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View Full Version : LITG: John Byrne redoes a Bendis MA panel



NickT
04-14-2008, 12:56 PM
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=15978



Bout halfway down.

Fake Pat
04-14-2008, 12:57 PM
Thank god we all have Byrne to show us the correct way to do things.

JABSEN
04-14-2008, 12:59 PM
That's an odd thing to do.

Fake Pat
04-14-2008, 01:00 PM
That's an odd thing to do.

Nothing is odd once Byrne gets involved. :)

Jim T.
04-14-2008, 01:01 PM
It may be blasphemy 'round these parts, but I liked Byrne's better. Bendis' Doom (in that scene, at least) was a lot less regal than I usually "hear" him. I think the only thing Byrne missed is that Doom is batshit panicked in the scene and that may have been what Bendis was trying to convey by having his dialogue go "off character".

Fake Pat
04-14-2008, 01:02 PM
It may be blasphemy 'round these parts, but I liked Byrne's better. Bendis' Doom (in that scene, at least) was a lot less regal than I usually "hear" him.

Yeah, I didn't really like how Doom was written in MA either.

But this is just a bitter old man engaging in some public axe-grinding.

Brother Power the Gong
04-14-2008, 01:03 PM
It may be blasphemy 'round these parts, but I liked Byrne's better. Bendis' Doom (in that scene, at least) was a lot less regal than I usually "hear" him.

Seconded. I always have thought that Byrne writes and draws one of the best Doom's ever. Still a douchey thing for him to do

Dr. Hackenbush
04-14-2008, 01:03 PM
You mean Byrne has an opinion about something!? And he wants to share that opinion!?:eek:

This must be unprecedented.:p

TheKraken
04-14-2008, 01:03 PM
Can't comment on the dialogue 'cuz I haven't read the issue yet, but that Byrne drawing kinda bums me out. He could draw a really amazing Doom once upon a time... that picture manages to make his face look fat, metal or not, and the head is gigantic compared to the body...

Generic Poster
04-14-2008, 01:04 PM
It may be blasphemy 'round these parts, but I liked Byrne's better. Bendis' Doom (in that scene, at least) was a lot less regal than I usually "hear" him. I think the only thing Byrne missed is that Doom is batshit panicked in the scene and that may have been what Bendis was trying to convey by having his dialogue go "off character".

I agree.

DAVE
04-14-2008, 01:04 PM
If Ms.Marvel was a Hispanic character Byrne would have no problem with Doom calling her a whore (cuz she's blonde).

JABSEN
04-14-2008, 01:04 PM
You mean Byrne has an opinion about something!? And he wants to share that opinion!?:eek:

This must be unprecedented.:pRedrawing a panel kinda is. Maybe he does it all the time and I missed it.

JABSEN
04-14-2008, 01:05 PM
Yeah, I didn't really like how Doom was written in MA either.

But this is just a bitter old man engaging in some public axe-grinding.Agreed on both counts.

Icaruss
04-14-2008, 01:06 PM
Bendis' was funnier though.

schizorabbit
04-14-2008, 01:06 PM
Yeah, I didn't really like how Doom was written in MA either.

But this is just a bitter old man engaging in some public axe-grinding.

I know Byrne has the reputation of being some cranky, extreme, opinionated, and bitter ol' man, but he came across as very gracious in his looooooooooong interview (two podcasts worth) on AroundComics. I was actually shocked at how funny and nice and informative he came across, as was the hosts of the show, who were expecting a beheading or something. Highly recommended listening.

Joe Kalicki
04-14-2008, 01:07 PM
Can't comment on the dialogue 'cuz I haven't read the issue yet, but that Byrne drawing kinda bums me out. He could draw a really amazing Doom once upon a time... that picture manages to make his face look fat, metal or not, and the head is gigantic compared to the body...

It's probably just something he dashed off really quick as an example.

Most of his commissions are really awesome.

(some suck)

TheKraken
04-14-2008, 01:08 PM
It doesn't specifically say he redrew it. It actually implies he didn't. He just added a word balloon to something he had drawn, most likely as a commission.

How in the hell have I ended up defending John Byrne?

nick maynard
04-14-2008, 01:09 PM
take notes bendis!!


;)

c. page
04-14-2008, 01:09 PM
It may be blasphemy 'round these parts, but I liked Byrne's better. Bendis' Doom (in that scene, at least) was a lot less regal than I usually "hear" him. I think the only thing Byrne missed is that Doom is batshit panicked in the scene and that may have been what Bendis was trying to convey by having his dialogue go "off character".

that was my thought, just from what i've seen of the issue. having not read the full thing, however, i'm willing to give bendis the benefit of the doubt.

nick maynard
04-14-2008, 01:10 PM
If Ms.Marvel was a Hispanic character Byrne would have no problem with Doom calling her a whore (cuz she's blonde).

hey, quesada is blond too!

GelfXIII
04-14-2008, 01:10 PM
He's reaching out! That's cool.

Jerome Gibbons
04-14-2008, 01:11 PM
If Ms.Marvel was a Hispanic character Byrne would have no problem with Doom calling her a whore (cuz she's blonde).

Heh.

Jim T.
04-14-2008, 01:11 PM
He's reaching out! That's cool.

Heh - the "grandeur" comment would seem to contradict that...

Ben
04-14-2008, 01:11 PM
That Doom dialog was really bad, and I'm usually not one to complain about characters acting out-of-character.

Joe Kalicki
04-14-2008, 01:12 PM
take notes bendis!!


;)

Hey, say what you want about Byrne, but if Bendis had a significant 20-year career and a less significant but steady 10-year career after it, that would be pretty good.

BCD
04-14-2008, 01:13 PM
In related news, this guy doesn't like txt messaging:

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/60minutes/20061020/7f5e6cc75ec0e9b9cae9ad26968340bc.jpg

Keith P.
04-14-2008, 01:14 PM
I honestly thought the reason Doom's dialogue was slightly off was to either convey that he is a skrull, or to make us think it was a possibility.

Ben
04-14-2008, 01:15 PM
I honestly thought the reason Doom's dialogue was slightly off was to either convey that he is a skrull, or to make us think it was a possibility.That's what I was suspecting, too.

copypastepuke
04-14-2008, 01:16 PM
nice wwe comics, BRO!

Dusty
04-14-2008, 01:16 PM
John Byrne is a great. He wrote the best Dr. Doom ever. I'd like to see him and Bendis work together.

NickT
04-14-2008, 01:16 PM
I honestly thought the reason Doom's dialogue was slightly off was to either convey that he is a skrull, or to make us think it was a possibility.
I just assumed that since his castle got blown up he was a teensy bit worked up. He's not the calmest chap in the world :)

Benel Germosen
04-14-2008, 01:17 PM
That's what I was suspecting, too.

Out of context, it doesn't seem like it. I haven't read the issue, but if that's what was suggested or implied, then I see why Doom would speak out-of-character.

Generic Poster
04-14-2008, 01:17 PM
I honestly thought the reason Doom's dialogue was slightly off was to either convey that he is a skrull, or to make us think it was a possibility.

Doom, overcome and replaced by Skrulls? Bah! Impossible! That fool Richards perhaps, but not Doom!

greg donovan
04-14-2008, 01:18 PM
perhaps the doom we saw in MA isnt really Doom?

Jim T.
04-14-2008, 01:18 PM
Man, first Giffen takes a shot, and now Byrne. It's tough being the lead guy on big crossover - probably even tougher not being able to respond without giving away your plot. Fuck 'em...

schizorabbit
04-14-2008, 01:19 PM
John Byrne is a great. He wrote the best Dr. Doom ever. I'd like to see him and Bendis work together.

