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xhondax
12-11-2008, 12:54 PM
Have they had the trial yet to figure out who owns the rights to the comics yet? I haven't seen any news on this for atleast a year, I just want someone to reprint the trades.

Gregory
12-11-2008, 12:56 PM
Gaiman is asked about this on his blog every once in a while, and the answer is "nothing's happening."

Patrick J
12-11-2008, 01:00 PM
There was a trial. Gaiman won, I think. I'm not really sure. I remember the final ruling being nothing short of confusing. Miracleman is still in limbo as far as I know.

Guirk the Thudner
12-11-2008, 01:01 PM
Best thing we can hope for is that it is quickly optioned for a movie as soon as Watchmen hits, and someone strong-arms the rights to tpb publication.

Otherwise, there's no hope.

JR Ewing
12-11-2008, 01:03 PM
Best thing we can hope for is that it is quickly optioned for a movie as soon as Watchmen hits, and someone strong-arms the rights to tpb publication.

Otherwise, there's no hope.

How could it be optioned? If the rights are still undetermined then who do you pay for the option, unless it's already been optioned and it's been sitting in turnaround for twenty years.

Thudpucker
12-11-2008, 01:03 PM
Same thing that's always going on, nothing.

Damian696
12-11-2008, 01:04 PM
Best thing we can hope for is that it is quickly optioned for a movie as soon as Watchmen hits, and someone strong-arms the rights to tpb publication.

Otherwise, there's no hope.

but who would they buy the rights from?

edit: dammit, JR, cliffbarnesd again :-x

Guirk the Thudner
12-11-2008, 01:08 PM
All I'm saying is that enough money could become involved that it won't matter who it belongs to, because there may be enough to go around.

But I mean I am knowingly grasping at straws. We all better just enjoy the torrent versions available, because it is likely to forever remain comics' white whale.

SteveFlack
12-11-2008, 01:09 PM
but who would they buy the rights from?

Mick Angelo.

-Steve

JR Ewing
12-11-2008, 01:10 PM
but who would they buy the rights from?

edit: dammit, JR, cliffbarnesd again :-x

:rock:

Taxman
12-11-2008, 01:40 PM
There was a trial. Gaiman won, I think. I'm not really sure. I remember the final ruling being nothing short of confusing. Miracleman is still in limbo as far as I know.This is true, that was like five years ago. There was talk of Marvel publishing the character, reprints and possibly even new stories.

Soon after, a guy who believed he owned the rights way back from the Marvelman days stepped in with a new suit. No significant movement since.

xhondax
12-11-2008, 02:01 PM
damn i should just print out the torrent file and bind it, it may be the only way i'll own it in a book form.

edwardmblake
12-11-2008, 02:02 PM
I think he's just chillin', drinking a Bud.

Adrian B AWESOME
12-11-2008, 02:10 PM
:lol: Funny. Just listened to an older podcast by Alan Moore and he states that the original creator of Marvelman, Mick Anglo, is alive, and actually still retained the rights.

It's really fucked up.

So basically absolutely nothing will happen with the books unless Mick decides to do something. He's 92.

Captain Sensation
12-11-2008, 02:35 PM
So i suggest someone get in contact with Dr. Pepper and get them to issues some kind of statement saying everyone gets a free Dr. Pepper if Miracleman is reprinted in 09.

andrew french
12-11-2008, 03:01 PM
I hope this is settled in the next decade, I'd love to read the comics. I don't want to buy $15 issues or even just read downloaded ones.

Criden
12-11-2008, 03:01 PM
I hope this is settled in the next decade, I'd love to read the comics. I don't want to buy $15 issues or even just read downloaded ones.

$15? Try $150 for a couple of them! I had some serious buyer's remorse until I read them.

andrew french
12-11-2008, 03:06 PM
$15? Try $150 for a couple of them! I had some serious buyer's remorse until I read them.

$150!

I hope there's a beautiful collection one day, when I'm 40 years old, and have most likely forgotten what a comic book is (when paper no longer exists, assumedly)

SMACK!
12-11-2008, 03:11 PM
Miracleman is an amazing piece of comic literature,and definitely near the top of my favorite comics, but I've always found it very ironic that the rights are in question of something that was created to be deliberately derivative.

SMACK!
12-11-2008, 03:12 PM
$15? Try $150 for a couple of them! I had some serious buyer's remorse until I read them.
The floppies are pretty cheap -- except for the Gaiman issues.

joeAR
12-11-2008, 03:16 PM
The floppies are pretty cheap -- except for the Gaiman issues.


And the last couple issues of Moore's run. Those get pricey.

Criden
12-11-2008, 03:19 PM
And the last couple issues of Moore's run. Those get pricey.

Yep--those are the ones I paid so much for.

Foolish Mortal
12-11-2008, 03:21 PM
Gaiman won his lawsuit against Todd McFarlane over the disputed rights. McFarlane had claimed he purchased all of Eclipse's assets including the rights to Miracleman. But he failed to prove that in court.

However, Mick Anglo, the guy who created Marvelman popped up and said when Eclipse Comics ceased publication, all the rights of Marvelman reverted back to him, and all other claims are void.

joeAR
12-11-2008, 03:27 PM
Gaiman won his lawsuit against Todd McFarlane over the disputed rights. McFarlane had claimed he purchased all of Eclipse's assets including the rights to Miracleman. But he failed to prove that in court.

However, Mick Anglo, the guy who created Marvelman popped up and said when Eclipse Comics ceased publication, all the rights of Marvelman reverted back to him, and all other claims are void.


God damn it! Make a deal with Gaimen, Mick. I want Hardcovers/reprints/new stories possibly.

