Wolverine

[MCD]

you know what? That arc with the mob was one of my favorite Wolverine stories ever.

That is all.

[Howlett]

Seconded. Especially that first issue of it. I got tired of the constant stream of Wolverine (the mutant) going up against regular guys who stood no chance whatsoever against him stories we had for a while there, but that arc was just stellar.

[dasNdanger]

I really liked that arc - ummm....something about the jungle..Law of the Jungle? My favorite part was where he's walking out of the 'rub you longtime massage parlor'...lol...wonder who came up with that name, Tieri, or Chen. And that bit with the Punisher at the end... :rofl: Great!

One thing I love about Tieri's writing is that he's one of the few writers who actually DO make me laugh out loud...and on a fairly regular basis. Because of that, I think about one of my favorite Wolverine arcs is the Weapon X one...especially the parts between Logan and Hank (before prison)...just some good stuff there. And I loved the whole prison bit...just something about men in captivity that I find intriguing...

:scared:


das

[Frank Tieri]

you know what? That arc with the mob was one of my favorite Wolverine stories ever.

That is all.

You know what? It's probably my favorite, too. (Close second would be the first arc I ever did on the book-- The Best There Is-- the one where I introduced Mr X. God, I loved that character)

FT

[Frank Tieri]

Seconded. Especially that first issue of it. I got tired of the constant stream of Wolverine (the mutant) going up against regular guys who stood no chance whatsoever against him stories we had for a while there, but that arc was just stellar.

Thanks, Howlett. And you're not alone-- Law of the Jungle is probably the arc of Wolverine I get the most compliments about. I think what people like most about it is that Wolvie needs to use more than just brawn to save the day-- he has to use a little guile to manuver himself out of the situation he finds himself in

That and they loved seeing the Sopranos chopped to pieces :lol:

FT

[Howlett]

Thanks, Howlett. And you're not alone-- Law of the Jungle is probably the arc of Wolverine I get the most compliments about. I think what people like most about it is that Wolvie needs to use more than just brawn to save the day-- he has to use a little guile to manuver himself out of the situation he finds himself in

That and they loved seeing the Sopranos chopped to pieces :lol:

FT

Yeah, I've seen you get a lot of props for that arc. I enjoyed pretty much the whole run from the first issue you were on (though I'll admit, it's been so long now that I forget which issues you didn't write. I know there were a few, with that priest friend of Wolverine's). I don't think the whole run gets enough credit. Some of that stuff was just downright sadistic, which is what I think Wolverine should have more often than not. Hell, one of the first issues you wrote nearly made me physically sick (the flashback to Mr. X putting his puppy in the oven). Wolverine should be dark more often than not.

Seeing him be smart and taking out the mob was damn cool though. Definitely the best of the Wolvie Vs ordinary criminals arcs I can remember offhand. It really was cool to see Wolvie being smart about taking out the bad guys. The assassin in the coffee shop was just hilarious. And Punisher getting an early day from work was pretty damn funny too.

I do wish we'd gotten more Shiver Man though :(

[HobieBrown]

I do wish we'd gotten more Shiver Man though :(

Seconded. Frank´s Wolverine arc is by far my favorite of all time. I´ve enjoyed Weapon X too.

[Howlett]

Seconded. Frank´s Wolverine arc is by far my favorite of all time. I´ve enjoyed Weapon X too.

Good, that's two of us.

Mr. Tieri... Shiver Man series for Marvel MAX! Please? PLEASE??? :Please: <--- (c'mon, could you say no to that face?)

[HobieBrown]

Good, that's two of us.

Mr. Tieri... Shiver Man series for Marvel MAX! Please? PLEASE??? :Please: <--- (c'mon, could you say no to that face?)

I like how you think. :)

[ClintP]

I need to go back and re-read those issues, but I remember really liking them. Wasn't the artist for a lot of Tieri's issues Sean Chen? If so, those are defiantly my favorite issues. I was sad to see the first volume end and start over. I remember being really pissed actually.

[dasNdanger]

I need to go back and re-read those issues, but I remember really liking them. Wasn't the artist for a lot of Tieri's issues Sean Chen? If so, those are defiantly my favorite issues. I was sad to see the first volume end and start over. I remember being really pissed actually.

Yeah, Chen did most of the art during Tieri's run, as I recall. Good work, though he made Wolverine a bit too handsome for my tastes....but I'm probably in the minority there.

das

[Frank Tieri]

Good, that's two of us.

Mr. Tieri... Shiver Man series for Marvel MAX! Please? PLEASE??? :Please: <--- (c'mon, could you say no to that face?)

Ha! Shiver man. Outside of Mr. X, he's probably the character I get most asked about bringing back.

Here's the thing with Shiver man: Mike Marts and me had an idea for a mini a while back that would tell Shivy's origin but Marvel didn't bite at the time because a) it was essentially a western and at the time, Marvel just wasn't doing those b) he's sort of an obscure character and c) it's violent and disturbing as all Hell.