Didn't Bendis say on Wordballoon that Byrne hadn't return any of his calls/messages/emails?

Dusty
04-14-2008, 01:20 PM
Didn't Bendis say on Wordballoon that Byrne hadn't return any of his calls/messages/emails?

I thought it was Bendis and Brevoort in one of Brian's Wizard interviews that said that.

Byrne denies ever being contacted.

Wubbs
04-14-2008, 01:22 PM
Heh. "Cow-mouth".

Snicker...

schizorabbit
04-14-2008, 01:24 PM
I thought it was Bendis and Brevoort in one of Brian's Wizard interviews that said that.

Byrne denies ever being contacted.

I've never read/heard the Wizard interviews. I remember Siuntres and Bendis talking about Byrne a couple of times on Wordballoon.

Gunter
04-14-2008, 01:25 PM
I had seen this panel earlier, and while I think that Byrne's dialogue has more of a Doom feel to it I think there were better ways to get that point across.

I was a little disappointed in Bendis' Doom, I've always been a big fan of Bendis' dialogue and this just doesn't seem right. I'm hoping there's an explanation for it.

I'm expecting Bendis to come into this thread and say, "All will be revealed."

TonyFleecs
04-14-2008, 01:25 PM
hey, quesada is blond too!And hispanic!

That's kind of awesome. I'd be confused and delighted right now if Byrne did that to one of my panels. (edit: not that he ever would... I'm not sure he cares about autobio books that only sell 1500 copies.)

Caley Tibbittz
04-14-2008, 01:27 PM
Well, at least Doom's dialogue wasn't in the form of a thought balloon...

Gunter
04-14-2008, 01:27 PM
Well, at least Doom's dialogue wasn't in the form of a thought balloon...

or bubble...

PeterSparker
04-14-2008, 01:29 PM
Doom speaks not as either of these foolish foriegners would have the world believe.



Doom has mad lyrical skillz yo! So you better check yourself, ya heard!


word

Hawkdevil
04-14-2008, 01:35 PM
I had seen this panel earlier, and while I think that Byrne's dialogue has more of a Doom feel to it I think there were better ways to get that point across.

I was a little disappointed in Bendis' Doom, I've always been a big fan of Bendis' dialogue and this just doesn't seem right. I'm hoping there's an explanation for it.

I'm expecting Bendis to come into this thread and say, "All will be revealed."

wait. does this mean you just saw this panel without reading the issue?

Gunter
04-14-2008, 01:36 PM
wait. does this mean you just saw this panel without reading the issue?



Yes. Which means it might be explained in the issue, I just don't know yet.

The Hodag
04-14-2008, 01:37 PM
Byrne knows Doom, no doubt about it.

I tend to doubt the notion that Doom sounded "off" in New Avengers because he might be a Skrull, simply because Bendis always lends his own voice to characters. Sometimes it's great, sometimes not so much, but there wouldn't be all these tongue-in-cheek jabs - even from ardent fans - if there wasn't some truth to it. I suspect Doom's just not a character who fit his sensibilities.

Besides, I thought "Doombots" was the only explanation we'd ever need for ol' Vic being badly characterized. :lol:

daveoneill
04-14-2008, 01:39 PM
I know Byrne has the reputation of being some cranky, extreme, opinionated, and bitter ol' man, but he came across as very gracious in his looooooooooong interview (two podcasts worth) on AroundComics. I was actually shocked at how funny and nice and informative he came across, as was the hosts of the show, who were expecting a beheading or something. Highly recommended listening.


I was expecting the around comics guys to, you know, call Byrne on some of his crap over the years - such as calling Jessica Alba a whore, instead of doing an extended fanwank interview

Ben
04-14-2008, 01:40 PM
Besides, I thought "Doombots" was the only explanation we'd ever need for ol' Vic being badly characterized. :lol:Do Doombots have faces now?

And I guess Doom might be showing up in FF. Maybe that'll give us an idea what's going on here.

daveoneill
04-14-2008, 01:40 PM
I thought it was Bendis and Brevoort in one of Brian's Wizard interviews that said that.

Byrne denies ever being contacted.

Byrne's lying.

Hawkdevil
04-14-2008, 01:44 PM
Yes. Which means it might be explained in the issue, I just don't know yet.

okay. just the way you said you were "disappointed." it seems like it'd be better to form that kind of opinion AFTER you read the issue.

I believe the same as some others on this thread were saying: that Doom was, in this scene, panicked and angry and had lost all calm and composure.

I thought Byrne's dialogue was boring and cheesy and belonging to mainstream comics past, not present... There was no emotion in it at all, and that panel would've been way out of place in the scene.

Jim T.
04-14-2008, 01:46 PM
We've probably already drifted close to an "other board drama" lock - we may want to watch the creator bashing, though... (looks at a certain poster from Dublin... :wink:)

daveoneill
04-14-2008, 01:48 PM
Then lock the thread - I don't know why space is being wasted on a Marvel creator's board, talking about a DC creator who spends his free time (and he has lots of it) - BASHING MARVEL.

Yannick_B
04-14-2008, 01:50 PM
Then lock the thread - I don't know why space is being wasted on a Marvel creator's board, talking about a DC creator who spends his free time (and he has lots of it) - BASHING MARVEL.

Byrne hasnt been a DC creator for a while.

NickT
04-14-2008, 01:51 PM
We've probably already drifted close to an "other board drama" lock - we may want to watch the creator bashing, though... (looks at a certain poster from Dublin... :wink:)
I'd just like to point out that if it has drifted to OBD, that wasn't the intention :)

daveoneill
04-14-2008, 01:52 PM
Byrne hasnt been a DC creator for a while.

The most recent issue of JLA Classified disagrees with you.

Big Poot!
04-14-2008, 01:54 PM
I read "Spider-Man Chapter One #1" by John Byrne for the first time last night. After 10 pages I was like ":shock: Are you serious? Wow, I didn't think it comics could be this bad." I couln't finish it. Seriously, Stan Lee's Spier-Man was so much better, as is JMS's and Bendis's.

And Bendis's Doom is so much better and more interesting. PWND!!!

Gunter
04-14-2008, 01:57 PM
okay. just the way you said you were "disappointed." it seems like it'd be better to form that kind of opinion AFTER you read the issue.

I believe the same as some others on this thread were saying: that Doom was, in this scene, panicked and angry and had lost all calm and composure.

I thought Byrne's dialogue was boring and cheesy and belonging to mainstream comics past, not present... There was no emotion in it at all, and that panel would've been way out of place in the scene.


I was disappointed in the panel I read. It's my opinion that Doom would never speak like that no matter how shaken. But I'll hold back a final opinion until I read the issue.

Yannick_B
04-14-2008, 01:58 PM
The most recent issue of JLA Classified disagrees with you.

Inventory story, if I'm not mistaken. He was in the dog house with DC for a while because he was supposed to do a couple of the Superman Returns movie tie-ins then didnt because he didnt approve of the movie, DC had to turn around and have other people rush-draw them instead.

Maybe that has passed, but I'm pretty sure that the JLA story's inventory.

Joe Kalicki
04-14-2008, 02:00 PM
Inventory story, if I'm not mistaken. He was in the dog house with DC for a while because he was supposed to do a couple of the Superman Returns movie tie-ins then didnt because he didnt approve of the movie, DC had to turn around and have other people rush-draw them instead.

Maybe that has passed, but I'm pretty sure that the JLA story's inventory.

It is.

Though Roger Stern should be writing DC comics all the time.

Jet
04-14-2008, 02:04 PM
Byrne is just bent that Bendis killed Alpha Flight......ok, maybe not.

Yannick_B
04-14-2008, 02:09 PM
It is.

