Why is there an oil crisis?

[SteveFlack]

Ok, at times, I am not a smart person. I am completely clueless about this current oil crisis, and the rising gas prices. Can someone please explain to me how this came to be?

Is it all a sign that we are running out of oil, and are doomed as a society due to our reliance on it? I'm slightly scared.

-Steve!

[Gordon Chumway]

Because we invaded Iraq and disrupted the flow of their oil, increasing demand on other countries, etc. etc. etc.

[Ryan Elliott]

I was going to post a picture of Bush but...fuck man, when the hell is he gone?

[Pat Shatner]

http://www.nrbinc.com/Las-Vegas-Shows/Carrot-Top/carrot-top-main.jpg

As far as I know it's his fault.

[NickT]

Because DC like their summer events?

[A.Huerta]

The running out of oil excuse is pretty stupid for increasing the price. They know we have a limited supply, they make it seem like they just found out.

[Servo106]

Not enough dinosaurs died. I need to fix my time machine!

[tim nixon]

1. limited supply
2. war torn area where most of it is
3. increase in number of industrialized nations

[NATE!]

In other words, no one really knows.

[Ray G.]

It's running out, hippies won't let us drill, and fat cats won't let us work on alternatives.

Humanity sucks, let's turn it over to the chinchillas.

[aviolentmist]

Supply and demand. Everything is always supply and demand. From oil, to currency, to the likelihood of you getting laid. Everything.

It's worth noting that the price of oil in gold has staid the same for over 30 years.

[Servo106]

Supply and demand. Everything is always supply and demand. From oil, to currency, to the likelihood of you getting laid. Everything.

woah woah woah. Really?

[RebootedCorpse]

Because OPEC has cut production in the name of increased profits, refineries have been shut down by oil executives in the name of increased profits and oil investors/speculators have bought oil futures driving up the price in the name of increased profits.
And we are paying for their increased profits.

[aviolentmist]

woah woah woah. Really?

Of course. It' isn't just about the exchange of money, babycakes. it can be applied to just about everything involving human-human interaction.

[Servo106]

Of course. It' isn't just about the exchange of money, babycakes. it can be applied to just about everything involving human-human interaction.

Damnit.

Again I need to fix my time machine.

[SteveZegers]

I thought it was because the guy at my Shell station is an A-hole.

[juampi]

Damnit.

Again I need to fix my time machine.

Do you have an extra seat?

[NATE!]

Because OPEC has cut production in the name of increased profits, refineries have been shut down by oil executives in the name of increased profits and oil investors/speculators have bought oil futures driving up the price in the name of increased profits.
And we are paying for their increased profits.

And that's about the closest we'll get to a correct answer as to why.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

Because we always need something to cry about, and this seemed like a good idea.

[Jerome Gibbons]

It's a complicated system involving pulleys and levers.

[Kingsumo]

There is an oil crisis because you touch yourself. Stop it!

[Servo106]

There is an oil crisis because you touch yourself. Stop it!

Oh jesus. Sorry y'all.

[lonesomefool]

1.Our dollar is in the toilet, seriously, it's not in good shape.
2.China and India are growing nations that are demanding more oil
3.Speculators are driving the price up on the stock market since commodities are making a mint.
4.There is a lot of paperwork, fee's and loop holes to jump through for new refineries to be built.
5.We do not drill off the coasts or in ANWAR.
6.The oil fields are extremely vulnerable to terroist attacks.
7.Many "experts" believe we have already reached or are about to reach peak oil and the companies, investors and speculators want to make as much money as they can now.
8.Oil execs are greedy fucks.

[Brian Defferding]

Various reasons:

-Limited supply, not enough decrease in American demand.

-No ANWR drilling (although, this will only subside the supply problem for roughly 10 years)

-Oil exports from some countries are virtually based on the whims of their respective government, like Venezuela.

-Regulations for cleaner "boutique" gases raise the wholesale an additional 10-20 cents.

-State/Fed taxes

-Inflation (weak dollar, not backed)

It's a combination of all of these. The oil price increase is being worked on in various ways, it's a slow but sure process. Hybrids and smaller non-gas guzzling cars have become the leading sales models for almost all car companies selling in America, new hybrid models are being researched, Chevy has dumped the Hummer and is making the electric Volt. If the price of gas gets bad enough (and some will say it is) eventually people will get sick of paying out the ass for their gas powered cars and will find ways to adjust.

[mike black]

Because OPEC has cut production in the name of increased profits, refineries have been shut down by oil executives in the name of increased profits and oil investors/speculators have bought oil futures driving up the price in the name of increased profits.
And we are paying for their increased profits.

Give this man tenure! TEEEEENUUUUUUUREEE!!!!

[bachman]

So, instead of paying $20 every two weeks, you pay $40 every two weeks.
Wah.

Show me your check register and budget, I'll show ya what you can cut out, ya spoiled nancies.

[bartleby]

So, instead of paying $20 every two weeks, you pay $40 every two weeks.
Wah.

And instead of paying $6 for a hamburger, you're paying $8. And instead of $3.50 for a gallon for milk, it's $5. A box of cereal, instead of $3, is $4. And your monthly power bill, instead of being $80, is $100. And so on, and so on.

[lonesomefool]

So, instead of paying $20 every two weeks, you pay $40 every two weeks.
Wah.

