Gail Simone vs Dave Sim

[Ben Weldon]

Dave Sim goes onto a message board for women in comics to pimp his new book. Dave Sim the raging misogynist and homophobe, that is. And who should show up to ask him questions but the fabulous Gail Simone.

http://www.sequentialtart.com/community/Forum9/HTML/000244.shtml

[copypastepuke]

thanks for the link!
:popcorn:

[Magnum V.I.]

This quite possibly will not be here tomorrow due to the No other board drama clause.

[Ben Weldon]

This quite possibly will not be here tomorrow due to the No other board drama clause.

I already ran it by a mod.

[Magnum V.I.]

I already ran it by a mod.

Which one?

[copypastepuke]

i cleared it. i said it was cool. i am the secret mod. shhhhhh

[NeverWanderer]

So far, I'm seeing intelligent discussion, not drama. I don't see how this is any different from pointing out a particularly interesting editorial on another comic site.

Thanks for the link!

[Whip]

*gets bag of Bugles ready*

[Whip]

Wonder if this'll appear on fandom wank.

[Pia Guerra]

Considering there's a plan for him to stop by this board as a part of his month long pimpage, I'd say it's noteworthy.

[Magnum V.I.]

Now that I've actually read most of it, it's really fascinating.


Didn't mean to cause a stink earlier but sometimes people post stuff to other people on other boards and it gets taken down under that rule.

[King of Mars]

I think both Gail and Sim handled that exchange pretty well.

[Blandy vs Terrorism]

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y142/djblandy/IMG_1825.jpg

[Pia Guerra]

I think both Gail and Sim handled that exchange pretty well.

If you mean well as in Dave didn't really answer any of the questions posed, then sure.

[Haborym]

At least Dave and I agree on one thing. If a homophobic, misogynist writes a book, I have the right to boycott it.

[Colby]

Sim actually came off much better there than he has in other mediums.

His arguments, however, seemed weaker than usual. Then again, I suppose I'm pre-ordained to disagree with them...

[tdaniel]

In the entire thread Simone is brilliant, fair, tough. polite and a role model. I hope my daughter grows up whip smart like her and just as brave.

Dave Sim, man. Sad. Illogical, evasive, - just nonsensicle to a startling degree.

[nick maynard]

how does gail find time to write any books? she is super well spoken in this thread.

[NewChad]

Gail - while I always enjoyed your writing, and have always found your posts here to be funny (if sometimes truly bizarre)...

... I think I have finally fallen in love with you!

If you ever get over to London pls join me and other members of the homosexualist axis for a drink!

[King of Mars]

If you mean well as in Dave didn't really answer any of the questions posed, then sure.I mean "well" as in he was polite and provided a general idea of his viewpoint.

[Pia Guerra]

I mean "well" as in he was polite and provided a general idea of his viewpoint.

Polite yes, but when asked to clarify is views on women and 'homosexualists' he quotes Gore Vidal.

Here's a guy who has said some very insulting statements about women and now he's writing a parody book about the fashion industry and people want to know how his views are going to shape the book, and yet not one direct answer. Doesn't make me want to buy the thing if it's going to be another unsuported ramble against my entire gender.

[King of Mars]

Polite yes, but when asked to clarify is views on women and 'homosexualists' he quotes Gore Vidal.I agree, he didn't do a great job of clarifying his viewpoints. I praised him simply for maintaining his composure in a thread where he was the target of some fairly...umm...spirited questioning. ;)


Here's a guy who has said some very insulting statements about women and now he's writing a parody book about the fashion industry and people want to know how his views are going to shape the book, and yet not one direct answer. Doesn't make me want to buy the thing if it's going to be another unsuported ramble against my entire gender.Fair enough. I understand that.

[Ben Weldon]

Now that I've actually read most of it, it's really fascinating.


Didn't mean to cause a stink earlier but sometimes people post stuff to other people on other boards and it gets taken down under that rule.

Totally understand. I wasn't 100% if it was kosher myself that's why I asked a mod.

[King of Mars]

I'll probably catch hell for this...but I actually agree with Sim that feminism has devalued the role of the homemaker in our society. Having a parent at home can be a really valuable resource for a developing child...but feminism has made it almost shameful for a woman to not go out into the workforce.

[Ashwin Pande]

Good discussion.

I think Gail did a pretty decent job of asking him questions politely and respectfully but some other guys there are just attacking each other and demanding the answers they want to hear out of Sim. Sim clearly isn't really giving any real answers and I felt ignored some questions. Probably because he wants to promote his book but it's hard now for his name to be attached to a project without some really difficult questions being asked of him. He can't expect people to ignore some of his previous writing and just go on board point blank on his new book.

Some of the quotes Gail posted from another board (I don't want to mention who because they're not really worth repeating) on that thread made me cringe. Disgusting how anyone can say that... even online where people want someone dead for writing Spider-Man "wrong".

[Pia Guerra]

I'll probably catch hell for this...but I actually agree with Sim that feminism has devalued the role of the homemaker in our society. Having a parent at home can be a really valuable resource for a developing child...but feminism has made it almost shameful for a woman to not go out into the workforce.

Believe it or not many feminists agree having a mother in the home is very beneficial, but the whole point of feminism is so those women who either have no choice but to work, or just want to pursue their dreams are supported, that they get equal pay, access to rights and opportunities they didn't have before.

Are there some wacky feminist views out there? Sure. Do they make up the majority? Far from it. Dave doesn't seem to think so and when he tries to make his point it's completely unsupported by facts. And then, anyone challenging his irrationality gets branded an emotional void.

Try again.

[King of Mars]

Are there some wacky feminist views out there? Sure. Do they make up the majority? Far from it.Perhaps not, but they've certainly played a role in shaping the general, societal disdain for women who choose to be homemakers.

[Pia Guerra]

Perhaps not, but they've certainly played a role in shaping the general, societal disdain for women who choose to be homemakers.

And I don't think there's as much of that as Doctor Laura would like America to think there is.

[King of Mars]

And I don't think there's as much of that as Doctor Laura would like America to think there is.I don't agree. I think that many working females feel disdain for women who choose to be homemakers. It's become undignified in this day and age.

[Ashwin Pande]

From personal experience I was very proud of my mother for deciding to work as a teacher (even though I cried at the time because it meant it was time she'd spend away from taking care of me- I was 6 I believe) and was very disappointed when around 8 years later she decided to stop teaching because she wanted to stay at home and take care of the hose. I had a discussion with her a few years earlier if she regretted the decision. She said she never did, she never felt that she "needed" to be a teacher or go work to make herself feel better as a woman or having accomplished something and never felt bad for staying at home and taking care of the house. She became a teacher because at the time she wanted to work and then years later decided she didn't want to. So personally I find it's wrong for some feminists to make women feel lesser for not wanting to work. It's a personal choice and there's nothing lesser or unfulfilling about staying at home and taking care of it, for some women at least.

[Pia Guerra]

I don't agree. I think that many working females feel disdain for women who choose to be homemakers. It's become undignified in this day and age.

I'm not one of them, and I know plenty of women who feel similarly. Which highlights exactly what's wrong with blanket statements like that.

[changingshades]

*gets bag of Bugles ready*

I like to put them on the end of my fingers and pretend I'm a witch

just so you know that about me

[King of Mars]

I'm not one of them, and I know plenty of women who feel similarly. Which highlights exactly what's wrong with blanket statements like that.There's nothing wrong with speaking of general tendencies as long as you bear in mind that many people defy them. I realize that not all working women look negatively on homemakers.

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

Like I said in my post about Sim calling the shop to promote his book, I don't know anything about him. I've never read Cerebus. So after reading a couple of pages in, I feel like I just don't have all the information to understand what I was looking at. Gail was really taking him to task on a number of serious topics, but like I said, I feel like I'm lacking in information to comment on anything. But I think that is somehow relates to my example of still being able to enjoy the Planet of the Apes, but not wanting to hang out with Chartlon Heston the man. Does that make sense in the context of what this thread is about?

[nick maynard]

There's nothing wrong with speaking of general tendencies as long as you bear in mind that many people defy them. I realize that not all working women look negatively on homemakers.

im not sure how this plays into anything, but there's a guy i was friends with in high school. and he married this girl from our high school, and his plan is to be a stay at home dad, and i DEFINITELY look negatively at him for it. but that has a ton to do with how i feel about him as a person, and not just his choice to stay at home.

[The Cheap-Arse Film Critic]

As awesome as that link is going to be...

... other board drama.

[Bill Nolan]

im not sure how this plays into anything, but there's a guy i was friends with in high school. and he married this girl from our high school, and his plan is to be a stay at home dad, and i DEFINITELY look negatively at him for it. but that has a ton to do with how i feel about him as a person, and not just his choice to stay at home.

:-x

[nick maynard]

:-x

sorry!

but like i said, its more because i think this dude is a scum bag, and less because he is staying at home.

[dEnny!]

I'm not one of them, and I know plenty of women who feel similarly. Which highlights exactly what's wrong with blanket statements like that.

Yeah, but even though you work I believe this type of blanket statement refers more to women who work in a very different field from you, more of the business industry or someone who is active in political/changing society/feminist groups. Do you work from home? Or go to a studio elsewhere? Though still a blanket statement because not all women feel this way, but there is a vocal group that would say that.

I wish I had a better memory, HA HA! I did a search and found it. I saw an interview on Colbert with Linda Hirschman, a feminist, who wrote a book called "GET TO WORK," essentially saying women who stay at home are not meeting their full potential, that choosing to be a homemaker is an awful choice. I need to find that old thread.


She said that women are not honored by working in the household?

FALSE! Mother's are highly revered and highly respected (except maybe by her).

And that women who work in the household are not powerful?

FALSE! Do you realize the power mother's have? Women who stay at home with their children are shaping the future generations.

I don't see anything wrong if women choose to work in the household. Of course she disagrees and feels that it is wrong.

"Just because you choose it, doesn't make it right." -- Linda Hirshman
"I want them to want what is right." -- Linda Hirshman


http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showthread.php?t=80815&highlight=Colbert+Report

[Bill Nolan]

sorry!

but like i said, its more because i think this dude is a scum bag, and less because he is staying at home.

Oddly enough, when I first started staying home with the kids, the group that most "looked down" upon it was working mothers. But not working grandmothers, they loved the idea. Working mothers. It was almost like something in their brains broke when you tried to explain that a dad was staying home with the kids. Stay-at-home moms were only a little better, but they only reacted the way they did because they viewed me as some type of intruder at their little "mommy get-togethers" like storyhour or dance class. But again, the grandmothers at these things thought I was the bees knees.

Every working dad was envious. But that's probably because I seldom have to wear anything more than sweatpants all day. LIVIN' THE DREAM!

[mario]

Also, in this day and age married women with children don't have the choice to stay at home anymore since they NEED that fulltime paycheck just to help pay the bills.

[NewChad]

But I think that is somehow relates to my example of still being able to enjoy the Planet of the Apes, but not wanting to hang out with Chartlon Heston the man. Does that make sense in the context of what this thread is about?

Makes a lot of sense. I think you can totally enjoy someones work without endorsing their entire belief systems.

[nick maynard]

Oddly enough, when I first started staying home with the kids, the group that most "looked down" upon it was working mothers. But not working grandmothers, they loved the idea. Working mothers. It was almost like something in their brains broke when you tried to explain that a dad was staying home with the kids. Stay-at-home moms were only a little better, but they only reacted the way they did because they viewed me as some type of intruder at their little "mommy get-togethers" like storyhour or dance class. But again, the grandmothers at these things thought I was the bees knees.

Every working dad was envious. But that's probably because I seldom have to wear anything more than sweatpants all day. LIVIN' THE DREAM!

haha, sweatpants is definitely a big part of my dream.

and i didnt mean any offense by what i said. this dude i know is just straight up lazy. and circumstances differ from stay at home dad to stay at home dad. this dude is a freeloader. and this was HIS decision, not THEIR decision. and that's shitty. if a guy and his wife decide this is what's best for their family, and they do it, then thats totally cool.

[Bill Nolan]

Don't worry about it. I wasn't seriously offended.

[Jew Mafia]

And, as a final note, may I just add that rigorous questioning of theories isn't an attack on reason, it's the BASIS of reason.

- Gail

:rock:

[Slewo.O]

:rock:

We need a Gail Simone board or a Gail Simone DAY to celebrate her :]. I seriously can't wait to meet her at Emerald City.

[Wastrel]

i found her to be pretty obnoxious. totally looking to pick a fight when he just wanted to promote his new comic. her first questions were totally loaded and i wouldnt have paid them attention either.

[FredC]

Wait, Dave Sim is a homophobe?

When I saw him at TCAF I thought he was gay.

Of course, I also thought he was one of the comic-con staff, judging by the way he'd dressed for the convention...

[Ben Weldon]

We need a Gail Simone board or a Gail Simone DAY to celebrate her :]. I seriously can't wait to meet her at Emerald City.

Just remember to spell her name in Hebrew like that bit in "Last Crusade".

[Criden]

If you ever get over to London pls join me and other members of the homosexualist axis for a drink!