Though Roger Stern should be writing DC comics all the time.

I havent read the story but man, his Superman stuff in the 90s was awesome, especially his Luthor.

Shawn_Kehoe
04-14-2008, 02:27 PM
I had seen this panel earlier, and while I think that Byrne's dialogue has more of a Doom feel to it I think there were better ways to get that point across.

I was a little disappointed in Bendis' Doom, I've always been a big fan of Bendis' dialogue and this just doesn't seem right. I'm hoping there's an explanation for it.

I'm expecting Bendis to come into this thread and say, "All will be revealed."

Here's my point-of-view on Dr Doom circa Mighty Avengers:

Doom is a planner. He probably spends months working out every detail of his encounters with the Fantastic Four before they occur. He instigates most of his battles, and he probably is planning his nasty monologues at the same time he plots his death traps. He just strikes me as that sort of guy.

The Fantastic Four or Iron Man don't go attacking Latveria unprovoked, that's not who they are. OK, Luke Cage did once, but let's forget that. :)

Now, let's consider Mighty Avengers. Doom is NOT expecting the attack. The Venom Bomb was the work of his minions, and was triggered accidentally, without his knowledge. He's probably six weeks into his latest scheme to kill Richards - he won't start a "kill the Avengers plan" until spring break.

All of a sudden Iron Man shows up with a group of Avengers that are more powerful than the Fantastic Four. What's worse, the most powerful Avenger is unbalanced and Doom has never heard of him. On top of all this, the poor guy's having girl problems in the 13th century.

Imagine if the most meticulous, organised coworker you know was suddenly thrust into a presentation with 5 minutes notice and no prep work.

Doom really SHOULDN'T sound like Doom in this scenario.

Ben Weldon
04-14-2008, 02:31 PM
Byrne "Crazy Old Fucker", is much more interesting to me than Byrne "Icon of the industry when standards where much lower".

OH SNAP!!!

TheKraken
04-14-2008, 02:46 PM
I'd just like to point out that if it has drifted to OBD, that wasn't the intention :)

As a result, I would like this thread to drift to ODB instead.

http://radio.weblogs.com/0135731/images/2004/11/14/odb.jpg

Generic Poster
04-14-2008, 03:15 PM
I was expecting the around comics guys to, you know, call Byrne on some of his crap over the years - such as calling Jessica Alba a whore, instead of doing an extended fanwank interview

Maybe they wanted to talk about comics.

The Hodag
04-14-2008, 03:18 PM
Here's my point-of-view on Dr Doom circa Mighty Avengers:

Doom is a planner. He probably spends months working out every detail of his encounters with the Fantastic Four before they occur. He instigates most of his battles, and he probably is planning his nasty monologues at the same time he plots his death traps. He just strikes me as that sort of guy.

The Fantastic Four or Iron Man don't go attacking Latveria unprovoked, that's not who they are. OK, Luke Cage did once, but let's forget that. :)

Now, let's consider Mighty Avengers. Doom is NOT expecting the attack. The Venom Bomb was the work of his minions, and was triggered accidentally, without his knowledge. He's probably six weeks into his latest scheme to kill Richards - he won't start a "kill the Avengers plan" until spring break.

All of a sudden Iron Man shows up with a group of Avengers that are more powerful than the Fantastic Four. What's worse, the most powerful Avenger is unbalanced and Doom has never heard of him. On top of all this, the poor guy's having girl problems in the 13th century.

Imagine if the most meticulous, organised coworker you know was suddenly thrust into a presentation with 5 minutes notice and no prep work.

Doom really SHOULDN'T sound like Doom in this scenario.

The bolded portion is where your hypothetical derails. Doom's like Batman...braced for just about everything. He might not've known the particulars, but it's hard for me to imagine that's he's not always prepared for superheroes to come knocking at his doorstep.

TonyFleecs
04-14-2008, 03:19 PM
As a result, I would like this thread to drift to ODB instead.

http://radio.weblogs.com/0135731/images/2004/11/14/odb.jpg
I'm just tryin to find mo' girls to put mo' babies in.

Ben
04-14-2008, 03:20 PM
Maybe Ms. Marvel had packed on a few pounds and Doom actually thought she was a cow that was to be made into some leather furniture?

Lemonade Lady
04-14-2008, 03:21 PM
That's a big improvement over the original.

Doom's not one to panic easily and even if he did I can't imagine him speaking in such a manner.

PhilipClark
04-14-2008, 03:26 PM
It's all moot if Doom's a Skrull. Agreed.

DAVE
04-14-2008, 03:27 PM
That's a big improvement over the original.

Doom's not one to panic easily and even if he did I can't imagine him speaking in such a manner.

I think you mean to say that you can't imagine the Doom you grew up reading speaking in such a manner.
Times change, and creators write dialouge in different fashions. The Doom of the '60's spoke in "BAh! I'll get you all" melodramatic style. Byrne's Doom was more regal, almost Shakespearean. Was the character changed? Sorta, yeah. Today's writers have refresh the style in the same way that the last generation's did or else the work becomes stagnant. Byrne's Mr.Fantastic acted a lot differently than Stan Lee's. Times change and these icons should change with them.

Buk Was Right
04-14-2008, 03:30 PM
I think you mean to say that you can't imagine the Doom you grew up reading speaking in such a manner.
Times change, and creators write dialouge in different fashions. The Doom of the '60's spoke in "BAh! I'll get you all" melodramatic style. Byrne's Doom was more regal, almost Shakespearean. Was the character changed? Sorta, yeah. Today's writers have refresh the style in the same way that the last generation's did or else the work becomes stagnant. Byrne's Mr.Fantastic acted a lot differently than Stan Lee's. Times change and these icons should change with them.

I don't know daddy-o. I think dialog can be timeless as well as hip, jive, and keen.

Are you hep to my groove?

DAVE
04-14-2008, 03:31 PM
I don't know daddy-o. I think dialog can be timeless as well as hip, jive, and keen.

Are you hep to my groove?

For sooth my liege!

Fake Pat
04-14-2008, 03:31 PM
I think you mean to say that you can't imagine the Doom you grew up reading speaking in such a manner.
Times change, and creators write dialouge in different fashions. The Doom of the '60's spoke in "BAh! I'll get you all" melodramatic style. Byrne's Doom was more regal, almost Shakespearean. Was the character changed? Sorta, yeah. Today's writers have refresh the style in the same way that the last generation's did or else the work becomes stagnant. Byrne's Mr.Fantastic acted a lot differently than Stan Lee's. Times change and these icons should change with them.

Byrne's head would explode if he read that.

Buk Was Right
04-14-2008, 03:32 PM
For sooth my liege!

Sweet Christmas!

(alright, that one's timeless, but still...)

lovewillkill
04-14-2008, 03:47 PM
Never thought I'd type this, but I totally agree with Byrne. Unless Doom's a Skrull, too, he would never talk the way Bendis wrote him.

lwk

Lemonade Lady
04-14-2008, 03:48 PM
I think you mean to say that you can't imagine the Doom you grew up reading speaking in such a manner.
Times change, and creators write dialouge in different fashions. The Doom of the '60's spoke in "BAh! I'll get you all" melodramatic style. Byrne's Doom was more regal, almost Shakespearean. Was the character changed? Sorta, yeah. Today's writers have refresh the style in the same way that the last generation's did or else the work becomes stagnant. Byrne's Mr.Fantastic acted a lot differently than Stan Lee's. Times change and these icons should change with them.

Speech patterns change with the times but there needs to be some effort to remain true to the characters as well. I don't think Bendis' version is how a 21st century Doctor Doom would speak. It just seems plain out of character. Might as well have Aunt May saying "'Sup my nigga?".

