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Generic Poster
12-10-2008, 12:57 PM
This sort of thing really, really pisses me off:


DD: Here’s the conundrum on this one. And this is reflective of the world that we live in now – the world of collected editions. The R.I.P. story was always meant to play through to the end of Final Crisis - always. The thing is, we had to come up with a very complete story in “Batman R.I.P.” as it existed in its title. The reality is that the “Batman R.I.P.” story does not conclude until Final Crisis #6. There are also issues #682 and #683 of Batman that feed directly into Final Crisis #6, and we’ll have a big finale to the Batman storyline. That’s how it plays out.

But as I said, because we live in the world of collected editions, we needed a conclusion in the Batman series, so that we could collect it properly within Batman, without having to bring in segments of Final Crisis to complete the story.

NRAMA: So – fundamentally, “Batman R.I.P” did not end in Batman #681?

DD: Correct. We have the two parts that we’re in the middle of now, and they lead us into Final Crisis #6 which gives us a definite conclusion to the Batman story. That’s how Grant designed the story from the start, and that’s how the story plays out. So, the people who are looking for the big finale, the stuff that Grant was talking about – he knows how big an ending he has, because he wrote it in Final Crisis #6. That story has been so planned out that it reflects events from the pages of Final Crisis #1 in order to pull it all together.

So I spend months buying Batman but NOT Final Crisis with the (apparently silly) expectation that the Batman story would fucking conclude in Batman, and then I get to find out I actually needed to be reading Final Crisis to get the real end of the story? So, every time I buy a monthly book from DC I'm gambling as to whether the story will actually be finished within that book, and not one I'm not even buying?

I've pre-ordered through the Gaiman issues, but I'm done after that.

Adrian B AWESOME
12-10-2008, 12:59 PM
Eh, after reading #5, it basically tells you what's going to happen in 683 as well...

Ray G.
12-10-2008, 01:00 PM
In Grant Morrison's world, all comics are one.

bachman
12-10-2008, 01:00 PM
Yeah, that sucks. I planned on buying the trades of both stories anyway, but I can defiintely see the frustration this would cause someone who only follows Batman.

Evan Wiener
12-10-2008, 01:02 PM
That's the dilemma of in-continuity comics and the events they're driven by. They're constantly trying to up-sell you more of their titles, but not because they're so well-written, but because they're just tied together.

Were just as many bitter about Civil War's ending, with the surprise in Capt. America #25 a week later?

These events used to be regulated within a title or family of titles, with minor repercussions being shown in other universe books.

These days, it's main event mini, with everything that can realistically get tied in, being tied in. Marvel seems to be more creator-focused on the opt-in or encouraged-in process, while DC seems less organized in that regard. They've gotten better with it, though, since Countdown. I'm not crazy about all the one-shot specials or silly number of minis floating around with Final Crisis, though. It's hard to keep track.

Adrian B AWESOME
12-10-2008, 01:02 PM
I do have to say if you aren't reading Final Crisis, you're doing yourself a disservice. After an incredibly rocky start, it's become completely awesome. Every issue is better than the last.

NickT
12-10-2008, 01:03 PM
I do have to say if you aren't reading Final Crisis, you're doing yourself a disservice. After an incredibly rocky start, it's become completely awesome. Every issue is better than the last.

New issue this week?

Ray G.
12-10-2008, 01:04 PM
New issue this week?

Yep. Pretty good, too.

Petyr Baelish
12-10-2008, 01:06 PM
If the editors backpedaled any faster they'd go back in time. Guess this is their way of salvaging the tepid reaction to the R.I.P. conclusion.

Jew Mafia
12-10-2008, 01:07 PM
You'd think they could have done a better job of soliciting it that way or at least mentioning it at the end of #681 or a DC Nation.

Generic Poster
12-10-2008, 01:07 PM
I do have to say if you aren't reading Final Crisis, you're doing yourself a disservice. After an incredibly rocky start, it's become completely awesome. Every issue is better than the last.

Glad to hear people are liking it, but I don't have the time, money or inclination to read everything DC puts out, and when they try to "make" me do so by pulling shit like this, it just makes me inclined to read none of it.

Generic Poster
12-10-2008, 01:08 PM
If the editors backpedaled any faster they'd go back in time. Guess this is their way of salvaging the tepid reaction to the R.I.P. conclusion.

A distinct possibility.

Adrian B AWESOME
12-10-2008, 01:09 PM
Wait, what?

Grant's been saying Batman dovetails into FC all year. He said it at New York back in April!

NickT
12-10-2008, 01:09 PM
You'd think they could have done a better job of soliciting it that way or at least mentioning it at the end of #681 or a DC Nation.
That confuses me too. I mean, wouldn't that potentially increase sales?

WilliamRichard1985
12-10-2008, 01:09 PM
Besides GL and the upcoming Rebirth,I'm done with DC and all their fucked up ways.

Didio is such a joke.

Jew Mafia
12-10-2008, 01:11 PM
Wait, what?

Grant's been saying Batman dovetails into FC all year. He said it at New York back in April!

I read that too, but I figured the events would lead-in to Bat's involvement with FC. Not so much as the direct finale of RIP.

Petyr Baelish
12-10-2008, 01:12 PM
Wait, what?

Grant's been saying Batman dovetails into FC all year. He said it at New York back in April!

Funny, my copy of Batman # 681 said "conclusion" on the cover. Perhaps it was a misprint.

Lyfeforce
12-10-2008, 01:12 PM
I read that too, but I figured the events would lead-in to Bat's involvement with FC. Not so much as the direct finale of RIP.

This was my understanding as well. Guess I'm wrong.

Jew Mafia
12-10-2008, 01:13 PM
That's the dilemma of in-continuity comics and the events they're driven by. They're constantly trying to up-sell you more of their titles, but not because they're so well-written, but because they're just tied together.

Were just as many bitter about Civil War's ending, with the surprise in Capt. America #25 a week later?

These events used to be regulated within a title or family of titles, with minor repercussions being shown in other universe books.

These days, it's main event mini, with everything that can realistically get tied in, being tied in. Marvel seems to be more creator-focused on the opt-in or encouraged-in process, while DC seems less organized in that regard. They've gotten better with it, though, since Countdown. I'm not crazy about all the one-shot specials or silly number of minis floating around with Final Crisis, though. It's hard to keep track.

I thought the way Civil War ended and what happened with Cap was handled pretty well actually.

Adrian B AWESOME
12-10-2008, 01:15 PM
Funny, my copy of Batman # 681 said "conclusion" on the cover. Perhaps it was a misprint.

WAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!

WAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

Good Lord, people.

Generic Poster
12-10-2008, 01:21 PM
WAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!

WAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

Good Lord, people.

You seriously think that my complaint is invalid?

Adrian B AWESOME
12-10-2008, 01:22 PM
You seriously think that my complaint is invalid?

Didn't say that, but a lot of it is merely bitching and moaning.

Petyr Baelish
12-10-2008, 01:22 PM
WAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!

WAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

Good Lord, people.

Some of us prefer our powerless vigilantes detached from the sloppy superheroics of bland, ultimately wasteful crossovers.

Generic Poster
12-10-2008, 01:22 PM
I read that too, but I figured the events would lead-in to Bat's involvement with FC. Not so much as the direct finale of RIP.

Yeah, me too. "Dovetails into" is distinctly different than "concludes in."

Adrian B AWESOME
12-10-2008, 01:22 PM
Some of us prefer our powerless vigilantes detached from the sloppy superheroics of bland, ultimately wasteful crossovers.

Yeah, uh huh.

LordKinbote
12-10-2008, 01:23 PM
Besides GL and the upcoming Rebirth,I'm done with DC and all their fucked up ways.

Didio is such a joke.

"Screw animal cruelty! I'm never eating meat again!

...except for chicken. I like chicken too much to ever give THAT up."

Lyfeforce
12-10-2008, 01:24 PM
I thought the way Civil War ended and what happened with Cap was handled pretty well actually.

I'm agreeing with you again. Also, Marvel's recap page helps immensely in that regard.

I haven't gotten to the end of RIP yet, but has there been any indicator in the books, a la "to be continued in Final Crisis" that the story goes on from here?

Petyr Baelish
12-10-2008, 01:24 PM
Yeah, uh huh.

Well, that and we passed on a sip when they were passing around the Grant Morrison Kool Aid.

Dan-C
12-10-2008, 01:24 PM
Good to know that one of the two series I consider utter disappointments right now has its grand finale in the other utterly disappointing series.

Petyr Baelish
12-10-2008, 01:25 PM
I haven't gotten to the end of RIP yet, but has there been any indicator in the books, a la "to be continued in Final Crisis" that the story goes on from here?

No, the implication was that through the aftermath in upcoming issues his final fate would be revealed. Nothing about Final Crisis.

Adrian B AWESOME
12-10-2008, 01:26 PM
Well, that and we passed on a sip when they were passing around the Grant Morrison Kool Aid.

Flavor-Aid.

Adrian B AWESOME
12-10-2008, 01:28 PM
I'm agreeing with you again. Also, Marvel's recap page helps immensely in that regard.

I haven't gotten to the end of RIP yet, but has there been any indicator in the books, a la "to be continued in Final Crisis" that the story goes on from here?

I will put money on Batman #683 ending with "Continues in Final Crisis #6."

RIP is done. Kaput. People are looking for it to continue so that they can figure out who exactly Doc Hurt is. This is merely the finale of Morrison's Batman run.

Jason California
12-10-2008, 01:32 PM
This sort of thing really, really pisses me off:



So I spend months buying Batman but NOT Final Crisis with the (apparently silly) expectation that the Batman story would fucking conclude in Batman, and then I get to find out I actually needed to be reading Final Crisis to get the real end of the story? So, every time I buy a monthly book from DC I'm gambling as to whether the story will actually be finished within that book, and not one I'm not even buying?

I've pre-ordered through the Gaiman issues, but I'm done after that.


Yeah, I think you are silly. For the last year we have been hearing about the death of Batman. Batman becoming a New New God. Grant Morrison is writing both stories. Honestly I don't think there has been any information that has lead me to believe that these 2 stories would not be interlinked.

Lyfeforce
12-10-2008, 01:33 PM
I will put money on Batman #683 ending with "Continues in Final Crisis #6."

RIP is done. Kaput. People are looking for it to continue so that they can figure out who exactly Doc Hurt is. This is merely the finale of Morrison's Batman run.

Considering the chatter this is making, I wouldn't be shocked either. If we're talking about it, I'm sure others much closer to the projects are doing the same.

Also, i thought he had a break and then one more arc. Man, keeping tabs on this is a chore.

joeAR
12-10-2008, 01:34 PM
Yeah, I think you are silly. For the last year we have been hearing about the death of Batman. Batman becoming a New New God. Grant Morrison is writing both stories. Honestly I don't think there has been any information that has lead me to believe that these 2 stories would not be interlinked.


See, the problem with this is that not everyone reads the inerweb for comic book news therefore a good portion of Batman readers have no idea that story is going to continue in Final Crisis #6. Should have said so in the last issue of RIP.

Generic Poster
12-10-2008, 01:37 PM
Yeah, I think you are silly. For the last year we have been hearing about the death of Batman. Batman becoming a New New God. Grant Morrison is writing both stories. Honestly I don't think there has been any information that has lead me to believe that these 2 stories would not be interlinked.

In addition to not having the time or money to buy everything DC puts out, I also don't have time to parse every rumor to determine what stories are going to be concluded where. Which mean, I guess, I shouldn't be buying monthly comics from DC.

Petyr Baelish
12-10-2008, 01:37 PM
Should have said so in the last issue of RIP.

And again I believe this is a last minute reaction to an outpouring of confusion and disappointment in the R.I.P. conclusion.

"See, what we really meant was..."

half guard
12-10-2008, 01:38 PM
"Screw animal cruelty! I'm never eating meat again!

...except for chicken. I like chicken too much to ever give THAT up."

:lol:

Xander Boune
12-10-2008, 01:41 PM
Is the final issue of Morrison's Batman supposed to take place before this week's issue of Final Crisis? I'm a pretty big defender of both series but I really feel like I missed something.

Evan Wiener
12-10-2008, 01:43 PM
You'd think they could have done a better job of soliciting it that way or at least mentioning it at the end of #681 or a DC Nation.

They should have said "find out more about the fate of Batman in Final Crisis" at the end of the last issue of RIP.

Jew Mafia
12-10-2008, 01:47 PM
To be fair, DC did do a nice job soliciting and warning people that the Kingdom Come story would branch out into the JSA annual and into the 3 KC specials. So it's kind of surprising that they dropped the ball with this. An I don't think the screw up takes away from Grant's storytelling, because I enjoyed RIP (minus the flat end) and FC has been getting better. Still, you can't ignore that it's a bit of a mess and DD being head honcho rightly deserves some of the criticism.

Joe Kalicki
12-10-2008, 01:54 PM
Seems to me this is a ridiculous complaint.

The story called Batman RIP is over. It does not continue anywhere else.

Its aftermath is taking place in the Batman title.

Batman, the character (or at leats Bruce Wayne), his story is continuing on in Final Crisis.

They're all very distinct things. No one was lied to or getting ripped off.

ClintP
12-10-2008, 01:56 PM
I just read GL. Unless they have a Batman Beyond comic coming out, I don't plan to branch out any more.

Adrian B AWESOME
12-10-2008, 01:57 PM
Seems to me this is a ridiculous complaint.

The story called Batman RIP is over. It does not continue anywhere else.

Its aftermath is taking place in the Batman title.

Batman, the character (or at leats Bruce Wayne), his story is continuing on in Final Crisis.

They're all very distinct things. No one was lied to or getting ripped off.

Much better than anything my boorish mind can come up with.

