The Ultimate U has jumped the Shark [Archive]

S. Earl

12-29-2007, 10:25 PM

If it weren't for me collection mindedly finishing out ULTIMATES 2, I'd be at the point now where I haven't bought an Ultimate book in probably a year and a half. They just seem so... I dunno, "redundant" now...

I know. Back when it first started most of the Marvel U was in the toilet. Now it seems that only Spider Man is in the toilet, and Ultimate Spidey is the only decent Ultimate book.

Blow it up already.

thatguyfromsyracuse

12-29-2007, 10:26 PM

I still dig it...But I only really read Ultimate Spider-Man and The Ultimates.

Sehestedt

12-29-2007, 10:26 PM

Ultimate Spider-Man is still great.

The rest of the Ultimate titles... not so much. I wouldn't go so far as to say the other titles are bad. They just don't have USM's consistent excellentness.

Adam Witt

12-29-2007, 10:26 PM

but when would you say it happened?

Me? I think right around the crossover arc of Ultimate FF

Halfway through Ultimates 2. There was potential, and then its fate was sealed with Ultimate Power.

There's still some life and still a chance to salvage it, but Ultimates 3 is...really bad, and Ultimate X-Men's incomprefuckinghensible at this point. It's gonna take something big to put life back into it.

Kirblar

12-29-2007, 10:28 PM

The line's dead, and Ultimatum will hopefully put it out of it's misery.

USM will probably become the new "Amazing Spider-Girl".

Matt C. Linton

12-29-2007, 10:37 PM

Ultimate Spider-Man is as good as it's ever been, and maybe even better. Ultimate Fantastic Four has moments of brilliance (not really digging the current storyline, though). Ultimates 1 and 2 are some of the best superhero comics I've ever read, but volume 3 is one of the worst. Ultimate X-Men just seems consistently weak, regardless of who's writing it.

I don't think the line's jumped the shark, but with only 3 1/2 ongoing series it can feel that way when any one of the books is off.

Masculine Todd

12-29-2007, 10:44 PM

Masculine Todd

12-29-2007, 10:47 PM

USM will probably become the new "Amazing Spider-Girl".

The difference is, people will actually read USM. Zing!

Piechuck

12-29-2007, 10:51 PM

While it's not as good as it was years ago, I still love it. USM might be my favorite title.

Humphrey_Lee

12-29-2007, 10:53 PM

Ultimate Spider-Man hasn't jumped the shark yet. It's as strong as issue one.

Ultimate X-Men hasn't been relevant since Millar squandered the potential to be a contemporary political commentary and let it devolve into Authority-lite, with giving most characters no identity.

Ultimate Fantastic Four...I have no idea; I've never read it.

Ultimates has been consistently awesome.

USM jumped the shark three years ago when basically every three storylines started repeating. Sadly it took me an extra year and a half to realize this.

UXM was actually at it's best when BKV was on it telling stories that were mostly focused on the 2nd tier X-characters but he left way too soon and the book eventually just ate itself.

UFF was probably the best handled of them all until Mike Carey (as much as I love the man's work) came in and killed it which didn't take much because it was the least popular.

And the Ultimates has been "Six issues of awesome followed by nineteen or so of pretty good but blatantly self-indulgent and horribly plot-empty that came out way too sporadically for it's own good only to be finally crippled by a writer (Jeph Loeb) whose works of most prominence were most likely attributed to the collaborative effort from his artist (Tim Sale) than any true writing skill on his part"...

God I love my run-ons sometimes...

Kirblar

12-29-2007, 10:54 PM

And the Ultimates has been "Six issues of awesome followed by nineteen or so of pretty good but blatantly self-indulgent and horribly plot-empty that came out way too sporadically for it's own good only to be finally crippled by a writer (Jeph Loeb) whose works of most prominence were most likely attributed to the collaborative effort from his artist (Tim Sale) than any true writing skill on his part"...
Thank you for putting into words what I've felt about Ultimates for a while(that the first 6 issues are leagues above the rest of the run).

Humphrey_Lee

12-29-2007, 10:56 PM

Thank you for putting into words what I've felt about Ultimates for a while(that the first 6 issues are leagues above the rest of the run).

Thus is the power of my Run-on sentences... That's the true secret of how you get a reviewer gig with AICN. That and having a pulse apparently...