NickT
04-14-2008, 03:51 PM
I don't know daddy-o. I think dialog can be timeless as well as hip, jive, and keen.

Are you hep to my groove?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v325/ReaperFett/ASM_43_MJ_speak.jpg

RebootedCorpse
04-14-2008, 03:54 PM
I didn't find Bendis' Doom dialogue to be off at all. Sounds like the type of insults he throws around when he's furious. Like when he was fighting Ben hand-to-hand.

John M. Coker (Johnny C.)
04-14-2008, 04:02 PM
That's a big improvement over the original.

Doom's not one to panic easily and even if he did I can't imagine him speaking in such a manner.

Have to disagree. The Byrne dialogue in that panel is flat and cliche. I almost want to call it dated, but I don't think that would even be a fitting word, because even if that panel were written in 86 it'd still be uninteresting.

Jim T.
04-14-2008, 04:05 PM
As a result, I would like this thread to drift to ODB instead.

http://radio.weblogs.com/0135731/images/2004/11/14/odb.jpg

:rofl:

Doug O
04-14-2008, 04:12 PM
I spend some time over on Byrne Robotics and saw this thread. I can't speak for how out-of-context the panel is, but it was really pretty innocent discussion of the dialogue.

Byrne will roll his eyes at a few things but he's a good guy who is very talented and loves comics.

King of Mars
04-14-2008, 05:09 PM
At times, Bendis suffers from Tarantino Disease. He's become so well known for his distinct, colorful dialogue that he feels compelled to force it into the mouthes of all his characters, even when it doesn't really fit. I'm not saying that Byrne's dated, bland dialogue is better...but it certainly seems more appropriate for Dr. Doom.

The Zevad
04-14-2008, 05:27 PM
You know I kind of have to agree with Byrne here. Bendis' Doom just felt totally off to me.

Nick Spencer
04-14-2008, 05:32 PM
The Bendis panel is so much more entertaining, and communicates how rattled Doom is.

And it's just funny as hell.

bartleby
04-14-2008, 05:37 PM
Can you imagine the reaction from Byrne if anybody redid something he had written or drawn?

Fake Pat
04-14-2008, 05:38 PM
Can you imagine the reaction from Byrne if anybody redid something he had written or drawn?

Exactly.

JoshM
04-14-2008, 05:39 PM
Is it possible that Doom is a Skrull and that Bendis purposely wrote that dialogue to be over the top?

Joe Kalicki
04-14-2008, 05:39 PM
Can you imagine the reaction from Byrne if anybody redid something he had written or drawn?

Well, Bendis is redoing his whole Skrull Invasion story from Lost Generation and Hulk Chapter One Annual.

nick maynard
04-14-2008, 05:40 PM
Is it possible that Doom is a Skrull and that Bendis purposely wrote that dialogue to be over the top?

yes!

Doug O
04-14-2008, 05:43 PM
The Bendis panel is so much more entertaining, and communicates how rattled Doom is.

And it's just funny as hell.

Fair enough. Again I don't know the context that much.

One of my favorite funny Doom lines is in Byrne FF and he takes over somebody's body and the guy ends up next to Aunt May during a fight. Something like "cease your mindless prattle, foolish woman!"

Josh V
04-14-2008, 05:43 PM
See and I took it that Ms. Marvel is actually a skrull who Reed had turned into a cow and Doom was calling her out on it. Whoops.

The Zevad
04-14-2008, 05:46 PM
See I dunno. Doom would be prepared for shit like this. He's fought the Avengers. And I think he would have a plan for such an avenue. Much like Black Panther has a back up plan to deal with Galactus.

Masculine Todd
04-14-2008, 06:35 PM
Bendis has a very distinct style of dialogue, and all his characters, no matter how individualistic and fully-realized, speak in a pseudo-snarky pattern. To me, this still came across as a regal Doom, but a Doom who's involved with a lover, who's desperate not to see Latveria and his empire crumble due to an unforeseeable mistake. Even Doom can lose his shit, and that's what it came across as to me.

BronxRonin
04-14-2008, 06:45 PM
It may be blasphemy 'round these parts, but I liked Byrne's better. Bendis' Doom (in that scene, at least) was a lot less regal than I usually "hear" him. I think the only thing Byrne missed is that Doom is batshit panicked in the scene and that may have been what Bendis was trying to convey by having his dialogue go "off character".

i concur.:scared:

lonesomefool
04-14-2008, 07:17 PM
Here I thought Byrne didnt have the time to do this stuff, what with the HUGE numbers Doom Patrol and Demon are doing, surely that keeps him busy......

....oh, wait.

Buk Was Right
04-14-2008, 07:27 PM
Can you imagine the reaction from Byrne if anybody redid something he had written or drawn?

Ding!

Dusty
04-14-2008, 09:01 PM
Can you imagine the reaction from Byrne if anybody redid something he had written or drawn?

Nelson (his Action Comics inker) was taking it upon himself to redraw some things. Byrne was understandly not happy, but I never heard him raise hell about it or anything.

Gail would know better than I.

TomBelandTSSTG
04-14-2008, 10:23 PM
Anyone who wrote the dialogue, let alone the plot to this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e4/Spideychapterone-1.jpg/250px-Spideychapterone-1.jpg
needs to shut the hell up and draw. I mean... really.

lonesomefool
04-14-2008, 10:27 PM
Nelson (his Action Comics inker) was taking it upon himself to redraw some things. Byrne was understandly not happy, but I never heard him raise hell about it or anything.

Gail would know better than I.

The sad thing about that, is I actually thought his "work" with Nelson was the best his artwork had looked in years. I understand why he wasnt happy, but his run on that book with Gail is about the only thing he has done since I have started reading comics again that I really enjoyed looking at.

THAT Sean!
04-14-2008, 10:28 PM
Anyone who wrote the dialogue, let alone the plot to this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e4/Spideychapterone-1.jpg/250px-Spideychapterone-1.jpg
needs to shut the hell up and draw. I mean... really.

Those were the first words out of my mouth, my parents say. How could you be so cruel, Tom Beland??

TomBelandTSSTG
04-14-2008, 10:36 PM
I just don't know why John had to do this so publicly. He could've done the panel, done the dialogue and send it to Brian with a note saying what issues he had with the dialogue. Doing it the way he did was just so ridiculous.

My first reaction was this one. He so never got what Spidey was about and Brian could've easily ripped John's work on this book just as publicly. But he hasn't done so, which shows more class. And I've been a HUGE Byrne fan for most of his career. But to throw stones at someone else's writing, with THIS on their resume is a pretty daring thing to do.

Kefky
04-14-2008, 10:38 PM
B.'s probably gonna cry if he ever sees this thread. :)

The Hodag
04-14-2008, 11:16 PM
I just don't know why John had to do this so publicly. He could've done the panel, done the dialogue and send it to Brian with a note saying what issues he had with the dialogue. Doing it the way he did was just so ridiculous.

I can't seem to find the thread where Byrne originally did it (Rich's link just goes to the thread where the Byrne board discovered it had "gone public"), but my sense is that Byrne didn't do this as some shot across the bow. I think someone on Byrne's board just posted the Bendis panel, which as Rich himself noted has already been the subject of plenty of internet joking, and Byrne posted a recent Doom pin-up he'd done with added dialogue showing how he'd have conveyed the same meaning. It seems more like a lark to me, though perhaps destined to blow up because everyone watches Byrne's board like a hawk for the latest outrage. I know, at least, that the Doom image was a commission from a few months ago, which makes the whole thing seem far less premeditated.