But who knows? If enough of you guys bug... hmm, I don't know, let's say AXEL ALONSO... maybe Marvel will reconsider after all this time

FT

[Frank Tieri]

I need to go back and re-read those issues, but I remember really liking them. Wasn't the artist for a lot of Tieri's issues Sean Chen? If so, those are defiantly my favorite issues. I was sad to see the first volume end and start over. I remember being really pissed actually.

Yep, Sean was my artist throughout my entire run, I do believe (with the exception of a Dan Fraga fill in, if memory serves)

And by now you probably realize it was pointless to be pissed about restarting the book. They restart fucking everything now

FT

[Howlett]

Ha! Shiver man. Outside of Mr. X, he's probably the character I get most asked about bringing back.

Here's the thing with Shiver man: Mike Marts and me had an idea for a mini a while back that would tell Shivy's origin but Marvel didn't bite at the time because a) it was essentially a western and at the time, Marvel just wasn't doing those b) he's sort of an obscure character and c) it's violent and disturbing as all Hell.

But who knows? If enough of you guys bug... hmm, I don't know, let's say AXEL ALONSO... maybe Marvel will reconsider after all this time

FT
Can't say I'm surprised people wanted to see them return. At that time at Marvel, there weren't that many new characters showing up, and the ones that did were pretty bloody forgetful. I wasn't as big a fan of Mr. X as others were, though I did like him. I did like his back up team though.

Shame that Shiver Man origin didn't get picked up. I'd have loved to have seen that. I'm not a huge fan of westerns myself, but I'd have gotten that for sure. Hopefully he'll resurface someday so we can get more stories about him from you :D

Also... *takes note* Bug... Axel... Alonso... got it :cool:

[ChastMastr]

And I loved the whole prison bit...just something about men in captivity that I find intriguing...

:scared:

Me too, actually... :Oops: :twisted: :lol: Got to read this arc! Still gathering issues...

David

[ChastMastr]

But who knows? If enough of you guys bug... hmm, I don't know, let's say AXEL ALONSO... maybe Marvel will reconsider after all this time


Bug or beg? Or both?

David

[Arion]

Yeah, Chen did most of the art during Tieri's run, as I recall. Good work, though he made Wolverine a bit too handsome for my tastes....but I'm probably in the minority there.

das

But Chen is still a good artist.

[dasNdanger]

Me too, actually... :Oops: :twisted: :lol:

:lol: (perv!) :D

Got to read this arc! Still gathering issues...

David

It's a good one - very enjoyable read.

But Chen is still a good artist.

Oh, yes! Yes - very good artist. And I really didn't mind Wolverine being handsome...it's just that I prefer him not as good-looking because I like the contrast between the 'ugly' exterior (short, hairy, average looks), and the whole heart of gold thing he's got going on.

But yeah, Chen is a good artist - not trying to take that away from him.

das

[ChastMastr]

:lol: (perv!) :D

:lol: As Scar said in The Lion King, you have no idea... :lol:

I like the contrast between the 'ugly' exterior (short, hairy, average looks), and the whole heart of gold thing he's got going on.

Ironically, while I do love the contrast absolutely and consider the heart of gold aspect most important, I find Logan more physically attractive that way too. (This may make me a tad unusual... just a skosh! ;)) But seriously, I think the tough, beefy, short/squat, hairy/feral appearance is far hotter than, say, Hugh Jackman playing Logan, and certainly more than the stereotypical bishonen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishōnen) type (which, God help us, they're going to draw him as in the upcoming Wolverine manga one-shot (http://anime.ign.com/articles/840/840435p1.html). No, no, no, he should at least look more like the lead from Lone Wolf and Cub (http://www.8weekly.nl/images/art/lonewolf01.jpg), or better still more like Mister -- the older guy -- from Coyote Ragtime (http://otakuism.animeblogger.net/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/crscover.jpg) -- though still that's not quite as good as Darick Robertson (http://www.marvel.com/comics/onsale/covers/WOLV012_0304.jpg) could (http://www.marvel.com/comics/onsale/covers/uploaded/Wolverine_14image_big.jpg) be (http://www.marvel.com/comics/onsale/covers/0804/WOLV018_fnlCOV.jpg)...

I remember when he was doing the book, there was a page in which Logan was standing talking with Kurt, and Darick was drawing Logan with the proportions he was supposed to have, but they wanted him taller and almost the same height as Kurt, so they made him redraw the page, which is a shame because he'd gone to all that trouble to research short bodybuilders and the like to work out what the right proportions and things should be for a beefy li'l dude of, what, 5'4", 5'6" or so (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=1483). Whoops, 5'3". This was the sort of look he was trying to aim for in the book... (http://www.newsarama.com/Marvel/Robertson_collage.jpg) Loved that! :)

David

[dasNdanger]

:lol: As Scar said in The Lion King, you have no idea... :lol:

Uh...oh. :scared:

;-)


Ironically, while I do love the contrast absolutely and consider the heart of gold aspect most important, I find Logan more physically attractive that way too. (This may make me a tad unusual... just a skosh! ;)) But seriously, I think the tough, beefy, short/squat, hairy/feral appearance is far hotter than, say, Hugh Jackman playing Logan, and certainly more than the stereotypical bishonen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishōnen) type (which, God help us, they're going to draw him as in the upcoming Wolverine manga one-shot (http://anime.ign.com/articles/840/840435p1.html).

