Orson Scott Card On Star Wars: No Faith in This Force

[Cth]

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/167/story_16700_1.html (http://www.beliefnet.com/story/167/story_16700_1.html)

Memo to would-be Jedis: in the new movie, the knights are elitist, dictatorial, and unconvinced that good is an absolute.

Star Wars fans are legendary for their loyalty. I saw plenty of that in the 9:45 p.m. showing of Revenge of the Sith on its opening day. They had waited in line to get tickets to the very first showing at midnight the night before, and then saw it twice more before the opening day was over.

Many had obviously memorized all the howlingly bad lines. They began laughing out loud just before the line was said, and applauded at the wretched “emotional” moments in the movie.

But then, walking out of the theater, they fiercely defended the movie against anyone who dared to speak against it. It might be badly written, but it’s their badly written movie.

Some fans are so loyal they have even adopted “Jedi” as their official religion on census reports and The Force as their equivalent of a “personal savior.”

In a way, this is kind of bittersweet. It shows that the universal hunger for meaning is still prevalent, even in our agnostic era, which is encouraging; but these true believers will eventually realize that the philosophy behind Star Wars is every bit as sophisticated as the science — in other words, mostly wrong and always silly.

It’s one thing to put your faith in a religion founded by a real person who claimed divine revelation, but it’s something else entirely to have, as the scripture of your religion, a storyline that you know was made up by a very nonprophetic human being.

How Does the Force Stack Up As a Religion?

As a religion, the Force is just the sort of thing you’d expect a liberal-minded teenage kid to invent. There’s no God and there are no rules other than a vague insistence on unselfishness and oath-keeping. Power comes from the sum of all life in the universe, and it is manichaean, not Christian — evil is simply another way of using the Force. Only not as nice.

Good and evil are in a constant and nearly equipoised tug-of-war in the Star Wars series. But in the more recent movies, it seems that the goal of good people is not to wipe out evil, but rather for there to be a balance between the Light and Dark sides of the Force.

The new movie itself asserts a kind of equivalence. When the evil Palpatine says, “Good is a point of view--the Sith and the Jedi are almost the same,” we can dismiss this moral relativism as part of the deception of the dark side.

But in a pivotal scene, Obi-Wan says what amounts to the same thing: “Only a Sith deals in absolutes.”

Isn’t that odd? The only thing both sides agree on is that people who believe in absolute good and evil are bad!

I suspect that Lucas realized, after writing "Good is a point of view," that all his friends actually believed that. So he had to make it clear that moral relativism was the right way after all—so he had Obi-Wan say that absolutism was a Sith thing, even though in the actual story, the best of the Jedis show an unbending commitment to absolute Good.

It’s a terrible thing, I suppose, for a writer to invent a religion and then discover that he and all his friends are on the wrong side of it.

The Jedi: A Ruling Elite

Revenge of the Sith gives us our first chance to see the Jedi council as anything more than an incredibly boring business conference that we were forced to attend between action scenes. Not as if the Jedi masters discussed ideas — it was still a business meeting, in which they told each other obvious things and then made decisions by a sort of instant consensus that is never achieved in the real world except in really scary dictatorships. Clearly they were modeled after an adolescent view of the Knights of the Round Table.

But they aren’t a political or military group, despite the talk of government, of war and peace. They are also monks of a martial order, who have trained each other and who live under a strict religious discipline.

The Jedi may claim to be in favor of democracy, but in fact they function as a ruling elite, making their decisions among themselves. They occasionally submit to the authority of the legislature, and they seem to respect the rule of law, though whose law it’s hard to say. By and large, however, they decide among themselves what they’re going to do and when it’s OK to break the law and defy the civilian authority.

They are, in fact, utterly anti-democratic, like a militia that owes nothing to civilian authority. Eventually there’s going to be a coup.

And even though they train like crazy to learn to master their power, none of their discussions as a council are devoted to considering what is right and wrong. They simply know the rules and, except for those being tempted by the Dark Side, they never question them.

They have way too much power.

There are other ways that the actual story subverts the official “religion” of the Force. Take the idea that you become a Jedi by training. Well, sure — but you are only chosen to train for the Jedity if you have some kind of inborn power.

You can dedicate your life to serving the Force if you want, but you can’t become a Jedi warrior-priest unless you were born with the power and anointed as some Jedi’s apprentice.

In other words, they may seem very inclusive—one Jedi from every species (except for humans, who are way overrepresented)—but in fact they’re a self-perpetuating aristocracy.

Who Are the Bad Guys?

