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View Full Version : Diamond Vs P.O.D. and other ramblings



noble
05-23-2005, 10:49 AM
Getting your book into readers hands. Of course anybody in the industry knows that if you want your book in the stores, thereís only one way to do this. When it comes to distribution there is no one better. Sure they take over half your profits, they can decide your entire careerís fate at a moments notice, and if for some reason they decide they donít like you, youíre dropped, and in essence dead in the water. But since they get your books into stores theyíre great. Doesnít sound too great to me either.
There had to be another way, and soon one presented itself. A little startup company called Comixpress. They promised on demand printing, and would implement a distribution system as well. This sounded to good to be true. Once I started working with them, I discovered not only were they as good as they advertised, they went above and beyond the call of duty to make sure everything with your book was perfect. After getting a book printed up with them, I suggested that everyone at Ronin use Comixpress for their printing needs. Now, I hear people saying that POD (print on demand) comics are crappy. Not the quality of the printing, but the quality of the stories and creators that use such services. You must not have any faith in your stories if youíre too scared to commit to a full print run from a Ďrealí printer. Bullshit. Double bullshit sandwich with a dabble of bullshit on the side. Printing up 3000 copies of a book that you then have to store for the next year, when someone is offering to print them up as you need them? Well that just sounds stupid to me.
Has this ever happened to you? You hear an issue of a book youíve been looking for is out on the stands. You hit the comic shop. Sorry itís sold out. They can re-order them for you but they might be out of stock. If thatís the case it can take 1-4 months before thereís any more available. If at all. Best case scenario you have to wait two more weeks before you get your hands on it. Not with POD. Not anymore. Our books are always in print. You want it, you order it, you got it. Doesnít matter if the issue came out six days or six years ago. Itís available to you. This also does away with those stupid second, third ,and fourth printings, which make the first printing oh so valuable. Thatís sarcasm kiddies. Which makes the bigger dogs nervous. How can they boast that they totally sold out of superduperstupid man #1 if theyíre always in print? Why would you be proud of the fact that people that want to read your story canít? On the subject of the books themselves being of the not good variety, have you read Scar Tissue? What about Vicenteís amazing pencils on Futureís End? Tyr, Thistleheart, Slip Kid, The Venger, Corrective Measures or any of the dozens of other projects Ronin Studios is producing. Any one of these books are just as good, if not better than 80% of the product carried in Previews. Itís not that we canít get in their book, we donít want in.
Mark my words POD is the future of this industry. Remember Napster? When it came out, and only a few people realized it was the future of the music industry? The archaic system of distribution tried to tear it down every chance they got, however it still thrived. Now we have music stores reporting losses, and I - Tunes and a dozen other ways you can get your music from the comfort of your own home. You even have kiosks in the bigger record stores where you can pick songs and burn your own custom CD right there. You canít hold the future back. When it shows up the old guard gets nervous and tries to fight it tooth and nail. But still it thrives, and grows until the old way is gone and forgotten.

CraigM
05-23-2005, 10:52 AM
*claps loudly*

Amen Noble, amen!

Craig

Jade
05-23-2005, 11:03 AM
I agree that POD is a wonderful technological advance. And I think it's something that all publishers could theoretically get a lot of use out of. But you have to look outside of the comic publishing world. POD has been in use in the book publishing world for quite a few years now. It has a lengthy history, a history which has been set. That history has set a stigma. Part of that stigma is that POD books are, most of the time, of inferior quality, content wise. And this sucks for the people who are putting out quality books.

Aside from the monetary investment, books put out by publishing companies show to retailers that someone other than the creators put their stamp of approval on the books. Having a book in Diamond says the same thing. In a world of nonreturnables, this is important to the livelihood of retailers.

So, I do understand your frustration. But I do hope you understand there are reasons for why things are as they are. I hope one day that can change.

alexlannin
05-23-2005, 11:07 AM
If there was a way for me, as a retailer, to order and reorder the books online wholesale, I'd do it in a second. That's what Diamond does. Right now, comixpress is only set up for its own retail. If Ronin would set up some sort of wholesale deals, I'd look at them as a whole instead of on a book-by-book basis dealing with individual creators. If you're really going to take on Diamond and change the industry, I think that's what needs to happen.

CraigM
05-23-2005, 11:08 AM
If there was a way for me, as a retailer, to order and reorder the books online wholesale, I'd do it in a second. That's what Diamond does. Right now, comixpress is only set up for its own retail. If Ronin would set up some sort of wholesale deals, I'd look at them as a whole instead of on a book-by-book basis dealing with individual creators. If you're really going to take on Diamond and change the industry, I think that's what needs to happen.

We're looking into it, and I think June 1st will be a date you're looking forward to ;-)

Craig

Ray G.
05-23-2005, 11:08 AM
Damn skippy. Fuck Diamond! Fight the power!

alexlannin
05-23-2005, 11:10 AM
We're looking into it, and I think June 1st will be a date you're looking forward to ;-)

Craig
Awesome, I know it would make a world of difference in me carrying titles. Also, putting together some sort of newsletter shops can carry, ala CSN, would help people be able to get a glimpse at your titles when they come in to a shop.

Artie Pink
05-23-2005, 11:12 AM
Remember to be mad at Marvel for running Diamond competitor Capital City Distributors out of business back in the late 90's.

Shane W
05-23-2005, 11:12 AM
We're looking into it, and I think June 1st will be a date you're looking forward to ;-)

Craig

That's the day Shylock #1 is released!

CraigM
05-23-2005, 11:13 AM
Awesome, I know it would make a world of difference in me carrying titles. Also, putting together some sort of newsletter shops can carry, ala CSN, would help people be able to get a glimpse at your titles when they come in to a shop.

Alex, I can promise you this. At the end of this summer, you will be shocked at the transformation that Ronin is taking and the steps we're taking to please as many retailers as we possibly can as well as all readers. I feel like June 1st is going to be a huge day for us. That's not to say everything will be implemented on that date, but it will be a big start to it all, and we're only going to charge forward.

Craig

alexlannin
05-23-2005, 11:14 AM
Remember to be mad at Marvel for running Diamond competitor Capital City Distributors out of business back in the late 90's.
I remember there being at least a handful of distributors back when I started really reading comics. I assumed the black and white explosion that followed TMNT's success put them all out of business.

Olivier E.
05-23-2005, 11:18 AM
The problem is that there's also a market beyond from the States and POD can't reach it. :(

alexlannin
05-23-2005, 11:20 AM
The problem is that there's also a market beyond from the States and POD can't reach it. :(
Why not?

chamber715
05-23-2005, 11:47 AM
Mark my words POD is the future of this industry.

While I think POD has a future in the industry, I don't know if it is the future of the industry.

There are things the a POD system does well that a traditional print and distribute system does not. And I think POD's greatest strength is it's greatest weakness as well. It does small print runs well, without financial risk to the publisher. You can print one or you can print 1653 without losing money.

But at the same time, what if you have a need for a huge print run? You're making the same amount of money off of the first book you sell as the 1653rd book you sell. In traditional printing, you get price breaks with the higher quantity of books you print. So if I know I can sell 1653 or more copies of a comic, there's a point at which printing via a traditional system will be more profitable.

From a little fish perspective, like most of us self-publishers on the board, POD is great. But from a big fish perspective, it's just not fiscally feasible. I don't think POD is going to go anywhere, but at the same time I don't think it'll replace traditional print and distribute systems either.

TripWire
05-23-2005, 11:57 AM
Getting your book into readers hands. Of course anybody in the industry knows that if you want your book in the stores, thereís only one way to do this. When it comes to distribution there is no one better. Sure they take over half your profits, they can decide your entire careerís fate at a moments notice, and if for some reason they decide they donít like you, youíre dropped, and in essence dead in the water. But since they get your books into stores theyíre great. Doesnít sound too great to me either.
What you're neglecting to point out is that Diamond has also spent the time developing relationships with retailers, establishing a retail channel that works for them (or they'd be out of business) and that has worked for many different publishers in the past. Does it make you rich? No, probably not, but that isn't their problem. They're in business to make money. They also need to pay their sales staff, overhead, and all of the other associated costs that go along with running a multi-million dollar company. If you think you'll be able to contact all of the stores by yourself, develop good relationships with all of the buyers, and still have enough time to oversee the production and management of the Ronin projects, you might be in for a surprise.


There had to be another way, and soon one presented itself. A little startup company called Comixpress. They promised on demand printing, and would implement a distribution system as well. This sounded to good to be true. Once I started working with them, I discovered not only were they as good as they advertised, they went above and beyond the call of duty to make sure everything with your book was perfect. After getting a book printed up with them, I suggested that everyone at Ronin use Comixpress for their printing needs. Now, I hear people saying that POD (print on demand) comics are crappy. Not the quality of the printing, but the quality of the stories and creators that use such services. You must not have any faith in your stories if youíre too scared to commit to a full print run from a Ďrealí printer. Bullshit. Double bullshit sandwich with a dabble of bullshit on the side. Printing up 3000 copies of a book that you then have to store for the next year, when someone is offering to print them up as you need them? Well that just sounds stupid to me.

Typically POD projects have a much higher per/book cost than doing a larger run (where books become exponentially cheaper the further into a run you get). That, of course, cuts your margin from right under you. Furthermore, any books sent out for review are expensive. And as a company without a track record, people are going to want to see review copies.

Cheaper per/book print price plus wider distribution is a much more successful formula than a higher per/book print price lower distribution. The legitimacy that Diamond's name adds to your book is worth plenty, too. Don't kid yourself into thinking it's not.

Artie Pink
05-23-2005, 11:58 AM
I remember there being at least a handful of distributors back when I started really reading comics. I assumed the black and white explosion that followed TMNT's success put them all out of business.

Even when it was down to the big two, Diamond and Capital City, there was more room for diversity. Capital City was definitely the more "alternative" or indy of the two.

Olivier E.
05-23-2005, 12:03 PM
Why not?

15$ shipping :dunno: +import taxes

noble
05-23-2005, 12:30 PM
What you're neglecting to point out is that Diamond has also spent the time developing relationships with retailers, establishing a retail channel that works for them (or they'd be out of business) and that has worked for many different publishers in the past. Does it make you rich? No, probably not, but that isn't their problem. They're in business to make money. They also need to pay their sales staff, overhead, and all of the other associated costs that go along with running a multi-million dollar company. If you think you'll be able to contact all of the stores by yourself, develop good relationships with all of the buyers, and still have enough time to oversee the production and management of the Ronin projects, you might be in for a surprise.


I was told this same thing when I started Ronin. People were telling me it would never get off the ground because you don't realize the amount of time, blah blah that it takes to get something like this going, you don't know what you're getting into, and it'll most likely fail. I think I've proven them wrong since then.



Typically POD projects have a much higher per/book cost than doing a larger run (where books become exponentially cheaper the further into a run you get). That, of course, cuts your margin from right under you. Furthermore, any books sent out for review are expensive. And as a company without a track record, people are going to want to see review copies.

Cheaper per/book print price plus wider distribution is a much more successful formula than a higher per/book print price lower distribution. The legitimacy that Diamond's name adds to your book is worth plenty, too. Don't kid yourself into thinking it's not.

Yeah but Diamond was once a little fish themselves. Now without any competition they're strangling the profits right out of the smaller creators. Why are we standing for this? Someone just like me a few decades ago said we should try to figure out a way to get comic specialty stores up and running. They were met with the same arguement, no one will use it, the system that is set up(newstand) is too hard to overcome, etc.

Now look at the state of the industry. Newstands are all but unimportant. Heck even comic stores are dwindling. More and more people are ordering their books via the internet. I don't even have a comic store within 60 miles of my house. There's only 2 within 100. The fast turnaround time of POD, coupled with the ease of internet ordering is going to be the future of this industry.

Is it going to happen this year? No. Hell it might not even happen for the next 10, but mark my words this is the start of the next phase of the industry.

alexlannin
05-23-2005, 12:35 PM
15$ shipping :dunno: +import taxes
Don't even large companies make the books more expensive to cover these costs?

James Patrick
05-23-2005, 12:42 PM
Who said the quality is crappy?

Give me a link, and I'll link them to my reviews -- reviews at Wizard, CBG, Comixtreme, Comicbook Galaxy, Movie Poop Shoot and other respected sites.

And I'll send them free books and tell them to shut the fuck up.

I have been discussion with several respected publishers and I still use Comixpress. I'd name the name of the publishers, but that wouldn't be professional.

There are a lot of books at comixpress, simply due to that volume, some books are not subjectively fantastic, but that's true for anything. Talent will come through, like always, and it provides people to fufill their dreams quickly and cheaply. There are good and bads, some would say . .

I say it's alllllll good.

CraigM
05-23-2005, 12:47 PM
Who said the quality is crappy?

Give me a link, and I'll link them to my reviews -- reviews at Wizard, CBG, Comixtreme, Comicbook Galaxy, Movie Poop Shoot and other respected sites.

And I'll send them free books and tell them to shut the fuck up.

I have been discussion with several respected publishers and I still use Comixpress. I'd name the name of the publishers, but that wouldn't be professional.

There are a lot of books at comixpress, simply due to that volume, some books are not subjectively fantastic, but that's true for anything. Talent will come through, like always, and it provides people to fufill their dreams quickly and cheaply. There are good and bads, some would say . .

I say it's alllllll good.

Very true. I've gotten good reviews at a couple of places, including ComiXtreme, and soon to be IGN Comcis. The quality of Ronin's books are quite good now and I think that they're only to get better with more time and more experience.

Craig

Jade
05-23-2005, 12:48 PM
Who said the quality is crappy?