Masculine Todd

12-29-2007, 11:01 PM

USM jumped the shark three years ago when basically every three storylines started repeating. Sadly it took me an extra year and a half to realize this.

UXM was actually at it's best when BKV was on it telling stories that were mostly focused on the 2nd tier X-characters but he left way too soon and the book eventually just ate itself.

UFF was probably the best handled of them all until Mike Carey (as much as I love the man's work) came in and killed it which didn't take much because it was the least popular.

And the Ultimates has been "Six issues of awesome followed by nineteen or so of pretty good but blatantly self-indulgent and horribly plot-empty that came out way too sporadically for it's own good only to be finally crippled by a writer (Jeph Loeb) whose works of most prominence were most likely attributed to the collaborative effort from his artist (Tim Sale) than any true writing skill on his part"...

God I love my run-ons sometimes...

I vehemently disagree with Ultimate Spider-Man and Ultimate X-Men. Bendis has maintained great variety in his stories and it's still consistently the best superhero read available, IMHO.

Ultimate X-Men was fun under Vaughan, but he would have had to stay on for quite some time to make it a viable title. The series needed an identity. The characters needed personality. The team needed a greater purpose. It was always a superficial title. Bendis had some fun with it. So did Vaughan, but it needed stability and a writer to come one for a prolonged period of time to define the book. That hasn't happened. It's been nothing but wasted potential since Millar's fantastic first two arcs devolved into Teen-Authority.

Adam Witt

12-29-2007, 11:03 PM

USM jumped the shark three years ago when basically every three storylines started repeating. Sadly it took me an extra year and a half to realize this.

UXM was actually at it's best when BKV was on it telling stories that were mostly focused on the 2nd tier X-characters but he left way too soon and the book eventually just ate itself.

UFF was probably the best handled of them all until Mike Carey (as much as I love the man's work) came in and killed it which didn't take much because it was the least popular.

And the Ultimates has been "Six issues of awesome followed by nineteen or so of pretty good but blatantly self-indulgent and horribly plot-empty that came out way too sporadically for it's own good only to be finally crippled by a writer (Jeph Loeb) whose works of most prominence were most likely attributed to the collaborative effort from his artist (Tim Sale) than any true writing skill on his part"...

God I love my run-ons sometimes...

See, I'll debate the overall point of Loeb being a shitty writer with you; he's had some good non-Sale collaborated stuff...but good god, is Ultimates 3 horrible. I'm not sure I've read a shitter comic, in all honesty.

RegularJoe

12-29-2007, 11:08 PM

i'd argue that it has.

Humphrey_Lee

12-29-2007, 11:09 PM

I vehemently disagree with Ultimate Spider-Man and Ultimate X-Men. Bendis has maintained great variety in his stories and it's still consistently the best superhero read available, IMHO.

Ultimate X-Men was fun under Vaughan, but he would have had to stay on for quite some time to make it a viable title. The series needed an identity. The characters needed personality. The team needed a greater purpose. It was always a superficial title. Bendis had some fun with it. So did Vaughan, but it needed stability and a writer to come one for a prolonged period of time to define the book. That hasn't happened. It's been nothing but wasted potential since Millar's fantastic first two arcs devolved into Teen-Authority.

Eh, I know my opinion on USM is in the minority, but I still call bullshit on the variety. Every 18 issues it's the same fucking thing:

"Here's Peter. Peter is angsty but somewhat happy. But then here's this Goblin-related thing, and then Pete becomes a whiny bitch. And then someone close to Pete yells at him for whatever reason. But then Pete finds solace in whatever way hotter for his geeky solitude girlfriend he happens to be with and becomes somewhat happy again. And then we start the storyarcs over again. Plus, while we're at it, we create clever plays and in-jokes on current Marvel Universe characters. Spider-Girl is Jessica Jones! How fucking funny is that?! "

Seriously. I own the first 100 issues of USM, and I love the first 48 or so to death. But after that, I was really just reading the same comic in cycles which is why it had to go from my pullist.

UXM would have been great if it did get that prolonged writer though, like you said. If BKV had stuck around for like, three years and kept writing about Nightcrawler and Dazzler and those characters like he had, that book could have came out on top as the best of the bunch. But alas, like most potentially great things in comics, it was not meant to be.