:rofl:

[Foolish Mortal]

I'll probably catch hell for this...but I actually agree with Sim that feminism has devalued the role of the homemaker in our society. Having a parent at home can be a really valuable resource for a developing child...but feminism has made it almost shameful for a woman to not go out into the workforce.
Well that kind of thinking certainly doesn't help men in regards to being stay-at-home fathers. Men tend to avoid it like kryptonite as its seen as not a "manly" thing to do. Most men that have taken on the homemaker position in a household were forced into that situation by financial constraints and not so much by choice.

[Arion]

Wait, Dave Sim is a homophobe?

...

I had no idea .

[fuerstma]

I've got to say while Ms. Simone is the voice of reason and dare I say sanity in the conversation, her tone was certainly antagonistic. I don't think she truly intended to provoke a fight, I believe her comments along the lines of "I really want to stimulate a debate and pick your brain on these topics" were genuine; However, it seems like she is so offended by Sims stance that she can't help but throw in the "me and my silly void" type prods.

I guess it's hard not to take Sims statements personally, but having successful women showing up in the thread and saying that they can cook and work just fine doesn't really much prove Sim wrong. It seems to carry as much weight as Sim saying "My crazy ex wife couldn't do it, so, na-na-na-boo-boo".

[Adrian B AWESOME]

I've got it on pre-order and plan on enjoying it, yet somehow, I'm neither homophobic or misogynistic. Hate me.

[TIP]

I've got it on pre-order and plan on enjoying it, yet somehow, I'm neither homophobic or misogynistic. Hate me.

Ditto.
Ditto.
Ditto.

T

[ds9]

I love Gail

[Slewo.O]

I've got to say while Ms. Simone is the voice of reason and dare I say sanity in the conversation, her tone was certainly antagonistic. I don't think she truly intended to provoke a fight, I believe her comments along the lines of "I really want to stimulate a debate and pick your brain on these topics" were genuine; However, it seems like she is so offended by Sims stance that she can't help but throw in the "me and my silly void" type prods.

I guess it's hard not to take Sims statements personally, but having successful women showing up in the thread and saying that they can cook and work just fine doesn't really much prove Sim wrong. It seems to carry as much weight as Sim saying "My crazy ex wife couldn't do it, so, na-na-na-boo-boo".

Not more antagonistic than that other guy who kept claiming Sim was being evasive towards his questions. And Gail explained herself on why she didn't ask Glamourpuss questions since there's not much you can ask without spoiling the book. And he did say he'd be willing to debate anyway.

And I love Gail too but remember she's married so no chance for any of us :(.

[Brad N.]

I'll probably catch hell for this...but I actually agree with Sim that feminism has devalued the role of the homemaker in our society. Having a parent at home can be a really valuable resource for a developing child...but feminism has made it almost shameful for a woman to not go out into the workforce.

That's horseshit. MOST families today simply cannot afford to have one parent stay home. It has nothing at all to do with feminism in any way, shape or form. The fact that both parents work in most households today has more to do with the way our society is set up today and less to do with any idealogy. Blaming feminism is an old and tired excuse for the real problem we face with employers not paying a decent wage, insurance, etc.

[Slewo.O]

Feminism is about freedom of choice for women not forcing them into the workforce to "liberate them". Like Brad said it's out of need. My mom has her own accounting business, and works at a company for money not out of some need for feminists.

[Wastrel]

That's horseshit. MOST families today simply cannot afford to have one parent stay home. It has nothing at all to do with feminism in any way, shape or form. The fact that both parents work in most households today has more to do with the way our society is set up today and less to do with any idealogy. Blaming feminism is an old and tired excuse for the real problem we face with employers not paying a decent wage, insurance, etc.

its not horseshit, he is talking about perception. you are talking about something else.

[Brad N.]

Also, go Gail. Love ya, sista-friend!

[Brad N.]

its not horseshit, he is talking about perception. you are talking about something else.

I'm not arguing that. Sure there are some feminists who think that, but it seemed to me that my buddy Iconoclast was saying that because some feminists look down on stay at home moms that is the reason we have two working parents, which he sees as a problem. I think most would agree that it's better for one parent to stay at home and any perceptions about stay at home moms (even by feminists) are long gone today. While true that at one point early on there were some radical feminists who probably did look down on the housewife/June Cleaver type that isn't remotely true anymore as Pia pointed out. Again, perceptions aside none of that matters because the two working parents thing has nothing to do with any ideology or belief system. It's a necessity for most of us.

My wife and I both work, but we managed to recently avoid daycare by working opposite shifts. It sucks, but to save a few hundred bucks a month we had to sacrifice a little time with each other during the week and this way one of us is always home with our kids.

[WillieLee]

I've got it on pre-order and plan on enjoying it, yet somehow, I'm neither homophobic or misogynistic. Hate me.

Maybe you just don't know that you're homophobic or misogynistic!

[Joe Kalicki]

I only read the first few Gail/Dave posts, but Sim seemed like a pretty nice guy to me.

[NewChad]

I only read the first few Gail/Dave posts, but Sim seemed like a pretty nice guy to me.

Sim was totally cordial the entire way which says a lot about the man. Regardless of your views of his opinions, he came across as a class act.

But he did ignore a lot of questions.

[Forrest]

Given that you've gone after, at length and for many years, the "feminist/homosexualist" axis (I'm tempted to add "of evil" as a nod to both comic fans and your support of George W., kidding, kidding), would you say that your book is aimed more at those whose intellects and ethics you respect more, ie. straight white males?

I :heart: Gail Simone!

[PeterSparker]

So every board has someone like that Rev Smooth poster huh? Someone who obsesses over a certain creator, and has to just type away endlessly about it? Going over everything they say, line by line, convinced said creator even cares. That part was funny.

I love Gail, but I do think it was a bit lame to play the - oh Dave I'm just sincerely interested in your answers, lets be civil - card on that board, only to ridicule him somehwere else. Didn't really win any points there imo. Shoulda just ridiculed him to his face.


And does anyone have a link or some info on the "axis" and "void" comments they're all referencing. I know nothing about 'em.

[MattN]

i found her to be pretty obnoxious. totally looking to pick a fight when he just wanted to promote his new comic. her first questions were totally loaded and i wouldnt have paid them attention either.

Yeah she's totally out of line asking questions about past derogatory statements he's made towards women and gays when he's just there to promote his new comic. Which is a parody of the fashion world. How anyone could think his views on women and gays might be relevant in such a context is beyond me...

[PeterSparker]

Oh, and I want to add that I'm interested in picking up Glamourpuss now, and knew nothing about it this morning before clicking this thread. So hate me too! :D

[Jerome Gibbons]

Sim was totally cordial the entire way which says a lot about the man. Regardless of your views of his opinions, he came across as a class act.

I read an interview with him from The Onion. It was...jeez. The man really came off as kind of...insufferable.

[King of Mars]

That's horseshit.No, not really.


MOST families today simply cannot afford to have one parent stay home. It has nothing at all to do with feminism in any way, shape or form. The fact that both parents work in most households today has more to do with the way our society is set up today and less to do with any idealogy. Blaming feminism is an old and tired excuse for the real problem we face with employers not paying a decent wage, insurance, etc.I'm well aware of the fact that many women work because economics make it necessary. Doesn't change the fact that there's also a significant amount of social pressure on women to join the workforce.

[Hollingsworth]

He keeps writing "prayer time". Is he muslim?

[Slewo.O]

He keeps writing "prayer time". Is he muslim?

He considers Christianity, Judisam and Islam to be true.

[Hollingsworth]

Huh. Thanks.

[Haborym]

Tangent (http://www.theabsolute.net/misogyny/tangents.html)

"No one wants to be a woman." Dave Sim


I assume that anyone giving Gail shit has read Sim's Tangents. If not, follow the link above and have your eyes opened.

I almost believe that Dave went to SequentialTart knowing that he'd be called out on his beliefs and hoping that it would create a buzz for the new book.

[Pia Guerra]

Dave has been very vocal about how women in general, not just extreme bands of feminists but all women, are inferior. In his Tangents essays he has referred to females as 'voids' sucking on males who he saw as 'light'. He extended this analogy to female creators in this very industry. He has gone on about the inferiority of women, claiming their natural tendency towards emotionalism makes them incapable of rational thought. He has made some alarming statements about homosexuals and how their acts make him want to vomit.

I won't even begin to go into how he deliberately lied (by his own admission) about the successes that can be had in independent publishing all to prop his own book. Lot of people lapped that up and in turn lost a lot of money.

Now if this were some guy mumbling on a corner, no problem, let him go on with his wacky conspiracy theories, but this is a man who held quite a bit of authority in the industry as a champion for independent publishers. His words have influence that affect many creators trying to break in. He hasn't supported any of his claims with actual facts, he hasn't backed down from his rationalisations that women=bad.

Gail and many others are taking him to task for his words, both spoken and published and still he doesn't clarify his views.

The fact that he's gone on about how an evil 'feminist/homosexualist' axis is trying to destroy the natural order of the family via the fashion industry and now has a book parodying said fashion industry has set off some alarms. Is this an extension of Tangents? Is it just another slap in the face to female comic readers Dave clearly knows nothing about?

I think it's fair to ask these questions and I'm very happy that Gail is doing that.

[Keith P.]

As a member of the evil Homosexualist/Feminist axis all I have to say is...


Fuck you, our brunches are fabulous.

[Brad N.]

No, not really.

I'm well aware of the fact that many women work because economics make it necessary. Doesn't change the fact that there's also a significant amount of social pressure on women to join the workforce.

30-40 years ago, sure, I'd agree with you that there was a social pressure for women to join the workforce because there was. The female workforce was virtually nonexistent before then so it made sense. Today there is little to no social pressure for women to work. Please show me an example what you are talking about other than you think there is, maybe some commercials, TV shows, movies, prominent articles and books, etc. I agree that there are some radical feminists who might say this but as Pia pointed out today's feminists mostly agree that it's probably better for the kid to have the Mom at home rather than have the kid in daycare.

Regardless, even if you do believe that society puts pressure on women to work rather than stay at home (and I say it doesn't at all) to raise kids it doesn't take away the fact that most families cannot afford it, it's a moot point. If a guy made a large enough salary today to live comfortably and provide a better than average lifestyle with his income alone in 90% of the cases I guarantee you the wife would gladly stay at home to raise the kids.

That said it really comes off here like you're saying women are incapable of making their own choices without consulting the all-powerful imaginary feminist horde. Something Bill O'Reilly and Dave Sim have in common in their hatred of women by bringing up that strawman argument. I say most women in families work because they have to or feel they have to and the ones who don't simply choose to work because they want to and you're sounding like it's none of those things, but that they work because feminists tease them about being stay at home Moms. I'll say it again, it's horseshit.

[mike black]

Considering there's a plan for him to stop by this board as a part of his month long pimpage, I'd say it's noteworthy.

Somewhere, TIP is combing his hair very very carefully.

[Wastrel]

I assume that anyone giving Gail shit has read Sim's Tangents. If not, follow the link above and have your eyes opened.

not really. it doesnt matter if he deserves it, that doesnt mean she has to bully him cause something he said pissed her off once. it lowers her.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

What boring shit.

[tdaniel]

a few things about Sim and his views.

- it all smacks of self-loathing directed towards others. I offer no more proof than his own words and utter failure to answer gail's questions with logical rebuttals, proof, cogent examples, etc.

- dave visited my lcs in Santa Rosa, Ca way back in the 80s, fresh from his divorce with Gerhard in tow...and well, they certainly appeared to be way more than a creative partnership.

- why is this man making a comicbook about fashion? hmm.

- i would not buy his books because of his views simply because, as Sim himself put it, "that's just a viewpoint I hold".

[TIP]

Somewhere, TIP is combing his hair very very carefully.

I'm even primping the Cerebus my wife knit for me many moons ago (which we brought along to SPACE however many years ago and showed to Dave).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/tiptone/cerebus-doll.jpg

[Bill Nolan]

Dave Sim is one of the nicest, humblest, most easygoing creators I have ever met, going more out of his way to make his fans feel appreciated than anyone I've ever seen at a show.

[King of Mars]

30-40 years ago, sure, I'd agree with you that there was a social pressure for women to join the workforce because there was. The female workforce was virtually nonexistent before then so it made sense. Today there is little to no social pressure for women to work.I've met plenty of self-conscious homemakers who felt compelled to defend their choice to stay at home because of a sense that it's no longer permissible in our society. I've also come across a lot of catty, working women who talk shit about the housewives they know because there's a perception that they (the housewives) play a less valuable role in today's world.




Regardless, even if you do believe that society puts pressure on women to work rather than stay at home (and I say it doesn't at all) to raise kids it doesn't take away the fact that most families cannot afford it, it's a moot point. If a guy made a large enough salary today to live comfortably and provide a better than average lifestyle with his income alone in 90% of the cases I guarantee you the wife would gladly stay at home to raise the kids.
Perhaps, if economic improvement caused a shift in the general social mindset, that would be true. Doesn't change the fact that the modern woman, who might consider making some material sacrifices to stay home with her children, often feels compelled to ignore this option due to the social stigma attached to it.