Foolish Mortal
12-11-2008, 03:33 PM
God damn it! Make a deal with Gaimen, Mick. I want Hardcovers/reprints/new stories possibly.
Apparently Anglo isn't interested in making a deal. Or isn't getting the deal he wants. Maybe he is aware that Marvelman is a "hot" property now.

joeAR
12-11-2008, 03:39 PM
Apparently Anglo isn't interested in making a deal. Or isn't getting the deal he wants. Maybe he is aware that Marvelman is a "hot" property now.


Pay the man. Now

justjeffery
12-11-2008, 03:50 PM
The trial that Gaiman went through was over the rights to the things he created for McFarlane. Miricleman was mentioned during the trail as it was supposed to be traded to Gaiman, but never was... but the settlement itself had nothing to do with Miricleman, only the Gaiman creations.

Artie Pink
12-11-2008, 04:03 PM
The trial that Gaiman went through was over the rights to the things he created for McFarlane. Miricleman was mentioned during the trail as it was supposed to be traded to Gaiman, but never was... but the settlement itself had nothing to do with Miricleman, only the Gaiman creations.


Jeffery is correct - the lawsuit was over ownership of Angela and Cogliostro or whoever the fuck that is. Gaiman won. Which means that McFarlane couldn't use those characters and really not even reprint that stuff in trades without paying Gaiman for their use.

It was expected (by fandom) that Gaiman would settle with McFarlane by taking the Miracleman stuff.

But INSTEAD, Gaiman took the rights to Angela, et al. Which means McFarlane has to keep paying and paying if he wants to reprint the first few years of Spawn.

The speculation for this was 1) it might be more lucrative, and hits McFarlane right in his signature creation (though... Spawn really isn't a seller anymore, so I don't know how slick an idea that is); and 2) the rights to Miracleman are so screwed up, McFarlane may never have had them in the first place.

After the trial, it came out that the publisher who first "acquired" the rights to Miracleman for Moore in the first place may not have done so at all. At best, it's half-ass.

So the 90 year old creator of Marvelman is expected to claim a share in any use of that stuff. I assume if he passes away, his heirs will do the same.

Also soon after the trial, both sides issued Miracleman product: Gaiman released a sweet Bowen statue, and McFarlane released an action figure of "Man Of Miracles". No one blinked.

So who knows what's up.

Bottom line for me is: Gaiman is smarter than McFarlane. I'm sure Gaiman listened to his lawyer rather than being an arrogant prick. So if Gaiman didn't pursue it with the Toddler, then the rights must be screwed up with the original guy.

JimmyF1982
12-26-2008, 07:36 AM
anyone know where one could read this online? i'm not looking to DL it, just read some it while i'm sitting here at work.

Nick Spencer
12-26-2008, 07:42 AM
anyone know where one could read this online? i'm not looking to DL it, just read some it while i'm sitting here at work.

Umm... unless you DL it, I can't see how that would work.

JimmyF1982
12-26-2008, 07:47 AM
Umm... unless you DL it, I can't see how that would work.

i didn't know if there was a site that had the pages scanned to view online. the way CBR or Newsarama do previews of upcoming books.

Nick Spencer
12-26-2008, 07:48 AM
i didn't know if there was a site that had the pages scanned to view online. the way CBR or Newsarama do previews of upcoming books.

Sadly, probably not.

chess
12-26-2008, 09:50 AM
My solution may sound silly. I am not a lawyer but this is my answer...

Have someone reprint the books.

Strip the name Miracleman or Marvelman from the story and rename the characters. Pay the writers and artists for their reprinted work directly.

My reasoning is... a character is a character. The story was good because of the story. It isn't the character. If we renamed the character "Captain Shazam", the story would still work.

If anyone claims to own this new character and want to prove it in court, they must prove ownership. We see how crazy that is.

Gaimen and Buckingham can finish the story with characters they own. It will be the continuation of the story.

Forget this fight for a B character. As I state, the story was great despite the character. (Geez...Alan Moore's Supreme proved this.)

Rob Helmerichs
12-26-2008, 11:19 AM
But INSTEAD, Gaiman took the rights to Angela, et al. Which means McFarlane has to keep paying and paying if he wants to reprint the first few years of Spawn.

The speculation for this was 1) it might be more lucrative, and hits McFarlane right in his signature creation (though... Spawn really isn't a seller anymore, so I don't know how slick an idea that is); and 2) the rights to Miracleman are so screwed up, McFarlane may never have had them in the first place.
Gaiman was offered an Angela/Medieval Spawn for Miracleman/Marvelman swap. He said the reason he took the Angela/Medieval Spawn rights is because during discovery it turned out all McFarlane ever held were the rights to the Eclipse Miracleman logo.

McFarlane doesn't seem to understand this, and continues to claim he owns Marvelman/Miracleman. But the revelation that nobody ever bought the rights from Mick Anglo in the first place renders it all moot. I'm not sure why nothing has happened since...must be either Anglo just ain't dealing, or he's not asking for something anybody's willing to pay, or nobody can get in touch with him.

JimmyF1982
12-26-2008, 12:28 PM
My solution may sound silly. I am not a lawyer but this is my answer...

Have someone reprint the books.

Strip the name Miracleman or Marvelman from the story and rename the characters. Pay the writers and artists for their reprinted work directly.

My reasoning is... a character is a character. The story was good because of the story. It isn't the character. If we renamed the character "Captain Shazam", the story would still work.

If anyone claims to own this new character and want to prove it in court, they must prove ownership. We see how crazy that is.

Gaimen and Buckingham can finish the story with characters they own. It will be the continuation of the story.

Forget this fight for a B character. As I state, the story was great despite the character. (Geez...Alan Moore's Supreme proved this.)

fuck yea, unfortunately, noone would go for it. but that's def. a great idea.

c. page
12-26-2008, 01:09 PM
My solution may sound silly. I am not a lawyer but this is my answer...

Have someone reprint the books.

Strip the name Miracleman or Marvelman from the story and rename the characters. Pay the writers and artists for their reprinted work directly.