Weeeeellll...I like both. Wolverine/Logan - short, hairy, tough - is attractive to me because you can just smell the testosterone coming off the comic book pages! :lol: Something very sexy about the little guy. In fact, I was never a fan of body hair until I started reading Wolverine comics - lol...now I think even hairy backs are sexy!! :p

But I also like the 'bishonen' type - like the guy in my avatar. YOU might not think he's beautiful, but I do...something very sexy about that sort of beauty, too. Like this picture (of the character in my avatar) just melts me:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v54/dasNdanger/steve1.jpg

Simply beautiful in my eyes. But so is Wolverine. I think they just affect me in different ways. The alien guy has an ethereal beauty about him...while Wolverine is ALL man, and it's that masculinity that's so attractive.

No, no, no, he should at least look more like the lead from Lone Wolf and Cub (http://www.8weekly.nl/images/art/lonewolf01.jpg), or better still more like Mister -- the older guy -- from Coyote Ragtime (http://otakuism.animeblogger.net/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/crscover.jpg) -- though still that's not quite as good as Darick Robertson (http://www.marvel.com/comics/onsale/covers/WOLV012_0304.jpg) could (http://www.marvel.com/comics/onsale/covers/uploaded/Wolverine_14image_big.jpg) be (http://www.marvel.com/comics/onsale/covers/0804/WOLV018_fnlCOV.jpg)...

I remember when he was doing the book, there was a page in which Logan was standing talking with Kurt, and Darick was drawing Logan with the proportions he was supposed to have, but they wanted him taller and almost the same height as Kurt, so they made him redraw the page, which is a shame because he'd gone to all that trouble to research short bodybuilders and the like to work out what the right proportions and things should be for a beefy li'l dude of, what, 5'4", 5'6" or so (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=1483). Whoops, 5'3". This was the sort of look he was trying to aim for in the book... (http://www.newsarama.com/Marvel/Robertson_collage.jpg) Loved that! :)

David

Darick's work is fantastic. GREAT Wolverine - one of my favorite takes on the guy ever. He did an excellent job, and would love to see him back on a Wolverine book. Such grittiness in his work. And a bit of humor - loved how he had Wolvie scratching his butt early on in The Brotherhood arc - laughed my own ass off at that one!

So, yeah - I'm on the same page as you with DR - and with Wolverine. Oh - funny thing about Wolverine's height - in that Hulk #180/181, it says Wolverine is 5'5" - somewhere along the line he's lost two inches. Must be the weight of the adamantium pulling him down. lol.

das

[ChastMastr]

Uh...oh. :scared:

;-)


LOL! Fear not, I believe in safe, sane and consensual...

Weeeeellll...I like both. Wolverine/Logan - short, hairy, tough - is attractive to me because you can just smell the testosterone coming off the comic book pages! :lol: Something very sexy about the little guy. In fact, I was never a fan of body hair until I started reading Wolverine comics - lol...now I think even hairy backs are sexy!! :p

I have for some time myself. But also about Logan I really like the whole animal aspect of being human combined with the whole moral/spiritual aspect, and of positive masculinity in general. There's something very archetypal going on there with him, and beyond the sort of "Western loner" archetype -- more something in the tradition of Beowulf, if you see what I mean. But also in his dealing with his own animal nature (not only the violent rage aspect; I mean his being comfortable in his own skin, using his own senses, being able to "read" both people and animals' body language and pheromones, etc.), as well as with nature in general, he's got the "noble savage" thing going but on a more primal level than, say, Tarzan. And of course since in my own metaphysics human beings are "rational animals" then in some ways he's kind of an archetypal human, which is really fairly cool.

But I also like the 'bishonen' type - like the guy in my avatar. YOU might not think he's beautiful, but I do...something very sexy about that sort of beauty, too. Like this picture (of the character in my avatar) just melts me:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v54/dasNdanger/steve1.jpg

Simply beautiful in my eyes. But so is Wolverine. I think they just affect me in different ways. The alien guy has an ethereal beauty about him...while Wolverine is ALL man, and it's that masculinity that's so attractive.


Absolutely! Definitely a fan of masculinity -- I loved Bly's Iron John, but that's a long story. No idea where the other character comes from myself -- it looks live-action so I am guessing some sort of film or TV show?

Darick's work is fantastic. GREAT Wolverine - one of my favorite takes on the guy ever. He did an excellent job, and would love to see him back on a Wolverine book. Such grittiness in his work. And a bit of humor - loved how he had Wolvie scratching his butt early on in The Brotherhood arc - laughed my own ass off at that one!
Someday! Someday he will be back...

So, yeah - I'm on the same page as you with DR - and with Wolverine. Oh - funny thing about Wolverine's height - in that Hulk #180/181, it says Wolverine is 5'5" - somewhere along the line he's lost two inches. Must be the weight of the adamantium pulling him down. lol.

