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greg donovan
10-13-2008, 05:17 PM
it is term that is being tossed about a lot lately. but i dont think it means exaclty what everyone that is using it thinks it means.

there are so many varrying degrees and types of socialism out there.

they range from total govt ownership to ownership of everything by the people in communes.

sometimes it is viewed as a transition to communism and sometimes it is just the national ownership of a select few key institutions.

sometimes it is supposed to happen as a natural evolution of society and sometimes it is supposed to happen via revolution.

and go.

chess
10-13-2008, 05:43 PM
But, what are you asking?

There are many books that talk about the challenges of socialism. Are you interested in reading them?

Taxman
10-13-2008, 05:57 PM
There are some pundits of the right who use "socialist" as a blank term to describe anyone who is ton the left of themselves.

greg donovan
10-13-2008, 05:58 PM
But, what are you asking?

There are many books that talk about the challenges of socialism. Are you interested in reading them?

a little. i just wanted to talk about what people here thought.

what exaclty is our gov'ts responsibility to us? how much power and control should they have?

Taxman
10-13-2008, 06:04 PM
a little. i just wanted to talk about what people here thought.

what exaclty is our gov'ts responsibility to us? how much power and control should they have?Less than what there is now.

The number of people who really want the amount of involvement we have seen recently in the financial systems is extremely limited. There are just people who felt it was necessary.

DaveCummings
10-13-2008, 06:21 PM
There are some pundits of the right who use "socialist" as a blank term to describe anyone who is ton the left of themselves.


Yeah, terms like Marxist and Socialist are tossed around way too much by some on the right, much as Nazi and Fascist are tossed around way too much by some on the left. People are way too eager to throw that card out there...much like the Racist card, to the point to where the term is almost not even taken seriously anymore, because of that overuse.

NATE!
10-13-2008, 06:24 PM
It sucks dick. End of discussion.

Brian Defferding
10-13-2008, 06:25 PM
What types of socialism are we talking about? Social Democracy, Marxism, or a form of Moderate Socialism?

Either way, I'd fight tooth and nail to crush them all down to pebbles :D But that's probably something you already knew.

greg donovan
10-13-2008, 06:32 PM
What types of socialism are we talking about? Social Democracy, Marxism, or a form of Moderate Socialism?

Either way, I'd fight tooth and nail to crush them all down to pebbles :D But that's probably something you already knew.

i have no idea what you are taking about. :wink:

chess
10-13-2008, 06:35 PM
Yeah, terms like Marxist and Socialist are tossed around way too much by some on the right, much as Nazi and Fascist are tossed around way too much by some on the left. People are way too eager to throw that card out there...much like the Racist card, to the point to where the term is almost not even taken seriously anymore, because of that overuse.

Well, you seem to have hit upon something...

Marx and Engels wrote about what was to become "socialism". When we use the word "marxism", we could easily use the word "socialism".

chess
10-13-2008, 06:40 PM
Greg,

If you are trying to get a handle on "what is socialism", "what are the challenges of socialism", and "why it fails"... I suggest reading about it.

Mises wrote a great book (one of the best) about the subject. http://www.amazon.com/SOCIALISM-Lib-Works-Ludwig-Mises/dp/0913966630

Another book is written by Thomas Sowell. Sowell was a Black Panther during the 1960's. Black Panthers believe in socialism. He sought to defend Marx's works and ended up writing a book about the challenges facing socialism. http://www.amazon.com/Marxism-Philosophy-Economics-Thomas-Sowell/dp/0688064264/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223952018&sr=1-1

greg donovan
10-13-2008, 06:43 PM
Greg,

If you are trying to get a handle on "what is socialism", "what are the challenges of socialism", and "why it fails"... I suggest reading about it.

Mises wrote a great book (one of the best) about the subjecthttp://www.amazon.com/SOCIALISM-Lib-Works-Ludwig-Mises/dp/0913966630

Another book is written by Thomas Sowell. Sowell was a Black Panther during the 1960's. Black Panthers believe in socialism. He sought out to defend Marx's works and ended up writing a book about the challenges facing socialism. http://www.amazon.com/Marxism-Philosophy-Economics-Thomas-Sowell/dp/0688064264/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223952018&sr=1-1
i have a pretty good handle on it. i was more or loess looking to have a conversation about stuff that dave was saying.

my original posts was a little rambly i guess.

this board really is a smart message board. it may seem like our debates are dogpiles and get out of hand but you should see some of the other stuff out there in the "tubes". ugh.

Dreaded Anomaly
10-13-2008, 07:04 PM
Well, you seem to have hit upon something...

Marx and Engels wrote about what was to become "socialism". When we use the word "marxism", we could easily use the word "socialism".

Also, Marx himself wasn't a Marxist.

RickLM
10-13-2008, 07:17 PM
Also, Marx himself wasn't a Marxist.


But he was a sexist who knew how to keep his bitches in place!

Jamie Coville
10-13-2008, 07:31 PM
Yes, democratic socialism does work. It's best if it's key, something everybody needs institutions like Education, Health Care, Social Security, Infrastructure, civil services (police, firefighters, etc..), some public housing and a few other odds and ends.

At least one Province in Canada (Quebec) have socialized auto insurance. It's required by law that every car owner has insurance on their vehicle. As a results the rates are cheaper, paying for accidents are much cheaper and less stressful and any profits go into the public coffers to help pay for other stuff. Because it's something that effects everybody equally if it gets abused the politicians in power can find themselves out of power unless they fix it.

In Provinces where auto insurance is private it's much more expensive and very anti competitive. You needed it so everybody keeps their rates high and used any excuse to jack them up. Switching to another company doesn't get your rates any lower. They're all in lockstep in fucking their customers equally rather than cutting each other for smaller profits. And there is nothing the public can do about it, except for vote for somebody that promises to change the system.

dasNdanger
10-13-2008, 07:34 PM
It sucks dick. End of discussion.

Wow. Then all you guys should LOVE it!

;)

das

stevapalooza
10-13-2008, 10:25 PM
Is socialism the one where you have a Queen?

greg donovan
10-13-2008, 10:33 PM
Is socialism the one where you have a Queen?
nah, it is the one where we all hang about talking with one another over drinks before dinner.

Ashwin Pande
10-13-2008, 10:44 PM
It's a system that when applied on a government level can't work. A government can have socialist programs in place but each according to his abilities to each according to his means can't realistically work.

It's a utopian system that fails because humans aren't ideal creatures. We are creatures of greed and cravings. Socialism only works when you kill the ideas of greed and craving in which case you no longer have humans, you have cogs in factories.

DaveCummings
10-14-2008, 03:52 AM
It's a system that when applied on a government level can't work. A government can have socialist programs in place but each according to his abilities to each according to his means can't realistically work.

It's a utopian system that fails because humans aren't ideal creatures. We are creatures of greed and cravings. Socialism only works when you kill the ideas of greed and craving in which case you no longer have humans, you have cogs in factories.


It's just like Libertarianism. It's a system that sounds great (and I totally subscribe to). But, applied to a large government level, it doesn't work.