Bill Jemas: A BMB Retrospective

[mike black]

So, we now have 3 years removed from Jemas' official departure, four years from the Epic relaunch and Waid-gate, five years from his rise to the top of the heap, and 7 years since he and Joe Q helped create the Ultimate line with USM.

His tenure spawned some of the best books in comics in a long time, and injected Marvel with a sense of newess that brought it more readers than comics had seen in a long time.

For those of you who might not know who he was, here's a brief synopsis from Rich Johnston's LiTG (http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/index.cgi?column=litg&article=1754) regarding the end of Jemas' tenure:


Bill Jemas came to prominence in Marvel during the bankruptcy reorganisations, originally from Marvel-owned Fleer, he launched the Ultimate line and eventually was key in replacing editor-in-chief Bob Harras with Joe Quesada. They formed a buddy team for the public, taking the roles of good cop and bad cop, often playing for the peanut gallery and courting controversy and sales as they attempted to mould Marvel in their image. Implementing no-overships, newsstand compilation magazines, the MAX line, entrenching Marvel Knights, removing the Comics Code, widening Marvel's pool of talent to extremes, embracing trade paperback programmes and much more. They changed the face of the company and helped it move from loss into profit, while simultaneously grabbing positive reviews both inside and outside of comics.

Years later, that partnership would suffer as controversy was suddenly frowned on by other Marvel execs and Joe Quesada began to disassociate himself from Jemas in the eyes of Marvel employees and freelancers, even as Bill Jemas was spearheading the Epic line which promised career jumping on point for wannabe comic creators.

Jemas' interference in plots and scripts at Marvel caused much fury internally. He was seen as arrogant, unfeeling and inconsistent and few felt his hands-on changes benefited the books.

Avi Arad was furious over certain comics spearheaded by Jemas that caused him difficulty selling the properties to Hollywood, and causing ructions with stars. As the films became more and more important, executive Isaac Perlmutter switched his loyalties to Arad and the writing was on the wall. Bill Jemas' courting of the press stopped, and his influence within the company was curtailed.

It is expected that the Epic line will publish all announced titles, with a big splurge in February, but after that projects that have been greenlit, but not announced, may well be cancelled. I hear that already Epic editors Stephanie Moore and Cory Sedlmeier are working on non-Epic projects. The Ultimate line, making up some of Marvel's best selling titles, will continue along a similar model.

Bill Jemas' future is unknown. However, after recently cashing in millions in stock, he's not expected to be in need of a job or two right now. Jemas often became the Aunt Sally for Marvel. He leaves the company in a far better financial and creative state than it was when he took over. Some will curse his name, some will praise it. But he avoided committed the ultimate sin in comics - he was never boring.

So, I pose to you guys :

Was it a good run? Or is he forever going to be remembered for Waid-gate and the Epic debacle?

[Michael Wagner]

He caused more good drama than bad.

[artimoff]

I dug him & wish he were still at Marvel.

[Joe Kalicki]

I'm glad he's gone and hope he never comes back.

[Masculine Todd]

Ultimately, Jemas and Quesada took a stagnant comic company that had become creatively conservative and gave it the edge that made the Marvel Universe so engaging and interesting during it's initial days under Stan Lee. While nobody will contest the fact that Jemas made some poor decisions during his tenure at Marvel, he drastically changed the company in a highly beneficial way. The current state of Marvel is in debt to the man.

[Kman00001]

I miss him terribly.

[Blandy vs Terrorism]

Ultimately, Jemas and Quesada took a stagnant comic company that had become creatively conservative and gave it the edge that made the Marvel Universe so engaging and interesting during it's initial days under Stan Lee. While nobody will contest the fact that Jemas made some poor decisions during his tenure at Marvel, he drastically changed the company in a highly beneficial way. The current state of Marvel is in debt to the man.
I couldn't agree more.

[Shwicaz]

There were a lot of creative chances/risks taken during that era.

Controversial books, indie writers and artists working on top Marvel characters, and the like.

I went with YAY.

[Lemonade Lady]

I didn't like most of what was going on back then, but at least crossovers were much rarer.

[noble]

There were a lot of creative chances/risks taken during that era.

Controversial books, indie writers and artists working on top Marvel characters, and the like.

I went with YAY.


I agree.

Once he was gone, Marvel started playing it safe again.

Max was pretty much killed, all the chances they were taking that made me wonder what the hell are they going to do next, has been replaced by company wide mega crossovers. Which the current regime had stated on many occassions that they despised back in the day.

Sigh.

[Shwicaz]

I agree.

Once he was gone, Marvel started playing it safe again.

Max was pretty much killed, all the chances they were taking that made me wonder what the hell are they going to do next, has been replaced by company wide mega crossovers. Which the current regime had stated on many occassions that they despised back in the day.