My reasoning is... a character is a character. The story was good because of the story. It isn't the character. If we renamed the character "Captain Shazam", the story would still work.

If anyone claims to own this new character and want to prove it in court, they must prove ownership. We see how crazy that is.

Gaimen and Buckingham can finish the story with characters they own. It will be the continuation of the story.

Forget this fight for a B character. As I state, the story was great despite the character. (Geez...Alan Moore's Supreme proved this.)

my understanding is that it goes beyond just the name. there are likely trademarks involved concerning logos, character designs, etc. that would probably prevent this from happening.

xhondax
12-26-2008, 03:12 PM
Gaiman was offered an Angela/Medieval Spawn for Miracleman/Marvelman swap. He said the reason he took the Angela/Medieval Spawn rights is because during discovery it turned out all McFarlane ever held were the rights to the Eclipse Miracleman logo.

McFarlane doesn't seem to understand this, and continues to claim he owns Marvelman/Miracleman. But the revelation that nobody ever bought the rights from Mick Anglo in the first place renders it all moot. I'm not sure why nothing has happened since...must be either Anglo just ain't dealing, or he's not asking for something anybody's willing to pay, or nobody can get in touch with him.

I remember something about this when it happened a couple of years back. Just thought they would have sorted it all out by now.
And wasn't there something with the quality of the film used to make the trades? I think I read that the film was ins such bad state that Gaiman didn't know if printing off of it was doable.

Fourthman
12-26-2008, 09:01 PM
I love this topic. I maybe paid 8 bucks for missing the first issue and got the rest at cover as they came out. Yay me.

Foolish Mortal
12-26-2008, 09:12 PM
my understanding is that it goes beyond just the name. there are likely trademarks involved concerning logos, character designs, etc. that would probably prevent this from happening.
Yep, there's still the issue about the original art.

majorjoe23
12-27-2008, 06:38 AM
Yep, there's still the issue about the original art.

I've got a page from issue 10 they can borrow for reprinting purposes.

Pat Shatner
07-15-2011, 07:43 AM
Resurrecting this thread because I haven't heard shit about Miracleman/Marvelman since Marvel ran the reprints last year. Any word on further plans that I may have missed?

The Hodag
07-15-2011, 08:03 AM
Resurrecting this thread because I haven't heard shit about Miracleman/Marvelman since Marvel ran the reprints last year. Any word on further plans that I may have missed?

Just had a notion: if Marvel went the route of introducing the character into the Marvel U (acknowledged as a risky notion, but with Sentry offed in the last event...), what if the final act of Fear Itself is where it happens? Big events are always meant to set up new initiatives for readers. I've never read Miracleman, but I gather we're talking Superman-level power - maybe just the kind of thing that'd be handy going up against Asgardian fear gods.

And offing sentry in The Siege could've been part of this long-term plan. Remove the unpopular Superman-level character in one event (maybe while the legal department finishes working out the kinks with Miracleman), then introduce the new one in the next event.

Maybe?

HomerGator
07-15-2011, 09:42 AM
You'd think that by now we would have at least begun to see printings of the Alan Moore stuff....

Rob Helmerichs
07-15-2011, 09:47 AM
You'd think that by now we would have at least begun to see printings of the Alan Moore stuff....
Apparently, they're still working on clearing the rights (they have to negotiate deals with each and every person who worked on it).

Mwstattel
07-15-2011, 09:49 AM
Just had a notion: if Marvel went the route of introducing the character into the Marvel U (acknowledged as a risky notion, but with Sentry offed in the last event...), what if the final act of Fear Itself is where it happens? Big events are always meant to set up new initiatives for readers. I've never read Miracleman, but I gather we're talking Superman-level power - maybe just the kind of thing that'd be handy going up against Asgardian fear gods.

And offing sentry in The Siege could've been part of this long-term plan. Remove the unpopular Superman-level character in one event (maybe while the legal department finishes working out the kinks with Miracleman), then introduce the new one in the next event.

Maybe?

Maybe. I could see Marvel trying to fuck with the character. Based on the response to Joe Q's announcement a while ago (about buying the rights to all of Mic Angelo's stuff) the only thing people generally care about is the Moore/Gaiman run. I would hope that Marvel got the message and plan to act accordingly.

HomerGator
07-15-2011, 09:52 AM
Apparently, they're still working on clearing the rights (they have to negotiate deals with each and every person who worked on it).

Well, that would certainly explain the delay...

KSChris
07-15-2011, 10:57 AM
Maybe. I could see Marvel trying to fuck with the character. Based on the response to Joe Q's announcement a while ago (about buying the rights to all of Mic Angelo's stuff) the only thing people generally care about is the Moore/Gaiman run. I would hope that Marvel got the message and plan to act accordingly.

I think they knew from the get-go that that's all people cared about.

I don't think they would've gone through all the trouble and the hoops to acquire the property if their goal wasn't to put the Moore/Gaiman stuff out.

Mwstattel
07-15-2011, 11:43 AM
I think they knew from the get-go that that's all people cared about.

I don't think they would've gone through all the trouble and the hoops to acquire the property if their goal wasn't to put the Moore/Gaiman stuff out.

I don't know. It feels like the expectation is that they'll use the character in the Marvel universe. The Moore/Gaiman stuff gives the character credibility that they'll probably try to exploit.

DaveCummings
07-15-2011, 11:44 AM
I don't know. It feels like the expectation is that they'll use the character in the Marvel universe. The Moore/Gaiman stuff gives the character credibility that they'll probably try to exploit.

Did Marvel run over your dog or something? You seem to have a mad on for them.

Mwstattel
07-15-2011, 11:56 AM
Did Marvel run over your dog or something? You seem to have a mad on for them.

Um. No. I'm not saying they'd be bad for doing so. But I personally don't think bringing Miracleman to the Marvel Universe is a good idea.