Humphrey_Lee

12-29-2007, 11:12 PM

See, I'll debate the overall point of Loeb being a shitty writer with you; he's had some good non-Sale collaborated stuff...but good god, is Ultimates 3 horrible. I'm not sure I've read a shitter comic, in all honesty.

Eh, I wouldn't say he's an overall shitty writer, but he's completely average. Take away his Sale co-opted works, and I think the best example of his writing you can find is his first Supes/Batman arc with McGuiness, and that's barely above average. But his Superman run was only okay all said, Hush was only redeemed by some kinda cool character moments, his Wolvie arc was an abomination, as is anything Onslaught or Heroes Rebornish that he worked on, and all his Super/Batman arcs after the first one are actually part of the reason I started to realize that mainstream comics are really just not worth my time in general.

Yes, sadly Jeph Loeb's writing, as much as I don't think it's anything special, is part of the reason why I became as discerning a reader as I am today. At least something came of it though...

Piechuck

12-29-2007, 11:15 PM

I didn't care for Millar's UXM. The art didn't help either. Why can't an X-Men title have a regular artist (New X-Men)?

The Hodag

12-29-2007, 11:29 PM

Remember when there was actual buzz about the idea of ending the 616 universe and Ultimizing the whole thing?

Humphrey_Lee

12-29-2007, 11:30 PM

Remember when there was actual buzz about the idea of ending the 616 universe and Ultimizing the whole thing?

Thing is, I'm not sure they haven't or aren't slowly building to that... hence the "Mephisting" of one of the central characters...

The Hodag

12-29-2007, 11:43 PM

Thing is, I'm not sure they haven't or aren't slowly building to that... hence the "Mephisting" of one of the central characters...

There's a sort of stealth Ultimization at work (see also, Millar's 616 work, esp. Civil War), but for instance, we're never gonna have the Ultimate Transylvania Victor van Damme replace Dr. Doom, or Ultimate Gay Colossus replace Kitty-Bangin' 616 Colossus. In short, the Ultimate Universe has been a strong influence, but in the end it'll be a finite project and 616 will continue on.

Humphrey_Lee

12-29-2007, 11:54 PM

There's a sort of stealth Ultimization at work (see also, Millar's 616 work, esp. Civil War), but for instance, we're never gonna have the Ultimate Transylvania Victor van Damme replace Dr. Doom, or Ultimate Gay Colossus replace Kitty-Bangin' 616 Colossus. In short, the Ultimate Universe has been a strong influence, but in the end it'll be a finite project and 616 will continue on.

Yeah, that's kind of what I see too. Base characteristics and tendencies of the Ultimate line have started establishing themselves, but the more "erratic" ones that made the line what it was are remaining separate. I think the real sign will be when Captain America comes back (whenever that happens) he does so and immediately starts calling everyone "Meatballs"...

... god that was the most random obscure geek joke...

Benel Germosen

12-29-2007, 11:55 PM

Jump the shark? What is this 2002?

When something has become stale or uninteresting, let's never use the phrase " Jump the Shark " ever again.

Humphrey_Lee

12-29-2007, 11:58 PM

Jump the shark? What is this 2002?

When something has become stale or uninteresting, let's never use the phrase " Jump the Shark " ever again.

But if we don't, Arthur Fonzarelli's contribution to society will have been all for naught!!

Blandy vs Terrorism

12-29-2007, 11:59 PM

Ultimates 2

The Hodag

12-30-2007, 12:00 AM

Jump the shark? What is this 2002?

Sez the dude with the "Juggernaut, Bitch" sig line!

:lol:

Actually, I appreciate that you went with one of the more obscure, but funnier, lines from the overdub. I have to confess, I found that vid mildly hysterical.

The Hodag

12-30-2007, 12:17 AM

I think the real sign will be when Captain America comes back (whenever that happens) he does so and immediately starts calling everyone "Meatballs"...

You know, I'm actually starting to wonder if Steve Rogers will come back. I have a feeling the Winter Soldier's a better fit for modern audiences and Brubaker seems perfectly happy to run with that ball. Now of course if a Cap movie comes about and Marvel wants to sync the comic up with its (likely) use of Steve Rogers for the film, that'd probably nix anything Brubaker's doing, but...maybe not. Maybe Marvel would just kick off a "Tales of Cap" sister book with untold Steve Rogers adventures and Winter Soldier would continue on his merry way.