My first reaction was this one. He so never got what Spidey was about and Brian could've easily ripped John's work on this book just as publicly. But he hasn't done so, which shows more class. And I've been a HUGE Byrne fan for most of his career. But to throw stones at someone else's writing, with THIS on their resume is a pretty daring thing to do.

You know Bendis spoofed Byrne in an Oni press special way back when, right? I think he portrayed him as Ego the Living Planet. I also seem to remember a jab in Fortune and Glory. And here and there elsewhere. Now...I wouldn't be shocked if Byrne fired the first shot, and he's hardly ever the "good guy", but neither of these dudes has exactly shown a lot of class where the other is concerned.

Mattman
04-14-2008, 11:30 PM
There was a time when I loathed John Byrne. I placed him in the same leaky lifeboat as Todd McFarlane. But as the years pass and I look back on the thousands of hours of storytelling entertainment his run on Fantastic Four gave me when I was growing up, I find it harder and harder to harbor such feelings for the man. Nowadays, I put in him in the same sturdy-with-a-working-engine lifeboat as Steve Ditko. And thus, I can look at the Dr. Doom picture and (a) appreciate it for the work of art it is, and (b) give a little chuckle. After all, he kind of has a point (no offense intended there B-Man).

The Hodag
04-14-2008, 11:33 PM
There was a time when I loathed John Byrne. I placed him in the same leaky lifeboat as Todd McFarlane. But as the years pass and I look back on the thousands of hours of storytelling entertainment his run on Fantastic Four gave me when I was growing up, I find it harder and harder to harbor such feelings for the man. Nowadays, I put in him in the same sturdy-with-a-working-engine lifeboat as Steve Ditko. And thus, I can look at the Dr. Doom picture and (a) appreciate it for the work of art it is, and (b) give a little chuckle. After all, he kind of has a point (no offense intended there B-Man).

He's certainly not the first amazing creator to turn into a cranky ol' bastard in his later years. C.C. Beck, the creator of Captain Marvel and one of the true greats of his era, even had a column in the Comics Journal called "The Crusty Curmudgeon."

I half think the Journal should revive that column with Byrne at the helm...

danlomb
04-15-2008, 02:56 AM
Redrawing a panel kinda is. Maybe he does it all the time and I missed it.

pretty sure there was a time when he drew the ideal Cyclops because his drones were bickering about "how 'slim' should "Slim" Summers be?" after someone drew him quite beefy...

cPol
04-15-2008, 04:23 AM
The sad thing is that Byrne won't be man enough to admit his own douchebaggery when it's revealed that "Doom" is a Skrull, hence the non-Doomy dialogue.

DAVE
04-15-2008, 04:40 AM
Speech patterns change with the times but there needs to be some effort to remain true to the characters as well. I don't think Bendis' version is how a 21st century Doctor Doom would speak. It just seems plain out of character. Might as well have Aunt May saying "'Sup my nigga?".

Wow, talk about a non sequitor arguement. :roll:

Jim T.
04-15-2008, 04:42 AM
B.'s probably gonna cry if he ever sees this thread. :)

:) Yeah, I'm surprised it survived the night, actually...

BronxRonin
04-15-2008, 05:19 AM
Anyone who wrote the dialogue, let alone the plot to this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e4/Spideychapterone-1.jpg/250px-Spideychapterone-1.jpg
needs to shut the hell up and draw. I mean... really.

:cry: sad to see you go there...:surrend:

greg woronchak
04-15-2008, 05:26 AM
The Bendis panel in question was brought up by another board member. It seemed to me that John was simply having fun with his own 'version', and this is yet another example of Rich Johnson presenting things out of context.

I find it very weird how folk are gunning for Byrne. Considering the wealth of amazing material he's produced over the decades, can't one allow the man an opinion, even if it might not be popular?

BronxRonin
04-15-2008, 05:27 AM
:) Yeah, I'm surprised it survived the night, actually...

sad huh?:)

Jim T.
04-15-2008, 05:27 AM
The Bendis panel in question was brought up by another board member. It seemed to me that John was simply having fun with his own 'version', and this is yet another example of Rich Johnson presenting things out of context.

I find it very weird how folk are gunning for Byrne. Considering the wealth of amazing material he's produced over the decades, can't one allow the man an opinion, even if it' might not be popular?

:) Welcome. There's a history of Byrne taking shots at Bendis, which makes some folks a bit defensive around here (and why Rich delights in stirring this kind of stuff up).

Doug O
04-15-2008, 05:28 AM
I can't seem to find the thread where Byrne originally did it (Rich's link just goes to the thread where the Byrne board discovered it had "gone public"), but my sense is that Byrne didn't do this as some shot across the bow.

Here's the thread, Hodag. It's near the end of this page:
www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24904&PN=2&TPN=2
I agree with you, I didn't think it was that big a deal. Somebody else was trying to express Bendis' idea without the "cow-mouth" and Byrne just plugged in a line on a picture he had drawn.

schizorabbit
04-15-2008, 05:28 AM
The Bendis panel in question was brought up by another board member. It seemed to me that John was simply having fun with his own 'version', and this is yet another example of Rich Johnson presenting things out of context.

I find it very weird how folk are gunning for Byrne. Considering the wealth of amazing material he's produced over the decades, can't one allow the man an opinion, even if it might not be popular?


I agree. Mountain...molehill. So high school: "Guess what Jessica said about you in second period???!!!!??"

greg woronchak
04-15-2008, 05:31 AM
Btw, Hi guys, this board seems like a cool place to be <g>...

Gavin
04-15-2008, 05:36 AM
Btw, Hi guys, this board seems like a cool place to be <g>...

Welcome to the board. This is indeed a cool place to be.

nihilance
04-15-2008, 05:38 AM
I agree. Mountain...molehill. So high school: "Guess what Jessica said about you in second period???!!!!??"

"Who the fuck cares...she looks like a whore now that she's dyed her hair blonde."

JABSEN
04-15-2008, 05:39 AM
"Who the fuck cares...she looks like a whore now that she's dyed her hair blonde."heh. Nice.

schizorabbit
04-15-2008, 05:40 AM
"Who the fuck cares...she looks like a whore now that she's dyed her hair blonde."

"Ohmygawd, Jessica. Tina told me that Monica said you looked like a big fat whore since you dyed your hair. Like Jessica Alba in the Fantastic Whore, I mean, Four."

nihilance
04-15-2008, 05:41 AM
Anyone who wrote the dialogue, let alone the plot to this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e4/Spideychapterone-1.jpg/250px-Spideychapterone-1.jpg
needs to shut the hell up and draw. I mean... really.

USM is just Chapter One without the editorial mandate to make it 616 retroactive continuity. The difference is more between the chances Jemas took over Mackie than anything else.

Run-BMC
04-15-2008, 05:44 AM
Ahhh, it's all about whose side you're on. On message boards, that's always how it is.

Remember when Maleev redrew Power Girl to show the board how he would have done the Michael Turner JLA cover? Same thing, really. And everyone loved that.

Mister Mets
04-15-2008, 05:45 AM
Bendis has a very distinct style of dialogue, and all his characters, no matter how individualistic and fully-realized, speak in a pseudo-snarky pattern. To me, this still came across as a regal Doom, but a Doom who's involved with a lover, who's desperate not to see Latveria and his empire crumble due to an unforeseeable mistake. Even Doom can lose his shit, and that's what it came across as to me.Yeah, I think the panel and the controversy over it is more the result of it being taken out of context than anything else.

Run-BMC
04-15-2008, 05:49 AM
I just don't know why John had to do this so publicly. He could've done the panel, done the dialogue and send it to Brian with a note saying what issues he had with the dialogue. Doing it the way he did was just so ridiculous.