Master Jack Rabbitt
12-10-2008, 01:58 PM
Sweet. Both titles continue to impress.

Dan-C
12-10-2008, 01:59 PM
Yeah, I think you are silly. For the last year we have been hearing about the death of Batman. Batman becoming a New New God. Grant Morrison is writing both stories. Honestly I don't think there has been any information that has lead me to believe that these 2 stories would not be interlinked.

I don't intend to aim this rant in your direction, but there hasn't been any information to think the two series would be tied together. Sure Morrison is writing both, but that doesn't really mean shit in this age of crossovers, where everything is labled clearly as part of the crossover. DC should have at least said publicly BEFORE all of this B.S. that the RIP arc would end, then there would be some additional issues, and all of that dovetails into Final Crisis. Until I read that, I had NO clue, absolutely none whatsoever there was a direct relationship between the two series. There isn't crossover with ANY of the major DC books - the Superman line even has its own crossover going on. What would make any non-hardcore fan think that all of this lead directly in to FC 6?

Even when I went into the LCS last week and talked to the workers they both told me the same thing: last week was the last Morrison Batman issue. Then the Gaiman issues. That's it. No mention of FC 6. If retailers don't even know, DC has done a terrible job of getting the word out.

This event has been such a giant clusterfuck

Generic Poster
12-10-2008, 01:59 PM
the story called batman rip is over. It does not continue anywhere else.

. . .


nrama: So – fundamentally, “batman r.i.p” did not end in batman #681?

Dd: Correct. We have the two parts that we’re in the middle of now, and they lead us into final crisis #6 which gives us a definite conclusion to the batman story.

NickT
12-10-2008, 02:04 PM
Of course, it's not impossible that Didio phrased that really badly. Captain America #25 wasn't the conclusion to Civil War, maybe FC will be similar for RIP?

Joe Kalicki
12-10-2008, 02:04 PM
I don't intend to aim this rant in your direction, but there hasn't been any information to think the two series would be tied together. Sure Morrison is writing both, but that doesn't really mean shit in this age of crossovers, where everything is labled clearly as part of the crossover. DC should have at least said publicly BEFORE all of this B.S. that the RIP arc would end, then there would be some additional issues, and all of that dovetails into Final Crisis. Until I read that, I had NO clue, absolutely none whatsoever there was a direct relationship between the two series. There isn't crossover with ANY of the major DC books - the Superman line even has its own crossover going on. What would make any non-hardcore fan think that all of this lead directly in to FC 6?

Even when I went into the LCS last week and talked to the workers they both told me the same thing: last week was the last Morrison Batman issue. Then the Gaiman issues. That's it. No mention of FC 6. If retailers don't even know, DC has done a terrible job of getting the word out.

This event has been such a giant clusterfuck

But you don't need to read Final Crisis at all if you don't want to and the story you read is still over and had a conclusion.

And if you don't want to read FC and you still want to read Batman there are no crossovers. You can still read it freely. It's not even about Bruce Wayne anymore for the forseeable future.


. . .

The story called Batman RIP is over. Just because a story has ramifications after it's completed doesn't mean it isn't over. If that was the case, then people who read Action Comics 1 in 1938 must be getting pretty impatient to see how it all ends.

Tony Bang
12-10-2008, 02:05 PM
The conflict of RIP was Batman vs. The Black Glove. That was ended in the main Batman book.

Ashwin Pande
12-10-2008, 02:06 PM
Of course, it's not impossible that Didio phrased that really badly. Captain America #25 wasn't the conclusion to Civil War, maybe FC will be similar for RIP?

DiDio is terrible at interviews. He doesn't have the salesman talent that Quesada has. He always sounds like he's apologising or nervous about what he has to say.

Jason California
12-10-2008, 02:07 PM
I don't intend to aim this rant in your direction, but there hasn't been any information to think the two series would be tied together. Sure Morrison is writing both, but that doesn't really mean shit in this age of crossovers, where everything is labled clearly as part of the crossover. DC should have at least said publicly BEFORE all of this B.S. that the RIP arc would end, then there would be some additional issues, and all of that dovetails into Final Crisis. Until I read that, I had NO clue, absolutely none whatsoever there was a direct relationship between the two series. There isn't crossover with ANY of the major DC books - the Superman line even has its own crossover going on. What would make any non-hardcore fan think that all of this lead directly in to FC 6?

Even when I went into the LCS last week and talked to the workers they both told me the same thing: last week was the last Morrison Batman issue. Then the Gaiman issues. That's it. No mention of FC 6. If retailers don't even know, DC has done a terrible job of getting the word out.

This event has been such a giant clusterfuck

I guess this just goes to show that intelligent people can see the same information and walk away with 2 compeltely different understandings.

Generic Poster
12-10-2008, 02:07 PM
Of course, it's not impossible that Didio phrased that really badly. Captain America #25 wasn't the conclusion to Civil War, maybe FC will be similar for RIP?

Maybe, which would be fine.

Fake Pat
12-10-2008, 02:08 PM
The story called Batman RIP is over.

Funny, that's not what the guy who's in charge of the entire thing says.

Joe Kalicki
12-10-2008, 02:09 PM
The conflict of RIP was Batman vs. The Black Glove. That was ended in the main Batman book.

Exactly. It's like every now and then people forget that ongoing characters don't live happily ever after or die at the end of every story.

Which is pretty ironic considering the end of RIP.

Joe Kalicki
12-10-2008, 02:10 PM
Funny, that's not what the guy who's in charge of the entire thing says.

The interviewer phrased the question in that way, but his answers say the exact opposite.

Fake Pat
12-10-2008, 02:10 PM
Which is pretty ironic considering the end of RIP.

Wait, you read FC #6 already?

What happens?

Fake Pat
12-10-2008, 02:12 PM
The interviewer phrased the question in that way, but his answers say the exact opposite.

Not at all.

nrama: So – fundamentally, “batman r.i.p” did not end in batman #681?

Dd: Correct. We have the two parts that we’re in the middle of now, and they lead us into final crisis #6 which gives us a definite conclusion to the batman story.

"Correct" does not mean "the exact opposite of what you said is right".

Joe Kalicki
12-10-2008, 02:15 PM
Wait, you read FC #6 already?

What happens?

Of course I have not, but it's not at all relevent to Batman RIP being finished and having as conclusive an ending as an ongoing comic book arc could have.


Not at all.

nrama: So – fundamentally, “batman r.i.p” did not end in batman #681?

Dd: Correct. We have the two parts that we’re in the middle of now, and they lead us into final crisis #6 which gives us a definite conclusion to the batman story.

"Correct" does not mean "the exact opposite of what you said is right".

Just because the two issues after RIP "lead into," which doesn't mean "cross-over with," Final Crisis, doesn't mean the story is still magically going on despite having an ending.

The fate of Batman's character is not at all the same issue as the ending of the story arc.

Petyr Baelish
12-10-2008, 02:24 PM
This thread has devolved into semantical quicksand.

Ashwin Pande
12-10-2008, 02:26 PM
Ok... just what the fuck happened in FC #5?

I loved the Darkseid speech but what the fuck happened? Did the Universe collapse into evil? Who was the guy on the last page? Was that the Monitor dude or was that Darkseid reborn into a new body? What the fuck was going on?

Joe Kalicki
12-10-2008, 02:27 PM
This thread has devolved into semantical quicksand.

It started out raging against semantics in the first place.

The Zevad
12-10-2008, 02:47 PM
Not the first time. I like self contained limited series. I don't have to read one shots and other comics to get the whole story. Which pissed me off with Infinity Crusade in the 90's. DC pulled this shame shit with the OMAC limited. We had to go get 4 issues of Superman to see Wonder Woman kill Max Lord and come back to the mini. WTF reall. Eh whatever.

Dan-C
12-10-2008, 02:49 PM
But you don't need to read Final Crisis at all if you don't want to and the story you read is still over and had a conclusion.

And if you don't want to read FC and you still want to read Batman there are no crossovers. You can still read it freely. It's not even about Bruce Wayne anymore for the forseeable future.


Technically, you are correct. But how thick did Marvel lay on the "you will probably want to buy Captain America #25"

justjeffery
12-10-2008, 02:52 PM
Ok... just what the fuck happened in FC #5?

I loved the Darkseid speech but what the fuck happened? Did the Universe collapse into evil? Who was the guy on the last page? Was that the Monitor dude or was that Darkseid reborn into a new body? What the fuck was going on?

Im wondering the EXACT same thing..

Ashwin Pande
12-10-2008, 02:55 PM
Im wondering the EXACT same thing..

I'm also wondering

Who the monkey dude who gave him the Rubik's cube was. Was that Grodd?

Roger
12-10-2008, 03:03 PM
yeah well.....final crisis is just as bad as RIP was.....
grant morrison could be the most overrated writer in comics.

justjeffery
12-10-2008, 03:09 PM
yeah well.....final crisis is just as bad as RIP was.....
grant morrison could be the most overrated writer in comics.

When he's on, he's amazing.. but when he's not... its muddled

allanpat
12-10-2008, 03:12 PM
I'm less inclined to be upset about this one since both are written by Grant, and we've been told for a while now that RIP and Final Crisis are interconnected.

It's shit like the Ras Al Ghul crossover where they try to force you to buy a bunch of books by people you don't like that pisses me off.

The Crushtacean
12-10-2008, 03:18 PM
Just because the two issues after RIP "lead into," which doesn't mean "cross-over with," Final Crisis, doesn't mean the story is still magically going on despite having an ending.

The fate of Batman's character is not at all the same issue as the ending of the story arc.

Did you not read Didio's response? He flat-out says the conclusion to Batman RIP is in Final Crisis.

"Dd: Correct. We have the two parts that we’re in the middle of now, and they lead us into final crisis #6 which gives us a definite conclusion to the batman story."

TheKraken
12-10-2008, 03:32 PM
I'm less inclined to be upset about this one since both are written by Grant, and we've been told for a while now that RIP and Final Crisis are interconnected.

It's shit like the Ras Al Ghul crossover where they try to force you to buy a bunch of books by people you don't like that pisses me off.

Not only did I not buy any comics I wasn't already buying (just Batman & Tec), I didn't even feel like I missed anything. I can only imagine what horrendous filler lurked in the other parts of that crossover...

Xander Boune
12-10-2008, 03:34 PM
Ok... just what the fuck happened in FC #5?

I loved the Darkseid speech but what the fuck happened? Did the Universe collapse into evil? Who was the guy on the last page? Was that the Monitor dude or was that Darkseid reborn into a new body? What the fuck was going on?

I think the guy on the last page was either Nix Uotan (the former Monitor) returned to power or Weeda Dell, the female Monitor that he was close with (I can't really make it out from the art). Either way it's the arrival of a powerful good guy ("Battle is joined. The judge of all evil is here.") What I don't understand is who Nix was talking to in the group of prisoners immune to the anti-life equation. Who was the one with the Rubik's cube? He solved the cube (which then made Mother Box noises) and then all the henchmen died. Two pages later Mokkari is crying that "The Batman psycho-merge killed the clone army!" What? Are the two things related?

Generic Poster
12-10-2008, 03:38 PM
I think the guy on the last page was either Nix Uotan (the former Monitor) returned to power or Weeda Dell, the female Monitor that he was close with (I can't really make it out from the art). Either way it's the arrival of a powerful good guy ("Battle is joined. The judge of all evil is here.") What I don't understand is who Nix was talking to in the group of prisoners immune to the anti-life equation. Who was the one with the Rubik's cube? He solved the cube (which then made Mother Box noises) and then all the henchmen died. Two pages later Mokkari is crying that "The Batman psycho-merge killed the clone army!" What? Are the two things related?

wat

Generic Poster
12-10-2008, 03:41 PM
Not only did I not buy any comics I wasn't already buying (just Batman & Tec), I didn't even feel like I missed anything. I can only imagine what horrendous filler lurked in the other parts of that crossover...

The best part was that immediately after resurrecting him, they immediately removed him from the table by making Ras a drugged up moron, making that crossover utterly worthless.

Joe Kalicki
12-10-2008, 03:42 PM
Did you not read Didio's response? He flat-out says the conclusion to Batman RIP is in Final Crisis.

"Dd: Correct. We have the two parts that we’re in the middle of now, and they lead us into final crisis #6 which gives us a definite conclusion to the batman story."

Yes, the conclusion to the story of Batman.

Not to the arc called Batman RIP, which is quite finished.

DeluxeVoltron
12-10-2008, 03:43 PM
I think the guy on the last page was either Nix Uotan (the former Monitor) returned to power or Weeda Dell, the female Monitor that he was close with (I can't really make it out from the art). Either way it's the arrival of a powerful good guy ("Battle is joined. The judge of all evil is here.") What I don't understand is who Nix was talking to in the group of prisoners immune to the anti-life equation. Who was the one with the Rubik's cube? He solved the cube (which then made Mother Box noises) and then all the henchmen died. Two pages later Mokkari is crying that "The Batman psycho-merge killed the clone army!" What? Are the two things related?

i have a suspicion that those in the cell who were immune to anti-life are incarnations of other new gods. i dont know anything about the new gods cast though so ive no idea if theres any way to connect a who to a whom.

leafinsectman
12-10-2008, 03:43 PM
Who was the one with the Rubik's cube?

This guy?
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/health_science/articles/2007/06/25/the_search_for_gods_number_in_a_rubiks_cube/

I thought the God's number stuff was interesting... well interesting enough to do a quick search of it. But then I found out it was just a bunch of stuff with computers.

Roger
12-10-2008, 03:46 PM
When he's on, he's amazing.. but when he's not... its muddled

but the time he's on is so fucking rare now a days...lol

Generic Poster
12-10-2008, 03:50 PM
but the time he's on is so fucking rare now a days...lol

As I've said numerous times, Morrison really reminds of Kirby (as a writer) - his creativity is breathtaking, but his execution is usually disappointing.