HomerGator
07-15-2011, 12:00 PM
Um. No. I'm not saying they'd be bad for doing so. But I personally don't think bringing Miracleman to the Marvel Universe is a good idea.

I don't, either. I think the character would be best served, at least for the first few years, by being in his own universe.

Mwstattel
07-15-2011, 12:07 PM
I don't, either. I think the character would be best served, at least for the first few years, by being in his own universe.

If Marvel can manage to untangle the mess that is the Miracleman litigation then I wouldn't blame them for cashing in. If and when that ever happens I'm going to cross my fingers and hope they're smart enough to get Gaiman to finish what he started. If they choose to bring him to the Marvel U I'll be tuning out.

Foolish Mortal
07-15-2011, 12:08 PM
It's taking so long because they have to tie all the loose ends in regards to the royalties of all the pencilers, inkers, and colorists that worked on the books.

Plus they have to make sure they have all the rights to the logos and packaging.

Olivier E.
07-15-2011, 12:09 PM
I don't, either. I think the character would be best served, at least for the first few years, by being in his own universe.

Gaiman and Buckingham will finish their story first, before he'll be introduced in the MU.

KSChris
07-15-2011, 12:10 PM
I don't know. It feels like the expectation is that they'll use the character in the Marvel universe. The Moore/Gaiman stuff gives the character credibility that they'll probably try to exploit.

If that was their goal, they probably could've started using him right away. They bought the rights to the character.. just not the Moore/Gaiman stuff. That's what's being held up.

KSChris
07-15-2011, 12:12 PM
If Marvel can manage to untangle the mess that is the Miracleman litigation then I wouldn't blame them for cashing in. If and when that ever happens I'm going to cross my fingers and hope their smart enough to get Gaiman to finish what he started. If they choose to bring him to the Marvel U I'll be tuning out.

I think Gaiman and Buckingham have both said they would love to finish what they they started if they could.

Foolish Mortal
07-15-2011, 12:19 PM
If Marvel can manage to untangle the mess that is the Miracleman litigation then I wouldn't blame them for cashing in. If and when that ever happens I'm going to cross my fingers and hope their smart enough to get Gaiman to finish what he started. If they choose to bring him to the Marvel U I'll be tuning out.

Tom Brevoort: “It should come as no surprise that while we have overcome 80 to 90% of all the loop closing that we have to do, there’s still more to be done. Everybody’s ready and lined up, and now the book’s been announced for two years. But we’ve spoken to Neil [Gaiman]. We’ve spoken to Mark Buckingham. Eventually, once every single thing is lined up, we’ll get to a point where they can come back, finish “The Silver Age” and do the “Dark Age” story they always had planned, and we’ll get the earlier four collections in some way, shape or form back into the marketplace.”

http://forbiddenplanet.co.uk/blog/2011/marvelman-taking-a-while-to-sort-out-tom-brevoort-surprised/ (http://forbiddenplanet.co.uk/blog/2011/marvelman-taking-a-while-to-sort-out-tom-brevoort-surprised/)

Of course, that doesn't mean Marvel can't or won't bring a version of Marvelman into the 616 universe. They don't have to use the Moore/Gaiman Marvelman.

Joshzilla
01-04-2013, 07:07 AM
Is Miracleman still happening at all at Marvel? Haven't heard a peep in a long time.

Foolish Mortal
01-04-2013, 07:13 AM
Is Miracleman still happening at all at Marvel? Haven't heard a peep in a long time.

Last I heard they're still ironing out who gets royalties and how much.

I hear Garry Leach is the main issue right now since he owns the full rights to the Warpsmith characters who play an important role in the Marvelman stories.

Joshzilla
01-04-2013, 07:19 AM
Last I heard they're still ironing out who gets royalties and how much.

I hear Garry Leach is the main issue right now since he owns the full rights to the Warpsmith characters who play an important role in the Marvelman stories.

That is odd that he would get full rights to the Warpsmiths, but whatever. Would be nice to get some more material.

Foolish Mortal
01-04-2013, 07:26 AM
That is odd that he would get full rights to the Warpsmiths, but whatever. Would be nice to get some more material.

Leach created the Warpsmith characters and apparently it was his and Moore's idea to do a crossover with Marvelman in Warrior magazine.

Artie Pink
01-04-2013, 07:33 AM
I've heard there are a couple of other problems:

Dez Skinn, who initiated the Marvelman revival and published them over in Warrior magazine in the UK, may never have had the rights to publish the character in the first place. Skinn also wants royalties.

While most of the major artists have signed off on this, some of the lesser artists have not. Like Chuck Beachum, who drew some issues in the middle of the run. Beachum is better known as writer Chuck Austen (he and his now ex-wife took Jane Austen's surname... ha ha, what a pussy), and if there's one thing worse than his writing, it's his art. :sick: So if he's in any way holding things up, they should just have Mark Buckingham or someone else redraw Beachum's pages.

Taxman
01-04-2013, 08:41 AM
While most of the major artists have signed off on this, some of the lesser artists have not. Like Chuck Beachum, who drew some issues in the middle of the run. Beachum is better known as writer Chuck Austen (he and his now ex-wife took Jane Austen's surname... ha ha, what a pussy), and if there's one thing worse than his writing, it's his art. :sick: So if he's in any way holding things up, they should just have Mark Buckingham or someone else redraw Beachum's pages.You don't like Austen's writing either, huh.

Gregory
01-04-2013, 08:44 AM
Was this the weakest lynchpin convention announcement by a major publisher?

S. Earl
01-04-2013, 08:48 AM
Was this the weakest lynchpin convention announcement by a major publisher?

Image United.

Taxman
01-04-2013, 08:49 AM
Was this the weakest lynchpin convention announcement by a major publisher?I had been hearing murmurs about Marvel getting Miracle Man for so long, it was more like a continuation than an actual announcement.

