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NeverWanderer
06-29-2008, 07:23 PM
http://news.aol.com/story/_a/critics-fear-collider-could-doom-earth/20080628165609990001

I decided this deserved it's own thread.


Critics Fear Collider Could Doom Earth
By DOUGLAS BIRCH, AP
Posted: 2008-06-29 23:04:48
Filed Under: Science News
MEYRIN, Switzerland (June 29) - The most powerful atom-smasher ever built could make some bizarre discoveries, such as invisible matter or extra dimensions in space, after it is switched on in August.

But some critics fear the Large Hadron Collider could exceed physicists' wildest conjectures: Will it spawn a black hole that could swallow Earth? Or spit out particles that could turn the planet into a hot dead clump?

The Pros and Cons
Martial Trezzini, Keystone / AP
Scientists have been working for a generation to build the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) particle collider, called the largest science experiment in history. It consists of a ring of supercooled magnets 17 miles in circumference, buried 330 feet below the French-Swiss border.

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Ridiculous, say scientists at the European Organization for Nuclear Research, known by its French initials CERN - some of whom have been working for a generation on the $5.8 billion collider, or LHC.

"Obviously, the world will not end when the LHC switches on," said project leader Lyn Evans.

David Francis, a physicist on the collider's huge ATLAS particle detector, smiled when asked whether he worried about black holes and hypothetical killer particles known as strangelets.

"If I thought that this was going to happen, I would be well away from here," he said.

The collider basically consists of a ring of supercooled magnets 17 miles in circumference attached to huge barrel-shaped detectors. The ring, which straddles the French and Swiss border, is buried 330 feet underground.

The machine, which has been called the largest scientific experiment in history, isn't expected to begin test runs until August, and ramping up to full power could take months. But once it is working, it is expected to produce some startling findings.

Scientists plan to hunt for signs of the invisible "dark matter" and "dark energy" that make up more than 96 percent of the universe, and hope to glimpse the elusive Higgs boson, a so-far undiscovered particle thought to give matter its mass.

The collider could find evidence of extra dimensions, a boon for superstring theory, which holds that quarks, the particles that make up atoms, are infinitesimal vibrating strings.

The theory could resolve many of physics' unanswered questions, but requires about 10 dimensions - far more than the three spatial dimensions our senses experience.

The safety of the collider, which will generate energies seven times higher than its most powerful rival, at Fermilab near Chicago, has been debated for years. The physicist Martin Rees has estimated the chance of an accelerator producing a global catastrophe at one in 50 million - long odds, to be sure, but about the same as winning some lotteries.

By contrast, a CERN team this month issued a report concluding that there is "no conceivable danger" of a cataclysmic event. The report essentially confirmed the findings of a 2003 CERN safety report, and a panel of five prominent scientists not affiliated with CERN, including one Nobel laureate, endorsed its conclusions.

Critics of the LHC filed a lawsuit in a Hawaiian court in March seeking to block its startup, alleging that there was "a significant risk that ... operation of the Collider may have unintended consequences which could ultimately result in the destruction of our planet."

One of the plaintiffs, Walter L. Wagner, a physicist and lawyer, said Wednesday CERN's safety report, released June 20, "has several major flaws," and his views on the risks of using the particle accelerator had not changed.

On Tuesday, U.S. Justice Department lawyers representing the Department of Energy and the National Science Foundation filed a motion to dismiss the case.

The two agencies have contributed $531 million to building the collider, and the NSF has agreed to pay $87 million of its annual operating costs. Hundreds of American scientists will participate in the research.

The lawyers called the plaintiffs' allegations "extraordinarily speculative," and said "there is no basis for any conceivable threat" from black holes or other objects the LHC might produce. A hearing on the motion is expected in late July or August.

In rebutting doomsday scenarios, CERN scientists point out that cosmic rays have been bombarding the earth, and triggering collisions similar to those planned for the collider, since the solar system formed 4.5 billion years ago.

And so far, Earth has survived.

"The LHC is only going to reproduce what nature does every second, what it has been doing for billions of years," said John Ellis, a British theoretical physicist at CERN.

Critics like Wagner have said the collisions caused by accelerators could be more hazardous than those of cosmic rays.

Both may produce micro black holes, subatomic versions of cosmic black holes - collapsed stars whose gravity fields are so powerful that they can suck in planets and other stars.