Show me your check register and budget, I'll show ya what you can cut out, ya spoiled nancies.

I think it's the combination of things. It's not as simple as saying, well, too bad Gas prices have gone up, guess you wont be able to afford that trade paperback or DVD this week.

It's the fact that not only are you paying so much as the pump, you are also paying for it at the grocery store so that cuts into your budget as well.

Factor in job cuts, the credit crunch, the fear propaganda on the news, college tuition continues to sky rocket and the fact that wages have been stagnant or in decline for a number of poor and middle class people and I understand the fears.

[silverboy]

So, instead of paying $20 every two weeks, you pay $40 every two weeks.
Wah.

Show me your check register and budget, I'll show ya what you can cut out, ya spoiled nancies.

$10 a week? Have you ever owned a vehicle?

[mike black]

And instead of paying $6 for a hamburger, you're paying $8. And instead of $3.50 for a gallon for milk, it's $5. A box of cereal, instead of $3, is $4. And your monthly power bill, instead of being $80, is $100. And so on, and so on.

Cut it all out. Everything. Then you'll have plenty of money for gas!

[Boris the Blade]

So, instead of paying $20 every two weeks, you pay $40 every two weeks.
Wah.

Show me your check register and budget, I'll show ya what you can cut out, ya spoiled nancies.
Dude, the only way you're spending that much on gas is if you drive three miles to work each day and do nothin' else.

[Benel Germosen]

Brown people.

[Servo106]

There actually is no oil crisis. It's a conspiriacy purpogated by the liberal media. At least that is what my dad says.

[bartleby]

Because D.C. has ran out of ideas?

[Gunter]

Dude, the only way you're spending that much on gas is if you drive three miles to work each day and do nothin' else.

That's pretty much me.

[RebootedCorpse]

So, instead of paying $20 every two weeks, you pay $40 every two weeks.
Wah.

Show me your check register and budget, I'll show ya what you can cut out, ya spoiled nancies.

Why the fuck should I cut my budget so fucking oil companies can make ungodly profits? FUCK THAT.

[bradical]

there's not a crisis.

prices are high because we let them be.

[Jason California]

Oil gnomes. they are a distant relative of the sock gnome that steals your socks out of the dryer so that you end up with uneven matches. these one take the oil before it gets to the spigot. The media does not want this to get out though.

[Freeway]

The United States consumes more oil than it produces. It has to import the rest. The imports come largely from OPEC countries. OPEC has capped production to maximize the life of its reservoirs. Demand exceeding supply bids up prices.

Also, China is competing with the US for much of the same oil as it increases its industrial capacity, bidding up prices.

Continuing strife in the Middle East, threatening the continuation of today's OPEC supply has also caused prices to go up.

[Gene Reginato]

It is one of those rare occasions where I'm glad I'm Brazilian. Most of our cars run on gas OR ethanol already, and we just found out more oil reservoirs that will keep us well supplied for decades.

[Jason California]

It is one of those rare occasions where I'm glad I'm Brazilian. Most of our cars run on gas OR ethanol already, and we just found out more oil reservoirs that will keep us well supplied for decades.


You also have the balle funk and hot women dancers. Don't discount that sir.

[En Sabah Poo]

I'm sure at least a few people mentioned ANWAR in this thread. If so, those people need to get a clue.

[The Princess]

There actually is no oil crisis. It's a conspiriacy purpogated by the liberal media. At least that is what my dad says.

And here I thought the Pres had only twin daughters. Smack the bastard upside the head for me, will ya?

[Justin.Strange]

So, instead of paying $20 every two weeks, you pay $40 every two weeks.
Wah.

Whoa. Whoah! What are you driving man? A Geo Metro?


There actually is no oil crisis. It's a conspiriacy purpogated by the liberal media. At least that is what my dad says.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lsG2vomUL._SS500_.jpg

[WillieLee]

Has someone mentioned that it's because you touch yourself?

[Makkari1]

Because OPEC has cut production in the name of increased profits, refineries have been shut down by oil executives in the name of increased profits and oil investors/speculators have bought oil futures driving up the price in the name of increased profits.
And we are paying for their increased profits.

That's about it IMO.

[WillieLee]

That's about it IMO.

Your opinion is wrong. Sorry!

[lonesomefool]

I'm sure at least a few people mentioned ANWAR in this thread. If so, those people need to get a clue.

ANWAR is quite minor, the actual oil we would pull out of there might cause, at the most a one or two cent drop at the pump. I am not against drilling off the coasts though.

[RebootedCorpse]

Your opinion is wrong. Sorry!

If males touching themselves was the cause of oil increases, gas would have gone up to $22 per gallon when Fast Times at Ridgemont High premiered in 1982.

[Blandy vs Terrorism]

So, instead of paying $20 every two weeks, you pay $40 every two weeks.
Wah.

Show me your check register and budget, I'll show ya what you can cut out, ya spoiled nancies.

Actually, I'm paying about every week to a week and a half. So yeah, that's a pretty huge increase.

[Foolish Mortal]

We're not running out of oil. The problem is demand is outpacing production.

And making the problem worse is the fact that oil sheiks and oil company big wigs like it that way. More demand on a limited supply makes them more $$$.