It doesn't take long to research the history of POD in the general publishing industry to see where this view comes from. This has been a HUGE debate in the book publishing industry for years.

Jade
05-23-2005, 12:50 PM
Very true. I've gotten good reviews at a couple of places, including ComiXtreme, and soon to be IGN Comcis. The quality of Ronin's books are quite good now and I think that they're only to get better with more time and more experience.

Craig

And all I'm saying is that people who use POD are going to have a long uphill battle fighting the stigma that has already been set due to its use in the book publishing industry, especially if you want to be picked up in bookstores or by distributors.

TripWire
05-23-2005, 12:51 PM
Yeah but Diamond was once a little fish themselves. Now without any competition they're strangling the profits right out of the smaller creators.

How much is Diamond taking for Diamond? How much is Diamond having to take because the retailer demands a discount? If Diamond takes 60% off retail but they're passing 50% of that to the retailer, where is Diamond doing anything other than being paid for its service? To say that they are strangling anything is a stretch--they're trying to stay in business.

POD hasn't revolutionized any major segment of the traditional publishing industry even though it's been around for almost a decade. I don't know why it would be any different in the comic world.

As far as the hardwork--drawing any comparison between what you've done with Ronin and the hours and efforts that Diamond has put into what they've done is so unreasonable I don't know where to begin. Are you living off the money that Ronin brings in? In any business you can find marks that are willing to invest capital to make something happen so they can feel like they're a part of the business, it's what happens after the money runs out that matters. Sink or swim? Somebody else already brought up the point that POD does work if you're only going to sell 500 books. But at that point, it's nothing more than a hobby. An expensive hobby.

Mark my words.

noble
05-23-2005, 12:51 PM
There's been a lot of talk that people who use POD do so either because

A - They don't have faith in their own product and don't want to lose money on it by going with a 'traditional' printer

B - You couldn't get your books accepted by Diamond due to the quality(IE your work sucks) so you go with a POD that doesn't have any quality control.

Are all POD books top of the line grade A product? No. Hell 3/4 of Diamond's books aren't either. I don't understand this mentality of if any one can do it, then they must all be garbage.

I'm going to create and distribute a top selling book using comixpress. This is my goal in life to prove that you don't have to go the route everyone else is going just because it's the route everyone else is going.

Then I'm going to take that book, and shove it up the collective asses of all the naysayers.

And crack a little smile.

James Patrick
05-23-2005, 12:51 PM
Obviously, POD cuts down teh filtering system that publishers provide. But that doesn't mean there are not good books to be found -- just like it doesn't mean there aren't crappy books to be found by publishers.

James Patrick
05-23-2005, 12:56 PM
Diamond better be tolerant of Comixpress . . . because it's now a FUCKING monster. And while they're nowhere near Diamond's size or numbers, anyone could take any book there, and sooner or later, some biggies are going to srping out of it. And rather than pissing off xpress now by being intolerant, they better be nice for when it will be a good thing for Diamond to have good relations with them.

noble
05-23-2005, 12:56 PM
It doesn't take long to research the history of POD in the general publishing industry to see where this view comes from. This has been a HUGE debate in the book publishing industry for years.


yeah but with new technology it's almost impossible to tell a comixpress book from a traditional printed one if you're referring to the quality of the print work.

If you're referring to the quality of the work inside the books, then if you put out a quality product people will notice it. Word will get out, and the stigma will go away.

Remember how tough Marvel had to convince people the creativly bankrupt days of the mid nineties were over? They were struggling on the brink of bankruptcy for so long, but over time of bring quality stories you got a sense of trust and faith in their work.

Again it's not going to go away over night, but it will with time, and we've got nothing but.

Jade
05-23-2005, 01:00 PM
Are all POD books top of the line grade A product? No. Hell 3/4 of Diamond's books aren't either. I don't understand this mentality of if any one can do it, then they must all be garbage.

I'm going to create and distribute a top selling book using comixpress. This is my goal in life to prove that you don't have to go the route everyone else is going just because it's the route everyone else is going.

I read Diamond only accepts 30% of the books that are submitted to them. What this means to the retailers is that they've filtered through a lot of less than average quality books. So, to say that 3/4ths of what they solicit are crap just attests to what you think of what the comic industry has to offer. Because they've already filtered out 70% of the books that they feel are sub-par.

Having a dual-distribution model is good business. I've been to many a publishing conference where "dual distribution" was pounded into my head. But likewise, to cut out a form of distribution isn't what's in the best interest of your books. Bookstore distributors don't offer the nonreturnable policy that Diamond does. Therefore, a bookstore can order books from me and return 90% of what they ordered MONTHS later. Does that mean I should ignore this additional form of distribution? No, because that would be limited the potential of my business and the books I publish.

James Patrick
05-23-2005, 01:04 PM
I read Diamond only accepts 30% of the books that are submitted to them. What this means to the retailers is that they've filtered through a lot of less than average quality books. So, to say that 3/4ths of what they solicit are crap just attests to what you think of what the comic industry has to offer. Because they've already filtered out 70% of the books that they feel are sub-par.



Unfortunately, I know of some excellent books Diamond has refused. Like Nate Pinkos' Atland.

TripWire
05-23-2005, 01:04 PM
There's been a lot of talk that people who use POD do so either because

A - They don't have faith in their own product and don't want to lose money on it by going with a 'traditional' printer

B - You couldn't get your books accepted by Diamond due to the quality(IE your work sucks) so you go with a POD that doesn't have any quality control.

And I'd say a lot of that talk is well founded, namely because those are two of the major reasons that people DO use POD.

Let me ask you this--was POD your first choice? Or have you submitted work to Image, etc. and have been rejected? Have you submitted Ronin books to Diamond? If so, did they reject them, and that's where this is all stemming from? I'd have a easier time understanding where you're coming from, if I knew that you were doing it in response to things that have already happened, instead of thinking that you feel like you've found some EUREKA! moment that has not proven to be the earth shaking invention that it was once thought of.


Are all POD books top of the line grade A product? No. Hell 3/4 of Diamond's books aren't either. I don't understand this mentality of if any one can do it, then they must all be garbage.

What proof are you offering that 75% of what Diamond carries is garbage? If it is, how do you explain Diamond staying in business as long as they have? Why didn't their competitors fare better if Diamond has such horrible sight when it comes to picking projects? Why hasn't somebody else come in and done it?


I'm going to create and distribute a top selling book using comixpress. This is my goal in life to prove that you don't have to go the route everyone else is going just because it's the route everyone else is going.

Then I'm going to take that book, and shove it up the collective asses of all the naysayers.

And crack a little smile.

Plenty of people have thrown millions of dollars at iUniverse, Xlibris, PublishAmerica, etc. thinking the same thing. And none of them have come even close. The fact of the matter, for better or for worse, is that the POD model does not work as a legitimate money making venture. It fits a niche--for people who have an urge to see their work in print and are happy with 200 sales. That'll never make money.

noble
05-23-2005, 01:12 PM
How much is Diamond taking for Diamond? How much is Diamond having to take because the retailer demands a discount? If Diamond takes 60% off retail but they're passing 50% of that to the retailer, where is Diamond doing anything other than being paid for its service? To say that they are strangling anything is a stretch--they're trying to stay in business.

Most retailers get 35% - 40% unless they are a bigger store. So if they have different percentages for retailers, why isn't there different percentages for creators. At the end of the day, after paying for your spot in previews, and diamond takes their cut you make around .40 cents an issue. If you're lucky.

POD hasn't revolutionized any major segment of the traditional publishing industry even though it's been around for almost a decade. I don't know why it would be any different in the comic world.

Comic books and traditional books are two vastly different markets. Comparing the two markets is like comparing a car dealership with a Harley dealership. What does or doesn't work out in one area, isn't going to have the same results in another.

As far as the hardwork--drawing any comparison between what you've done with Ronin and the hours and efforts that Diamond has put into what they've done is so unreasonable I don't know where to begin.

I can tell you have zero idea what you're talking about. Have you ever self published a comic? The hours required to do so are insane. Now multiply that by 10. That's the amount of books I'm currently writing and self publishing. Then ad in the 10 -12 hours a day every day, seven days a week to get the studio off the ground and running. Managing over 300 creators and 150 various projects in multiple stages of development. Factor in doing all the pre-press, convention preperation, setting up ads, interviews, and keeping things moving smoothly on a day to day basis. And I've kept this pace for the last 14 months. The studio is now at a point where it's becoming self sustaining and I can turn my attention to other areas.

Are you living off the money that Ronin brings in? In any business you can find marks that are willing to invest capital to make something happen so they can feel like they're a part of the business, it's what happens after the money runs out that matters. Sink or swim? Somebody else already brought up the point that POD does work if you're only going to sell 500 books. But at that point, it's nothing more than a hobby. An expensive hobby.

Mark my words.

Living off Ronin? Not yet we're not but we're just getting started in the grand scheme of things. Again there has never been anything in the industry like comixpress. They're about to launch a huge new distribution system. So maybe in the past 500 was a benchmark, but things are just getting started.

djcoffman
05-23-2005, 01:13 PM
I use Comixpress and I love it. It makes much more sense in my situation to use it.

#1, I won't be getting out to big shows for awhile because of my schedule at home. So stocking up on big print runs is retarded.

#2, my readers can get my book when it's available, and I don't have to remind them to preorder or whatever. People are lazy. Buying is impulse, even when you are a fan. Remember that.

I don't know what's up with Diamond. I've heard people say they wont take books because it's by Comixpress. But I've never heard them say anything on record about it. They'd be silly to not let people use them, as they are probably losing money when indys bail on them because they didnt get enough orders through their broken and tired system. :D

Personally, i HATE the term POD. It's like the "N" word of the print industry. Seriously. My advice to people submitting their work to Diamond and using a POD would be to tell them some other printer name or just say you're printing it local, and shipping it to them.

Hey, I think if I'm correct, one of the Comixpress books that was printed and sold through their site was actually picked up by Slave Labor. Emoboy?? I think. I don't know. So the other plus side is, this lets indy creators test out their wares, and make a nice little self published package to fish to publishers who can get you out there now. Just as Comixpress hit in on the niche of publishers wanting to print smaller amounts-- someone will come along that can make a smooth system for stores to actually buy up your product as well. It's an opportunity waiting to happen. I wouldnt be surprised if Diamond didn't jump on it themselves. They'd be retarded NOT to. I have it on REALLY good authority that some REALLY big fish were sniffing around about Comixpress and wanting to partner with them-- but Comixpress stayed on it's own. No need for anyone else to come in and steal the show. Besides, the REAL secret ingrediant to it is Logan and Jodi. Bottom line.

The playing field has been completely leveled on that front. The only thing standing in anyone's way now is MONEY and exposure and getting out there.. Also street cred. This is the only thing the known publishers have on you now. Other wise, publish away people!

The world NEEDS more comic books! Who cares how you get them out there!

CraigM
05-23-2005, 01:15 PM
And all I'm saying is that people who use POD are going to have a long uphill battle fighting the stigma that has already been set due to its use in the book publishing industry, especially if you want to be picked up in bookstores or by distributors.

It's actually pretty sad that people are stereotyping books just based on how they're printed. Selling 500 copies of a book is understandable, especially considering that most big printers don't offer those many copies, and you may not have the money to front 1500 copies.

And for those saying "Well, if a publisher wouldn't pick up the book, it must be bad", um... that's further from the truth. I'm sure Image, Dark Horse, Top Shelf, etc. have all passed up books and now they're doing well, making them look like idiots. Sometimes, publishers don't have the foresight of what is and what isn't going to do well. They're going off their own tastes.

Erik Larsen called the art on some of the Ronin books amateurish, when some of these artists have this nice, refined look that is far from amateurish. But, his tastes are different from ours. And some of these Ronin books that were hated on by Erik Larsen, are loved by members of the press and members of this board.

Craig

djcoffman
05-23-2005, 01:17 PM
Oh and on what Tripwire is saying-- I just want to add that publishing comic books is WAY different than that exploded book POD market.

It sound like you don't know what you're talking about. All you have to do is open up the indy section of Diamond and you WILL see a PILE of crap in there. And most indy books in there are lucky to sell 500 books. So for them, it's totally reasonable to NOT lose money.

It's all how you play your cards and the deals you work for yourself too. My books did extremely well through COmixpress. Way better than any Diamond numbers I'd ever get on average.

Jade
05-23-2005, 01:19 PM
One thing I'd like to point out, because it was mentioned about paying Diamond... it's free to be listed in Previews. It only costs to buy ad space, which you are not required to do. Which goes back to my other question, why is dual distribution a bad business model?

noble
05-23-2005, 01:20 PM
And I'd say a lot of that talk is well founded, namely because those are two of the major reasons that people DO use POD.

Let me ask you this--was POD your first choice? Or have you submitted work to Image, etc. and have been rejected? Have you submitted Ronin books to Diamond? If so, did they reject them, and that's where this is all stemming from? I'd have a easier time understanding where you're coming from, if I knew that you were doing it in response to things that have already happened, instead of thinking that you feel like you've found some EUREKA! moment that has not proven to be the earth shaking invention that it was once thought of.

Yes it was my first choice. I've never once submitted to Diamond nor do I plan to. I've been with Dreamweaver, and then moved to comixpress once they opened their doors. I liked where they were going with their business model, and new they had their eye on the future. How many people right here on the boards get's their books via on online source instead of a traditional comic store? More and more comic stores are going closing their doors. Yeah there's a select few that are thriving, but what about the rest of the country? There's almost no comic stores in all the south. Yeah there are some scattered here and there, but the biggest portion of the stores are in the 'blue' states. Diamond has almost no presence in the south except in these scattered stores. An online distribution system like comixpress can reach anyone with a computer, any time.