Possibly! But in any case not 6'2" etc. LOL!

David

[Arion]

:lol: (perv!) :D

Oh, yes! Yes - very good artist. And I really didn't mind Wolverine being handsome...it's just that I prefer him not as good-looking because I like the contrast between the 'ugly' exterior (short, hairy, average looks), and the whole heart of gold thing he's got going on.

But yeah, Chen is a good artist - not trying to take that away from him.

das

I get your point .

[ChastMastr]

And (as I am gradually accumulating Frank's back issues) I like Logan by Chen, too, myself -- I think Logan's roughness is still there in his art. He still doesn't look like, say, Hugh Jackman there.

[Arion]

And (as I am gradually accumulating Frank's back issues) I like Logan by Chen, too, myself -- I think Logan's roughness is still there in his art. He still doesn't look like, say, Hugh Jackman there.

I'm still in the process of getting back issues .

[ChastMastr]

Oh, same here! It's taking annoyingly long -- as I am buying to read (and re-read and re-read and re-read), not just collect, I'm looking for them in cheap but readable condition, rather than spending vast sums of cash to put them in lucite or something. So it's catch as catch can... Alas, if I'd had none at all, I'd be able to get all of them on eBay as a package deal at a quite reasonable price, but since I'm only missing so many of them now, that price is way too high for the number I actually need, if that makes any sense.

David

[dasNdanger]

I have for some time myself. But also about Logan I really like the whole animal aspect of being human combined with the whole moral/spiritual aspect, and of positive masculinity in general. There's something very archetypal going on there with him, and beyond the sort of "Western loner" archetype -- more something in the tradition of Beowulf, if you see what I mean. But also in his dealing with his own animal nature (not only the violent rage aspect; I mean his being comfortable in his own skin, using his own senses, being able to "read" both people and animals' body language and pheromones, etc.), as well as with nature in general, he's got the "noble savage" thing going but on a more primal level than, say, Tarzan. And of course since in my own metaphysics human beings are "rational animals" then in some ways he's kind of an archetypal human, which is really fairly cool.

Totally agree. (Gotta say, it's nice to finally find a Wolverine fan here willing to actually talk about the character - the depth and development of the character - and analyze the hell out of him! It's what I've been looking for - just gotta get back into my 'Wolverine' brain, and out of the stuff I'm currently into...)

I'm not sure what attracts me to this sort of character (the guys in my sig/avatar are similar - yet very different - will get into that later and make comparisons). I have read so many excellent Wolverine stories where he's fighting the animal inside - or embracing it (depending) - and so it's hard to single out one story. I will single out Origin, however. Something about that story just hit me - and hit me hard. I think it's seeing the boy turn into the animal, and the boy not being able to handle what he's becoming. The hunting scenes (where Rose is bathing, and the second one where she is reading) are excellent, but there is another one that affects me even more...

the scene where Logan is looking out the window, and Rose writes, "There's a dreadful creature inside that boy, just waiting to show its face to the world."

Something about that moment really affected me - perhaps it's because I understand that whole feeling of being detached from the people around me - not belonging to them, but belonging to something else. In my case I've always been a bit of a loner, very much wrapped up in the thoughts in my head (daydreamer!). Whatever it was, it made me feel what the character must be feeling (if he was real and all of that, of course)...the conflict within - pulled two different directions, and longing for the one that's the least acceptable of the two. Logan there reminded me of the dog that watches, day after day, the neighbor kids playing in the yard. Just watching. Never barking. Never snarling. Just watching...until one day he leaps unprovoked over the fence and mauls one to death.

You really don't know what went on in that dog's head before he attacked. A dog acts on instinct...but Wolverine's inner animal is buffered by his humanity. Still, sometimes the instinct wins over, and he attacks. We sometimes see this in his 'berserker' rage, but what about those early years in Madripoor (1920s-30s), when bar-brawling was his way of life? That wasn't berserker - that was just a beast of a man looking for a release. The anger inside - the frustration - it all has to come out eventually.

He wasn't comfortable with himself back then. He didn't understand his mutant nature. He didn't understand the reasons for his heightened senses. He was in a constant state of denial, refusing to accept what he was. In some of the stories dealing with his early years, I was always under the impression that he was a much worse person than he is now.

I made a thread here a while ago (Bendis forum) about Weapon X actually saving Logan. When you read Barry Windsor-Smith's Weapon X...especially those first few pages...you realize what a mess Logan was at that point: abusing alcohol and drugs to the point of puking in the john, and wallowing in despair. He had a violent disregard towards others. He was at the lowest point, perhaps. Then Weapon X stripped it all away - stripped away the man he was, and gave him a new slate, so to speak. The animal (his basic nature) emerged first, but then - slowly - so did the human being. But it was a changed human being - he was now someone who could HOPE. Ever since Weapon X, it seems, Wolverine has been motivated by hope - a hope that things CAN be better, and that he can play a part in making them better. Weapon X was the turning point in his life, and - despite the horrors of it - it's probably the very thing that saved him.

