, the fact that you've got Iran's president as a HUGE Holocaust denier which can definitely give that faction more credo.

So of course Israel will keep hammering the history. That's what "Never Forget" means.

We have to make sure history doesn't get re-written.

Captain Nate
01-05-2009, 05:01 AM
I'm guessing a week in Palestinian territory might raise one's eyebrows as well, Trace.

He'd likely be shot by the Palestinians for being an Israeli spy.


It's the third holiest site in Islam, and the crazy fundies want it all to themselves.

Which is why I've never bought the idea that an Islam terrorist group would nuke Israel. It would be like crazy Catholic terrorist blowing up Vatican City.

(1) Most of Israel could be destroyed by attacking Tel Aviv and Northern Israel, not Jerusalem.

(2) I think it would be a worthwhile trade off for Iran. Places like Mecca hold far more religious value to them than the Temple Mount.


One can feel that Israel:

-[1]Abuses their military power
-[2]Shouldn't have the financial support of the US
-[3]Should be their own state.


These three beliefs are not mutually exclusive

Except when one realizes the truth that without any (2) international assistance and its (1) use of military power, Israel would likely cease to be a State (3).

KingMob
01-05-2009, 11:27 AM
Limbaugh says the lib media is putting a spin on this to make Israel look like the bad guy. I just had it on in the car.

Doc Randy
01-05-2009, 11:35 AM
Limbaugh says the lib media is putting a spin on this to make Israel look like the bad guy. I just had it on in the car.

Don't Limbaugh and his ilk idiotically complain that the Jews run the liberal media?

In fact, here is a good piece from his hated liberal New York Times:

NYTimes - William Kristol - "Why Israel Fights" (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/05/opinion/05kristol.html?_r=1&ref=opinion)

Seems pretty pro-Israel to me from such a liberal paper.

Maybe he should STFU about the whole liberal media thing.

RebootedCorpse
01-05-2009, 11:37 AM
Don't Limbaugh and his ilk complain that the Jews run the liberal media? The guy is an idiot.

In fact, here is a good piece from his hated liberal New York Times:

NYTimes - William Kristol - "Why Israel Fights" (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/05/opinion/05kristol.html?_r=1&ref=opinion)

Seems pretty pro-Israel to me.

Jews who hate Israel, the worst kind.

KingMob
01-05-2009, 11:41 AM
Don't Limbaugh and his ilk idiotically complain that the Jews run the liberal media?

In fact, here is a good piece from his hated liberal New York Times:

NYTimes - William Kristol - "Why Israel Fights" (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/05/opinion/05kristol.html?_r=1&ref=opinion)

Seems pretty pro-Israel to me from such a liberal paper.

Maybe he should STFU about the whole liberal media thing.

i know!

that dumb son of a bitch will try to spin anything, he's worse than.....

oh nevermind. :lol:

Akira
01-05-2009, 11:46 AM
Except when one realizes the truth that without any (2) international assistance and its (1) use of military power, Israel would likely cease to be a State (3).

(2) International aid doesn't need to include a country currently waging multiple wars of their own and fighting a recession, and (1) you can use military power without abusing it.

Ray G.
01-05-2009, 12:28 PM
Don't Limbaugh and his ilk idiotically complain that the Jews run the liberal media?

In fact, here is a good piece from his hated liberal New York Times:

NYTimes - William Kristol - "Why Israel Fights" (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/05/opinion/05kristol.html?_r=1&ref=opinion)

Seems pretty pro-Israel to me from such a liberal paper.

Maybe he should STFU about the whole liberal media thing.

I haven't heard Limbaugh say anything like that. This is a request for links, not an accusation of it not being true, BTW. I like to be informed on my media anti-semites.

Some of his "ilk" certainly do. Michael Savage, for one.

I think Kristol is one of the NY Times' more conservative columnists, though, right?

Ben
01-05-2009, 12:40 PM
I think the simplest answer to that is "They're living through it and we're not."

Certainly they'll see more things with a harsher eye than those of us who watch purely on CNN.Why does that automatically mean that know better than us? Couldn't the constant fear and terror they're subjected to lead them to make poorer decisions?

RebootedCorpse
01-05-2009, 12:47 PM
They're locked in a suicide spiral. I think it is best to stay as far away as possible.

Bill!
01-05-2009, 01:32 PM
They're locked in a suicide spiral. I think it is best to stay as far away as possible.