What proof are you offering that 75% of what Diamond carries is garbage? If it is, how do you explain Diamond staying in business as long as they have? Why didn't their competitors fare better if Diamond has such horrible sight when it comes to picking projects? Why hasn't somebody else come in and done it?

Why hasn't any one else done it? Because Diamond has Marvel, DC, Image, and Dark horse under exclusive contracts. To try to become a traditional distributor under these conditions is suicide without the big 4.



Plenty of people have thrown millions of dollars at iUniverse, Xlibris, PublishAmerica, etc. thinking the same thing. And none of them have come even close. The fact of the matter, for better or for worse, is that the POD model does not work as a legitimate money making venture. It fits a niche--for people who have an urge to see their work in print and are happy with 200 sales. That'll never make money.

I've made a career out of proving people wrong. Don't see any reason to stop now.

Jade
05-23-2005, 01:22 PM
It's actually pretty sad that people are stereotyping books just based on how they're printed. Selling 500 copies of a book is understandable, especially considering that most big printers don't offer those many copies, and you may not have the money to front 1500 copies.

And for those saying "Well, if a publisher wouldn't pick up the book, it must be bad", um... that's further from the truth. I'm sure Image, Dark Horse, Top Shelf, etc. have all passed up books and now they're doing well, making them look like idiots. Sometimes, publishers don't have the foresight of what is and what isn't going to do well. They're going off their own tastes.

Erik Larsen called the art on some of the Ronin books amateurish, when some of these artists have this nice, refined look that is far from amateurish. But, his tastes are different from ours. And some of these Ronin books that were hated on by Erik Larsen, are loved by members of the press and members of this board.

Craig

And I'm not at all saying that all POD books are bad. But from a business standpoint, when retailers have limited time and money, it helps them to have people who have weeded through a lot of the books for them (this being distributors and publishing companies).

noble
05-23-2005, 01:23 PM
One thing I'd like to point out, because it was mentioned about paying Diamond... it's free to be listed in Previews. It only costs to buy ad space, which you are not required to do. Which goes back to my other question, why is dual distribution a bad business model?

Duel isn't a bad model. When there is competition it keeps everyone in the game and keeps them fair.

There hasn't been any comp for diamond for almost ten years now. Which is why they have such a stranglehold on the industry.

Jade
05-23-2005, 01:26 PM
Duel isn't a bad model. When there is competition it keeps everyone in the game and keeps them fair.

There hasn't been any comp for diamond for almost ten years now. Which is why they have such a stranglehold on the industry.

But that doesn't mean you should discount them. It means you should use them IN ADDITION to other methods. As a new publisher I've talking to many retailers at conventions. One of the first questions they apprehensively asked was, "are your books going to be in Diamond?" When I said, "yes" they had a look of relief and were more open to talking to me. They trust Diamond and rely on Diamond to make their jobs easier.

CraigM
05-23-2005, 01:27 PM
And I'm not at all saying that all POD books are bad. But from a business standpoint, when retailers have limited time and money, it helps them to have people who have weeded through a lot of the books for them (this being distributors and publishing companies).

And still, retailers are going to go with a known book over an unknown book, right? So why spend 10,000 on a book that no one knows about when you can spend 1,000 on building it up so people know about it and are more likely to purchase the book?

Just because the books are weeded through, doesn't mean that retailers are more susceptible to buy them for their store.

Craig

TripWire
05-23-2005, 01:28 PM
Most retailers get 35% - 40% unless they are a bigger store. So if they have different percentages for retailers, why isn't there different percentages for creators. At the end of the day, after paying for your spot in previews, and diamond takes their cut you make around .40 cents an issue. If you're lucky.

So really, what Diamond is doing is taking somewhere around 20% of retail for the service they're providing? You understand why they're able to charge that, don't you? If not, what would you suggest they charge? Or do you think they should go out of business? I know that one of the main reasons that stores prefer to order from a distributor is because it limits the amount of invoices. So Diamond is providing that service to retail outlets.


Comic books and traditional books are two vastly different markets. Comparing the two markets is like comparing a car dealership with a Harley dealership. What does or doesn't work out in one area, isn't going to have the same results in another.

I don't know if I buy your analogy. But I do know that if anything POD would have less of a chance working in the Comic industry (by my estimation) simply because the margins are even thinner in Comics.

And that brings up something else--I've asked a few times now to address the issue of margins, higher production cost per piece and less distribution. In your responses, you've neglected to tackle that issue.


As far as the hardwork--drawing any comparison between what you've done with Ronin and the hours and efforts that Diamond has put into what they've done is so unreasonable I don't know where to begin.

I can tell you have zero idea what you're talking about. Have you ever self published a comic? The hours required to do so are insane. Now multiply that by 10. That's the amount of books I'm currently writing and self publishing. Then ad in the 10 -12 hours a day every day, seven days a week to get the studio off the ground and running. Managing over 300 creators and 150 various projects in multiple stages of development. Factor in doing all the pre-press, convention preperation, setting up ads, interviews, and keeping things moving smoothly on a day to day basis. And I've kept this pace for the last 14 months. The studio is now at a point where it's becoming self sustaining and I can turn my attention to other areas.

I can assure you that I've matched every single hour of yours and plenty more. I'm not going to get in a pissing contest over it. I'm also humble enough to know that Diamond has been around longer than I have and all of the hours that you're talking about were put in once upon a time and continue to be put in. I know it's fun to play the martyr role, but it wears thin, especially when you fail to recognize that other people have worked and continue to work just as hard if not harder.


Living off Ronin? Not yet we're not but we're just getting started in the grand scheme of things. Again there has never been anything in the industry like comixpress. They're about to launch a huge new distribution system. So maybe in the past 500 was a benchmark, but things are just getting started.

I'm admiting ignorance on this--but I have a question. Is comixpress providing this distribution service for free? Are they going to match the same capabilities and services that Diamond offers?

Jade
05-23-2005, 01:31 PM
And still, retailers are going to go with a known book over an unknown book, right? So why spend 10,000 on a book that no one knows about when you can spend 1,000 on building it up so people know about it and are more likely to purchase the book?

Just because the books are weeded through, doesn't mean that retailers are more susceptible to buy them for their store.

Craig

So, we further put the nail in the coffin of comic book stores?

CraigM
05-23-2005, 01:35 PM
So, we further put the nail in the coffin of comic book stores?

And how would building up a book through POD kill comic book stores? If anything, having a sound audience instead of no audience at all would help a book sell and get people into comic book store.

Craig

Jade
05-23-2005, 01:38 PM
And how would building up a book through POD kill comic book stores? If anything, having a sound audience instead of no audience at all would help a book sell and get people into comic book store.

Craig

I guess I just take the life of retailers too close to heart. But I try to view things as how it effects them. And that includes their access to books. It just seemed from some of the comments that it was being suggested we phase them out and bring in the world of online retailing exclusively. I hope I'm misreading that.

CraigM
05-23-2005, 01:43 PM
I guess I just take the life of retailers too close to heart. But I try to view things as how it effects them. And that includes their access to books. It just seemed from some of the comments that it was being suggested we phase them out and bring in the world of online retailing exclusively. I hope I'm misreading that.

In no way am I saying erase comic book stores. I'm saying that a creator building up an audience and a base of fans are going to help comic book stores up more then a creator spending tons of money going through Diamond, getting their book printed up, and then not having anyone buy the book.

Craig

Jade
05-23-2005, 01:45 PM
In no way am I saying erase comic book stores. I'm saying that a creator building up an audience and a base of fans are going to help comic book stores up more then a creator spending tons of money going through Diamond, getting their book printed up, and then not having anyone buy the book.

Craig

Which is where tons of promotion comes in, which has to be done regardless of the distribution method.

CraigM
05-23-2005, 01:46 PM
Which is where tons of promotion comes in, which has to be done regardless of the distribution method.

And going POD is a much sounder idea then going straight to Diamond in that regards.

Craig

Jade
05-23-2005, 01:47 PM
And going POD is a much sounder idea then going straight to Diamond in that regards.

Craig

How so?

CraigM
05-23-2005, 01:54 PM
How so?

I laid it out in the other posts.

Craig

Jade
05-23-2005, 01:58 PM
I laid it out in the other posts.

Craig

I apologize if I've irritated you. I really was curious.

CraigM
05-23-2005, 01:59 PM
I apologize if I've irritated you. I really was curious.

The last thing you could was irritate me beautiful. I just haven't felt well the last week almost and my energy is low, so writing a lot is taking it out of me big time.

Sorry.

Craig

TripWire
05-23-2005, 02:03 PM
I laid it out in the other posts.

Craig

I'm a bit unclear and I want to understand your point. Are you saying that the reason it makes sense to do POD instead of Diamond is because you'll have more money left for promotion? What about the promotional effects of Diamond?

noble
05-23-2005, 02:06 PM
So really, what Diamond is doing is taking somewhere around 20% of retail for the service they're providing? You understand why they're able to charge that, don't you? If not, what would you suggest they charge? Or do you think they should go out of business? I know that one of the main reasons that stores prefer to order from a distributor is because it limits the amount of invoices. So Diamond is providing that service to retail outlets.


I understand that they have to make money, but my spiel is if you can't cut out the middle man then go with the one sticking it to you the least. Comixpress charges 15% to have your books in their online store. That's a site better than 60%. Also there are behind the doors agreements in the works that will significantly lower this, that I can't talk about right now.


I don't know if I buy your analogy. But I do know that if anything POD would have less of a chance working in the Comic industry (by my estimation) simply because the margins are even thinner in Comics.

And that brings up something else--I've asked a few times now to address the issue of margins, higher production cost per piece and less distribution. In your responses, you've neglected to tackle that issue.

But I have brought it up. I said that comixpress is about to initiate a distribution system. The last six months have just been the alpha phase of the system. Right now it's set up for just the small few book orders that casual readers would place. That's all about to change.



I can assure you that I've matched every single hour of yours and plenty more. I'm not going to get in a pissing contest over it. I'm also humble enough to know that Diamond has been around longer than I have and all of the hours that you're talking about were put in once upon a time and continue to be put in. I know it's fun to play the martyr role, but it wears thin, especially when you fail to recognize that other people have worked and continue to work just as hard if not harder.

Pardon my question, but who are you? I don't doubt you've placed many hours in doing, whatever it is you do, but you just signed up with the express purpose of attacking POD. So my instincts tell me you're associated with Diamond somehow. If that's the case, this just backs up my we're making the establishment nervous statement.



I'm admiting ignorance on this--but I have a question. Is comixpress providing this distribution service for free? Are they going to match the same capabilities and services that Diamond offers?

Again all this is being set up now. We'll know more in the coming weeks.

noble
05-23-2005, 02:11 PM
I guess I just take the life of retailers too close to heart. But I try to view things as how it effects them. And that includes their access to books. It just seemed from some of the comments that it was being suggested we phase them out and bring in the world of online retailing exclusively. I hope I'm misreading that.

I love comic stores. Do NOT get me wrong. I think, and as it's been pointed out that they are slowly dying out. There's always going to be some around in the larger markets, but it's getting harder and harder to locate stores in the south/midwest markets. Am I advocating the closing of stores in favor of online ordering. No. I'm just looking towards the future. Look how many retail stores, are closing down due to online shopping. People like the convience of buying things from the comfort of their own homes. This goes back to the Napster music stores point I brought up. People can now download music via mp3's use I-pod's etc, and music stores are becoming more and more irrelevant.

I don't want comic stores to die out, but I'm looking towards the future, instead of living in the past. If that means moving towards the digital age with online distribution and store fronts, that's where I'm heading.

Jade
05-23-2005, 02:21 PM
I love comic stores. Do NOT get me wrong. I think, and as it's been pointed out that they are slowly dying out. There's always going to be some around in the larger markets, but it's getting harder and harder to locate stores in the south/midwest markets. Am I advocating the closing of stores in favor of online ordering. No. I'm just looking towards the future. Look how many retail stores, are closing down due to online shopping. People like the convience of buying things from the comfort of their own homes. This goes back to the Napster music stores point I brought up. People can now download music via mp3's use I-pod's etc, and music stores are becoming more and more irrelevant.

I don't want comic stores to die out, but I'm looking towards the future, instead of living in the past. If that means moving towards the digital age with online distribution and store fronts, that's where I'm heading.

But comic book stores are far more fragile than music stores. Which is why I advocate (and practice) a dual distribution model that INCLUDES Diamond. There's no reason to exclude them. We can use them in addition to other methods. Unlike bookstore distributors, Diamond doesn't make you sign an exclusive contract. Some people in the comic book industry really don't know how easy they have it with Diamond. I used to think the very same thing as you back when I was just a writer going through Image. But the more I researched it, the more I realized that Diamond is actually a pretty damn good company. But they should only be one in a group of many methods publishers use at the same time.

TripWire
05-23-2005, 02:27 PM
I understand that they have to make money, but my spiel is if you can't cut out the middle man then go with the one sticking it to you the least. Comixpress charges 15% to have your books in their online store. That's a site better than 60%. Also there are behind the doors agreements in the works that will significantly lower this, that I can't talk about right now.

You are really arguing apples and oranges here. It's intellectually dishonest to think you've drawn any sort of applicable parallel.

The two companies are doing two different things. Diamond isn't making 60% of your cover price. They have to pass along a significant part of that number to the retailer. Diamond isn't going after the individual customer, the end user, they're going after retailers who buy in bulk, not in single issues.