Absolutely! Definitely a fan of masculinity -- I loved Bly's Iron John, but that's a long story. No idea where the other character comes from myself -- it looks live-action so I am guessing some sort of film or TV show?

Yeah - they're from Stargate Atlantis. Space aliens called Wraith. In some ways they are similar to Wolverine.

1. They heal (when well-fed - they can be killed, however...healing doesn't always save them).

2. They are evolved from bugs (iratus bug) that absorbed human DNA, and are therefore more closely related to their life-sucking, insect ancestors than humans. Here is where we get the whole animal/human conflict. This means that though they have a humanoid appearance (and try to be 'refined'), they are still driven by instinct. In their case, it is the instinct to feed in order to survive - but the problem is the only thing that will sustain them is human life force. They have no choice in the matter - either they feed, or they will die. Hunger 'burns inside of them', as one once said (could this be like the animal 'burning' inside of Wolverine?). So...even though they are the bad guys, I feel great sympathy towards their situation and do not see them as evil. And, when they must interact with their 'food' (humans), we get to see the whole human/animal struggle within them. It also greatly affects the way humans see them, as well...much like Wolverine is judged negatively for what he is, even by his allies.

3. Death is in their hands - Wolverine has his claws, and the Wraith feed through their hand (much like Marvel's Bloodsream/Bloodsport - I think those where his names).

Here is a great example of the Wraith - this is one character they haven't killed off yet (usually the Wraith are killed within the first episode they appear - bad guys, and all of that). Wraith don't tell their names, so the Stargate people named him Todd :rolleyes: - he's the same character in my sig, and his facial markings are an homage to Ace Frehley of KISS, who is supposedly a fan. These clips are from the same episode in which the character was introduced. Here you see the damage he can take, the feeding, and most importantly, how he reflects both his animal and human natures. These scenes totally remind me of Wolverine going from berserker rage, to human composure:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ht0FiLw2eFE

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gtVLs4VnkD4

Possibly! But in any case not 6'2" etc. LOL!

David

:lol:


das

[ChastMastr]

Aha, cool! :)

I sometimes get the impression (and of course this depends on the writer) that in some ways it is not (strictly speaking) the "animal" side of Logan which is the side to be suppressed -- that the whole rage thing is actually more the dark side of being human. But of course part of this turns on notions of animal behavior and our changing understanding of it -- like the whole stereotype of bloodthirsty, ravening wolves vs. the more current, deeper understanding of what wolves are really like, the complex nature of pack relationships and so forth, if you see what I mean. And of course we've always seen the whole contrast of Logan approaching the deer to sneak up and just touch it rather than kill it vs. the (admittedly stereotypical) band of beer-swilling hunters. (I wonder how many times we've seen the "Logan approaches deer in forest" scene? I know at least two though I'd have to go look for them.)

I'm also thinking of the scene in Uncanny X-Men 140 (... okay, is it troubling that I know which issue from memory?) in which he has to talk Snowbird down from reverting to feral wolverine state after she's shape-changed into one and is in danger of losing her sapient consciousness to the animal body's forever... he had to draw, I think, not only on his humanity but his connection to his own animal side. But of course to say human=bad, animal=good is just as simplistic as the reverse; Logan is a fascinating field to explore those issues in, certainly...

(I hope I haven't made poor Frank run screaming from the forum. I fear I killed a whole bunch of other threads here... :cry:)

David

[dasNdanger]

Aha, cool! :)

I sometimes get the impression (and of course this depends on the writer) that in some ways it is not (strictly speaking) the "animal" side of Logan which is the side to be suppressed -- that the whole rage thing is actually more the dark side of being human. But of course part of this turns on notions of animal behavior and our changing understanding of it -- like the whole stereotype of bloodthirsty, ravening wolves vs. the more current, deeper understanding of what wolves are really like, the complex nature of pack relationships and so forth, if you see what I mean. And of course we've always seen the whole contrast of Logan approaching the deer to sneak up and just touch it rather than kill it vs. the (admittedly stereotypical) band of beer-swilling hunters. (I wonder how many times we've seen the "Logan approaches deer in forest" scene? I know at least two though I'd have to go look for them.)

I'm also thinking of the scene in Uncanny X-Men 140 (... okay, is it troubling that I know which issue from memory?) in which he has to talk Snowbird down from reverting to feral wolverine state after she's shape-changed into one and is in danger of losing her sapient consciousness to the animal body's forever... he had to draw, I think, not only on his humanity but his connection to his own animal side. But of course to say human=bad, animal=good is just as simplistic as the reverse; Logan is a fascinating field to explore those issues in, certainly...

(I hope I haven't made poor Frank run screaming from the forum. I fear I killed a whole bunch of other threads here... :cry:)

David

First - don't worry about Frank. I'm sure it's hard for a creator to keep up with forum discussions, and produce decent work in the time they have. When I'm trying to be creative, the forums actually suck my brain out, and I have to stay away from them or I get a terrible block.