That said it really comes off here like you're saying women are incapable of making their own choices without consulting the all-powerful imaginary feminist horde.No, I'm saying that societal attitudes and social norms affect the way we all conduct ourselves...and, in this case, they are causing some women to ignore life choices that would probably be beneficial to themselves and their children.




Something Bill O'Reilly and Dave Sim have in common in their hatred of women by bringing up that strawman argument. I say most women in families work because they have to or feel they have to and the ones who don't simply choose to work because they want to and you're sounding like it's none of those thingsNo, not really. That's your kneejerk liberalism at work. :) I realize that all of those things are reasons that some women choose to work. Doesn't change the fact that social pressure plays a role in certain womens' choices.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

Dave Sim is one of the nicest, humblest, most easygoing creators I have ever met, going more out of his way to make his fans feel appreciated than anyone I've ever seen at a show.

Yeah, but he's fucking crazy. And this is ME saying that.

[tdaniel]

i think it's fairly ridiculous that one gender attempts to even debate and define the other's role. it just goes wrong from that point forward.

[tdaniel]

Yeah, but he's fucking crazy. And this is ME saying that.

wow.
you do have tricks up your sleeve from time to time.

[William Joseph Dunn]

wow.
you do have tricks up your sleeve from time to time.

dude, hes got Falco as his avatar...theres no telling what Van Sciver will say or do.

[Bill Nolan]

Yeah, but he's fucking crazy. And this is ME saying that.

You, you couldn't have been nicer... but definitely more humble. Got just the right amount of crazy, tho'. ;)

[PeterSparker]

Tangent (http://www.theabsolute.net/misogyny/tangents.html)

"No one wants to be a woman." Dave Sim


I assume that anyone giving Gail shit has read Sim's Tangents. If not, follow the link above and have your eyes opened.

Thanks for the link, I've never read that before, but yeah its just too pondorous to read the whole thing anyway. :)

[Ethan Van Sciver]

wow.
you do have tricks up your sleeve from time to time.

"Feminists and gays are evil!"

"No they aren't!"

YAY!

My stance is that femmie straight guys are evil. Can't stand that.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

You, you couldn't have been nicer... but definitely more humble. Got just the right amount of crazy, tho'. ;)

Yeah, but seriously...I spent my life feigning humility while peasants walked tall. I am Ethan Fucking Van Sciver. Enough bullshit.

[Bill Nolan]

Yeah, but seriously...I spent my life feigning humility while peasants walked tall. I am Ethan Fucking Van Sciver. Enough bullshit.

That's truly inspirational. Serious truth. I hope someone makes it their sig. I'm far too lazy, but surely someone will rise to the occasion. I have sigs turned off, so I'm not even 100% sure what mine is these days...

[Colby]

a few things about Sim and his views.

- it all smacks of self-loathing directed towards others. I offer no more proof than his own words and utter failure to answer gail's questions with logical rebuttals, proof, cogent examples, etc.

I'm not entirely sure I agree with what you're driving at, but I know for certain that his essays say a lot more about him than they do women. When he gets to the part about talking to a woman for the first time without trying to have sex with her, he kinda reveals what's really going on in his head.

[Pia Guerra]

No, not really. That's your kneejerk liberalism at work. :) I realize that all of those things are reasons that some women choose to work. Doesn't change the fact that social pressure plays a role in certain womens' choices.

Compare this pressure to the pressure women had before feminism gave them more choices. If you weren't married off by 18 you were considered a dry old spinster who no one would ever love. Come on, the 'pressures' women face today just don't measure up to the societal stigma women who chose roles other than homemaker and mother used to have.

Dave made some wild statement on Tarts about how feminism is making it so that homemaking skills are somehow being lost forever. Our anecdotes were tossed in to show that despite having wonderful careers we still have plenty of those skills in our possesion thank you very much. That and because of changes in attitudes, those skills aren't just 'feminine' jobs anymore. Without the stigma of feminisation there's more division of labour in the home.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

Compare this pressure to the pressure women had before feminism gave them more choices. If you weren't married off by 18 you were considered a dry old spinster who no one would ever love. Come on, the 'pressures' women face today just don't measure up to the societal stigma women who chose roles other than homemaker and mother used to have.

Dave made some wild statement on Tarts about how feminism is making it so that homemaking skills are somehow being lost forever. Our anecdotes were tossed in to show that despite having wonderful careers we still have plenty of those skills in our possesion thank you very much. That and because of changes in attitudes, those skills aren't just 'feminine' jobs anymore. Without the stigma of feminisation there's more division of labour in the home.

Division of labor should be: One person earns the money, the other person tends to the home and children. I'll concede that it doesn't matter who does what, but both doing a little of each doesn't work very well. In my opinion.

[RebootedCorpse]

Division of labor should be: One person earns the money, the other person tends to the home and children. I'll concede that it doesn't matter who does what, but both doing a little of each doesn't work very well. In my opinion.

You sure are wrong about a lot of stuff.

[Pia Guerra]

Division of labor should be: One person earns the money, the other person tends to the home and children. I'll concede that it doesn't matter who does what, but both doing a little of each doesn't work very well. In my opinion.

Maybe that's the ideal if families can afford it, but not many can and the result is both have jobs and then the mom still has to do the majority of the home chores.

My own example was there to show how in our home, granted we have no kids, the jobs are divied out amongst our strengths. Ian loves to cook, I like to fix things and clean. We have an equal relationship and are very happy.

[Slewo.O]

Yeah, but seriously...I spent my life feigning humility while peasants walked tall. I am Ethan Fucking Van Sciver. Enough bullshit.
That's the same thing Bendis says. "No bullshit true fuckheads". Ethan I'm ashamed in you. Did you steal the line or did you create the line?

I'm personally of the opinion that as long as it's an equal division of labor it's fine. Or it could be everyone does a little bit of everything.

In this day of age the Leave it to Beaver family isn't as viable anymore.

[mattbrand]

Division of labor should be: One person earns the money, the other person tends to the home and children. I'll concede that it doesn't matter who does what, but both doing a little of each doesn't work very well. In my opinion.

My wife and I have both worked for years, both taken care of our share of stuff at home, and it's worked fine for us.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

You sure are wrong about a lot of stuff.

Works for my family. 10 years now, still chugging along, happy.

[Bill Nolan]

Division of labor should be: One person earns the money, the other person tends to the home and children. I'll concede that it doesn't matter who does what, but both doing a little of each doesn't work very well. In my opinion.

No wonder my wife is always pissed with me about the housework not getting done while she's at work... These exact words never made sense coming from her. :scared:

[Ethan Van Sciver]

Maybe that's the ideal if families can afford it, but not many can and the result is both have jobs and then the mom still has to do the majority of the home chores.

My own example was there to show how in our home, granted we have no kids, the jobs are divied out amongst our strengths. Ian loves to cook, I like to fix things and clean. We have an equal relationship and are very happy.

I end up doing my own laundry, but damned if I even TRIED to cook something. I'm horrible at it. But if both parents are working, who's watching the kids? It's got to be harmful for them.

[mattbrand]

I end up doing my own laundry, but damned if I even TRIED to cook something. I'm horrible at it. But if both parents are working, who's watching the kids? It's got to be harmful for them.

My wife works Tues - Sat at our shop. So she picks up my daughter at school on Monday and is with her. We have hired help to pick her up on Tues and Wed. My wife takes off a little time in the afternoon on Thurs to pick her up at school, and I work Mon - Thurs at my office and Fri at home, so I can pick her up at school on Friday.

So really, she is only not under our care Tues and Wed afternoons, and Wed she goes to Aikido at 4 anyway, and I pick her up after that.

Granted, we have more flexibility because my wife works at the shop that we own, so the more she is there the better, but if she needs to be there for my daughter, she can.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

No wonder my wife is always pissed with me about the housework not getting done while she's at work... These exact words never made sense coming from her. :scared:

You don't work?

[Bill Nolan]

You don't work?

Nope. I stay at home with the kids. Since Jan. 2001.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

Nope. I stay at home with the kids. Since Jan. 2001.

Ha ha! So the housework IS your job! Clean up, you! :)

[Ethan Van Sciver]

My wife works Tues - Sat at our shop. So she picks up my daughter at school on Monday and is with her. We have hired help to pick her up on Tues and Wed. My wife takes off a little time in the afternoon on Thurs to pick her up at school, and I work Mon - Thurs at my office and Fri at home, so I can pick her up at school on Friday.

So really, she is only not under our care Tues and Wed afternoons, and Wed she goes to Aikido at 4 anyway, and I pick her up after that.

Granted, we have more flexibility because my wife works at the shop that we own, so the more she is there the better, but if she needs to be there for my daughter, she can.

I didn't say it couldn't be done, I said it wasn't ideal. You'd probably agree that it'd be better if one of you was home all the time, yeah?

[mattbrand]

I didn't say it couldn't be done, I said it wasn't ideal. You'd probably agree that it'd be better if one of you was home all the time, yeah?

Not way man. I love the balance we have. We both get out of the house sans daughter enough, and we both get the chance to have plenty of time with her too.

Also, neither of us feels the house responsibilities as weight on our shoulders, as we both contribute.

[King of Mars]

Compare this pressure to the pressure women had before feminism gave them more choices. If you weren't married off by 18 you were considered a dry old spinster who no one would ever love. Come on, the 'pressures' women face today just don't measure up to the societal stigma women who chose roles other than homemaker and mother used to have.That's probably true, but it doesn't take away from the fact that we've probably gone too far in the opposite direction. It's all about finding the proper balance.


Dave made some wild statement on Tarts about how feminism is making it so that homemaking skills are somehow being lost forever. Our anecdotes were tossed in to show that despite having wonderful careers we still have plenty of those skills in our possesion thank you very much. That and because of changes in attitudes, those skills aren't just 'feminine' jobs anymore. Without the stigma of feminisation there's more division of labour in the home.I'm not defending his entire stance on women. I'm just discussing one thing that seemed to be a significant part of his conversation on Tarts.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

Not way man. I love the balance we have. We both get out of the house sans daughter enough, and we both get the chance to have plenty of time with her too.

Also, neither of us feels the house responsibilities as weight on our shoulders, as we both contribute.

I feel no weight on my shoulders for house responsibilities, and my wife feels no weight on hers about money, and therefore, we can focus our efforts on fewer problems each day. But we're the Van Scivers and you're the Mattbrands. Different strokes.

[mattbrand]

I feel no weight on my shoulders for house responsibilities, and my wife feels no weight on hers about money, and therefore, we can focus our efforts on fewer problems each day. But we're the Van Scivers and you're the Mattbrands. Different strokes.

Cool. Yeah, I'm not saying you should change anything. Just saying it works fine for us, and I'd not change a thing.

[Adrian B AWESOME]

I have a crazy idea. Why don't we actually wait until the book is released, read it, and THEN decide to call it women-hating shit? I mean, even I'll admit Sim is off on some of his views, but that doesn't AND SHOULDN'T take away from the fact that Cerebus is one of the most important comics to ever exist.

Too often people like to hold artist and art in the same scheme and judge the creation by the sins of the creator, and I don't believe that's right.

Take Polanski for example. He fucking raped a 13 year old girl, amongst other allegations, fled the country and has yet to return for his crimes. Yet, I'll be damned if Chinatown and The Pianist aren't two of the best movies I've ever seen in my life. I think he as a man is a coward and a bit of a monster, but I still enjoy his body of work beause that's not speaking anything about him.

While people may argue that Cerebus and Sim are one and the same, the character and the events in the book are still merely fictional events and while it may at times be swayed by Sim's viewpoint, it should and does stand apart from Dave Sim.

[TIP]

:heart:

T
(oops...I got emotional there :wink: )

[Masculine Todd]

Polite yes, but when asked to clarify is views on women and 'homosexualists' he quotes Gore Vidal.

Here's a guy who has said some very insulting statements about women and now he's writing a parody book about the fashion industry and people want to know how his views are going to shape the book, and yet not one direct answer. Doesn't make me want to buy the thing if it's going to be another unsuported ramble against my entire gender.

The irony of a man with very obtuse and absurd views involving homosexuals and women writing a comic that, ideally would appeal to gays and women is hilarious.

At the risk of coming across as a walking gay stereotype; I love fashion. I'm very interested in the aesthetics, social atmosphere and business of the fashion world. This comic comes across as incredibly interesting. Being a gay man, he's offended me a number of times, and though I've always prided myself on fully understanding that art is not a product of the ideological perspective of the person who crafted it, nor is their intentions a factor in how we, as consumers interpret it, even I'm suspectible to emotions and having my enjoyment of art being tainted my opinion of the creator and it's to the point that I'm strong debating not buying this book. I'll most likely be able to distinguish creator from art in the end, but it's tough, in this instance.

[Masculine Todd]

I have a crazy idea. Why don't we actually wait until the book is released, read it, and THEN decide to call it women-hating shit?

It's not necessarily the theme of the book itself that is incredibly uninviting. It's the belief system of the man writing it in relation to the themes that are to be explored in the book.


I mean, even I'll admit Sim is off on some of his views, but that doesn't AND SHOULDN'T take away from the fact that Cerebus is one of the most important comics to ever exist.