And the third mitigating factor is the Ethanol issue. The additive has made gasoline more expensive to produce which the oil companies are passing on to the consumer. Not to mention it's causing food prices to increase due to a large bulk of corn being shifted to oil companies instead of being used in processed food products and cattle feed.

[adam_warlock_2099]

There's isn't. It's a marketing ploy.

[William Satterwhite]

And instead of paying $6 for a hamburger, you're paying $8.

What kind of fancy hamburgers are you eating?

[bartleby]

What kind of fancy hamburgers are you eating?

I don't eat fast food, especially not fast food burgers.

[A.Huerta]

I don't eat fast food, especially not fast food burgers.

I usually pay 2 bucks or less for a burger. Mom and pop shops are the best.

[Masculine Todd]

Because Infinite Crisis sucked.

[Ryan F]

I'm sure at least a few people mentioned ANWAR in this thread. If so, those people need to get a clue.

Yeah, ANWR would barely put a dent in oil prices...and not for 5 to 10 years.

It's actually:

1. Slowed production from Iraq and the perceived possibility of further disruption from Iran.

2. Increased demand from the rapidly growing economies of India and China.

3. Weak US dollar.

[William Satterwhite]

I'm sure at least a few people mentioned ANWAR in this thread. If so, those people need to get a clue.

Perhaps not ANWR by itself but I think the general idea is that we aren't maximising all of our domestic options before relying on imported oil. I honestly don't know how true it is but I've read a number of articles that state there is possibly more oil in the Rocky Mountain states than anywhere else in the world that we aren't utilizing. Again, I don't how true that is (if at all) but the ANWR issue does point to the fact that for whatever reasons (legitimate or not) political games have prevented us from drilling in certain areas so that we have to rely on imported oil.

[adam_warlock_2099]

Perhaps not ANWR by itself but I think the general idea is that we aren't maximising all of our domestic options before relying on imported oil. I honestly don't know how true it is but I've read a number of articles that state there is possibly more oil in the Rocky Mountain states than anywhere else in the world that we aren't utilizing. Again, I don't how true that is (if at all) but the ANWR issue does point to the fact that for whatever reasons (legitimate or not) political games have prevented us from drilling in certain areas so that we have to rely on imported oil.

Drilling is picking up in Colorado and Wyoming, much more than it was five years ago. It's just that there are more drilling companies sending their rigs abroad. In fact, working in this industry, I know one drilling company is sending 10 rigs to Lybia for drilling.

It's kind of hard to say that there is an oil shortage when we are drilling here and stockpilling oil from other countries.

[Amos Moses]

We're not running out of oil.

That's not entirely true. Oil is a finite resource, and we are running out each time we consume a barrel. I just hope we don't run out before we've moved on to a renewable, clean form of energy.

Like that thing that burns in they sky.

[adam_warlock_2099]

That's not entirely true. Oil is a finite resource, and we are running out each time we consume a barrel. I just hope we don't run out before we've moved on to a renewable, clean form of energy.

Like that thing that burns in they sky.

It's not that oil HAS to be used, it's just much more profitable then solar power. When US government figures a solar power tax, then we'll use the technology.

[William Satterwhite]

Why the fuck should I cut my budget so fucking oil companies can make ungodly profits? FUCK THAT.

Because that's how capitalism works. Seriously, you have control over your own budget, you have no control over the oil companies. Why should those oil companies sacrifice their profits so that you can save a buck? Are you going to turn around and buy more gas than you would otherwise need? Are you going to invest your savings in their companies? Are you going to do anything at all to make it worth it their while?

[Ryan F]

Perhaps not ANWR by itself but I think the general idea is that we aren't maximising all of our domestic options before relying on imported oil. I honestly don't know how true it is but I've read a number of articles that state there is possibly more oil in the Rocky Mountain states than anywhere else in the world that we aren't utilizing. Again, I don't how true that is (if at all) but the ANWR issue does point to the fact that for whatever reasons (legitimate or not) political games have prevented us from drilling in certain areas so that we have to rely on imported oil.

Economic issues trump environmental issues for most of the oil in the US. Most of the US's easily recoverable oil is gone, the rest is expensive to acquire - for instance, the oil in the Rockies is locked in shale, and is very expensive

Expensive-to-acquire oil is going to be drilled when prices are high, and it's not going to do a whole lot to lower the price.

[En Sabah Poo]

Because that's how capitalism works. Seriously, you have control over your own budget, you have no control over the oil companies. Why should those oil companies sacrifice their profits so that you can save a buck? Are you going to turn around and buy more gas than you would otherwise need? Are you going to invest your savings in their companies? Are you going to do anything at all to make it worth it their while?

That's why capitalism, in its pure form, is at heart a cruel and evil thing.

[Foolish Mortal]

That's not entirely true. Oil is a finite resource, and we are running out each time we consume a barrel. I just hope we don't run out before we've moved on to a renewable, clean form of energy.

Like that thing that burns in they sky.
To rephrase, we're not running out of oil anytime soon. There's plenty of oil to last several generations. There is no immediate crisis.

Plenty of time for us to create new energy solutions. And the process of that has already begun.

[William Satterwhite]

Economic issues trump environmental issues for most of the oil in the US. Most of the US's easily recoverable oil is gone, the rest is expensive to acquire - for instance, the oil in the Rockies is locked in shale, and is very expensive

Expensive-to-acquire oil is going to be drilled when prices are high, and it's not going to do a whole lot to lower the price.