So instead of looking at the storyline of Episode III as a conflict between good and evil, you could read it as a conflict between the entrenched aristocracy trying to preserve their monopoly on power, and an ambitious upstart, who is determined to break that monopoly and take control for himself. The only reason we don’t see it that way is because the other side is so much more evil. But the body count left behind by Jedi knights is — or should be — disturbing.

In other words, despite whatever political message Lucas might or might not have intended, the Jedi are the smug orthodoxy, always congratulating themselves on their rectitude. No wonder the whole senate seems thrilled when the new Emperor announces the fall of the Jedi. They don’t know yet how evil the Emperor will be, but they know they don’t mind having the meddlesome Jedi out of the way.

A Conservative Religion

The overt religion of Revenge of the Sith is a kind of democratic pantheism, but the real religion is for the privileged few, who get to decide what’s best for everybody else and then enforce their own rules, all in the name of “the Force.”

How did a nice Protestant boy like George Lucas come up with an official religion more rigidly hierarchical and doctrinally uniform than Catholicism?

It’s the religion of the people who are Chosen, and you aren’t ready to have a share of the power until we say you are. Quite the opposite of, say, the Quakers or even the Puritans, who eschewed permanent religious hierarchies.

Even the afterlife is reserved for the few, the proud, the Jedi. As we learned at the end of Return of the Jedi, even the most dark-side-serving of ex-Jedi mass murderers can, with a single “good” act like refusing to murder his own son (which even the most evil men generally avoid), earn the right to eternal life as the equal of true saints like Yoda and Obi-Wan.

But not one of the others who died in the war against the evil Sith emperor was similarly granted a life after death—or at least, if they were, they apparently weren’t allowed on camera at the end of Return of the Jedi. Maybe the non-Jedi had to stay in their own segregated section of rock-'n-roll heaven.

No! That’s not fair! The Jedi devote their whole life to the service of others!

But they’re not chosen on the basis of their virtue—for all we know, there are millions of people more virtuous and unselfish than they. And since they alone get to determine what “the good of others” actually consists of (though it does seem to include a lot of killing), how are the Jedi distinguishable from any number of other dictatorial groups that justify their actions by claiming that they do it all for the little guy?

So it might not be such a good thing if the Star Wars films become the first movies to lead to a real-world religion.

Of course, all this quibbling would be moot if, in fact, the Jedi religion actually worked—if people could tap into the Force and do the miracles that the Jedi routinely perform.

But it doesn’t work. No matter how intensely you believe, you can’t leap tall buildings with a single bound or drive a car with your eyes closed.

So if a religion is known to be fictional, trains its exclusive practitioners to be killing machines, and doesn’t actually work in the real world, why do people call themselves Jedi?

As a protest against religion in general?

As a yearning for power?

Or as a dream of a world in which virtue, however it’s defined, can actually do something tangible against the evil in the universe?

[alexlannin]

makes good points.

[J. R. Scherer]

I totally agree with this.

That's boggling my brain (not what he said, but that I actually agree with him...)

[GelfXIII]

Good article! Very interesting viewpoints. Thanks for posting this.

[PeterSparker]

Ok, its officail, I hate Star Wars now. I can't take another exposition on these movies.

I'm sticking with Cedrick the Entertainer's 'Honeymooners' from now on

[Gregory]

As a religion, the Force is just the sort of thing you’d expect a liberal-minded teenage kid to invent. There’s no God and there are no rules other than a vague insistence on unselfishness and oath-keeping. Power comes from the sum of all life in the universe, and it is manichaean, not Christian — evil is simply another way of using the Force. Only not as nice.

The existence of the monastic demands is crucial to the story. Without the conflict of the Jedis and Padme, Anakin could eat his cake and have it too. When he pursues love, he falls into evil's sway. I'd hardly say the discipline is vague in what it demands: Moderate your emotions, reach out beyond your physical form, don't be a dick. If anything it's just a new measure to ward off the Seven Deadly Sins. That's not the leanings of a typical teenager, but suggests a more mature philosophy. Either way, the reason many teens may find it attractive is because, unlike some of the religions they may have been raised under, the Jedi don't say people who disagree with them are hellbound.

[The Cheap-Arse Film Critic]

My Uncle's a Jedi, officially...

[Drewr15]

The existence of the monastic demands is crucial to the story. Without the conflict of the Jedis and Padme, Anakin could eat his cake and have it too. When he pursues love, he falls into evil's sway. I'd hardly say the discipline is vague in what it demands: Moderate your emotions, reach out beyond your physical form, don't be a dick. If anything it's just a new measure to ward off the Seven Deadly Sins. That's not the leanings of a typical teenager, but suggests a more mature philosophy. Either way, the reason many teens may find it attractive is because, unlike some of the religions they may have been raised under, the Jedi don't say people who disagree with them are hellbound.

actually they do tell other Jedi that if you don't follow their philosophy it will lead to the dark side.
he makes some interesting points, takes it a bit to far but its thought provoking.