/(. . )/

12-30-2007, 12:42 AM

haven't read an Ultimate Book in over 2 years..

However, up until Nov of 2005

Ultimate Spider-Man was always fun
Ultimate X-Men.. Millar's run did not feel like an x-book to me. I started to enjoy it once Vaughn took over, however I had to drop it for financial reasons.
Ultimate FF.. read the bendis arcs. was never an FF fan..
Ultimates.. read the first arc.. served it's purpose..

my complaint about the ultimate verse is that there is too much repetition of the 616 universe. let it be fresh

Hate_Prime

12-30-2007, 12:44 AM

I've only stopped reading UFF.

USM remains brilliant. UXM is a barely what it was in Millar's awesome run, but I still have love for those characters. I'll continue reading Ultimates 3 despite the hokey dialog; just for MAD art (in spite of the colors).

But I do think Marvel needs to do something to set fire to the ultimate line again. Maybe bribe Bru to write UXM or Ultimates and Peter David on UFF.

The Hodag

12-30-2007, 12:54 AM

my complaint about the ultimate verse is that there is too much repetition of the 616 universe. let it be fresh

It's almost impossible to imagine, but what would it have been like if the Ultimate Universe had begun with Ultimized versions of all the classic heroes but allowed only original villains? Maybe at that point they might as well have had original heroes as well, but I think it would've been an interesting challenge.

Humphrey_Lee

12-30-2007, 12:55 AM

It's almost impossible to imagine, but what would it have been like if the Ultimate Universe had begun with Ultimized versions of all the classic heroes but allowed only original villains? Maybe at that point they might as well have had original heroes as well, but I think it would've been an interesting challenge.

This is too much for my rum addled brain to comprehend...

Benel Germosen

12-30-2007, 01:17 AM

Sez the dude with the "Juggernaut, Bitch" sig line!

:lol:

Actually, I appreciate that you went with one of the more obscure, but funnier, lines from the overdub. I have to confess, I found that vid mildly hysterical.

I'mma rape ya' and eat your fucking costume. Just wait.

The Hodag

12-30-2007, 02:10 AM

I'mma rape ya' and eat your fucking costume. Just wait.

You do not talk to me like that with my mohawk.

Haborym

12-30-2007, 02:17 AM

I dropped both UFF and UXM almost 2 years ago now. I only just dropped USM when Bagley left, although at the time I planned on moving to hardcover. I don't know if I will.

Humphrey and I seem to have the same complaint about USM. I'm tired of Goblins showing up every few story arcs. If I didn't have to read another Kingpin, Goblin or Doc Ock story for a long time, I might be more apt to stick with the series. I'd love to see new villains or ultimatized villains we haven't seen before.

To be honest, if Joey Q was going to screw with 616 Spidey, I would have preferred Marvel just Mephisting USM into the 616 Marvel U and closing the door on the Ultimate Universe. Instead, apart from NA, I'm Spidey-less in my reading habits until Brian makes me love USM again.

Ray G.

12-30-2007, 05:32 AM

Oh, a long, long time ago.

USM is still excellent, although it's REALLY feeling the loss of Bagley. But it's a stand-alone story where Bendis does whatever he wants. The rest of the Ultimate U never really affects it too much.

Ultimates was fantastic, in my opinion. But due to the obscene shipping schedule, it quickly also became completely irrelevant. And the start of Ultimates 3 was one of the worst things I've ever read.

Ultimate X-men was trash from the start. I've said this before and I'll say it again - Mark Millar is not usually a very good writer. Around the time he had mutant children being burned to death in the streets and Bush being forced to lick Magneto's boots, it was very clear he was on a soapbox. The art was irregular, Bendis' run didn't live up to its potential(except for that one fantastic single issue), Vaughan's run was enjoyable but forgettable, and Kirkman's has made it more complex than the regular title.

Ultimate Fantastic Four never got off the ground. Not a single arc has improved on the foundations they set up in the 616, except possibly President Thor. And I will never forgive it for visiting the scourge of Marvel Zombies on us.