Adrian B AWESOME
12-10-2008, 03:58 PM
The guy on the last page was the Monitor that was cast down in #1 that we've been following IN EVERY ISSUE.

Do people seriously not read? Do they just look through and hope the pretty pictures will tell them all they need to know? I don't understand this.

Sy-Klone
12-10-2008, 03:58 PM
I think the guy on the last page was either Nix Uotan (the former Monitor) returned to power or Weeda Dell, the female Monitor that he was close with (I can't really make it out from the art). Either way it's the arrival of a powerful good guy ("Battle is joined. The judge of all evil is here.") What I don't understand is who Nix was talking to in the group of prisoners immune to the anti-life equation. Who was the one with the Rubik's cube? He solved the cube (which then made Mother Box noises) and then all the henchmen died. Two pages later Mokkari is crying that "The Batman psycho-merge killed the clone army!" What? Are the two things related?

I'm pretty sure that the guy on the last page is Nix Uotan (the former Monitor). I think the guy in the wheelchair was Metron, and when Metron solved the Rubik's Cube in less than 18 moves, it triggered the rebirth of a New God from the Fifth World.

As for the Batman stuff...this ties in with what Simyan and Mokkari are doing in Batman #682 and #683 (probing Batman's memories to build a better army for Darkseid). We'll find out more about this in Batman #683, I suspect.

The monkey guy? Bet it's Detective Chimp.

As for what is happening: Darkseid has fallen. As he falls, he's creating a gravity well that is collapsing Earth. As he falls, he's dragging humanity down with him. Concurrently, the Fifth World is being birthed.

Adrian B AWESOME
12-10-2008, 04:01 PM
I'm pretty sure that the guy on the last page is Nix Uotan (the former Monitor). I think the guy in the wheelchair was Metron, and when Metron solved the Rubik's Cube in less than 18 moves, it triggered the rebirth of a New God from the Fifth World.

As for the Batman stuff...this ties in with what Simyan and Mokkari are doing in Batman #682 and #683 (probing Batman's memories to build a better army for Darkseid). We'll find out more about this in Batman #683, I suspect.

The monkey guy? Bet it's Detective Chimp.

As for what is happening: Darkseid has fallen. As he falls, he's creating a gravity well that is collapsing Earth. As he falls, he's dragging humanity down with him. Concurrently, the Fifth World is being birthed.

Wow, except for the Detective Chimp angle, I somehow got all of that from this issue too!

Must be because I CAN READ ENGLISH.

Ashwin Pande
12-10-2008, 04:08 PM
Wow, except for the Detective Chimp angle, I somehow got all of that from this issue too!

Must be because I CAN READ ENGLISH.

How the fuck you haven't been banned for being a condescending douche is beyond me.

This is a fucking discussion. If more than one person isn't clear on exactly what went down then it obviously wasn't explained clearly and we're discussing what happened.

Stop being a fucking child and grow up. This is how adults discuss things. We ask questions of each other and get answers and then think about them. We don't throw tantrums and call each other illiterates.

Xander Boune
12-10-2008, 04:10 PM
I'm pretty sure that the guy on the last page is Nix Uotan (the former Monitor). I think the guy in the wheelchair was Metron, and when Metron solved the Rubik's Cube in less than 18 moves, it triggered the rebirth of a New God from the Fifth World.

As for the Batman stuff...this ties in with what Simyan and Mokkari are doing in Batman #682 and #683 (probing Batman's memories to build a better army for Darkseid). We'll find out more about this in Batman #683, I suspect.

The monkey guy? Bet it's Detective Chimp.

As for what is happening: Darkseid has fallen. As he falls, he's creating a gravity well that is collapsing Earth. As he falls, he's dragging humanity down with him. Concurrently, the Fifth World is being birthed.

Thanks, I vaguely understood most of what was happening, but the Batman stuff threw me because we haven't seen it yet. Some more quick questions about all the New God stuff since you seem to be on top of things

If all the new gods are hiding on earth among humans, why was Orion in his regular form in issue 1 instead of the big black dude he was in Seven Soldiers? Also, in the first issue of FC, who is the caveman dude with fire who puts on New God mud makeup against the backdrop of the fallen Statue of Liberty? What is the significance of that and Metron's first appearance in the series?.

Adrian B AWESOME
12-10-2008, 04:12 PM
How the fuck you haven't been banned for being a condescending douche is beyond me.

This is a fucking discussion. If more than one person isn't clear on exactly what went down then it obviously wasn't explained clearly and we're discussing what happened.

Stop being a fucking child and grow up. This is how adults discuss things. We ask questions of each other and get answers and then think about them. We don't throw tantrums and call each other illiterates.

Hey guys, look. Ashwin's making himself out to be better than everyone else again.

Since, you know, grownups like him say "fuck" a lot apparently and instead of trying to understand the material, act like it's so ridiculous it's beyond them, like asking "What the fuck was going on?" on part 5 of a seven part serialized story.

It's beyond me, it really is. Maybe someday, I'll be able to grow up big and strong like Ashwin and force my opinion down everyone's throats on EVERY SINGLE ISSUE EVER but until then, I guess I'll just be a child in his eyes, and in the eyes of everyone who dreams.

Criden
12-10-2008, 04:14 PM
The guy on the last page was the Monitor that was cast down in #1 that we've been following IN EVERY ISSUE.

Do people seriously not read? Do they just look through and hope the pretty pictures will tell them all they need to know? I don't understand this.

It's not so much to ask to put this in spoiler tags, is it?

Ashwin Pande
12-10-2008, 04:19 PM
Hey guys, look. Ashwin's making himself out to be better than everyone else again.

Since, you know, grownups like him say "fuck" a lot apparently and instead of trying to understand the material, act like it's so ridiculous it's beyond them, like asking "What the fuck was going on?" on part 5 of a seven part serialized story.

It's beyond me, it really is. Maybe someday, I'll be able to grow up big and strong like Ashwin and force my opinion down everyone's throats on EVERY SINGLE ISSUE EVER but until then, I guess I'll just be a child in his eyes, and in the eyes of everyone who dreams.

I wanted to know what was happening. I liked the issue. It's the best one yet. But I wasn't clear on what happened at the end because it all happened so fast and I'm not well read on the New Gods stuff. Sy-Klone and Xander gave me good answers and we're having a decent discussion until you come in and tell us we're stupid for not getting it and apparently can't read.

I was trying to discuss and find out what happened in the issue about some points I was unclear on, I don't need to be called stupid for not getting it.

Adrian B AWESOME
12-10-2008, 04:20 PM
Thanks, I vaguely understood most of what was happening, but the Batman stuff threw me because we haven't seen it yet. Some more quick questions about all the New God stuff since you seem to be on top of things

If all the new gods are hiding on earth among humans, why was Orion in his regular form in issue 1 instead of the big black dude he was in Seven Soldiers? Also, in the first issue of FC, who is the caveman dude with fire who puts on New God mud makeup against the backdrop of the fallen Statue of Liberty? What is the significance of that and Metron's first appearance in the series?.

The guy in the very beginning was Anthro. The significance has yet to be truly revealed, but it seemed, to me, that it just showed the relationship between Earth and the New Gods.

As well, while looking on the Wikipedia Final Crisis page, I found not one but TWO references to the whole Batman thing:

April 20th 2008 - "Does "Batman R.I.P." tie-in to Final Crisis? Morrison said that after "R.I.P." there will be a two-part story that “fits in” to Final Crisis, and is “kind of the last Batman story in a way.”" - http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=154379 (written up by our own Albert Ching)

August 26, 2008 - ""First it's R.I.P., and we'll see how that winds up for Batman. Then the two-parter mentioned (Batman #682-683) goes through Batman's whole career, in a big summing up of everything that also ties directly into Final Crisis. And Final Crisis is where we see the final fate of Batman."" - http://au.comics.ign.com/articles/902/902992p1.html

So you may see now why I'm so confused about people saying there was no indication of this. In nearly every interview he's done, Grant has said that Batman's ultimate fate was directly tied to Final Crisis.

Adrian B AWESOME
12-10-2008, 04:20 PM
It's not so much to ask to put this in spoiler tags, is it?

You're right. I'm sorry.

Adrian B AWESOME
12-10-2008, 04:22 PM
Honestly, the best help I got to understanding all of this was picking up Final Crisis #1 - Director's Cut. JG and Grant break it down pretty well and while not spelling everything out (as to not ruin the story) they did clear some of my initial questions up which allowed everything else to come easier.

Criden
12-10-2008, 04:24 PM
You're right. I'm sorry.

Thanks.

Sy-Klone
12-10-2008, 04:24 PM
Thanks, I vaguely understood most of what was happening, but the Batman stuff threw me because we haven't seen it yet. Some more quick questions about all the New God stuff since you seem to be on top of things

If all the new gods are hiding on earth among humans, why was Orion in his regular form in issue 1 instead of the big black dude he was in Seven Soldiers? Also, in the first issue of FC, who is the caveman dude with fire who puts on New God mud makeup against the backdrop of the fallen Statue of Liberty? What is the significance of that and Metron's first appearance in the series?.

You raise a good question about Orion. At this point, I'm not sure about how Seven Soldiers fits with this.

As to the stuff from the first issue, Metron is there at the birth of humanity. Metron is also there at the death of the Fourth World and the birth of the Fifth World (whatever that is). As to the caveman in the first issue, I'm not quite sure who he is, but the blonde kid running toward him is Kamandi, the last boy on Earth. I'll be interested to see if Morrison picks back up on that in the remainder of the series.

John Drake
12-10-2008, 04:25 PM
The guy in the very beginning was Anthro. The significance has yet to be truly revealed, but it seemed, to me, that it just showed the relationship between Earth and the New Gods.

As well, while looking on the Wikipedia Final Crisis page, I found not one but TWO references to the whole Batman thing:

April 20th 2008 - "Does "Batman R.I.P." tie-in to Final Crisis? Morrison said that after "R.I.P." there will be a two-part story that “fits in” to Final Crisis, and is “kind of the last Batman story in a way.”" - http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=154379 (written up by our own Albert Ching)

August 26, 2008 - ""First it's R.I.P., and we'll see how that winds up for Batman. Then the two-parter mentioned (Batman #682-683) goes through Batman's whole career, in a big summing up of everything that also ties directly into Final Crisis. And Final Crisis is where we see the final fate of Batman."" - http://au.comics.ign.com/articles/902/902992p1.html

So you may see now why I'm so confused about people saying there was no indication of this. In nearly every interview he's done, Grant has said that Batman's ultimate fate was directly tied to Final Crisis.
Some people don't read interviews, I'm guessing.

Generic Poster
12-10-2008, 04:25 PM
If all the new gods are hiding on earth among humans, why was Orion in his regular form in issue 1 instead of the big black dude he was in Seven Soldiers? Also, in the first issue of FC, who is the caveman dude with fire who puts on New God mud makeup against the backdrop of the fallen Statue of Liberty? What is the significance of that and Metron's first appearance in the series?.

I may be mis-remembering, but I thought that Orion was a homeless Vietnam-vet looking white guy in Seven Soldiers.

Ashwin Pande
12-10-2008, 04:27 PM
You raise a good question about Orion. At this point, I'm not sure about how Seven Soldiers fits with this.

As to the stuff from the first issue, Metron is there at the birth of humanity. Metron is also there at the death of the Fourth World and the birth of the Fifth World (whatever that is). As to the caveman in the first issue, I'm not quite sure who he is, but the blonde kid running toward him is Kamandi, the last boy on Earth. I'll be interested to see if Morrison picks back up on that in the remainder of the series.

DiDio said that Kamandi would be on the last page of the book. I think the quote was "It starts with the first boy on Earth and ends with the last boy on Earth."

Interesting point with the Detective Chimp btw. I was thinking it'd be Grodd because his intellect might keep the anti-life thing out.

Adrian B AWESOME
12-10-2008, 04:28 PM
You raise a good question about Orion. At this point, I'm not sure about how Seven Soldiers fits with this.

As to the stuff from the first issue, Metron is there at the birth of humanity. Metron is also there at the death of the Fourth World and the birth of the Fifth World (whatever that is). As to the caveman in the first issue, I'm not quite sure who he is, but the blonde kid running toward him is Kamandi, the last boy on Earth. I'll be interested to see if Morrison picks back up on that in the remainder of the series.

In the "Director's Commentary" of #1, Morrison discusses that something's not right with Kamandi (the last human hero) and Anthro (the first one) meeting. He says it will all be cleared up by #6. Also, go back to issue #1 and check out Anthro's face near the end. He's wearing the Mister Miracle design that was brought up in this issue.

Adrian B AWESOME
12-10-2008, 04:29 PM
Some people don't read interviews, I'm guessing.

But yet, he read the one on the front page?

You're losing me here...

Generic Poster
12-10-2008, 04:30 PM
But yet, he read the one on the front page?

You're losing me here...

You're right. The fact I read one leads irrefutably to the conclusion that I read them all.

Sy-Klone
12-10-2008, 04:31 PM
In the "Director's Commentary" of #1, Morrison discusses that something's not right with Kamandi (the last human hero) and Anthro (the first one) meeting. He says it will all be cleared up by #6. Also, go back to issue #1 and check out Anthro's face near the end. He's wearing the Mister Miracle design that was brought up in this issue.

Cool. Good eyes on you and Xander, there. :) I hadn't drawn that connection with the face paint in the first issue. :thumb:

I don't think Morrison of late is confusing. I think he just tends to write things in a way that is interesting to him, and that means that each individual issue is part of a larger whole that is greater than the sum of its parts.