That's basically it. I've grown sick and tired of hearing and talking about it. The leadership and violent minorities of both groups are criminals. Childish little criminals with no morality. Ship them all off to outer space and let the majority of both groups live in peace as they truly wish.

Ray G.
01-05-2009, 01:33 PM
NM: Misread

Ray G.
01-05-2009, 01:34 PM
That's basically it. I've grown sick and tired of hearing and talking about it. The leadership and violent minorities of both groups are criminals. Childish little criminals with no morality. Ship them all off to outer space and let the majority of both groups live in peace as they truly wish.

I think you misread the conflict. You remove the leaders, the key issues would still remain.

Bill!
01-05-2009, 01:36 PM
I think you misread the conflict. You remove the leaders, the key issues would still remain.

I also said the minorities of the populations that want to fight. I think you'll agree that the vast majority of people there don't want to fight anymore, as long as they can live a decent life. But there are always going to be a small group, on each side, who want to fight for the sake of fighting.

Khrutch
01-05-2009, 01:41 PM
I fully support Israel.

GelfXIII
01-05-2009, 01:47 PM
I dont always side with Israel, but I do in this case. There were an average of 8 rocket attacks a day with an average of 2 deaths a day for the entire 6 months of the "Cease fire". How long are they supposed to sit there and eat shit? And now Hamas calls for suicide attacks? Nuh uh. No sir.

Taxman
01-05-2009, 04:07 PM
He'd likely be shot by the Palestinians for being an Israeli spy. You're an Israeli spy, Trace?

CougarTrace
01-05-2009, 04:32 PM
You're an Israeli spy, Trace?

nah, my duty is more local.

not that the Hamas could catch me anyway :cool:

Brad N.
01-05-2009, 06:38 PM
I haven't heard Limbaugh say anything like that. This is a request for links, not an accusation of it not being true, BTW. I like to be informed on my media anti-semites.

Some of his "ilk" certainly do. Michael Savage, for one.

I think Kristol is one of the NY Times' more conservative columnists, though, right?

Wait, I'm confused. I dislike Michael Weiner as much as the next guy, but isn't he Jewish? He usually comes off pretty pro-Israel to me.

Ray G.
01-05-2009, 06:40 PM
Wait, I'm confused. I dislike Michael Weiner as much as the next guy, but isn't he Jewish? He usually comes off pretty pro-Israel to me.

Yes, he's staunchly pro-Israel. Pro-American jews...less so. He's constantly singling out Jews in politics and the media as those responsible for all the liberal evils he decries. Very odd, sick little man.

Brad N.
01-05-2009, 06:57 PM
Yes, he's staunchly pro-Israel. Pro-American jews...less so. He's constantly singling out Jews in politics and the media as those responsible for all the liberal evils he decries. Very odd, sick little man.

Ahhhh, I see. Yes, and you're right. He's a sick and weird little goof who does indeed rail against the Jews in the liberal media. Thanks for the clarification.

Taxman
01-05-2009, 07:03 PM
nah, my duty is more local.

not that the Hamas could catch me anyway :cool:Spymaster Trace :rock:

XXXenophile
01-07-2009, 12:40 AM
You ignored my question man. You claimed that one had to judge Israel as a religion, not a nation and that therefore only Jews could judge and/or criticize how Israel acted.

Does this mean you can't criticize the 9/11 hijackers, who acted out of their own interpretation of their religion?

Not ignoring it, I realized I coudnl't actually come up with an answer to it. Your reasoning using Muslims worked and I couldn't see a way round it.

XXXenophile
01-07-2009, 12:44 AM
They're locked in a suicide spiral. I think it is best to stay as far away as possible.

My mother, aunt, uncle, cousins, and their kids are flying out there on Thursday.

Yeah, no way I can stay away. I'll be glued to CNN for the next two weeks like mad.

Though according to my aunt, who spoke to her Rabbi who just came back from there, you have no idea there's a war even going on anywhere in Jerusalem unless you turn on the news.

Its far enough away no one feels they're in any danger.

That better be true with my family out there.

XXXenophile
01-07-2009, 12:45 AM
Why does that automatically mean that know better than us? Couldn't the constant fear and terror they're subjected to lead them to make poorer decisions?

Depends where they are in Israel. In the capity city of Jerusalem, they're far enough away life is going on very normally therefore they don't have fear and terror making their decisions.

They're going to the beach. :)

XXXenophile
01-07-2009, 12:47 AM
After hearing Syria's president on CNN today I say go after him next.