Anyway - I remember that issue of which you speak - read it not long ago. I haven't read too many Uncanny issues, or X-Men in general, except bits and pieces here and there. Mostly I've read about half of Wolverine's solo books to date. Still have a lot of the second volume to get through - read the beginning and end, just got to tackle the middle.

And yeah - I think the animal side = the darker side of human nature, which is more animalistic in nature. In the beginning, I think the writers did equate Wolverine's animal side with darker human nature, but since Origin...not so sure. In Origin we learn that he IS an animal (per se) - claws from childhood, the instincts of a wolf - the whole call-of-the-wild thing he has going on. That changes him a bit.

Which brings me to Loeb's recent arc, and the Lupine thing. I know a LOT of fans are furious over this concept - that Wolverine evolved along the same line as wolves, instead of taking the route of the rest of mankind. In some ways I understand their outrage (What!?! He's not a MUTANT??!) - but I also see the possibilities.

First, Loeb never said this was Wolverine mythos FACT. He also never said that Wolverine wasn't a mutant. Just that - perhaps - his lineage came through a different route, the same one as dogs and wolves. Now...imagine what this could do to Wolverine's head (if someone decided to run with it)...

All of his life he's been insisting that he is a 'Man'! His proclamation of "I'm NOT an animal!" has brought him back to his humanity on more than one occasion. So, what if now he must face the fact that he IS an animal - that he is closer related to wolves than to his fellow homo sapien-evolved mutants? Could that make him bitter? OR, could it make him more accepting of what he is (which could also open the way for him to become more like Sabretooth, which I don't want to see happen). Already in Origins (Way's run) he's acknowledged that he's an animal, so will be interesting to see if other writers pick up on this and show him as more accepting of his animalistic nature, or if he'll continue to fight it as he has in the past.

das

[ChastMastr]

And yeah - I think the animal side = the darker side of human nature, which is more animalistic in nature.

Oh, I don't believe that in real life it works that way at all actually. Not that our animal aspects are morally pure per se, just that I don't see our darker side as being more animal -- I think some writers have written Logan that way, but again our general popular understanding of, say, the real nature of wolves, has grown a great deal even in the last few decades.

Which brings me to Loeb's recent arc, and the Lupine thing. I know a LOT of fans are furious over this concept - that Wolverine evolved along the same line as wolves, instead of taking the route of the rest of mankind. In some ways I understand their outrage (What!?! He's not a MUTANT??!) - but I also see the possibilities.


My gripe with that, apart from yet another Logan retcon, is that it just makes no sense evolutionarily on a really basic level. The kind of being you'd get from an evolved canid would not be the same thing as an evolved simian. As well -- Logan wasn't raised by a hidden tribe of wolf people isolated in the Andes somewhere. Everyone in his community -- heck, if the wolf-people go back as far as they supposedly do, pretty much innumerable people all over the world -- would have the same kind of ancestry in there somewhere. This is basic genetic stuff. (And oh, man, dragging not only a bunch of other feral characters, but specifically Sasquatch in there -- who specifically got his powers and shape not from any kind of mutant or lupine ancestry, but from a magical being called Tanaraq -- I'm sorry but Loeb just didn't do his Marvel homework on this one. It's like "Hey! He's furry! He'll do!")

All of his life he's been insisting that he is a 'Man'! His proclamation of "I'm NOT an animal!" has brought him back to his humanity on more than one occasion. So, what if now he must face the fact that he IS an animal - that he is closer related to wolves than to his fellow homo sapien-evolved mutants?

Er... but then, so what? Because homo-sapien-evolved-mutants are also evolved from animals, just a different animal. Primates are animals just as much as canids are. It makes little sense to assume that this would make Logan a different person any more than knowing about my own primate ancestry inclines me to fling feces at aggressors. (Which may be a chimp-specific thing, admittedly, but still.)

And of course it's really startlingly silly given the huge, huge number of beings who would know what Logan is that he's met over time. Heck, he was the representative of humanity once in an X-Men annual (the one with the cosmic crystal that tests various races throughout the universe), but he's encountered a whole bunch of beings like, say, the High Evolutionary and Apocalypse and the like, he's been messed with genetically by beings who would notice him not really being the same kind of critter as the other mutants they'd encountered, etc.

Could that make him bitter? OR, could it make him more accepting of what he is (which could also open the way for him to become more like Sabretooth, which I don't want to see happen).


See, the thing is, Sabretooth wasn't really more animal-like in a genuine sense at all. Real animals aren't generally much like human serial killers. So I think on that front Logan would be safe. :)

Already in Origins (Way's run) he's acknowledged that he's an animal, so will be interesting to see if other writers pick up on this and show him as more accepting of his animalistic nature, or if he'll continue to fight it as he has in the past.

Happily, I'm avoiding both the regular series and Origins until the writers change. :)

David

[dasNdanger]

Oh, I don't believe that in real life it works that way at all actually. Not that our animal aspects are morally pure per se, just that I don't see our darker side as being more animal -- I think some writers have written Logan that way, but again our general popular understanding of, say, the real nature of wolves, has grown a great deal even in the last few decades.