But I have brought it up. I said that comixpress is about to initiate a distribution system. The last six months have just been the alpha phase of the system. Right now it's set up for just the small few book orders that casual readers would place. That's all about to change.

Until you give any numbers, I don't know how you can herald comixpress as the savior. I don't have the comixpress distribution numbers in front of me. What percentage are they going to take? What percentage are they going to extend? What part of the market are they going to reach? When this system is implemented, we'll be able to more effectively compare the two companies.


Pardon my question, but who are you? I don't doubt you've placed many hours in doing, whatever it is you do, but you just signed up with the express purpose of attacking POD. So my instincts tell me you're associated with Diamond somehow. If that's the case, this just backs up my we're making the establishment nervous statement.

Well, we'll hope for your sake that your instincts are better about Ronin and comixpress than they are about who I am or what my connection to Diamond is. I'm somebody who has put in plenty of hours in publishing and has done plenty of homework on the advantages and disadvantages of POD. All of the hours that you were talking about, I've put them in. I've worked long and hard to understand what sort of effective business model you can run with going traditional vs. POD. I can promise you that I have no connection to Diamond. I can also promise you that until you show a business model that deals with the razor thin margins and limited distribution you aren't going to make Diamond nervous, in fact, I'd be surprised if they even knew you existed or cared one way or the other.


Again all this is being set up now. We'll know more in the coming weeks.

Until it does, until there are numbers in front of us to really compare the two, it all looks like Linus waiting for the Great Pumpkin to me. I will be the first person to admit that I'm wrong if the numbers you present make sense.

alexlannin
05-23-2005, 02:31 PM
But that doesn't mean you should discount them. It means you should use them IN ADDITION to other methods. As a new publisher I've talking to many retailers at conventions. One of the first questions they apprehensively asked was, "are your books going to be in Diamond?" When I said, "yes" they had a look of relief and were more open to talking to me. They trust Diamond and rely on Diamond to make their jobs easier.
I personally don't when it comes to indies, Saul's books are just one instance where they shipped each one of his titles to me late, there have been other books where they've just cancelled my orders. If there was an exclusive small press distributor, I probably would use them over Diamond, but that's me.

Jade
05-23-2005, 02:35 PM
I personally don't when it comes to indies, Saul's books are just one instance where they shipped each one of his titles to me late, there have been other books where they've just cancelled my orders. If there was an exclusive small press distributor, I probably would use them over Diamond, but that's me.

And I'm sure there are lots of retailers who feel this way. I'm just speaking from my experience from conventions and the CBIA board.

alexlannin
05-23-2005, 02:43 PM
"Most retailers get 35% - 40% unless they are a bigger store. So if they have different percentages for retailers, why isn't there different percentages for creators. At the end of the day, after paying for your spot in previews, and diamond takes their cut you make around .40 cents an issue. If you're lucky."
I'm not sure who said this, I saw it quoted by Tripwire. 50% is actually quite an easy discount to obtain, I'm one of the smallest stores I've ever been to, and that's what I get.

noble
05-23-2005, 02:48 PM
They might have changed their set up sine I was a retailer back in the late 90's. I was a pretty small store and was lucky to get 40%

alexlannin
05-23-2005, 02:52 PM
They might have changed their set up sine I was a retailer back in the late 90's. I was a pretty small store and was lucky to get 40%
Probably did, the hardest plateau for me to reach was 50% from Marvel, which I did easily once Avengers Disassembled started.
I'd also like to say that Diamond probably doesn't really care about this either way. They already DO have competition in the form of gaming distributors (I don't use Diamond at all for gaming since they burned me twice before big tournaments) and the trade paperback market. I honestly don't think they would worry about this much. As far as I can tell, as long as Marvel or DC doesn't leave, they'll do fine.

DanLTaylor
05-23-2005, 02:55 PM
I personally don't when it comes to indies, Saul's books are just one instance where they shipped each one of his titles to me late, there have been other books where they've just cancelled my orders. If there was an exclusive small press distributor, I probably would use them over Diamond, but that's me.
I'm sure this is nothing new to retailers, but there are two other comic distributors that handle indie titles - Cold Cut Distribution and FM International - both of which carried Hero Happy Hour in addition to Diamond.

TripWire
05-23-2005, 02:56 PM
I'm not sure who said this, I saw it quoted by Tripwire. 50% is actually quite an easy discount to obtain, I'm one of the smallest stores I've ever been to, and that's what I get.

I was quoting Noble. My whole point was that Diamond wasn't taking the full 60% discount, that they were passing most of the discount on to retailers. He gave the figure of 35-40%. Thank you for clarifying the issue.

alexlannin
05-23-2005, 02:56 PM
I'm sure this is nothing new to retailers, but there are two other comic distributors that handle indie titles - Cold Cut Distribution and FM International - both of which carried Hero Happy Hour in addition to Diamond.
I used a very small distributor to get some copies of Fleep, though he had no catalog or anything.

DanLTaylor
05-23-2005, 02:57 PM
At the end of the day, after paying for your spot in previews, and diamond takes their cut you make around .40 cents an issue. If you're lucky.
I never paid for a spot in Previews. I might have sold more if I had, but I never had to.

DanLTaylor
05-23-2005, 03:00 PM
FM International (http://www.fminternet.com/)

Cold Cut (http://www.coldcut.com/)

noble
05-23-2005, 03:02 PM
I never paid for a spot in Previews. I might have sold more if I had, but I never had to.

yeah I know you don't have to, but without some sort of visual ad to jump out at retailers, the words just start to blur together if you know what I mean.

alexlannin
05-23-2005, 03:03 PM
I was quoting Noble. My whole point was that Diamond wasn't taking the full 60% discount, that they were passing most of the discount on to retailers. He gave the figure of 35-40%. Thank you for clarifying the issue.
I personally find it almost impossible to figure out how anyone makes money in this industry unless you sell a huge volume.

alexlannin
05-23-2005, 03:05 PM
yeah I know you don't have to, but without some sort of visual ad to jump out at retailers, the words just start to blur together if you know what I mean.
It is easy to get lost in Previews, even after I've seen something early in the month I've forgotten about it later in the month. Honestly, Previews makes me dizzy.

alexlannin
05-23-2005, 03:05 PM
FM International (http://www.fminternet.com/)

Cold Cut (http://www.coldcut.com/)
I just emailed cold cut, they sound GREAT.

noble
05-23-2005, 03:06 PM
Do I have to say it?

Toss the salad.

Just Do Joe Quesada.

Two ingredients for any creator to make it big.

alexlannin
05-23-2005, 03:14 PM
Hey man, I really hope this works.

James Patrick
05-23-2005, 04:18 PM
I'm somebody who has put in plenty of hours in publishing and has done plenty of homework on the advantages and disadvantages of POD. All of the hours that you were talking about, I've put them in. I've worked long and hard to understand what sort of effective business model you can run with going traditional vs. POD. I can promise you that I have no connection to Diamond. I can also promise you that until you show a business model that deals with the razor thin margins and limited distribution you aren't going to make Diamond nervous, in fact, I'd be surprised if they even knew you existed or cared one way or the other.




So who are you? What's your name? Saying something like that on a messageboard without using your real name is empty. I use my real name, and my books have been in Diamond and Comixpress. I've self-published Crackurz and Lionxor and have Staring at the Sun coming out. When I say I've self-published and put the time in so I know what I'm talkng about, someone can do a google search if they haven't heard of me and see.



And there's one more point I'd like to address. This is general and not toward tripwire. One thing about comixpress is the flexibility. I put out the crackurz super special through Diamond, it did decently with a 3.99 cover price, around 600 copies, as well as countless convention sales, and I one of the stories at comixpress. Why? Because it was another way to distribute it. Since I don't give a fuck about collectablility, I sent them a disk, sent them 15.00, and let people buy that book off of there without having to move a finger. I've sold a lot more copies because of this. It's reaching more people. So, it's not just a system to use books that can't get into diamond, it can be used with diamond. It's up to the person using it, but people are saying POD is this and it's that, when it's whatever you make it to be.

alexlannin
05-23-2005, 04:39 PM
So who are you? What's your name? Saying something like that on a messageboard without using your real name is empty. I use my real name, and my books have been in Diamond and Comixpress. I've self-published Crackurz and Lionxor and have Staring at the Sun coming out. When I say I've self-published and put the time in so I know what I'm talkng about, someone can do a google search if they haven't heard of me and see.



And there's one more point I'd like to address. This is general and not toward tripwire. One thing about comixpress is the flexibility. I put out the crackurz super special through Diamond, it did decently with a 3.99 cover price, around 600 copies, as well as countless convention sales, and I one of the stories at comixpress. Why? Because it was another way to distribute it. Since I don't give a fuck about collectablility, I sent them a disk, sent them 15.00, and let people buy that book off of there without having to move a finger. I've sold a lot more copies because of this. It's reaching more people. So, it's not just a system to use books that can't get into diamond, it can be used with diamond. It's up to the person using it, but people are saying POD is this and it's that, when it's whatever you make it to be.

I think that's Jade's point, that it's smart to use both if you can. I personally would love to circumvent Diamond and be able to order from comixpress wholesale, and I think that's what Noble's talking about.

James Patrick
05-23-2005, 04:48 PM
I think that's Jade's point, that it's smart to use both if you can. I personally would love to circumvent Diamond and be able to order from comixpress wholesale, and I think that's what Noble's talking about.

Yeah. I not only wanted to say that I've done that, but that I did it in a way that wasn't traditional. I reprinted material through comixpress, because the service is there and it makes it available. That comixpress has a certain flexability if people approach it creatively.

alexlannin
05-23-2005, 04:50 PM
Yeah. I not only wanted to say that I've done that, but that I did it in a way that wasn't traditional. I reprinted material through comixpress, because the service is there and it makes it available. That comixpress has a certain flexability if people approach it creatively.
Honestly, it sounds great, I just hope, if they do what Noble seems to be hinting at, that they can keep up with demand, it doesn't sound like they're very fast, at least from what I read here.

noble
05-23-2005, 04:59 PM
At the start they weren't very fast. They recently installed some faster equipment which promises turn around time of 2 weeks from the time you put a first printing order in until you have them in your hands. Once they get caught up from the backlog of orders, both from the older equipment and the time they took off to install new equipment, it's going to be a world of difference.

The longest I've had to wait for a book from Comixpress is 8 weeks. Most times it's 4-6 and if I let them know a specific need it now date, they always hit it. I've never had them miss a print date with me, and we've put in almost 20 print jobs in the last seven months.

alexlannin
05-23-2005, 05:11 PM
At the start they weren't very fast. They recently installed some faster equipment which promises turn around time of 2 weeks from the time you put a first printing order in until you have them in your hands. Once they get caught up from the backlog of orders, both from the older equipment and the time they took off to install new equipment, it's going to be a world of difference.

The longest I've had to wait for a book from Comixpress is 8 weeks. Most times it's 4-6 and if I let them know a specific need it now date, they always hit it. I've never had them miss a print date with me, and we've put in almost 20 print jobs in the last seven months.
I'm glad, that's really good to know.

Thomas Mauer
05-23-2005, 05:37 PM
Doesn't Marvel use POD for their Masterworks program? I seem to remember an Amazon listing saying that the wait on these books is so long if ordered through them because they're printed on demand.

CraigM
05-23-2005, 08:31 PM
At the start they weren't very fast. They recently installed some faster equipment which promises turn around time of 2 weeks from the time you put a first printing order in until you have them in your hands. Once they get caught up from the backlog of orders, both from the older equipment and the time they took off to install new equipment, it's going to be a world of difference.

The longest I've had to wait for a book from Comixpress is 8 weeks. Most times it's 4-6 and if I let them know a specific need it now date, they always hit it. I've never had them miss a print date with me, and we've put in almost 20 print jobs in the last seven months.

ComiXpress has been awesome. I just got the order for Tyr #3 in time for Philly.

Craig

noble
05-23-2005, 08:48 PM
Varied scaries #2 should be here in a week or so ;)

CraigM
05-23-2005, 08:55 PM
Varied scaries #2 should be here in a week or so ;)

Sweet. Now, you just need to get your bougie ass to Philly next week too.

Craig

Jade
05-24-2005, 12:05 AM
I think that's Jade's point, that it's smart to use both if you can. I personally would love to circumvent Diamond and be able to order from comixpress wholesale, and I think that's what Noble's talking about.

Exactly... if you've spent time in the small press circuit, you know that experts in the field (and they're experts because they've sold hundreds of thousands of their own books, as well as giving advice to others which assisted them in selling hundreds of thousands of copies of their books) are and have been stressing a dual distribution model. They'll tell anyone who is putting their eggs in one basket that they're being naive, uninformed, and careless. And it makes perfect sense. The more distribution models you use, the more your book will get out there.

Also, in response to the size of Previews... the catologs for bookstores are smaller than Previews... but they only come out a few times a year... and they take on far less companies... Bookstore distributors will not even look at you unless you have a proven track record that consists of no less than 10 books... We are very fortunate to have a distributor as accepting as Diamond. They're far more accepting of small press and self-publishers than bookstore distributors, and they give a far better deal.

Childress
05-24-2005, 12:55 AM
yeah I know you don't have to, but without some sort of visual ad to jump out at retailers, the words just start to blur together if you know what I mean.

do you have to buy an ad? no, but it would be stupid to turn away from a resource that is in the hands of so many consumers, AND would allow you to be listed at no charge.

do you think a business owner would refuse to be listed in the Yellow Pages? Yes it costs to buy an ad, but it's free to be listed. yes having an ad increases their chance of being contacted, but but will being listed at all increase your chances more than not being listed? Absolutely.

no legitimate business owner would turn away from that.