Most of the events(Ultimate War, Ultimate Power) have been skippable. The Galactus trilogy was fun, but didn't feel cosmic enough. The Daredevil/Elektra minis were just okay. And let's all laugh at Ultimate Wolverine vs. Hulk.

So, yeah. The Ultimate Universe has been a trainwreck for a while now. I'd prefer if the whole damn thing was folded save for USM, and Bendis was allowed

costello

12-30-2007, 05:38 AM

How's Ultimate Power holding up?

costello

12-30-2007, 05:40 AM

Is Marvel Age the new Ultimates?

TheFalcon

12-30-2007, 06:06 AM

I've been buying the Ultimate stuff in HC's, but now I've pretty much given up on all of them.

USM - Still buying, but I'm thinking of stopping after I get the next one with the Clone Saga.
UFF - Stopped after Millar's run.
UXM -Stopped after Vaughan's run.
Ultimates - Stopping as soon as Vol.2 shows up in the mail.

I got Ultimate Galactus trilogy too and I'm getting Ultimate Power, but after that I'm pretty much out. Hopefully the Ultimate Origin and Ultimatum stuff can breath some new life into the UU because right now it seems to be dying a slow and painful death.

Garra

12-30-2007, 06:24 AM

USM is awesome.

UXM has been shaky for a long time, but I will say te last issue of UXmen was the best issue of UXmen I had read in prolly 2 years. Kirkman just may finally be righting that ship.

UFF I droppedaround issue 22 or so, so can not really comment on it. But I have never been a FF fan. UFF was the first FF book I ever got for awhile.

Ultimates I enjoy and continue to read. I have liked every issue so far and dont find nearly as much fault with the books as alot of people seem to do. Its a fun read for me and several of the Ultimate versions of the characters are my prefered versions in comparison to the 616 versions.

Ultimate Hulk vs Wolverine was shaping up to be awesome, shape that something that was good and everyone liked, they werent able to finish up. I mean wtf, thats just brilliant.

The Ultimate Iron Man books I havent chekced out because Im not a big fan of the character.

All in all I prefer the Ultimate books over the 616 books. Even when they tend to be redundant to the 616 versions, they are still fresher, and still dont have nearly the baggage and angst of the 616 books.

IMO UXmen missed the boat the most on this though. The 616 Xmen books are just horrible imo, full of teen age reactions and drama, and layer after layer of crap. They could have lightened the load and made it really fresh but choose to jump right back into all the same bull shit almost.

Thommy Melanson

12-30-2007, 06:33 AM

I've never read UFF or UXM, pick up USM when an HC volume comes out and the occasional single if I've had a light pull week, and buy Ultimates both in singles and as trades.

But after Ultimates 3 #1, the series is dead to me.

One of the worst comics I've ever read, and I've read Youngblood, mind you. The writing and coloring were competing neck-and-neck in a "what's worse?" contest.

My only Ultimate U purchase now will be the USM Vol. 8 and 9 HCs.

S. Earl

12-30-2007, 08:10 AM

Jump the shark? What is this 2002?

When something has become stale or uninteresting, let's never use the phrase " Jump the Shark " ever again.

Well then what will I use to describe how dull your mom has became in bed?

Thommy Melanson

12-30-2007, 08:11 AM

Well then what will I use to describe how dull your mom has became in bed?

Marriage.

S. Earl

12-30-2007, 08:13 AM

I will be picking up Ultimate Human, if only for the Cary Nord art. I remember seeing his work on DD when I was a teen, it's amazing how his skills have grown.

Sy-Klone

12-30-2007, 08:17 AM

Ultimate Spider-Man has made a nice recovery over the last 18 issues or so. For a while there, USM would have been more appropriately titled "Ultimate Marvel Showcase" because every story gave us some Ultimate guest star, e.g. Wolverine, Doctor Strange, Black Cat, Iron Fist, Shang-Chi, Silver Sable, Deadpool, etc.

But since "Clone Saga," the book's been humming along quite nicely.

I've never been a fan of Ultimate Fantastic Four, though. And I hated the Ultimates.

jamestolliver

12-30-2007, 08:17 AM

I only read USM and I really love it. I used to read UXM and UFF but stopped after millar vaughn and millar left their respective titles. I tried some kirkman and some Carey but they just weren't my cup of tea. I read ultimates 1 and 2 but I am staying away from 3. That said, I look foreward to Ultimate Origins.