I think the idea of darker side = animal nature has some merit. An animal is driven by instinct, they're not thinking about the moral or ethical issues, nor are they expected to. They are guided by their nature. But humans are supposed to be different - we are supposed to know the difference between right and wrong. So, when a person ignores basic human morality - when he's void of feeling and empathy (sociopath, for instance) - his whole being becomes darker - and it often opens the door for terrible things.

That does NOT mean that an animal is evil - quite the contrary. Like I said, an animal is acting on instinct and can't make moral choices. But when a person chooses to put aside morality and hurt others without thought or care, then he has - in effect - become like the animal who has no moral code. And it is certainly the darker side of human nature that allows a person to do that...it's not the bright and cheery side. :)

My gripe with that, apart from yet another Logan retcon, is that it just makes no sense evolutionarily on a really basic level. The kind of being you'd get from an evolved canid would not be the same thing as an evolved simian. As well -- Logan wasn't raised by a hidden tribe of wolf people isolated in the Andes somewhere. Everyone in his community -- heck, if the wolf-people go back as far as they supposedly do, pretty much innumerable people all over the world -- would have the same kind of ancestry in there somewhere. This is basic genetic stuff. (And oh, man, dragging not only a bunch of other feral characters, but specifically Sasquatch in there -- who specifically got his powers and shape not from any kind of mutant or lupine ancestry, but from a magical being called Tanaraq -- I'm sorry but Loeb just didn't do his Marvel homework on this one. It's like "Hey! He's furry! He'll do!")

Er... but then, so what? Because homo-sapien-evolved-mutants are also evolved from animals, just a different animal. Primates are animals just as much as canids are. It makes little sense to assume that this would make Logan a different person any more than knowing about my own primate ancestry inclines me to fling feces at aggressors. (Which may be a chimp-specific thing, admittedly, but still.)

I see what you're saying. I really don't pay much mind to comic book psuedo-science, otherwise, I wouldn't enjoy anything I read. The idea that I got was that Logan was closer to wolves than humans to apes. (of course, this is if you even believe in evolution...) It seemed, to me, that Logan's 'visions' had his line closer to wolves long after humans would have evolved to their present state. But...I don't know. It was a dream, Logan didn't know if it was real or not, and Black Panther never said it was true. I think it was an idea thrown out there, and left wide open to see how fans reacted.

See, the thing is, Sabretooth wasn't really more animal-like in a genuine sense at all. Real animals aren't generally much like human serial killers. So I think on that front Logan would be safe. :)

Well, depends on the animal you are talking about. Animals must eat to survive. To a gazelle, a lion is a 'serial killer', simply because that gazelle is on the menu, day after day. The animal analogy applies to the joy of the hunt, and the kill. Animals enjoy this - I know, I have cats who just love to play with mice. It's fun and exciting to them. Sabretooth was the same - the hunt and the kill excited him. But it never excited Logan in the same way...he'd question his actions afterwards, even when he knew he was right. So, in that way - if Logan stopped questioning his actions - if he actually started to enjoy the kill - then he would become like Sabretooth, who, in turn, was like the lion biting into the haunches of a fleeing gazelle.

Happily, I'm avoiding both the regular series and Origins until the writers change. :)

David

new guy Aaron is on Wolverine - very good so far!


das

[ChastMastr]

I think the idea of darker side = animal nature has some merit. An animal is driven by instinct, they're not thinking about the moral or ethical issues, nor are they expected to. They are guided by their nature. But humans are supposed to be different - we are supposed to know the difference between right and wrong. So, when a person ignores basic human morality - when he's void of feeling and empathy (sociopath, for instance) - his whole being becomes darker - and it often opens the door for terrible things.

Ah, but I see the dark side of human spiritual nature as much worse than the dark side of human animal nature...

That does NOT mean that an animal is evil - quite the contrary. Like I said, an animal is acting on instinct and can't make moral choices.

I am not sure they don't make moral choices... ;) the question of animal spirituality and such...

I see what you're saying. I really don't pay much mind to comic book psuedo-science, otherwise, I wouldn't enjoy anything I read. The idea that I got was that Logan was closer to wolves than humans to apes. (of course, this is if you even believe in evolution...)

Don't most people?

It seemed, to me, that Logan's 'visions' had his line closer to wolves long after humans would have evolved to their present state. But...I don't know. It was a dream, Logan didn't know if it was real or not, and Black Panther never said it was true. I think it was an idea thrown out there, and left wide open to see how fans reacted.

True. I do think two retcons so close together (Azrael) and in the midst of a host of others (Origins in general) make it more of a mess than it might otherwise be.

new guy Aaron is on Wolverine - very good so far!

I'm not a fan of Aaron's Wolverine work, alas. (http://forum.newsarama.com/showpost.php?p=5024833&postcount=35) But I'm on sabbatical from arguing about Marvel's current direction (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?p=6278121), so those links are all you get on that from me for now. ;)

David

[Arion]

Oh, same here! It's taking annoyingly long -- as I am buying to read (and re-read and re-read and re-read), not just collect, I'm looking for them in cheap but readable condition, rather than spending vast sums of cash to put them in lucite or something. So it's catch as catch can... Alas, if I'd had none at all, I'd be able to get all of them on eBay as a package deal at a quite reasonable price, but since I'm only missing so many of them now, that price is way too high for the number I actually need, if that makes any sense.