Captain Nate
01-07-2009, 10:22 AM
Protester Calls for Jews to 'Go Back to the Oven' at Anti-Israel Demonstration

Wednesday, January 07, 2009

By Joseph Abrams

Like many other protests of Israel's campaign in Gaza, this one ended badly — police had to cool an ugly fight between supporters of Israel and Gaza, breaking up the warring sides as their screaming and chanting threatened to turn into something worse.

But some protesters at this rally in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., took their rhetoric a step further, calling for the extermination of Israel — and of Jews.

Separated by battle lines and a stream of rush-hour traffic outside a federal courthouse last week, at least 200 pro-Palestinian demonstrators faced off against a smaller crowd of Israel supporters.

Most of the chants were run-of-the-mill; men and women waving Palestinian flags called Israel's invasion of Gaza a "crime," while the pro-Israel group carried signs calling the Hamas-run territory a "terror state."

But as the protest continued and crowds grew, one woman in a hijab began to shout curses and slurs that shocked Jewish activists in the city, which has a sizable Jewish population.

"Go back to the oven," she shouted, calling for the counter-protesters to die in the manner that the Nazis used to exterminate Jews during the Holocaust.

"You need a big oven, that's what you need," she yelled.

Millions of Jews were gassed and burned in crematoria throughout Europe during Adolf Hitler's rule of Germany. The protest organizers, asked to comment on the woman's overt call for Jewish extermination, said she was "insensitive" but refused to condemn her statement.

"She does not represent the opinions of the vast majority of people who were there," said Emmanuel Lopez, who helped plan the event, one of many sponsored nationwide on Dec. 30 by the ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War and End Racism ) Coalition.

Lopez, a state coordinator for ANSWER, admitted there is a problem with anti-Semitism within his organization's ranks. But then he went on to call the supporters of Israel across the street "barbaric, racist" Zionist terrorists.

"Zionism in general is a barbaric, racist movement that really is the cause of the situation in the entire Middle East," Lopez said.

The unidentified woman, who protest organizers said was a Muslim, wasn't the only protester who raised hackles that day. Other demonstrators held signs that said "Nuke Israel," and a number made comparisons to the Holocaust, accusing Israel of genocide in Gaza.

More than 670 Palestinians, including hundreds of civilians, have been killed in the 12 days of Israel's campaign in Gaza. At least 30 were killed Tuesday by Israeli shelling of a U.N. school that had been housing refugees. (Israel said its forces fired at militants who launched mortars from that location.)

"This is absolutely inhumane," said Ahmed Suid, who attended the demonstration, according to the South Florida Sun-Sentinel. "This is a modern-day Holocaust."

The comparisons of the Israelis to the Nazis has Jewish organizations concerned about a "growing trend" at protests in America, where they say hatred of Israel and Jews is being increasingly preached.

"We're worried about hate speech. We're worried because hate speech eventually leads to pain and suffering and death," said Abraham Foxman, director of the Anti-Defamation League, which has been tracking Gaza protests.

"Comparisons of Israel to the Nazis are a deeply cynical perversion of history, an attempt to turn the tragedy that befell the Jewish people into a bludgeon against Israel," he said.

Even though police had to intercede and break up a potentially violent confrontation between the two factions at the Fort Lauderdale protest, organizers called it a success, saying it drew crowds of new activists.

"It was not just an academic exercise . . . not just a protest," Lopez told FOXNews.com. "It's a material force."

RebootedCorpse
01-07-2009, 10:25 AM
Protester Calls for Jews to 'Go Back to the Oven' at Anti-Israel Demonstration

A better headline: Idiot shouts something idiotic

stevapalooza
01-07-2009, 10:38 AM
A better headline: Idiot shouts something idiotic

Or even better "dispute over fairy tale leads to violence, war."

Ray G.
01-07-2009, 10:47 AM
Or even better "dispute over fairy tale leads to violence, war."

The Middle East conflict isn't about religion. It's about survival.

bartleby
01-07-2009, 10:56 AM
The Middle East conflict isn't about religion. It's about survival.

Sure

Ray G.
01-07-2009, 10:58 AM
Sure

Pretending it's about religion is a great way for Secular Progressives to maintain their doctrine of moral equivalency. But it's not. It's about Hamas' desire to have a Jew-free Middle East.

Captain Nate
01-07-2009, 10:59 AM
A better headline: Idiot shouts something idiotic

Do you ever consider whether this viewpoint is more prevalent in American anti-Israeli circles, let alone in Gaza and the Arab world itself? After all, the article points out that ANSWER, the liberal anti-war organization, refused to condemn the comments.