But micro black holes produced by cosmic ray collisions would likely be traveling so fast they would pass harmlessly through the earth.

Micro black holes produced by a collider, the skeptics theorize, would move more slowly and might be trapped inside the earth's gravitational field - and eventually threaten the planet.

Ellis said doomsayers assume that the collider will create micro black holes in the first place, which he called unlikely. And even if they appeared, he said, they would instantly evaporate, as predicted by the British physicist Stephen Hawking.

As for strangelets, CERN scientists point out that they have never been proven to exist. They said that even if these particles formed inside the Collider they would quickly break down.

When the LHC is finally at full power, two beams of protons will race around the huge ring 11,000 times a second in opposite directions. They will travel in two tubes about the width of fire hoses, speeding through a vacuum that is colder and emptier than outer space.

Their trajectory will be curved by supercooled magnets - to guide the beams around the rings and prevent the packets of protons from cutting through the surrounding magnets like a blowtorch.

The paths of these beams will cross, and a few of the protons in them will collide, at a series of cylindrical detectors along the ring. The two largest detectors are essentially huge digital cameras, each weighing thousands of tons, capable of taking millions of snapshots a second.

Each year the detectors will generate 15 petabytes of data, the equivalent of a stack of CDs 12 miles tall. The data will require a high speed global network of computers for analysis.

Wagner and others filed a lawsuit to halt operation of the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider, or RHIC, at the Brookhaven National Laboratory in New York state in 1999. The courts dismissed the suit.

The leafy campus of CERN, a short drive from the shores of Lake Geneva, hardly seems like ground zero for doomsday. And locals don't seem overly concerned. Thousands attended an open house here this spring.

"There is a huge army of scientists who know what they are talking about and are sleeping quite soundly as far as concerns the LHC," said project leader Evans.

Benel Germosen
06-29-2008, 07:25 PM
http://my.execpc.com/~icicle/Atomsmasher.jpg

?

Slewo.O
06-29-2008, 07:27 PM
http://my.execpc.com/~icicle/Atomsmasher.jpg

?

My thoughts exactly.

RoShambo
06-29-2008, 07:27 PM
I could've sworn that we'd already had a thread about it here somewhere?

NeverWanderer
06-29-2008, 07:28 PM
I could've sworn that we'd already had a thread about it here somewhere?

Well, I just posted the link in my Apocalypse Watch 2008 thread before deciding to give it its own spotlight.

But it's possible someone else did already post about it.

And if they did, I entirely don't care. :)

Kingsumo
06-29-2008, 07:31 PM
Well that's just peachy

RoShambo
06-29-2008, 07:31 PM
Oh yeah:Here it is. (http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showthread.php?t=145456) Sorry I wasn't trying to complain, just wanted to read more info about it.

NeverWanderer
06-29-2008, 07:32 PM
Ridiculous, say scientists at the European Organization for Nuclear Research, known by its French initials CERN - some of whom have been working for a generation on the $5.8 billion collider, or LHC.

"Obviously, the world will not end when the LHC switches on," said project leader Lyn Evans.

"But how do you know?"

"Because I did it five minutes ago."


Tell me that wouldn't have been awesome. :)

NeverWanderer
06-29-2008, 07:33 PM
Oh yeah:Here it is. (http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showthread.php?t=145456) Sorry I wasn't trying to complain, just wanted to read more info about it.

Aw, I'm just being a dick. :) No worries.

But hahah! This is new! The world might end! That's new, right?!


EDIT: Fuck.

Kingsumo
06-29-2008, 07:34 PM
Tell me that wouldn't have been awesome. :)

Aye, just so long as the world did not collapse in on itself shortly after.

FredC
06-29-2008, 07:50 PM
Shit. Just what I need to be worried about right now.

If this opens up a black hole, we're all fucked. Then we don't get an Avengers movie. Nice going, science. :mad:

Dreaded Anomaly
06-29-2008, 07:56 PM
As a physics major, I can tell you that this is bullshit.

A) A micro black hole would still only have the mass of a proton, and therefore the gravity. It will evaporate from Hawking radiation long before it gains enough mass to affect anything on the macro level.