This, I agree with. Separating the creator from the work is a difficult task, but should be done. I'm trying to do it for Glamourpuss, because I'm very much intrigued by its premise (as well as skeptical).

[Glixy]

This, I agree with. Separating the creator from the work is a difficult task, but should be done. I'm trying to do it for Glamourpuss, because I'm very much intrigued by its premise (as well as skeptical).

I strongly disagree with this. If some dude is a raging anti-semite, I'm not going to buy his work and contribute to his success, regardless of the quality of the work.

I'm not saying that the work can't be praised or anything, but I'M not going to help support it.

[NewChad]

I have a crazy idea. Why don't we actually wait until the book is released, read it, and THEN decide to call it women-hating shit? I mean, even I'll admit Sim is off on some of his views, but that doesn't AND SHOULDN'T take away from the fact that Cerebus is one of the most important comics to ever exist.

Too often people like to hold artist and art in the same scheme and judge the creation by the sins of the creator, and I don't believe that's right.

Take Polanski for example. He fucking raped a 13 year old girl, amongst other allegations, fled the country and has yet to return for his crimes. Yet, I'll be damned if Chinatown and The Pianist aren't two of the best movies I've ever seen in my life. I think he as a man is a coward and a bit of a monster, but I still enjoy his body of work beause that's not speaking anything about him.

While people may argue that Cerebus and Sim are one and the same, the character and the events in the book are still merely fictional events and while it may at times be swayed by Sim's viewpoint, it should and does stand apart from Dave Sim.

personally, i'm not questioning his art, but this thread is more about the man not about the book.

[Adrian B AWESOME]

I strongly disagree with this. If some dude is a raging anti-semite, I'm not going to buy his work and contribute to his success, regardless of the quality of the work.

I'm not saying that the work can't be praised or anything, but I'M not going to help support it.

So then return all your Mel Gibson movies right now.

[Masculine Todd]

I strongly disagree with this. If some dude is a raging anti-semite, I'm not going to buy his work and contribute to his success, regardless of the quality of the work.

I'm not saying that the work can't be praised or anything, but I'M not going to help support it.

That's fine.

I'm of a different ideology: art is not a product of the person who made it. Once it's unleashed on the world, the idiosyncracies that litter the work are at the mercy of public interpretation, and the intent of the artist is meanlingless. What they were striving for and their own wordly perspectives are meaningless. That's how art should be.

I cannot for the life of me recall the philosopher who first crafted this theory of art, but it's very much true. While you're refusing to "support the creator," you're also denying yourself quality art.

[Adrian B AWESOME]

personally, i'm not questioning his art, but this thread is more about the man not about the book.

The man is a bit nuts. And Pia seems to be the only one who's called it out, but you guys who are arguing against or for Sim really need to read Tangents if you haven't, because that's what 99% of this stems from. It's a very surreal piece. And while I know he's recanted on some of it, the fact that it exists under his name is kind of sad for me.

Still, the man is nothing less than a gentleman in person and really has created some beautiful things. I mean, fuck, in Cerebus, his character, that so many people claim IS Sim, ultimately goes to Hell. I mean, if we are to assume that Sim and his character are interchangable, what does this say about the man himself? (More of a rhetorical question than anything)

[costello]

That's fine.

I'm of a different ideology: art is not a product of the person who made it. Once it's unleashed on the world, the idiosyncracies that litter the work are at the mercy of public interpretation, and the intent of the artist is meanlingless. What they were striving for and their own wordly perspectives are meaningless. That's how art should be.

I cannot for the life of me recall the philosopher who first crafted this theory of art, but it's very much true. While you're refusing to "support the creator," you're also denying yourself quality art.

I agree.

[NewChad]

Still, the man is nothing less than a gentleman in person and really has created some beautiful things.

That's definitely the impression I get and I don't have a bad thing to say about him in person. He handled the thread with elegance and I appreciate his not descending into the usual internet 'hate-baiting'.

To be honest, it made me MORE interested to read his work - even though I know I'm going to hate some of it. But then again, if everyone agreed with my worldview it would be a rather dull place.

[Magnum V.I.]

I didn't say it couldn't be done, I said it wasn't ideal. You'd probably agree that it'd be better if one of you was home all the time, yeah?

I don't think that works with all people. My wife has told me when she was growing up her Mother was a House Wife and her father worked and that they finally got divorced because of that. For some reason her Mother just started to resent her father more and more. A lot of it has to do with communication issues as well, but still, It only works for certain people i think. Me and my wife have already agreed to look at someone staying home to raise the children until they are old enough to go to school. More than likely it will be me since I'm about to get into the P.I. field and that would be able to work around raising children that we one day decide we might have.

But I grew up in a single parent home for about 10 years so I have no idea what a stay at home parent really is like.

[William Joseph Dunn]

I'm of a different ideology: art is not a product of the person who made it. Once it's unleashed on the world, the idiosyncracies that litter the work are at the mercy of public interpretation, and the intent of the artist is meanlingless. What they were striving for and their own wordly perspectives are meaningless. That's how art should be.

I cannot for the life of me recall the philosopher who first crafted this theory of art, but it's very much true. While you're refusing to "support the creator," you're also denying yourself quality art.

So true. If I denied myself art from creators that I would probably wouldn't care for if I met them in person, I would miss out on work of Pablo Picasso, Miles Davis, Wagner, Elia Kazan, Hemingway, Jackson Pollack.....actually the list can go on forever if you list the artists that were misogynists, antisemitic, homophobic, racists, or all around douche bags.

That being said, Sim is either playing the biggest practical joke on all of us, by doing a book that would probably have the biggest audience for the group he alienates the most (women and gays) or he has really lost any grip of reality he had left.

[Blandy vs Terrorism]

So then return all your Mel Gibson movies right now.

Yyyyyep.

[Gail Simone]

So every board has someone like that Rev Smooth poster huh? Someone who obsesses over a certain creator, and has to just type away endlessly about it? Going over everything they say, line by line, convinced said creator even cares. That part was funny.

I love Gail, but I do think it was a bit lame to play the - oh Dave I'm just sincerely interested in your answers, lets be civil - card on that board, only to ridicule him somehwere else. Didn't really win any points there imo. Shoulda just ridiculed him to his face.


And does anyone have a link or some info on the "axis" and "void" comments they're all referencing. I know nothing about 'em.

I didn't go there to attack Dave.

And Wasterl's wrong, but there you are.

Here's the truth of it. I am, as many are, conflicted when it comes to Dave. Love the artist, hate the weirdo who goes around claiming women are voids leeching off the unassailable male light and gay sex is like a puddle of vomit.

His idea of 'research' is essentially pulling stuff out of his ass (the percentages he quoted were debunked almost immediately) and frankly, I'm one who believes you confront bullies and flat-Earthers, as ignoring them just gives them weight and credibility they wouldn't otherwise have.

HOWEVER,

Dave Sim isn't like, say, an asshole like John Edwards, sponging off of people's grief and without a single useful quality.

He is a gifted artist and writer and a huge influence on me (the Misfit character in Bop contains a deliberate Sim tribute), and for many years, the creator of one of only two books I collected.

So what you're sensing isn't me glad-handing. It is the unfortunate effect of my genuine admiration for the man and his work, and my equal interest in hearing him explain some of his previously unsupported positions.

Even most of the very very hardcore Dave defenders said the questions were legitimate.

What I said at my own board is just the same thing over and over (and it actually took place over an extended time, during a very lengthy and interesting discussion). Basically, it's the same thing with different words.

"I can't believe that's all there is."

Honestly, I admit, I was baffled. I thought it'd be David and Goliath, but with ME as David. Instead, I felt like, if anything, I had to lob relative softballs because Dave was so clearly unable to answer any of the questions in any reasoned manner.

In short, I was a bit stunned and bewildered, and yes, I repeated myself over and over. "What the hell? That's all he's got?"

Because, in my mind, I had built Dave up as a TOWERING INTELLECTUAL. That's certainly the image he's given off in the past, mocking anyone who disagreed with him as if they're too stupid to live.

It took a while to realize what I was feeling wasn't anger, it was pity. And that's mostly what I feel for him right now, to be honest. What a big pile of nothing all that supposedly inarguable nonsense was. I still tried to make sure I talked about things he had done that were admirable and impressive. I don't believe anyone, let alone a harmless crank who happens to be a brilliant creator, is all bad.

And finally, my message board is open to the public and I knew full well everything I said was being reported. I just had that weird feeling you get while watching a car wreck. You can't stop saying, "Did you see that? Did you see that?"

I didn't go there to attack Dave. But every fucking message board he's gone to, they're falling all over themselves to hump his leg and bring him pillows, while on those same boards, he is openly mocked 90% of the time, if he's mentioned at all.

THAT I find a little dishonest.

I'm not perfect, but I only asked questions a LOT of us wanted to ask for a long, long time, and Dave himself said he was open to discuss gender politics at that board, thank god, because pretty soon we'll be down to long debates about the staples in glamourpuss, otherwise.

I admire the guy for being willing to go there and answer questions. But I admit I was astounded by how empty the responses were, after thirteen years of telling us all how fact-based all his findings were, and how no one would engage him on a reasoned basis.

When someone did, he yelled out some gibberish and left.

It's sad, is what it is. I don't feel like I ACHIEVED anything, but I might well have UNCOVERED something.

That's all.

Best,

Gail

[Gail Simone]

Oh, and I want to add that I'm interested in picking up Glamourpuss now, and knew nothing about it this morning before clicking this thread. So hate me too! :D

Hey, that is FINE. Seriously.

I've said a million times, I don't wish Dave ill. I wish him nothing but success, and I hope glamourpuss sells a million copies, and if he were here in front of me, I'd be thanking him for some of my favorite comics ever.

Disagreeing with the man doesn't mean he's one whit less talented or important to comics history.

Gail

[Gail Simone]

Tangent (http://www.theabsolute.net/misogyny/tangents.html)

"No one wants to be a woman." Dave Sim


I assume that anyone giving Gail shit has read Sim's Tangents. If not, follow the link above and have your eyes opened.

I almost believe that Dave went to SequentialTart knowing that he'd be called out on his beliefs and hoping that it would create a buzz for the new book.

That bit right there?

That's exactly the kind of nonsense he is living by. Jesus, I wouldn't trade my life right now for ANYONE. I have a husband I adore, a son I love more than air, two goofy dogs, and a career and friends I couldn't have imagined.

I wouldn't be one scrap happier with a penis, I shouldn't think, unless it was attached to something funny, like a Slinky or a Tilt-a-whirl.

Gail

[Gail Simone]

not really. it doesnt matter if he deserves it, that doesnt mean she has to bully him cause something he said pissed her off once. it lowers her.

How does an former hairdresser from the boonies with half a degree, in theatre arts, yet, bully the TOWERING GENIUS OF LOGIC AND REASON who created, by the way, one of the most brilliant extended narratives in comics history?

Wastrel, for YEARS, Dave has shredded everyone who DARED question his genius in all matters related to gender and sexuality. Who set him up as an untouchable genius? Who claimed no one ever dared discuss the issues with him in a rational manner?

He did.

Loudly and repeatedly, and anyone who dared challenge him was 'emotion-based' and 'unwilling to look at documented percentages.'

Seriously. Two days ago, who would have thought it even POSSIBLE that I, me, a relative comics nobody and newbie, without that huge weight of intellect and research, could even CONCEIVABLY bully the Great and Powerful Dave Sim?

I surely didn't think so.

But when a guy can't answer even the simplest question, then throws out a bullshit number that he made up or misheard, then leaves...

I don't know. I guess if you know the ending, it could look like bullying.

But I sure didn't expect "WE SURRENDER AND YOU ARE MEAN!" to be the response so quickly!

Gail

[Gail Simone]

What boring shit.

YOU are!


No, I love ya. Dammit.

I guess not ALL threads could be about how Ann Coulter probably smells real nice, I bet.

;)

Gail

[Gail Simone]

I'm even primping the Cerebus my wife knit for me many moons ago (which we brought along to SPACE however many years ago and showed to Dave).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/tiptone/cerebus-doll.jpg

I do love the aardvark. Hell, I even like DAVE.

I just expected some THERE there.

Gail

[Gail Simone]

Division of labor should be: One person earns the money, the other person tends to the home and children. I'll concede that it doesn't matter who does what, but both doing a little of each doesn't work very well. In my opinion.

My husband and I both work, and we spend more time with our son than many parents who don't work at all.

It's a matter of priorities, not generalities.

Gail

[Hawkdevil]

I'm even primping the Cerebus my wife knit for me many moons ago (which we brought along to SPACE however many years ago and showed to Dave).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/tiptone/cerebus-doll.jpg

There is irony somewhere in this post. :lol:

[Gail Simone]

I have a crazy idea. Why don't we actually wait until the book is released, read it, and THEN decide to call it women-hating shit? I mean, even I'll admit Sim is off on some of his views, but that doesn't AND SHOULDN'T take away from the fact that Cerebus is one of the most important comics to ever exist.