TripWire
05-24-2005, 06:45 AM
So who are you? What's your name? Saying something like that on a messageboard without using your real name is empty. I use my real name, and my books have been in Diamond and Comixpress. I've self-published Crackurz and Lionxor and have Staring at the Sun coming out. When I say I've self-published and put the time in so I know what I'm talkng about, someone can do a google search if they haven't heard of me and see.

Who I am isn't important to this thread. It doesn't change the economics of the business. It doesn't have any effect on the financial realities that are being debated.

Here is my point. Anybody can condemn Diamond all they want. They can say that Diamond is greedy, a middleman "strangling" the profits away from creators/publishing companies. That same person can talk about how they don't need Diamond to succeed.

But here are some things to consider. Diamond is, as of this moment, probably the largest recognized distributor of comic books. The company has a history, has stayed alive while its competitors have died, has a name, gives legitimacy to the projects that it chooses to undertake (in the eyes of retailers and by extension, end consumers), and certainly covers more of the marketplace than anybody else.

Noble initially complained that Diamond took 60%. And if nobody knew any better, we'd say "Why does Diamond get 60%?" But the fact is Diamond isn't getting 60%, it's much closer to 10% (with the bulk of that discount being given to the retailer).

My other point was that by doing any project on an On Demand basis, the cost associated with manufacturing an individual book goes up. That's fine if your goal is to sell 500 copies of something and break even. However, if your goal is to "shove comics up the asses" of the people who doubt you, POD doesn't work. Margins are too thin. Distribution too limited. It'd be one thing if you could make up for small margins by having large volume, but I just don't see how that's going to be possible without Diamond.

chamber715
05-24-2005, 06:58 AM
Exactly... if you've spent time in the small press circuit, you know that experts in the field (and they're experts because they've sold hundreds of thousands of their own books, as well as giving advice to others which assisted them in selling hundreds of thousands of copies of their books) are and have been stressing a dual distribution model. They'll tell anyone who is putting their eggs in one basket that they're being naive, uninformed, and careless. And it makes perfect sense. The more distribution models you use, the more your book will get out there.

I wonder if a distributor like Diamond would ever get into the POD business... or possibly partner with a POD company. The larger volume books would be printed and presented the traditional way, but smaller volume books would be printed POD. But thinking about it now, I don't think that would be feasible just because of the cost of printing POD...

alexlannin
05-24-2005, 07:16 AM
I wonder if a distributor like Diamond would ever get into the POD business... or possibly partner with a POD company. The larger volume books would be printed and presented the traditional way, but smaller volume books would be printed POD. But thinking about it now, I don't think that would be feasible just because of the cost of printing POD...
If it were financially beneficial, I'm sure they would. I wouldn't look for that anytime soon though.

alexlannin
05-24-2005, 07:26 AM
Who I am isn't important to this thread. It doesn't change the economics of the business. It doesn't have any effect on the financial realities that are being debated.

Here is my point. Anybody can condemn Diamond all they want. They can say that Diamond is greedy, a middleman "strangling" the profits away from creators/publishing companies. That same person can talk about how they don't need Diamond to succeed.

But here are some things to consider. Diamond is, as of this moment, probably the largest recognized distributor of comic books. The company has a history, has stayed alive while its competitors have died, has a name, gives legitimacy to the projects that it chooses to undertake (in the eyes of retailers and by extension, end consumers), and certainly covers more of the marketplace than anybody else.

Noble initially complained that Diamond took 60%. And if nobody knew any better, we'd say "Why does Diamond get 60%?" But the fact is Diamond isn't getting 60%, it's much closer to 10% (with the bulk of that discount being given to the retailer).

My other point was that by doing any project on an On Demand basis, the cost associated with manufacturing an individual book goes up. That's fine if your goal is to sell 500 copies of something and break even. However, if your goal is to "shove comics up the asses" of the people who doubt you, POD doesn't work. Margins are too thin. Distribution too limited. It'd be one thing if you could make up for small margins by having large volume, but I just don't see how that's going to be possible without Diamond.

Good points. Interestingly, my first job was working for a small press publisher. They published comics that were designed to promote literacy, and would make appearances all around the world. They had HUGE print runs despite being ignored by Diamond almost completely. What they would do is go to a city, be sponsored by a local paper, do an appearance where the price of sponsorship came with them giving away thousands of comics, as they were paid for by the sponsor. They would usually paint a mural during the appearance with their characters in the city of the appearance. It was the most interesting way I'd seen a publisher that didn't have anything superhero related in its roster go outside the comic book market. They just knew that typical "comic book fans" weren't interested in their books, and found an outside way to create comics for a living, while working towards a good cause. My point is if you're going to say "F Diamond" you better have a good game plan and creative way for getting your books in the hands of people.

chamber715
05-24-2005, 07:31 AM
If it were financially beneficial, I'm sure they would. I wouldn't look for that anytime soon though.

But the thing of it is, I can't see how it would be financially beneficial for Diamond. That's the nature of POD. Flat cost, flat profits.

alexlannin
05-24-2005, 07:32 AM
But the thing of it is, I can't see how it would be financially beneficial for Diamond. That's the nature of POD. Flat cost, flat profits.
The price would probably be raised.

James Patrick
05-24-2005, 07:32 AM
Who I am isn't important to this thread. It doesn't change the economics of the business. It doesn't have any effect on the financial realities that are being debated.

Here is my point. Anybody can condemn Diamond all they want. They can say that Diamond is greedy, a middleman "strangling" the profits away from creators/publishing companies. That same person can talk about how they don't need Diamond to succeed.

But here are some things to consider. Diamond is, as of this moment, probably the largest recognized distributor of comic books. The company has a history, has stayed alive while its competitors have died, has a name, gives legitimacy to the projects that it chooses to undertake (in the eyes of retailers and by extension, end consumers), and certainly covers more of the marketplace than anybody else.

Noble initially complained that Diamond took 60%. And if nobody knew any better, we'd say "Why does Diamond get 60%?" But the fact is Diamond isn't getting 60%, it's much closer to 10% (with the bulk of that discount being given to the retailer).

My other point was that by doing any project on an On Demand basis, the cost associated with manufacturing an individual book goes up. That's fine if your goal is to sell 500 copies of something and break even. However, if your goal is to "shove comics up the asses" of the people who doubt you, POD doesn't work. Margins are too thin. Distribution too limited. It'd be one thing if you could make up for small margins by having large volume, but I just don't see how that's going to be possible without Diamond.

I think who you are or what you've published is vitally important to give your argument weight when you say you know these things because you've put the hours in publishing. But if you don't want to give your name, I can't make you, and I won't ask again. Besides, I think know who this is, which makes me understand why you won't use your name. There's one person I know who hops around doing this in comixpress threads, nearly all the criticism coming from one source, just a loud one. And people are starting recognize that. Giving your name and what you publish would dispell that as well.

I'm not going to argue with you on Diamond. I wasn't doing that before because you're right on several points. That doesn't mean monopolization hasn't made them uncaring to retatilers and lazy on recognizing quality new talent -- that they'd rather have a books with tits on the cover than some quality indie books. And that doesn't mean the right book won't put comixpress on the map.

Yes, the cost of making a comixpress comic does get more expensive when you get into numbers like 2000. But I don't think making a dollar on every book you print and sell at comixpress is a thin profiit margin. The margin is reduced, the profit is smaller, but saying it "doesn't work" is insane. It's just not as rewarding in the long run financially. That's the gamble against not putting up as much money in the beginning. It sitll works, it just doesn't work as well. You make a dollar on every book instead of 2.00 on 10,000 print run. SInce there are so many print runs in the 10,000. Yes, distribution is limited, and if you want to reach as many as you can, utilize diamond with it -- but that doesn't mean a book or books won't break out on comixpress. Is Lionxor a breakout to the, uh, mainstream indie world? No. Has it sold a lot of copies and does it continue to? Yes.

Comixpress is a huge success. Most people are happy with it. The people that aren't are so because of lack of communication, not limited distribution.

noble
05-24-2005, 07:34 AM
Who I am isn't important to this thread. It doesn't change the economics of the business. It doesn't have any effect on the financial realities that are being debated.

Here is my point. Anybody can condemn Diamond all they want. They can say that Diamond is greedy, a middleman "strangling" the profits away from creators/publishing companies. That same person can talk about how they don't need Diamond to succeed.

But here are some things to consider. Diamond is, as of this moment, probably the largest recognized distributor of comic books. The company has a history, has stayed alive while its competitors have died, has a name, gives legitimacy to the projects that it chooses to undertake (in the eyes of retailers and by extension, end consumers), and certainly covers more of the marketplace than anybody else.

Noble initially complained that Diamond took 60%. And if nobody knew any better, we'd say "Why does Diamond get 60%?" But the fact is Diamond isn't getting 60%, it's much closer to 10% (with the bulk of that discount being given to the retailer).

My other point was that by doing any project on an On Demand basis, the cost associated with manufacturing an individual book goes up. That's fine if your goal is to sell 500 copies of something and break even. However, if your goal is to "shove comics up the asses" of the people who doubt you, POD doesn't work. Margins are too thin. Distribution too limited. It'd be one thing if you could make up for small margins by having large volume, but I just don't see how that's going to be possible without Diamond.

Here's my point. Ronin succeeded by thinking outside the box. I took an untraditional way of setting up a studio and creating comics, and people took to it like you wouldn't believe. Financially we haven't succeeded because we're a young company just getting started, but our set up is working because I've seen no less than four studios start up in the last three months copying our methods to a T.

I'm taking the same approach to printing and distribution. As I've stated in my earlier posts, there are some behind the scenes deals set up that I CAN'T PUBLICLY TALK ABOUT to not only make Comixpress viable as a printer/distributor but profitable as well. So I know that you are going off the information you have available to you to make your conclusions, but what you have isn't all the information available.

Are we going to do Marvel/DC numbers? Probably not. But that was never the point. The point is that we can do just as good, if not better without the help of the established and outdated form of distribution.

When I said Diamond took 60% that's what I meant. When dealing with Diamond you lose 60% of the profits of your book. It doesn't matter if Diamond gets it, the retailers get it, or some hobo named George. The point is that when you distribute your book through Diamond you can take 60% of the cost of your book and kiss it goodbye, because you're never going to see it.

Yes Diamond is the established, #1 most trusted, etc, distributor in the business. But that wasn't always the case. They were once a small struggling company. Same as McDonald's, Microsoft, and any thousands of others I could name off. Over time they built up their name and reputation, by proving themselves. Comixpress has exploded over the eight months they've been in business and has proven themselves time and time again with the quality of their product. Now they're ready to move onto a much larger distribution aspect. Once they unveil their new services you'll see what I mean.

DanLTaylor
05-24-2005, 07:48 AM
It doesn't matter if Diamond gets it, the retailers get it, or some hobo named George. The point is that when you distribute your book through Diamond you can take 60% of the cost of your book and kiss it goodbye, because you're never going to see it.
Damn that hobo George. He owes me some bank for all of the issues of Hero Happy Hour I sold through Diamond. I will scour the boxcars of this nation's freight trains until I find him and collect.

alexlannin
05-24-2005, 07:50 AM
Damn that hobo George. He owes me some bank for all of the issues of Hero Happy Hour I sold through Diamond. I will scour the boxcars of this nation's freight trains until I find him and collect.
Hobo George was actually Bill Gates. He knows a good place to scam some dough when he sees it.

noble
05-24-2005, 07:54 AM
yes many a fledgling comic career has been cut short by George and his insatiable lust for Thunderbird.

We'll show him in the end.

djcoffman
05-24-2005, 07:59 AM
If I had to guess... and this is just a random guess, and I'm sure both people would deny it-- but I think "Tripwire" is "LJamal" from the Digital Webbing boards.

Partly because they use the same posting patterns and speaking about the business the same.

Ljamal had his panties in a bunch because it took Comixpress a while to get back to him on a project. And anytime Comixpress comes up, he feels the need to pounce on it and enact some sort of gay revenge for being late with him.

Blah..

alexlannin
05-24-2005, 08:01 AM
If I had to guess... and this is just a random guess, and I'm sure both people would deny it-- but I think "Tripwire" is "LJamal" from the Digital Webbing boards.

Partly because they use the same posting patterns and speaking about the business the same.

Ljamal had his panties in a bunch because it took Comixpress a while to get back to him on a project. And anytime Comixpress comes up, he feels the need to pounce on it and enact some sort of gay revenge for being late with him.

Blah..
Hate to sound too pc, but ..."gay revenge"?

Shane W
05-24-2005, 08:03 AM
Hate to sound too pc, but ..."gay revenge"?

Happy.

alexlannin
05-24-2005, 08:04 AM
Happy.
Oh, ok...carry on.

noble
05-24-2005, 08:07 AM
Maybe he means he's making it his personal mission to stick it in comixpress' ass. So therefore it could be kind of a gay revenge I supposse.

Feel free to ignore pretty much everything that comes out of my mouth ;)

djcoffman
05-24-2005, 08:21 AM
Gay revenge = Happy Revenge.

Not homosexual revenge. That's a WHOLE different story, girlfriend!

:grin:

alexlannin
05-24-2005, 08:22 AM
Gay revenge = Happy Revenge.

Not homosexual revenge. That's a WHOLE different story, girlfriend!

:grin:
Oh no you din't! :)
I'm glad his revenge makes him happy.

chamber715
05-24-2005, 09:03 AM
The price would probably be raised.

I'm not sure what price you mean...