Xander Boune
12-10-2008, 04:33 PM
Thanks Adrian and Sky-Klone, I never heard of Anthro or Kamandi and didn't realize those two characters were already established. Reading up on them on wiki really makes that scene a lot more interesting.

Adrian B AWESOME
12-10-2008, 04:35 PM
Cool. Good eyes on you and Xander, there. :) I hadn't drawn that connection with the face paint in the first issue. :thumb:

I don't think Morrison of late is confusing. I think he just tends to write things in a way that is interesting to him, and that means that each individual issue is part of a larger whole that is greater than the sum of its parts.

Well, in the issue Kamandi is yelling "Metron gave you a weapon against the Gods! We need it now!" and Anthro turns around and has the facepaint. I think we can surmise that this has power. As to why, guess we'll have to wait till the end of January to find out. :(

Adrian B AWESOME
12-10-2008, 04:35 PM
You're right. The fact I read one leads irrefutably to the conclusion that I read them all.

I mean, as many interviews as Morrison and Didio did about Final Crisis before it came out...yes. Yes I would.

John Drake
12-10-2008, 04:38 PM
But yet, he read the one on the front page?

You're losing me here...

:lol: damn! But I imagine it must be shitty for people who really don't read them.

Sy-Klone
12-10-2008, 04:53 PM
By the way, while I'm reasonably confident in the Metron speculation, I'm not so convinced about the Detective Chimp suggestion I made earlier. We know it's an ape-like character, but it's entirely possible that that is some other character. I didn't know about Anthro, and I know there are other big gaps in my DC knowledge. It's a thought, but don't quote me on it. Hopefully, we'll find out next month. :)

Jew Mafia
12-10-2008, 05:00 PM
The guy in the very beginning was Anthro. The significance has yet to be truly revealed, but it seemed, to me, that it just showed the relationship between Earth and the New Gods.

As well, while looking on the Wikipedia Final Crisis page, I found not one but TWO references to the whole Batman thing:

April 20th 2008 - "Does "Batman R.I.P." tie-in to Final Crisis? Morrison said that after "R.I.P." there will be a two-part story that “fits in” to Final Crisis, and is “kind of the last Batman story in a way.”" - http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=154379 (written up by our own Albert Ching)

August 26, 2008 - ""First it's R.I.P., and we'll see how that winds up for Batman. Then the two-parter mentioned (Batman #682-683) goes through Batman's whole career, in a big summing up of everything that also ties directly into Final Crisis. And Final Crisis is where we see the final fate of Batman."" - http://au.comics.ign.com/articles/902/902992p1.html

So you may see now why I'm so confused about people saying there was no indication of this. In nearly every interview he's done, Grant has said that Batman's ultimate fate was directly tied to Final Crisis.

I don't see how you find it confusing. Some people, including me, felt that the "ending" of RIP was flat and didn't bring about the earth shattering conclusion that was, for lack of a better term hyped about. Now I know why, because the real ending hasn't happened yet. What we got in 681 was the ending for the tpb crowd.


I don't know if people didn't read the entire interview but how can Dan put it any more clearly than this....


Here’s the conundrum on this one. And this is reflective of the world that we live in now – the world of collected editions. The R.I.P. story was always meant to play through to the end of Final Crisis - always. The thing is, we had to come up with a very complete story in “Batman R.I.P.” as it existed in its title. The reality is that the “Batman R.I.P.” story does not conclude until Final Crisis #6. There are also issues #682 and #683 of Batman that feed directly into Final Crisis #6, and we’ll have a big finale to the Batman storyline. That’s how it plays out.

Did the interviews indicate that post-RIP Batman would have major things going down in FC? You bet. Did anything before today indicate that an additional ending to RIP would be part of FC? Not to me it didn't. An I can't stress enough that I enjoyed RIP, except for the flat ending. An now I know why, because it wasn't an ending to that storyline, it was just a piece. To be concluded in Batman 682,683, and FC 6. Presumably.

Generic Poster
12-10-2008, 05:02 PM
I don't see how you find it confusing. Some people, including me, felt that the "ending" of RIP was flat and didn't bring about the earth shattering conclusion that was, for lack of a better term hyped about. Now I know why, because the real ending has happened yet. What we got in 681 was the ending for the tpb crowd.


I don't know if people didn't read the entire interview but how can Dan put it any more clearly than this....



Did the interviews indicate that post-RIP Batman would have major things going down in FC? You bet. Did anything before today indicate that an additional ending to RIP would be part of FC? Not to me it didn't. An I can't stress enough that I enjoyed RIP, except for the flat ending. An now I know why, because it wasn't an ending to that storyline, it was just a piece. To be concluded in Batman 682,683, and FC 6. Presumably.

Man, you must really hate DC.

Generic Poster
12-10-2008, 05:03 PM
I mean, as many interviews as Morrison and Didio did about Final Crisis before it came out...yes. Yes I would.

So, you're saying I should have read interviews to know that Batman RIP concluded in Final Crisis, but also that it does not conclude in Final Crisis so I shouldn't complain, right?

Slewo.O
12-10-2008, 05:04 PM
Much better than anything my boorish mind can come up with.

I can understand some people being pissed cause not all comic fans go online and read newsagama.

But to be fair the issue of Batman that cane out last week had a friggin final crisis tie in tag on it. Either that or my copy of it was a misprint. As for those of us in the know Moreison has been saying the final fate of Bruce Wayne is in FC for months it's not a secret or a last minute thing. RIP did conclude but we have yet to see where Bats is going.

Slewo.O
12-10-2008, 05:06 PM
So, you're saying I should have read interviews to know that Batman RIP concluded in Final Crisis, but also that it does not conclude in Final Crisis so I shouldn't complain, right?

No you could just read the story from the last issue and look at the cover if you don't have a computer to figure out what to read.

The Crushtacean
12-10-2008, 05:06 PM
Yes, the conclusion to the story of Batman.

Not to the arc called Batman RIP, which is quite finished.

Umm, no. See Jew Mafia's post above, and the longer quote he took from the interview, which flat out states that Batman RIP (not any other Batman story, or anything else you want to make up) ends in Final Crisis and was always meant to.

Generic Poster
12-10-2008, 05:08 PM
No you could just read the story from the last issue and look at the cover if you don't have a computer to figure out what to read.

Yes . . . by the last issue. My point was, had I know I would have to buy additional comics, I never would have bought RIP in the first place (at least, not in monthlies).

Jew Mafia
12-10-2008, 05:11 PM
I can understand some people being pissed cause not all comic fans go online and read newsagama.

But to be fair the issue of Batman that cane out last week had a friggin final crisis tie in tag on it. Either that or my copy of it was a misprint. As for those of us in the know Moreison has been saying the final fate of Bruce Wayne is in FC for months it's not a secret or a last minute thing. RIP did conclude but we have yet to see where Bats is going.

I wonder if Final Crisis 6 will get tagged with an RIP logo on the cover.

Generic Poster
12-10-2008, 05:14 PM
I wonder if Final Crisis 6 will get tagged with an RIP logo on the cover.

I like the absurd tags we got with some of the post-FC/52 books:

52:Epilogue:From the Pages of Gotham Central: Rene Montoya: The Question: The Crime Bible: Five Lessons of Blood

Slewo.O
12-10-2008, 05:16 PM
Yes . . . by the last issue. My point was, had I know I would have to buy additional comics, I never would have bought RIP in the first place (at least, not in monthlies).

Okay I can understand and get behind that.

EdNEMO
12-10-2008, 05:31 PM
This is the reason I only buy trades and hardcovers. Though since I will have to get Final Crisis to figure out Batman I will just wait until June and pick them both up at the same time.

Generic Poster
12-10-2008, 05:33 PM
This is the reason I only buy trades and hardcovers. Though since I will have to get Final Crisis to figure out Batman I will just wait until June and pick them both up at the same time.

Or, maybe you (or others like you) will lose interest in the meantime and pickup neither one. This is why this sort of strategy is a bad idea, IMO.

EdNEMO
12-10-2008, 05:35 PM
Or, maybe you (or others like you) will lose interest in the meantime and pickup neither one. This is why this sort of strategy is a bad idea, IMO.

I follow writers instead of characters or books. I'll pick this up because it's Grant Morrison. Though, I still feel like he owes me for Seven Sons of Victory. It was like a bunch of interesting stories thrown together into a book by a retarded monkey.

xhondax
12-10-2008, 05:41 PM
so is the trade going to have both rip and last rites in it without the ending of final crisis 6 and be incomplete as far as the story or will it have fc 6 and tell all of the story?

Slewo.O
12-10-2008, 05:44 PM
so is the trade going to have both rip and last rites in it without the ending of final crisis 6 and be incomplete as far as the story or will it have fc 6 and tell all of the story?
....Given that the story hasn't even concluded yet I'm guessing that's a no.

Roger
12-10-2008, 06:16 PM
It's not so much to ask to put this in spoiler tags, is it?

since no one can figure out what this stupid mini is about....i think we all welcome all the spoilers we can get....lol

Petyr Baelish
12-10-2008, 06:29 PM
How the fuck you haven't been banned for being a condescending douche is beyond me.

This is a fucking discussion. If more than one person isn't clear on exactly what went down then it obviously wasn't explained clearly and we're discussing what happened.

Stop being a fucking child and grow up. This is how adults discuss things. We ask questions of each other and get answers and then think about them. We don't throw tantrums and call each other illiterates.

Not a justification, but I believe his hysterics stem from a fear of comic books being written in a very generic format. Morrison, who I've gathered is a personal favorite of his, writes at a mercurial pace and if you can't keep up, too bad, so sad. With some writers (Usually the groundbreaking and unpredictable ones) some editors recognize this and purposely impose a tedious and disciplined mainstream conclusion. I'm pretty sure it was reported here that the initial ending to Final Crisis was changed. I think Adrian prefers to shell out three or four dollars on something he won't surmise from the Next Month preview caption of the preceding issue. Which is understandable.

Or maybe he's an unmitigated douche bag prone to stereotypical fanboy tantrums. But I think it's more the former.

Adam Geen
12-10-2008, 07:36 PM
That's retarded. Hmm and I wonder why I never read DC. They don't seem to have it together very well.

Adrian B AWESOME
12-10-2008, 09:20 PM
Not a justification, but I believe his hysterics stem from a fear of comic books being written in a very generic format. Morrison, who I've gathered is a personal favorite of his, writes at a mercurial pace and if you can't keep up, too bad, so sad. With some writers (Usually the groundbreaking and unpredictable ones) some editors recognize this and purposely impose a tedious and disciplined mainstream conclusion. I'm pretty sure it was reported here that the initial ending to Final Crisis was changed. I think Adrian prefers to shell out three or four dollars on something he won't surmise from the Next Month preview caption of the preceding issue. Which is understandable.

Or maybe he's an unmitigated douche bag prone to stereotypical fanboy tantrums. But I think it's more the former.

It's a little from column A and a TON from column B, although I am absolutely not a fanboy.

But I'm an absolute d-bag.

PimpSlapStick!
12-10-2008, 09:34 PM
I miss the good stuff dammit

ZombieSpeedball
12-10-2008, 09:35 PM
It's a little from column A and a TON from column B, although I am absolutely not a fanboy.

But I'm an absolute d-bag.

I can vouch for Adrian on this, although he does exceed in B AWESOME.

ChuckMcButcalf
12-10-2008, 10:11 PM
Wait... wasn't Batman hanging with the Justice League in issue #1 of Final Crisis? Wasn't he RIP'd at that point?

And FYI, Adrian is right. The farther FC goes the better it gets. But the Batman appearance at the beginning really fucking baffles me.

Criden
12-10-2008, 10:29 PM
Wait... wasn't Batman hanging with the Justice League in issue #1 of Final Crisis? Wasn't he RIP'd at that point?

And FYI, Adrian is right. The farther FC goes the better it gets. But the Batman appearance at the beginning really fucking baffles me.

I'm thinking Batman RIP takes place before FC #1. There are some theories around that

the in-machine sequence in #682 indicates all of RIP was a dream,

but I suspect that's not the case.

ChuckMcButcalf
12-10-2008, 10:36 PM
I'm thinking Batman RIP takes place before FC #1. There are some theories around that

the in-machine sequence in #682 indicates all of RIP was a dream,

but I suspect that's not the case.

We'll see I guess. Really a minor complaint though because I've liked both events quite a bit after the initial "what the fuck"ery wore off.

Jerome Gibbons
12-10-2008, 10:47 PM
Yeah, that's kinda crappy. I mean, I don't really mind that a story that starts in Batman ends in another series. I don't think it's ideal, but I can deal, plus I was reading FC anyway and it's a pretty enjoyable miniseries, but I would have preferred if it'd been properly established in Batman RIP itself that the story would continue in FC, like with a "To be continued next issue and in Final Crisis #6" type thing at the end of #681, as someone said. Plus, it's just good sense, to me. That way they could have perhaps get some Batman readers who wouldn't normally pick up FC to take a look, potentially increasing sales (even if it's just marginally).

Shwicaz
12-10-2008, 11:24 PM
Dan really gives a 'Palin-esque' answer to his questions, doesn't he?


10. Let’s talk about Batman. Something that came up in a lot of the commentary and criticism of “Batman R.I.P.” is that the storyline was built and built and built – Grant himself made pronouncements about it at the New York Comic Con as being one of the most definition stories for Batman. And then at the end of R.I.P., we get a “death” scene that we have seen before – no body, and a question mark as to what even happened. To me, this seems like it was a case where the hype, or people’s expectations overtook the story’s ability to deliver...