Too often people like to hold artist and art in the same scheme and judge the creation by the sins of the creator, and I don't believe that's right.

Take Polanski for example. He fucking raped a 13 year old girl, amongst other allegations, fled the country and has yet to return for his crimes. Yet, I'll be damned if Chinatown and The Pianist aren't two of the best movies I've ever seen in my life. I think he as a man is a coward and a bit of a monster, but I still enjoy his body of work beause that's not speaking anything about him.

While people may argue that Cerebus and Sim are one and the same, the character and the events in the book are still merely fictional events and while it may at times be swayed by Sim's viewpoint, it should and does stand apart from Dave Sim.

That would be a great point, except for it not having actually happened, to my knowledge.

Where is this big crowd of people saying they think glamourpuss will be woman-hating shit? I said repeatedly I hope it sells a million.

Gail

[Slewo.O]

I do love the aardvark. Hell, I even like DAVE.

I just expected some THERE there.

Gail

The Aardvark scared me :\. Personally Gail I think you did a fine job of calling him on his beliefs without calling for his head like that Rev Smooth guy was :\. I wonder if he knows you write Wonder Woman :mistrust:

[Thommy Melanson]

D.A.V.E. S.I.M.

Dutifully Accepting Vaginal Emotional Silliness In Moderation.

[Gail Simone]

Rev is a woman, a bisexual woman (so she's a double threat!), and a very talented comics artist, just for the record.

I thought a lot of people got a bit hostile when it was unnecessary, but that certainly wasn't my intent. I expected spirited debate.

That's really all I expected!

Gail

[Wastrel]

How does an former hairdresser from the boonies with half a degree, in theatre arts, yet, bully the TOWERING GENIUS OF LOGIC AND REASON who created, by the way, one of the most brilliant extended narratives in comics history?

Wastrel, for YEARS, Dave has shredded everyone who DARED question his genius in all matters related to gender and sexuality. Who set him up as an untouchable genius? Who claimed no one ever dared discuss the issues with him in a rational manner?

He did.

Loudly and repeatedly, and anyone who dared challenge him was 'emotion-based' and 'unwilling to look at documented percentages.'

Seriously. Two days ago, who would have thought it even POSSIBLE that I, me, a relative comics nobody and newbie, without that huge weight of intellect and research, could even CONCEIVABLY bully the Great and Powerful Dave Sim?

I surely didn't think so.

But when a guy can't answer even the simplest question, then throws out a bullshit number that he made up or misheard, then leaves...

I don't know. I guess if you know the ending, it could look like bullying.

But I sure didn't expect "WE SURRENDER AND YOU ARE MEAN!" to be the response so quickly!

Gail

thats a bunch of silly rhetoric. i dont think anyone, including yourself, went into that thinking he was an unassailable fortress of intellect. and since that difference didnt exist, you going on the attack as if it did would more than cross the borderline of a reasonable exchange.
my whole point is just this: just because you can rub his nose in his mess doesnt mean you should. and it seems to me reading those posts that you really, really wanted to. personally, i dont think you should and if you do, dont do it publicly. is that perspective so wrong?

[Slewo.O]

Rev is a woman, a bisexual woman (so she's a double threat!), and a very talented comics artist, just for the record.

I thought a lot of people got a bit hostile when it was unnecessary, but that certainly wasn't my intent. I expected spirited debate.

That's really all I expected!

Gail

I know Rev is a woman. I have a bad habit of referring to everyone as guys.

Speaking of which Gail what conventions are you going to this year? I think you're going to Emerald City. If the Benbo boards are any preview I'm going to love meeting you in person.

[Hawkdevil]

thats a bunch of silly rhetoric. i dont think anyone, including yourself, went into that thinking he was an unassailable fortress of intellect. and since that difference didnt exist, you going on the attack as if it did would more than cross the borderline of a reasonable exchange.
my whole point is just this: just because you can rub his nose in his mess doesnt mean you should. and it seems to me reading those posts that you really, really wanted to. personally, i dont think you should and if you do, dont do it publicly. is that perspective so wrong?

Dave Sim SHOULD be able to (and yes, be EXPECTED to) defend his opinions in any venue. He's set up a system of belief that's VERY contrary to SO MANY accepted systems of belief and had written a 300-issue exegesis on the subject for mainstream consumption and digestion. He, in the back of those issues, set himself up as a man who COULD and WOULD defend those beliefs and as a man who would ATTACK any other person (publicly, no less) that he disagreed with and urged others to do the same. Even IN THE STORY he mocked countless people and fellow comic professionals personally AND based on their viewpoints and lifestyles. Now, later in his life, when he is questioned intelligently about his views, he evades, lies, and runs. I think Gail was totally within her bounds to act and react the ways she did.

....IMO, of course.

[NickT]

So then return all your Mel Gibson movies right now.
I think that's the problem with boycotting works from people with bad opinions. At some point you end up boycotting everything if you follow through.

[Ben Weldon]

thats a bunch of silly rhetoric. i dont think anyone, including yourself, went into that thinking he was an unassailable fortress of intellect. and since that difference didnt exist, you going on the attack as if it did would more than cross the borderline of a reasonable exchange.
my whole point is just this: just because you can rub his nose in his mess doesnt mean you should. and it seems to me reading those posts that you really, really wanted to. personally, i dont think you should and if you do, dont do it publicly. is that perspective so wrong?

Yes it does. Yes it absolutely, positively, 100% does. Sim is the one who made his opinions public.

[Wastrel]

Dave Sim SHOULD be able to (and yes, be EXPECTED to) defend his opinions in any venue. He's set up a system of belief that's VERY contrary to SO MANY accepted systems of belief and had written a 300-issue exegesis on the subject for mainstream consumption and digestion. He, in the back of those issues, set himself up as a man who COULD and WOULD defend those beliefs and as a man who would ATTACK any other person (publicly, no less) that he disagreed with and urged others to do the same. Even IN THE STORY he mocked countless people and fellow comic professionals personally AND based on their viewpoints and lifestyles. Now, later in his life, when he is questioned intelligently about his views, he evades, lies, and runs. I think Gail was totally within her bounds to act and react the ways she did.

....IMO, of course.
right, but just because he deserved it doesnt mean she should stoop to dishing it out.

[Hawkdevil]

right, but just because he deserved it doesnt mean she should stoop to dishing it out.

if you wanna call it "stooping," then I get what you're saying. But I thought she challenged him on an intellectual and respectful level... It's just his reaction that makes her appear the "bully."

But I do understand what you mean, and I'm not intending to attack you, btw.

[Wastrel]

Yes it does. Yes it absolutely, positively, 100% does. Sim is the one who made his opinions public.

well, i disagree. i think sometimes you just need to be able to let things go.

[Wastrel]

if you wanna call it "stooping," then I get what you're saying. But I thought she challenged him on an intellectual and respectful level... It's just his reaction that makes her appear the "bully."

But I do understand what you mean, and I'm not intending to attack you, btw.
hehehe, i know. but i dont really think it was just his reaction. her first posts seemed to me to be like a high school bully walking up to someone in the hall, pushing them and saying "sorry. i dont want a fight". then pushing them again.

[Glixy]

I think that's the problem with boycotting works from people with bad opinions. At some point you end up boycotting everything if you follow through.

Its more than a bad opinion, he actively hates me and my people. I don't support him, and I don't own any of his movies.

It's like putting money in his pocket. It would be like walking up to some skinhead with a swastika tatoo and giving him a 20. I won't do it.

I'm not some over-sensitive PC asshole, I just don't see how you can support someone who is "evil". I don't go around finding out entertainers opinions about stuff, so I can boycott it, but if some dude comes out and says the shit he said, I can't support his work.

Back in the day Sebastain Bach wore a shirt that said "AIDS kills fags dead" and I stopped buying Skid Row records.

Its one thing to feel that way, its another to throw it in my face.

[Gail Simone]

thats a bunch of silly rhetoric. i dont think anyone, including yourself, went into that thinking he was an unassailable fortress of intellect. and since that difference didnt exist, you going on the attack as if it did would more than cross the borderline of a reasonable exchange.
my whole point is just this: just because you can rub his nose in his mess doesnt mean you should. and it seems to me reading those posts that you really, really wanted to. personally, i dont think you should and if you do, dont do it publicly. is that perspective so wrong?

Well, it's certainly INACCURATE.

And I absolutely DID think Dave was Mr. Intimidating Intellect.

Please don't base your conclusion on things you couldn't possibly know, like my personal opinion of Dave or his intellectual capabilities. I stated them plainly here not a few posts ago.

I wanted answers. I never for a moment thought I would even be ABLE to 'rub his nose in it.' That's just silly guesswork.

Gail

[Hawkdevil]

Back in the day Sebastain Bach wore a shirt that said "AIDS kills fags dead" and I stopped buying Skid Row records.

Years later, he was a reoccurring character on the Gilmore Girls.

Take THAT, homophobe!

[Glixy]

Years later, he was a reoccurring character on the Gilmore Girls.

Take THAT, homophobe!

And now he's on Broadway. Who'd of thunk it.

Next thing you know, he's going to be having brunch with Keith P. :)

[Wastrel]

Well, it's certainly INACCURATE.

And I absolutely DID think Dave was Mr. Intimidating Intellect.

Please don't base your conclusion on things you couldn't possibly know, like my personal opinion of Dave or his intellectual capabilities. I stated them plainly here not a few posts ago.

I wanted answers. I never for a moment thought I would even be ABLE to 'rub his nose in it.' That's just silly guesswork.

Gail

well alright, but dont sell yourself short on your intellectual ability.

[Gail Simone]

hehehe, i know. but i dont really think it was just his reaction. her first posts seemed to me to be like a high school bully walking up to someone in the hall, pushing them and saying "sorry. i dont want a fight". then pushing them again.

Well, you're certainly entitled to your guesswork!

Two days ago I didn't even know it was POSSIBLE to 'bully' Dave.

And, like most reasoning people, I think people should be responsible for their words. The more extreme the views, the more reasonable it is to scrutinize them.

Gail

[Hawkdevil]

And now he's on Broadway. Who'd of thunk it.

Next thing you know, he's going to be having brunch with Keith P. :)

BrokeBACH Mountain? :mistrust:

eh? eh?


...:Oops:

[Glixy]

BrokeBACH Mountain? :mistrust:

eh? eh?


...:Oops:

You been hanging out with Gordon?

[Gail Simone]

well alright, but dont sell yourself short on your intellectual ability.

I don't think I'm stupid, and I am a card-carrying skeptic. The Skeptical Credo is, Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Proof. But absolutely I had a picture in my mind of Dave as a much higher level thinker.

Dave said it was okay to ask about gender politics, and I feel I was blunt and not very diplomatic, but absolutely within the boundaries of fairness, BASED as they were on Sim's own words and positions, stated REPEATEDLY for a number of years.

Gail

[Thommy Melanson]

BrokeBACH Mountain? :mistrust:

eh? eh?


...:Oops:

"This one sez 'I Don't Know How To Quit You'."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b2/Sebastian_Bach.jpg/220px-Sebastian_Bach.jpg

[Hawkdevil]

"This one sez 'I Don't Know How To Quit You'."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b2/Sebastian_Bach.jpg/220px-Sebastian_Bach.jpg

:rofl:

Way to turn a lose into a win!

[William Joseph Dunn]

....Here's the truth of it. I am, as many are, conflicted when it comes to Dave. Love the artist, hate the weirdo who goes around claiming women are voids leeching off the unassailable male light and gay sex is like a puddle of vomit.

Is the conflict really more of, unlike what The Todd was saying in his post about separating the artist from the art, that you were seeing Dave's agenda seep in to his work more?

I guess what I'm saying is that sometimes you can look at an artist's work and see the art for the art sake and not get mired down with the artist's "shit". If you listened to Miles Davis, you wouldn't hear a wife beater on the trumpet, if you watched "Chinatown" you wouldn't see a film by a pedophile rapist, if you looked at a painting by Gauguin, you would see the work of a guy who abandoned his family because he didn't feel like being a husband and father anymore at the age of 37. I stopped reading Sim's work because I just wasn't entertained anymore and that his book became more about something else. I've never met Sim, but based on the things that he has written of late, it looks (from the outside) that hes a real unhappy, conflicted guy that needs to look like hes got it all worked out and has all the answers.



....Because, in my mind, I had built Dave up as a TOWERING INTELLECTUAL. That's certainly the image he's given off in the past, mocking anyone who disagreed with him as if they're too stupid to live......

Towering intellectual? Really? I didn't think he was an idiot, but I didn't see him as Salman Rushdie or Noam Chomsky either.

[Gail Simone]

I know Rev is a woman. I have a bad habit of referring to everyone as guys.

Speaking of which Gail what conventions are you going to this year? I think you're going to Emerald City. If the Benbo boards are any preview I'm going to love meeting you in person.

That would be great!

Actually, this is going to sound weird, but one of the funnest things about the Emerald City Con last year was that I was surrounded almost exclusively by Marvel creators. At most cons, I'm a guest of DC, or I hang with people I know better and work with more often, so that again has me hanging around DC people.