Question- Could there ever be a point in the foreseable future when the cost of exploiting that oil in the Rockies could be seen as being worth the expense? For example, if we start getting that oil out of the Rockies right now I understand that it won't positively affect the price of oil today or a year from now but has their been any analysis as to whether it could positively affect gas prices 10, 20 or even 50 years from now?

[Jason California]

That's why capitalism, in its pure form, is at heart a cruel and evil thing.


A person should be able to profit from their hard work.

[Ryan F]

Question- Could there ever be a point in the foreseable future when the cost of exploiting that oil in the Rockies could be seen as being worth the expense? For example, if we start getting that oil out of the Rockies right now I understand that it won't positively affect the price of oil today or a year from now but has their been any analysis as to whether it could positively affect gas prices 10, 20 or even 50 years from now?

As I understand it, it is economically feasible now, and oil companies are prospecting the oil shale now - it takes time to build the infrastructure to "drill" though.

There are a lot of environmental concerns, and, again, the expense of production means that it's not going to be lowering the price much (unless we are in a peak oil situation and the price continues to soar).

[Ethan Van Sciver]

That's why capitalism, in its pure form, is at heart a cruel and evil thing.

Wow.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

As I understand it, it is economically feasible now, and oil companies are prospecting the oil shale now - it takes time to build the infrastructure to "drill" though.

There are a lot of environmental concerns, and, again, the expense of production means that it's not going to be lowering the price much (unless we are in a peak oil situation and the price continues to soar).

I hope we can silence the environmentally concerned soon. We must start using our own oil. This is getting silly now.

[Amos Moses]

To rephrase, we're not running out of oil anytime soon. There's plenty of oil to last several generations. There is no immediate crisis.

Plenty of time for us to create new energy solutions. And the process of that has already begun.

I can agree with this =)

[Ryan F]

I hope we can silence the environmentally concerned soon. We must start using our own oil. This is getting silly now.

Environmental issues are playing a very small role, if a role at all, in high oil prices. Hell, if anyone had listened to environmentalists and instituted rigorous CAFE standards, we'd be in better shape all around.

Is it really worth disturbing the climate and destroying some of America's most beautiful places to drive down gas prices .10 cents for a couple of years? Our priorities are all fucked up.

[bachman]

Why the fuck should I cut my budget so fucking oil companies can make ungodly profits? FUCK THAT.

Ah yes, the American dream.

"In America, you can grow up to be anything you want. Go to school, work hard, motivate yourself, push yourself, and you can be anything you want to be. We live in a land of unlimited economic opportunity, you can be as successful as you want...
BUT NOT TOO SUCCESSFUL!!! Whoa whoa whoa, slow down, you're making too much money!!! Back it up!! Let's rethink all this capitalism stuff, it's been nothing but terrible for 230 years. EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL COMRADES!
Even for those that, bless 'em, just don't feel like workin'"

[Ethan Van Sciver]

Environmental issues are playing a very small role, if a role at all, in high oil prices. Hell, if anyone had listened to environmentalists and instituted rigorous CAFE standards, we'd be in better shape all around.

Is it really worth disturbing the climate and destroying some of America's most beautiful places to drive down gas prices .10 cents for a couple of years? Our priorities are all fucked up.

If we could cease to be dependent on the Middle East for oil, yes, at any price, it would be worth it.

[Ashwin Pande]

oil companies and governments like money and kickbacks.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

oil companies and governments like money and kickbacks.

Sure, we all do.

[Ryan F]

If we could cease to be dependent on the Middle East for oil, yes, at any price, it would be worth it.

Much easier to achieve by increased efficiency and alternative energy sources. If anyone had listened to environmentalists, we'd be a lot closer to energy independence than we are now.

[bachman]

Sure, we all do.

Who doesn't.

[Amos Moses]

Much easier to achieve by increased efficiency and alternative energy sources. If anyone had listened to environmentalists, we'd be a lot closer to energy independence than we are now.

But Enviromentalists are faggot hippie liberals! Real hard working men use oil! FUCK YEAH!

[Ethan Van Sciver]

Much easier to achieve by increased efficiency and alternative energy sources. If anyone had listened to environmentalists, we'd be a lot closer to energy independence than we are now.

I don't believe that's the case. Unless we're talking Nuclear energy, all of these alternative energy sources don't seem to have the potential to replace oil. And the research is continual.

[En Sabah Poo]

A person should be able to profit from their hard work.

Not at the expense of the welfare of other people. Capitalism is designed in a way to leave people behind, and crush them. That's not how society should exist. That's why we need a mix of capitalism and socialism. Neither can work in pure form. But they can coexist wonderfully.

And do you honestly think any of the people in the oil industry, those at the top making all the money, are doing any real hard work? Give me a break.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

But Enviromentalists are faggot hippie liberals! Real hard working men use oil! FUCK YEAH!

I disagree with this, obviously. Those hippies made a calculator that I don't need batteries to use. They are clearly this close to powering aircraft without oil.

[Ashwin Pande]

I disagree with this, obviously. Those hippies made a calculator that I don't need batteries to use. They are clearly this close to powering aircraft without oil.

:rofl:

[Ethan Van Sciver]

Not at the expense of the welfare of other people. Capitalism is designed in a way to leave people behind, and crush them. That's not how society should exist. That's why we need a mix of capitalism and socialism. Neither can work in pure form. But they can coexist wonderfully.