DD: Here’s the conundrum on this one. And this is reflective of the world that we live in now – the world of collected editions. The R.I.P. story was always meant to play through to the end of Final Crisis - always. The thing is, we had to come up with a very complete story in “Batman R.I.P.” as it existed in its title. The reality is that the “Batman R.I.P.” story does not conclude until Final Crisis #6. There are also issues #682 and #683 of Batman that feed directly into Final Crisis #6, and we’ll have a big finale to the Batman storyline. That’s how it plays out.

But as I said, because we live in the world of collected editions, we needed a conclusion in the Batman series, so that we could collect it properly within Batman, without having to bring in segments of Final Crisis to complete the story.

NRAMA: So – fundamentally, “Batman R.I.P” did not end in Batman #681?

DD: Correct. We have the two parts that we’re in the middle of now, and they lead us into Final Crisis #6 which gives us a definite conclusion to the Batman story. That’s how Grant designed the story from the start, and that’s how the story plays out. So, the people who are looking for the big finale, the stuff that Grant was talking about – he knows how big an ending he has, because he wrote it in Final Crisis #6. That story has been so planned out that it reflects events from the pages of Final Crisis #1 in order to pull it all together.

So the Batman story has been hinted at in Final Crisis #1 - we couldn’t allude to it, because we didn’t want to play our hand too early with that. The fascinating thing about what Grant has done is that he’s telling a major story in the life of Batman while he’s telling a major event across the DC Universe with Final Crisis. And the two are linked.

NRAMA: So Final Crisis #6 is like when you’re driving on, say, I-40 and it merges with another for a while, and you get the road signs telling you that you’re on two highways at the same time...and you follow another highway out other than the one you went in on.

DD: Exactly. And Batman #682 and #683 are reflective of things that took place earlier in Final Crisis as well.

11: That said, it took you a few minutes there to explain where the story “really” went and ended, and yet, there’s the clear perception, at least until this word gets out, that R.I.P ended with Batman #681. What can you do, or can you do anything when you see fans reading along, and coming to a point where collectively, they say, “What the hell?” In the meantime, you know where the story goes from where they think it ended, and you know that the story has a more satisfying conclusion than the one they are looking for, but it’s somewhere else. Do just bite the bullet and wait for the tide to turn in regards to fan sentiment?

DD: Honestly, I enjoyed the ending of R.I.P. in Batman, so I felt satisfied at the conclusion. I look at everyone following along, and have the same reaction that anyone in my position has when the readers get a controversial issue – that they don’t say, “Oh, yeah - #681. Didn’t like it, so I’m going to drop Batman and never read another issue.” I’m hoping that’s not the case because, as those who stuck around realized, issue #682 really gets you back into what the story is really about, and that comes across even stronger in #683. Again, we’re trying to create long-term fiction with Batman. In doing so, we want to make sure these things are as compelling as they can be from stage to stage, point to point, and that people ride along all the way with us.

One other thing – one of the things we did, going in to Final Crisis is that we wanted to feel that if people just wanted to read ,b>Final Crisis, they were fine just reading that one storyline, and wouldn’t feel that they were being “forced” to purchase other storylines and material. That should be the same case with “Batman R.I.P.” We wanted to give what felt like two distinct conclusions, even though they are very much intertwined. Again, we’re trying to work the story to fulfill the needs and expectations of everyone. The reason it took so long to explain, as you pointed out, is because I’d give away the ending to the entire storyline. Trust me – the full story, once people will see it and know it, and aren’t worried about spoilers, it a lot easier to follow than my explanation [laughs].


That last answer was way too long and meandering. It seemed as if he was saying "Well, I liked the ending! I hope people who didn't don't swear off the book because the impact will really be felt in the next two issues.

BUT, if you don't like that ending, be sure to pick up FC #6 (you don't HAVE to.)..but if you want the ending you were expecting...the big ending that Grant has been promising...(and not the whimper he gave you in the batman solo title), then pick up FC #6!!!!"



....doesn't it....?

Lord Jermaine Retail
12-11-2008, 06:04 AM
This is just awful. Its one thing to have a set storyline in from point A to point B, one that was heavily promoted as only itself, tie into something else. Its pushing it, but still. The thing is that you can't come out and tell people that it ties into something way over in left field AFTER two weeks after the story concludes. You can't have your epilogue issue that comes out the next week, one that returning Batman fans will surely pick up, show the departed hero not departed at all and in the clutches of something called Final Crisis. I am DC's representative to the world, the buying public, and I have to find this out at the same time as everyone else? I am here to tell you that if I had known that Batman RIP tied into Final Crisis to that degree, then I would have been promoting that to all of the increasingly frustrated Batman fans who supported RIP. There were many readers who just picked up the RIP storyline, not Morrison's whole run, and not Final Crisis. Just because its the same writer does not correlate into the material being tied in.

I'm almost willing to bet money that my DC rep knew nothing about this to even tell me. I'd wager those guys (and DC creators) found out in the Newsarama piece for the first time too. Where is the partnership with the retailers? And again DiDio comes much too close to blaming the fans if they "don't get it." Making RIP fit into a collection is not the problem of fans supporting it in issue form.

I feel like there was a way to present all this and have it absolutely work out. It would have been bumpy (I know for a fact that some people love RIP/ Final Crisis exactly as it has unfolded which is great), but there was a way to do this without upsetting fans and me, the retailer. We could have worked together to assure that Batman people knew that they were in good hands and to ensure they looked at Final Crisis which is an event that some Batman fans may not have made their way too. All it would have taken is a simple "Be sure to alert everyone excited about RIP about Morrison's epic Final Crisis storyline! Reorders are available!"

Lord Jermaine Retail
12-11-2008, 06:10 AM
Yeah, that sucks. I planned on buying the trades of both stories anyway, but I can defiintely see the frustration this would cause someone who only follows Batman.

Yes. I see that from the front lines. I think that DiDio made a pretty big assumption that fans who bought the end of the story with #681 will automatically be there for #682. Not all of them will and not all of them will decide to begin Final Crisis in order to properly conclude RIP. I'll do my best to steer people in that direction, but my credibility will be on the line if anything sideways happens.

Akira
12-11-2008, 06:11 AM
That's the dilemma of in-continuity comics and the events they're driven by. They're constantly trying to up-sell you more of their titles, but not because they're so well-written, but because they're just tied together.

Were just as many bitter about Civil War's ending, with the surprise in Capt. America #25 a week later?

These events used to be regulated within a title or family of titles, with minor repercussions being shown in other universe books.

These days, it's main event mini, with everything that can realistically get tied in, being tied in. Marvel seems to be more creator-focused on the opt-in or encouraged-in process, while DC seems less organized in that regard. They've gotten better with it, though, since Countdown. I'm not crazy about all the one-shot specials or silly number of minis floating around with Final Crisis, though. It's hard to keep track.

Difference is, the events of Cap #25 were a pay off to everything that Bru & Co had been doing in the last 24 issues of Cap. Not a pay off to the last 7 issues of Civil War. Bru was always gonna kill Cap off. Civil War or no Civil War. To put it another way, I feel like I could lend someone the Civil War trade or the Cap Omnibus and feel totally justified that they could get a full story with a definite ending if they only read one of those. Apparently, I won't be able to say the same if I give someone the RIP trade to read.

Evan the Shaggy
12-11-2008, 06:11 AM
So how the hell is the Batman RIP trade going to be set up exactly? An issue of Final Crisis will be in it?

Generic Poster
12-11-2008, 06:13 AM
Difference is, the events of Cap #25 were a pay off to everything that Bru & Co had been doing in the last 24 issues of Cap. Not a pay off to the last 7 issues of Civil War. Bru was always gonna kill Cap off. Civil War or no Civil War. To put it another way, I feel like I could lend someone the Civil War trade or the Cap Omnibus and feel totally justified that they could get a full story with a definite ending if they only read one of those. Apparently, I won't be able to say the same if I give someone the RIP trade to read.

:heart:

Akira
12-11-2008, 06:15 AM
It's beyond me, it really is. Maybe someday, I'll be able to grow up big and strong like Ashwin and force my opinion down everyone's throats on EVERY SINGLE ISSUE EVER

You mean like you do with Morrison? Seriously, chill out dude, you're becoming a parody of yourself here.

Akira
12-11-2008, 06:17 AM
Yes. I see that from the front lines. I think that DiDio made a pretty big assumption that fans who bought the end of the story with #681 will automatically be there for #682.

Seriously. I was planning on at least trying out the RIP trade, but not now. I feel bad for everyone who bought all the issues of RIP, whereas I have only been buying FC and will apparently get, as a bonus, the ending to a story I wasn't even buying.

Lord Jermaine Retail
12-11-2008, 06:18 AM
Seems to me this is a ridiculous complaint.

The story called Batman RIP is over. It does not continue anywhere else.

Its aftermath is taking place in the Batman title.

Batman, the character (or at leats Bruce Wayne), his story is continuing on in Final Crisis.

They're all very distinct things. No one was lied to or getting ripped off.

DC did a press release that the media picked up on proclaiming that Batman had died at the hands of..well someone impossible. I'm sure you read the articles. So somewhere in the world, Batman fans who hadn't read in years went out and bought the RIP storyline. From start to conclusion. Is no one concerned about those people at all? "Too bad, shoulda read Final Crisis." That's pretty callous. They had a marketing opportunity to lead those people from the last part into Final Crisis, a series that not every DC fan is arbitrarily reading. A specific DC Nation page for it, anything. When Secret Invasion ended, Marvel had a free booklet showing people options on where they might want to go next, if anywhere. RIP and SI are not the same, but my point is that Marvel simply has a better grasp of marketing their product than DC. House ads and misleading press releases is not marketing.

Ryudo
12-11-2008, 06:19 AM
We'll see I guess. Really a minor complaint though because I've liked both events quite a bit after the initial "what the fuck"ery wore off.

It wears off?

Generic Poster
12-11-2008, 06:20 AM
Seriously. I was planning on at least trying out the RIP trade, but not now. I feel bad for everyone who bought all the issues of RIP, whereas I have only been buying FC and will apparently get, as a bonus, the ending to a story I wasn't even buying.

Apparently we should have been reading all the interviews with Morrison and divining from them that all his big plans for Batman were actually going to come to fruition 3/4 of the way through yet another Crisis Event that many of us had become so burned out on that we had no interest whatsoever in reading.

Brother Power the Gong
12-11-2008, 06:23 AM
Difference is, the events of Cap #25 were a pay off to everything that Bru & Co had been doing in the last 24 issues of Cap. Not a pay off to the last 7 issues of Civil War. Bru was always gonna kill Cap off. Civil War or no Civil War. To put it another way, I feel like I could lend someone the Civil War trade or the Cap Omnibus and feel totally justified that they could get a full story with a definite ending if they only read one of those. Apparently, I won't be able to say the same if I give someone the RIP trade to read.
Exactly.


This is just awful. Its one thing to have a set storyline in from point A to point B, one that was heavily promoted as only itself, tie into something else. Its pushing it, but still. The thing is that you can't come out and tell people that it ties into something way over in left field AFTER two weeks after the story concludes. You can't have your epilogue issue that comes out the next week, one that returning Batman fans will surely pick up, show the departed hero not departed at all and in the clutches of something called Final Crisis. I am DC's representative to the world, the buying public, and I have to find this out at the same time as everyone else? I am here to tell you that if I had known that Batman RIP tied into Final Crisis to that degree, then I would have been promoting that to all of the increasingly frustrated Batman fans who supported RIP. There were many readers who just picked up the RIP storyline, not Morrison's whole run, and not Final Crisis. Just because its the same writer does not correlate into the material being tied in.

I'm almost willing to bet money that my DC rep knew nothing about this to even tell me. I'd wager those guys (and DC creators) found out in the Newsarama piece for the first time too. Where is the partnership with the retailers? And again DiDio comes much too close to blaming the fans if they "don't get it." Making RIP fit into a collection is not the problem of fans supporting it in issue form.

I feel like there was a way to present all this and have it absolutely work out. It would have been bumpy (I know for a fact that some people love RIP/ Final Crisis exactly as it has unfolded which is great), but there was a way to do this without upsetting fans and me, the retailer. We could have worked together to assure that Batman people knew that they were in good hands and to ensure they looked at Final Crisis which is an event that some Batman fans may not have made their way too. All it would have taken is a simple "Be sure to alert everyone excited about RIP about Morrison's epic Final Crisis storyline! Reorders are available!"

Though I am buying both Bats and FC — and I knew that Bats was tying into FC — I still think the whole thing's a poke in the eye.

Bats has two solo books, a half-dozen or so team/family books and any number of minis, one-shots and guest appearances. Why can't the big Batman story of the age wrap up in one of those — or at least in an FC tie-in — so that people can go from RIP/Last Rites into the big finish, as opposed to having to buy an entire and (relatively speaking) unrelated event mini-series? And unless the RIP trade includes the relevant bits of FC, it will be incomplete.

Of course, it's still ongoing, so there may be a finish so spectacular, it may all prove worth the weirdness.

Lord Jermaine Retail
12-11-2008, 06:25 AM
Wow, except for the Detective Chimp angle, I somehow got all of that from this issue too!

Must be because I CAN READ ENGLISH.

That's really not necessary. Sometimes Grant Morrison fans, beyond any other fan base, tend to talk down to other people. This is something I've noticed online and in the real world. Not even so much with Ellis or Alan Moore fans, but the Morrison fans will sometimes do exactly what it is you're doing. And I don't know why that's somehow justified or ok. No sir, I don't like it.

Lord Jermaine Retail
12-11-2008, 06:29 AM
Some people don't read interviews, I'm guessing.

Nor should you have to read any interview, article, or take in any other media in conjunction in order to fully receive and enjoy and comic book story. These things can supplement, but should not be mandatory.

Lord Jermaine Retail
12-11-2008, 06:40 AM
Exactly.