Foolish Mortal
01-04-2013, 08:57 AM
I've heard there are a couple of other problems:

Dez Skinn, who initiated the Marvelman revival and published them over in Warrior magazine in the UK, may never have had the rights to publish the character in the first place. Skinn also wants royalties.

While most of the major artists have signed off on this, some of the lesser artists have not. Like Chuck Beachum, who drew some issues in the middle of the run. Beachum is better known as writer Chuck Austen (he and his now ex-wife took Jane Austen's surname... ha ha, what a pussy), and if there's one thing worse than his writing, it's his art. :sick: So if he's in any way holding things up, they should just have Mark Buckingham or someone else redraw Beachum's pages.
As I understand it, he took the 'Austen' pseudonym to disassociate himself from his father who was apparently an asshole.

As for redrawing the art, yeah they could do that, but the 'completists' will raise hell about it.

Artie Pink
01-04-2013, 08:59 AM
As I understand it, he took the 'Austen' pseudonym to disassociate himself from his father who was apparently an asshole.

As for redrawing the art, yeah they could do that, but the 'completists' will raise hell about it.

Yes, I'm all for changing one's name to get away from loser family. But taking Jane Austen's name? At your wife's suggestion (who left him soon after)? That's pretty hilariously lame.

And agreed on the art. Though in a run with Alan Davis, John Totleben, etc, Chuck Beachum's art is the stinky-stink of the batch.

Taxman
01-04-2013, 09:02 AM
As for redrawing the art, yeah they could do that, but the 'completists' will raise hell about it.Just give them a couple of Austen trades to read, that will turn them around.

S. Earl
01-04-2013, 09:09 AM
Just give them a couple of Austen trades to read, that will turn them around.

War Machine is a Modern Masterwork!

Joshzilla
01-04-2013, 09:12 AM
Come to think of it, maybe it's better off as is. Trying to think who would/could write the inevitable Miracleman ongoing and other than Ellis, I can't think of anyone who would do it properly.

Foolish Mortal
01-04-2013, 09:15 AM
Come to think of it, maybe it's better off as is. Trying to think who would/could write the inevitable Miracleman ongoing and other than Ellis, I can't think of anyone who would do it properly.

Hickman.

Or Gaiman if he wants to commit to a new ongoing which he may or may not want to do.

Taxman
01-04-2013, 09:26 AM
War Machine is a Modern Masterwork!Don't give 'em that one.

Artie Pink
01-04-2013, 09:29 AM
Come to think of it, maybe it's better off as is. Trying to think who would/could write the inevitable Miracleman ongoing and other than Ellis, I can't think of anyone who would do it properly.


Hickman.

Or Gaiman if he wants to commit to a new ongoing which he may or may not want to do.

Gaiman and Buckingham were midway through their second arc, The Silver Age. I think their next issue was almost done when Eclipse pulled the plug in 1993. They've both said they want to continue and finish the arc. Gaiman's 1602 series was set up to fund the Marvels And Miracles LLC that was going to take over the project once Marvel worked out the particulars.

There's a history of handing off the series to the next creators, and there's also a precedent for an anthology by other creators. There are some great possibilities!

Gregory
01-04-2013, 09:32 AM
Who should be given Marvelman? Alan Davis. He's a better artist and writer now. He has history with the franchise, and he's a Marvel guy (these days).

I'm a Davis homer, it's true. But who else in Marvel right now has the pedigree to do this?

Artie Pink
01-04-2013, 09:32 AM
But.

When Gaiman won the lawsuit against McFarlane, it was widely believed he would ask for whatever claim on Miracleman Todd had as payment. He didn't. He asked for the Angela and Cogliostro (or whatever) rights.

Which is weird. Angela etc really don't have any market value, except for whatever Spawn reprints Todd may want to do. And how much could that sell?

So Gaiman's lawyers obviously advised him not to go for the Miracleman stuff. Meaning either Todd doesn't even have any claim, or that the lawyers thought the bigger picture was so entangled that it would have no value. Which is terrifying!

Foolish Mortal
01-04-2013, 09:33 AM
Gaiman and Buckingham were midway through their second arc, The Silver Age. I think their next issue was almost done when Eclipse pulled the plug in 1993. They've both said they want to continue and finish the arc. Gaiman's 1602 series was set up to fund the Marvels And Miracles LLC that was going to take over the project once Marvel worked out the particulars.

There's a history of handing off the series to the next creators, and there's also a precedent for an anthology by other creators. There are some great possibilities!

Gaiman already said he's ready to finish Silver Age. But I don't know what he'll commit to beyond that.

It's a sure bet there will be Marvelman books after Gaiman's story is done.

Joshzilla
01-04-2013, 09:36 AM
Hickman.

Or Gaiman if he wants to commit to a new ongoing which he may or may not want to do.

Hickman doesn't get characters, in my opinion. There's no life to them. Maybe he'll prove me wrong on Avengers or something but so far I'm not sold on him. Gaiman doesn't get action. Maybe they can co-write the book. That might actually be good.


Gaiman and Buckingham were midway through their second arc, The Silver Age. I think their next issue was almost done when Eclipse pulled the plug in 1993. They've both said they want to continue and finish the arc. Gaiman's 1602 series was set up to fund the Marvels And Miracles LLC that was going to take over the project once Marvel worked out the particulars.

There's a history of handing off the series to the next creators, and there's also a precedent for an anthology by other creators. There are some great possibilities!

I wasn't the biggest fan of Gaiman's work on Miracleman, but I know that I'm in the minority. The leaked issue of the Dark Age was good, though. I'm holding my ground that it would need Ellis.

Patton
01-04-2013, 09:37 AM
Hickman.

Or Gaiman if he wants to commit to a new ongoing which he may or may not want to do.

Yeah, Marvel actually has a few writers that do this type of thing well right now. Hickman, Remender and Aaron are all more than capable.