[Captain Nate]

[URL=http://www.beliefnet.com/story/167/story_16700_1.html]
I suspect that Lucas realized, after writing "Good is a point of view," that all his friends actually believed that. So he had to make it clear that moral relativism was the right way after all—so he had Obi-Wan say that absolutism was a Sith thing, even though in the actual story, the best of the Jedis show an unbending commitment to absolute Good.


Yes, this was the thing that stood out to me most in the final battle scene! When Vader says "you're either with me, or you're my enemy" and Obi-Wan gives the "Only the Sith deal with absolutes" line...a moment later Anakin tells Obi-Wan that palpatine isn't evil from his point of view and Obi-Wan tells Vader that he is truly lost if he believes that!

The Jedi are a flawed order, and I think that makes the movie more interesting. I love how it's possible to think the Jedi's are screw ups...one of the strongest threads in the story is that the Jedi are about to stage a coup against a democratically elected government...and we all have to question ourselves about whether or not coups are justafiable in certain circumstances. Very interesting indeed.

[Gregory]

actually they do tell other Jedi that if you don't follow their philosophy it will lead to the dark side.

... once they start to use the Force. It's a warning that giving in to extreme emotion (in either direction) can cause you to manipulate the Force in bad ways. But they don't say that non-Jedis who don't believe in the Force are damned.

[Matt Jay]

The Jedi faith has always seemed to me to be a less-enlightened version of Buddhism. They preach a type of non-attachment, but go ahead and do selfless acts anyway.

Card says the Jedi devote themselves to absolute good, but that's just Card's own absolutist view of good. I see the Jedi as being pragmatists that try to err on the side of selflessness. That's where they differ from the Sith. And Republicans. :)

[andyjoe]

cool article.

go you mormon boy go!

[Bill?]

Card is just mad because someone told him Yoda is gay.

[Fourthman]

Funny, you don't look Jedi.

[Drewr15]

... once they start to use the Force. It's a warning that giving in to extreme emotion (in either direction) can cause you to manipulate the Force in bad ways. But they don't say that non-Jedis who don't believe in the Force are damned.

yeah but that's because you are beneath them if you're not powerful enough to be a jedi. Believe me I'm not trying to defend Catholicism or Islam, I don't believe in organized relegion, but I think his point is that if you are not a jedi you are not significant and just a pawn to be manipulated into their visions of good and evil. One could say that the flawed relegions of our time at least say you matter (if you'll convert), the jedi's say, ah your not worthy, get out of here, we'll let you know what to do. That was his point.

[Brendan]

Card razzed on Star Trek last week. Even when he does occasionally make a good point, what you are seeing here is not serious criticism. This is a science-fiction author suffering from a serious case of literary penis envy.

[Jim T.]

Cripes. Now I know why it's taking so long between issues of Ultimate IM. Who has time to put this much thought into Jedi nerdness?

[Cth]

The Jedi faith has always seemed to me to be a less-enlightened version of Buddhism. They preach a type of non-attachment, but go ahead and do selfless acts anyway.

Card says the Jedi devote themselves to absolute good, but that's just Card's own absolutist view of good. I see the Jedi as being pragmatists that try to err on the side of selflessness. That's where they differ from the Sith. And Republicans. :)

It's very Taoist as well.

[mattbrand]

Cripes. Now I know why it's taking so long between issues of Ultimate IM. Who has time to put this much thought into Jedi nerdness?

:lol:

[Thomas Mauer]

Well, the Jedi in Star Wars aren't a religion, they're just a bunch of organized "gifted people" who work in a non-governmental organization. What they actually do doesn't matter. They're recognized as a group by the government and that's that.

Card does have a LOT of valid points in this article, but where he goes wrong is that he's likening a bunch of fun loving Australians/Brits writing "Jedi" in a real-life census report with a fictional NGO that doesn't claim to be a religion.

If anything, the Jedi's religion is the Force.

[Mr. E!]

If you find the article interesting, I suggest the following book from the lovely people who brought you The Simpsons and Philosophy, BTVS and Philosophy, and the upcoming Superheroes and Philosophy:
http://www.opencourtbooks.com/images/star_wars.jpg

[DonFanucci]

David Brin goes on and on about Lucas and Star Wars too..... what's the deal with Science Fiction writers bitching about moaning about Star Wars?