Though I am buying both Bats and FC — and I knew that Bats was tying into FC — I still think the whole thing's a poke in the eye.

Bats has two solo books, a half-dozen or so team/family books and any number of minis, one-shots and guest appearances. Why can't the big Batman story of the age wrap up in one of those — or at least in an FC tie-in — so that people can go from RIP/Last Rites into the big finish, as opposed to having to buy an entire and (relatively speaking) unrelated event mini-series? And unless the RIP trade includes the relevant bits of FC, it will be incomplete.

Of course, it's still ongoing, so there may be a finish so spectacular, it may all prove worth the weirdness.

I think that people who are already buying (and are seriously plugged into) Batman and FC are fine. They're probably wondering why we're even having a discussion about this. I just wish we (retailers) had been dealt in because I could have really done a much better job of presenting the storyline. I had Batman and Son and Black Glove collections right there with RIP and recommended those to people who were excited about it so they could get the big picture instead of just wandering into the end game. While I could have done it, it would have been more challenging to direct those people who came for Batman over to Final Crisis. People buying New Avengers for example could clearly see Secret Invasion on the book so it was no leap to direct them to SI main. But for people only there for RIP exclusively, it would have been a stretch even had I known. It might have come across as me trying to sell this ancillary thing when they only wanted the RIP story. So, I don't know...

Akira
12-11-2008, 06:42 AM
That's really not necessary. Sometimes Grant Morrison fans, beyond any other fan base, tend to talk down to other people. This is something I've noticed online and in the real world. Not even so much with Ellis or Alan Moore fans, but the Morrison fans will sometimes do exactly what it is you're doing. And I don't know why that's somehow justified or ok. No sir, I don't like it.

:thumb:

Generic Poster
12-11-2008, 06:51 AM
I think that people who are already buying (and are seriously plugged into) Batman and FC are fine. They're probably wondering why we're even having a discussion about this. I just wish we (retailers) had been dealt in because I could have really done a much better job of presenting the storyline. I had Batman and Son and Black Glove collections right there with RIP and recommended those to people who were excited about it so they could get the big picture instead of just wandering into the end game. While I could have done it, it would have been more challenging to direct those people who came for Batman over to Final Crisis. People buying New Avengers for example could clearly see Secret Invasion on the book so it was no leap to direct them to SI main. But for people only there for RIP exclusively, it would have been a stretch even had I known. It might have come across as me trying to sell this ancillary thing when they only wanted the RIP story. So, I don't know...


DC doesn't seem to want to make your job easy. I also read that DD is now saying that the Superman Forever (or whatever) one-shot is also critical to FC. To me, nothing "critical" to a title should happen outside of that title. Again, this is something else that is going to drive me to trade-only - I don't want to have to guess what may or may not be "critical" - I'll just wait and see. And if turns out I will have needed to buy 3 additional miniseries and 4 one shots to actually get the story out of a particular "event," it's unlikely I'll buy anything at all.

I like monthlies, and that's how I'd prefer to get my comics. But DC isn't making it easy for me to do so right now.

Brother Power the Gong
12-11-2008, 06:55 AM
I think that people who are already buying (and are seriously plugged into) Batman and FC are fine. They're probably wondering why we're even having a discussion about this. I just wish we (retailers) had been dealt in because I could have really done a much better job of presenting the storyline. I had Batman and Son and Black Glove collections right there with RIP and recommended those to people who were excited about it so they could get the big picture instead of just wandering into the end game. While I could have done it, it would have been more challenging to direct those people who came for Batman over to Final Crisis. People buying New Avengers for example could clearly see Secret Invasion on the book so it was no leap to direct them to SI main. But for people only there for RIP exclusively, it would have been a stretch even had I known. It might have come across as me trying to sell this ancillary thing when they only wanted the RIP story. So, I don't know...
I feel your pain on that. Like I said, I don't think it's that good of a thing that RIP readers (esp. those who are onboard for Cowl, etc.) need to read FC — if they had no plans to do so. An FC one-shot (or a Batbook, in-series tie-in) would have been a better choice.

Fun fact: The RIP trade (which includes the Last Rites two-parter, methinks) comes out in February. The FC trade comes out in June.

Ashwin Pande
12-11-2008, 07:00 AM
That's really not necessary. Sometimes Grant Morrison fans, beyond any other fan base, tend to talk down to other people. This is something I've noticed online and in the real world. Not even so much with Ellis or Alan Moore fans, but the Morrison fans will sometimes do exactly what it is you're doing. And I don't know why that's somehow justified or ok. No sir, I don't like it.

Yes. I'm pretty sure Morrison himself would be annoyed by the way they talk down to others.

Ryudo
12-11-2008, 07:01 AM
Just read FC 5. That was weird. :lol:

Xander Boune
12-11-2008, 07:10 AM
That's really not necessary. Sometimes Grant Morrison fans, beyond any other fan base, tend to talk down to other people. This is something I've noticed online and in the real world. Not even so much with Ellis or Alan Moore fans, but the Morrison fans will sometimes do exactly what it is you're doing. And I don't know why that's somehow justified or ok. No sir, I don't like it.

I don't think you're wrong. But at the same time, it often seems to me that Morrison's mainstream work, more than any other, tends to be constantly dismissed by certain types of readers as incoherent nonsense written by a drugged out weirdo just to fuck with us. His work is not like any other work out there, it is challenging and requires rereads, often of related work in other titles. Lots of us enjoy putting the puzzle together, and while I personally couldn't care less about readers dismissing it as nonsense that they don't feel like trying to understand, I can see why others would. His work isn't for everybody, and if you don't like it, that's great. But that kind of dismissing criticism happens all the time (Seaguy, New X-Men, Seven Soldiers, now Batman and FC), and it's probably gotten to the point where some Morrison fans have a knee jerk reaction to any type of criticism, whether the complaints are valid or not.

Lord Jermaine Retail
12-11-2008, 07:10 AM
DC doesn't seem to want to make your job easy. I also read that DD is now saying that the Superman Forever (or whatever) one-shot is also critical to FC. To me, nothing "critical" to a title should happen outside of that title. Again, this is something else that is going to drive me to trade-only - I don't want to have to guess what may or may not be "critical" - I'll just wait and see. And if turns out I will have needed to buy 3 additional miniseries and 4 one shots to actually get the story out of a particular "event," it's unlikely I'll buy anything at all.

I like monthlies, and that's how I'd prefer to get my comics. But DC isn't making it easy for me to do so right now.

I did pick up on that since I had my police scanner on so I have been telling people that Superman Beyond is going to come into play before end and they should consider it a main part of the story.

On top of all these sandbaggings, my DC discount is changing and not for the better. Again, not to make my retailer concerns the concerns of fans. I was already on the warpath and then I read all this so I couldn't hold back the rantings any longer.

Lord Jermaine Retail
12-11-2008, 07:12 AM
Just read FC 5. That was weird. :lol:

FC #5 scared me. Not joking. I wore a Superman animated series Darkseid shirt I had into work and I honestly wanted to take the thing off once I was done with #5. Darkseid is. Darkseid...is. :scared:

ChuckMcButcalf
12-11-2008, 07:18 AM
It wears off?

It does! I promise :)

That being said, I can totally see that RIP and Final Crisis aren't for everyone. It's kind of mind boggling that DC made these stories big events especially since you can't make heads or tails of what's going on until Part 3. Not criticizing Grant so much because, as I said, I dig what he's doing quite a bit, but you'd think you'd want to keep storytelling somewhat conventional so you could reach a wider audience.

xyzzy
12-11-2008, 07:20 AM
I don't think you're wrong. But at the same time, it often seems to me that Morrison's mainstream work, more than any other, tends to be constantly dismissed by certain types of readers as incoherent nonsense written by a drugged out weirdo just to fuck with us. His work is not like any other work out there, it is challenging and requires rereads, often of related work in other titles. Lots of us enjoy putting the puzzle together, and while I personally couldn't care less about readers dismissing it as nonsense that they don't feel like trying to understand, I can see why others would. His work isn't for everybody, and if you don't like it, that's great. But that kind of dismissing criticism happens all the time (Seaguy, New X-Men, Seven Soldiers, now Batman and FC), and it's probably gotten to the point where some Morrison fans have a knee jerk reaction to any type of criticism, whether the complaints are valid or not.

I consider myself a fan of Morrison's work, and I still say that The Filth and Seaguy are just weird for the sake of being weird.

Xander Boune
12-11-2008, 07:29 AM
I consider myself a fan of Morrison's work, and I still say that The Filth and Seaguy are just weird for the sake of being weird.

Haven't read the Filth. Seaguy wasn't a great example, but even that, despite all of its weirdness, was decent satire about modern consumerism and social programming.

TheTravis!
12-11-2008, 07:35 AM
I don't think you're wrong. But at the same time, it often seems to me that Morrison's mainstream work, more than any other, tends to be constantly dismissed by certain types of readers as incoherent nonsense written by a drugged out weirdo just to fuck with us. His work is not like any other work out there, it is challenging and requires rereads, often of related work in other titles. Lots of us enjoy putting the puzzle together, and while I personally couldn't care less about readers dismissing it as nonsense that they don't feel like trying to understand, I can see why others would. His work isn't for everybody, and if you don't like it, that's great. But that kind of dismissing criticism happens all the time (Seaguy, New X-Men, Seven Soldiers, now Batman and FC), and it's probably gotten to the point where some Morrison fans have a knee jerk reaction to any type of criticism, whether the complaints are valid or not.

At the same time, I think it is inarguable that Morrison's style lends itself easier to some types of properties than others. A lot of mainstream DC readers are probably not ready for the type of weirdness he is willing to unleash. :)

Xander Boune
12-11-2008, 07:39 AM
At the same time, I think it is inarguable that Morrison's style lends itself easier to some types of properties than others. A lot of mainstream DC readers are probably not ready for the type of weirdness he is willing to unleash. :)

No arguments there. I'm not complaining, but it's a bold move to put him at the helm of the biggest company event. And by "bold" I mean "really bad business decision."

Criden
12-11-2008, 07:45 AM
No arguments there. I'm not complaining, but it's a bold move to put him at the helm of the biggest company event. And by "bold" I mean "really bad business decision."

Even worse business decision--putting him at the helm of the biggest, and the second biggest. And I say that as a huge fan of both books.

Ashwin Pande
12-11-2008, 07:46 AM
I don't think you're wrong. But at the same time, it often seems to me that Morrison's mainstream work, more than any other, tends to be constantly dismissed by certain types of readers as incoherent nonsense written by a drugged out weirdo just to fuck with us. His work is not like any other work out there, it is challenging and requires rereads, often of related work in other titles. Lots of us enjoy putting the puzzle together, and while I personally couldn't care less about readers dismissing it as nonsense that they don't feel like trying to understand, I can see why others would. His work isn't for everybody, and if you don't like it, that's great. But that kind of dismissing criticism happens all the time (Seaguy, New X-Men, Seven Soldiers, now Batman and FC), and it's probably gotten to the point where some Morrison fans have a knee jerk reaction to any type of criticism, whether the complaints are valid or not.

Like you said, his work isn't for everybody. I like a lot of his work and don't like a lot of his work but I don't think I'm smarter than random person who didn't get The Filth, I don't think I get comics more than a person who didn't like Animal Man or Doom Patrol and I don't think I'm better than any person who didn't like what he did with the X-Men. These kind of fans who are a-plenty do a disservice to Morrison when they condescend and yell at the people who either don't like it or don't get it. It just triggers their antagonism towards him to a greater deal. No one likes being told they're too dumb or too stupid to get something. No one likes being called names just because they didn't follow what happened in a story.

Hell, like you said his stories aren't easy to get and do lend themselves to rereads. Some people don't like it and so what? Big fucking deal. They didn't get or like Batman RIP. So what? How does that make any difference to a person who did get it or like it. There's no need to fight the guy or call him names because he didn't like it.

Those are the fans Lord Jermaine's talking about and they are really annoying and obnoxious.

Dr. Omega
12-11-2008, 07:51 AM
This sort of thing really, really pisses me off:

So I spend months buying Batman but NOT Final Crisis with the (apparently silly) expectation that the Batman story would fucking conclude in Batman, and then I get to find out I actually needed to be reading Final Crisis to get the real end of the story? So, every time I buy a monthly book from DC I'm gambling as to whether the story will actually be finished within that book, and not one I'm not even buying?

I've pre-ordered through the Gaiman issues, but I'm done after that.

See my sig pic..

30 year fan who now loathes the Universe.

Dr. Ω

ChuckMcButcalf
12-11-2008, 08:00 AM
See my sig pic..

30 year fan who now loathes the Universe.

Dr. Ω

I've become more of DC fan in the last year, but yeah, it seems like they're undoing a lot of the really cool stuff that would get fans excited in exchange for "Superman in Space" and shit like that. At least Green Lantern will still kick ass.

Generic Poster
12-11-2008, 08:06 AM
I don't really know how we got off on the tangent of "Morrison's stuff is too hard to understand" as that wasn't my original complaint at all. Dr. Seuss could've been writing Batman, RIP, and my complaint about the actual conclusion being found 3/4 of the way through an entirely different book would remain the same.

But to address the Morrison issue - I like Morrison a lot, but I think his ideas often exceed his execution. I thought Seven Soldiers was a fun experiment, but I was among those who was underwhelmed by the conclusion. I read in an interview(!) that Morrison had trimmed something like 30 pages off the script, and it showed. I don't know where the failure was there - with Morrison, for not keeping his story within the bounds of the format? Editorial, for not letting him expand the ending? Me, for finding the conclusion to be disjointed and choppy because I'm done? I don't know.