And do you honestly think any of the people in the oil industry, those at the top making all the money, are doing any real hard work? Give me a break.

Capitalism rewards the clever and the ballsy. I can understand your fear of it.

[Amos Moses]

Capitalism rewards the clever and the ballsy. I can understand your fear of it.

Envriomentalism requires foresight and sacrifice, I understand your revulsion to it.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

Envriomentalism requires foresight and sacrifice, I understand your revulsion to it.

And it requires scaring schoolchildren with dishonest articles about holes in the sky and a shortage of trees in their Weekly Readers! All of this, plus foresight and sacrifice! :lol:

[c. page]

And it requires scaring children with dishonest articles about holes in the sky and a shortage of trees in their Weekly Readers! All of this, plus foresight and sacrifice! :lol:

we have to scare the children somehow ethan. and boogy men under the beds just ain't cutting it.

[bachman]

Capitalism rewards the clever and the ballsy. I can understand your fear of it.

I guess it is just easier to complain about it and want a hand-out, but I don't think I'd be very satisfied with my place in society.

[En Sabah Poo]

I guess it is just easier to complain about it and want a hand-out, but I don't think I'd be very satisfied with my place in society.

Easily said from people who haven't suffered.

I hate it when people think social welfare makes people lazy and just want handouts. They base their entire opinion on one or two anecdotes they've heard and believe the exceptions make the rule.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

we have to scare the children somehow ethan. and boogy men under the beds just ain't cutting it.

My son brought home his Time Magazine KIDZ readers from school, and it was nothing but two paragraph articles of drowning polar bears and scary sounding stories about the decimated rainforests. And Obama on every cover. Except for one issue in November, with JFK. Wonderful.

[Ryan F]

I don't believe that's the case. Unless we're talking Nuclear energy, all of these alternative energy sources don't seem to have the potential to replace oil. And the research is continual.

Before you even have to replace oil, efficiency gets you a long way. In the long run, CAFE standards would've lowered energy demand and kept prices low, and would've benefited the auto companies who opposed them (and are now failing miserably for several reasons - including their inability to compete with Japanese cars on fuel efficiency). Electric cars and mass transit, which are very feasible, would have put more US energy use on the energy gird rather than gasoline - an energy grid which uses a great deal of coal (an energy resource that the US is still relatively rich in). Solar power is a bit more expensive, but gets more efficient all the time - and if we had subsidized that industry as much as we subsidize Big Oil, who knows where we'd be.

The oil resources to gain energy independence do not exist, environmentalists or no. You've let ideology prevent you from seeing the real solutions.

[En Sabah Poo]

Capitalism rewards the clever and the ballsy.

Sure it does. Whatever makes you comfortable to believe, you go right on ahead.

[Amos Moses]

I guess it is just easier to complain about it and want a hand-out, but I don't think I'd be very satisfied with my place in society.

I have no idea what this has to do with clean energy and energy independence. But you seem to bring this up a lot when it's not relevent.

[bachman]

Easily said from people who haven't suffered.

Shit, I forgot about your psychic powers, those always give you the advantage in discussions.

Because, obviously, you know everything that has encompassed the past 28 years of my life.

[En Sabah Poo]

Before you even have to replace oil, efficiency gets you a long way. In the long run, CAFE standards would've lowered energy demand and kept prices low, and would've benefited the auto companies who opposed them (and are now failing miserably for several reasons - including their inability to compete with Japanese cars on fuel efficiency). Electric cars and mass transit, which are very feasible, would have put more US energy use on the energy gird rather than gasoline - an energy grid which uses a great deal of coal (an energy resource that the US is still relatively rich in). Solar power is a bit more expensive, but gets more efficient all the time - and if we had subsidized that industry as much as we subsidize Big Oil, who knows where we'd be.

The oil resources to gain energy independence do not exist, environmentalists or no. You've let ideology prevent you from seeing the real solutions.

Once you have the efficiency to get energy demand lower (which will never happen because of politics apparently), then alternate sources of energy don't seem so impossible. We also don't have to rely on one thing. It's not like the entire world must run on solar power. We can use electric, solar, wind, water, a mix of several things.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

Easily said from people who haven't suffered.

I hate it when people think social welfare makes people lazy and just want handouts. They base their entire opinion on one or two anecdotes they've heard and believe the exceptions make the rule.

Yeah, it's reality, Bill. I've lived among it, not been influenced by one or two anecdotes, and I've "suffered". Receiving something for nothing is demoralizing. It doesn't create the desire to work, it creates a sense of defeat and resentment. And laziness.

[En Sabah Poo]

Shit, I forgot about your psychic powers, those always give you the advantage in discussions.

Because, obviously, you know everything that has encompassed the past 28 years of my life.

You're posting on an internet message board regularly, you buy and read comics. It's fair to say you aren't economically depressed to the point of the people I'm talking about. No one on this board is. Yet you lord over them like you know them and what they've been through, calling them lazy. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

Sure it does. Whatever makes you comfortable to believe, you go right on ahead.

It's made me comfortable, capitalism, so yes.

[En Sabah Poo]

Yeah, it's reality, Bill. I've lived among it, not been influenced by one or two anecdotes, and I've "suffered". Receiving something for nothing is demoralizing. It doesn't create the desire to work, it creates a sense of defeat and resentment. And laziness.