Ray G.
01-07-2009, 11:03 AM
Do you ever consider whether this viewpoint is more prevalent in American anti-Israeli circles, let alone in Gaza and the Arab world itself? After all, the article points out that ANSWER, the liberal anti-war organization, refused to condemn the comments.

ANSWER is pretty much a cesspool of the most revolting elements of the left.

Armored Dildo
01-07-2009, 11:05 AM
Those 100 killed with planes and bombs wouldn't be dead if those ten hadn't been killed with rockets.

There's your answer.

Death to Hamas.

And every single one of those hundred people are Hamas? Do you live there? Have you spent time there? Is ANYONE ON THIS THREAD even aware that tens of thousands of Palestinians and Israelis are sick to death of violence and want peace? Granted, we never hear their voices, because extremists make better TV news.

Look, Hezbollah and Hamas are being supported by Iran. They are extremists who ultimately DO NOT have the interests of Palestinians in mind and should no longer exist. And frankly, the (mostly American) Jews who populate those settlements are extremists in their own right, and their violent, racist, paranoid rhetoric frustrates the FUCK out of the Israelis who have lived their much, much longer than them and who disavow (no longer want to have any part of) an history of xenophobia in Israel society and law (like, you know, erecting a wall).

A lot has changed since the late 1960s, but violent, hateful people on both sides are keeping those fires going, nevermind Biblical rights.

You can bomb Hamas and Hezbollah into extinction at the cost of half of the Palestinians in the area, and that might be tempting to many, but I promise you that many of the settlers and other Jewish extremists in the area will finish the job and perpetrate their own holocaust, eliminating all of them. If that still appeals to you, you are a monster and not a human being anymore. If Israel really is the enlightened democracy many believe it is and not a theocratic military state, then it should lead the way of peace and cooperation and throw away a society and law that is based on the fundamental principle that all non-Jews are to be shunned, feared and denied: the assumption that all Palestinians are dumb sand niggers, which is as offensive a concept as the term I just used (but it is implicit in all news coverage of them).

Ray G.
01-07-2009, 11:13 AM
And every single one of those hundred people are Hamas? Do you live there? Have you spent time there? Is ANYONE ON THIS THREAD even aware that tens of thousands of Palestinians and Israelis are sick to death of violence and want peace? Granted, we never hear their voices, because extremists make better TV news.

Look, Hezbollah and Hamas are being supported by Iran. They are extremists who ultimately DO NOT have the interests of Palestinians in mind and should no longer exist. And frankly, the (mostly American) Jews who populate those settlements are extremists in their own right, and their violent, racist, paranoid rhetoric frustrates the FUCK out of the Israelis who have lived their much, much longer than them and who disavow (no longer want to have any part of) an history of xenophobia in Israel society and law (like, you know, erecting a wall).

A lot has changed since the late 1960s, but violent, hateful people on both sides are keeping those fires going, nevermind Biblical rights

The problem is, Hamas creates these situations.

They create mass casualties, designed to make Israel look bad. In the recent case of the school that was bombed, they hid in a busy school, then actively engaged the Israelis FROM the school, drawing fire. If they were going to go out in conflict with the Israelis, they wanted it to be in a place where a lot of innocents would be killed as well. Not only are Hamas willing to kill as many Jews as possible, they're willing to kill as many Palestinians as possible if it turns the world against Israel.

That is why any solution for the future welfare of the Palestinian people has to begin with the obliteration of Hamas.

CougarTrace
01-07-2009, 11:14 AM
And every single one of those hundred people are Hamas? Do you live there? Have you spent time there? Is ANYONE ON THIS THREAD even aware that tens of thousands of Palestinians and Israelis are sick to death of violence and want peace? Granted, we never hear their voices, because extremists make better TV news.

Look, Hezbollah and Hamas are being supported by Iran. They are extremists who ultimately DO NOT have the interests of Palestinians in mind and should no longer exist. And frankly, the (mostly American) Jews who populate those settlements are extremists in their own right, and their violent, racist, paranoid rhetoric frustrates the FUCK out of the Israelis who have lived their much, much longer than them and who disavow (no longer want to have any part of) an history of xenophobia in Israel society and law (like, you know, erecting a wall).

A lot has changed since the late 1960s, but violent, hateful people on both sides are keeping those fires going, nevermind Biblical rights

Well, the Palestinians on some level have to be tolerating the Hamas, right? To me that is shameful.