My first reaction was this one. He so never got what Spidey was about and Brian could've easily ripped John's work on this book just as publicly. But he hasn't done so, which shows more class. And I've been a HUGE Byrne fan for most of his career. But to throw stones at someone else's writing, with THIS on their resume is a pretty daring thing to do.

Everyone's got things on their resume that they're not proud of. I don't think people should throw stones publicly, period really. No one comes off looking classy.

BronxRonin
04-15-2008, 05:52 AM
Everyone's got things on their resume that they're not proud of. I don't think people should throw stones publicly, period really. No one comes off looking classy.

:cool: wurd!

TheKraken
04-15-2008, 06:21 AM
USM is just Chapter One without the editorial mandate to make it 616 retroactive continuity. The difference is more between the chances Jemas took over Mackie than anything else.

Chapter One is more like the early days of Marvel Adventures Spider-Man (Or maybe it was that previous Spider-Man book... Was there a Spider-Man Adventures right before that? I forget) than USM in that it was just remaking Stan'n'Steve without any major changes. Chapter One featured kids who didn't talk like kids dressed like grunge fans. It was rather telling that Byrne went to the trouble of coming up with a continuity explanation for a coloring mistake in Amazing Fantasy #15 but didn't bother to research what kids were actually like at the time. But its biggest problem, really, was his choice of structure. I mean, it was basically just the first 13 Spidey stories re-told, there's nothing inherently wrong with the plots. But every issue started in the middle, then flashed back, then ended on a cliffhanger. Every issue after the first one would end on a cliffhanger that wasn't resolved until the 2nd half of the following issue. It was one of the worst gimmicks I've ever seen.

Jim T.
04-15-2008, 06:30 AM
Chapter One is more like the early days of Marvel Adventures Spider-Man (Or maybe it was that previous Spider-Man book... Was there a Spider-Man Adventures right before that? I forget) than USM in that it was just remaking Stan'n'Steve without any major changes. Chapter One featured kids who didn't talk like kids dressed like grunge fans. It was rather telling that Byrne went to the trouble of coming up with a continuity explanation for a coloring mistake in Amazing Fantasy #15 but didn't bother to research what kids were actually like at the time. But its biggest problem, really, was his choice of structure. I mean, it was basically just the first 13 Spidey stories re-told, there's nothing inherently wrong with the plots. But every issue started in the middle, then flashed back, then ended on a cliffhanger. Every issue after the first one would end on a cliffhanger that wasn't resolved until the 2nd half of the following issue. It was one of the worst gimmicks I've ever seen.

To be fair, though, a lot of that structure stuff could have been editorially driven, rather than the writer's choice.

TheKraken
04-15-2008, 06:35 AM
To be fair, though, a lot of that structure stuff could have been editorially driven, rather than the writer's choice.

Anything's possible, but I'm not pinning an idea that shitty on anyone not credited as the writer without evidence. :)

LittleHouse
04-15-2008, 06:48 AM
Byrne may know Doom dialog pretty brilliantly, but at least Bendis knows you put punctuation inside quotation. Except for question marks, of course. Grammar nazi, signing off.

NickT
04-15-2008, 06:49 AM
Ahhh, it's all about whose side you're on. On message boards, that's always how it is.

Remember when Maleev redrew Power Girl to show the board how he would have done the Michael Turner JLA cover? Same thing, really. And everyone loved that.
True.


Chapter One is more like the early days of Marvel Adventures Spider-Man (Or maybe it was that previous Spider-Man book... Was there a Spider-Man Adventures right before that? I forget) than USM in that it was just remaking Stan'n'Steve without any major changes.
Marvel Age IIRC, although it's still basically Marvel Adventures.

DrMachine
04-15-2008, 07:03 AM
Byrne may know Doom dialog pretty brilliantly, but at least Bendis knows you put punctuation inside quotation. Except for question marks, of course. Grammar nazi, signing off.
even if it's only one word in quotes?

LittleHouse
04-15-2008, 07:19 AM
even if it's only one word in quotes?

Especially. ;)

DrMachine
04-15-2008, 07:24 AM
Especially. ;)

what if the word is in the middle of a sentence?

Marc Lombardi
04-15-2008, 07:40 AM
what if the word is in the middle of a sentence?

YES: She called him "douchebag," but she doesn't really know him.

NO: I went to the "store" with Timmy.

Generic Poster
04-15-2008, 07:43 AM
Can you imagine the reaction from Byrne if anybody redid something he had written or drawn?

Or if someone took a character he created and turned her to a crack whore?

TomBelandTSSTG
04-15-2008, 07:43 AM
My problem with all of this is the fact that this story's, about aliens impersonating Marvel characters, is just out of the gates and we're all to assume Bendis can't write Doom? Why can't John just hang out until the story is over before saying "BENDIS CAN'T WRITE DOOM??" We don't even know if that WAS Doom. lol. It's just insane.

DrMachine
04-15-2008, 07:45 AM
YES: She called him "douchebag," but she doesn't really know him.

NO: I went to the "store" with Timmy.

I was specifically referring to periods. Although, looking back on the discussion, I did not make that clear.

NickT
04-15-2008, 07:55 AM
My problem with all of this is the fact that this story's, about aliens impersonating Marvel characters, is just out of the gates and we're all to assume Bendis can't write Doom? Why can't John just hang out until the story is over before saying "BENDIS CAN'T WRITE DOOM??" We don't even know if that WAS Doom. lol. It's just insane.
So what, every time someone thinks someone is writing a character badly they should shut up because it may be a Skrull?

Ben
04-15-2008, 07:56 AM
USM is just Chapter One without the editorial mandate to make it 616 retroactive continuity. The difference is more between the chances Jemas took over Mackie than anything else.You're totally wrong. Have you even read Chapter One?

LittleHouse
04-15-2008, 07:57 AM
I was specifically referring to periods. Although, looking back on the discussion, I did not make that clear.

We're talking about this image (http://www.comicbookresources.com/images/litg/2008/0414/2008-04-11_125527_Doom.jpg), right?

DrMachine
04-15-2008, 07:58 AM
We're talking about this image (http://www.comicbookresources.com/images/litg/2008/0414/2008-04-11_125527_Doom.jpg), right?

I think you were talking about that image. I was talking about grammar rules.

Marc Lombardi
04-15-2008, 07:59 AM
I was specifically referring to periods. Although, looking back on the discussion, I did not make that clear.
And why would you put a period in the middle of a sentence? :mistrust: Your question was if a quoted word was in the middle of the sentence would you still put the punctuation inside the quotes. But if you only were asking about periods, well a period doesn't belong anywhere near the middle of a sentence.

TomBelandTSSTG
04-15-2008, 08:01 AM
So what, every time someone thinks someone is writing a character badly they should shut up because it may be a Skrull?

If it's a story involving Skrulls... and the character in question MAY be a Skrull... then yes. Of course.

DaveCummings
04-15-2008, 08:03 AM
I don't know about everyone else, but I am tired of the "let's rail on Byrne for saying something remotely controversial" mentality. Just as I'm tired of the "let's rip on Liefeld" mentality. That shit just gets old after awhile.

DrMachine
04-15-2008, 08:07 AM
And why would you put a period in the middle of a sentence? :mistrust: Your question was if a quoted word was in the middle of the sentence would you still put the punctuation inside the quotes. But if you only were asking about periods, well a period doesn't belong anywhere near the middle of a sentence.

THAT is EXACTLY why I was asking....again, I was asking about PERIODS. I was NOT referring to punctuation in general.

You seem to have completed my "Terrible Twelve" Bendis Board posters.