I'd rather take the word of others who have lived through it than you Ethan. I wouldn't take any of your opinions on face value about anything.

[bachman]

Sure it does. Whatever makes you comfortable to believe, you go right on ahead.

Was there a defining moment in your life that made you so bitter and angry? Or was it many small things?

Your posts, your beliefs, even the description in the Location portion of your bio, are all so... miserable and defeatist. You appear, overall, unhappy. With everything, all the time.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

Before you even have to replace oil, efficiency gets you a long way. In the long run, CAFE standards would've lowered energy demand and kept prices low, and would've benefited the auto companies who opposed them (and are now failing miserably for several reasons - including their inability to compete with Japanese cars on fuel efficiency). Electric cars and mass transit, which are very feasible, would have put more US energy use on the energy gird rather than gasoline - an energy grid which uses a great deal of coal (an energy resource that the US is still relatively rich in). Solar power is a bit more expensive, but gets more efficient all the time - and if we had subsidized that industry as much as we subsidize Big Oil, who knows where we'd be.

The oil resources to gain energy independence do not exist, environmentalists or no. You've let ideology prevent you from seeing the real solutions.

Your point is well taken, Ryan, but I'd still like to exploit the resources we have here in this country. Especially in Alaska. Why wouldn't we?

[En Sabah Poo]

Was there a defining moment in your life that made you so bitter and angry? Or was it many small things?

Your posts, your beliefs, even the description in the Location portion of your bio, are all so... miserable and defeatist. You appear, overall, unhappy. With everything, all the time.

:lol:

Whatever dude. Just because I love my country and don't want it owned by the wealthy and the crooked. Sorry if I don't walk down the street singing 'yay america' all day long. I don't just see things that are good and helpful to me and say "thats nice" and be done with it. I see things that are shitty to other people and want them to change.

[Jason California]

Not at the expense of the welfare of other people. Capitalism is designed in a way to leave people behind, and crush them. That's not how society should exist. That's why we need a mix of capitalism and socialism. Neither can work in pure form. But they can coexist wonderfully.

And do you honestly think any of the people in the oil industry, those at the top making all the money, are doing any real hard work? Give me a break.

Should a finite resource that takes considerable effort to find and process, and is also becoming more scarce be charged at a premium? I think this so.

You don't have a god given right to cheap gas.

We need smarter consumers that don't rely on a nanny state to regulate everything for them.

Your attempts at class warfare with the oil exec is funny.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

I'd rather take the word of others who have lived through it than you Ethan. I wouldn't take any of your opinions on face value about anything.

Bill, that's your problem, obviously, but things like this are more easily understood from a subjective point of view. When you've been there, and you've been on both sides of the fence, it's easy to come to your own conclusion. And people really are people, all the same kind of animal that respond to similar circumstances in similar ways. Pride is important, and it builds on itself. Handouts don't lend to pride, they defeat it. Everyone needs a safety net, but socialism just isn't it. It's not going to strengthen this country, this successful experiment we live in. Hard work, a good smart plan, and a desire to improve oneself will.

[Jason California]

Easily said from people who haven't suffered.

I hate it when people think social welfare makes people lazy and just want handouts. They base their entire opinion on one or two anecdotes they've heard and believe the exceptions make the rule.


I get my ideas on social welfare from growing up in that environment.

[En Sabah Poo]

Should a finite resource that takes considerable effort to find and process, and is also becoming more scarce be charged at a premium? I think this so.

You don't have a god given right to cheap gas.

We need smarter consumers that don't rely on a nanny state to regulate everything for them.

Your attempts at class warfare with the oil exec is funny.

I'm not saying any of that. I'm saying that politics and capitalism have put our balls in the grinder at the mercy of the oil industry. It's not changing because we don't have the power to change it. We're all stuck in the grid and until that is fixed (which expensive gas is helping) what can we do?

[En Sabah Poo]

Bill, that's your problem, obviously, but things like this are more easily understood from a subjective point of view. When you've been there, and you've been on both sides of the fence, it's easy to come to your own conclusion. And people really are people, all the same kind of animal that respond to similar circumstances in similar ways. Pride is important, and it builds on itself. Handouts don't lend to pride, they defeat it. Everyone needs a safety net, but socialism just isn't it. It's not going to strengthen this country, this successful experiment we live in.

So define an appropriate safety net. I'm all ears.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

:lol:

Whatever dude. Just because I love my country and don't want it owned by the wealthy and the crooked. Sorry if I don't walk down the street singing 'yay america' all day long. I don't just see things that are good and helpful to me and say "thats nice" and be done with it. I see things that are shitty to other people and want them to change.

You see "wealthy" and "crooked" as walking hand in hand. Do you think all wealthy or comfortable people are evil?

[Jason California]

I'm not saying any of that. I'm saying that politics and capitalism have put our balls in the grinder at the mercy of the oil industry. It's not changing because we don't have the power to change it. We're all stuck in the grid and until that is fixed (which expensive gas is helping) what can we do?

I will agree with you on politics, but not capitalism.

I would get rid of all oil subsidies right now. Lower the tax burden on the people that pay them allowing it to go back into other aspects of the economy.

I would let people see how much petroleum based products really cost and then have other forms of energy have a better chance in the market based on this.