On the other hand, his ASS is brilliant. The story is very well structured (and stays confined to that structure), and can be read and enjoyed on numerous different levels (Silver Age pastiche/homage, mythological death/rebirth cycle, etc.)

Colby
12-11-2008, 08:11 AM
Even worse business decision--putting him at the helm of the biggest, and the second biggest. And I say that as a huge fan of both books.

I dunno...wasn't his JLA run a pretty smash success, at least commercially speaking? When he took it over, it was quite the "also ran" of the DC stable.

I mean, it's not working out this time (though I'm finally REALLY liking FC), but I think DC had reason to believe he could sell books.

Generic Poster
12-11-2008, 08:14 AM
I dunno...wasn't his JLA run a pretty smash success, at least commercially speaking? When he took it over, it was quite the "also ran" of the DC stable.

Yeah - his JLA run was a success both financially and (at least in my opinion) qualitatively. Morrison was much more "restrained" there than he has been on RIP and (it sounds like) FC.

Criden
12-11-2008, 08:15 AM
I dunno...wasn't his JLA run a pretty smash success, at least commercially speaking? When he took it over, it was quite the "also ran" of the DC stable.

I mean, it's not working out this time (though I'm finally REALLY liking FC), but I think DC had reason to believe he could sell books.

I think he's definitely become less appealing to the mainstream. His real weirdness never used to seep into his *super-mainstream, popular, headline* DC work. JLA was just really good, and barely weird at all. His superhero work has become less and less easily accessible, and weirder and weirder. So I agree with you, Colbs, as usual--I just think things have changed.

ChuckMcButcalf
12-11-2008, 08:18 AM
I think he's definitely become less appealing to the mainstream. His real weirdness never used to seep into his *super-mainstream, popular, headline* DC work. JLA was just really good, and barely weird at all. His superhero work has become less and less easily accessible, and weirder and weirder. So I agree with you, Colbs, as usual--I just think things have changed.

I think its kind of cool that he's messing with superhero conventions and his take on Batman is super fascinating, but maybe they should have let him loose on Plasticman or something instead.

Colby
12-11-2008, 08:18 AM
I don't really know how we got off on the tangent of "Morrison's stuff is too hard to understand" as that wasn't my original complaint at all. Dr. Seuss could've been writing Batman, RIP, and my complaint about the actual conclusion being found 3/4 of the way through an entirely different book would remain the same.

But to address the Morrison issue - I like Morrison a lot, but I think his ideas often exceed his execution. I thought Seven Soldiers was a fun experiment, but I was among those who was underwhelmed by the conclusion. I read in an interview(!) that Morrison had trimmed something like 30 pages off the script, and it showed. I don't know where the failure was there - with Morrison, for not keeping his story within the bounds of the format? Editorial, for not letting him expand the ending? Me, for finding the conclusion to be disjointed and choppy because I'm done? I don't know.

On the other hand, his ASS is brilliant. The story is very well structured (and stays confined to that structure), and can be read and enjoyed on numerous different levels (Silver Age pastiche/homage, mythological death/rebirth cycle, etc.)

I adore Morrison, but I think he does need some "constraints"- not so much editorial mandate as his own recognition that there are only certain things that will work with the characters. With his own characters, he's obviously got that, he knows how they work and how they don't. I think he's got that with the core DCU characters, too (Especially Superman, maybe not quite as much Batman), and he had it with the X-Men. When he dips down to third-tier characters or "Derivative" characters is when I start to lose the bead...

Generic Poster
12-11-2008, 08:19 AM
I think its kind of cool that he's messing with superhero conventions and his take on Batman is super fascinating, but maybe they should have let him loose on Plasticman or something instead.

That's a great idea! I think he would've been fantastic to put on the Marvel Family too.

Colby
12-11-2008, 08:20 AM
I think he's definitely become less appealing to the mainstream. His real weirdness never used to seep into his *super-mainstream, popular, headline* DC work. JLA was just really good, and barely weird at all. His superhero work has become less and less easily accessible, and weirder and weirder. So I agree with you, Colbs, as usual--I just think things have changed.

Hmmm.

I think there's some wisdom there, Criden, moreso than the thing I just posted.

I wonder if his fallout/reapproachment with DC had anything to do with that...

Criden
12-11-2008, 08:22 AM
I think its kind of cool that he's messing with superhero conventions and his take on Batman is super fascinating, but maybe they should have let him loose on Plasticman or something instead.

I think All-Star books should have been the Morrison self-contained amazing story line.

ChuckMcButcalf
12-11-2008, 08:25 AM
That's a great idea! I think he would've been fantastic to put on the Marvel Family too.

Ohh! Put Morrison on Captain Marvel right now!

Just... please de-nazi Mary. Her current look makes my soul sad.

Criden
12-11-2008, 08:26 AM
Hmmm.

I think there's some wisdom there, Criden, moreso than the thing I just posted.

I wonder if his fallout/reapproachment with DC had anything to do with that...

I suspect he hates everything they stand for, more than anything. :lol:

I wish there was a Grant Morrison forum so I could post a topic called "Aren't you going to say anything, Seaguy?" It would be a lengthy diatribe wherein I poke fun at GM for not speaking out about FC or RIP, post-recent scandals.

ChuckMcButcalf
12-11-2008, 08:28 AM
I suspect he hates everything they stand for, more than anything. :lol:

I wish there was a Grant Morrison forum so I could post a topic called "Aren't you going to say anything, Seaguy?" It would be a lengthy diatribe wherein I poke fun at GM for not speaking out about FC or RIP, post-recent scandals.

Since we're on Morrison, is he under contract with DC?

Generic Poster
12-11-2008, 08:29 AM
Since we're on Morrison, is he under contract with DC?

I don't believe he has an exclusive with DC, but I'm not sure.

ChuckMcButcalf
12-11-2008, 08:32 AM
I don't believe he has an exclusive with DC, but I'm not sure.

In that case... how awesome would his take on Captain Britain and MI13 be?

Just sayin :)

Generic Poster
12-11-2008, 08:33 AM
In that case... how awesome would his take on Captain Britain and MI13 be?

Just sayin :)

Dr. Strange and Thor seem like they'd be good fits too.

Adrian B AWESOME
12-11-2008, 08:34 AM
Yes. I'm pretty sure Morrison himself would be annoyed by the way they talk down to others.

No way. We got our sigils out and did magicks.

ChuckMcButcalf
12-11-2008, 08:35 AM
Dr. Strange and Thor seem like they'd be good fits too.

Dr. Strange definitely. Thor should be left in the capable hands of JMS for all eternity though.

Ashwin Pande
12-11-2008, 08:45 AM
No way. We got our sigils out and did magicks.

But have you been to Kathmandu and seen aliens yet?

Adrian B AWESOME
12-11-2008, 08:46 AM
But have you been to Kathmandu and seen aliens yet?

Yes. But then I retracted the statements years later and meant them as a metaphor, not actuality.

The Human Target
12-11-2008, 08:47 AM
Stop reading big 2 comics then, because for the foreseeable future thats all your going to get.

Join with me in the outlands.

RegularJoe
12-11-2008, 09:00 AM
And to continue through the plan, Batman and Detective will go on hiatus for three months beginning in March, and in March, April and May, we have Battle for the Cowl, which is a three-parter, and we also have a second three-parter, Oracle, following the adventures of Barbara Gordon which follows events of Birds of Prey and picks up some storylines from Final Crisis, and we also have a three part Azrael miniseries that will roll out during that period of time as well, which will be integral to the events taking place in the Batman books.

We’ll also have a series of five one shots with Battle for the Cowl, and two books called Gotham City Gazette, which are the bookends for everything going on explaining the changes going on in Batman’s world, the effects on Gotham City, and how everybody are dealing with the repercussions of what has happened.


i was willing to give BftC a shot and see where batman 'verse went from there. but it seems like this has become a giant money grab for them (more so than usual...businesses need to grab money, i get that) and if the quality is going to be the same as RIP (which was not quality, in my opinion) then i'll have to wait and see about the reader opinion of this stuff.

Petyr Baelish
12-11-2008, 11:02 AM
I am absolutely not a fanboy.

Oh no. Of course. Wherever would I get such an idea?

Evan the Shaggy
12-11-2008, 11:03 AM
Whoa whoa whoa! Hold up!

An Azrael mini-series? HELL YEAH!

Ashwin Pande
12-11-2008, 11:09 AM
Whoa whoa whoa! Hold up!

An Azrael mini-series? HELL YEAH!

Yeah I just notice that now too.

About fucking time.

Akira
12-11-2008, 11:09 AM
Whoa whoa whoa! Hold up!

An Azrael mini-series? HELL YEAH!

I was excited too, till I realized Quesada wouldn't be drawing it.:sad:

VonDoom
12-11-2008, 12:31 PM
The title to this thread has been my reaction to DC's editorial policies and creative direction for like, four years now.

Adrian B AWESOME
12-11-2008, 12:34 PM
Oh no. Of course. Wherever would I get such an idea?

I don't think you understand what a fanboy is.

Ray G.
12-11-2008, 12:36 PM
i was willing to give BftC a shot and see where batman 'verse went from there. but it seems like this has become a giant money grab for them (more so than usual...businesses need to grab money, i get that) and if the quality is going to be the same as RIP (which was not quality, in my opinion) then i'll have to wait and see about the reader opinion of this stuff.

I don't think it's a money grab at all. Keep in mind, these are the ONLY Bat-books during these months. Assuming all of these are monthly (and the five one-shots divided roughly evenly) that's 16 books over the course of three months. Slightly less than one monthly issue of Batman/Detective/Robin/Nightwing/Birds of Prey.

Generic Poster
12-11-2008, 12:37 PM
I don't think it's a money grab at all. Keep in mind, these are the ONLY Bat-books during these months. Assuming all of these are monthly (and the five one-shots divided roughly evenly) that's 16 books over the course of three months. Slightly less than one monthly issue of Batman/Detective/Robin/Nightwing/Birds of Prey.

Yeah, but based on sales numbers, there aren't that many who bought all 5 of those books.

Ray G.
12-11-2008, 12:39 PM
Yeah, but based on sales numbers, there aren't that many who bought all 5 of those books.

Something as big as this likely would have been a crossover, much like Messiah CompleX was. Just the nature of things. So if you're interested in Battle for the Cowl, you likely would have been buying them all anyway.

Besides, we don't know exactly how integral all of these will be. It's entirely possible that Oracle, Azrael, and some of the one-shots will be skippable.

Sy-Klone
12-11-2008, 12:50 PM
On the original topic:

I think this is the nature of serialized comics. Batman: RIP leads into Final Crisis, because Final Crisis is going to have some yet-as-unrevealed impact on the entire DC line. Secret Invasion sets up the next two years worth of stories in New Avengers and Dark Avengers and has a definite impact on the most of the Marvel line for the next few years. It's the nature of the beast.

I think people are blowing the original Didio quote out of proportion. We've been told for the last six months that the "final fate" of Batman will be revealed in Final Crisis. Batman: RIP is a story with a beginning, a middle, and an end. As it is, it works as a complete thing. At the same time, Batman: RIP is part of the larger Morrison run. It looks backward and it looks forward, as all serialized comics are wont to do. That the story of Batman doesn't end with RIP but continues onward to Final Crisis...well, that's what mainstream comics do, I suppose. There are no endings. There are only intermissions.

Finally, as a fan of what Morrison is doing lately, I hope I don't come across as condescending. I don't mean to be. I equate it to people who love LOST. They want to discuss and debate and try to solve the puzzles put forth on that series. Like Xander said, some of us like putting together puzzles, drawing connections, reading, re-reading, thinking about it. Comics can be fun. :)

Adrian B AWESOME
12-11-2008, 01:31 PM
On the original topic:

I think this is the nature of serialized comics. Batman: RIP leads into Final Crisis, because Final Crisis is going to have some yet-as-unrevealed impact on the entire DC line. Secret Invasion sets up the next two years worth of stories in New Avengers and Dark Avengers and has a definite impact on the most of the Marvel line for the next few years. It's the nature of the beast.

I think people are blowing the original Didio quote out of proportion. We've been told for the last six months that the "final fate" of Batman will be revealed in Final Crisis. Batman: RIP is a story with a beginning, a middle, and an end. As it is, it works as a complete thing. At the same time, Batman: RIP is part of the larger Morrison run. It looks backward and it looks forward, as all serialized comics are wont to do. That the story of Batman doesn't end with RIP but continues onward to Final Crisis...well, that's what mainstream comics do, I suppose. There are no endings. There are only intermissions.

Finally, as a fan of what Morrison is doing lately, I hope I don't come across as condescending. I don't mean to be. I equate it to people who love LOST. They want to discuss and debate and try to solve the puzzles put forth on that series. Like Xander said, some of us like putting together puzzles, drawing connections, reading, re-reading, thinking about it. Comics can be fun. :)

And here's where I'll get ripped apart as I'm not really talking about anyone specific on the board, but the seeming majority of comic fans, but people will take personal offense:

People don't want that, Sy. They want instant gratification. Many of the questions people pose about Final Crisis...the answers haven't been revealed. Yet the questions are posed as if they should've known these answers before the book was even opened! In this day and age with things like Wikipedia (which in comics is a great thing...not so much for things that aren't hobbies and sources of entertainment) and all the comic websites dedicated to doing analysis, discussion and disection of books such as this one are out there and not at all hard to find, and people don't feel they should have to search such a thing out if they are confused.

They want spoon-fed storytelling. Plain and simple. They don't want mysteries, they don't want to think outside of the box. They merely want a television replacement. They want to sit there for however many minutes and be entertained with using as little thought as possible. Batman solves a crime and beats the shit out of a bad guy in 22 pages or less. This is the same for television. CSI. Your murder solved in 42 minutes or less or your money back.