Joshzilla
01-04-2013, 09:37 AM
Who should be given Marvelman? Alan Davis. He's a better artist and writer now. He has history with the franchise, and he's a Marvel guy (these days).

I'm a Davis homer, it's true. But who else in Marvel right now has the pedigree to do this?

I'm a billion % on board with him on art.

S. Earl
01-04-2013, 09:37 AM
Hickman doesn't get characters, in my opinion. There's no life to them.

I'm sure you've been asked this before if you have brought this opinion up: did you read Fantastic Four?

Joshzilla
01-04-2013, 09:41 AM
I'm sure you've been asked this before if you have brought this opinion up: did you read Fantastic Four?

Nope, but I've heard great things. His indy stuff was uber-dry and turned me off, which is why I didn't try his FF.

Foolish Mortal
01-04-2013, 09:48 AM
As far as artists go, I can think of several that would be great fits for Marvelman. Alan Davis, Jae Lee, Chris Weston, Tommy Lee Edwards.

Artie Pink
01-04-2013, 09:49 AM
I wasn't the biggest fan of Gaiman's work on Miracleman, but I know that I'm in the minority.


I can understand this, and I actually avoided Gaiman's issues for a while. I mean, I figured there's no way to follow Moore's work on this.

But then I read them and I love them. He found totally new things to do, and even some old. I love his first arc, and his second arc for all appearances (there are two released, one leaked issues to read) was going to be FUCKING CRAZY in yet another new/old twist.. So I love Gaiman's Miracleman and would really love for him and Buckingham to finish it.

Artie Pink
01-04-2013, 09:50 AM
As far as artists go, I can think of several that would be great fits for Marvelman. Alan Davis, Jae Lee, Chris Weston, Tommy Lee Edwards.

Man. Those all sound great.

I'm sad that we seem to be putting more thought into this than Marvel. :sad:

Rob Helmerichs
01-04-2013, 09:51 AM
But.

When Gaiman won the lawsuit against McFarlane, it was widely believed he would ask for whatever claim on Miracleman Todd had as payment. He didn't. He asked for the Angela and Cogliostro (or whatever) rights.
That was his original plan. But on discovery, it was learned that all McFarlane owned of Miracleman/Marvelman was the Eclipse logo. So Gaiman instead asked for something that could conceivably have the slightest value some day.

S. Earl
01-04-2013, 09:53 AM
Nope, but I've heard great things. His indy stuff was uber-dry and turned me off, which is why I didn't try his FF.

Yeah, very much. He started giving his characters a bit more heart with his mainstream stuff.

Although I will say Time Cops in Planes (forgetting the title) has a really good family dynamic to it.

EDIT
Red Wing

Artie Pink
01-04-2013, 09:55 AM
That was his original plan. But on discovery, it was learned that all McFarlane owned of Miracleman/Marvelman was the Eclipse logo. So Gaiman instead asked for something that could conceivably have the slightest value some day.


Cool. I had hoped that was the case, but haven't seen it confirmed.

ssteve1011
01-04-2013, 12:17 PM
I've been waiting for years to have the opportunity to read Moore and gaimans miracleman run. I've come close to purchasing some of the high priced trades just so I have a chance to read them. It's frustrating.

scs
01-04-2013, 04:36 PM
But.

When Gaiman won the lawsuit against McFarlane, it was widely believed he would ask for whatever claim on Miracleman Todd had as payment. He didn't. He asked for the Angela and Cogliostro (or whatever) rights.

Which is weird. . . .The situation was a mess. It's still a mess, although likely a significantly smaller one. This Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracleman) describes the pre-Eclipse mess:
In 1982 when Warrior reintroduced Marvelman as its flagship feature, the rights to the character were allegedly held in a four-way split between Warrior editor Dez Skinn, writer Alan Moore and artist Garry Leach, who owned 30% each, and the originating publisher, Quality Communications, which owned 10%. As far as is known, Moore and Leach thought that Skinn had purchased the rights to the character from creator Mick Anglo and believed their ownership to be legitimate . . . However, in subsequent years Skinn admitted, in the fan book Kimota!, that he had never obtained the rights to the character, assuming there would be no interest in an obscure property owned by a dead company. Skinn says he agreed to pay Anglo only if his old work was reprinted, which he was for the Marvelman Special published in 1984.

When Leach left the strip and was replaced by Alan Davis, Moore, Skinn and Leach transferred part of their ostensible ownership of the character to Davis — with Skinn claiming 10% and Moore, Davis and Leach, 30% each. Moore and Leach continued to own the aspects of work they created.Then comes Eclipse (same article):
In 1985 Eclipse Comics bought the putative rights from Skinn and started reprinting Marvelman, retitling it Miracleman to placate Marvel Comics. Davis, stating that he wanted no more to do with Moore or the situation, gave his rights back to Leach. When Moore completed his story with issue 16 and Eclipse announced they wished to continue publishing, Moore gave his 30% share to writer Neil Gaiman, who would be taking over the title, and Gaiman divided that share between himself and artist Mark Buckingham.

Eclipse went bankrupt in 1994 . . .That leads to the post-Eclipse mess (same article):
In 1996, Todd McFarlane purchased Eclipse's creative assets, including the purported Miracleman rights, for a total of $40,000. In 1997, McFarlane and Neil Gaiman allegedly reached an agreement in which Gaiman would cede his ownership stake in characters he created for the Spawn comic book, in exchange for the rights to Miracleman.That eventually devolved to the famous lawsuit, wherein much of the data quoted above came out. In the course of that suit, it was revealed out that McFarlane had actually purchased little or nothing of Miracleman. Gaiman describes it (http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2004/02/last-legal-post-for-long-time.asp):
As part of the court case, we finally got to see the Miracleman paperwork. It turned out the entire paperwork that Todd hadn't sent me consisted of an expired Eclipse Trademark registration for the MM logo. From another source I also got to see the original contract, under which Eclipse had obtained their license to a part share in the Miracleman character, and it was explicit in saying that in case of Eclipse folding, or even substantially changing directors, that Eclipse's share in the rights to Miracleman would revert.