Foolish Mortal
04-15-2008, 08:07 AM
My problem with all of this is the fact that this story's, about aliens impersonating Marvel characters, is just out of the gates and we're all to assume Bendis can't write Doom? Why can't John just hang out until the story is over before saying "BENDIS CAN'T WRITE DOOM??" We don't even know if that WAS Doom. lol. It's just insane.
The problem with that is even Doom's robot duplicates speak exactly the same way as him. But a Skrull impersonator cannot?

I suppose it's possible he's a Skrull, but I have my doubts.

LittleHouse
04-15-2008, 08:07 AM
And why would you put a period in the middle of a sentence? :mistrust: Your question was if a quoted word was in the middle of the sentence would you still put the punctuation inside the quotes. But if you only were asking about periods, well a period doesn't belong anywhere near the middle of a sentence.

I wasn't even going to respond, but thank you for helping me not go insane. The language was elusive, which was why I assumed he meant a period in the middle of an entire quotation.


THAT is EXACTLY why I was asking....again, I was asking about PERIODS. I was NOT referring to punctuation in general.

You seem to have completed my "Terrible Twelve" Bendis Board posters.

Dude, I was referring to his use of quotations in the panel this thread's about. You made a random comment about periods, which led to a bizarrely heated defense about periods and punctuation in general.

Marc Lombardi
04-15-2008, 08:08 AM
You seem to have completed my "Terrible Twelve" Bendis Board posters.
:thumb: Is there a collectible slipcase that we can all fit into?

NickT
04-15-2008, 08:09 AM
If it's a story involving Skrulls... and the character in question MAY be a Skrull... then yes. Of course.
But it's not a story involving Skrulls, it's a story involving Doom which references SI. Considering that Doom is also appearing in F4 (Which isn't tying in to SI) the odds are it isn't a Skrull.


If you think a character is written badly, you can say so. You don't need to wait a year just in case it turns out that the character was a Skrull or mind controlled or whatever. If it turns out not to be the case you can always retract your statement, although you don't need to since nobody saying it could be a Skrull would :)

Also, it's not as if this is the first time someone has said Bendis wrote a character badly. While I disagree, some believe he writes most characters with the same voice. Why would they hold back now when they never have before?

Andrew j
04-15-2008, 08:22 AM
i like both versions

TomBelandTSSTG
04-15-2008, 08:25 AM
But it's not a story involving Skrulls, it's a story involving Doom which references SI. Considering that Doom is also appearing in F4 (Which isn't tying in to SI) the odds are it isn't a Skrull.

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd just how many books is Wolverine appearing in at the moment... including the one where he's a billion light-years away in space..?

I'm not saying you can't say a guy can't write a character. What I'm saying is if the character in question is involved with a group who are fighting Skrulls... you should at LEAST let the story play out more than it has.

Or you can look like an idiot. Not my worry.

TomBelandTSSTG
04-15-2008, 08:34 AM
That was a cheap shot. I don't mean to call you an idiot. Sorry about that.

NickT
04-15-2008, 08:44 AM
Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd just how many books is Wolverine appearing in at the moment... including the one where he's a billion light-years away in space..?
True, but that works less when you get quotes like this:

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=151599


NRAMA: From the #558 solicitation, it's indicated that someone has liberated Doom. Any hints?

MM: Yes, we tie in directly with New Avengers and Secret Invasion. Not
with the Skrulls, but we're both using Doom and what Brian (Bendis) does with Doom feeds directly into issue #558 and then what we do feeds into the end of Secret Invasion. Once Secret Invasion is done, we have Doom back and it's the biggest shock of them all. I love the idea of a cohesive Marvel Universe. Not where we're finishing each other's stories (which is horrible), but where we loan out characters and having everything threaded together
All signs point to no-Skrull :)

TheKraken
04-15-2008, 09:15 AM
True, but that works less when you get quotes like this:

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=151599

All signs point to no-Skrull :)

Because Millar is always entirely truthful in interviews, right? :)

Ben
04-15-2008, 09:19 AM
True, but that works less when you get quotes like this:

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=151599

All signs point to no-Skrull :)Not necessarily.

Boris the Blade
04-15-2008, 09:32 AM
Everyone's got things on their resume that they're not proud of. I don't think people should throw stones publicly, period really. No one comes off looking classy.
*Snapsnapsnapsnapsnap*

Testify.

Dusty
04-15-2008, 01:00 PM
Yes, the mob mentality within the internet comic circles when it comes to people like Byrne or Liefeld seem to be a much bigger problem than anything Byrne or Liefeld actually say or do.

It is a shame that some kind of peace between Marvel and Byrne can't be reached. He'd fit in perfectly in a roll like Romita Jr. and Alan Davis currently have at Marvel. He'd be an amazing choice for an Avengers series, Hulk, She-Hulk, Iron-Man, Wolverine, X-Men, Alpha Flight, Fantastic Four, Black Panther, Iron-Fist, a Cap mini series, or any number of Marvel universe mini series projects.

Lemonade Lady
04-15-2008, 01:16 PM
Anyone who wrote the dialogue, let alone the plot to this:

The plot was 95% Stan Lee and Steve Ditko. :-?

Generic Poster
04-15-2008, 01:17 PM
The plot was 95% Stan Lee and Steve Ditko. :-?

I didn't like how Byrne made Osborn and the Sandman related based on the fact that they have similar hair.

KingMob
04-15-2008, 01:25 PM
cow mouth?

:lol:

TomBelandTSSTG
04-15-2008, 01:29 PM
The plot was 95% Stan Lee and Steve Ditko. :-?

I was referring to the updated reboot that Byrne wrote, if the cover didn't prove my point. I found the dialogue horrible. And there was all that product placement. I dropped it from the beginning.

TheKraken
04-15-2008, 01:32 PM
I didn't like how Byrne made Osborn and the Sandman related based on the fact that they have similar hair.

Yeah... that was pretty hilarious. His hard-on to come up with an in-continuity reason the spider on the back of Spidey's suit was blue once is the thing that stuck with me. Kinda insane.

His Electro redesign was better than anything anyone else has tried to make him look less ridiculous, tho', I have to give him that.

Lemonade Lady
04-15-2008, 01:36 PM
I was referring to the updated reboot that Byrne wrote, if the cover didn't prove my point.

Yeah... but wasn't most of the plot taken from the original issues? Knock the execution all you want, but the majority of those original plots are solid.

Lemonade Lady
04-15-2008, 01:37 PM
I didn't like how Byrne made Osborn and the Sandman related based on the fact that they have similar hair.

That would be in the 5%. That was pretty lame. Didn't like all the Osborn connections.

TomBelandTSSTG
04-15-2008, 01:38 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e4/Spideychapterone-1.jpg/250px-Spideychapterone-1.jpg
And... do people really think I'm talking about Lee/Ditko when I post the cover to CHAPTER ONE?? Really?? I'm pretty surprised at that.

Lemonade Lady
04-15-2008, 01:39 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e4/Spideychapterone-1.jpg/250px-Spideychapterone-1.jpg
And... do people really think I'm talking about Lee/Ditko when I post the cover to CHAPTER ONE?? Really?? I'm pretty surprised at that.

Where did the plots of Spider-Man: Chapter One come from?

Generic Poster
04-15-2008, 01:40 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e4/Spideychapterone-1.jpg/250px-Spideychapterone-1.jpg
And... do people really think I'm talking about Lee/Ditko when I post the cover to CHAPTER ONE?? Really?? I'm pretty surprised at that.

Everyone understands that. Everyone's point is that 90% of the PLOT (if not the SCRIPT) of Chapter One was from Lee/Ditko.

TheKraken
04-15-2008, 01:40 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e4/Spideychapterone-1.jpg/250px-Spideychapterone-1.jpg
And... do people really think I'm talking about Lee/Ditko when I post the cover to CHAPTER ONE?? Really?? I'm pretty surprised at that.