TripWire
05-24-2005, 09:10 AM
I think who you are or what you've published is vitally important to give your argument weight when you say you know these things because you've put the hours in publishing. But if you don't want to give your name, I can't make you, and I won't ask again. Besides, I think know who this is, which makes me understand why you won't use your name. There's one person I know who hops around doing this in comixpress threads, nearly all the criticism coming from one source, just a loud one. And people are starting recognize that. Giving your name and what you publish would dispell that as well.

I can assure you that you don't know who I am. I have no axe to grind with comixpress (in fact I wish them well). My only involvement in this thread is to point out the shortsightedness of dismissing Diamond as a distribution option. I've got no vested interest in Diamond succeeding or failing as a business. I'm just looking at Noble's situation from an objective standpoint. I'm not getting caught up in the political bullshit, I'm simply pointing out economic truths that somebody who has no background in publishing or comics could understand (see: bank).

Lowered margins + lowered distribution = impossible long term survival (at least in any sort of profitable sense. If some money mark wants to come in and finance the operation for "prestige" then it can stay afloat).

Diamond has done plenty of work establishing who they are and what they do. As such, like any business, they are entitled to be compensated for their efforts. They aren't supposed to be "nice" or "friendly." They're a business and their loyalty is to their bottom line. If the reality of the business world shocks anybody trying to participate in it, then they might want to reconsider involvement.


That doesn't mean monopolization hasn't made them uncaring to retatilers and lazy on recognizing quality new talent -- that they'd rather have a books with tits on the cover than some quality indie books. And that doesn't mean the right book won't put comixpress on the map.

I'm in no position to comment on this, but I will take your word for it. It wouldn't surprise me. But the thing is--it works for them. They're still in business. If it didn't work for them, I'm sure they'd try to find the solution to the problem and if that meant caring quality indie books, then they'd do it in a heartbeat. I think, far too often, people mistake a company's indifference as a personal slight. It's not. To borrow a phrase--It's just business.


Yes, the cost of making a comixpress comic does get more expensive when you get into numbers like 2000. But I don't think making a dollar on every book you print and sell at comixpress is a thin profiit margin. The margin is reduced, the profit is smaller, but saying it "doesn't work" is insane. It's just not as rewarding in the long run financially.

And what I'm talking about is long term financial success, do this job 60 hour a week sales. I'm not talking about selling 500 or 1000 copies of an individual title. Sure it works for that, but you aren't going to make the cash to sustain a company if you're having to worry about salaries, marketing, overhead (rent, utilities, phone, etc.).

From my reading of Noble he wants to be a big player. Wants to make a splash. $50,000 a year in revenue isn't going to do that. Sorry.

alexlannin
05-24-2005, 09:11 AM
I'm not sure what price you mean...
the profit the printer would make off charging the person for printing the comic.

CraigM
05-24-2005, 09:17 AM
I can assure you that you don't know who I am. I have no axe to grind with comixpress (in fact I wish them well). My only involvement in this thread is to point out the shortsightedness of dismissing Diamond as a distribution option. I've got no vested interest in Diamond succeeding or failing as a business. I'm just looking at Noble's situation from an objective standpoint. I'm not getting caught up in the political bullshit, I'm simply pointing out economic truths that somebody who has no background in publishing or comics could understand (see: bank).

Lowered margins + lowered distribution = impossible long term survival (at least in any sort of profitable sense. If some money mark wants to come in and finance the operation for "prestige" then it can stay afloat).

Diamond has done plenty of work establishing who they are and what they do. As such, like any business, they are entitled to be compensated for their efforts. They aren't supposed to be "nice" or "friendly." They're a business and their loyalty is to their bottom line. If the reality of the business world shocks anybody trying to participate in it, then they might want to reconsider involvement.



I'm in no position to comment on this, but I will take your word for it. It wouldn't surprise me. But the thing is--it works for them. They're still in business. If it didn't work for them, I'm sure they'd try to find the solution to the problem and if that meant caring quality indie books, then they'd do it in a heartbeat. I think, far too often, people mistake a company's indifference as a personal slight. It's not. To borrow a phrase--It's just business.



And what I'm talking about is long term financial success, do this job 60 hour a week sales. I'm not talking about selling 500 or 1000 copies of an individual title. Sure it works for that, but you aren't going to make the cash to sustain a company if you're having to worry about salaries, marketing, overhead (rent, utilities, phone, etc.).

From my reading of Noble he wants to be a big player. Wants to make a splash. $50,000 a year in revenue isn't going to do that. Sorry.

Considering that company has made $0 a year in revenue and goes to 50K, I'd think that would be a pretty nice splash in this industry, making a sound name for itself, and gaining a solid fanbase. People think money is everything, and unfortunately in some cases it is. But, what you're failing to recognize is that without a solid, dedicated fanbase, you're nothing in the industry. Because, these are the people that are going to help your company get up off the ground.

And that, is ten times more important then any money. Because it brings loyalty. It brings respect. It brings connections that you can't create with money.

Craig

TripWire
05-24-2005, 09:27 AM
Here's my point. Ronin succeeded by thinking outside the box. I took an untraditional way of setting up a studio and creating comics, and people took to it like you wouldn't believe.

Succeeded? That makes it sound like you've been around for decades and you've done something great. Listen man, I'm happy you've started a company and I wish you well, but in this thread, I've seen a whole load of self-promoting and self-congratulating. Please tell me how the hell you understand what you've done as succeeding. What sort of revenue have you generated? What sort of critical acclaim have you garnered from recognized experts? Most small businesses die in their first three years. Those three years are usually filled with a mixture of optimism and despair. But like I said, I don't know, maybe you've been around for five years and I don't know what the hell I'm talking about.


Financially we haven't succeeded because we're a young company just getting started, but our set up is working because I've seen no less than four studios start up in the last three months copying our methods to a T.

Other people copying you in the last three months is hardly a gauge of success. If you all fail, are you going to take the blame?


I'm taking the same approach to printing and distribution. As I've stated in my earlier posts, there are some behind the scenes deals set up that I CAN'T PUBLICLY TALK ABOUT to not only make Comixpress viable as a printer/distributor but profitable as well. So I know that you are going off the information you have available to you to make your conclusions, but what you have isn't all the information available.

I'll certainly reexamine my position once I see those numbers. I do think it's odd that you would come on here, post the topic, and use the "yeah, but I've got a secret" justification when the rest of your argument has been demolished. That's all certainly more relevant than my identity (which really is no big thing).


Are we going to do Marvel/DC numbers? Probably not. But that was never the point. The point is that we can do just as good, if not better without the help of the established and outdated form of distribution.

I'm not expecting you to do Marvel/DC numbers. That isn't how I'm measuring your success. But I want to know that you are making enough money to pay all of your bills, compensate yourself for labor, and still have money left over. If you aren't turning a profit in three years, you're just sticking dollar bills into the holes your boat has sprung.

As far as doing just as good or better--Post proof or retract. It sounds to me like one more idealist who doesn't want to confront the realities of the business world. College campuses are filled with them. Most of them end up mid-level office managers and less at the corporations they raged so hard against before the real world kicked in.


When I said Diamond took 60% that's what I meant. When dealing with Diamond you lose 60% of the profits of your book. It doesn't matter if Diamond gets it. The point is that when you distribute your book through Diamond you can take 60% of the cost of your book and kiss it goodbye, because you're never going to see it.

Are you telling me that Comixpress' new plan calls for them providing distribution services for free? Are they also going to work it so that the retailers accept not getting a significant discount? Or, as has already been brought up in this thread, are you going to ignore the retail outlet entirely and concentrate wholly on online marketing?


Comixpress has exploded over the eight months they've been in business and has proven themselves time and time again with the quality of their product.

Never once in this thread have I said anything about the quality of Comixpress product. Not once.


Now they're ready to move onto a much larger distribution aspect. Once they unveil their new services you'll see what I mean.

No proven track record. I'll wish them well, but I won't call them savior quite yet.

chamber715
05-24-2005, 09:30 AM
Considering that company has made $0 a year in revenue and goes to 50K, I'd think that would be a pretty nice splash in this industry, making a sound name for itself, and gaining a solid fanbase. People think money is everything, and unfortunately in some cases it is. But, what you're failing to recognize is that without a solid, dedicated fanbase, you're nothing in the industry. Because, these are the people that are going to help your company get up off the ground.

And that, is ten times more important then any money. Because it brings loyalty. It brings respect. It brings connections that you can't create with money.

But in the end, isn't it always about money? Sure, a loyal fanbase is great and so is respect but what's even better is being able to buy food and shelter.

A business is just that... a business. And businesses, no matter what industry, need to make money.

TripWire
05-24-2005, 09:32 AM
Considering that company has made $0 a year in revenue and goes to 50K, I'd think that would be a pretty nice splash in this industry, making a sound name for itself, and gaining a solid fanbase. People think money is everything, and unfortunately in some cases it is.

Namely the case of having a long term company. $50,000 isn't going to go far when you're having to pay bills along the way. And is $50,000 even a realistic gross number? What sort of projections does Ronin have for the next 12 months? 18? 36?


But, what you're failing to recognize is that without a solid, dedicated fanbase, you're nothing in the industry. Because, these are the people that are going to help your company get up off the ground.

And that, is ten times more important then any money. Because it brings loyalty. It brings respect. It brings connections that you can't create with money.

Craig

I'm not failing to recognize anything. You can sell anything to the same 300 people. It gets a bit incestuous after a while, but it doesn't ever get profitable or create the big fanbase you're looking for. And, I hate to sound like Mr. Potter, but the fact is, it sure as hell isn't "ten times more important than money". Try to pay your rent with loyalty or respect. See how far "connections" get you at the grocery store.

TripWire
05-24-2005, 09:38 AM
But in the end, isn't it always about money? Sure, a loyal fanbase is great and so is respect but what's even better is being able to buy food and shelter.

A business is just that... a business. And businesses, no matter what industry, need to make money.

Thank you. My point exactly.

CraigM
05-24-2005, 09:39 AM
But in the end, isn't it always about money? Sure, a loyal fanbase is great and so is respect but what's even better is being able to buy food and shelter.

A business is just that... a business. And businesses, no matter what industry, need to make money.

Do you think money comes from nowhere? Not questioning your intelligence, but money just doesn't come out of nowhere when you're an independent company like Ronin Studios is. For the last year, we saw no profit and no losses. We came out even. How many companies can honestly say that?

But, what we have done in the past 14-15 months is create a fanbase and a studio that is beyond thriving. This a studio that we're trying to make for the creators and for the readers and not for the money. We're doing this because we love what we do. If money comes down the chute because of it, even better.

We want readers more than money. We want people who care about our product more than money. We want people having fun about making comics more than money. This isn't any of our jobs. We're not about to retire and live off of it. But, Noble and I are happy as to what Ronin Studios has turned into. I've been with Ronin Studios for a year now, and about 6-8 months of that has been as an Assistant EIC. The ideas we're implementing now is going to help us out even more.

It takes time to make money. I'd rather come out even then lose money.

Craig

alexlannin
05-24-2005, 09:43 AM
Do you think money comes from nowhere? Not questioning your intelligence, but money just doesn't come out of nowhere when you're an independent company like Ronin Studios is. For the last year, we saw no profit and no losses. We came out even. How many companies can honestly say that?

But, what we have done in the past 14-15 months is create a fanbase and a studio that is beyond thriving. This a studio that we're trying to make for the creators and for the readers and not for the money. We're doing this because we love what we do. If money comes down the chute because of it, even better.

We want readers more than money. We want people who care about our product more than money. We want people having fun about making comics more than money. This isn't any of our jobs. We're not about to retire and live off of it. But, Noble and I are happy as to what Ronin Studios has turned into. I've been with Ronin Studios for a year now, and about 6-8 months of that has been as an Assistant EIC. The ideas we're implementing now is going to help us out even more.

It takes time to make money. I'd rather come out even then lose money.

Craig

I don't think that's Trip's point. His point is if noble coming on here shouting "F Diamond", then how is he going to be successful and last? I get what you're saying, that it's about art and treading, but in Trip's mind, that's not really saying "F Diamond". At least that's what I think.

CraigM
05-24-2005, 09:55 AM
I don't think that's Trip's point. His point is if noble coming on here shouting "F Diamond", then how is he going to be successful and last? I get what you're saying, that it's about art and treading, but in Trip's mind, that's not really saying "F Diamond". At least that's what I think.

I think that Noble is upset by the fact that so many are quick to bash P.O.D's based on assumptions and stereotypes. Many have called books printed by ComiXpress as crap and shitty and of no quality. Many have called books printed by ComiXpress as not worthy of being in Diamond and being done by people who will have no place in the industry except for creating books for a hobby.

If I were him, and I'm not, but I'm a good friend of his, I'd be upset. And I am upset. That pisses me off to no end to see that people are judging my book before they've read it. Am I saying it's the best thing out there? No. I've come out and said that the first few issues of Tyr pale in comparison to what I've written just last night. But, have these people gone and bought Tyr or read it? Seriously doubt it.

The fact is, that Diamond is nothing to the retailers or publishers without fans. Without people who will buy the product. That's what Ronin Studios is trying to accomplish. Gaining a loyal fanbase that will support Ronin Studios, and that will tell others about the product we're offering. Let's say we have 500 people who are dedicated to Ronin. Who love what we publish. Each one of those people tell one other person who becomes addicted. That's a 1,000. We've just doubled our sales and our fanbase. Those new 500 people tell two other people and now we've got 2,000 people loyal to our fanbase. See what I mean?

In a way, yeah, it's Fuck Diamond. Because we're going Hell Yeah Fans!