David

I usually buy most of my comics online. Not eBay, though.

[ChastMastr]

I go pretty much for whichever is cheaper. In some cases there will be a lot where you get, say, issues 1-5, 7, 9, 12, 15-20 or something, and I may have some of those but not all -- in that case, if I'm missing like half the issues for sale, I come up with what the issues I am missing would be worth to me and only bid that high. But sometimes Mile High or whoever is having a sale, too...

David

[Arion]

I go pretty much for whichever is cheaper. In some cases there will be a lot where you get, say, issues 1-5, 7, 9, 12, 15-20 or something, and I may have some of those but not all -- in that case, if I'm missing like half the issues for sale, I come up with what the issues I am missing would be worth to me and only bid that high. But sometimes Mile High or whoever is having a sale, too...

David

I usually buy comics in Mycomicshop.com or Midtowcomics. And, of course, DCBS. I'm always looking for discounts.

[ChastMastr]

DCBS? What is DCBS? :)

David

[Arion]

DCBS? What is DCBS? :)

David

Discount Comic Book Service. Or www.dcbservice.com

[Storme]

What is the arc with the tournament in Madripoor? This is where i became a Tieri fan! I have read about everything he's written since then, so it definitly made its mark. My brother and his friends liked it too, and they are the younger set, so crossed over well. I know the BloodSport idea is used alot in comics. However it was about time someone used it in Marvel's Universe. I like to think Iron Fist new arc is the spiritual benefactor of that Wolverine arc!

[Howlett]

What is the arc with the tournament in Madripoor? This is where i became a Tieri fan! I have read about everything he's written since then, so it definitly made its mark. My brother and his friends liked it too, and they are the younger set, so crossed over well. I know the BloodSport idea is used alot in comics. However it was about time someone used it in Marvel's Universe. I like to think Iron Fist new arc is the spiritual benefactor of that Wolverine arc!

I think the arc was called Bloodsport. 167 to 169, if I remember correctly. Damn good arc, though it's been a while since I've read it.

[Frank Tieri]

What is the arc with the tournament in Madripoor? This is where i became a Tieri fan! I have read about everything he's written since then, so it definitly made its mark. My brother and his friends liked it too, and they are the younger set, so crossed over well. I know the BloodSport idea is used alot in comics. However it was about time someone used it in Marvel's Universe. I like to think Iron Fist new arc is the spiritual benefactor of that Wolverine arc!

Glad you liked the Bloodsport arc, dude-- though I wish I could say it was one of my favorites. Never mind that Fraga slipped In- fucking- Sinc in there (who totally fucked us by NOT featuring the issue on TRL. Bunch of douchebags :mad:) but Marvel edited the fuck out of that arc. Too much so, IMO

FT

[Frank Tieri]

I think the arc was called Bloodsport. 167 to 169, if I remember correctly. Damn good arc, though it's been a while since I've read it.

The thing about Bloodsport-- and The Best There Is-- I probably get asked to bring MR X back more than any other character. Him and Shiver Man

FT

[ChastMastr]

Glad you liked the Bloodsport arc, dude-- though I wish I could say it was one of my favorites. Never mind that Fraga slipped In- fucking- Sinc in there (who totally fucked us by NOT featuring the issue on TRL. Bunch of douchebags :mad:) but Marvel edited the fuck out of that arc. Too much so, IMO

FT

Speaking of making changes without asking the writers... (from another thread I just replied to before reading this!)

:scared:

[Howlett]

The thing about Bloodsport-- and The Best There Is-- I probably get asked to bring MR X back more than any other character. Him and Shiver Man

FT

I'm not surprised. They were both cool characters that you created, at a time when nearly every Marvel book I can think of was just reusing the same old villains again and again. Especially Wolverine. There were only so many times we could take another Sabertooth or Lady Deathstrike out for revenge story.

For gods sake, you even made Wendigo and Bloodscream fairly cool again :lol:

[Arion]

Glad you liked the Bloodsport arc, dude-- though I wish I could say it was one of my favorites. Never mind that Fraga slipped In- fucking- Sinc in there (who totally fucked us by NOT featuring the issue on TRL. Bunch of douchebags :mad:) but Marvel edited the fuck out of that arc. Too much so, IMO

FT

Edited? Why did you let them do it?

[Storme]

Thanks! Appreciate the answers to my questions!!

[Arion]

Speaking of making changes without asking the writers... (from another thread I just replied to before reading this!)

:scared:

Funny coincidence.

[ChastMastr]

Funny coincidence.

Or... perhaps more... :scared:

David
cue Rod Serling

[Arion]

Or... perhaps more... :scared:

David
cue Rod Serling

Another cue is required.

[ChastMastr]

Not the John DeLancie one, I hope?

[Arion]

Not the John DeLancie one, I hope?

Long time no see. What have you been up to lately?