B) Strangelets are completely hypothetical; there's no proof that they even exist, let alone that they would have the fear-inducing effects of converting regular matter into strange matter. Most scientists thought that, if they existed, we would see some from the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider at Brookhaven, and we haven't. The LHC might produce more strange quarks, but even then it's unlikely that strangelets would form from them.

The Chicken Littles of the world should go back to looking for secret codes in Revelations, or whatever.

NeverWanderer
06-29-2008, 07:59 PM
As a physics major, I can tell you that this is bullshit.

A) A micro black hole would still only have the mass of a proton, and therefore the gravity. It will evaporate from Hawking radiation long before it gains enough mass to affect anything on the macro level.

B) Strangelets are completely hypothetical; there's no proof that they even exist, let alone that they would have the fear-inducing effects of converting regular matter into strange matter. Most scientists thought that, if they existed, we would see some from the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider at Brookhaven, and we haven't. The LHC might produce more strange quarks, but even then it's unlikely that strangelets would form from them.

The Chicken Littles of the world should go back to looking for secret codes in Revelations, or whatever.

But how can you know?

HOW CAN YOU KNOW??

James Patrick
06-29-2008, 08:01 PM
pros: science.
cons: destruction of world.

Bryan H
06-29-2008, 08:13 PM
So, who's the first one to jump in and try for superpowers?

Dreaded Anomaly
06-29-2008, 08:13 PM
But how can you know?

HOW CAN YOU KNOW??

According to the strangelet hypothesis, all matter will decay to strange matter... eventually. Nuclear decay is a random process, so any atom around you could become strange matter and destroy the world.

We deal in probabilities, not possibilities.

Michael Blacklist
06-29-2008, 08:53 PM
So, who's the first one to jump in and try for superpowers?

When this was first brought up, I figured that if it happened, I would drive head on into the event.

Benel Germosen
06-29-2008, 08:58 PM
When this was first brought up, I figured that if it happened, I would drive head on into the event.

Agreed. Either I get superstrength or I get leukemia and die.

edwardmblake
06-29-2008, 09:26 PM
Ridiculous, say scientists at the European Organization for Nuclear Research, known by its French initials CERN - some of whom have been working for a generation on the $5.8 billion collider, or LHC.

"Obviously, the world will not end when the LHC switches on," said project leader Lyn Evans.

"But how do you know?"

"Because I did it five minutes ago."

You have made this the Watchmen of LHC threads. Good job!

MAK15
06-29-2008, 09:54 PM
Tell me that wouldn't have been awesome. :)

that woulda been something else

NeverWanderer
06-29-2008, 09:57 PM
You have made this the Watchmen of LHC threads. Good job!

Thenkew, thenkew. I'll be signing autographs in the lobby.



that woulda been something else

'Awesome' is an else! :D

thatguyfromsyracuse
06-29-2008, 10:00 PM
Isn't this one of the theories about what started The Mist?

TheChronoTrigger
06-29-2008, 10:05 PM
http://news.aol.com/story/_a/critics-fear-collider-could-doom-earth/20080628165609990001

I decided this deserved it's own thread.


The paths of these beams will cross, and a few of the protons in them will collide, at a series of cylindrical detectors along the ring. The two largest detectors are essentially huge digital cameras, each weighing thousands of tons, capable of taking millions of snapshots a second.



http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/5783/crossingthebeamsam7.jpg

Jason California
06-29-2008, 10:17 PM
Report Confirms Large Hadron Collider Will Not Spawn Doomsday Scenario, End World As We Know It (http://gizmodo.com/5018582/report-confirms-large-hadron-collider-will-not-spawn-doomsday-scenario-end-world-as-we-know-it)

http://gizmodo.com/assets/images/gizmodo/2008/06/LHC_arial.JPGA new report from CERN allegedly puts the final nail in the coffin of doomsday theorists claiming the Large Hadron Collider (http://gizmodo.com/tag/large-hadron-collider/) will result in a reality-ending black hole on Earth. In a word, the report calls the project "safe," and reiterates CERN's original argument (http://gizmodo.com/374066/cern-to-morons-large-hadron-collider-wont-destroy-earth-morons) that even the most powerful collisions planned for the LHC are nothing compared to what nature has done already for billions of years. "The universe as a whole conducts more than 10 million million LHC-like experiments per second. The possibility of any dangerous consequences contradicts what astronomers see - stars and galaxies still exist," said a layperson's summary of the report. Conspiracy theorists will no doubt keep on keeping on about the LHC, regardless of the report, but for the more level-headed amongst us, there's a certain finality to CERN's findings. Not end-of-the-world finality, mind you, just peace of mind. The countdown timer (http://gizmodo.com/5015451/final-countdown-for-large-hadron-collider-activation-prepare-your-escape-pods) says 16 days until activation. [Cosmic Log (http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/06/20/1158097.aspx)]