She's saying that Chapter One was basically a remake of the first 13 Stan'n'Steve stories. Which it was. It just happened to have terrible dialogue, some new ideas thrown in and an awful structural gimmick.

TomBelandTSSTG
04-15-2008, 01:44 PM
Where did the plots of Spider-Man: Chapter One come from?

lol.. he didn't xerox the pages of Amazing Fantasy and paste them onto Chapter One... he wrote a revisionist plotline for the book. I didn't know I had to hold your hand to the get to my point.

I'd say that Ultimate Spider-Man is plotted by Bendis too. You have to have SOME plot in mind when you write comics.

TomBelandTSSTG
04-15-2008, 01:48 PM
http://batman.ugo.com/images/galleries/batman_yearone_comics/batman_yearone_1.jpg
So is this a Frank Miller plotline or is it Bob Kane's? I'm just curious how you're seeing this.

Joe Kalicki
04-15-2008, 01:48 PM
Wait till you see Byrne's remixing of Isla De Los Muertes.

NickT
04-15-2008, 01:50 PM
Chapter One is more like the early days of Marvel Adventures Spider-Man (Or maybe it was that previous Spider-Man book... Was there a Spider-Man Adventures right before that? I forget) than USM in that it was just remaking Stan'n'Steve without any major changes.
Remembering back as an aside, the Spider-Man had Mark Brooks art for a time and the Fantastic Four one was IIRC written by McKeever. At some point they became Marvel Adventures from Age, and it became original stuff.

TomBelandTSSTG
04-15-2008, 01:52 PM
Wait till you see Byrne's remixing of Isla De Los Muertes.
lol... I'm sure I got the Chupacabra's voice all wrong.

Generic Poster
04-15-2008, 01:52 PM
http://batman.ugo.com/images/galleries/batman_yearone_comics/batman_yearone_1.jpg
So is this a Frank Miller plotline or is it Bob Kane's? I'm just curious how you're seeing this.

Come on, man. There was never a Bob Kane story like Year One. Chapter One followed the first 10 issues of Spider-Man almost exactly, including introducing the same villains, etc. As everyone has said, Byrne added details and dialogue, but followed Lee's plotline almost exactly.

A more accurate comparison would be the recent Matt Wagner updates of the Hugo Strange and vampire stories from the first few appearance of Batman in Detective.

NickT
04-15-2008, 01:55 PM
http://batman.ugo.com/images/galleries/batman_yearone_comics/batman_yearone_1.jpg
So is this a Frank Miller plotline or is it Bob Kane's? I'm just curious how you're seeing this.
Some would argue it wouldn't be Bob Kane's plot anyway, since he took it from The Shadow ;)

DAVE
04-15-2008, 01:56 PM
lol... I'm sure I got the Chupacabra's voice all wrong.

My 15 and Under Roller Hockey Team was called The Chupacabras.

bartleby
04-15-2008, 01:56 PM
Yes, the mob mentality within the internet comic circles when it comes to people like Byrne or Liefeld seem to be a much bigger problem than anything Byrne or Liefeld actually say or do.

Maybe, but it's not as if this is something that just happened out of the blue. Both Byrne and Liefeld have done or said things that's created an aura of hostility around themselves. I'm not saying either deserves all of the shit they take from their critics, but let's not pretend like they haven't brought some of this upon themselves.

TheKraken
04-15-2008, 02:00 PM
lol.. he didn't xerox the pages of Amazing Fantasy and paste them onto Chapter One... he wrote a revisionist plotline for the book. I didn't know I had to hold your hand to the get to my point.

I'd say that Ultimate Spider-Man is plotted by Bendis too. You have to have SOME plot in mind when you write comics.

He adhered to the originals so strictly that he made the blue back spider decision I mentioned to "explain" a coloring error in the original comics. The dialogue was his, the pacing was his, the outdated 1991 fashions were his, the plots were almost exactly the same as the original comics and even published in the same order. The FF and The Chameleon are his first encounters with other super people, he meets Doc Ock and The Lizard and everybody in basically the same issue numbers as before, etc. He even somehow decided his remake shouldn't omit the hilarious moment (I think from ASM#5?) where Dr. Doom can talk to Spidey on his Spider Sense like it's a radio. The plots were pretty much the same. That was the point of the book. He wasn't re-imagining Spider-Man for a new era, like USM is supposed to, he was remaking classic Spidey stories for a new audience (that didn't actually exist at the time, really). He did make some changes, but most of them were cosmetic.

Misguided completist youth that I was back then, I bought and still own the whole run. You said you dropped it, so I may be speaking from a point of greater experience. Trust me, yo. :)

Dusty
04-15-2008, 02:04 PM
Chapter One wasn't his best work, but it's okay. Better than a lot of stuff that I've read with Spider-Man in it.

BronxRonin
04-15-2008, 02:27 PM
I don't know about everyone else, but I am tired of the "let's rail on Byrne for saying something remotely controversial" mentality. Just as I'm tired of the "let's rip on Liefeld" mentality. That shit just gets old after awhile.

Well said.:cool:

The Hodag
04-15-2008, 02:32 PM
Well said.:cool:

That's where I'm coming from too, and I say that as someone who John Byrne once called an "asshole."

The thing is, this is such a nothing issue. His board members posted a panel of Bendis dialogue they thought was weak. He redialogued it the way he thought Doom would've sounded. He didn't tell Rich to publicize it, didn't come over to this board to crow about it - it really seems like something he did on a lark.

Given that Bendis has taken shots at Byrne in actual printed material, who really gives a crap if Byrne does this little thing? Hell, it could even be considered constructive criticism. It wasn't just "that sucks!", it was, "well, here's how I would have done it."

The Zevad
04-15-2008, 06:30 PM
The Bendis panel in question was brought up by another board member. It seemed to me that John was simply having fun with his own 'version', and this is yet another example of Rich Johnson presenting things out of context.

I find it very weird how folk are gunning for Byrne. Considering the wealth of amazing material he's produced over the decades, can't one allow the man an opinion, even if it might not be popular?

Well considering I half expected Bendis' Doom to spit out and say oh my God gag me with a spoon. I kinda wasn't feeling Bendis' Doom also I mean come on. After all the shit Doom went through being trapped in hell and having Reed take over his country he'd have back ups for this. So eh. I just think a lot of Bendis fans are just a bit to obsessive. I like a creator and if they take pot shots at each other. Fine. Good. Keeps their egos in check.

The Zevad
04-15-2008, 06:35 PM
That's where I'm coming from too, and I say that as someone who John Byrne once called an "asshole."

The thing is, this is such a nothing issue. His board members posted a panel of Bendis dialogue they thought was weak. He redialogued it the way he thought Doom would've sounded. He didn't tell Rich to publicize it, didn't come over to this board to crow about it - it really seems like something he did on a lark.

Given that Bendis has taken shots at Byrne in actual printed material, who really gives a crap if Byrne does this little thing? Hell, it could even be considered constructive criticism. It wasn't just "that sucks!", it was, "well, here's how I would have done it."


Well fucking said.


The problem with that is even Doom's robot duplicates speak exactly the same way as him. But a Skrull impersonator cannot?

I suppose it's possible he's a Skrull, but I have my doubts.

If they are sleeper skrulls aren't they supposed to not even know they are not skrulls? One could supposed that some are aware they are skrulls and are not sleeper skruls.


So what, every time someone thinks someone is writing a character badly they should shut up because it may be a Skrull?

See this is how the skrulls could be used in a bad way. To explain away lazy writing.

Still Doom Panicking? Being unprepared? The guy was VIVISECTED by the Beyonder. Did he Panic? Eh. I don't know.