Ray G.
01-07-2009, 11:18 AM
Well, the Palestinians on some level have to be tolerating the Hamas, right? To me that is shameful.

To me, it looks like the hens elected the wolf to watch over them in a fair and democratic election.

By the time they realized what monsters Hamas was (probably around the time their thugs started slaughtering the Fatah leaders and their families), Hamas had already consolidated power.

stevapalooza
01-07-2009, 11:22 AM
The Middle East conflict isn't about religion. It's about survival.

Survival in a struggle rooted in religious beliefs and dueling senses of cosmic entitlement.

Armored Dildo
01-07-2009, 11:25 AM
The problem is, Hamas creates these situations.

They create mass casualties, designed to make Israel look bad. In the recent case of the school that was bombed, they hid in a busy school, then actively engaged the Israelis FROM the school, drawing fire. If they were going to go out in conflict with the Israelis, they wanted it to be in a place where a lot of innocents would be killed as well. Not only are Hamas willing to kill as many Jews as possible, they're willing to kill as many Palestinians as possible if it turns the world against Israel.

That is why any solution for the future welfare of the Palestinian people has to begin with the obliteration of Hamas.

And realistically, only the Palestinians can kick out Hamas. A tree, no matter how extensive the root system, cannot live through an earthquake (when the ground supporting it is not longer solid) but here's the rub: I think Israelis need to reach out to Palestinians and let them know that their voices will be heard and THAT is what seemingly will "never happen". It's hard to convince the Palestinians they don't need terrorist groups from Iran when you put a wall between you and them.

You know, were Israel to take the lead in establishing peace, they'd also pull the rug under all the anti-Semites and neo-Nazis out there. There's a huge opportunity there and the ONLY thing in the way is a culture of fear and paranoia that the state of Israel is under constant attack (and, yes, a lot of the time it is). I mean, not all the criticism of the state of Israel is purely hateful or intended to destroy all Jews (to think that is the epitome of idiocy) but it's hard to get that across, to and so the Israeli lobby does an AMAZING job silencing even the constructive criticism against the state (which is in itself the hallmark of a military regime and NOT a true democracy)

Armored Dildo
01-07-2009, 11:26 AM
Well, the Palestinians on some level have to be tolerating the Hamas, right? To me that is shameful.

Too true.

Akira
01-07-2009, 11:26 AM
The Middle East conflict isn't about religion. It's about survival.

ray, I love you man, but just no.

Armored Dildo
01-07-2009, 11:36 AM
Breaking news: Israel is allowing aid into Gaza and is committed to peace talks with Egypt and... France, was it? Anyway...
AS Siuntres would say: "Attaboy"

thecheat1
01-07-2009, 11:46 AM
Haha. I am definitely not anti-semintic. I'm not even anti-religious. I am anti-bothering people. Do you know how many jewish people have come to my house to bother me? 0. Want to know how many Christians?

I am at the point where if it were legal to kill religious people that trespass on your property in their effort to save you, I would have a rifle by the door and a tally over the doorjam.

Wow...that's is incredibly offensive and disturbing.

RebootedCorpse
01-07-2009, 11:48 AM
Do you ever consider whether this viewpoint is more prevalent in American anti-Israeli circles, let alone in Gaza and the Arab world itself? After all, the article points out that ANSWER, the liberal anti-war organization, refused to condemn the comments.

What American Anti-Israeli circles? The Klan? The Neo-Nazis?
Just because someone sees bombing as a bad solution that will only generate more hate and an endless cycle of retribution and response -- that doesn't make them anti-Israel.

Ray G.
01-07-2009, 11:54 AM
What American Anti-Israeli circles? The Klan? The Neo-Nazis?
Just because someone sees bombing as a bad solution that will only generate more hate and an endless cycle of retribution and response -- that doesn't make them anti-Israel.

Are you kidding me?


Lopez, a state coordinator for ANSWER, admitted there is a problem with anti-Semitism within his organization's ranks. But then he went on to call the supporters of Israel across the street "barbaric, racist" Zionist terrorists.

"Zionism in general is a barbaric, racist movement that really is the cause of the situation in the entire Middle East," Lopez said.

The unidentified woman, who protest organizers said was a Muslim, wasn't the only protester who raised hackles that day. Other demonstrators held signs that said "Nuke Israel," and a number made comparisons to the Holocaust, accusing Israel of genocide in Gaza.

This isn't "anti-Israel"?