[Jason California]

You're posting on an internet message board regularly, you buy and read comics. It's fair to say you aren't economically depressed to the point of the people I'm talking about. No one on this board is. Yet you lord over them like you know them and what they've been through, calling them lazy. You should be ashamed of yourself.


I was like this when I was growing up. I did not take the route of many of my contemporaries in that environment and pulled myself up with my boot straps.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

So define an appropriate safety net. I'm all ears.

That's a big job, not really fit for a comic book artist to outline, and especially not on the spur of a moment on an internet message board. I'll leave it to conservative politicians, who I believe have the best interest of people at heart.

[copypastepuke]

the oil crisis is my fault. sorry guys

[Jason California]

the oil crisis is my fault. sorry guys

Thanks for manning up. There has been a lot of finger pointing here.

[En Sabah Poo]

That's a big job, not really fit for a comic book artist to outline, and especially not on the spur of a moment on an internet message board. I'll leave it to conservative politicians, who I believe have the best interest of people at heart.

I think I can help, from the perspective of a conservative politician: "Get a job." That sound about right?

[Ethan Van Sciver]

I think I can help, from the perspective of a conservative politician: "Get a job." That sound about right?

Good advice for every able man. Or should I be embarrassed and say, "N-no, of course not, Bill! Not a job! Heaven forbid!" :)

[copypastepuke]

Thanks for manning up. There has been a lot of finger pointing here.yeah, i decided it was time that i just owned up to it. i couldnt live a lie anymore

[copypastepuke]

oh shit i just realized i left my hummer with the engine ON and running for the past four hours along with my air conditioner and i left all the windows open SHIIIIIiiiiiiiiiit

[Doc Randy]

That's a big job, not really fit for a comic book artist to outline, and especially not on the spur of a moment on an internet message board. I'll leave it to conservative politicians, who I believe have the best interest of people at heart.

Good one, Ethan! :lol:

[Jason California]

oh shit i just realized i left my hummer with the engine ON and running for the past four hours along with my air conditioner and i left all the windows open SHIIIIIiiiiiiiiiit

Don't worry about the a/c. I saw a news report that says it is not a big gas burden.

[Jason California]

Good one, Ethan! :lol:


Hey!

Your avatar is giving a bad impression to kids about smoking!

[copypastepuke]

Don't worry about the a/c. I saw a news report that says it is not a big gas burden.
in that case then im going to solve global warming real easy, ill just have everyone in the world turn on their ac's and open the windows. solving the worlds problems is so easy!

[En Sabah Poo]

Good advice for every able man. Or should I be embarrassed and say, "N-no, of course not, Bill! Not a job! Heaven forbid!" :)

That's what I thought. Thanks for validating my opinion with your narrow and short sighted viewpoint.

[ERNIE_E]

And instead of paying $6 for a hamburger, you're paying $8. And instead of $3.50 for a gallon for milk, it's $5. A box of cereal, instead of $3, is $4. And your monthly power bill, instead of being $80, is $100. And so on, and so on.


ANd if only our salaries would make the jumps as well to keep up...:-?

[RebootedCorpse]

Ah yes, the American dream.

"In America, you can grow up to be anything you want. Go to school, work hard, motivate yourself, push yourself, and you can be anything you want to be. We live in a land of unlimited economic opportunity, you can be as successful as you want...
BUT NOT TOO SUCCESSFUL!!! Whoa whoa whoa, slow down, you're making too much money!!! Back it up!! Let's rethink all this capitalism stuff, it's been nothing but terrible for 230 years. EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL COMRADES!
Even for those that, bless 'em, just don't feel like workin'"

People who make others suffer for their own profits are called criminals.

[RebootedCorpse]

we have to scare the children somehow ethan. and boogy men under the beds just ain't cutting it.

That's why GW gave us terrorists just like another un-American liar and fear-monger gave us the threat of Commie spies.

[En Sabah Poo]

People who make others suffer for their own profits are called criminals.

Its weird. You can talk about social programs to help the unlucky and deprived, you can talk about just regulating the super corporations and super rich to keep them from abusing the system and society for the sake of profits, but as soon as you mention any of that stuff, right wingers immediately think to themselves, "Oh noes! He's after my wallet!" Apparently the distinction is too hard for them to grasp.

[tim nixon]

I'll leave it to conservative politicians, who I believe have the best interest of people at heart.

like gay people and those that need/want abortions!!!

[RebootedCorpse]

Its weird. You can talk about social programs to help the unlucky and deprived, you can talk about just regulating the super corporations and super rich to keep them from abusing the system and society for the sake of profits, but as soon as you mention any of that stuff, right wingers immediately think to themselves, "Oh noes! He's after my wallet!" Apparently the distinction is too hard for them to grasp.

They all imagine themselves as being among these people, when in fact, these people wouldn't spit on them if their head was on fire.

[En Sabah Poo]

My feeling on the subject has always been, hard work deserves reward. Otherwise I wouldn't be putting my ass through law school.

But people don't realize what a pure capitalist state would be like. They hear the word socialism and they immediately think of being robbed and having to stand in line for fish. When in actuality, social workings in the labor industry have brought us things like labor unions, fare wage and negotiations, child labor laws, federal safety regulations, anti-discrimination laws, many things people take for granted that a pure capitalist system would not give you.