Mister Mets

12-30-2007, 08:21 AM

The Ultimate books need a kick in the ass right now.

The problems.
1- The Marvel Universe started getting good and accessible, which undercut the buzz of the Ultimate Universe.

2- Ultimate X-Men is the lowest selling of the X-Men books.

bartleby

12-30-2007, 08:25 AM

evilgenius

12-30-2007, 10:59 AM

Sounds like it's time for "Ultimate Messiah CompleX."

Sounds like it's time for a magical retcon that will make the books more like your dad's Ultimate books.

:scared:

Mister Mets

12-30-2007, 12:08 PM

At the moment, Marvel has to consider whether it's worth spending time and effort on the Ultimate books.

I think it is. The Ultimate Fantastic Four are radically different. Ultimate Spider-Man is what Ditko now believes Spider-Man should have been. For all the low buzz, Ultimates 3 will likely sell shitloads of money. And all Ultimate X-Men really needs is an A-list writer.

WilliamRichard1985

12-30-2007, 12:28 PM

but when would you say it happened?

Me? I think right around the crossover arc of Ultimate FF

have to disagree,Millar's run on UF4 was some damn fine comics

Uther

12-30-2007, 12:59 PM

Well, just keeping USM going while cancelling the other three makes a whole lot of sence because it is, pretty much and of course in my opinion, the best big two superhero book being published and has never not been for the whole of its run. Long may it prosper. But, then again, it was the book that chained me into comics after the massive dissapointment of UXM which (this also applies to UF4) has a big meh, I really just don't care thing going on, I would pick them up really, really wanting to like them and still be indelibly coloured totally uninterested, I wanted to like and love them, but they seemed actively working against my interest - so they both need to go. And with Ultimates Loeb did a good job of killing a book that was already looking on the brown side of outstaying its welcome.

Rosemary's Baby

12-30-2007, 01:17 PM

I canceled USM about a month ago. I used to read UXM a while back and canceled it, same with UFF.

USM felt far too repetitious. Canceling it felt odd.

Jef UK

12-30-2007, 01:18 PM

I don't think you are using the phrase, "Jump the Shark" properly.

It's hard to even imagine how the phrase could apply to mainstream, monthly sooper-hero comics.

Japhy Ryder

12-30-2007, 01:34 PM

I think ultimate hulk vs wolverine sums up what has happened with the ultimate universe: it started out strong with a lot of promise, but without good explanation, all that promise dissipated for obfuscated reasons.

Jef UK

12-30-2007, 01:43 PM

I think the following sentence sums up the Ultimate Universe line: some titles are better than others and this fluctates month to month, year to year, like the entirety of publishing.

TheKraken

12-30-2007, 02:02 PM

USM is still a great read and I completely love Stuart Immonen's art on it (but, full disclosure, I love his art on pretty much anything. I even bought the otherwise forgettable first 4 issues of Marvel Comics Presents for him). The rest of the line has always been peripheral to me. I didn't like Millar's UXM and dropped it after the first 2 arcs. I enjoyed Bendis' run, but that was only 12 issues. Vaughan's was fine but I mostly hung around for Immonen. Kirkman finally made me drop it. UFF started off pretty shaky and stayed that way 'til I dropped it after Mike Carey's first arc. Every one who wrote it had their good and bad moments, but the very idea of a teenage FF is, I think, too flawed to work for me. Ultimates was ok for the first series, but the 2nd didn't do much for me and I'm not bothering with Loeb's book. USM is the Ultimate universe as far as I'm concerned...

Thudpucker

12-30-2007, 02:17 PM

The Mike Carey / Pasqual Ferry arcs on Ultimate FF have been great. The angle they put on Thanos and Silver Surfer are very different than the 616, I really enjoyed it.

King of Mars

12-30-2007, 10:20 PM

The Ultimate U. is definitely damaged but it's not beyond fixing. Stop the crossover junk, get a good writer in to clean up Kirkman's mess, and replace Loeb and Madureira with a truly inspired (and timely) creative team. Do that, and everything will be fine. More than anything else, it's Marvel's fixation with trends and buzzworthy creator names that is hurting the line (at least, from a quality standpoint).

S. Earl

12-30-2007, 10:27 PM