Craig

alexlannin
05-24-2005, 09:57 AM
I think that Noble is upset by the fact that so many are quick to bash P.O.D's based on assumptions and stereotypes. Many have called books printed by ComiXpress as crap and shitty and of no quality. Many have called books printed by ComiXpress as not worthy of being in Diamond and being done by people who will have no place in the industry except for creating books for a hobby.

If I were him, and I'm not, but I'm a good friend of his, I'd be upset. And I am upset. That pisses me off to no end to see that people are judging my book before they've read it. Am I saying it's the best thing out there? No. I've come out and said that the first few issues of Tyr pale in comparison to what I've written just last night. But, have these people gone and bought Tyr or read it? Seriously doubt it.

The fact is, that Diamond is nothing to the retailers or publishers without fans. Without people who will buy the product. That's what Ronin Studios is trying to accomplish. Gaining a loyal fanbase that will support Ronin Studios, and that will tell others about the product we're offering. Let's say we have 500 people who are dedicated to Ronin. Who love what we publish. Each one of those people tell one other person who becomes addicted. That's a 1,000. We've just doubled our sales and our fanbase. Those new 500 people tell two other people and now we've got 2,000 people loyal to our fanbase. See what I mean?

In a way, yeah, it's Fuck Diamond. Because we're going Hell Yeah Fans!

Craig

Good for you guys, I haven't heard people dismiss POD books, but this place is really the only place I hear about them period.

TripWire
05-24-2005, 09:58 AM
Do you think money comes from nowhere? Not questioning your intelligence, but money just doesn't come out of nowhere when you're an independent company like Ronin Studios is.

I don't know where to begin with this.

I guess the first thing I'd say is that I'm the one who is trying to point out the financial limitations of the plan Noble was putting forward. I'm well aware of the money issues.


But, what we have done in the past 14-15 months is create a fanbase and a studio that is beyond thriving.

Please show me what "thriving" means as you're using it.


This a studio that we're trying to make for the creators and for the readers and not for the money.

That's, pardon the pun, noble. I wish you the best of luck.


We want readers more than money. We want people who care about our product more than money. We want people having fun about making comics more than money.

I don't see how the two are mutually exclusive. Your readers should be makign you money. If they aren't, I don't like your long term prospects for business. And if you're going to piss on Diamond's efforts to get you readers, I fear you're making it even harder on yourself.


This isn't any of our jobs. We're not about to retire and live off of it.

Craig

Well, that isn't how Noble was positioning it on this thread. And if you're really going to make the splash you want to, it will be your job. Rarely do hobbies make a splash.

mike black
05-24-2005, 10:03 AM
All I'm going to say is that going outside of the Diamond route got Future Comics nothing but alot of heartache and a bankrupcy decleration. And don't say "They sucked!" Because people will buy things like that if it's offered to them.

TripWire
05-24-2005, 10:06 AM
Let's say we have 500 people who are dedicated to Ronin. Who love what we publish. Each one of those people tell one other person who becomes addicted. That's a 1,000. We've just doubled our sales and our fanbase. Those new 500 people tell two other people and now we've got 2,000 people loyal to our fanbase. See what I mean?

In a way, yeah, it's Fuck Diamond. Because we're going Hell Yeah Fans!

Craig

That's such horribly myopic math I can't even argue with it. So, if you tell one person by the end of today, by the end of the month you'll have all of North America covered. By Christmas you're going to have fans in other universes. If you're doing projections based on, "well, one person tells another who tells another" the bank is going to laugh in your face if you ever need money.

How does "FUCK DIAMOND" have anything to do with fans? How is Diamond affecting fans negatively?

CraigM
05-24-2005, 10:12 AM
I don't know where to begin with this.

I guess the first thing I'd say is that I'm the one who is trying to point out the financial limitations of the plan Noble was putting forward. I'm well aware of the money issues.

Please show me what "thriving" means as you're using it.

That's, pardon the pun, noble. I wish you the best of luck.

I don't see how the two are mutually exclusive. Your readers should be makign you money. If they aren't, I don't like your long term prospects for business. And if you're going to piss on Diamond's efforts to get you readers, I fear you're making it even harder on yourself.

Well, that isn't how Noble was positioning it on this thread. And if you're really going to make the splash you want to, it will be your job. Rarely do hobbies make a splash.

What financial limitations? The fact is that Ronin Studios is not a company in the sense that we have an office or we have hired employees. At the same time we also don't make money off of any of the books. So, we have no overhead and we have no income, which has worked for Ronin Studios so far. Right now, we're taking it slow. We've seen what happens to other studios and publishing companies who try to start to fast. So instead of rushing out of the gates, we have built up fans, trust, respect, and loyalty. Things that are more valuable then money. Money will only keeping you for so long. You will piss through $100000 so quick if you don't have the fans, trust, and everything else to go along with that at first. So instead of throwing money and then trying to gain fans, we decided to gain fans and then throw some money.

And how is Ronin Studios thriving? We have 300 creators currently working on projects, helping improve the Ronin Studios name, and showing their enthusiasm to what we're doing. Is that not thriving? Is that not something exciteable?

And yes, the readers should be making us money as you so elequently put it. But, to me it's more important then that. I want to give the readers something to enjoy, not just say fork over three dollars. I want this to be an enjoyable experience for everyone. Money comes later.

And eventually, it will be my job. At least you hope so. But, it takes time to get to that spot. I've seen people who throw themselves head first into a project and have to back up quite a few times. I'm not going to throw myself head first into a project. You build it up so it's stable so that when you throw yourself into it, it doesn't crumble but it breaks your neck.

Craig

CraigM
05-24-2005, 10:16 AM
That's such horribly myopic math I can't even argue with it. So, if you tell one person by the end of today, by the end of the month you'll have all of North America covered. By Christmas you're going to have fans in other universes. If you're doing projections based on, "well, one person tells another who tells another" the bank is going to laugh in your face if you ever need money.

How does "FUCK DIAMOND" have anything to do with fans? How is Diamond affecting fans negatively?

Wow... this is like talking to someone that is trying to base everything on pure facts on what is in front of him. You're a numbers guy? You're completely scientific, right? You have to be proven with hard facts, irreputable evidence, and numbers that you can play with. So, the fact that us building a fanbase isn't entering your thoughts really throws me off. People talk TripWire, they tell people about these books. There is no way to scientifically prove how many people you will have in your fanbase. What I said was an example of how people are going to talk and get the word out on our books.

Craig

alexlannin
05-24-2005, 10:18 AM
This is just going in circles, really.

CraigM
05-24-2005, 10:21 AM
This is just going in circles, really.

It really is.

Craig

Jade
05-24-2005, 10:29 AM
Such much said in so little time... Just wanted to address a couple things I read along the way... okay, first, I will preface by saying that my experience in this industry is not how it is for most people. Matt Camp and I solicited Shadows to Image. Shadows was the first project we ever solicited. Image was the first place we chose to send it to. Two weeks after we sent, they tell us they want to publish it... So, when I decided to start Cellar Door, I had a loyal fanbase, because of going through the traditional route of getting published through a publishing company. What did this get me? Those massive connections everyone is talking about... I have plenty. So, that covers how connections can be easily made by going the traditional route to start.

People want to see that you have proven yourself, paid your dues. I wouldn't have had nearly the amount of recognition that I have for Cellar Door if not getting published traditionally. When one of my inkers went for a Marvel portfolio review recently, he was asked what projects he was working on. He mentioned a few and then said, "and I'm inking a book for a company called Cellar Door." The person looking at his portfolio stopped and said, "yeah, I know Cellar Door. That's Jade Dodge's company. They've got some really great projects coming out this year."

That's what proving myself in the professional realm got me.

It was also mentioned that Diamond is only interested in super heros and tits and ass... Shadows is neither. The covers are actually very calm. And Shocking Gun Tales, Cellar Door's first book which is in the June Previews, is neither of those things. Yet, the people at Diamond decided to make it a spotlighted item. I never even mentioned the possibility to my sales rep. They gave this to a new company with a book that is actually pretty different than a lot that's being put out.

Diamond is not the enemy. And honestly, when I was just a writer, I thought many of the same things I'm hearing here. But when I decided to become a publisher, I did my research (which I do to this day) and I joined trade organizations and learned from those who had gone from nothing to being publishers that bring in millions of dollars a year.

Diamond is not the enemy... they are a distribution model that should be used IN ADDITION to one or more other models. That's good business.

TripWire
05-24-2005, 10:49 AM
How does "FUCK DIAMOND" have anything to do with fans? How is Diamond affecting fans negatively?

chamber715
05-24-2005, 10:52 AM
Diamond is not the enemy... they are a distribution model that should be used IN ADDITION to one or more other models. That's good business.

I don't think Diamond is the enemy, but I can see why a lot of other people do. Mostly they've either been: a) rejected by Diamond or b) accepted by Diamond and wondering where 60% of their cover price went.

Jade
05-24-2005, 10:57 AM
I don't think Diamond is the enemy, but I can see why a lot of other people do. Mostly they've either been: a) rejected by Diamond or b) accepted by Diamond and wondering where 60% of their cover price went.

Which is a REALLY good point... Back when I was just a writer, I wondered where the 60% went, too. I thought it was a rip off. But when I actually looked into it from a different POV, it made a lot more sense. It actually made perfect sense.

noble
05-24-2005, 11:10 AM
To clarify I've never said "FUCK Diamond" in any of my posts.

Not once. I just said that Diamond is an old distribution system that is going to one day be replaced.

Jade
05-24-2005, 11:28 AM
To clarify I've never said "FUCK Diamond" in any of my posts.

Not once. I just said that Diamond is an old distribution system that is going to one day be replaced.

The only way that will happen is if the book industry as a whole decides it doesn't want to use a system that has been serving them well. A sustem that takes a great deal of the burden off of them, so they can spend their time elsewhere.

Other methods willcome along, but the traditional distribution model is not going away anytime soon. Not in our lifetimes, anyway.

noble
05-24-2005, 11:31 AM
You'd be surprised how long a life time is ;)

To use an example from earlier, look at the music industry and how it's changed in just the last 30 years. They went from radio to record stores, to record chains, and now we're seeing the birth of downloadable music on demand right in the comfort of your own home.

With eBay, Amazon, and dozens of other ways to get your product using your computer right from the comfort of your own home, why do you think the comic industry is going to be any different?

Saul Colt
05-24-2005, 11:33 AM
WOW!

This thread has given me a headache!

If I may add my .02 here..........There have been a bunch of opinions thrown out here about both sides and some of them are bang on. I think as a publisher your goal is to get your books into as many hands as possible.

This means getting your book distributed by every and all possible companies. I use Diamond , FM and Cold Cut. I think the service of comixpress is great and valuable I just dont use them because it isnt finacially feasable for me. To ignore Diamond or FM or Cold Cut is irresponcible if you are really intent on getting books into peoples hands.

I have read on a few different message boards that Diamond wont carry books from comxpress and I really dont buy that as the only reason. I am not here to comment on the product cause unless I have seen it I cant say weather it is any good. I do see a reason for rejection as Diamond may not be interested in a book that has been previously availale elsewhere. Diamond is a business and they can be very frusterating but they also can make your job very easy and helpfull.

the 60% issue has been raised a few times in this thread. Basically a publisher makes a little more then a dollar on a 2.99 book. I am not sure what the take on a comixpress book makes but I assume it is around the same so that really negates the 60% argument.

I am not here to judge anyones business plan cause to be honest I worry about my own business and don't stick my nose in others but I can't really understand why you wouldn't submit books to Diamond.....even if they are POD.

I used to think Diamond was the enemy and then I took a step back and really looked at things.

anyway I probably didnt make a whole lot of sense here but I think getting angry over all this is silly.

Make comics.

Have fun.

Tell stories.

get em in peoples hands.

simple as that.

saul
www.ssscomics.com (www.ssscomics.com)

Jade
05-24-2005, 11:35 AM
You'd be surprised how long a life time is ;)

To use an example from earlier, look at the music industry and how it's changed in just the last 30 years. They went from radio to record stores, to record chains, and now we're seeing the birth of downloadable music on demand right in the comfort of your own home.

With eBay, Amazon, and dozens of other ways to get your product using your computer right from the comfort of your own home, why do you think the comic industry is going to be any different?

But the music industry is still using the old model, and making a helluva lot of money with it.

Know who's making the money from downloading music? The music corps. Otherwise, it's largely going for free.

New ways will come in, but they will not replace the old. They will only add to it. And if history says anything, it's the big bad corporations that will reap the benefits...

chamber715
05-24-2005, 11:37 AM
To use an example from earlier, look at the music industry and how it's changed in just the last 30 years. They went from radio to record stores, to record chains, and now we're seeing the birth of downloadable music on demand right in the comfort of your own home.

But there are differences between what the music industry is faced with and what the comics industry is faced with. The mp3 revolution changed the way music is bought and sold because the distribution companies had to, otherwise what they were selling was going to be taken for free. There is no such imperative in the comics industry.

noble
05-24-2005, 11:39 AM
Well by that time we'll all be the big bad corporation so it all works out in the end. Just ask George Lucas.

Saul with comixpress 32 page black and white comic priced at $2.99 - the creator makes $1.50, in some instances $1.75 per book.

So you see where I'm going with the upside of comixpress being more creator friendly than diamond.

Jade
05-24-2005, 11:41 AM
But there are differences between what the music industry is faced with and what the comics industry is faced with. The mp3 revolution changed the way music is bought and sold because the distribution companies had to, otherwise what they were selling was going to be taken for free. There is no such imperative in the comics industry.