I mean, it's not like it's a mystery or something. Final Crisis is 7 issues. Morrison and whoever the fuck is now on art are going to take every single issue to reveal what they want to reveal. And you KNOW you're not going to get clear answers, let alone ANY answers at times when dealing with a writer like Grant Morrison, so if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Just because YOU don't get the answers YOU WANT WHEN YOU WANT THEM doesn't make it a bad comic. Hardly. If you read it and don't like because it's just not you, that's fine. But by no means is it a bad book (even though I still don't like the first two issues).

None of this is said in any sort of anger or weird shit like that. I, unfortunately, am just passionate about this medium.

RegularJoe
12-11-2008, 01:40 PM
And here's where I'll get ripped apart as I'm not really talking about anyone specific on the board, but the seeming majority of comic fans, but people will take personal offense:

People don't want that, Sy. They want instant gratification. Many of the questions people pose about Final Crisis...the answers haven't been revealed. Yet the questions are posed as if they should've known these answers before the book was even opened! In this day and age with things like Wikipedia (which in comics is a great thing...not so much for things that aren't hobbies and sources of entertainment) and all the comic websites dedicated to doing analysis, discussion and disection of books such as this one are out there and not at all hard to find, and people don't feel they should have to search such a thing out if they are confused.

They want spoon-fed storytelling. Plain and simple. They don't want mysteries, they don't want to think outside of the box. They merely want a television replacement. They want to sit there for however many minutes and be entertained with using as little thought as possible. Batman solves a crime and beats the shit out of a bad guy in 22 pages or less. This is the same for television. CSI. Your murder solved in 42 minutes or less or your money back.

I mean, it's not like it's a mystery or something. Final Crisis is 7 issues. Morrison and whoever the fuck is now on art are going to take every single issue to reveal what they want to reveal. And you KNOW you're not going to get clear answers, let alone ANY answers at times when dealing with a writer like Grant Morrison, so if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Just because YOU don't get the answers YOU WANT WHEN YOU WANT THEM doesn't make it a bad comic. Hardly. If you read it and don't like because it's just not you, that's fine. But by no means is it a bad book (even though I still don't like the first two issues).

None of this is said in any sort of anger or weird shit like that. I, unfortunately, am just passionate about this medium.

i have no problem with mysteries. i never really judge anything until the whole thing is out. all through RIP, i was saying 'well, i don't really get it but it's nto done yet so i'll wait and see'. but i do not, in anyway shape or form, think that a story is 'complete' if the final fate of a character (in his supposed final tale) is not made clear in that story.

batman rip was, all along, billed as the final tale of bruce wayne/batman. but it isn't. the final tale of bruce wayne/batman is being held onto for Final Crisis 6 or 7 or whatever. which i had and have no interest in buying. the end of Batman RIP was not an end to anything other than the part of the story taking place in the batman comics. the story will finish up somewhere else. meaning that the 'final tale of batman' is NOT RIP, but the prelude is RIP and the REAL finale tale of batman is in Final Crisis.

i know that in serialized fiction you won't get your answers right away. it's a serial - things take time. but this is just off.

Generic Poster
12-11-2008, 01:44 PM
i have no problem with mysteries. i never really judge anything until the whole thing is out. all through RIP, i was saying 'well, i don't really get it but it's nto done yet so i'll wait and see'. but i do not, in anyway shape or form, think that a story is 'complete' if the final fate of a character (in his supposed final tale) is not made clear in that story.

batman rip was, all along, billed as the final tale of bruce wayne/batman. but it isn't. the final tale of bruce wayne/batman is being held onto for Final Crisis 6 or 7 or whatever. which i had and have no interest in buying. the end of Batman RIP was not an end to anything other than the part of the story taking place in the batman comics. the story will finish up somewhere else. meaning that the 'final tale of batman' is NOT RIP, but the prelude is RIP and the REAL finale tale of batman is in Final Crisis.

i know that in serialized fiction you won't get your answers right away. it's a serial - things take time. but this is just off.

Well said.

Joe Henderson
12-11-2008, 01:47 PM
And here's where I'll get ripped apart as I'm not really talking about anyone specific on the board, but the seeming majority of comic fans, but people will take personal offense:

People don't want that, Sy. They want instant gratification. Many of the questions people pose about Final Crisis...the answers haven't been revealed. Yet the questions are posed as if they should've known these answers before the book was even opened! In this day and age with things like Wikipedia (which in comics is a great thing...not so much for things that aren't hobbies and sources of entertainment) and all the comic websites dedicated to doing analysis, discussion and disection of books such as this one are out there and not at all hard to find, and people don't feel they should have to search such a thing out if they are confused.

They want spoon-fed storytelling. Plain and simple. They don't want mysteries, they don't want to think outside of the box. They merely want a television replacement. They want to sit there for however many minutes and be entertained with using as little thought as possible. Batman solves a crime and beats the shit out of a bad guy in 22 pages or less. This is the same for television. CSI. Your murder solved in 42 minutes or less or your money back.

I mean, it's not like it's a mystery or something. Final Crisis is 7 issues. Morrison and whoever the fuck is now on art are going to take every single issue to reveal what they want to reveal. And you KNOW you're not going to get clear answers, let alone ANY answers at times when dealing with a writer like Grant Morrison, so if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Just because YOU don't get the answers YOU WANT WHEN YOU WANT THEM doesn't make it a bad comic. Hardly. If you read it and don't like because it's just not you, that's fine. But by no means is it a bad book (even though I still don't like the first two issues).

None of this is said in any sort of anger or weird shit like that. I, unfortunately, am just passionate about this medium.

No, people like a good mystery. But there's a good way to do it in a serialized medium and a bad way. Morrison made a mistake, as far as I'm concerned, with how he decided to dole out the mystery and the reveals.

Brubaker's Cap run, for example, started off with a mystery--"who is the Winter Soldier?" And people were intrigued, and then satisfied, because he did a great job of doling out just the right amount of information in the right doses.

Sy-Klone
12-11-2008, 01:51 PM
batman rip was, all along, billed as the final tale of bruce wayne/batman. but it isn't. the final tale of bruce wayne/batman is being held onto for Final Crisis 6 or 7 or whatever. which i had and have no interest in buying. the end of Batman RIP was not an end to anything other than the part of the story taking place in the batman comics. the story will finish up somewhere else. meaning that the 'final tale of batman' is NOT RIP, but the prelude is RIP and the REAL finale tale of batman is in Final Crisis.

That's a fair point, and I have no hesitation about faulting DC's marketing of R.I.P. To my knowledge, Morrison never said R.I.P. was intended to be the final tale of Bruce Wayne or Batman. Not in any of the interviews I've read at least. But DC marketed this thing as an ending, and that simply wasn't true. It was an ending in a figurative sense, but not in the sense that DC would have you believe.

In that respect, I'll absolutely agree with the anger directed toward DC. DC hyped R.I.P. to be some big ending and it turned out not to be. My suggestion: Do what I do. Don't believe the hype. :)

Arion
12-11-2008, 01:52 PM
On the original topic:

I think this is the nature of serialized comics. Batman: RIP leads into Final Crisis, because Final Crisis is going to have some yet-as-unrevealed impact on the entire DC line. Secret Invasion sets up the next two years worth of stories in New Avengers and Dark Avengers and has a definite impact on the most of the Marvel line for the next few years. It's the nature of the beast.

. :)

You make a good point.

Adrian B AWESOME
12-11-2008, 01:53 PM
No, people like a good mystery. But there's a good way to do it in a serialized medium and a bad way. Morrison made a mistake, as far as I'm concerned, with how he decided to dole out the mystery and the reveals.

Brubaker's Cap run, for example, started off with a mystery--"who is the Winter Soldier?" And people were intrigued, and then satisfied, because he did a great job of doling out just the right amount of information in the right doses.

I don't think in this case it's a good vs. bad thing, but rather a conventional vs. unconventional thing.

Fake Pat
12-11-2008, 01:53 PM
You make a good point.

Except people aren't angry about Batman's story continuing.

They're angry over the specific story-arc of RIP continuing. Which it is.

These are entirely different things.

Sy-Klone
12-11-2008, 02:00 PM
Except people aren't angry about Batman's story continuing.

They're angry over the specific story-arc of RIP continuing. Which it is.

These are entirely different things.

How is R.I.P. continuing in Final Crisis? R.I.P. as a story is done. It had a beginning, it had a middle, and the conflict that drove R.I.P. ended. R.I.P. was about the Black Glove and Doctor Hurt versus Batman. Final Crisis is about Darkseid and the Fourth World. They're two different stories. The only thing they have in common is Batman.

Fake Pat
12-11-2008, 02:03 PM
How is R.I.P. continuing in Final Crisis? R.I.P. as a story is done. It had a beginning, it had a middle, and the conflict that drove R.I.P. ended. R.I.P. was about the Black Glove and Doctor Hurt versus Batman. Final Crisis is about Darkseid and the Fourth World. They're two different stories. The only thing they have in common is Batman.

Incorrect.

DD: Here’s the conundrum on this one. And this is reflective of the world that we live in now – the world of collected editions. The R.I.P. story was always meant to play through to the end of Final Crisis - always. The thing is, we had to come up with a very complete story in “Batman R.I.P.” as it existed in its title. The reality is that the “Batman R.I.P.” story does not conclude until Final Crisis #6. There are also issues #682 and #683 of Batman that feed directly into Final Crisis #6, and we’ll have a big finale to the Batman storyline. That’s how it plays out.



Not the continuing story of Batman. "Batman RIP".

Adrian B AWESOME
12-11-2008, 02:03 PM
How is R.I.P. continuing in Final Crisis? R.I.P. as a story is done. It had a beginning, it had a middle, and the conflict that drove R.I.P. ended. R.I.P. was about the Black Glove and Doctor Hurt versus Batman. Final Crisis is about Darkseid and the Fourth World. They're two different stories. The only thing they have in common is Batman.

Honestly, a lot of it comes from Didio.

And I don't think he means RIP more or less, but the end of Morrison's current run. I mean, heck, even though 667-669, 672-675 don't have RIP on them, they are just as important to RIP...

Adrian B AWESOME
12-11-2008, 02:05 PM
Incorrect.

DD: Here’s the conundrum on this one. And this is reflective of the world that we live in now – the world of collected editions. The R.I.P. story was always meant to play through to the end of Final Crisis - always. The thing is, we had to come up with a very complete story in “Batman R.I.P.” as it existed in its title. The reality is that the “Batman R.I.P.” story does not conclude until Final Crisis #6. There are also issues #682 and #683 of Batman that feed directly into Final Crisis #6, and we’ll have a big finale to the Batman storyline. That’s how it plays out.



Not the continuing story of Batman. "Batman RIP".


And I'm chalking that up to Didio being an idiot.

This is a quote from Morrison about it:


"First it's R.I.P., and we'll see how that winds up for Batman. Then the two-parter mentioned (Batman #682-683) goes through Batman's whole career, in a big summing up of everything that also ties directly into Final Crisis. And Final Crisis is where we see the final fate of Batman."

From that, it's absolutely what Sy is arguing.

Sy-Klone
12-11-2008, 02:06 PM
Incorrect.

DD: Here’s the conundrum on this one. And this is reflective of the world that we live in now – the world of collected editions. The R.I.P. story was always meant to play through to the end of Final Crisis - always. The thing is, we had to come up with a very complete story in “Batman R.I.P.” as it existed in its title. The reality is that the “Batman R.I.P.” story does not conclude until Final Crisis #6. There are also issues #682 and #683 of Batman that feed directly into Final Crisis #6, and we’ll have a big finale to the Batman storyline. That’s how it plays out.

Not the continuing story of Batman. "Batman RIP".

I'm not going to parse DiDio's words any further. It's semantics, and I don't want to take a trip into DiDio's head. I'll concede that he said that. I don't think it means what you think it means.

If Doctor Hurt and the Black Glove pop up in Final Crisis, I'll gladly concede the point. But if the only link between the two stories is Batman's final fate, then I return to my point about serialized storytelling being the nature of the beast.

Fake Pat
12-11-2008, 02:07 PM
And I'm chalking that up to Didio being an idiot.

HIGHLY possible.

But right now, he certainly knows better than any of us does. We'll have to see what happens in #6.

Joe Henderson
12-11-2008, 02:12 PM
I don't think in this case it's a good vs. bad thing, but rather a conventional vs. unconventional thing.

I think you can go unconventional and still please your audience...but in this case, in my opinion, he only accomplished the unconventional part. I'm all for unconventional versus taking the easy route, and Morrison often is able do so brilliantly; just think it didn't work out this time.

Adrian B AWESOME
12-11-2008, 02:13 PM
I think you can go unconventional and still please your audience...but in this case, in my opinion, he only accomplished the unconventional part. I'm all for unconventional versus taking the easy route, and Morrison often is able do so brilliantly; just think it didn't work out this time.

Ok, I can buy that. I disagree, but I get it. ;)

Dr. Omega
12-11-2008, 02:34 PM
At least Green Lantern will still kick ass.
If you think Powers Rangers Rainbow Warriors kick ass, then sure..


Dr. Ω

Adrian B AWESOME
12-11-2008, 02:36 PM
If you think Powers Rangers Rainbow Warriors kick ass, then sure..


Dr. Ω

And people call ME childish. :lol:

kylethoreau
12-11-2008, 02:37 PM
I think All-Star books should have been the Morrison self-contained amazing story line.

and make sure to name it that

Criden
12-11-2008, 02:44 PM
and make sure to name it that

Definitely!!

Petyr Baelish
12-11-2008, 06:38 PM
I don't think you understand what a fanboy is.

Or the definition of the word "conclusion" I've been mistakenly using all my life apparently.