Kinda reeks of envy IMO... which is funny since they're both sucessful writers who should be above criticizing other people's work...

[xyzzy]

David Brin goes on and on about Lucas and Star Wars too..... what's the deal with Science Fiction writers bitching about moaning about Star Wars?

Kinda reeks of envy IMO... which is funny since they're both sucessful writers who should be above criticizing other people's work...

I like Brin's stuff. What's he said about Star Wars?

[DonFanucci]

I like Brin's stuff. What's he said about Star Wars?


http://www.davidbrin.com/starwarsarticle1.html (http://www.davidbrin.com/starwarsarticle1.html)

Similar bitching.....

[Thudpucker]

I totally agree with this.

That's boggling my brain (not what he said, but that I actually agree with him...)

Card is a highly intellegent man with a lot of good opinions. I'm fairly impressed and agree with alot of what he says, and enjoy his novels.

He just has a few bad opinions too unfortuanatley, like the anti-gay stance and a few of his Conservative leanings.

[Thudpucker]

http://www.davidbrin.com/starwarsarticle1.html (http://www.davidbrin.com/starwarsarticle1.html)

Similar bitching.....

ALL serious Sci-fi writers hate Star Wars. Most credit it for the death of Sci-fi as it was in the 60's and 70's - intellegent, well thought out and realistic.

After the popularity of Star Wars, publishers shifted the style of Sci-fi novels to that slant - fantasy set in space. Alot of the authors working at that time (like Card and Brin) resented it alot.

[xyzzy]

ALL serious Sci-fi writers hate Star Wars. Most credit it for the death of Sci-fi as it was in the 60's and 70's - intellegent, well thought out and realistic.

After the popularity of Star Wars, publishers shifted the style of Sci-fi novels to that slant - fantasy set in space. Alot of the authors working at that time (like Card and Brin) resented it alot.

It's a shame, because there's room for both. Sometimes I want a hard sci-fi book, sometimes I just want an adventure.

[AAlgar]

ALL serious Sci-fi writers hate Star Wars. Most credit it for the death of Sci-fi as it was in the 60's and 70's - intellegent, well thought out and realistic.

After the popularity of Star Wars, publishers shifted the style of Sci-fi novels to that slant - fantasy set in space. Alot of the authors working at that time (like Card and Brin) resented it alot.

Star Wars also brought unprecedented attention to the genre, and earned "serious" sci fi guys a lot more money than they would have gotten otherwise.

Why does space = science fiction anyway?

[DonFanucci]

ALL serious Sci-fi writers hate Star Wars. Most credit it for the death of Sci-fi as it was in the 60's and 70's - intellegent, well thought out and realistic.

After the popularity of Star Wars, publishers shifted the style of Sci-fi novels to that slant - fantasy set in space. Alot of the authors working at that time (like Card and Brin) resented it alot.

Boo Hoo.... sorry, I'm just so anti-creator-bashing-creator that I can't get behind this stuff.... be a professional... if you don't like the movies, then instead of writing articles and essays about how "flawed" they are, spend that time writing something better....

It just sounds like they're jumping up and down flairing their arms about begging for attention: "Hey! Lookit me! I wrote something better! Don't pay attention to him! He sucks! I'm better!"

It's like Bendis yelling: "Don't read that Geoff Johns book! It's not perfect! My books are!"

Ugh.

[Jamie Howdeshell]

why does it seem as if card is scolding lucas for creating a religion? lucas didn't create a religion. he wrote a fucking story and some crazy fans made it into a religion.

card does make some good points sometimes, but i honestly think the man is a stark raving egomaniac. and i can't tell you the number of times he has criticized hollywood movies and the people who make them over the most asinine things. i guess those community plays he's had a hand in give him the right to do so. :rolleyes:
:lol:

here's his review of the new star wars movie....

http://greensboro.rhinotimes.com/story.html?id=682 (http://greensboro.rhinotimes.com/story.html?id=682)

Revenge of the Sith

By Orson Scott Card

The Star Wars saga seems to have been the dream of George Lucas’s childhood. In his mind’s eye he saw great starfleets in battle, mighty armies sweeping their enemies before them, ruthless politicians outmaneuvering each other, and in the midst of all, the powerful Jedi knights, each one the match for an army, wielding the power that lies hidden within the fabric of all life in the universe.

Lucas saw one child, born in an obscure corner of the universe, but touched with power and shaped by destiny. He did not know who fathered him, but he was adopted by the Jedi and trained to be the mightiest of them all. Alas, he turned to the dark side of the force and became the tool of pure evil; but a son and daughter conceived when he was still within the circle of the Jedi would grow up to defeat his master and liberate him from the darkness that had swallowed up the goodness that was always innate within him.

It was an epic of breathtaking scope and George Lucas could not forget it. He became a filmmaker; his first major film, American Graffiti, become the touchstone of a generation and gave him the power to make whatever film he wanted.

He wanted to make his epic dream come to life on the screen, in all its majesty and power – and humor, and love, and heroism, and sacrifice ...

He labored over the special effects to make it all seem real, and he succeeded. The dream of his childhood was there on the screen.

Too bad his inner child never learned how to write.

He did fine with American Graffiti – those characters spoke with the voices of his own teenage years. But Star Wars required heroic dialogue and Lucas never acquired an ear for it. It’s as if someone who once heard a few passages of Shakespeare decided to write the sequel to Romeo and Juliet.

Worse and Worse

On the first Star Wars film he had help. He was not yet so powerful that no one would criticize his work and help him get rid of the most embarrassing clunkers. On the next two films, better writers helped him even more, so that, at least in The Empire Strikes Back, his saga matched his vision aurally as well as visually.

Then he went sixteen years without making a movie before returning to write the true beginning of his epic.

But by now he was a legend. Fans not only worshiped him, some actually believed in the Force and listed “Jedi” as their religion. In Hollywood, a land where the only signs of divinity are fame and money, he had so much of both that there was no one left who could say to him, “George, please, get some help on that scene, it’s going to make people laugh in the theaters, and not the right way.”

Instead, it was apparently all “Yes, Mr. Lucas” and “Wonderful, Mr. Lucas” and the result was two of the most successful wretched films in history.

Now the saga is complete. The end of Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith introduces the three prime movers of the original three movies: Luke Skywalker, Princess Leia, and the black-masked Darth Vader.

And here’s the interesting thing. Even though the characterization is nonexistent, the relationships like a seven-year-old’s impression of how grownups act, the politics clearly the product of a mind that has never grasped history, and the science at the “How can rivers flow north?” level, the underlying saga still manages to touch a chord.

Don’t misunderstand. I laughed along with the other people in the theater at those horrible moments when the poor actors were forced to say some of the most appalling lines ever spoken on the screen. I could not possibly care about characters who were never for a moment believable as human beings.

But the story itself, the epic that had so inspired Young Mr. Lucas, does have grandeur in it that his own ineptness was unable to destroy. There is power in the sheer ambition of it. Sitting in the flickering light of a dying fire, listening to the old man tell us the tale he learned in his youth, we are captivated despite the cracking of the old man’s voice and the fact that everything he says is a cliche. For we know, at some level, that the tale has some truth in it.

That people rarely embrace evil for its own sake, but rather because they think they can accomplish something good.

That once you cross certain moral lines, it becomes almost trivial to cross others.

That no matter how much you tell yourself you’re doing it for someone you love, ultimately ambition is always selfish, and “love” is self-deception.

That those who have the power always think they have the right to decide for everyone, and the wisdom to know what ought to be done.

That technology does not change human nature.

That there is something inside us more powerful than machines or muscles, something that by force of will and mind can change the world around us, if only we learn the secret and master it.

What Do We Make of This Film?

The actors are heroic in every sense. The “characters” they play are larger than life, striding like giants across the screen – that takes enormous presence and power on the screen, and these actors had it.

But the actors are heroic in another sense. To be handed a script with dialogue like the lines Mr. Lucas wrote for them is one of the worst nightmares actors have. (The worst nightmare is to arrive at a theatre and learn that you have to go on stage right now and no one will tell you what the play is and you don’t know any of the lines. You’re also in your underwear.)

Yet these actors took those lines and made them into something. I think they must have seen Episode I and realized that the lines really were as bad as they thought, and their director had no clue. So if anyone was going to save them from humiliation, it would have to be themselves.

As a result, they all worked hard to create line readings that took some of the curse off of Mr. Lucas’s leaden ear for heroic speech. And most of the time they succeeded. At times it was almost possible to believe that humans might have spoken that way. Maybe. Somewhere.

There ought to be an Oscar category for Best Acting with a Desperately Bad Script. I’d give it straight off to Hayden Christensen, because despite all he made the brooding Anakin Skywalker’s a vigorous, compelling presence on the screen. And we almost never laughed at his lines, which is quite an achievement, considering that Mr. Lucas meant almost all of Annakin Skywalker’s lines to be in deadly earnest, which practically guarantees they’ll get a laugh.

But Natalie Portman, Samuel L. Jackson, Frank Oz, Ewan McGregor, and Jimmy Smits are close runners up.

Ian McDiarmid, as the conniving politician Palpatine, had a special challenge. His lines were so over the top that there was no way to deliver them naturally. Besides, he almost certainly had Mr. Lucas telling him, “On this next take, Ian, let’s have more.” So instead of seeking even a trace of naturalness, McDiarmid plunged right in and gave his idiotically evil speeches with such fervor that I only thought of Snidely Whiplash, the melodrama villain, two or three times.

Here’s the strange thing. Even though that opening day audience largely understood how bad the writing was – and laughed out loud and even cheered for the absolutely worst lines – they still got a sense of fulfilment out of watching everything come together.

I’m glad I saw it.

And, incredibly enough, I will almost certainly see it again. And buy the DVD.

So many of us will do that, in fact, that Mr. Lucas will no doubt think that we think his movie was triumphantly good.

Well, that’s one of the nice things about having supreme power over your own kingdom, as Mr. Lucas has: You can so easily convince yourself that the people love you.

[alexlannin]

David Brin goes on and on about Lucas and Star Wars too..... what's the deal with Science Fiction writers bitching about moaning about Star Wars?

Kinda reeks of envy IMO... which is funny since they're both sucessful writers who should be above criticizing other people's work...
They've been doing that since the first movie came out in 1977. Ellison was especially harsh in his reviews. I think what gets science fiction writers riled up is that these aren't science fiction, there's really very little applicable science in them.

[The Human Target]

Actually I think he convinced me to be a Jedi. Asshole.

[Brendan]

Boo Hoo.... sorry, I'm just so anti-creator-bashing-creator that I can't get behind this stuff.... be a professional... if you don't like the movies, then instead of writing articles and essays about how "flawed" they are, spend that time writing something better....

It just sounds like they're jumping up and down flairing their arms about begging for attention: "Hey! Lookit me! I wrote something better! Don't pay attention to him! He sucks! I'm better!"

It's like Bendis yelling: "Don't read that Geoff Johns book! It's not perfect! My books are!"

Ugh.

Bravo, sir. I agree with everything you wrote. Well stated.

[Thudpucker]

Boo Hoo.... sorry, I'm just so anti-creator-bashing-creator that I can't get behind this stuff.... be a professional... if you don't like the movies, then instead of writing articles and essays about how "flawed" they are, spend that time writing something better....

It just sounds like they're jumping up and down flairing their arms about begging for attention: "Hey! Lookit me! I wrote something better! Don't pay attention to him! He sucks! I'm better!"

It's like Bendis yelling: "Don't read that Geoff Johns book! It's not perfect! My books are!"

Ugh.

I agree, it's not the creators at fault, but the Publishers, There should have been enough room for every type of Sci-fi - but many Publishers decided to only focus on the most profitable one, which left writters hating each other instead of the people at fault.

[Brendan]

I agree, it's not the creators at fault, but the Publishers, There should have been enough room for every type of Sci-fi - but many Publishers decided to only focus on the most profitable one, which left writters hating each other instead of the people at fault.

That's not entirely true. (I'm a SF/Fantasy editor.)

The kinds of science-fiction that Card, Bring, Ellison, and the like write is still widely published. It just isn't widely purchased --- at least nearly in the amount of Star Wars, Star Trek, etc. And that is exactly why they whine.

[xyzzy]

That's not entirely true. (I'm a SF/Fantasy editor.)

The kinds of science-fiction that Card, Bring, Ellison, and the like write is still widely published. It just isn't widely purchased --- at least nearly in the amount of Star Wars, Star Trek, etc. And that is exactly why they whine.

It's really no different than people on this board complaining about the big sales of X-Men/Spidey/Wolverine/Batman and how quality titles like Y: The Last Man or Sleeper or whatever get neglected.

So I don't know why everyone's getting all huffy.

[FedEx Fanboy]

I wonder if Orson Scott Card has ever had a Blow Job...

Yea, I don't think so either. :P

[Corwin: Bear Fighter]

Boo Hoo.... sorry, I'm just so anti-creator-bashing-creator that I can't get behind this stuff.... be a professional... if you don't like the movies, then instead of writing articles and essays about how "flawed" they are, spend that time writing something better....

It just sounds like they're jumping up and down flairing their arms about begging for attention: "Hey! Lookit me! I wrote something better! Don't pay attention to him! He sucks! I'm better!"

It's like Bendis yelling: "Don't read that Geoff Johns book! It's not perfect! My books are!"

Ugh.


Wow, talk about going over the top.
Let me first clarify that I find Card to be a pretentious dick more often than not. Just want to get that out of the way, so you don't make the assumption that I love the guy and blah blah blah...
Anyway, I'm curious as to what is so bad about creators criticizing other creators and their work? Isn't such criticism integral to the creative process? Is that not how we, as artists, improve our own work?
There's this mindset among people that criticism is a terrible thing that nobody should have to receive. Even the word 'criticism' has negative connotations. But anybody who has ever created a piece of art, be it a painting, a book, or a film, could tell you that criticism is key to their own improvement. Yeah, it hurts sometimes, and there are those out there who seem to deliver only the negative criticism, but nobody became a better writer by having everyone tell them everything they did was genius. The great masters didn't paint and sculpt their masterpieces by only being told nice things.
And there is certainly nobody at all who should be considered "above" criticism, be it giving or receiving. I don't care how "professional" they may be. If they're a professional artist in any medium, it's not just their right, but their goddamned duty to criticize work.

[BriRedfern]

The existence of the monastic demands is crucial to the story. Without the conflict of the Jedis and Padme, Anakin could eat his cake and have it too. When he pursues love, he falls into evil's sway. I'd hardly say the discipline is vague in what it demands: Moderate your emotions, reach out beyond your physical form, don't be a dick. If anything it's just a new measure to ward off the Seven Deadly Sins. That's not the leanings of a typical teenager, but suggests a more mature philosophy. Either way, the reason many teens may find it attractive is because, unlike some of the religions they may have been raised under, the Jedi don't say people who disagree with them are hellbound.

Dude, Moderate your emotions, reach beyond your physical form, and don't be a dick are all really, REALLY vague suggestions.

[DonFanucci]

Wow, talk about going over the top.
Let me first clarify that I find Card to be a pretentious dick more often than not. Just want to get that out of the way, so you don't make the assumption that I love the guy and blah blah blah...
Anyway, I'm curious as to what is so bad about creators criticizing other creators and their work? Isn't such criticism integral to the creative process? Is that not how we, as artists, improve our own work?
There's this mindset among people that criticism is a terrible thing that nobody should have to receive. Even the word 'criticism' has negative connotations. But anybody who has ever created a piece of art, be it a painting, a book, or a film, could tell you that criticism is key to their own improvement. Yeah, it hurts sometimes, and there are those out there who seem to deliver only the negative criticism, but nobody became a better writer by having everyone tell them everything they did was genius. The great masters didn't paint and sculpt their masterpieces by only being told nice things.
And there is certainly nobody at all who should be considered "above" criticism, be it giving or receiving. I don't care how "professional" they may be. If they're a professional artist in any medium, it's not just their right, but their goddamned duty to criticize work.

If Card and Brin were colleagues of Lucas... if they were filmmakers and if their "criticisms" were being given in a forum where it could be concidered constructive, then I'd agree with you... However, Brin and Card almost seem like they're on a crusade to put down the guys work... and show the "world" how they're storytelling ability is above his....

Think of it this way.

I'm a letterer working in the comic industry... if I wrote long diatribe on my website or any public forum about how so-and-so letterer is bad and flawed, and how their work is just filled with bad technique, that would be soooooo unprofessional it's not even funny. And it would cost me work and just ruin my reputation in the industry (however miniscule it may be).....

And I do see lettering that I think is bad, but I'm not going to write article after article about how and why it is.... if I did, it would be a asshole of the highest degree.

Card, Brin and Lucas aren't creating work in some kind of Medici environment.... and Card and Brin certainly aren't giving Lucas story advice in good will, in hopes that it makes him a better writer.... they're standing on a soapbox telling everyone that will listen that he sucks....

[Brendan]

If Card and Brin were colleagues of Lucas... if they were filmmakers and if their "criticisms" were being given in a forum where it could be concidered constructive, then I'd agree with you... However, Brin and Card almost seem like they're on a crusade to put down the guys work... and show the "world" how they're storytelling ability is above his....

Think of it this way.

I'm a letterer working in the comic industry... if I wrote long diatribe on my website or any public forum about how so-and-so letterer is bad and flawed, and how their work is just filled with bad technique, that would be soooooo unprofessional it's not even funny. And it would cost me work and just ruin my reputation in the industry (however miniscule it may be).....

And I do see lettering that I think is bad, but I'm not going to write article after article about how and why it is.... if I did, it would be a asshole of the highest degree.

Card, Brin and Lucas aren't creating work in some kind of Medici environment.... and Card and Brin certainly aren't giving Lucas story advice in good will, in hopes that it makes him a better writer.... they're standing on a soapbox telling everyone that will listen that he sucks....

Again, sir, you are completely and totally correct.

[JoshM]

Even the afterlife is reserved for the few, the proud, the Jedi. As we learned at the end of Return of the Jedi, even the most dark-side-serving of ex-Jedi mass murderers can, with a single “good” act like refusing to murder his own son (which even the most evil men generally avoid), earn the right to eternal life as the equal of true saints like Yoda and Obi-Wan.

Mormons (like Card) also believe that mass murders like Hitler will go to the Celestial Kingdom (the highest level of Heaven) if they accept the Mormon Church as "the true church".

Hypocrite.

[andyjoe]

JoshM,
that statement is incorrect.

As a mormon, I would know.
plus, no one here on earth knows where 'they will go', thats not for us to decide or spectulate.


check your yourself.

:P

AJ

[Thudpucker]

Mormons (like Card) also believe that mass murders like Hitler will go to the Celestial Kingdom (the highest level of Heaven) if they accept the Mormon Church as "the true church".

Hypocrite.

I am also a Mormon, and you are wrong.

Do not insult people based on their relegion if you do not know what you are talking about.

[Corwin: Bear Fighter]

If Card and Brin were colleagues of Lucas... if they were filmmakers and if their "criticisms" were being given in a forum where it could be concidered constructive, then I'd agree with you... However, Brin and Card almost seem like they're on a crusade to put down the guys work... and show the "world" how they're storytelling ability is above his....

Think of it this way.

I'm a letterer working in the comic industry... if I wrote long diatribe on my website or any public forum about how so-and-so letterer is bad and flawed, and how their work is just filled with bad technique, that would be soooooo unprofessional it's not even funny. And it would cost me work and just ruin my reputation in the industry (however miniscule it may be).....

And I do see lettering that I think is bad, but I'm not going to write article after article about how and why it is.... if I did, it would be a asshole of the highest degree.

Card, Brin and Lucas aren't creating work in some kind of Medici environment.... and Card and Brin certainly aren't giving Lucas story advice in good will, in hopes that it makes him a better writer.... they're standing on a soapbox telling everyone that will listen that he sucks....

How would Brin and Card being filmmakers make this any different and/or better?
If this sort of thing is considered unprofessional and would supposedly cost someone their job, how is it that Byrne, Ellis, and Loeb keep getting work? Does being good and/or well known in your profession automatically exempt you?

[alexlannin]

I am also a Mormon, and you are wrong.

Do not insult people based on their relegion if you do not know what you are talking about.
Really Thud?
You surprise me more and more everytime I hear about your life.

[JoshM]

I am Mormon and both of you are liars.

[DonFanucci]

How would Brin and Card being filmmakers make this any different and/or better?
If this sort of thing is considered unprofessional and would supposedly cost someone their job, how is it that Byrne, Ellis, and Loeb keep getting work? Does being good and/or well known in your profession automatically exempt you?

Actually, if they were filmmakers, it wouldn't make a difference.... so I take that back... even if they were, though... it would still be a dickhead move.

And the reason Byrne, Ellis and Loeb can pull this stuff off and get work is because their names are Byrne, Ellis and Loeb. Their established, and pretty much legends in the industry.... they sell books and make money for their respective employers.

I can't even believe that someone can think that this kind of stuff isn't unprofessional... it baffles me, honestly.

[alexlannin]

Actually, if they were filmmakers, it wouldn't make a difference.... so I take that back... even if they were, though... it would still be a dickhead move.

And the reason Byrne, Ellis and Loeb can pull this stuff off and get work is because their names are Byrne, Ellis and Loeb. Their established, and pretty much legends in the industry.... they sell books and make money for their respective employers.

I can't even believe that someone can think that this kind of stuff isn't unprofessional... it baffles me, honestly.
I suppose I didn't find the stuff I read about the first Star Wars was that a Science Fiction magazine had asked them to review the movie, and Harlan Ellison had a movie review column in the LA Weekly at the time. One thing I remember distinctly though is Ray Bradbury basically saying no comment, which was a classy move.

[Thudpucker]

Really Thud?
You surprise me more and more everytime I hear about your life.

Yea, not too many hippie Mormons around :p

I was raised Mormon, but I have been inactive for a long time now, about 12 years. But my Parents are still very active in that Church, and if there was an organized Religion I would join it would be that.

I'm more general Christian Budhist than anything else right now though.

[TheTravis!]

I actually have found myself agreeing with every fucking thing Card has written about Star Wars. Which makes me want to go hide and cry.

[Thudpucker]

I am Mormon and both of you are liars.

:lol: :lol:

Uh, ok.

[andyjoe]

JoshM,

good for you.
you definately do not understand the doctrine of the church you prescribe to. I would if I were you, investigate more fully what our church teaches. Start with the basics.

good luck

Andy