But last year I was right by a ton of Marvel people I really admire, like Bendis and Mack and Oeming and Cho and Brubaker, and a ton of others, and they could NOT have been sweeter or more welcoming. I had a great time, and Taki Soma was there and she's awesome, too. They really made me feel very welcome, and I enjoyed it a lot. Although I had to hit Brian with a rolled up poster. Lots of the Marvel guys did sketches for my son, just to be nice (Taki, too, and man, can she draw), and Brian very kindly gave me a tpb I didn't have.

It was great fun. Whatever else you want to say about the Marvel guys, they were incredibly warm and gracious.

Gail

[Thommy Melanson]

...It was great fun. Whatever else you want to say about the Marvel guys, they were incredibly warm and gracious.

Gail

That's how they lure you into the refrigerator!

[Gail Simone]

Is the conflict really more of, unlike what The Todd was saying in his post about separating the artist from the art, that you were seeing Dave's agenda seep in to his work more?

I guess what I'm saying is that sometimes you can look at an artist's work and see the art for the art sake and not get mired down with the artist's "shit". If you listened to Miles Davis, you wouldn't hear a wife beater on the trumpet, if you watched "Chinatown" you wouldn't see a film by a pedophile rapist, if you looked at a painting by Gauguin, you would see the work of a guy who abandoned his family because he didn't feel like being a husband and father anymore at the age of 37. I stopped reading Sim's work because I just wasn't entertained anymore and that his book became more about something else. I've never met Sim, but based on the things that he has written of late, it looks (from the outside) that hes a real unhappy, conflicted guy that needs to look like hes got it all worked out and has all the answers.




Towering intellectual? Really? I didn't think he was an idiot, but I didn't see him as Salman Rushdie or Noam Chomsky either.


Well, I was bored of Cerebus by the time it got to the whacko stuff. I'm told some of it is great still, right up to the end, but I'd quit by that time.

As for the towering thing, well, yeah, but you have to think back to what it was like, when Cerebus seemed like a fiercely intellectual comic created by a take-no-prisoners genius. I guess I had built that image up in my head.

And I do still admire him and love his art.

I just can't take any of his crazy theories seriously if this is how he responds.

Both things are true, it's not one or the other. I had A or B thinking. Most things are A AND B.

Gail

[Gail Simone]

I forgot...

I'm definitely doing the Emerald City con, and a seminar in Florida in March, and Cape in, I think May.

The rest I can't discuss yet, sorry!

Gail

[Hawkdevil]

I forgot...

I'm definitely doing the Emerald City con, and a seminar in Florida in March, and Cape in, I think May.

The rest I can't discuss yet, sorry!

Gail

Come to Philadelphia plzkthx. :cool:

[Slewo.O]

That would be great!

Actually, this is going to sound weird, but one of the funnest things about the Emerald City Con last year was that I was surrounded almost exclusively by Marvel creators. At most cons, I'm a guest of DC, or I hang with people I know better and work with more often, so that again has me hanging around DC people.

But last year I was right by a ton of Marvel people I really admire, like Bendis and Mack and Oeming and Cho and Brubaker, and a ton of others, and they could NOT have been sweeter or more welcoming. I had a great time, and Taki Soma was there and she's awesome, too. They really made me feel very welcome, and I enjoyed it a lot. Although I had to hit Brian with a rolled up poster. Lots of the Marvel guys did sketches for my son, just to be nice (Taki, too, and man, can she draw), and Brian very kindly gave me a tpb I didn't have.

It was great fun. Whatever else you want to say about the Marvel guys, they were incredibly warm and gracious.

Gail

That sounds about right. The Marvel girls are really nice I met Dave Finch at Phoenix Con and he was real accommodating while he was signing my books.

Part of me wishes my mom was in the comic industry XD. And it's okay I'm sure the other dates'll be announced soon.

[Gail Simone]

Its more than a bad opinion, he actively hates me and my people. I don't support him, and I don't own any of his movies.

It's like putting money in his pocket. It would be like walking up to some skinhead with a swastika tatoo and giving him a 20. I won't do it.

I'm not some over-sensitive PC asshole, I just don't see how you can support someone who is "evil". I don't go around finding out entertainers opinions about stuff, so I can boycott it, but if some dude comes out and says the shit he said, I can't support his work.

Back in the day Sebastain Bach wore a shirt that said "AIDS kills fags dead" and I stopped buying Skid Row records.

Its one thing to feel that way, its another to throw it in my face.

Truthfully?

I love Phil Spector's work. But he murdered a young woman. Fuck him.

Mel Gibson showed a hateful, vicious and worthless side while DRIVING DRUNK.

Fuck him, too.

It's not that I am TRYING to separate their actions from their art.

It's that I can't HELP it.

Gail

[Gail Simone]

That sounds about right. The Marvel girls are really nice I met Dave Finch at Phoenix Con and he was real accommodating while he was signing my books.

Part of me wishes my mom was in the comic industry XD. And it's okay I'm sure the other dates'll be announced soon.

What Marvel girls?

You mean editors?

Does Marvel have a lot of women creators right now? I remember hearing about some that had projects in the pipeline (we have some at DC, too) but at both companies, it's still a pretty small handful, unfortunately.

I like to keep up!

Gail

[Thommy Melanson]

I forgot...

I'm definitely doing the Emerald City con, and a seminar in Florida in March, and Cape in, I think May.

The rest I can't discuss yet, sorry!

Gail

Come to Baltimore Comic Con.

You can take The Wire tour!

Tourists get dropped off in the ghetto after midnight.

Actually, the Geppi's Museum @ Camden Yards is a must for any comicbook aficionado.

[Gail Simone]

Come to Philadelphia plzkthx. :cool:

I considered it...it could happen!

And I liked your previous post, by the way.

Gail

[Gail Simone]

That's definitely the impression I get and I don't have a bad thing to say about him in person. He handled the thread with elegance and I appreciate his not descending into the usual internet 'hate-baiting'.

To be honest, it made me MORE interested to read his work - even though I know I'm going to hate some of it. But then again, if everyone agreed with my worldview it would be a rather dull place.

Well, yeah, as The Comics Journal blog said, he seems to be quite a lot nicer when he's pimping a new book. But even as recently as a couple weeks ago, he was still starting every message with the loony "15 Impossible Things Before Breakfast" nonsense, and giving marching orders to a follower on how to be a better shill against those rotten women in the Marxist Feminist conspiracy.

Even the most jaded Sim defender notes Dave Sim the guy pimping a book is a world apart from normal Dave Sim.

Gail

[Hawkdevil]

I considered it...it could happen!

And I liked your previous post, by the way.

Gail

It really should! No one ever comes to Philly... :cry:

Thanks! I liked your "debate" (I quote it because a debate has rebuttals...) with Dave Sim!


(And I assume you mean the post where I defended your "attack" on Dave Sim, not the Sebastian Bach/Gilmore Girls posts :lol:.)

[Slewo.O]

What Marvel girls?

You mean editors?

Does Marvel have a lot of women creators right now? I remember hearing about some that had projects in the pipeline (we have some at DC, too) but at both companies, it's still a pretty small handful, unfortunately.

I like to keep up!

Gail

I meant to say Marvel guys typing mistake on my end. The only marvel gals I can think of are Molly Lazer and the editor of Cable and Deadpool.

Sorry about the confusion :\

[Hawkdevil]

Woah! Did anyone else just see me get weak in the knees when Gail Simone told me she liked my post?

What a loser that "Hawkdevil" guy is... :Oops:

[Thommy Melanson]

I meant to say Marvel guys typing mistake on my end. The only marvel gals I can think of are Molly Lazer and the editor of Cable and Deadpool.

Sorry about the confusion :\

In the '70s and '80s, there seemed to be quite a kickass group of women working at Marvel.

Louise Simonson, Adrienne Roy, Wendy Pini, Ann Nocenti, Lynn Varley, Barbara Kesel...

[Ben Weldon]

Truthfully?

I love Phil Spector's work. But he murdered a young woman. Fuck him.

Mel Gibson showed a hateful, vicious and worthless side while DRIVING DRUNK.

Fuck him, too.

It's not that I am TRYING to separate their actions from their art.

It's that I can't HELP it.

Gail

I have that problem too. Intellectually I know I should separate art from artist but sometimes it's just dang hard.
Luckaly Orson Scott Card's Ultimate Iron Man sucks out loud all on its own.

[NickT]

I have that problem too. Intellectually I know I should separate art from artist but sometimes it's just dang hard.
Luckaly Orson Scott Card's Ultimate Iron Man sucks out loud all on its own.
The only person I can think of who I'd probably not read anything by right now would be Micah Wright.

[Brad N.]

The only person I can think of who I'd probably not read anything by right now would be Micah Wright.

Why is that?

[Brad N.]

Also, let me put in a request for Gail to come to Chicago right now. It would be wonderful to finally meet ya in person and that is the only con I'll be at this year.

[Masculine Todd]

Its more than a bad opinion, he actively hates me and my people. I don't support him, and I don't own any of his movies.

It's like putting money in his pocket. It would be like walking up to some skinhead with a swastika tatoo and giving him a 20. I won't do it.

I'm not some over-sensitive PC asshole, I just don't see how you can support someone who is "evil". I don't go around finding out entertainers opinions about stuff, so I can boycott it, but if some dude comes out and says the shit he said, I can't support his work.

Back in the day Sebastain Bach wore a shirt that said "AIDS kills fags dead" and I stopped buying Skid Row records.

Its one thing to feel that way, its another to throw it in my face.

That's commendable.

However, as you know, I too am gay.

I've not read Cerebus in its entirety, but I refuse to deny myself such a classic comic experience because the artist personally "hates me." There must be a clear distinction between art and creator. I abhor Sim's ideological perspective on gays and women, and yes, when I inevitably buy the first issue of Glamourpuss, he is paid royalities for said book and it supports his career, but that is not the rationale behind it. I'm supporting (subjective) quality art.

Ultimately, we've all given our money to creators of various media who share various principals and beliefs that oppose our own. I truly wish I could remember (I'm a junior now, and freshmen Lit Philosophy was two years ago) which philosopher conceived of the theory that art is mutually exclusive from creator and intent, but it is quite true.

Think of an artist (writer, singer, penciler, dancer, actor, ect.) who you know next to nothing about but enjoy their productivity. You enjoy their artistic fruits without knowing anything about them. Their work is truly judged independently from their lifestyle or any themes they intended to convey in their work. It's left to our collective interpretation. Those various creators could very well be sociopaths, but we don't know, nor do we care. We enjoy the art. This is the ideal.

The burden of knowing can weigh hard on our ability to enjoy something. Conversely, despite my disdain for Sim's beliefs, if he writes something thought-provoking and entertaining, regardless of how I feel for him personally, I will be entertained by his product, and I refuse to deprive myself of that enjoyment because I cannot seperate the man from the comic.

[Jonathan Callan]

I have that problem too. Intellectually I know I should separate art from artist but sometimes it's just dang hard.
Luckaly Orson Scott Card's Ultimate Iron Man sucks out loud all on its own.

I disagree with this and think it's a fantastic read but to me Card has always been the real center of this question. His essays on homosexuality are just shockingly, mind-blowingly ignorant but the dude himself is just an insanely talented writer. He even portrays atheists extremely realistically and I've always appreciated it. I think we do have to separate good art from bad politics (to the extent that they can be separated) but I have always felt a little bad about it.

Thankfully, I'm not terribly worried about having to boycott Mr. Gibson because I think he's a terrible director.

[Hennessy]

That was a exchange was really not worth the attention it's garnered.

All I can say is that I'm glad that there'll be another non tights and capes book on the market, with any luck it'll be good. I've not gotten into Sim's work, although I've had the first volume of Cerebus for awhile and failed to get drawn in.

I would love to see a non super book written by Gail Simone. Maybe one day.

[GlassPrison]

Thankfully, I'm not terribly worried about having to boycott Mr. Gibson because I think he's a terrible director.

Say what you want about Mel Gibson, the son of a bitch knows story structure.

[Keith P.]

Not wanting to put your money into the pocket of someone you vigorously disagree with is perfectly legitimate.

For instance, I've never seen Powder or any of the Jeepers Creepers movies.

[S. Earl]

Dave Sim can say whatever the hell he wants, he created and followed through his 300 issues of Cerebus.

And I have never seen this homophobe side of him, examples?

[Lyfeforce]

Dave Sim can say whatever the hell he wants, he created and followed through his 300 issues of Cerebus.

Despite making a large and many times interesting and enjoyable comic series not having anything to do with it, I agree that the man has the right to say anything he wants.

Doesn't mean everyone's gotta like what he says or agree with his views, however.

[Raphael J]

I forgot...

I'm definitely doing the Emerald City con, and a seminar in Florida in March, and Cape in, I think May.

The rest I can't discuss yet, sorry!

Gail

Does the seminar have anything to do with the Megacon show?

[Jonathan Callan]

Say what you want about Mel Gibson, the son of a bitch knows story structure.

Yeah, two hours of beating followed by religious extremism. Right out of "Story" by Robert McKee!

EDIT: Btw, sorry if I came off too sarcastic here. I respect your opinion, I just disagree.