And what do you do when you have a minimum wage job, work 50+ hours a week, have two or three kids, can't afford insurance, and then something happens to you? Rely on the charity of the private sector? Yeah right.

Social welfare programs are absolutely necessary for society to function properly and more importantly, ethically. But just the words themselves have become like a curse word of sorts, because of attack politics by those in the business to exploit people.

[Glixy]

My feeling on the subject has always been, hard work deserves reward. Otherwise I wouldn't be putting my ass through law school.

But people don't realize what a pure capitalist state would be like. They hear the word socialism and they immediately think of being robbed and having to stand in line for fish. When in actuality, social workings in the labor industry have brought us things like labor unions, fare wage and negotiations, child labor laws, federal safety regulations, anti-discrimination laws, many things people take for granted that a pure capitalist system would not give you.

And what do you do when you have a minimum wage job, work 50+ hours a week, have two or three kids, can't afford insurance, and then something happens to you? Rely on the charity of the private sector? Yeah right.

Social welfare programs are absolutely necessary for society to function properly and more importantly, ethically. But just the words themselves have become like a curse word of sorts, because of attack politics by those in the business to exploit people.

Preach on brother.

*Glixy seal of approval*

[William Satterwhite]

My feeling on the subject has always been, hard work deserves reward. Otherwise I wouldn't be putting my ass through law school.

But people don't realize what a pure capitalist state would be like. They hear the word socialism and they immediately think of being robbed and having to stand in line for fish. When in actuality, social workings in the labor industry have brought us things like labor unions, fare wage and negotiations, child labor laws, federal safety regulations, anti-discrimination laws, many things people take for granted that a pure capitalist system would not give you.

And what do you do when you have a minimum wage job, work 50+ hours a week, have two or three kids, can't afford insurance, and then something happens to you? Rely on the charity of the private sector? Yeah right.

Social welfare programs are absolutely necessary for society to function properly and more importantly, ethically. But just the words themselves have become like a curse word of sorts, because of attack politics by those in the business to exploit people.

To be fair, I think a lot of it stems from the fact that many liberals brand conservatives as heartless and mean when we try to argue that there just might be better ways of dealing with those problems. For example, in the case you cite, as a conservative I might point out that step one in addressing the problem is figuring out how a person like that got themselves in that situation to begin with so we can correct any personal issues (lack of education, lack of drive/direction/focus, etc...) they might have that led to where they are. 9 times out of 10, I would be branded as heartless, elitist or even rascist when I'm really just trying to get at the root of the problem before taking a shortsighted course of action that 20 years from now, really doesn't prove to have solved anything.

I agree with you that social welfare programs are needed on some level but I also believe there needs to be a strict limit to the size and scope of those programs and that those programs must be held accountable to achieve clear and defined goals. If you want to create jobs or teach people workplace skills, I'm all for it. I just don't want to hand out blank checks without any accountability or proof that we're actually fixing anything.

[En Sabah Poo]

To be fair, I think a lot of it stems from the fact that many liberals brand conservatives as heartless and mean when we try to argue that there just might be better ways of dealing with those problems. For example, in the case you cite, as a conservative I might point out that step one in addressing the problem is figuring out how a person like that got themselves in that situation to begin with so we can correct any personal issues (lack of education, lack of drive/direction/focus, etc...) they might have that led to where they are. 9 times out of 10, I would be branded as heartless, elitist or even rascist when I'm really just trying to get at the root of the problem before taking a shortsighted course of action that 20 years from now, really doesn't prove to have solved anything.

I agree with you that social welfare programs are needed on some level but I also believe there needs to be a strict limit to the size and scope of those programs and that those programs must be held accountable to achieve clear and defined goals. If you want to create jobs or teach people workplace skills, I'm all for it. I just don't want to hand out blank checks without any accountability or proof that we're actually fixing anything.

It is interesting that you say we should first address the personal issues of those down on their luck. As if they all are either uneducated or lazy (as you so subtley put it). But I would say the majority of times, people find themselves in that situation because of losing their job, growing up in poverty and being unable to escape (again, not everyone can get out of the gutter by will alone - people like to think they can, but it also takes some luck). It doesn't come down to people being dumb or lazy, its outside circumstances that cause the most problems.

[William Satterwhite]

It is interesting that you say we should first address the personal issues of those down on their luck. As if they all are either uneducated or lazy (as you so subtley put it).

Or it could just be because the personal issues are the ones that the individual person can actually control, so logic would dictate that those be addressed first. Would you not agree that no matter what help you try to give them, its highly unlikely that a person who is uneducated and/or lazy will ever be able to rise above their current station until they address what they themselves have control over? And would you also not agree that a person who is uneducated and/or lazy needs our help more than someone who is just down on their luck?


But I would say the majority of times, people find themselves in that situation because of losing their job, growing up in poverty and being unable to escape (again, not everyone can get out of the gutter by will alone - people like to think they can, but it also takes some luck). It doesn't come down to people being dumb or lazy, its outside circumstances that cause the most problems.

That's bullshit. I can't say it any other way, I think anyone who has the motivation and access to the means can lift themselves up out of any situation, no matter how bleak it may appear. It might not be easy but it certainly isn't impossible. Like I said earlier, there's nothing wrong with giving people a helping hand if they are trying to help themselves- but they have to want to help themselves.