So one thing that the court case did establish was that Todd obviously didn't, as he had been claiming, own all of Miracleman. As far as I can tell, or any of the lawyers working with us on the case could tell, Todd probably doesn't actually own any share of Miracleman. He certainly has no copyright in any of the existing work.


So McFarlane didn't actually purchase the rights in Eclipses collapse, and trading them to Gaiman ultimately wasn't possible.

A couple of years ago Marvel bought rights from various folks, perhaps thinking they had them all. They made public statements that there would be an announcement 'soon.' Then things started dragging out. My guess is that Marvel found there were claimants they didn't know about, or ambiguities only revealed as they started comparing everyone's paperwork. If you actually read the article quoted so liberally above, you'll see that there are pre-Anglo uncertainties as well.

Marvel has been close-mouthed on the topic, probably wisely so. From their reprinting of the post-Fawcett-pre-Warrior stuff I feel safe in saying that they have made satisfactory agreements with Mick Angelo and/or Dezz Skinn and/or others about the pre-Warrior materiel. But that may not mean much; IMHO those books weren't worth much and the rightholders may have let them go for a song. The Moore and Gaiman runs are undoubtedly more valuable.

I was very hopeful that Marvel buying up large chunks of the rights would ultimately result in the completion of the in-process arc, perhaps even the Dark Age that Gaiman et. al. envisioned. Given how long it's been, the declining value of the characters and the complications from the Warmsmiths, I've returned to an assumption that we won't see it ever. Perhaps some day I will be pleasantly surprised.

Foolish Mortal
01-04-2013, 06:14 PM
The logo and name issue aren't that important. They can easily change the logo back to the old one in the art, and Marvel was never going to use the 'Miracleman' name anyway. They were going to restore it back to the original Marvelman name, which they own lock, stock and barrel.

Artie Pink
01-04-2013, 07:45 PM
The situation was a mess. It's still a mess, although likely a significantly smaller one. This Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracleman) describes the pre-Eclipse mess:Then comes Eclipse (same article):That leads to the post-Eclipse mess (same article):That eventually devolved to the famous lawsuit, wherein much of the data quoted above came out. In the course of that suit, it was revealed out that McFarlane had actually purchased little or nothing of Miracleman. Gaiman describes it (http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2004/02/last-legal-post-for-long-time.asp):

So McFarlane didn't actually purchase the rights in Eclipses collapse, and trading them to Gaiman ultimately wasn't possible.

A couple of years ago Marvel bought rights from various folks, perhaps thinking they had them all. They made public statements that there would be an announcement 'soon.' Then things started dragging out. My guess is that Marvel found there were claimants they didn't know about, or ambiguities only revealed as they started comparing everyone's paperwork. If you actually read the article quoted so liberally above, you'll see that there are pre-Anglo uncertainties as well.

Marvel has been close-mouthed on the topic, probably wisely so. From their reprinting of the post-Fawcett-pre-Warrior stuff I feel safe in saying that they have made satisfactory agreements with Mick Angelo and/or Dezz Skinn and/or others about the pre-Warrior materiel. But that may not mean much; IMHO those books weren't worth much and the rightholders may have let them go for a song. The Moore and Gaiman runs are undoubtedly more valuable.

I was very hopeful that Marvel buying up large chunks of the rights would ultimately result in the completion of the in-process arc, perhaps even the Dark Age that Gaiman et. al. envisioned. Given how long it's been, the declining value of the characters and the complications from the Warmsmiths, I've returned to an assumption that we won't see it ever. Perhaps some day I will be pleasantly surprised.

Nice recap, scs, thanks!

S. Earl
01-30-2013, 03:38 PM
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/01/30/marvel-trademarks-kimota/

majorjoe23
01-30-2013, 03:41 PM
I'm surprised they hadnt already taken care of that.

S. Earl
01-30-2013, 03:49 PM
I really hope this doesn't mean KIMOTA shirts are on the way

The Zevad
01-30-2013, 03:56 PM
I'm surprised they hadnt already taken care of that.

I'm guessing with the insanity of getting deals with the multiple artists and having to deal with the rights issue with the Warpsmiths, Big Ben, and other characters it slipped their mind. I do not want to imagine the stress those lawyers are going through trying to lock down multiple deals.

The Zevad
03-21-2013, 06:08 PM
I'm never going to read the Gaiman stuff am I?

*SIGH*

Foolish Mortal
03-21-2013, 06:13 PM
I'm never going to read the Gaiman stuff am I?

*SIGH*

Yes, I think something's going down this year.

BobRoss
03-21-2013, 06:19 PM
Yes, I think something's going down this year.
I agree. I'm thinking something is going to be announced at ComicCon this year. We already know Gaiman is bringing Angela into the Marvel U. I'm pretty sure Marvel Man is not too far behind.

Rob Helmerichs
03-21-2013, 07:14 PM
I agree. I'm thinking something is going to be announced at ComicCon this year. We already know Gaiman is bringing Angela into the Marvel U. I'm pretty sure Marvel Man is not too far behind.
I doubt they will bring Marvelman to the Marvel U. That would be a serious mistake; it's very much its own thing.

But I seriously hope whatever behind-the-scenes drama has been holding this up has been resolved or will be soon. I can't wait for both the conclusion, and the inevitable deluxe editions of the whole story.

dEnny!
03-21-2013, 07:40 PM
I'm only two issues away from having all 24.

Foolish Mortal
03-21-2013, 07:42 PM
I doubt they will bring Marvelman to the Marvel U. That would be a serious mistake; it's very much its own thing.