[Gail Simone]

Does the seminar have anything to do with the Megacon show?

I don't think so...it's a University function, I think!

Gail

[Raphael J]

I don't think so...it's a University function, I think!

Gail

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v631/Helmhammerhand/sadwalk.gif

[MACK!]

That would be great!

Actually, this is going to sound weird, but one of the funnest things about the Emerald City Con last year was that I was surrounded almost exclusively by Marvel creators. At most cons, I'm a guest of DC, or I hang with people I know better and work with more often, so that again has me hanging around DC people.

But last year I was right by a ton of Marvel people I really admire, like Bendis and Mack and Oeming and Cho and Brubaker, and a ton of others, and they could NOT have been sweeter or more welcoming. I had a great time, and Taki Soma was there and she's awesome, too. They really made me feel very welcome, and I enjoyed it a lot. Although I had to hit Brian with a rolled up poster. Lots of the Marvel guys did sketches for my son, just to be nice (Taki, too, and man, can she draw), and Brian very kindly gave me a tpb I didn't have.

It was great fun. Whatever else you want to say about the Marvel guys, they were incredibly warm and gracious.

Gail


Gail, it was a delight to meet you there (and also groove with you at CAPE in Dallas. Em City was a blast and looking forward to seeing you there again!

And CAPE too!

[Ethan Van Sciver]

YOU are!


No, I love ya. Dammit.

I guess not ALL threads could be about how Ann Coulter probably smells real nice, I bet.

;)

Gail

No, Gail, I wasn't calling you boring at all. I was agreeing with you and was disappointed at Sim's inability to carry on an interesting conversation with you, or debate you in any way. I mean, obviously Sim has some wacky ideas, but at least they are interesting on their face. And yet...NOTHING worth reading.

Don't misunderstand! I'm "you go, girl"ing you all the way. But the end result sucked.

EVS

[Gail Simone]

No, Gail, I wasn't calling you boring at all. I was agreeing with you and was disappointed at Sim's inability to carry on an interesting conversation with you, or debate you in any way. I mean, obviously Sim has some wacky ideas, but at least they are interesting on their face. And yet...NOTHING worth reading.

Don't misunderstand! I'm "you go, girl"ing you all the way. But the end result sucked.

EVS

I TOTALLY KNOW.

Seriously, I've been criticized a little for the stuff I said afterwards, which was basically me saying, "Holy crap I can't believe THIS is the wall of reason behind his nutball theories" over and over. But I'm still a little dumbfounded by it. The weirdest crackpot on the street could probably do a better and more honest defense of his positions than Dave did.

It's a puzzler.

And it's okay if you think Ann Coulter smells nice. But she's supposed to be a hardcore chain smoker one-night-stand girl so she probably smells like unfiltered Camels. And cigarettes, too.


Gail

[Thommy Melanson]

...And it's okay if you think Ann Coulter smells nice. But she's supposed to be a hardcore chain smoker one-night-stand girl so she probably smells like unfiltered Camels. And cigarettes, too.


Gail

She has a three package a day habit.

[RebootedCorpse]

She has a three package a day habit.

Condoms?

[TIP]

And it's okay if you think Ann Coulter smells nice. But she's supposed to be a hardcore chain smoker one-night-stand girl so she probably smells like unfiltered Camels. And cigarettes, too.


Gail


BWAH-HA-HA-:lol:!!!

[Foolish Mortal]

I TOTALLY KNOW.

Seriously, I've been criticized a little for the stuff I said afterwards, which was basically me saying, "Holy crap I can't believe THIS is the wall of reason behind his nutball theories" over and over. But I'm still a little dumbfounded by it. The weirdest crackpot on the street could probably do a better and more honest defense of his positions than Dave did.

It's a puzzler.

And it's okay if you think Ann Coulter smells nice. But she's supposed to be a hardcore chain smoker one-night-stand girl so she probably smells like unfiltered Camels. And cigarettes, too.


Gail
She probably smells like old fish since she's a member of the Sea Hag race.

[mattbrand]

I TOTALLY KNOW.

Seriously, I've been criticized a little for the stuff I said afterwards, which was basically me saying, "Holy crap I can't believe THIS is the wall of reason behind his nutball theories" over and over. But I'm still a little dumbfounded by it. The weirdest crackpot on the street could probably do a better and more honest defense of his positions than Dave did.

It's a puzzler.

And it's okay if you think Ann Coulter smells nice. But she's supposed to be a hardcore chain smoker one-night-stand girl so she probably smells like unfiltered Camels. And cigarettes, too.


Gail

:rofl:

[Arion]

No, Gail, I wasn't calling you boring at all. I was agreeing with you and was disappointed at Sim's inability to carry on an interesting conversation with you, or debate you in any way. I mean, obviously Sim has some wacky ideas, but at least they are interesting on their face. And yet...NOTHING worth reading.

Don't misunderstand! I'm "you go, girl"ing you all the way. But the end result sucked.

EVS

Have you ever worked with her?

[Ethan Van Sciver]

I TOTALLY KNOW.

Seriously, I've been criticized a little for the stuff I said afterwards, which was basically me saying, "Holy crap I can't believe THIS is the wall of reason behind his nutball theories" over and over. But I'm still a little dumbfounded by it. The weirdest crackpot on the street could probably do a better and more honest defense of his positions than Dave did.

It's a puzzler.

And it's okay if you think Ann Coulter smells nice. But she's supposed to be a hardcore chain smoker one-night-stand girl so she probably smells like unfiltered Camels. And cigarettes, too.


Gail

Look, I disagree with most of what Ann Coulter says, except for the part about Arabs being "towelheads". The rest is bullshit.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

Have you ever worked with her?

Gail? Not yet. One day.

[Gail Simone]

Ann and Ethan sittin' in a tree,
Lov-in' on Joe Mc-Carth-eee!

First comes love, then romance,
Then Ann is wearing Ethan's pants!


Gail

[PeterSparker]

Ann and Ethan sittin' in a tree,
Lovin' on Joe Mc-Carth-eee!

First comes love, then romance,
Then Ann is wearing Ethan's pants!


Gail

Now there's a pitch!

[Thommy Melanson]

Ann and Ethan sittin' in a tree,
Lovin' on Joe Mc-Carth-eee!

First comes love, then romance,
Then Ann is wearing Ethan's pants!


Gail

Ethan's allowed to have more than one wife, y'know.

Move over Sharis The Bunny, here comes Ann The She-Wolf.

[Gail Simone]

Gail, it was a delight to meet you there (and also groove with you at CAPE in Dallas. Em City was a blast and looking forward to seeing you there again!

And CAPE too!

You sir, are awesome. My son has become a huge fan of yours as well, so if it's a bit of a Mack-loving household, I'm afraid.

Thanks for the hospitality, sincerely.

Gail

[Gail Simone]

Gail? Not yet. One day.

That is going to be one great day.

I promise I'll even write something that isn't about boners and hermaphrodites.

Well, 'promise' is a strong word.

Gail

[Ethan Van Sciver]

Ann and Ethan sittin' in a tree,
Lov-in' on Joe Mc-Carth-eee!

First comes love, then romance,
Then Ann is wearing Ethan's pants!


Gail

Now I'm aroused. Ann and I have had sex, Gail. We did it on JFK's grave. We both lit up after with the Eternal Flame. That's conservative romance.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

That is going to be one great day.

I promise I'll even write something that isn't about boners and hermaphrodites.

Well, 'promise' is a strong word.

Gail

WW! (see JLA #20)

[Gail Simone]

WW! (see JLA #20)

Didn't I just say it couldn't be about boners and hermaphrodites?

Gail

[c. page]

Look, I disagree with most of what Ann Coulter says, except for the part about Arabs being "towelheads". The rest is bullshit.

it was the whole "campaigning for hillary if mccain got the nomination" thing, wasn't it?

[MikeCosta]

I read about as much of that thread as I could before I risked my brain exploding. It's sad to me that Dave's words have utterly eclipsed his work... and given that he's the only person ever to write and draw a monthly comic for 25 years and 300 issues, that's pretty fucking ridiculous.

I could give a rats ass what Dave Sim thinks, whether I agree with him or not. Who could possibly care what his opinions are about women, gays, or the price of tea in China? If he doesn't hold a public office or run a church, his personal beliefs are totally immaterial to the world, except maybe as an interesting factoid, like the play Abe Lincoln was seeing when he was shot.

The fact is, the way that Dave matters to the world is through the work he does, and that work is flat-out brilliant. He might be in the top-five most talented, influential and important comic-book creators who've ever lived.

I mean really, if Jack Kirby was a racist, would everyone agree that all discussion of him from now until the end of time be comprised of 90% complaining about his bigotry and 10% mentions that he created the Fantastic Four? It doesn't seem right to me to utterly sideline something so brilliant to focus on something so puerile, useless and sensational.

I just wish there was more discussion of "Cerebus" which I love, and less discussion of Dave's opinions, which no one should really care about.

[Gail Simone]

I read about as much of that thread as I could before I risked my brain exploding. It's sad to me that Dave's words have utterly eclipsed his work... and given that he's the only person ever to write and draw a monthly comic for 25 years and 300 issues, that's pretty fucking ridiculous.

I could give a rats ass what Dave Sim thinks, whether I agree with him or not. Who could possibly care what his opinions are about women, gays, or the price of tea in China? If he doesn't hold a public office or run a church, his personal beliefs are totally immaterial to the world, except maybe as an interesting factoid, like the play Abe Lincoln was seeing when he was shot.

The fact is, the way that Dave matters to the world is through the work he does, and that work is flat-out brilliant. He might be in the top-five most talented, influential and important comic-book creators who've ever lived.

I mean really, if Jack Kirby was a racist, would everyone agree that all discussion of him from now until the end of time be comprised of 90% complaining about his bigotry and 10% mentions that he created the Fantastic Four? It doesn't seem right to me to utterly sideline something so brilliant to focus on something so puerile, useless and sensational.

I just wish there was more discussion of "Cerebus" which I love, and less discussion of Dave's opinions, which no one should really care about.

But we don't always get what we want.

You, however, can read any of the multiple other chats he's doing where he refuses to discuss gender politics.

That's every single one, except one.

Surely one out of the dozens he plans on doing isn't going to ruin your day?


Gail

[Princesa]

Gail brought the fire, thats my hero. A site for women interested in comics...interesting...

[Gail Simone]

There are lots of comics sites that focus on female womenly wommensfolk, but thanks!

Next time he goes there, I would hope some actual TARTS show up.

Gail

[Dave Sim]

Hi. I've been trying to post a "glamourpuss Dave Sim" thread and it doesn't seem to be working, probably because I'm really not very good at this. I've only got about five minutes until I have to leave for my next prayer time. So, I figured I'd jump in here and just mention that there are 100 stores in Canada and 200 in the US that have autographed copies of the Comics Industry Preview Edition of glamourpuss No.1 and that ALL the stores will be getting a copy (unautographed) in their Diamond Dateline package for Feb. 13.

Anyway, I should be back around 12:30 or so EDST.

[TIP]

DAVE!!!

:rock:

[NeverWanderer]

There are lots of comics sites that focus on female womenly wommensfolk, but thanks!

Next time he goes there, I would hope some actual TARTS show up.

Gail

You mean like the strawberry frosted kind? I love those...

[PeterSparker]

*gets popcorn*

[NeverWanderer]

...oboy.



Welcome to the board, Dave!

:flash:

[TIP]

Dave,

When will Secret Project Number One be available for Pre-Order?

T

[Pia Guerra]

Hey Dave, have you been following what's been going down in this thread?

It's pretty interesting.

(In LA, off for some breakfast)

[PeterSparker]

and btw Dave, since you're logged in. If you just click on the 'New Thread' button, then enter the subject in the 'title' line, the content in the big box, and hit 'submit new thread, you should be off and running.

Or stay in here, either way should be entertaining. :)

[Talon T M]

Hi. I've been trying to post a "glamourpuss Dave Sim" thread and it doesn't seem to be working, probably because I'm really not very good at this. I've only got about five minutes until I have to leave for my next prayer time. So, I figured I'd jump in here and just mention that there are 100 stores in Canada and 200 in the US that have autographed copies of the Comics Industry Preview Edition of glamourpuss No.1 and that ALL the stores will be getting a copy (unautographed) in their Diamond Dateline package for Feb. 13.

Anyway, I should be back around 12:30 or so EDST.

Dave, go here:

http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showthread.php?t=141143

[Cth]

Hi. I've been trying to post a "glamourpuss Dave Sim" thread and it doesn't seem to be working, probably because I'm really not very good at this. I've only got about five minutes until I have to leave for my next prayer time. So, I figured I'd jump in here and just mention that there are 100 stores in Canada and 200 in the US that have autographed copies of the Comics Industry Preview Edition of glamourpuss No.1 and that ALL the stores will be getting a copy (unautographed) in their Diamond Dateline package for Feb. 13.

Anyway, I should be back around 12:30 or so EDST.

Follow this link:
http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showthread.php?t=141143

Someone created a thread for it.

Welcome to the board, looking forward to the discussion and book!