Which brings up a great point... this industry is fighting to stay alive. The publishers, the retailers, everyone... to try to take down any area of it is counterproductive. One of my core principles is to help strengthen the industry. This means helping to keep the existing alive and to build from there... this industry is too weak to not support all aspects as much as possible.

Jade
05-24-2005, 11:43 AM
Well by that time we'll all be the big bad corporation so it all works out in the end. Just ask George Lucas.

Saul with comixpress 32 page black and white comic priced at $2.99 - the creator makes $1.50, in some instances $1.75 per book.

So you see where I'm going with the upside of comixpress being more creator friendly than diamond.

But Diamond has a sales team and a catalog that goes out to retailers across the country and into a few others.

And Lucas is the exception, not the rule.

alexlannin
05-24-2005, 11:47 AM
WOW!

This thread has given me a headache!

If I may add my .02 here..........There have been a bunch of opinions thrown out here about both sides and some of them are bang on. I think as a publisher your goal is to get your books into as many hands as possible.

This means getting your book distributed by every and all possible companies. I use Diamond , FM and Cold Cut. I think the service of comixpress is great and valuable I just dont use them because it isnt finacially feasable for me. To ignore Diamond or FM or Cold Cut is irresponcible if you are really intent on getting books into peoples hands.

I have read on a few different message boards that Diamond wont carry books from comxpress and I really dont buy that as the only reason. I am not here to comment on the product cause unless I have seen it I cant say weather it is any good. I do see a reason for rejection as Diamond may not be interested in a book that has been previously availale elsewhere. Diamond is a business and they can be very frusterating but they also can make your job very easy and helpfull.

the 60% issue has been raised a few times in this thread. Basically a publisher makes a little more then a dollar on a 2.99 book. I am not sure what the take on a comixpress book makes but I assume it is around the same so that really negates the 60% argument.

I am not here to judge anyones business plan cause to be honest I worry about my own business and don't stick my nose in others but I can't really understand why you wouldn't submit books to Diamond.....even if they are POD.

I used to think Diamond was the enemy and then I took a step back and really looked at things.

anyway I probably didnt make a whole lot of sense here but I think getting angry over all this is silly.

Make comics.

Have fun.

Tell stories.

get em in peoples hands.

simple as that.

saul
www.ssscomics.com (www.ssscomics.com)

clapclapclapclapclapclap!
Whoo!

TripWire
05-24-2005, 11:49 AM
Well by that time we'll all be the big bad corporation so it all works out in the end. Just ask George Lucas.

Saul with comixpress 32 page black and white comic priced at $2.99 - the creator makes $1.50, in some instances $1.75 per book.

So you see where I'm going with the upside of comixpress being more creator friendly than diamond.

I'm not sure, but are we talking about comixpress selling direct to the end consumer? Because that's something totally different than Diamond selling to a retailer. If you printed 5,000 copies, what's to stop you from selling directly to a consumer at full price? Why should comixpress get $1.50?

Saul Colt
05-24-2005, 11:50 AM
Well by that time we'll all be the big bad corporation so it all works out in the end. Just ask George Lucas.

Saul with comixpress 32 page black and white comic priced at $2.99 - the creator makes $1.50, in some instances $1.75 per book.

So you see where I'm going with the upside of comixpress being more creator friendly than diamond.

I agree that with Comixpress you make a few more cents per book but in the long run I feel the combo of the three distributors you will get far more sales and attention. Don't get me wrong I think comixpress is good and important but if you get listed in previews it is almost impossible to not sell 400 books and with good promotion and some dunb luck you can sell double that. These numbers will pay for your publishing fees and your books get a very crusial retail presence. After the initial sales you could then sell through comixpress for ever and ever.

I dont have all the answers but that is how I would do it if I was starting out.

To use some fancy business mumbo jumbo. Comixpress is at the invention stage of a business life cycle and Diamond is at the innovation stage. By most standards it takes anywhere from 10-30 years to reach the innovation stage. It is very smart to back an upstart and get in on the ground floor but you shouldn't ignore other opportunities.

saul

Jade
05-24-2005, 11:56 AM
I agree that with Comixpress you make a few more cents per book but in the long run I feel the combo of the three distributors you will get far more sales and attention. Don't get me wrong I think comixpress is good and important but if you get listed in previews it is almost impossible to not sell 400 books and with good promotion and some dunb luck you can sell double that. These numbers will pay for your publishing fees and your books get a very crusial retail presence. After the initial sales you could then sell through comixpress for ever and ever.

I dont have all the answers but that is how I would do it if I was starting out.

To use some fancy business mumbo jumbo. Comixpress is at the invention stage of a business life cycle and Diamond is at the innovation stage. By most standards it takes anywhere from 10-30 years to reach the innovation stage. It is very smart to back an upstart and get in on the ground floor but you shouldn't ignore other opportunities.

saul

Exactly... as I've been saying, usingmore than one distribution model (dual distribution) is a good business move. Use Comixpress, but you can still use traditional methods, as well.

All of the creators publishing through Cellar Door would have not decided to publish through my company if I excluded Diamond. And they've all worked with the major companies... Just don't exclude ANY options when it comes to getting your books out there. Use everything at your disposal. Your books deserve it.

Saul Colt
05-24-2005, 12:00 PM
Your books deserve it.

I agree.

now everyone go BUY ECLIPSE & VEGA.

you and they diserve it! ;)

saul

alexlannin
05-24-2005, 12:01 PM
Exactly... as I've been saying, usingmore than one distribution model (dual distribution) is a good business move. Use Comixpress, but you can still use traditional methods, as well.

All of the creators publishing through Cellar Door would have not decided to publish through my company if I excluded Diamond. And they've all worked with the major companies... Just don't exclude ANY options when it comes to getting your books out there. Use everything at your disposal. Your books deserve it.
You've heard it here from two publishers Noble, I think what they're saying makes sense. Though as I've said, if I can order directly from comixpress with a retailer discount, I probably will over Diamond. They screw me on independents too often (which, btw Saul, I did get E & V #2, only a week late).

Saul Colt
05-24-2005, 12:03 PM
(which, btw Saul, I did get E & V #2, only a week late).

:D :cool: :) :cool:
s.

DanLTaylor
05-24-2005, 12:16 PM
Well by that time we'll all be the big bad corporation so it all works out in the end. Just ask George Lucas.

Saul with comixpress 32 page black and white comic priced at $2.99 - the creator makes $1.50, in some instances $1.75 per book.

So you see where I'm going with the upside of comixpress being more creator friendly than diamond.
I would say that comixpress may be more creator friendly in the fact that there are less hoops to jump through than when working with Diamond. Both have their advantages. I have worked a lot with Diamond in regards to my own book. While I haven't utilized comixpress yet I was aware of it before it officially launched and was and am very excited about the posibilities.

noble
05-24-2005, 12:40 PM
I'm not sure, but are we talking about comixpress selling direct to the end consumer? Because that's something totally different than Diamond selling to a retailer. If you printed 5,000 copies, what's to stop you from selling directly to a consumer at full price? Why should comixpress get $1.50?

both right now they are more for selling directly to the consumer at home but the second phase which involves retailer distribution is about to begin.

The $1.50 (1.40, in some cases $1.25 actually) are printing costs removed from the price of the book. Instead of paying X amount of dollars for printing up front, they print as they are needed and just take the printing costs from the backend of the sale of the book.

Jade I agree with what you and Saul are saying. Which is why I never said Fuck Diamond. I'm just saying that things like comixpress will be the future of the industry. Will it be next year or ten years form now? Don't know. But I'm saying that things like this will start to gain more and more popularity with the internet age crowd, and diamond will lose its iron grip on the distribution aspects of the industry.

TripWire
05-24-2005, 12:48 PM
Jade I agree with what you and Saul are saying. Which is why I never said Fuck Diamond.

No, but your partner did. And he still hasn't answered how Diamond hurts the consumer. Maybe you can.

CraigM
05-24-2005, 01:33 PM
No, but your partner did. And he still hasn't answered how Diamond hurts the consumer. Maybe you can.

Um... no, you said it.

Craig

TripWire
05-24-2005, 02:16 PM
Um... no, you said it.

Craig

Let me refresh your memory.


In a way, yeah, it's Fuck Diamond. Because we're going Hell Yeah Fans!

Craig

I never said it. Why would I say it? I've been sticking up for Diamond while you've been pissing on them as not needed.

CraigM
05-24-2005, 02:21 PM
I never said it. Why would I say it? I've been sticking up for Diamond while you've been pissing on them as not needed.

Actually, it was Alex who said it first to which I was replying to. Neither Noble or I came on here saying Fuck Diamond. Alex put it in those words.


I don't think that's Trip's point. His point is if noble coming on here shouting "F Diamond", then how is he going to be successful and last? I get what you're saying, that it's about art and treading, but in Trip's mind, that's not really saying "F Diamond". At least that's what I think.

Bill?
05-24-2005, 03:24 PM
http://fanboyrampage.blogspot.com/2005_05_01_fanboyrampage_archive.html#111694809685 003272 (http://fanboyrampage.blogspot.com/2005_05_01_fanboyrampage_archive.html#111694809685 003272)

James Patrick
05-24-2005, 04:13 PM
EDITED TO James Patrick can be a moron sometimes.

Chris Hunter
05-24-2005, 07:29 PM
I'd post something there, some of their thoughts seeming a bit uniformed, but I'll just get in a cyber fistfight with Chris Hunter, who once called me a mediocre (or some such) writer because he didn't like a work-for-hire book I had coming out, though he didn't read it, and though he's never read any of my books.

I stay as far away from as I can afraid of what might come out of my mouth.

James, what the hell are you talking about? Why would I say you were a mediocre writer if I haven't read what you have written?

Seriously confused...

alexlannin
05-24-2005, 07:31 PM
James, what the hell are you talking about? Why would I say you were a mediocre writer if I haven't read what you have written?

Seriously confused...
Welcome to the board.
It's been a bit crazy today, bring a helmet.

Chris Hunter
05-24-2005, 07:36 PM
I see you posted (http://www.haloscan.com/comments/fanboyrampage/111694809685003272/#294398) there anyway, James.


Well, there's definately minds made up as to what comixpress is. While Noble's plans are ambitious, and you may be remarking on them, keep in mind Comixpress has been a HUGE success for the company and others. Emoboy was jut picked up Slave Labor. I not only continue to sell a lot of books at Comixpress and get a check at the end of the month, those books have helped get me work for hire jobs, and an audience with respected publishers and books coming out soon with them. I also reprinted a book I did through Diamond and which did quite well, because they offered the online service and I didn't have to lift a finger to reach some new people. No, it's not traditional, but if used properly it can be used for other things and nobody knows what it's capable of until they test it.

I'd love to know more about what you have done and what you are doing now. I don't recall ever speaking good or bad about you. I'd appreciate a clue if possible.

Chris Hunter
05-24-2005, 07:41 PM
Welcome to the board.
It's been a bit crazy today, bring a helmet.

Thanks!

Childress
05-24-2005, 08:27 PM
Well by that time we'll all be the big bad corporation so it all works out in the end. Just ask George Lucas.

Saul with comixpress 32 page black and white comic priced at $2.99 - the creator makes $1.50, in some instances $1.75 per book.

So you see where I'm going with the upside of comixpress being more creator friendly than diamond.

great, then you get to use that .50-.75 a book to make up for losing out on the marketing and tools that diamond provides...you get to use that money to try and get information about your book to the thousands of consumers and retailers that could have already found out about your book through diamond.

I don't see how that is more "creator" friendly.

but then again, maybe Diamond isn't an option for you. maybe it's already been factored out of the equation by a decision they made.

CraigM
05-24-2005, 08:29 PM
great, then you get to use that .50-.75 a book to make up for losing out on the marketing and tools that diamond provides...you get to use that money to try and get information about your book to the thousands of consumers and retailers that could have already found out about your book through diamond.

I don't see how that is more "creator" friendly.

but then again, maybe Diamond isn't an option for you. maybe it's already been factored out of the equation by a decision they made.

Like we've said, Diamond hasn't rejected us nor have we submitted to Diamond. For those thinking that Noble or I are going off on this tirade because they rejected our books or something, please realize we haven't gone the route of Diamond.

Craig

Childress
05-24-2005, 08:32 PM
Like we've said, Diamond hasn't rejected us nor have we submitted to Diamond. For those thinking that Noble or I are going off on this tirade because they rejected our books or something, please realize we haven't gone the route of Diamond.

Craig

fair enough...now how about addressing the other points?

James Patrick
05-24-2005, 09:18 PM
James, what the hell are you talking about? Why would I say you were a mediocre writer if I haven't read what you have written?

Seriously confused...

Yeah, imagine how confused I was when I read it. I'm not going to discuss it here because it involves a publisher and out of professionalism I don't want to drag them in. I'll send a PM to refresh your memory.

Chris Hunter
05-24-2005, 09:22 PM
Yeah, imagine how confused I was when I read it. I'm not going to discuss it here because it involves a publisher and out of professionalism I don't want to drag them in. I'll send a PM to refresh your memory.

Please do. Thanks.

James Patrick
05-25-2005, 03:32 AM
Well, I've dropped the ball on this one. Those comments were said by someone else, not Chris Hunter; I don't know how I got them confused. I apologize to Chris for mixing it up and have sentenced myself to the internet corner for a time out and a lesson in fact checking.

chamber715
05-25-2005, 04:25 AM
I apologize to Chris for mixing it up and have sentenced myself to the internet corner for a time out and a lesson in fact checking.

Fact checking?!? This is the internet! There's no time for "fact checking"!