But I seriously hope whatever behind-the-scenes drama has been holding this up has been resolved or will be soon. I can't wait for both the conclusion, and the inevitable deluxe editions of the whole story.

I don't think Marvel spent this much time, money and effort to get Marvelman just reprint the Moore books and finish Gaiman's story. They want a version of Marvelman in the 616 universe too.

JJ Fresh
03-21-2013, 07:43 PM
Doing a reread of all the issues. :cool: It took me a year or two to get them all.

I really hope to see that Totleben goodness in a flashy hardcover some day.

russw
03-21-2013, 07:45 PM
I agree. I'm thinking something is going to be announced at ComicCon this year. We already know Gaiman is bringing Angela into the Marvel U. I'm pretty sure Marvel Man is not too far behind.

I think the Angela thing is odd... doesn't Gaiman share ownership of that with McFarlane?

JJ Fresh
03-21-2013, 08:18 PM
I think the Angela thing is odd... doesn't Gaiman share ownership of that with McFarlane?

Nope. He owns it 100% due to the court litigation. As well as characters like Cogliostro and Medeval Spawn (the latter I find odd because its just an offshoot of the McFarlane creation).

The Zevad
03-21-2013, 08:21 PM
I doubt they will bring Marvelman to the Marvel U. That would be a serious mistake; it's very much its own thing.

But I seriously hope whatever behind-the-scenes drama has been holding this up has been resolved or will be soon. I can't wait for both the conclusion, and the inevitable deluxe editions of the whole story.

I think the original story will be its own universe. They may make a 616 version of Mike Moran or have another one crossover from another universe.

JHester
03-21-2013, 08:23 PM
Nope. He owns it 100% due to the court litigation. As well as characters like Cogliostro and Medeval Spawn (the latter I find odd because its just an offshoot of the McFarlane creation).

McFarlane would have a damn stroke if Medeval Spawn showed up in the Marvel U.

majorjoe23
03-22-2013, 04:53 AM
Nope. He owns it 100% due to the court litigation. As well as characters like Cogliostro and Medeval Spawn (the latter I find odd because its just an offshoot of the McFarlane creation).

Are you sure? My understanding is either can use that characters, they just have to pay the other one when they do.

Artie Pink
03-22-2013, 05:14 AM
Are you sure? My understanding is either can use that characters, they just have to pay the other one when they do.

That's what I thought, too... but I read somewhere that may not be the case and Gaiman may own her 100%. Though... Wikipedia (I know, I know) says she is owned 50/50. Hmmm.

OK, well if Angela is still co-owned by McFarlane, then here's my theory:

This will be a bit of a windfall for McFarlane. Relatively speaking, anyway... I mean, c'mon, he's living off the scraps of revenue from Walking Dead action figures these days.

So, why would Marvel do this? To grease the wheels to get Todd to relinquish whatever Miracleman rights he *thinks* he has (last I heard it was the logo and chest-emblem... notably the logo and chest-emblem have been different on Marvel's new covers for the classic collections). That, or they want him to draw Spider-Man again.

moonspider
03-22-2013, 05:36 AM
That, or they want him to draw Spider-Man again.


I know I would

Foolish Mortal
03-22-2013, 06:33 AM
The thing is, the rights issue only pertains to republishing the Moore-Gaimen books, and finishing Gaimen's story. (From what I've read, Garry Leach is one of the last hold-outs)

But Marvel doesn't have to wait for that if they want to introduce a Marvelman into the 616 universe. They can do that right now.

Foolish Mortal
03-26-2013, 01:35 PM
Wait Six Months Until Marvelman (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/03/26/wait-six-months-until-marvelman/)


At FablesCon this weekend, one Little Bleeder found himself chatting with Fables co-creator Mark Buckingham in the Kill Shakespeare bar.

The Angela news had hit, and people were talking about the possible return of Marvelman/Miracleman with Neil Gaiman and Buckingham at Marvel. So our Little Bleeder asked him.

Mark’s replied “wait six months”. When asked if he would go back to draw again, he replied “Oh yes. I’d have to take some time off from Fables but yes.”

The Zevad
03-26-2013, 06:05 PM
The thing is, the rights issue only pertains to republishing the Moore-Gaimen books, and finishing Gaimen's story. (From what I've read, Garry Leach is one of the last hold-outs)

But Marvel doesn't have to wait for that if they want to introduce a Marvelman into the 616 universe. They can do that right now.


And Leach owns the Warpsmiths. Hey anybody knows about the Big Ben rights thing? Cause that was another character that showed up in the the MiracleMan run.

EDIT:

http://dezskinn.com/

Dez Skinn has the character up for sale.

Foolish Mortal
03-26-2013, 06:13 PM
And Leach owns the Warpsmiths. Hey anybody knows about the Big Ben rights thing? Cause that was another character that showed up in the the MiracleMan run.

EDIT:

http://dezskinn.com/

Dez Skinn has the character up for sale.

I recall when Skinn tried to stake a claim on the Marvelman rights, but that proved to be much about nothing. The only thing he can lay claim to is Big Ben which he created.

The Zevad
03-26-2013, 06:41 PM
I recall when Skinn tried to stake a claim on the Marvelman rights, but that proved to be much about nothing. The only thing he can lay claim to is Big Ben which he created.

Oh yeah I remember that. Foolish move on his end.

SighClops
03-27-2013, 05:54 AM
The thing is, the rights issue only pertains to republishing the Moore-Gaimen books, and finishing Gaimen's story. (From what I've read, Garry Leach is one of the last hold-outs)

But Marvel doesn't have to wait for that if they want to introduce a Marvelman into the 616 universe. They can do that right now.

What's the reasoning for holding out?

Foolish Mortal
03-27-2013, 06:36 AM
What's the reasoning for holding out?

The bone of contention appears to always have been about who's entitled to what percentage of royalties.