[Masculine Todd]

Not wanting to put your money into the pocket of someone you vigorously disagree with is perfectly legitimate.

As is purchasing a great story and judging said story solely by its artistic merit despite vehemently disagreeing with the ideological perceptions of the artist.

Some earlier posts felt as though they were implying that any self-respecting women and gays would not support a book by a creator who held many ignorant views on the gender/sexual orientation. That isn't true. I'm as out-and-proud as anyone, and I still enjoy Cerebus and will check out Glamourpuss.

[Boris the Blade]

I read about as much of that thread as I could before I risked my brain exploding. It's sad to me that Dave's words have utterly eclipsed his work... and given that he's the only person ever to write and draw a monthly comic for 25 years and 300 issues, that's pretty fucking ridiculous.

I could give a rats ass what Dave Sim thinks, whether I agree with him or not. Who could possibly care what his opinions are about women, gays, or the price of tea in China? If he doesn't hold a public office or run a church, his personal beliefs are totally immaterial to the world, except maybe as an interesting factoid, like the play Abe Lincoln was seeing when he was shot.

The fact is, the way that Dave matters to the world is through the work he does, and that work is flat-out brilliant. He might be in the top-five most talented, influential and important comic-book creators who've ever lived.

I mean really, if Jack Kirby was a racist, would everyone agree that all discussion of him from now until the end of time be comprised of 90% complaining about his bigotry and 10% mentions that he created the Fantastic Four? It doesn't seem right to me to utterly sideline something so brilliant to focus on something so puerile, useless and sensational.

I just wish there was more discussion of "Cerebus" which I love, and less discussion of Dave's opinions, which no one should really care about.
Really, it's about the art, not the artist.

Few people know this, but Mozart was actually strongly anti-immigration. THEY TOOK HIS JOB!

[Gail Simone]

As is purchasing a great story and judging said story solely by its artistic merit despite vehemently disagreeing with the ideological perceptions of the artist.

Some earlier posts felt as though they were implying that any self-respecting women and gays would not support a book by a creator who held many ignorant views on the gender/sexual orientation. That isn't true. I'm as out-and-proud as anyone, and I still enjoy Cerebus and will check out Glamourpuss.

I think this portion of the debate is a little silly on both sides, no offense intended to anyone.

I think either choice is perfectly defensible and valid, here. You don't want to support an artist you feel is a bigot, fine. You don't believe the artist's views should stop you from enjoying their work, ALSO fine.

I don't think either side is more morally correct in principle. It's just personal belief, is all.

Gail

[Hawkdevil]

Woah... uh... did Dave Sim just pop in here? Interesting.

[Joe Kalicki]

I don't believe anyone should buy anything for any reason.

[Gail Simone]

I don't believe anyone should buy anything for any reason.

Yes, but remember, you're not real.

Gail

[Joe Kalicki]

Yes, but remember, you're not real.

Gail

I am an imaginary person.

Aren't we all?

[Masculine Todd]

I think this portion of the debate is a little silly on both sides, no offense intended to anyone.

I think either choice is perfectly defensible and valid, here. You don't want to support an artist you feel is a bigot, fine. You don't believe the artist's views should stop you from enjoying their work, ALSO fine.

I don't think either side is more morally correct in principle. It's just personal belief, is all.

Gail

That's assuming I was arguing that the other side was erroneous.

I empathize with Keith for not wanting to support a homophobic creator.

Throughout the duration of reading the Cerebus phonebooks, I found it difficult to continue, knowing the man who wrote it harbors very distorted views on my sexual orientation.

Conversely, it appeared, from earlier posts, that supporting a homophobic creator was not to be done by any self-respecting gay person. I'm a self-respecting gay person and I distinguish art from creator, and there's nothing wrong about doing so. Ideally, art should be separated from creator, and intent means absolutely nothing.

I'm of the mind that both views are perfectly acceptable and valid, and I apologize to anyone who thought I was trying to negate Keith's perspective.

[RebootedCorpse]

DAVE!!!

:rock:

Seconded!

[Bill Nolan]

I am an imaginary person.

Aren't we all?

I ain't buying it... :mistrust:

[Masculine Todd]

I am an imaginary person.

Aren't we all?

No. Only Technofear is real.

[Joe Kalicki]

No. Only Technofear is real.

Oh yes, I remember now.

Wait, does that mean I have to die now?

Existential Crisis (summer, 2009) !

[Dave Sim]

Okay. I'm back. Sincere apologies for my tardiness but the shortcut that I usually take is so slush covered that I had to change my shoes and socks and thought, well that's rather pointless if I just go back the same way.

Anyway, Gail, I hope that you will come up and say hello at Torontocon this year. When you and Nicola Scott were up on stage at the Shuster Awards presenting the award for Best French Language Comic of the Year, I thought, "Maybe I can get Nicola to introduce us."

The previous year, Nicola was sitting with Chester Brown and me (Jill Thompson and her husband were directly in front of us and Heidi Macdonald was a few seats away) at a retailer sponsored Blue Jays game and it was great fun explaining the game to an Aussie. It looked as if the game might get tied in the bottom of the ninth and she said, "What happens if there's a tie?" And I said, "They keep playing until somebody wins. The home side gets the last at bat." "How long do they keep playing?" "Until somebody wins. I think the record is 20 innings or so."

The stricken look on her face still suffering around-the-world jet leg. Fun is fun, but she had been ready to leave three innings ago. The Jays struck out in the bottom of the ninth and she sure looked relieved.

I appreciate your fulsome praise of CEREBUS on SEQUENTIAL TART at the end there. I have to admit that I haven't read any of your work, but you would have to be far more out-of-touch with Comics News than I am to not have heard of the success of BIRDS OF PREY.

R. Smooth dropped by CBR yesterday and I reiterated my choice to limit my discussion of gender issues to SEQUENTIAL TART but since the subject heading of the thread is "Gail Simone vs. Dave Sim" maybe we could find another subject to discuss. What we all ended up discussing at CBR yesterday was cartoony vs. realistic comic-book art. With the Bruce Timm School and the Image School and (far more limited) the Raymond School "duking it out" in mainstream books, do you as a writer have a preference? And, to fine-tune the discussion even further, do you "play" to a specific art style if you know the penciller is going to be More Cartoony or Less Cartoony?

Okay, that was stressful. I had a private message telling me where my thread is. I'm always thinking anything I do is going to delete all of my typing, but here I am and here my message is, so okay. Anyway: I think I'll stick here for a while or possible the rest of the day since I'm now officially three hours late getting started. I'll come back and do the glamourpuss thread tomorrow.

[Cth]

EDIT: nevermind

[Doug]

That's assuming I was arguing that the other side was erroneous.

I empathize with Keith for not wanting to support a homophobic creator.

Throughout the duration of reading the Cerebus phonebooks, I found it difficult to continue, knowing the man who wrote it harbors very distorted views on my sexual orientation.

Conversely, it appeared, from earlier posts, that supporting a homophobic creator was not to be done by any self-respecting gay person. I'm a self-respecting gay person and I distinguish art from creator, and there's nothing wrong about doing so. Ideally, art should be separated from creator, and intent means absolutely nothing.

I'm of the mind that both views are perfectly acceptable and valid, and I apologize to anyone who thought I was trying to negate Keith's perspective.

I completely agree with that. However I sometimes find it difficult to do.

I still haven't see the Pianoist because of Roman Polanski's legal issues, and I don't want to see Jeepers Creepers for Victor Salva's legal issues.

Woody Allen on the other hand is one of my favorite writer/directors, and I will see anything he does.

[mike black]

It looked as if the game might get tied in the bottom of the ninth and she said, "What happens if there's a tie?" And I said, "They keep playing until somebody wins. The home side gets the last at bat." "How long do they keep playing?" "Until somebody wins. I think the record is 20 innings or so."

That would be 33 innings, Dave. Pawtucket Red Sox vs Rochester Red Wings in 1981. Longest MLB game was 21 innings, sometime in the mid 80's.

Also, welcome to the BMB, Dave! Don't let the rowdiness put you off, we really are students of the craft.

[Talon T M]

Okay. I'm back.

Dave, you can go to your glamourpuss Dave Sim thread:

http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showthread.php?t=141143

...or you can stay here and battle Gail. :)



Edited: Ah, ok here today, there tamale.

[mike black]

Dave, you can go to your glamourpuss Dave Sim thread:

http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showthread.php?t=141143

...or you can stay here and battle Gail. :)



Edited: Ah, ok here today, there tamale.

Just don't link him to the weird image thread.

[Doug]

Just don't link him to the weird image thread.

Why, is Dave a Pats fan?

[William Joseph Dunn]

Just don't link him to the weird image thread.


or the one that he can get "Rick rolled" in. :eek:

[mike black]

or the one that he can get "Rick rolled" in. :eek:

He'd never come back, then. :no:

[Dave Sim]

That's assuming I was arguing that the other side was erroneous.


Conversely, it appeared, from earlier posts, that supporting a homophobic creator was not to be done by any self-respecting gay person. I'm a self-respecting gay person and I distinguish art from creator, and there's nothing wrong about doing so. Ideally, art should be separated from creator, and intent means absolutely nothing.



Hi, Todd. I have a lot of trouble defending myself against the homophobe charge since the two gay people I know best in the field -- one retailer, one creator -- who think quite highly of me aren't, to my knowledge, out of the closet and I'm certainly not going to "out" them just for the sake of getting a stain off of my name.

Since Margaret, who goes by cerebusfangirl, is pretty open about being a lesbian, I will bring that up from time to time. The fact that I have given her pretty much carte blanche to use anything of mine on her cerebusfangirl website, that I entrusted her to scan all of the notebooks I used in the production of CEREBUS (soon to be a fully searchable DVD in a store near you!) (soon being a relative term when you're talking about "all volunteer labour"), that I consider her the Official Cerebus Archivist...

Just to give you an idea: having no one to "leave" CEREBUS to and with Gerhard's departure at the beginning of last year, I'm really having tothink about a full-time custodian if I should unexpectedly depart this vale of tears for the Choir Celestial. At the opening of the Graphic Lit exhibit at the Norman Rockwell Museum, I had my first serious discussion with Margaret on the subject (I had already posted it as an idea when I was still doing the Blog & Mail), basically: is there anything in the way of that? If I kick it, can she move from Eastern Mass. to Kitchener and would she?

Her biggest impediment was her student loans which she is paying off a bit at a time.

Hmm, I thought. Student loans. How much can it be?

"$25,000" she said.

"Gee, Maggs, I think I left it in my other suit."

The latest possibility, which I hope to discuss with her at S.P.A.C.E. is to make that part of my will, that part of my life insurance will go to pay off her student loans.

The fact that Margaret is a lesbian really doesn't enter into it. She's the best person for the job [If there are any Yahoos in the crowd, I don't think you'll find an argument], the most interested, the most dedicated and the one who has stuck with it the longest. I would assume if I was a homophobe that the fact that she was a lesbian would rule her out of contention.

Thanks for reading CEREBUS and for all the money you sunk into it. I appreciate it. I hope you'll come out to the "glamourpuss at the Victory Cafe" party April 30. If you'll send me your address, I'll send you a VIP Platinum Access copy of #1 that will get you into the pre-party.

[Dave Sim]

That would be 33 innings, Dave. Pawtucket Red Sox vs Rochester Red Wings in 1981. Longest MLB game was 21 innings, sometime in the mid 80's.

Also, welcome to the BMB, Dave! Don't let the rowdiness put you off, we really are students of the craft.

33 Innings! Nicola would have had a heart attack, I think.:)

[Talon T M]

The fact that Margaret is a lesbian really doesn't enter into it. She's the best person for the job [If there are any Yahoos in the crowd, I don't think you'll find an argument], the most interested, the most dedicated and the one who has stuck with it the longest.

What he said. And speaking of Margaret Liss, that notoriously intelligent Cerebusfangirl has created a website listing and linking to all of Dave's visits (and soon-to-be re-visits) on his internet tour:

http://www.cerebusfangirl.com/artists/100hours/

Thanks, Margaret!

[William Joseph Dunn]

33 Innings! Nicola would have had a heart attack, I think.:)

Nicola got the bad end of that deal. You got to sit with a attractive, talented woman and she got watch a sport which is like watching grass grow.;-)

[Dave Sim]

Actually the discussion about cartoony vs. realistic just started to get really interesting for me yesterday when R. Smooth posted some comments about using photos for reference -- but only as a jumping-off point. There's at least one really good example of that in the just-released Tom Roberts' ALEX RAYMOND HIS LIFE AND ART. Tracing fashion photos as I'm doing with glamourpuss lends itself a bit to that. With literal tracing, most of the models need to have a few pounds taken off their waistlines in order to really look like the Raymond School. I don't like to take too many pounds off, because then you get into that unrealistic body image area. Life's tough enough without creating false ideals (although men in comics usually have the kind of muscles you're only going to get from steroids).

But with the faces, I learned very quickly, there is virtually no room for improvisation. Just the opposite. The eyes and mouth and nostrils are where you have to really bear down and get as EXACT a tracing as you can. There's a difference of literally microns between "sweet" and "eww...what's up with her mouth?"