thatguyfromsyracuse
06-29-2008, 10:19 PM
Report Confirms Large Hadron Collider Will Not Spawn Doomsday Scenario, End World As We Know It (http://gizmodo.com/5018582/report-confirms-large-hadron-collider-will-not-spawn-doomsday-scenario-end-world-as-we-know-it)

http://gizmodo.com/assets/images/gizmodo/2008/06/LHC_arial.JPGA new report from CERN allegedly puts the final nail in the coffin of doomsday theorists claiming the Large Hadron Collider (http://gizmodo.com/tag/large-hadron-collider/) will result in a reality-ending black hole on Earth. In a word, the report calls the project "safe," and reiterates CERN's original argument (http://gizmodo.com/374066/cern-to-morons-large-hadron-collider-wont-destroy-earth-morons) that even the most powerful collisions planned for the LHC are nothing compared to what nature has done already for billions of years. "The universe as a whole conducts more than 10 million million LHC-like experiments per second. The possibility of any dangerous consequences contradicts what astronomers see - stars and galaxies still exist," said a layperson's summary of the report. Conspiracy theorists will no doubt keep on keeping on about the LHC, regardless of the report, but for the more level-headed amongst us, there's a certain finality to CERN's findings. Not end-of-the-world finality, mind you, just peace of mind. The countdown timer (http://gizmodo.com/5015451/final-countdown-for-large-hadron-collider-activation-prepare-your-escape-pods) says 16 days until activation. [Cosmic Log (http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/06/20/1158097.aspx)]

As long as it's enough to send a piece of shrapnel through my toilet that enters my urethra when I'm taking a piss and get superpowers, it'll be cool.

Jason California
06-29-2008, 10:27 PM
As long as it's enough to send a piece of shrapnel through my toilet that enters my urethra when I'm taking a piss and get superpowers, it'll be cool.

What the fuck is on your face? You look like someone from the movie Squirm.

thatguyfromsyracuse
06-29-2008, 10:36 PM
What the fuck is on your face? You look like someone from the movie Squirm.

You should see the other guy!!

Jason California
06-29-2008, 10:39 PM
You should see the other guy!!

whoa, is that really blood? you should make a thread telling the story. I bet that one would be a success.
;-)

thatguyfromsyracuse
06-29-2008, 10:41 PM
whoa, is that really blood? you should make a thread telling the story. I bet that one would be a success.
;-)

I wish I had an interesting story like that. Honestly, I was just bored and started fooling around with my "bruise stack".



That sounds kind of dirty. :lol:

Jason California
06-29-2008, 10:47 PM
I wish I had an interesting story like that. Honestly, I was just bored and started fooling around with my "bruise stack".



That sounds kind of dirty. :lol:


What is a "bruise sack"?

Slewo.O
06-29-2008, 10:49 PM
What is a "bruise sack"?

Maybe it's like "boxing the clown"? :lol:

thatguyfromsyracuse
06-29-2008, 10:50 PM
What is a "bruise sack"?

It's just a combo of colors for making bruises. Still working on making it look completely real.

And it's "bruise stack" not "bruise sack" Utah, ya jerk!

:lol:

Jason California
06-29-2008, 10:51 PM
It's just a combo of colors for making bruises. Still working on making it look completely real.

Ah, ok.

From this picture the only thing that looks like it might be real is your black eye. the other stuff looks hokey.

Jason California
06-29-2008, 10:52 PM
It's just a combo of colors for making bruises. Still working on making it look completely real.

And it's "bruise stack" not "bruise sack" Utah, ya jerk!

:lol:


I should try to read better than I type.

thatguyfromsyracuse
06-29-2008, 10:53 PM
Ah, ok.

From this picture the only thing that looks like it might be real is your black eye. the other stuff looks hokey.

I never said I was good.


I should try to read better than I type.

:lol: