The Lost Book of Nostradamus

[enobarbus]

Tonight at 9:00 EDT on the History Channel

I predict you'll enjoy it!


Could it be that Nostradamus, the "go to" prophet of all time, is reaching forward into the 21st century to give us a last warning? Is it already too late?

In 1994, Italian journalist Enza Massa was at the Italian National Library in Rome conducting research on old texts, when she stumbled upon an unusual find in its stacks; a mysterious manuscript dating to 1629. The name of the book was surprising: NOSTRADAMUS VATINICIA CODE. On the inside of the book was the name of the author, in indelible ink—Michel de Notredame—the prophet Nostradamus. This find was particularly remarkable; the manuscript included over eighty watercolor illustrations that were painted by the master prophet himself. Contained in the pages of the book are cryptic, bizarre images that some say are prophecies of our future. Letters, symbolic objects, banners, candles, crosses, and even a burning tower are all included in the manuscript. Are these images visual manifestations of his quatrains, which extend to the 21st century, as some say? How did this book come to be in the library? Why was this book hidden for over 400 years? And are these images so frightening that Nostradamus deliberately hid them, as some say, until their time was near?

This special will follow the investigative trail of how the manuscript came to be found in the archives, and exactly how it got there. The story will also give new insight into the life of Nostradamus—his relationship with his son, Cesar, and his connection to the Vatican—in particular, Pope Urban VIII, who knew about this manuscript and in whose possession it was for many years.

[Thomas Mauer]

Oh geez, History Channel sucks! Sensationalist drive-through "history" fuckers. :mad:

[Brad N.]

Oh geez, History Channel sucks! Sensationalist drive-through "history" fuckers. :mad:

I agree. What a crock of horseshit.

[Lanowar]

Nostradamus was a man who wrote a bunch of stuff that people are eager to shoehorn into modern events and make sense. See the practise of die hard Nostradamus followers have of reverseing names, adding new letters or flipping letters about to get the name they want.

Also see changing elements when they don't happen, most Nostradamus followers thought the Anti-Christ was Ayatullah Khomeini until he died then it turns into Saddam Hussein. I suspect now it soon be told it's Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and so on and so forth.

[Jason California]

I agree. What a crock of horseshit.

Maybe one of the quatrains predicts that you will have said that...


" And Bran will have seen it for horse shit"

[nick maynard]

come on guys, its all in good fun.

[AAlgar]

Anyone remember that pseudo-documentary movie hosted by Orson Welles? The Man Who Saw Tomorrow, or something like that? HBO used to show it every other day for most of the 80s. I was looking for that on DVD and it doesn't seem to be available. :(

[WillieLee]

come on guys, its all in good fun.

Perpetuating stupidity is not a good idea.

[Jason California]

come on guys, its all in good fun.


I am sure it will be entertaining. Just like those end of the world scenario shows they have.

[Thomas Mauer]

come on guys, its all in good fun.

As a historian, I hate the "science light" crap the History Channel mostly peddles. This is no exception.

[Brad N.]

Perpetuating stupidity is not a good idea.

Exactly. Especially on The "History" Channel.

[enobarbus]

See the practise of die hard Nostradamus followers have of reverseing names, adding new letters or flipping letters about to get the name they want.

Try THIS one on for size. It reads like the prime directive:


LEGIS CANTIO CONTRA INEPTOS CRITICOS
Qui legent hosce versus, maturè censunto,
Profanum vulgus et inscium ne attrectato:
Omnesque Astrologi, Blennis, Barbari procul sunto,
Qui aliter facit, is rite sacer esto.

What's really interesting about this discovery is the timing of it all - not two weeks after the revelation of the Vatican ts. of the Templar trials of 1307-1313.

The original title of The Da Vinci Code was... ???

BTW: Have you read Foucault's Pendulum?

[Thomas Mauer]

BTW: Have you read Foucault's Pendulum?

I still have to. Isn't it about how a guy overhears and misinterprets two knights talking which brings about a wrong perception of the Templars that then leads to their abolition and annihilation?

Eco rocks. I hope to read this book before the end of the year.

[enobarbus]

As a historian, I hate the "science light" crap the History Channel mostly peddles. This is no exception.

What's really interesting here is the symbology.

As you may know, this is virtually a continuation of the work of

Rene d'Anjou.

We already knew that Michel de Notredame's grandfather was Rene d'Anjou's physician. Coincidence? I think not.

This is a major discovery.

We may be closer to proving that Nostradamus was acting as the set-up man for Freemasonry. We already have proof that he was a crypto-Protestant.

BTW: J.J. Abrams had a lot of fun with this Nostradamus stuff in the first season of Alias. It's all in fun, really; and it can also be an entertaining academic exercise.

For example: How many men stood in the way of Henri Navarre's ascension to the throne of France? This is one of the most important prophecies, as Navarre was a total longshot, and Michel was "backing" him as early as 1557, which is incredible. This is a young man who would barely escape the worst massacre in European history, so what chance did he really have of becoming king? (Just an example.)

[Sy-Klone]

Anyone remember that pseudo-documentary movie hosted by Orson Welles? The Man Who Saw Tomorrow, or something like that?

:wave:

I do. I haven't seen it in years, though. But when I was a kid, it freaked me out.

I'm fascinated by subject matter like this, but I don't put much stock in the predictions of Nostradamus.

[AAlgar]

:wave:

I do. I haven't seen it in years, though. But when I was a kid, it freaked me out.

I'm fascinated by subject matter like this, but I don't put much stock in the predictions of Nostradamus.

Nah, me neither. I was way more freaked out by Welles, honestly.

[Thomas Mauer]

I have to admit that I gotta bone up on French history in general (my focus is on the German territories), but reading into Nostradamus after the fact is just as easy as fundies reading current day events into Bible verses, especially Revelations. It's been done for centuries, and you get out of the interpretations what you put into them. These people are actively looking for "proof," after all.

That said, I highly enjoyed the Rambaldi plot in Alias. But the sensationalism of "The History Channel" is really off-putting. Recently they had a show called "The Universe" in their roster.

The first episode was about the sun, and throughout 3/4 of the episode, they had doomsayer teasers of how solar flares supposedly could wipe out civilization if we were in the path of one of the big ones - which we're about to be again. Almost as an aside, they mentioned that a solar flare like that hit Earth in 1857 already, and did that wipe out civilization? No.

I understand they need to make ratings and that's why they are more entertainment than educational, but for a channel to call itself that, you'd think they would at least try.

[Sy-Klone]

Nah, me neither. I was way more freaked out by Welles, honestly.

All I honestly remember about it was Orson Welles sitting at a desk making scary eyes at the camera, and his spooky narration over stock footage.

[enobarbus]

I still have to. Isn't it about how a guy overhears and misinterprets two knights talking which brings about a wrong perception of the Templars that then leads to their abolition and annihilation?

Eco rocks. I hope to read this book before the end of the year.

Name of the Rose is still one my favourite books. But Foucault is even more astonishing in its range. It's a book about everything. One of the plot springboards hinges on the infamous "haywain" quatrain, as it pertains to the hiding place of the Templar's treasure. (This might be of interest to the Dan Brown 'cult following." :mistrust:

When Dan Brown was researching DVC, his wife used to audit a Nostr discussion group I participated in. There's no doubt that he drew "inspiration" from these free exchanges, and converted these ideas into gold. Now that's what you call ALCHEMY... and more power to him. (I still think the first title, "The Nostradamus Code," would've been better, although Da Vinci has considerably more credibility.

And speaking of Grand Masters, there is this incredible discovery (badly translated from the French):


Certain historians suspected Nostradamus, without obvious proof, of being a secret agent in the service of the Valois family. However, by studying his correspondence one realizes that he used a system of coding to be understood only by his interlocutors. The proof may be found in a letter written to him by Ioannes Bergius, disciple and friend of Jules-César Scaliger, October 15 1563, where this Bergius suggests to him:

écrivez seulement en code ce que vous pensez devoir cacher. J’ai salué pour vous tous ceux que vous m’avez demandé de saluer...

Is this sufficient to make of him a secret agent to the dominating influence? Weren't word games used in the XVIe century? For definitively cataloguing him in a secret circle, one would need more tangible proof. However this part, we have it. Quoted anecdotally in the majority of the biographies, it gives a report on the passage of Nostradamus in the town of Turin during 1556, but of its meaning nothing is known [as word]. As it has remained silent, we will make it speak.

At the beginning of XIXe century, a certain Mr. Carrera, while strolling through the suburbs of Turin, noticed a marble plate. He read there: 1556 / NOSTRE DAMVS A LOGE ICI/ ON IL HA LE PARADIS LENFER/ LE PURGATOIRE IE MA PELLE/ LA VICTOIRE QVI MHONORE/ AVRALA GLOIRE QVI ME/ MEPRISE OVRA LA/ RVINE HNTIERE.

This plate undoubtedly indicated the passage in this house of a famous visit; but no one seemed to know the reason for it. This account was indeed published in two articles of the Mail of Turin (n° 251 of December 26, 1807, p. 1177 and n° 260 of January 29, 1808, p. 1209). It announced the curious inscription found above the gate of a house, « Cascina (ferme) Morozzo, via Michele Lessone, numero civico 68 » within one half-mile in the North-West of Turin. The business was, however, without continuation...

Some generations later, in 1934, Coraddo Pagliani in an article of the municipal bulletin of the town of Turin (Della Rassegna mensile Municipal), remade mention of the preliminary inscription associating a photographic stereotype there. In France, in 1939, Charles Reynaud-Plense, in a new edition of Centuries, reproduced the document, without more comment... And yet this plate is one of the only material proofs of Michel de Nostredame's visit to this city; and especially of a significant mark in his initiatory search. Because in Turin, in the year of grace 1556, he was received as a 'Master'...

In 1555, having published his almanac for the year and his first Centuries, Nostradamus is already famous. In August, the king (Henri II) receives him at the court. After a short interview, he sets out again incognito, provided with meagre recompense; but the powerful one, the redoubtable queen Catherine de Médicis will always remain in contact with him. She will consult with him on several occasions. Nostradamus visited Italy more than once, but one journey in particular is undoubtedly more prestigious. In 1556, to Turin, which will become capital of Savoy three years later, he will be installed as Grand Master of the Order of the very secret Prieuré of Sion.

This plate, discovered by Mr. Carrera, was quoted without comment by biographers who did not know how to interpret it. In 1993, a stroke of luck, following the reading of L’Enigme Sacrée, put me on the track. The authors of this work explain that a very closed circle governed the installation of the Command of the Temple at the time of the capture of Jerusalem by Godefroi de Bouillon in 1099. This order was secretly associated with the Templars until 1188, when it [broke into] several denominations: Priory of Sion, Command of Sion, Ormus and Ordre of the Rosicrucian brotherhood Veritas (the 13 members at the top of the hierarchy still currently named the thirteen Rosicrucian brotherhood). Until its creation in 1188, the Command of the Temple and the Priory of Sion had the same Grand Masters.

From 1188, there is schism, the two Orders separate. While giving in their book the list of the Grand Masters who followed one another until 1963, the authors notice that the two sources from which they drew their information differ on only one Grand Master, who governed the destiny from 1527 to 1575, Ferdinand de Gonzague; and oddly, I should add, he is a contemporary of Nostradamus. Here the text: " With his name, we were confronted with the only obviously false information of all the documents of the Priory".

According to the list of the Grand Masters of Sion appearing in the " Secret Files ", Ferrante (Ferdinand de Gonzague) indeed would have governed intended command until the end of his life in 1575. However according to other sources, he would have died close to Brussels around 1557, under murky circumstances it is true, and being able to create impression that he had only been presumed dead..."

They add: " This is why we cannot prevent ourselves from thinking that it is not a question in the event of an error, but rather of a means disguised to transmit a significant message, because in the n° 4 of " Circuit " (one of the denominations of the review of the Priory), one can read this small quite strange message..."

Received message... This message will remain enigmatic for the authors of this book, it will not be the same for us if we remind ourselves about the inscription of Turin. Here is the text: "... Ferrante was to die on November 15 1557, but already relieved by convent of Turin into 1556, his replacement had not posed any problem. Michel was during ten years to mark the destiny of the world. His death sowed during nine years the discord in the Order, and the interregnum was ensured by the 'triumvirat', whose Nicolas Froumenteau and the duke of Longueville were the dignitaries..."

This Michel is not unlike that Nostradamus who did indeed die ten years later, in 1566 (on July 1). The terms employed are unambiguous, raise them: "his replacement had not posed any problem", on this date the name of Nostradamus circulated throughout all the courses of Europe; "to mark the destiny of the world", indeed he wrote this destiny for his time and for the future - thanks to his prophecies. His death caused a rupture or a schism in the Order and one can easily imagine why. Who would have the audacity after him, to occupy the perilous seat?

This small text naming only two figures of the triumvirat, it was necessary for us to seek the third. His name is given in one of the genealogical [tables] at the beginning of the book: The dukes of Guise and Lorraine (according to the work of Philippe Tuscan of Plantier). It is probably about Charles of Guise (1525-1574), cardinal of Lorraine, indicated as regent of the Priory of Sion into 1557.

This assumption of Nostradamus [as] Grand Master of the Priory of Sion was transformed into certainty with the discovery, in 1995, of an article signed Pierre Plantard of Saint-Clair published in un hors-série de Nostra [???] in January 1983: " It is in Turin, in 1556, that Nostradamus is initiated with the great secrecy of times to come... But it is only into 1556 that, becoming a Grand Master of the command [ it does not quote which ], this great secrecy was entrusted to him. " and the final sending which cannot leave any doubt by the terms that it employs " Here thus the message of the wise poet of Salon-de-Provence, who perpetuated in his writings the secrecies of hermeticism beyond the centuries to us, announcing the Paradise to us, the Hell or Purgatory... "

Pierre Plantard was at that time Grand Master of the Priory of Sion (1980-1984). He knew the link which linked this marble plate and Nostradamus of which he knows literary work. Many documents or accounts published in L'Enigme Sacrée emanate from him. The authors of L'Enigme Sacrée enumerate 27 Grand Masters but name any only 26. It is thus quite necessary to include Michel de Nostredame as one of them.

But this marble plate could reveal to us different secrecies which were hidden - in plain sight - throughout the centuries. Let us examine it attentively. The nonregular layout of the letters, the differences in their heights, the absence of horizontal alignment Net, testify with a hand which is not that of a professional engraver. The words are cut out in a strange way. Of course, it could have been carried out by a local artist for whom the French language would be dubious. Then these orthographical approximations could be explained. However there is too much awkwardness in this execution so that it is innocent.

Already the contents of the text raise questions. The three states which are mentioned pointing out those of the Divine Comedy of Dante: initiatory spiritual voyage, are supported by the terms " placed ", and not " lived " or " lived ". That supposes that a strange meeting took place in this house. All the more strange since few authors writing on Nostradamus attach it to some circle esoteric or hermetic only it is, and that no currently known circle has the audacity to declare it among its former members (besides some representatives of the Priory of Sion in a buckled form).

Only a thorough analysis can say some to us more. Note once more that one needs sometimes hears what one reads, and also to see what one reads. An example in this plate of what one hears: A LOGE ICI ON = A LOGE I SION.. The name is marked but one can find it by tracing a first vertical starting from the S of NostrE. We meet the only letters: S I P R. Article II of the statutes of the Priory of Sion June 5, 1956 (that is to say 400 years after the visit of Nostradamus in Turin) and signed by Jean Cocteau then Large Master: The command has as a denomination: " Sionis Prioratus " or " Priory of Sion ". Thus recognizes one the signature of SIonis PRioratus. Sion is definitely visible starting from the two letters OS of NOSTRE and N I of ON IL of high on the left.

Jean de Gisors, the first of the list, was elected on August 15 1188, festival of Our-Lady. From 1188 to 1963, the command counted 27 Grand Masters, the men bore the name of Jean; women, Jeanne; their title: Pasteur and Nautonnier. Let us notice that the pope Jean XXIII incarnait the 107e Pastor currency and Nauta of the Prophecy of the popes allotted to St. Malachie. There were thus two Jean XXIII contemporaries, deceased the same year: one Grand Master of the Priory of Sion, Jean Cocteau (1918-1963), other sovereign pontiff, Angelo Roncalli (1958-1963). This last, in the prophecy which was published thirteen years after his death by Pier Carpi, is known to have been initiated in 1935 in Turkey within the order of the Rosicrucian brotherhood.

This membership of Michel de Nostre-Dame, within one of the most secret orders, is still currently loaded with incidences. It does open, however, new horizons on the greatness of personnage; for, if he was elected Grand Master of the Order in 1556, how far back did his affiliation extend? Certainly to a very young age.

Let us note that his surname could play a role predestined in his choice, since the first Grand Master was installed on August 15, the feast of Notre-Dame. Perhaps this same date was instituted as a special day for these particular elections.

Eric Platel d’Armoc



http://www.geocities.com/b_mattys/holyblood/turin.jpg

[AAlgar]

All I honestly remember about it was Orson Welles sitting at a desk making scary eyes at the camera, and his spooky narration over stock footage.

That, and a young me having to look up the word "quatrain" because he said it about eight thousand times.

[Captain Sensation]

so what interesting things were revealed about this lost book?

[lonesomefool]

so what interesting things were revealed about this lost book?

Apparently the world is gonna devolve into a huge religious war. At least, that's what I took from the promos History is showing.

[enobarbus]

All I honestly remember about it was Orson Welles sitting at a desk making scary eyes at the camera, and his spooky narration over stock footage.

Now which one of the Transformers was he?

http://www.sensesofcinema.com/images/04/32/magic_show_3.jpg

[Thomas Mauer]

Apparently the world is gonna devolve into a huge religious war. At least, that's what I took from the promos History is showing.

:-?

Predestination vs. free will -- I'll go with free will, thank you very much.

[enobarbus]

Apparently the world is gonna devolve into a huge religious war. At least, that's what I took from the promos History is showing.

How you could glean that from Michel's symbology, I'll never know.

Let's not forget that he DID correctly predict the Wars of Religion in France, although that would be like predicting the American Civil War in 1855-57.

BTW: If you go to the History ws, you can see the water-colours in great detail. They're actually not bad for an amateur. (But when you consider that Da Vinci was his mentor, you'd expect a lot more.)

[WillieLee]

Does he say where I put my keys?

[Kody]

Here's something a lot of people don't know about Nostradamus. He actually invested the bulk of his profits from publishing into a secret Foundation designed to try and prevent the horrible things he predicted.

This secret Foundation was so successful, it eventually undermined the credibility of the published work. Nostradamus sacrificed his legacy for the greater good. And for that he should be honored.

Sure, the prophesies are cryptic (that was intentional), but the purpose of publishing the work was not to inform the public, it was published to generate revenue for The Foundation. Informing the public of these horrible things would only create panic.

I'm pretty sure the group still exists today. Afterall, history does repeat itself.

[Thomas Mauer]

How you could glean that from Michel's symbology, I'll never know.

Let's not forget that he DID correctly predict the Wars of Religion in France, although that would be like predicting the American Civil War in 1855-57.

BTW: If you go to the History ws, you can see the water-colours in great detail. They're actually not bad for an amateur. (But when you consider that Da Vinci was his mentor, you'd expect a lot more.)

He was talking about what the History Channel promos make it look like. And can you please go into more detail about the bolded part? I'm sure the majority here (me included) don't know his writings by heart.

[Sy-Klone]

Does he say where I put my keys?

I believe he did.

He wrote:

In the seventh year of the millenium
At the Apex of the Farm of Barry Knots.
The Keys of the Lost shall be buried.
Asketh upon Snoopy.

[WillieLee]

I believe he did.

He wrote:

In the seventh year of the millenium
At the Apex of the Farm of Barry Knots.
The Keys of the Lost shall be buried.
Asketh upon Snoopy.

Wait a minute, Snoopy doesn't wear pants...I'm not wearing pants...the keys are in my pants! That Nostradamus knows everything.

[enobarbus]

:-?

Predestination vs. free will -- I'll go with free will, thank you very much.

Free will? Of course we will. Every time.

(Well, at least as "free" as your will can be in an Orwellian society.)

Bear in mind that the big revelation here - hidden in plain sight - is the proof that Michel was actually creating a military code to be used as a blueprint for action by intelligence-gathering cells hidden all over Europe. After what happened to the Templars in 1307, this proto-Masonic cadre wasn't taking any chances. If by chance Michel's book WAS investigated by the Inquisition (which it was, and he WAS "detained" then released ), what would they find? The usual almanac crap that the rural crowd loved even back then.

The most incredible secret to be revealed about The Centuries was - THE SOURCE behind all this. Michel was actually rewriting a book that was authored by one of Germany's greatest minds earlier in the 16th century. Any idea who that might be? (HINT: Some call him the first cryptographer.)

[WillieLee]

Here's something a lot of people don't know about Nostradamus. He actually invested the bulk of his profits from publishing into a secret Foundation designed to try and prevent the horrible things he predicted.

This secret Foundation was so successful, it eventually undermined the credibility of the published work. Nostradamus sacrificed his legacy for the greater good. And for that he should be honored.

Sure, the prophesies are cryptic (that was intentional), but the purpose of publishing the work was not to inform the public, it was published to generate revenue for The Foundation. Informing the public of these horrible things would only create panic.

I'm pretty sure the group still exists today. Afterall, history does repeat itself.

:mistrust:

[enobarbus]

Does he say where I put my keys?

They're in your varsity jacket pocket. (The right one.)

[Thomas Mauer]

Free will? Of course we will. Every time.

(Well, at least as "free" as your will can be in an Orwellian society.)

Bear in mind that the big revelation here - hidden in plain sight - is the proof that Michel was actually creating a military code to be used as a blueprint for action by intelligence-gathering cells hidden all over Europe. After what happened to the Templars in 1307, this proto-Masonic cadre wasn't taking any chances. If by chance Michel's book WAS investigated by the Inquisition (which it was, and he WAS "detained" then released ), what would they find? The usual almanac crap that the rural crowd loved even back then.

The most incredible secret to be revealed about The Centuries was - THE SOURCE behind all this. Michel was actually rewriting a book that was authored by one of Germany's greatest minds earlier in the 16th century. Any idea who that might be? (HINT: Some call him the first cryptographer.)

Dude, are you for real? And is "Michel" your BFF so you call him by his first name? :mistrust:

[Ed Brubaker]

Isn't the coolest thing about Nostradamus that he cured the plague? I think he was the one who discovered the vitamin C in rosehips would help keep you healthy during the Black Plague. Or, am I remembering wrong?

[Thomas Mauer]

Isn't the coolest thing about Nostradamus that he cured the plague? I think he was the one who discovered the vitamin C in rosehips would help keep you healthy during the Black Plague. Or, am I remembering wrong?

The plague was still pretty much a plague a century after he lived. It wasn't until the 18th century that it disappeared in Europe.

[Jason California]

Now which one of the Transformers was he?

http://www.sensesofcinema.com/images/04/32/magic_show_3.jpg

I am surprised no one answered Unicron yet.

[enobarbus]

He was talking about what the History Channel promos make it look like. And can you please go into more detail about the bolded part? I'm sure the majority here (me included) don't know his writings by heart.

Sure. The 9th Century is the best, because it gives you a sense of what's REALLY going on in the poems. What I've done here is distill the lines down to their essence, just to give you some context.

Remember that Michel is using code here, so nothing has a literal meaning. Now we know that symbology is the key to the mystery. All of this imagery can be found in Masonic rituals of the 1700s. This is actually HUGE.

I was able to solve some of the anagrams that had never been decoded, TBOMK.

Look for the word NERSAF (in caps in the original 1557 edition, IIRC). This is for a man named Farnese. Look him up. He's a target.


Know anything about Trithemius? He's the one who started this fire in the first place. And let's not under-estimate the impact of Freemasonry on European history. So these humanists of the 16th century really DID make a difference in the grand scheme of things.

Some of these "prophecies" are actually retroactive - not unlike the Book of Daniel (which was written long after the events "predicted" by Daniel).


At house of translator of Bourc, letters found on table in 09.01. Bourgne, red, white chanu holds the course. Who is the new constable of France? Retro to Anne de Montmorency?

Voice from Mt Aventine advises: "Run like hell!" in 09.02. Blood of the reds appeases anger. From Rimimi, Prato, Colonna expelled. (This is old. Say c13.)

Freakshow. Great cow of Ravenna troubled by fifteen of Farnese's men in 09.03. Twice two-headed at Rome. Great ones left hanging.

Year after 'flood' discoveries, two leaders elected in 09.04. For one, refuge in shadows.

From low to high, he occupies Tyranny of Pisa & Lucca to correct shortcomings of the one before him in 09.05.

The English occupy Guyenne in 09.06, calling it 'Angla-quitaine'. Of Languedoc, Ispalme, Bordeaux named after Barboixitaine.

Warning in 09.07: Evil will come to the one who opens monument and does not close it right away. Best be a Breton or Norman king.

Again, the writings are found. Youngest prince puts father to death in 09.08. Later, remorse - when wolf is found under bed.

Back to temple of Vestals, where eternal flame is found in 09.09. Trouble at Nimes & Toulouse.

Monk, nun's child to death exposed in 09.10. Killed by a bear? Army at Foix & Pamiers. Carcassonne vs Toulouse.

Now the action shifts to the Midi. Focus on Tolosa.

Again, a man is unjustly put to death in 09.11. So great a pestilence comes that the judges must flee. (This is the Servetus execution, which is RETRO.)

They find the likenesses in the lake. The silver of Diane & Mercury discovered (by a sculptor?) in 09.12.

Exiles around Sologne march to (Auxerre?) in 09.13. Two from Modena, cruel of Bologna. Fire... along Durance?

Boiled in caldrons (chaudron) for no crime in 09.14. Seven. Fumes. (Extenuated?) by canon... of Boudeaux?

Reds detained at Perpignan in 09.15. Three cut to pieces and five not sustained by Seigneur & Prelate of Burgundy.

The assembly leaves Castelfranco in 09.16. Ambassadors create schism. People of Riviera in crowd. Great man denied entry to gulf (of Genoa).

The third first in 09.17. Worse than Nero. Bloodshed. Cycle of gold, death, new king, great scandal.

Dauphin's lily taken to Nancy in 09.18. Elector of empire in Flanders. Great Montmorency (obstructed?), delivered to punishment.

Lightning at Mayenne in 09.19. Sun in Leo. Great bastard (issue of) Maine. Fougères?

By night, via forest of Reines (Rennes?) in 09.20. Herne. The white stone. The black monk in grey within Varennes. Elected (head) causes tempest.

The spelling of the place names is... arbitrary.

At high temple of Blois - St Solonne in 09.21. Night, bridge at Loire, prelate, king killed. Messenger. Prelature. Whites. Bormeant?

King & court within temple facing palace in 09.22. In garden, Duke of Mantua & of Alba... dagger, talk, palace.

Younger prince playing outside in 09.23. Something falls from roof and strikes his head. His father (king) at temple St Solonne. Consecrates sacred smoke of feast.

Two little princes carried off from palace in 09.24. Through Orleans, Paris, St Denis cloisters. The nun?

Crossing bridges, coming near rosiers. Sooner than expected. The Spaniards to Béziers in 09.25.

Nice departs under name of harsh letters in 09.26. The great cappe presents his own case. Approaching Voltai, at wall of green capers.

The Dauphin is struck by (guardian of woods?) at the bridge in 09.27. He goes far beyond duke's borders.

Fleet from Marseille to Venice in 09.28. March against Pannonia. Leave gulf and bay of Illyria. Devastation for Sicily.

Man wishes to abandon place (not quite) taken in 09.29. Fire in swamps at Charlieu. St Quentin retaken. Balez=Calais? 1558?

To PUOLA 09.30 & St Nicolas, Norman perishes in gulf of Quaerno. Head of Byz cries for help from Cadiz & great Philip II.

Notice how Michel doesn't hestitate to use CERTAIN proper names - quite clearly.

Quakes at Martara and floods over England in 09.31. In temple at Easter, abysses opened.

Porphyry column found in 09.32. Capitoline inscriptions at base. Strength of Rome tested. Fleet agitated at Mitylene.

Hercules, king of Rome & (Annemark) in 09.33. From Gaul, three 'Guion'. Italy trembles & waters of St Mark. First, over all monarchs?

Married... with mitre, in 09.34. By 500, a traitor is given title. Narbonne & Saulce.

Ferdinand (Charles V's brother) abandons flower and follows the Macedonian in 09.35. March against the Myrmidons.

Lightning. A great King taken by one 'Joyne' at Easter in 09.36. Three brothers are murdered.

Dec. Bridges & mills wrecked in 09.37. Flood along Garonne. Toulouse in confusion. Place before Matronne (Celtic goddess) not known.

Entry at Blais by La Rochelle & English in 09.38. Great Aemethon? Not far from Gaul, awaiting the men of Gaul. Help Narbonne.

In Albisola - to Carcara(?) in 09.39. Night attack on Savona by the Gascon.

Deception at St Quentin in 09.40. The Flemish attacked at abbey. The two young (princes?) hit, the guards killed.

I wish this wacky poet would get the bloody names right.

Chyren returns in 09.41 to take Avignon. Letters from Rome. Embassy from (Chinon). Carpentras seized by black duke.

Barcelona, Genoa, Venice, Sicily & Monaco vs Barbary pirates in 09.42. They drive them back - all the way to Tunis.

Crusader army & Ismaelites in 09.43. Navy of Riviera? Ten galleys.

Signs in sky. Warning to Geneva in 09.44. "Leave!" Enemies of RAYPOZ (Calvin?) are to be exterminated.

Mendosvs=Vendosme attains empire in 09.45. Piedmont, Picardy, Paris.

Omination. (Read the signs in the flesh.) Warning to cardinals in 09.46. "Flee Toulouse!"

An infamous speech. Crowd not pleased. Change of monarch... or monarch changes in 09.47. Face each other in prison?

Winter. Great city of maritime ocean freezes in 09.48.

Ghent & Brussels vs Antwerp in 09.49. Senate(?) of London puts a king to death.

Mendosvs (Vendosme) returns in 09.50. Norlaris (Lorraisn) somewhat displaced. To fear... Barbarossa?

Now THESE are definitely anagrams. (Accept no subtitutes.)

Sects vs reds in 09.51. Those who plot are at point of death, expect one (Calvin) who will ruin all.

Peace approaches... from one coast? War throughout all of France in 09.52.

Three chimneys (for the furnace?) as young Nero returns (sort of) in 09.53. Three of his blood put him to death.

At Corsini (near Ravenna) they plunder the lady in 09.54. Legate of Lisbon in deep sea. Under hidden rocks 70 souls ravished.

Mer, Mar & Jup in 9.55. A year after war (prepared in west), there comes plague that none survive.

Army near Noudan to Goussanville. Leaves flag at 'Maiotes' in 09.56. Converted instantly, more than a thousand. Looking for two?

Law. A king rests at Dreux in 09.57. Anathema? Kills himself.

Three red ones watched at Vitry in 09.58. Reds killed, not noir (king?). By Bretons reassured.

At la Ferté he takes the 'Vidame'... Nicol(e)? To great Louis (XI?) is born one (Charles VIII?) who gives Burgundy to Bretons in 09.59.

Barbary pirates vs Dalmatia in 09.60. Great Ismael. Aid from Portugal.

What the hell was he thinking when he wrote this gibberish?

Plunder taken from the new city (Naples?) in 09.61. Several from Malta by deed of Messina are locked up.

Great one of Cheramon Agora supported (by Crusaders?)in 09.62. Opium & Mandrake. Raugon released Oct 3.

Under Mars. Lamentations near Narbonne, Bayonne & Foix in 09.63.

Aemethon returns to cross Pyrs in 09.64. In March, Narbonne does not resist. Cap(et) has no secure land.

Corner of moon. To a foreign land in 09.65. Scandal of unripe fruit? Blame for some, praise for others.

Again, low made high & high made low in 09.66. Preparation for voyage torments first fruit. War ends, civil process, debates.

Assembly at Isère in 09.67. Roman faith gathers against the crest.

Obscure noble from Montélimar. Evil at Saone & Rhone in 09.68. Soldiers hide in woods on Dec 13. Never such a horrible throne.

The proud of Grenoble hide in mountains. Beyond Lyon & Vienne, great hail and locusts in 09.69.

Hidden armour at Lyon on day of Sacrement in 09.70. Those of Vienne vs Latin cantons, Macon does not lie.

This stuff is so obscure, it's positively unfathomable.

Animals in sacred places. Carcassonne it suitable for disgrace in 09.71.

Saturn's cycles. Again, holy temples polluted by Tolosian Senate in 09.72.

King enters Foix , reigns less than one revolution of Sat (30 yrs) in 09.73. Heart of White Turban banished to Byz.

Sacrifice oxen? Return to honours of Artemis in 09.74. Corpses to Vulcan.

From Abraxia & Thrace, people at sea helped by the French in 09.75. Perpetually, in Provence, vestiges if their customs.

Nero's back! Black (king?) & bloody Rapax in 09.76. Between two rivers=Lyon. Gary Somai sez: Joyne chaulveron=Jean Ca(u)lvin. (I think he's right.)

Kingdom take, King conspires, the Lady taken to her death in 09.77. No pardon for queen's son. Mistress as strong as the consort?

Beautiful Greek woman has many suitors in 09.78. Moved to Spanish kingdon, taken captive, miserable death.

Deception. Leader of fleet makes timid leave galleys in 09.79.

The Duke wishes to kill his followers in 09.80. Strongest sent to foreign lands. His tyranny ruins Pisa & Lucca. Barbary pirates without wine.

Basically, the main themes are still rolling.

The King is ambushed on three sides in 09.81. Coqueluches=hooded ones. Lemprin? Translator fails. [cf.09.01]

City under siege in 09.82. Flood & plague.

Great theatre ruined by quake in 09.83. God of the infidel?

King completes slaughter after finding his origin in 09.84. Flood opens marble tomb of great Roma of Medusine insignia.

By Guyenne, Languedoc & Rhone, from Agen, etc. By the opening through faith through king, Marseille hold his throne. Battle near St-Pol-de-Mausole in 09.85.

To Chartres. Pause near Pont d'Anthony in 09.86. Seven for peace?

Temple near hermitage in 09.87. Duc d'Etamples, by the ruse he invented, example given to prelate of Mt Lehori.

Deception. Calais, Arras help Théouanne in 09.88. Soldiers of Savoy to Roanne. This rout is old news.

Fortune favours Philip for seven years against Arabs in 09.89. Young Ogmios puts down his strength.

Deception. Captain of great Germany offers false help to Pannonia in 09.90.

You're losin' me, Doc! I'm just plain baffled.

Pestilence at Perithus & Nicopolis in 09.91. Takes Peninsula & Macedonia.

Deception. King wants to enter new city in 09.92.

Over the walls of Bourges, Hercules strikes the Macedonian in 09.93.

Deception. Bratislava trembles in 09.94. Lubeck & Meissen hold for barbarian side.

Holding out for help from elite of Milan in 09.95. Duke of Milan?

Duke enters city by persuasion in 09.96. Army, denied entry, sneaks in through weak gates. Bloodshed.

By sea, armies in three parts divided in 09.97. Searching for Elysian Fields.

The afflicted, by fault of only tainted one. People of Lyon forced to surrender to leader of 'Molite' in 09.98.

North wind causes siege to be raised in 09.99. Last help at their frontier.

The fire in the ships of the West, the fleet ruined in 09.100. A new code. Victory in a fog.

What is the deal with all this fighting at sea?

- fin de siecle -

[enobarbus]

Isn't the coolest thing about Nostradamus that he cured the plague? I think he was the one who discovered the vitamin C in rosehips would help keep you healthy during the Black Plague. Or, am I remembering wrong?

He didn't actually cure it, Ed. In fact (and you better sit down for this)

Michel was actually kicked out of med school at Montpellier.

So Michel had to settle for the title of pharmacist. (And man, did he ever love his absinthe!)

And guess who one of his classmates was at med school? (This will totally blow your mind!)

This was way back in the late 1520s, and my memory gets a bit fuzzy around the early 1550s :Oops:

BTW: Michel could not even save his own wife and kids from the plague, so I guess his radical ideas didn't work - at first.

BTW: Thanks for YOUR incredible work. Please keep writing your astonishing books and I will keep buying them in vast quantities.

[Thomas Mauer]

Okay, uh, I was actually hoping you would post or write a short essay about how he "predicted the wars of religion" instead of doing a bunch of one-liners that apparently have some of your commentary attached at the end (though I can't be sure). You know, something laying out the facts in context and then drawing conclusions. I apologize if this comes off as confrontational, not my intention. I'd really like to know what your thought process is here. Just giving the raw data you're working with doesn't help me, though. :(

[WillieLee]

Cocaine's a hell of a drug.

[enobarbus]

The plague was still pretty much a plague a century after he lived. It wasn't until the 18th century that it disappeared in Europe.

No, actually Ed's got this right... although the real success fighting the plague was PROBABLY the result of improved sanitation and hygiene c.1550. Now back in the 1520s, it was REALLY bad, and that was actually one of Michel's first practicums. The med students were sent from town to town in these crazy costumes, trying to cure the bubonic plague. (And good luck with that.) Michel de Nostredame was a radical, and when he returned to Montpellier to wrap up his degree, he got into heated arguments with the authorities about HOW to treat plague victims. They were so pissed off at him, they kicked him out.

BTW: Have you seen The Tudors? They actually did a great ep about the plague in England. It was everywhere, of course. Michel's career met with disaster at Agen in the 1530s, and that's when he lost his family. After that, he was recruited for intel work, and that's when he became a secret agent.

I shit you not.

But really, Michel DID make a lot of progress treating plague in Salon in the 1540s, and he did invest in a big canal project that brought cleaner water to that area. That seemed to help, obviously.

[lonesomefool]

How you could glean that from Michel's symbology, I'll never know.

Let's not forget that he DID correctly predict the Wars of Religion in France, although that would be like predicting the American Civil War in 1855-57.

BTW: If you go to the History ws, you can see the water-colours in great detail. They're actually not bad for an amateur. (But when you consider that Da Vinci was his mentor, you'd expect a lot more.)

The History promo I saw during Ice Road Truckers showed the words Satan, God, Religion, War.

Yeah....I dont know HOW I could take from that promo that the world is gonna devolve into a religious war :blah:

[enobarbus]

I am surprised no one answered Unicron yet.

"Well, at least JASON remembers me."

http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/j/ap/fb170456-13e4-4e7e-8139-819bfca18a27.hmedium.jpg

[mike black]

Oh geez, History Channel sucks! Sensationalist drive-through "history" fuckers. :mad:

Say what you will, but that channel's done more to document WWII than any high school teacher ever could. :lol:

Hell, they had to create a second channel just to hold all of their WWII shit (Military Channel).

[enobarbus]

Okay, uh, I was actually hoping you would post or write a short essay about how he "predicted the wars of religion"(

Oh man, that would take some time. I've literally hundreds of pages of research to go though here and 1000s of poems, but it's still fun. In fact, I actually have SECRET shit I'm not supposed to discuss, but here I am spilling the beans anyway. Oh well.

The Wars of Religion erupted in the 1560s, but Michel had already predicted that

Henri de Navarre

would prevail.

Nostradamus would read the moles of your back to "predict your future." Catherine de Medici (queen of France, then queen mother) was a big fan of Michel's, and the frickin king of France actually VISITED Michel in 1562, I think... and that's when Michel, at Catherine's request, did the readings for all the kids, including her nephew Henri Navarre, who was only 10 at the time. That's when he told her that her nephew would be king - which meant that all of her sons would die in rapid succession, which they did, in the Wars of Religion.

Is that okay?

BTW: There's actually a famous painting of Michel studying Navarre's body. LMK if you want to see it.

BTW2: Kinda laughed when I thought about what you were asking for... but I'm afraid I'll have to charge you thirty bucks for my Master's thesis. :)

[Thomas Mauer]

No, actually Ed's got this right... although the real success fighting the plague was PROBABLY the result of improved sanitation and hygiene c.1550. Now back in the 1520s, it was REALLY bad, and that was actually one of Michel's first practicums. The med students were sent from town to town in these crazy costumes, trying to cure the bubonic plague. (And good luck with that.) Michel de Nostredame was a radical, and when he returned to Montpellier to wrap up his degree, he got into heated arguments with the authorities about HOW to treat plague victims. They were so pissed off at him, they kicked him out.

Dude, you are so, so wrong. The last big plague in Europe was in Russia in 1771. During the 30 Years War (1618-1848) Europe was continually plagued by the black death. Even later, for example, the guy I wrote my master's thesis about, Otto von Guericke, left Magdeburg in 1680 to live with his son in Hamburg because the plague was nearing the city. It lasted for more than a year and decimated the population quite badly.

Until the late 18th century and the advancement of medical science - and well into the 19th century among the lower classes - most people believed in Galen's and Paracelsus' body images, not our modern understanding of Cartesian anatomy. This included how to treat illnesses and personal hygiene. Until the 18th century, people believed that *water* was a carrier of diseases, which is why people didn't wash. So don't say sanitation and hygiene practices changed 2 to 3 centuries earlier, because that didn't happen at all!

If Nostradamus had found the cure or even a preventative measure for the plague in the mid 16th century, it wouldn't have been the feared sign of the Apocalypse that people in the 17th and early 18th century still saw it as.


BTW: Have you seen The Tudors? They actually did a great ep about the plague in England.
I did, and from a scientific standpoint I have to say my hat's off to the writer/creator of the show.


It was everywhere, of course. Michel's career met with disaster at Agen in the 1530s, and that's when he lost his family. After that, he was recruited for intel work, and that's when he became a secret agent.

I shit you not.

But really, Michel DID make a lot of progress treating plague in Salon in the 1540s, and he did invest in a big canal project that brought cleaner water to that area. That seemed to help, obviously.

This here makes me wonder, though, why you brought up "The Tudors." What connection does it have to the point you're trying to make here? While the show is one of the best historical depictions of the period, it's still a piece of fiction. But what does it have to do with the fantastical "he became a secret agent -- I shit you not" after that? Is this stream of consciousness?

And seriously, man, why do you referring to him as "Michel"? I'm a fan of Martin Luther, Thomas More*, Otto von Guericke, and Benjamin Franklin, but I don't refer to them as "Martin, Thomas, Otto, or Ben(jamin), either.

* Thomas Morus (lat.) = Thomas Mauer (german) - which is not why I'm a fan, though. ;)

[enobarbus]

The History promo I saw during Ice Road Truckers showed the words Satan, God, Religion, War.

Yeah....I dont know HOW I could take from that promo that the world is gonna devolve into a religious war :blah:

No, not you.

THEM.

I can see how they're selling this thing...

but that sorta contradicts the whole Trithemian Order of things.

But yeah, I do see how the promos are pasring this. Just don't know why...unless it makes for better ratings?

[Thomas Mauer]

Say what you will, but that channel's done more to document WWII than any high school teacher ever could. :lol:

Hell, they had to create a second channel just to hold all of their WWII shit (Military Channel).

:lol:

[lonesomefool]

No, not you.

THEM.

I can see how they're selling this thing...

but that sorta contradicts the whole Trithemian Order of things.

But yeah, I do see how the promos are pasring this. Just don't know why...unless it makes for better ratings?

Ratings. It's a whole hell of a lot easier to promote the end of the world than a show on some dude who predicted stuff. :)

[Thommy Melanson]

This thread needs a good fart joke.

[WillieLee]

Oh man, that would take some time. I've literally hundreds of pages of research to go though here and 1000s of poems, but it's still fun. In fact, I actually have SECRET shit I'm not supposed to discuss, but here I am spilling the beans anyway. Oh well.


Do you really believe you possess secret knowledge?

[Thommy Melanson]

Do you really believe you possess secret knowledge?

He's going to be killed by an albino monk tonight for sharing these long-kept secrets with the surface world.

[WillieLee]

He's going to be killed by an albino monk tonight for sharing these long-kept secrets with the surface world.

Killed by farts?

[Thommy Melanson]

Killed by farts?

Only if trapped in an elevator with Louie Anderson.

[enobarbus]

And seriously, man, why do you referring to him as "Michel"? I'm a fan of Martin Luther, Thomas More*, Otto von Guericke, and Benjamin Franklin, but I don't refer to them as "Martin, Thomas, Otto, or Ben(jamin), either.

* Thomas Morus (lat.) = Thomas Mauer (german) - which is not why I'm a fan, though. ;)

Yeah, this IS pretty much free association. And hey, like Bruce Willis, I was raised as a Lutheran, so I'm not a big Thomas More fan. After all, he did burn innocent men at the stake, so he really wasn't much of a humanist, now WAS he? You probably know quite a bit about all the martyrs of the Reformation, so there's a STILL a lot of bad blood out there, to be sure. The Huguenots were virtually wiped out by the Catholics in the c16.

There's really nothing radical about this idea of intel cadres operating in c16 Europe. The John Dee cell is well-documented.

But getting back to Nostradamus: I use "Michel" because... it's easier to type.

nostr letters to Lutherans (http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0034-4338(198624)39%3A4%3C743%3ALI%3E2.0.CO%3B2-H)

[WillieLee]

Only if trapped in an elevator with Louie Anderson.

Death with Louie?

[enobarbus]

Do you really believe you possess secret knowledge?

Define "secret knowledge."

Do you consider masonic rituals that use death oaths "secret knowledge"?

something along the lines of (?):

Master directs the candidate and his companions to be conducted to the southwest, and from thence to approach the altar by three times three steps, and there take the obligation in this degree. Master of Ceremonies instructs candidate, when the three approach the altar, and the following obligation is administered:

I, Willie Lee, do promise and vow in the most solemn manner, and in the presence of the most holy and puissant, and most terrible, just and merciful God, that I will double my assiduity, zeal and love for my fellow brethren who have taken this degree of K.A.

[TWO SECTIONS DELETED]

I further promise carefully to observe and pay due obedience to all the laws, rules and regulations, established by this [virtual] K.A. Chapter, as also to keep inviolable the secrets communicated in it.

I furthermore promise that I will not debauch any females related to a brother, knowing them to be such.

All this I promise under the penalties of my former obligations, and in case of failure, that my body may be exposed to the beasts of the forest as a prey; so God maintain me in my present obligation.

Thrice Potent Master instructs candidate in the sign, token and words of this degree, AS FOLLOWS:

SIGN - Kneel on the left knee, the right hand turned and placed on the back, the left hand raised above the head (palm upwards), the body leaning forward. It alludes to the penalty.

TOKEN - The brothers raise each other from the position given in the sign by interlacing the fingers of the left hand. The one raising says, Tob, Banai, Amalabec. The one being raised say Gibulum ishtov.

There are nine pass-words, one for each arch, viz:
Jov, Jeho, Juha, Havah, Elgibbor, Adonai, Joken, Eloah, Elzeboath.

GRAND WORD - Gibulum ishtov - signifying "Gibulum is a good man".

Candidate Willie Lee is now invested with the regalia of this degree, and is directed to salute the Senior Warden as a Knight of the Ninth Arch, which he does.

And now that you're in, there ain't no way OUT.

[Thomas Mauer]

Yeah, yeah, burning at the stake, Hugenot genocide, la-dee-da.

Were you aware that the Catholic church used to be the bigger proponent of advances in astronomy until the early 17th century? Until the politics of the Jesuit order changed (among others because Galilei dared talk theology - which he did because he was challenging the Church's infallibility in matters scientific), they were Galilei's biggest supporters and the biggest supporters of astronomy, including heliocentrism.

Luther was the one slamming Kepler and Lutherans were asking for the followers of Copernican science to be burned at the stake just as much as the Catholics and for a long time, they were the ones shouting the most for bloody murder.

Being a humanist didn't mean you couldn't burn people at the stake or persecute minorities in the name of religion.

As for the Hugenots, that was politics, and their persecution was a godsend for the German peoples because the technology transfer during the Hugenot exodus was immense.

And no one gives a shit anymore in this day and age, except maybe a few people who join secret societies to play Machiavellian Renaissance.

[enobarbus]

And no one gives a shit anymore in this day and age, except maybe a few people who join secret societies to play Machiavellian Renaissance.

nevertheless,

If it hadn't been for the Reformation
Vatican corruption would've continued unabated.

Anyway, since you know your German history...

"There were major advancements in cryptography during the Renaissance. In 1518, Abbot Trithemius, a German Benedictine monk, published in Latin the first book on the subject - the Polygraphia - which proved so popular that it was soon reprinted in French and German. The Abbot's system involved using a simple substitution cipher (like the Caesar cipher) and then transcribing each new letter into a word or phrase - so Trithemius's code was actually hidden in what appeared to be normal text. The concealing of a message in this physical way is called 'steganography' (secret inks and microdots are other examples). The principle behind the Abbot's system is still widely used today. However, at the time, his work was viewed by some as evidence of black magic and copies of his book were publicly burned, though thankfully Trithemius himself escaped the same fate.

"In 1556, another encryption system was invented by Girolamo Cardano. For his system, he used a specially prepared grid divided into 36 squares, which pivoted in the middle. Nine of the squares were punched out and numbered. Part of the secret message was then written through these squares, and through a system of turns, the grid gradually built up the secret message. For transmission, the message was rearranged in six-letter groups, and the recipient would reverse the process, using an identical punched-out grid. Cardano's system of 'transposition ciphers' was the basis of one of the most successful British naval ciphers of World War I."

http://www.txcc.net/~silentop/enc.txt

[Thomas Mauer]

Ooookay, that's the point where I back out of this thread since the copy/paste trivia isn't quite what I'd like to discuss here.

[Lanowar]

"Well, at least JASON remembers me."

http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/j/ap/fb170456-13e4-4e7e-8139-819bfca18a27.hmedium.jpg

Orbulus, look; It's Unicron!


Penn & Teller do you have anything to comment on Nostradamus? Oh you do well let's have a look see!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdG6DDQ8iCU

[t00lverine]

I predict there will be religious wars within the next five years.
Now that I've done that, it's time for a few beers.

[Brad N.]

Penn & Teller do you have anything to comment on Nostradamus? Oh you do well let's have a look see!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdG6DDQ8iCU

Fantastic and so wonderful. The Nostradamians are very similar to the JFK conspiracy theorists and 9/11 Truthers and it's nice to see them called on their bullshit.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

I believe in all of this, so I look forward to the presentation tonight.

[lonesomefool]

I believe in all of this, so I look forward to the presentation tonight.

How does it feel knowing the world will end in 2012? :)

[lonesomefool]

I predict there will be religious wars within the next five years.
Now that I've done that, it's time for a few beers.

Well, technically we have been in a religious War for awhile now. After all, Bin Laden declared a Jihad on America because we are a "Christian" country.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

How does it feel knowing the world will end in 2012? :)

It makes sense to me! Hillary in 2008!

[Brad N.]

I believe in all of this, so I look forward to the presentation tonight.

Seriously?

[WillieLee]

Seriously?

Well, he is a Mormon.:shifty:

[Brad N.]

Well, he is a Mormon.:shifty:

Yeah, but still given how much shit he gives truthers and JFK conspiracy believers I'm hoping my man Ethan's joking.

[WillieLee]

Yeah, but still given how much shit he gives truthers and JFK conspiracy believers I'm hoping my man Ethan's joking.

It's hard to tell with Ethan due to his former hippie status. Who knows what's lurking in that mind?

[lonesomefool]

Is anybody watch the show on History right now?

[mike black]

How does it feel knowing the world will end in 2012? :)

3797. According to Nostradamus. Though, in all the shows on him I've seen, I've never had anyone actually read his "chronologically last quatrain" read.

[mike black]

Is anybody watch the show on History right now?

Yes. In an hour and 13 minutes I have learned....


That Nostradamus was paranoid, and like watercolors.

Also, the white haired guy is bordering on fanaticism, and is a douche.

[lonesomefool]

3797. According to Nostradamus. Though, in all the shows on him I've seen, I've never had anyone actually read his "chronologically last quatrain" read.

Sweet....I wont be alive to see the end of the world. I dont plan on having any kids...so...so...screw you world. Have fun!! :twisted: :)

[mike black]

Sweet....I wont be alive to see the end of the world. I dont plan on having any kids...so...so...screw you world. Have fun!! :twisted: :)

It's funny too. The preceeding special on him even mentions this explicitly at the end. "His last prediction for Mankind is in 3797 (sic)."

Yet, in the show right after, they're attempting to say "HE STATES, IN HIS BOOK, THAT THE WORLD IS ENDING TOMORROW!!!"

[Brad N.]

Is anybody watch the show on History right now?

DVR. I don't buy into it, but all the talk at least had me interested enough to give it a look.

[Brad N.]

Yes. In an hour and 13 minutes I have learned....


That Nostradamus was paranoid, and like watercolors.

Also, the white haired guy is bordering on fanaticism, and is a douche.

Is it John Hogue again? That guy who dresses up to look like Nostradamus and I've seen in EVERY special about him ever? Cuz if so, yeah, he's an idiot.

[mike black]

Jay Weidner.

[Brad N.]

Jay Weidner.

I've heard him on Coast to Coast before. He's cuckoo too.

[mike black]

I've heard him on Coast to Coast before. He's cuckoo too.

I dunno.

They just tied Nostradamus to the Knights Templar.

Fuck Dan Brown. Fuck him in his ass.

[lonesomefool]

They are gonna reveal when the world is gonna end next....I cant wait!!! ;)

[lonesomefool]

Yep, 2012.....

[mike black]

:lol:

2012.

[lonesomefool]

:lol:

2012.

We are so fucked :)

[bradical]

We are so fucked :)

but think of the parties.

[mike black]

Things of note that take place in 2012:



January

* January 23 — Chinese New Year and scheduled new moon. This time of year is associated with the Water-Dragon in Chinese astrology.

February

* February 6 — If she is still on the throne, Elizabeth II will celebrate her Diamond Jubilee. A series of festivities across the United Kingdom and Commonwealth of Nations will likely run throughout the year.

April

* April 17 — The United States will cede control of the military of the Republic of Korea after 50 years of control.

July

* July 1 — The first possible government in Hong Kong elected by Universal suffrage take office.

October

* October 19 — at 1:36 UTC, the Earth will be home to 7 billion people, according to the US Census Bureau.[5][6]

December

* December 3 — Jupiter oppositions.
* December 21 — The Mesoamerican Long Count calendar, notably used by the Maya civilization among others of pre-Columbian Mesoamerica, completes its thirteenth b'ak'tun cycle since the calendar's mythical starting point (equivalent to 3114 BC August 11 in the proleptic Gregorian calendar, according to the "GMT-correlation" JDN= 584283). The Long Count b'ak'tun date of this starting point (13.0.0.0.0) is repeated, for the first time in a span of approximately 5,125 solar years. The significance of this period-ending to the pre-Columbian Maya themselves is unclear, and there is an incomplete inscription (Tortuguero Stela 6) that records this date. It is also to be found carved on the walls of the Temple of Inscriptions in Palenque, where it functions as a base date from which other dates are computed. However, it is conjectured that this may represent in the Maya belief system a transition from the current Creation world into the next. The December solstice for 2012 also occurs on this day.
* December 23 — The alternative date for the completion of the thirteenth b'ak'tun cycle in the Maya calendar, using a version of the GMT-correlation based on a JDN of 584285 (a.k.a. the "Lounsbury correlation"), which is supported by a smaller number of Mayanist researchers.
* December 31 — Expiration of the Kyoto Protocol.

Unknown dates

* Freedom Tower in New York City: Construction is scheduled to be finished by 2012 at the latest.
* NASA predicts that the Sun will also reverse its own magnetic poles during 2012 as result of reaching the end of the current 11-year sunspot cycle.
* In 2012, asteroid 99942 Apophis comes into view again to recalculate odds of impact.
* Charles Manson will be eligible for a parole hearing again.


Also, the following nations will have leadership elections:

Finland
France
Ireland
Mexico
United States

[mike black]

We are so fucked :)

Not according to Grant Morrison. We will become space faring demigods.

Metaphysical Events of Interest in 2012:


2012 is sometimes claimed to be a great year of spiritual transformation (or apocalypse). Many esoteric sources interpret the completion of the thirteenth B'ak'tun cycle in the Long Count of the Maya calendar (which occurs on December 21 by the most widely held correlation) to mean there will be a major change in world order.

Accordingly, several eclectic authors claim that a major, world-changing event will take place in 2012:

* The 1995 book The Mayan Prophecies linked the Maya calendar with long-period sunspot cycles.
* The book 2012: Mayan Year of Destiny claims the Maya may have been instructed in their wisdom by discarnate entities from Orion and the Pleiades. Contact was maintained through shamanic rituals conducted in accordance with the movements of planets and stars. However, some Mayan priests living and working in Guatemala assert that there is no legitimacy to this theory.
* The 1997 book The Bible Code claims that, according to certain algorithms of the Bible code, a meteor, asteroid or comet will collide with the Earth.
* The book The Nostradamus Code speaks of a series of natural disasters caused by a comet (possibly as above) that will allow the third Antichrist to disperse his troops around the globe under the guise of aid in preparation for a possible nuclear war, although in the strictest sense it is unspecific as to nuclear war or some other natural or man caused destruction.
* The book The Orion Prophecy claims that the Earth's magnetic field will reverse.
* The 2005 book Beyond 2012: Catastrophe or Ecstasy by Geoff Stray reviews several theories, prophecies and predictions concerning 2012 and finds where authors have used faulty information or have bent the truth to fit their theories.
* The 2006 book 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl by Daniel Pinchbeck discusses theories of a possible global awakening to psychic connection by the year 2012, creating a noosphere.
* The 2007 book Apocalypse 2012: A Scientific Investigation into Civilization's End by Lawrence Joseph does not make any specific new predictions, but it reviews a number of 2012 predictions made by various sources, and presents arguments for the possible existence of dangerous positive feedback loops involving solar storms, Earth's magnetic field, cosmic rays, hurricanes, global warming, earthquakes, and supervolcanoes that may be on the verge of erupting.

Other prophecies and apocalyptic writings and hypotheses for this year include:

* Terence McKenna's mathematical novelty theory suggests a point of singularity in which humankind will go through a great shift in consciousness.
* Some proponents of a peak oil catastrophe place major events in 2012. Richard C. Duncan's book The Peak of World Oil Production and the Road To The Olduvai Gorge claims that the Olduvai cliff will begin and permanent blackouts will occur worldwide. Several studies predict a peak in oil production in or around 2012. [13][14][15]
* Some alien-enthusiasts (e.g. Riley Martin), along with some new-agers, believe 2012 to correspond approximately with the return of alien "watchers" or "caretakers" who might have helped the first human civilizations with developing their technology and may have been waiting for us to reach a higher level of technological and/or social advancement. Beliefs range from the extra-terrestrials having benevolent purposes — such as to help human society evolve — to malevolent purposes — such as enslavement of mankind and/or manipulation.
* There is a Hindu following indicating the appearance of an Avatar (God in human form) with God-like powers who will herald a new age. A website to this effect appears at: End of the World 2012

Of Note:

The Earth's magnetic field reverses it's polarity on average once every 25,000 years (though sometimes differs in as much as millions, or as little as tens of thousands of years). The last time this happened was 780,000 years ago.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

Seriously?

Brad.....:mistrust:

[lonesomefool]

but think of the parties.

I think I am just gonna do as many drugs and fuck as many different chicks as I can until 2012. If we make it to 2013 I will settle down :)

[bradical]

I think I am just gonna do as many drugs and fuck as many different chicks as I can until 2012. If we make it to 2013 I will settle down :)

come 2013, i will stop being selfish. :)

[Ethan Van Sciver]

It'd be nice if the world would end in 2012. It's good to have deadlines like that. You get a lot done. I'd probably lose a few pounds, work out, get a nose job. To look good for Jesus, so he'd think I was more successful that I am.

[mike black]

It'd be nice if the world would end in 2012. It's good to have deadlines like that. You get a lot done. I'd probably lose a few pounds, work out, get a nose job. To look good for Jesus, so he'd think I was more successful that I am.

I suppose the weight is for the benefit of Jesus, right? Don't want the lord thinking you're a glutton, right?

As an aside:

You've popped up in more pictures of my friends in costume recently than I'm comfortable with. :lol:

http://a415.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/47/l_916fc39e446a60b5402bcbadb94dc416.jpg

[Ethan Van Sciver]

I suppose the weight is for the benefit of Jesus, right? Don't want the lord thinking you're a glutton, right?

As an aside:

You've popped up in more pictures of my friends in costume recently than I'm comfortable with. :lol:

http://a415.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/47/l_916fc39e446a60b5402bcbadb94dc416.jpg

I can't even recall what show that would have been. I'm wearing a well pressed button up shirt, so that means I didn't travel far.

Sorry, Jesus, but I'm fat! :eek:

[mike black]

I can't even recall what show that would have been. I'm wearing a well pressed button up shirt, so that means I didn't travel far.

Sorry, Jesus, but I'm fat! :eek:

I swear to god, I keep seeing costuming pics from random cons, and you're in them.

You should wear your RMC shirt more often. Despite that neither me or Savage work for them anymore - mainly because Colosseum sucks donkey dick.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

I swear to god, I keep seeing costuming pics from random cons, and you're in them.

You should wear your RMC shirt more often. Despite that neither me or Savage work for them anymore - mainly because Colosseum sucks donkey dick.

Oh, that's MegaCon! You can see it on the badge I'm wearing.

I don't think I have a Read More Comics shirt anymore. It was old so I tossed it. Why does Colosseum of Comics suck now?

[mike black]

Oh, that's MegaCon! You can see it on the badge I'm wearing.

I don't think I have a Read More Comics shirt anymore. It was old so I tossed it. Why does Colosseum of Comics suck now?

Eh, just rivalry from my days working at RMC. I worked for them from WWChi in '03 all the way thru until when Savage left.

I think I have 3 or four RMC shirts around, but they're all large and XL.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

Eh, just rivalry from my days working at RMC. I worked for them from WWChi in '03 all the way thru until when Savage left.

I think I have 3 or four RMC shirts around, but they're all large and XL.

Yeah, I'm an XXXXXXL now, so I just wear puptents. I always liked Colosseum the best because they had the best back issue selection and didn't bother me too much if I went in. They were alright.

So who is that Batman guy?

[mike black]

Yeah, I'm an XXXXXXL now, so I just wear puptents. I always liked Colosseum the best because they had the best back issue selection and didn't bother me too much if I went in. They were alright.

So who is that Batman guy?

You know, I cataloged all of RMC's back issues while I worked there, and I want to cry when I think about the fact that they had two full runs of Valiant's entire back catalog.

One of my best friends, 1LT Michael "Ned" Cox, FT Hood.

His wife costumes too (they're both in the Hero's Alliance):

http://a942.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/125/l_5eb9dd153d4583b823d9bbc1849e95f5.jpg

[Ethan Van Sciver]

You know, I cataloged all of RMC's back issues while I worked there, and I want to cry when I think about the fact that they had two full runs of Valiant's entire back catalog.

One of my best friends, 1LT Michael "Ned" Cox, FT Hood.

His wife costumes too (they're both in the Hero's Alliance):

http://a942.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/125/l_5eb9dd153d4583b823d9bbc1849e95f5.jpg

He's in the EXACT SAME POSE in both pictures!!! :eek:

I think I met your wife too. She looks familiar.

[mike black]

He's in the EXACT SAME POSE in both pictures!!! :eek:

I think I met your wife too. She looks familiar.

HIS WIFE. :lol:

Long story from their wedding.

If you care.

The wedding lady from their church was a real cunt, so we think she had this passive aggressive thing against him. So twice during the ceremony, while reading passages from the Bible referred to him by his best man's name, "David".

We're all cracking up in the pews, and he does this angry death-stare out into the church at the crowd. It was hilarious.

Anyway, he totally goes into the "Batman" persona when he costumes. Same when he's Superman, Captain Marvel, Hal Jordan, or whatever.

He forced me to be The Joker for four hours at Dragon Con last year.

http://b5.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/01164/53/92/1164822935_l.jpg

[Thomas Mauer]

* The book The Nostradamus Code speaks of a series of natural disasters caused by a comet (possibly as above) that will allow the third Antichrist to disperse his troops around the globe under the guise of aid in preparation for a possible nuclear war, although in the strictest sense it is unspecific as to nuclear war or some other natural or man caused destruction.The what now? Since when was there supposed to be more than one?

[AAlgar]

The what now? Since when was there supposed to be more than one?

According to The Man Who Saw Tomorrow (that Orson Welles-narrated movie I mentioned before), Nostradamus predicted three: Napoleon, Hitler and... to be determined.

[Thomas Mauer]

According to The Man Who Saw Tomorrow (that Orson Welles-narrated movie I mentioned before), Nostradamus predicted three: Napoleon, Hitler and... to be determined.

:rofl:

[AAlgar]

:rofl:

I was bummed that this movie is not on DVD, but somebody had the good sense to put it on YouTube.

It's in pieces, but here's the first one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqD_wcH1lHs

Highlights: Welles narrating with a cigar in his mouth. Or the "antichrist" being this weird space sultan. Or the reenactment of drunk guys drinking out of Nostradamus' skull. Or when they asked an "expert" if seeing into the future is possible... and the ASTRONAUT that they got says yes.

And that's only the first 10 minutes.

[Thomas Mauer]

Dude, sounds like a riot. I'll check it out.

[Jef UK]

It's at once hilarious and sad that people believe in this shit.

It's terrible that airing this tripe on the "History Channel," lends the shit some amount of credibility to those people.

[Ben]

Why was this on the History Channel if it's about the FUTURE?

[AAlgar]

Why was this on the History Channel if it's about the FUTURE?

Tahm masheen!

[Ben]

It's at once hilarious and sad that people believe in this shit.

It's terrible that airing this tripe on the "History Channel," lends the shit some amount of credibility to those people.They have a series called Mega-Disasters that seems to exist just to scare the crap out of people.

One episode: What if every volcano on Earth erupted at the same time?
Another episode: What if the worst earthquake of all time happened in NYC?
etc.

[Brad N.]

Brad.....:mistrust:

See, I think I know you better than that but once in a while you throw even me a curveball. :)

[Ethan Van Sciver]

Why was this on the History Channel if it's about the FUTURE?

They should do a documentary about the History of our Future! Like what people of different eras thought the future would look like.

I expect to see some flying cars.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

See, I think I know you better than that but once in a while you throw even me a curveball. :)

I believe in nossingk except the Party.

[XXXenophile]

According to The Man Who Saw Tomorrow (that Orson Welles-narrated movie I mentioned before), Nostradamus predicted three: Napoleon, Hitler and... to be determined.

And every new Nostradamus documentary makes it look like the 3rd one is someone we're already dealing with.

Orson's documentary gave the idea of the Ayatollah.

The 90's documentary NBC did with Charlton Heston hosting was claiming Hussein.

And I'm sure this new one will give the idea of Iran's president as the 3rd choice.

They change the person every documentary to suit the new guy who scares well.

[Ben]

I thought the Antichrist was supposed to be someone everyone thought was cool. He's all charming and likable and then he turns out to be some asshole that destroys the world. That doesn't sound like Hitler or Hussein.

[XXXenophile]

I thought the Antichrist was supposed to be someone everyone thought was cool. He's all charming and likable and then he turns out to be some asshole that destroys the world. That doesn't sound like Hitler or Hussein.

LOL now just because that's Mark Millar's personal description of the guy........

[enobarbus]

Why was this on the History Channel if it's about the FUTURE?

I might ATTEMPT to answer that question.

But first, I'm just curious to know what YOU know about Freemasonry.

Do you know much about it?

[Brad N.]

They should do a documentary about the History of our Future! Like what people of different eras thought the future would look like.

I expect to see some flying cars.

Heh, like those old black and white reels from the fifties or the old World's Fair stuff. I even recall watching some old ass educational film in grade school that had future stuff in it like that. I think it was around the same time they made us watch Mulligan Stew. Blech.

[Patton]

Wait...did this documentary actually say Nostradamus predicted 2012 as the end of the world?

[Brad N.]

I might ATTEMPT to answer that question.

But first, I'm just curious to know what YOU know about Freemasonry.

Do you know much about it?

Did the Masons conspire with the Jews to air this? :eek:

Without snark I know a few Masons and know a bit ABOUT them. I was also going to join myself a few years ago but didn't care enough really to go through with it. I do know they get more credit than they deserve however and are something of a scapegoat for conspiracy nuts, like Jews or Templars, or whatever. I prefer the Water Buffalos to be honest.

[Thommy Melanson]

Wait...did this documentary actually say Nostradamus predicted 2012 as the end of the world?

Didn't watch so I don't know, but both the Mayan calendar and the I-Ching timeline graph end on the same point, 2012.

Apparently there was also an actual guy named Merlin back in the Middle Ages, and while not a "wizard" like his legend claims, he too was fond of predictions and his ended on 2012 as well.

That's 3 separate prophecies from 3 different cultures from 3 different time periods that all came to the same conclusion.

[Patton]

Didn't watch so I don't know, but both the Mayan calendar and the I-Ching timeline graph end on the same point, 2012.

Apparently there was also an actual guy named Merlin back in the Middle Ages, and while not a "wizard" like his legend claims, he too was fond of predictions and his ended on 2012 as well.

That's 3 separate prophecies from 3 different cultures from 3 different time periods that all came to the same conclusion.

Yeah I know about those which is why I was curious this documentary claims he also predicted this.

[Brad N.]

Didn't watch so I don't know, but both the Mayan calendar and the I-Ching timeline graph end on the same point, 2012.

Apparently there was also an actual guy named Merlin back in the Middle Ages, and while not a "wizard" like his legend claims, he too was fond of predictions and his ended on 2012 as well.

That's 3 separate prophecies from 3 different cultures from 3 different time periods that all came to the same conclusion.

Just to speak on the Maya thing, it's not what many people think...

From a USA Today Science article (although I have also read many others by experts on Mayan culture debunking the doomasday 2012 crap):




"The convergence I see here is the apocalyptic expectations, if you will, along with the fact that the environment is in the front of many people's minds these days," Garrett says. "Part of the appeal of these earth religions is that notion that we need to reconnect with the Earth in order to save ourselves."

But scholars are bristling at attempts to link the ancient Maya with trends in contemporary spirituality. Maya civilization, known for advanced writing, mathematics and astronomy, flourished for centuries in Mesoamerica, especially between A.D. 300 and 900. Its Long Count calendar, which was discontinued under Spanish colonization, tracks more than 5,000 years, then resets at year zero.

"For the ancient Maya, it was a huge celebration to make it to the end of a whole cycle," says Sandra Noble, executive director of the Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies in Crystal River, Fla. To render Dec. 21, 2012, as a doomsday or moment of cosmic shifting, she says, is "a complete fabrication and a chance for a lot of people to cash in."

Part of the 2012 mystique stems from the stars. On the winter solstice in 2012, the sun will be aligned with the center of the Milky Way for the first time in about 26,000 years. This means that "whatever energy typically streams to Earth from the center of the Milky Way will indeed be disrupted on 12/21/12 at 11:11 p.m. Universal Time," Joseph writes.

But scholars doubt the ancient Maya extrapolated great meaning from anticipating the alignment — if they were even aware of what the configuration would be.

Astronomers generally agree that "it would be impossible the Maya themselves would have known that," says Susan Milbrath, a Maya archaeoastronomer and a curator at the Florida Museum of Natural History. What's more, she says, "we have no record or knowledge that they would think the world would come to an end at that point."

University of Florida anthropologist Susan Gillespie says the 2012 phenomenon comes "from media and from other people making use of the Maya past to fulfill agendas that are really their own."

Dunno enough about I-ching or any "real" Merlin, but 2012 is only the latest doomsday obsessed year after 2000 came and went without doom and gloom.

[Thomas Mauer]

Just to speak on the Maya thing, it's not what many people think...

From a USA Today Science article (although I have also read many others by experts on Mayan culture debunking the doomasday 2012 crap):



Dunno enough about I-ching or any "real" Merlin, but 2012 is only the latest doomsday obsessed year after 2000 came and went without doom and gloom.

Yeah, the doomsayers always forget to mention that the Maya saw their calendar as a big cycle. So after the 13th age ends in 2012, we'll just start the 14th.

[allanpat]

i prefer my predictions from Negrodamus

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/4/45/Negrodamus.jpg

[allanpat]

Yeah, the doomsayers always forget to mention that the Maya saw their calendar as a big cycle. So after the 13th age ends in 2012, we'll just start the 14th.

Yup - the Promethea version of the apocalypse is this but better

[Thomas Mauer]

What's Negrodamus from? That made me laugh.

[enobarbus]

Did the Masons conspire with the Jews to air this? :eek:

Without snark I know a few Masons and know a bit ABOUT them. I was also going to join myself a few years ago but didn't care enough really to go through with it. I do know they get more credit than they deserve however and are something of a scapegoat for conspiracy nuts, like Jews or Templars, or whatever. I prefer the Water Buffalos to be honest.

The guy we should be discussing this with is Brad Meltzer.

Forget about all that wacko stuff and try to put yourself in the shoes of a 17th century humanist, toiling away in quiet obscurity within the confines of some academic tomb. Imagine you've studied and experimented for years, like Isaac Newton or Robert Boyle, but you have to tread carefully - for fear of offending the religious authorities. What is your best defense against the forces of intolerance who would suppress your freedom?

You band together with fellow travelers, of course.

Why was this program about Nostradamus on the History Channel? Because it's ABOUT history. You can observe it, record it or make it.

Or even manipulate it.

So the most interesting question here has already been asked in this thread:

WHY did so many "rational" people put so much effort into elevating THIS man's "prophecies" above all others (ostensibly)? That he was connected to Templar tradition is beyond dispute. But take a look a the poems again - without all the modern interpolation - and you'll discover that many of these are actually about THE PAST.

Because he's drawing attention to certain key events, of course.

[enobarbus]

Just to speak on the Maya thing, it's not what many people think...

From a USA Today Science article (although I have also read many others by experts on Mayan culture debunking the doomasday 2012 crap):



Dunno enough about I-ching or any "real" Merlin, but 2012 is only the latest doomsday obsessed year after 2000 came and went without doom and gloom.

The thing about the Year 2000 craziness is the fact that it's based on a reltively "new" calendar, but the Mayan one isn't. According to people who are eager for such novelties, this solar flare has happened before, and people obviously survived it and left some account of the disaster for posterity.

They supposedly found refuge in a cave in South America. Today, that cave has been sealed off and is constantly guarded.

Just google HENDAYE and you can read all bout this - as this is supposedly secret knowledge that was protected by secret societies across the centuries.

Supposedly...

1) There is an elemental pattern, life/death/resurrection, which is related to the precessional cycle and the renewal of the world by fire.

2) The Last Judgment is the moment when the Xs, the equinoxes, align properly.

3) The Hendaye monument is designed to measure when the snakes and the crosses coincide, the measure of the 12th part, or the end of a thirteen thousand year cycle.

[Glixy]

The thing about the Year 2000 craziness is the fact that it's based on a reltively "new" calendar, but the Mayan one isn't. According to people who are eager for such novelties, this solar flare has happened before, and people obviously survived it and left some account of the disaster for posterity.

They supposedly found refuge in a cave in South America. Today, that cave has been sealed off and is constantly guarded.

Do you have a link for this or anything, that sounds facinating, and I've never heard about it before.

[enobarbus]

Do you have a link for this or anything, that sounds facinating, and I've never heard about it before.

I was under the impression that something like that was "bad forum" on this forum...

but actually there's a pretty good documentary about it that you might find on youtube... only because a growing number of people are discussing it.

http://www.sangraal.com/AMET/hendaye.html

In essence, what really happened to the Templars was...

But wait. You DO believe that the Templars actually existed, don't you?

[WillieLee]

What's Negrodamus from? That made me laugh.

Chappelle Show. That's Paul Mooney playing the part and he's much more accurate than Nostradamus ever was.

[WillieLee]

Did the Masons conspire with the Jews to air this? :eek:

Without snark I know a few Masons and know a bit ABOUT them. I was also going to join myself a few years ago but didn't care enough really to go through with it. I do know they get more credit than they deserve however and are something of a scapegoat for conspiracy nuts, like Jews or Templars, or whatever. I prefer the Water Buffalos to be honest.

They're just the typical scapegoat. Everyone knows that the Elks club members are the real puppetmasters.

[Brad N.]

The thing about the Year 2000 craziness is the fact that it's based on a reltively "new" calendar, but the Mayan one isn't. According to people who are eager for such novelties, this solar flare has happened before, and people obviously survived it and left some account of the disaster for posterity.

They supposedly found refuge in a cave in South America. Today, that cave has been sealed off and is constantly guarded.

Just google HENDAYE and you can read all bout this - as this is supposedly secret knowledge that was protected by secret societies across the centuries.

Supposedly...

1) There is an elemental pattern, life/death/resurrection, which is related to the precessional cycle and the renewal of the world by fire.

2) The Last Judgment is the moment when the Xs, the equinoxes, align properly.

3) The Hendaye monument is designed to measure when the snakes and the crosses coincide, the measure of the 12th part, or the end of a thirteen thousand year cycle.

:mistrust:

Oooookaaay.

[Thomas Mauer]

The thing about the Year 2000 craziness is the fact that it's based on a reltively "new" calendar, but the Mayan one isn't. According to people who are eager for such novelties, this solar flare has happened before, and people obviously survived it and left some account of the disaster for posterity.


It happened in 1857 according to a History Channel program!

[enobarbus]

It happened in 1857 according to a History Channel program!

Not Carrington's Flare (http://www-spof.gsfc.nasa.gov/Education/whcarr.html)?

BTW: Would you not agree that...

the Knights Templar were a significant factor in European history (12th-13th centuries)

there is a relationship between the Templars and the Freemasons

?

[Thomas Mauer]

Not Carrington's Flare (http://www-spof.gsfc.nasa.gov/Education/whcarr.html)?I don't know. Just watch the first episode of The History Channel's terrible series "The Universe" which is about the sun. They mentioned it in there.

The History Channel makes ratings with apocalyptic bullshit. Throughout that episode, they were saying, "oooh, if the earth is hit by an immense solar flare, it could wipe out all life on earth! Tune in as we tell you more about our impending doom!"

Then in something of an aside in the last 15 or so minutes, they spilled the beans that exactly this phenomenon had happened in 1857 (could have been 1859, I don't quite remember). Earth's still there. Civilization was not wiped out. In fact, if it was 1857, it must not have had MUCH of an effect because that year, the grain harvest was one of the best for decades worldwide!


BTW: Would you not agree that...
They should have told you in rhetoric school that starting sentences like that makes you look silly.

the Knights Templar were a significant factor in European history (12th-13th centuries)
I'll tell you how much of a significant factor the Knights Templar were in High Medieval history:

They did much to help create the modern banking system.

They were the first to organize a pan-European military structure during the Second Crusade that patterned itself after the Roman military and did away with the Feudal system liege following, because they were in charge of getting the crusaders to the Holy Land that time. Unforunately, it didn't stick in Medieval Europe in general. Took another couple hundred years till soldiers replaced warriors in the armies.

Bernard de Clairvaux wrote the first European propaganda treatise with the "Book of Praise of the New Chivalry" in which he successfully made the case that it was not only right, but a sworn duty for Christian knights to kill in the name of Jesus.

And that's pretty much it.


there is a relationship between the Templars and the Freemasons

?
Blah blah, the Templars were dissolved in 1312, long before the first recognized Free Mason text is dated (the Regius Manuscript, 1390), blah, it's quite possible that former Templars or their descendants became members of early or pre-Masonic cells, blah blah, the Free Masons no doubt made Templar chivalry and their advanced architectural and philosophic ideas their own.

It's ALWAYS easy for groups and societies to make connections to extinct groups and societies. Fuck, local legend has it that Magdeburg was founded by some exiles of the destroyed city of Troy!

[D-Money]

We will all see in 5 years.

[enobarbus]

it's quite possible that former Templars or their descendants became members of early or pre-Masonic cells

And this is precisely my point.

As you say, the Templars accumulated enormous wealth...

and made a lot of enemies in the process.

If you're dabbling in "high finance" all over the civilized world, I'd say that pretty much makes you a multinational corporation. Did these Templars really defer to anyone? I seriously doubt it. They obviously didn't FEAR anyone, because they were insanely over-confident and were taken totally by surprise on Friday, October 13th of 1307.

But let's not forget that in 1313 (?) - as de Molay (which is the name of the Masonic Youth Group, as you probably know) was being slowly roasted over white coals by the Vatican's torturers, he somehow managed to utter a vow of vengeance against king and pope - and both men died before the year was over. Coincidence? You tell me.

And let's not forget that not ALL the Templars were captured in 1307. For example, there is ample evidence that Templars fought on behalf of the Scots at Bannockburn. Is it not well within the realm of possibility that the survival cells simply merged with practical mason guilds to become something new, better organized and infinitely more powerful?

[enobarbus]

We will all see in 5 years.

Well, that's another thing

because no one really knows for sure what it is we're actually supposed to see.

All you really have is one man's interpretation.

How does any man interpret the imagery contained within the "prophecies" of Daniel, for example. You don't - unless you happen to know his code. This is why it's so crucial to read the material that INFORMS the Daniel authors.

But let's get real for just one moment. No man can actually know the future, unless you're really talking about the discipline of trying to perceive historical patterns, which is a legitimate science.

BTW: While it's true that most solar flares don't do out planet any real damage, it cannot be denied that - should the flare be large enough (and this is rare, of course) - the potential exists for something that may look a lot like an apocalyptic event. The gamma rays alone would probably spawn a race of supermen... :mistrust:

[Thomas Mauer]

And this is precisely my point.

As you say, the Templars accumulated enormous wealth...

and made a lot of enemies in the process.

If you're dabbling in "high finance" all over the civilized world, I'd say that pretty much makes you a multinational corporation. Did these Templars really defer to anyone? I seriously doubt it. They obviously didn't FEAR anyone, because they were insanely over-confident and were taken totally by surprise on Friday, October 13th of 1307.

But let's not forget that in 1313 (?) - as de Molay (which is the name of the Masonic Youth Group, as you probably know) was being slowly roasted over white coals by the Vatican's torturers, he somehow managed to utter a vow of vengeance against king and pope - and both men died before the year was over. Coincidence? You tell me.

And let's not forget that not ALL the Templars were captured in 1307. For example, there is ample evidence that Templars fought on behalf of the Scots at Bannockburn. Is it not well within the realm of possibility that the survival cells simply merged with practical mason guilds to become something new, better organized and infinitely more powerful?

Oh boy, you give me so much material for a new book. Tentative title:

"The Misadventures of the Tin Foil Hat Brigade"

Thanks! :)

[Thomas Mauer]

BTW: While it's true that most solar flares don't do out planet any real damage, it cannot be denied that - should the flare be large enough (and this is rare, of course) - the potential exists for something that may look a lot like an apocalyptic event. The gamma rays alone would probably spawn a race of supermen... :mistrust:

No, that was covered in that episode of "The Universe." The one scientific bit about that particular subject. The flare in 1857 WAS one of the super large ones and it had no adverse effect because the Earth's magnetic field channels and deflects the gamma rays.

Or something.

[Criden]

Wow, supremely entertaining thread.

[edwardmblake]

Wow, supremely entertaining thread.

I agree. I like the Larry King-esque posts by the guy who hasn't seen the light.

[enobarbus]

Oh boy, you give me so much material for a new book. Tentative title:

"The Misadventures of the Tin Foil Hat Brigade"

Thanks! :)

At precisely what point did you get out your tin hat?

Was it the part about the Templars serving as international bankers?

The De Molay Society? (You've never heard of it? It's for real. Lots of famous men were inducted, including Bill Clinton.)

As for the list of famous (and "powerful") American Freemasons, you'd need a lot of paper.

Both Philip the Fair and Pope Clement did die shortly after de Molay (http://www.jacquesdemolay.org/) was tortured to death.

Or was it the part about Bannockburn?

After the Templars were "outlawed," Robert Bruce carried out a half-hearted campaign against the Templars. There is little evidence of any activity that could even be called persecution:

"only two interrogatories of Templars have been found, in neither of which is any crime admitted" (Martin, Trial 60).

While forty-one outside witnesses were heard, none provided significant evidence against the Order.

Many other nations in Western Europe, of course, treated Templars less harshly than France. Those countries, however, still complied with the pontiff’s wishes.

In Lorraine, for example, the Order blended into the general public and in Portugal the Order remained intact, renaming themselves the Knights of Christ.

In Scotland, Clement’s orders were all but ignored. It's not too far-fetched to speculate that fugitives from the continent would have gone north, where they were relatively safe from the pope and the Inquisition. In fact, Robert the Bruce may have encouraged it as part of a recruitment drive. (Would YOU turn away the Templars if you were thinking about fighting the English?)

The decisive Scotch victory of 1314 ended Edward’s hopes of bringing Scotland under English authority. John Barbour, Robert Bruce’s first biographer, describes the tactic that earned the Scots their victory in the second day of battle:

"They then took sheets both broad and tall, /
And fastened them with pole and spear /
That they like banners might appear"
(Barbour 305).

The English, seeing the banners, scattered, and Robert’s forces had little trouble dominating Edward’s splintered troops. The decisive moment,

the "intervention of what the English regarded as a fresh force, which suddenly erupted with banners flying from the Scottish rear"

is surprising. How could a force as great as Edward’s suddenly lose its nerve with so little motivation?

[enobarbus]

The big idea here is that the Jesuits actually hijacked Freemasonry in the 18th century, in a desperate attempt to circumvent its influence. In fact, it might be said with veracity that: Since its inception, the Order of Jesus has orchestrated many conspiracies...


All the ancient priesthoods had their esoteric doctrines and secret ceremonies.

From the Essenic brotherhood, an evolution of the Hindu Gymnosophists, doubtless proceeded the Solidarities of Greece and Rome as described by so-called 'Pagan' writers.

Founded on these and copying them in the matter of ritual, signs, grips, passwords, etc., were developed the mediaeval guilds. Like the present livery companies of London, the relics of the English trade-guilds, the operative Masons were but a guild of workmen with higher pretensions. From the French name 'Macon,' derived from 'Mas,' an old Norman noun meaning 'a house,' comes our English 'Mason,' a house builder. As the London companies alluded to present now and again the Freedom of the 'Liveries' to outsiders, so we find the trade-guilds of Masons doing the same.

Thus the founder of the Ashmolean Museum was made free of the Masons at Warrington, in Lancashire, England, on the 16th October, 1646. The entrance of such men as Elias Ashmole into the Operative Fraternity paved the way for the great 'Masonic Revolution of 1717,' when SPECULATIVE Masonry came into existence.

The Constitutions of 1723 and 1738, by the Masonic impostor Anderson, were written up for the newly-fledged and first Grand Lodge of 'Free and Accepted Masons' of England, from which body all others over the world hail to-day.

"These bogus constitutions, written by Anderson, were compiled about then, and in order to palm off his miserable rubbish yclept history, on the Craft, he had the audacity to state that nearly all the documents relating to Masonry in England had been destroyed by the 1717 reformers.

Happily, in the British Museum, Bodleian Library, and other public institutions, Rebold, Hughan and others have discovered sufficient evidence in the shape of old Operative Masonic charges to disprove this statement.

"The same writers, I think, have conclusively upset the tenability of two other documents palmed upon Masonry, namely, the spurious charter of Cologne of 1535, and the forged questions, supposed to have been written by Leylande, the antiquary, from a MS. of King Henry VI. of England.

In the last named, Pythagoras is referred to as having -- 'formed a great lodge, at Crotona, and made many Masons, some of whom travelled into France, and there made many, from whence, in process of time, the art passed into England.'

Sir Christopher Wren, architect of St. Paul's Cathedral, London, often called the 'Grand Master of Freemasons,' was simply the Master or President of the London Operative Masons Company. If such a tissue of fable could interweave itself into the history of the Grand Lodges which now have charge of the first three symbolical degrees, it is hardly astonishing that the same fate should befall nearly all of the High Masonic Degrees which have been aptly termed 'an incoherent medley of opposite principles.'
..."

[(akaRyanHoffman)]

Ok...so I haven't read a single post in this thead, but do any of you really take anything Nostradamus wrote seriously? And if you do: WHY?

[enobarbus]

Ok...so I haven't read a single post in this thead, but do any of you really take anything Nostradamus wrote seriously? And if you do: WHY?

Have you read Holy Blood/Holy Grail? If not, you should... because it's vastly more entertaining as a work of speculative fiction than DVC.

I think even the judge who ruled in favour of Dan Brown agreed with this opinion.

That said, I will answer your Q directly with as much factual evidence as I can summon from memory:

1) Nostr father invested in the publication of a book in the 1520s (when Michel was but a teen) that was very similar to the one(s) written by his son. This is highly significant, if you think about the WHY of it. How long do you think they'd been printing books at that point? Not even... 50 years?

2) Okay. So Young Nostr attempts to complete his doctorate at Montpellier in 1530. One of his classmates is none other than Francois Rabelais - destined to become one of the most famous writer of all time - and a humanist spy at the Vatican in his later years. And one of FR's first published works is a satirical ALMANAC. ("I predict that this March, it will be damp and muddy," etc.)

3) After Nostr is expelled, he goes to work for Scaliger - the man destined to change the way we mark the passage of time (although his son will get the credit for it, hence the JULIAN calendar). Scaliger resides at Agen, near the king's sister, who provides sanctuary at her home for humanists on the run.

The plot thickens.

4) After Nostr's family is killed by the plague, he leaves Agen and heads north. (In the movie, this is when he meets Rutger Hauer, the mad monk (or whatever the hell he's supposed to be) who reveals secret stuff, etc. What more than likely happened is: He made contact with his sponsors, who gave him his marching orders. So he goes to Italy in the 1530s and 40s, then goes back to Salon, where he settles down with his second wife (who has money) and starts writing alamanacs, which contain predictions, obviously. Probably about as accurate as the one you buy your Uncle Eb for Xmas every year.

5) Nostr really sticks his neck out when he published The Centuries c.1555, then an expanded version in 1557 (and an even longer version AFTER his death, which should be noted). Now what do you make of these poems? What does he focus on? About 80% of them pertain to France and Italy, and many of these are RETRO prophecies (eg. A horse will arrive at the gates of Troy, etc). Those can't miss, because they've already happened. Then there are safe bets like "The king of France will die in combat." That's quite likely to happen - and did, within a few years of publication. So his rep shoots right up and the very widow of the man whose death he predicted actually pays him a visit - along with the royal family. Does he sound like a charlatan to you?

Perhaps.

So many of his prophecies are fulfilled simply because these events are inevitable. He sided with the forces of Henri Navarre, which was a total longshot - but he got that one right. How?

HYPOTHESIS: The book written by Nostr and publ in 1555 was actually a blueprint for intel cells all over Europe. (It was publ at LYON, which was a Huguenot and humanist stronghold, which speaks volumes.) So in other words, what you read as "The village idiot will become leader of his country" actually means something else entirely to a operative in, say - Rome or Paris or London. What they see is a timetable or a schedule. In other words: "On the first of April in 1560, you will go to Florence and assassinate the Duke of Parma," etc.

And in fact, many of the "coded" material isn't all that hard to decode if you know the people and places of that time. Nostr especially focuses on popes in general and the Vatican in particular, as THEY are the main target. The objective is to infiltrate the Vatican and take out the Jesuits, who serve as its shocktroops.

As it all turned out, the only obstacle standing in Navarre's way in the 1590s WAS the god-damn pope, who refused to recognize him. And so that pope got whacked, and a new (more amenable) asshole was elected. Then Henri became king of France and ruled wisely, providing a chicken for every pot... until the Jesuits finally took him out in 1608 (or thereabouts). Turnabout's a bitch, eh?

But the best way to PROVE that Nostradamus a codemaster is by studying the work of Trithemius. who provides us with a well-documented paper-trail of code that stretches all the way back to Ibrahim bin Ezra in the, um... 12th century?

[Thomas Mauer]

Ok...so I haven't read a single post in this thead, but do any of you really take anything Nostradamus wrote seriously? And if you do: WHY?

The enobarbus does. :lol:

[enobarbus]

De Septem Secundeis id est, intelligentiis, sive Spiritibus Orbes post Deum moventibus.

(Seven Secondary Causes of the heavenly INTELLIGENCIES, governing the Orbes under GOD.)

Dedication, to the Emperor Maximilian

Renowned Caesar,

it is the opinion of very many of the Auncients, that this inferious World by ordination of the first Intellect (which is God) is directed and ordered by Secundarian Intelligences, to which opinion Conciliator Medicorum assents, saying, that from the Originall or first beginning of heaven and earth, there were 7. Spirits appointed as Presidents to the 7. Planets.

Of which number every one of those ruleth the world 354. years, and four months in order.

To this Position, many, and they most learned men, have afforded their consent; which opinion of theirs my self not affirming, but delivering, do make manifest to your most sacred Majesty.

- IOHN TRITEMIVS,
Abbot of Spanheim
1508

[WillieLee]

Ok...so I haven't read a single post in this thead, but do any of you really take anything Nostradamus wrote seriously? And if you do: WHY?

One! One of us does, ah ah ah.

[enobarbus]

One! One of us does, ah ah ah.

Only one?

Then why have his books been CONTINUOUSLY in print since 1555? How is this even possible?


The uncertainties of wartime almost certainly account for the unanticipated success of The Oracles of Nostradamus, which was published in the Modern Library in February 1942, two months after the attack on Pearl Harbor. The decision to include Nostradamus in the series had been made before the United States entered the war. Cerf commented, "We put that title in possibly with our tongues in our cheeks, because people seem to be interested in predictions of a strange character" ("Of Men and Books," 1943). Paul Galdone, who designed the jacket in November 1941, did not foresee the Japanese attack. The jacket merely refers to "fateful happenings predicted tomorrow for Europe and America by the sixteenth-century soothsayer whom Hitler relies upon today" (Ward, 1942, book jacket front panel).

When the United States declared war on Japan on December 8 and recognized a state of war with Germany and Italy three days later, the future looked dark and the outcome of the war was uncertain. The Oracles of Nostradamus immediately became one of the Modern Library's best-selling titles. It sold 16,043 copies between May 1, 1942 and November 1, 1943.

Only five Modern Library titles -- W. Somerset Maugham's Of Human Bondage and Fyodor Dostoyevsky's Crime and Punishment in the regular series, and The Basic Writings of Sigmund Freud, James T. Farrell's Studs Lonigan, and The Short Stories of Ernest Hemingway in the Giants -- sold more copies during this period.

[WillieLee]

Only one?

Then why have his books been CONTINUOUSLY in print since 1555? How is this even possible?

Given your belief in Nostradamus I am not surprised that you missed the part of his statement that said, "in this thread".

[enobarbus]

Nostradamus used the "Trithemian" System. (http://www.esotericarchives.com/tritheim/tritem.htm)

Early in the 16th century, Trithemius wrote:

The first Angell or Spirit of Saturn is called Orifiel

The second Governour of the World is Anael the Spirit of Venus.

Zachariel the Angell of Jupiter, began to govern the world in the year of the Creation of Heaven and Earth 708.

The fourth Rector of the World was Raphael, the Spirit of Mercury which began in the year of the Creation of Heaven and Earth 1063

The fifth Gubernator of the World was Samuel the Angell of Mars

The sixth Governour of the World is Gabriel the Angell of the Moon

Michael the Angel of the Sun was the 7. Ruler of the World.

Under the Dominion of the Angel of the Sun even as Histories consent with truth, Kings began first to be amongst Mortall men, of whom Nimrod was the first, that with an ambitious desire of Soveraignty, did Tyrannize over his Companions.

[Thomas Mauer]

Dude, let it rest. No one's interested in reading your copy/paste info. It just makes you look like a troll and could lead to an Illuminati-like banning eventually.

[enobarbus]

Dude, let it rest. No one's interested in reading your copy/paste info. It just makes you look like a troll and could lead to an Illuminati-like banning eventually.

What is it with you and cut and paste? Okay, we GET you're not interested in this subject, so just move on, nothing to see here.

The fact that you (perhaps jokingly) referred to Thomas More in positive terms makes me somewhat suspicious of your motives. Are you perhaps a Jesuit?

Anyway, other people have asked to see evidence, and I'm providing it.

[Thomas Mauer]

Thing is, you're not providing any evidence in the context people are asking for. You're just dumping raw data. If you were actually discussing any of this, it could be quite interesting. But as soon as anyone asks you for an explanation or challenges anything, you just hop onto the next little marginally relevant topic without really answering the other person.

I didn't joke about being a fan of Thomas More's. He was steadfast in his convictions and stood up for his beliefs, which is why he ultimately was executed himself. Does it suck that he personally burned 6 Protestants at the stake and was responsible for the torture of 40 others? Sure. But it was also understandable because he was trying to preserve the unity of the church.

Ironically, this is what got him killed when he continued to hold on to his belief that Henry VIII did not stand above the Pope, even though he did concede that he was the head of the Church of England.

More and Luther weren't really that different. Both wanted a reformation of the church to preserve its unity. But while Luther made the step to break with his superiors and thus for the first time create a reformation in the modern sense, More was of the mind that the reformation had to come from within the system. Read Utopia and you'll see what his political ideas were that can also be applied to his beliefs in ecclesiastical matters - which included religious tolerance, btw, but under the condition that authority wasn't challenged by religous affiliation.

As far as my "motives" are concerned, I'm not interested in waging a religious war with you that was already won 350 years ago by my Protestant ancestors in the stalemate of the bloody 30 Years War. So don't try to bait me with Catholics vs. Protestants silliness.

Now if you want to further discuss this, I'm more than happy to oblige. But please, for the love of whatever deity you believe in, don't just wander off on a tangent posting random data as "evidence." Back it up, man. Discuss. Pros and cons. Feedback, challenges, concessions. You know? The things that are usually done in a discussion.

[enobarbus]

More and Luther weren't really that different.

Except that More wanted Luther prosecuted as a heretic and executed.

As did all Catholics.

The trouble began in 1517, when Albert of Brandenburg, the archbishop of Mainz, sponsored a sale of indulgences to pay for construction of Saint Peter's in Rome. In response, an Augustinian monk posted 95 theses on the door of the castle chapel in Wittenburg, Germany. The theses invited debate over the legitimacy of the sale of indulgences. Copies of the theses spread rapidly over Europe. The papacy took steps against this heretic; but the Wittenburg faculty supported him, because he was right. The aftermath was rather... predictable.

And it got even worse when the Jesuits arrived around the time of the COUNTER Reformation.

In the final analysis, More was a murderer... so no heaven for him, that's for sure. He was a phony humanist and a hypocrite.

Someone in this thread asked me to explain what Nostradamus is all about, and I gave a detailed answer in my own words, which you virtually ridiculed (thereby dismissing ten years of research), so I can see what you're all about. I didn't insult you back, but I was certainly justified in doing so.

[Thomas Mauer]

Except that More wanted Luther prosecuted as a heretic and executed.

As did all Catholics.

And it got even worse when the Jesuits arrived around the time of the COUNTER Reformation.

In the final analysis, More was a murderer... so no heaven for him, that's for sure. He was a phony humanist and a hypocrite.

Someone in this thread asked me to explain what Nostradamus is all about, and I gave a detailed answer in my own words, which you virtually ridiculed, so I can see what you're all about. I didn't insult you back, but I was certainly justified in doing so.
Did you read beyond that sentence? It's all about perspective.

[enobarbus]

At no point in this thread of mine have I ever stated that I "believe" in Nostradamus. In the first place, as an atheist, I obviously don't believe in biblical prophecy, or prophecy of any kind. So I look for the LOGICAL explanation, not the fantastic one.

And so, if you "predict" that the king of France will die soon, it's probably because you've met the assassin, seen the weapon, overheard the plan or were told about it in advance. There are many famous men of the 16th whom we KNOW were functioning as secret agents, including John Dee, Trithemius... even Christopher Marlowe and Thomas North. A paper trail leads straight to Nostr's door.

To understand what Michel de Notredame was truly all about, you really need to read his "secret" letters... which are kept at the BN in France. No matter what you might think of his "poems," there can be no doubt that he had a wide and receptive audience back in the mid 1500s.

How can I prove this without copy and paste? Well, I could direct you to...

Nostradamus - Lettres Inedites by Jean Dupebe (Geneva, Librairie Droz,1983) Bibilioteque Nationale BN Lat. #8592

In his Epistle to Henri II (which is actually a virtual rewrite of the one Trithemius sent to HIS king back in the early 1500s, which is why I TRIED to reproduce here, but have subsequently deleted because of one complaint), which introduced his full edition of Centuries, Michel attacked at length the "paganism of the new infidels," and his Ephemeris for 1561 was pointedly consecrated to Pope Pius IV. The next year, he dedicated an almanac to the Pope's cousin, Fabrizio Serbelloni, a Milanese authority who had been charged with suppressing heresy. In the dedication, Michel thanked Serb. for delivering the city of Avignon from "the enemies of God... the seditious madmen and tyrants of the new sects" and protested that their stated ambitions "resemble Judaism more than Christianity."

And yet, in his letters to the German Lutheran Lorenz Tubbe, this 'astrologer' (from a once-Jewish family, we suspect) was openly heretical, clearly proclaiming his strong Lutheran sympathies.

He referred to the Protestants as 'Christians' and called Catholics, whose violence he detested, 'Papists'. This declaration would have placed Michel against a stake with a generous supply of kindling, had it been intercepted:

To Tubbe in Augsburg (Hans Rosenberger's agent) May 13, 1562:

"...What you tell me from Anvers has upset me completely: What a monstrous barbarity exercised against Christians. We live in an abominable period, and the worst is yet to come. How I wish I would see no more of this!...if I don't send it's because the religious wars prevent me. Here, all the suspects have fled. I alone remain with my family, at the mercy of an insane people. If you wish, I will sum up for you the memorandum that I wrote on the beginning of the wars of religion in Provence.

"Last Feb, the Estates General were held in Prov; they spoke mostly of religious questions. The popular 'Hydra' did everything to prevent evangelical preaching, but nevertheless each city had its own ministers there. At Aix, capital of Prov. and seat of parliament, the cathedral Saint Saver [sic?] is especially full of ignorant priests...they use gold to buy the services of a nobleman, a certain Flassans.

"He used the worst kind of violence against the partisans of the Christian religion. The clergy lend a strong hand to this man, who was defending their interests... Each night, more violence broke out against suspects and the most powerful people. The Christians finally decided to defend themselves by sending one of their own, Mutones, to the king and queen (requesting inquiry into extortions committed and to reestablish order.)"

[WillieLee]

Did you read beyond that sentence? It's all about perspective.

Here's the thing about perspective.

Linear perspective is a mathematical system for creating the illusion of space and distance on a flat surface. The system originated in Florence, Italy in the early 1400s. The artist and architect Brunelleschi demonstrated its principles, but another architect and writer, Leon Battista Alberti was first to write down rules of linear perspective for artists to follow. Leonardo da Vinci probably learned Alberti's system while serving as an apprentice to the artist Verrocchio in Florence.

To use linear perspective an artist must first imagine the picture surface as an "open window" through which to see the painted world. Straight lines are then drawn on the canvas to represent the horizon and "visual rays" connecting the viewer's eye to a point in the distance.

The horizon line runs across the canvas at the eye level of the viewer. The horizon line is where the sky appears to meet the ground.

The vanishing point should be located near the center of the horizon line. The vanishing point is where all parallel lines (orthogonals) that run towards the horizon line appear to come together like train tracks in the distance.

Orthogonal lines are "visual rays" helping the viewer's eye to connect points around the edges of the canvas to the vanishing point. An artist uses them to align the edges of walls and paving stones.

[Thomas Mauer]

:lol:

Thanks for that, WillieLee.

[Copyboy]

Except that More wanted Luther prosecuted as a heretic and executed.

As did all Catholics.

The trouble began in 1517, when Albert of Brandenburg, the archbishop of Mainz, sponsored a sale of indulgences to pay for construction of Saint Peter's in Rome. In response, an Augustinian monk posted 95 theses on the door of the castle chapel in Wittenburg, Germany. The theses invited debate over the legitimacy of the sale of indulgences. Copies of the theses spread rapidly over Europe. The papacy took steps against this heretic; but the Wittenburg faculty supported him, because he was right. The aftermath was rather... predictable.

And it got even worse when the Jesuits arrived around the time of the COUNTER Reformation.

In the final analysis, More was a murderer... so no heaven for him, that's for sure. He was a phony humanist and a hypocrite.

Someone in this thread asked me to explain what Nostradamus is all about, and I gave a detailed answer in my own words, which you virtually ridiculed (thereby dismissing ten years of research), so I can see what you're all about. I didn't insult you back, but I was certainly justified in doing so.

Oh right. Listen. As a history major who really went over alot of this stuff I have to say you are being a bit silly. More sent people to their deaths. That is wrong. He also stood up for what he belived in against a king. Thats pretty cool. Of course all Catholics wanted Luther killed. In their eyes he was a hertic, preaching hearsy, in a world where the idea of God wasn't debated like it was today. God was absolute, so of course some silly man in the north was going to be viewed as hertic. Its only untill alot later the sweeping changes that Luther provided could be felt and truly understood. But at the time, he was a hertic and like More stood up for what he felt was right.

That being said, Luther was not a saint himself. Have you ever read the load of anti-semtic writing that he wrote? Before he was protected he praised the Jews calling them more true to Gods word then Catholics. However once he found himself safe with political backing he wrote some of the most anti-semtic works ever published, generating the sentiments in Northern Europe that would eventually fuel alot alot of really really really bad bad shit.

So i don't really understand what you are trying to prove?

[mike black]

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b5/boorite/Thread-Crap-Die.jpg

[enobarbus]

Oh right. Listen. As a history major who really went over alot of this stuff I have to say you are being a bit silly. More sent people to their deaths. That is wrong.

So far, we're in agreement.



He also stood up for what he belived in against a king. Thats pretty cool.


Well it would've been... if it hadn't been for the fact that he was betraying his own country in the process (having become a Vatican dupe).



Of course all Catholics wanted Luther killed. In their eyes he was a hertic, preaching hearsy, in a world where the idea of God wasn't debated like it was today. God was absolute, so of course some silly man in the north was going to be viewed as hertic. Its only untill alot later the sweeping changes that Luther provided could be felt and truly understood. But at the time, he was a hertic and like More stood up for what he felt was right.

we're still in agreement... up to the point where you write "like More." More stood up for what the VATICAN KNEW (unerringly) was right, because it was owned and operated by God Inc.



That being said, Luther was not a saint himself. Have you ever read the load of anti-semtic writing that he wrote? Before he was protected he praised the Jews calling them more true to Gods word then Catholics. However once he found himself safe with political backing he wrote some of the most anti-semtic works ever published, generating the sentiments in Northern Europe that would eventually fuel alot alot of really really really bad bad shit.

The Vatican SPECIALIZED in promoting anti-semitism, so there's nothing new there, and it would be more surprising if a German monk WASN'T anti-semitic. The foundation of that irrational hatred was as old as the New Testament, even then. But there were academic debates going on in Europe just before the time of Luther pertaining to "Jewish " writings that the Vatican wanted to ban and burn. Reformers and humanists like Melanchthon reopened the debate. [Melanchthon was the constant assistant of Luther in his translation of the Bible, and both the books of the Maccabees in Luther's Bible are ascribed to him. A Latin Bible published in 1529 at Wittenberg is designated as a common work of Melanchthon and Luther.]

Melanchton had been inspired by Johann Reuchlin (January 29, 1455 - June 30, 1522), a German humanist and a scholar of Greek and Hebrew. For much of his life, he was the real centre of all Greek and Hebrew teaching in Germany, defending the rights of Jews to possess books. (Vatican stooges like Pfefferkorn demanded that their books be burned. After all, the Inquisition was still in effect, and the Jews had been expelled from Spain in 1492.)

In fact, the very source of Nostradamus' writing (who came from a Jewish family that had converted) was De Septem Secundeis which was based on a treatise written by Abraham ibn Ezra in the 1100s - yet another book the Vatican wanted to burn. His writings include

The Book of the Secrets of the Law
The Mystery of the Form of the Letters
The Enigma of the Quiescent Letters
The Book of the Name
The Book of the Balance of the Sacred Language
and
The Book of Purity of the Language

If it hadn't been for Reuchlin - who was actually the heart and soul of the Reformation - the works of Ibn Ezra would've been destroyed by so-called humanists like More.



So i don't really understand what you are trying to prove?

I guess you missed the letters I excerpted here that prove Nostr was actually a Prot sympathizer. This much is easy to prove with a trip to the BN, if you feel so inclined. To be a humanist in the c16 was extremely dangerous, because the odds were stacked against you, so you had to operate in secret - hence the need for secret societies. This was especially true in France, where a man commonly known as Faber [godfather of humanism and towering intellect] actually started the fire of reformation in the early 1500s - BEFORE Luther.

There's actually a recent PBS series (http://www.pbs.org/empires/martinluther/index.html)(not sure if it's even aired yet) that argues the point that had it not been for the Reformation, we'd still be in Dark Ages... as there never would've been an Enlightenment ;-)

"Few if any men have changed the course of history like Martin Luther. In less than ten years, this fevered German monk plunged a knife into the heart of an empire that had ruled for a thousand years, and set in motion a train of revolution, war and conflict that would reshape Western civilization, and lift it out of the Dark Ages."

[Thomas Mauer]

There's actually a recent PBS series (not sure if it's even aired yet) that argues the point that had it not been for the Reformation, we'd still be in Dark Ages... as there never would've been an Enlightenment ;-)

:rofl:

[Copyboy]

So far, we're in agreement.



Well it would've been... if it hadn't been for the fact that he was betraying his own country in the process (having become a Vatican dupe).



we're still in agreement... up to the point where you write "like More." More stood up for what the VATICAN KNEW (unerringly) was right, because it was owned and operated by God Inc.



The Vatican SPECIALIZED in promoting anti-semitism, so there's nothing new there, and it would be more surprising if a German monk WASN'T anti-semitic. The foundation of that irrational hatred was as old as the New Testament, even then. But there were academic debates going on in Europe just before the time of Luther pertaining to "Jewish " writings that the Vatican wanted to ban and burn. Reformers and humanists like Melanchthon reopened the debate. [Melanchthon was the constant assistant of Luther in his translation of the Bible, and both the books of the Maccabees in Luther's Bible are ascribed to him. A Latin Bible published in 1529 at Wittenberg is designated as a common work of Melanchthon and Luther.]

Melanchton had been inspired by Johann Reuchlin (January 29, 1455 - June 30, 1522), a German humanist and a scholar of Greek and Hebrew. For much of his life, he was the real centre of all Greek and Hebrew teaching in Germany, defending the rights of Jews to possess books. (Vatican stooges like Pfefferkorn demanded that their books be burned. After all, the Inquisition was still in effect, and the Jews had been expelled from Spain in 1492.)

In fact, the very source of Nostradamus' writing (who came from a Jewish family that had converted) was De Septem Secundeis which was based on a treatise written by Abraham ibn Ezra in the 1100s - yet another book the Vatican wanted to burn. His writings include

The Book of the Secrets of the Law
The Mystery of the Form of the Letters
The Enigma of the Quiescent Letters
The Book of the Name
The Book of the Balance of the Sacred Language
and
The Book of Purity of the Language

If it hadn't been for Reuchlin - who was actually the heart and soul of the Reformation - the works of Ibn Ezra would've been destroyed by so-called humanists like More.



I guess you missed the letters I excerpted here that prove Nostr was actually a Prot sympathizer. This much is easy to prove with a trip to the BN, if you feel so inclined. To be a humanist in the c16 was extremely dangerous, because the odds were stacked against you, so you had to operate in secret - hence the need for secret societies. This was especially true in France, where a man commonly known as Faber [godfather of humanism and towering intellect] actually started the fire of reformation in the early 1500s - BEFORE Luther.

There's actually a recent PBS series (http://www.pbs.org/empires/martinluther/index.html)(not sure if it's even aired yet) that argues the point that had it not been for the Reformation, we'd still be in Dark Ages... as there never would've been an Enlightenment ;-)

"Few if any men have changed the course of history like Martin Luther. In less than ten years, this fevered German monk plunged a knife into the heart of an empire that had ruled for a thousand years, and set in motion a train of revolution, war and conflict that would reshape Western civilization, and lift it out of the Dark Ages."


Well. Again not really that right. By the time Luther pins his note to the wall, a little thing called the Renaissance was happening. This in turn lead to a little something called the Northern Renaissance, and thats exactly when Martain Luther tacks his shit up against that door. To your other point that the Vatican SPECIALIZED!!!!!!! in the persicution of the Jews, again not really right, more like a half truth. Yes the inquisition in Spain was ruthless to the Jews, but again you didn't want to practice Islam either. They never singled them out. And again you didn't really want to be a Native American either in Spainish territory either for that matter. While there had been anti-semetic texts writen, it doesn't even come close to Luthers fun and cuddly work "On the Jews and their lies," Or "Against the Sabbatarians." In these he calls for people set fire to their synagogues and schools, to take away their homes, forbad them to pray or teach, or even to utter God's name. Now I wonder what other German years later would use Luther as a perfect example of what he was doing is right.....

Also he sided against the peasent revolt with the Princese, when they revolted for him.

But this again is all beside the point. If your argument was that "Nostr was actually a Prot sympathizer," that has nothing to do with the fact that people were saying they don't belive in conspiracy theories or works of prophecy. And also if your point was that he sympathized, why didn't you just talk about that? Why for such an aclaimed aitheist do you rip down the Catholics and elevate the Protesters so much? They are both as scummy as each other in my book. They each benfited and also hurt civilization equally in my book.

I've used Godwin's law now can this tread die?