Sigh.

that is true, but you can't argue what it has done for the company.

look at the sales numbers.

A company can despise something, but as long as the buying public seems to be loving it (for now), I can see why they continue doing them.

[noble]

that is true, but you can't argue what it has done for the company.

look at the sales numbers.

A company can despise something, but as long as the buying public seems to be loving it (for now), I can see why they continue doing them.


I agree, it'd be stupid for them to turn their backs on something that is generating so much profit for them.

I just get leary as this is all starting to seem like the hey days of the 90's again, where every side character was getting a book or mini, there was a new crazy ten thousand book crossover every six months, and then suddenly the bottom fell out.

I just keep waiting for the other shoe to drop :scared:

[NickT]

I got into comics during his time, so I'm yay.





Max was pretty much killed
Did you know that back in May 2003 there was only one MAX title? In December they have four.

[Garth]

I remember the time that he and Quesada were running things fondly. I liked the excitement that was injected in the company and the chances that they took. It really reminded me of what it must have been like seeing Stan Lee come into comics and break all the rules. I know I will probably get flack for that comparison, but whatever.

When he left, I wasn't heartbroken, because he did come off as arrogant and many things were ruined because of his involvement.

Yet, now that it has been such a while, I kind of wish he was still around, just to see how things would be different. As great as I think Quesada is, Jemas was a good foil for him.

[I AM GROOT!]

I voted "yay." That period for Marvel was exciting and fresh, and I always eagerly looked forward to the books that came out like no other time before or since. I liked the focus that was put onto a non-traditional superhero (i.e. no costumes), such as Daredevil, the Hulk, and the X-Men. That was also the era where indy creators or individuals from other media genres really came in, and the controversy in such books as Trouble, Rawhide Kid, and the U-Decide debacle made things interesting.

Since Jemas' departure, Marvel has returned to a more traditional feel. I'm still excited to read the books, but it doesn't have that unpredictable feel of anticipation that the Jemas era had.

[NickT]

I think that in a way current Marvel is better, part because of Jemas' era. We still have the type of book Jemas would put out, but now we have more books that are a bit old school, which is what others wanted.

Post-Jemas we've had Nextwave, Indie anthology, Iron Fist, Spidey Reign, FF Requim, Omega the Unknown, Brubaker's Captain America, Son of M/Silent War, Terror Inc, Wisdom, Spidey loves Mary Jane, cosmic titles make something of a comeback, Marvel Zombies, The Icon imprint......are these all "safe"? Would these have all come out under Jemas?

[Sy-Klone]

I'm lukewarm on the Jemas era. I think it was incredibly hit-and-miss. Some great things happened while Jemas was at Marvel (Ultimate books, Morrison on New X-Men, etc). At the same time, there were misfires. Huge creative misfires (the Waid thing, Epic, the ill-fated "Tsunami" brand, and others). Personally, I was never a fan of the man.

But if I were forced to answer, I'd say that overall, it was a good run. Not a great run. A good run. And Marvel under Jemas was unquestionably stronger than Marvel in the 90s. I don't question that a good portion of that success is attributable to Jemas, but I don't put all (or even most) of the credit in Jemas's hands.

Personally, I think Marvel today is better than Marvel five years ago.

[NickT]

Also worth pointing out that there was a summer where Morrison, Johns, Rucka, Loeb and Sale all left Marvel for DC. How many of them were because of Jemas?

[Joe Kalicki]

I liked Marvel way more back in 97/98 than I did at any point when Jemas was in charge.

Waid on Cap and Ka-Zar, Busiek on Avengers, Iron Man, and starting up Thunderbolts, PAD still on Hulk, Kesel on Daredevil. . .

None of these were bad comics and they were all a damn sight better than having everyone take off their costumes and disregarding all continuity to the point where the editor of X-Men Unlimited was actually bragging about not knowing anything about the X-Men as if it was a plus.

[Ryudo]

I liked his run and his flamboyancy. Didn't necessarily think too highly of him because of his heavy-handedness in the creative process. Overall, though, he and Quesada brought Marvel out of bankruptcy and made them a true leader in the industry again. I voted yay.

[mike black]

Also worth pointing out that there was a summer where Morrison, Johns, Rucka, Loeb and Sale all left Marvel for DC. How many of them were because of Jemas?

Atleast Morrison. Apparently, he was slated to write one of the early Ultimate books, but left before he could. We all know about Marvel Boy II.

Nu-Marvel had mad balls - it made me want to read comics again. I wish they still had that. (Not to shit on what's going on now, it just feels like business as usual again...)

[Bradford]

Should superhero comic fans look back on Bill Jemas' stint as the head of Marvel comics with nostalgia and wistfulness, or relief?

I'm firmly in the first camp. While Marvel had both hits and misses during his tenure, the hits were some of the most interesting, risky, bizarre and enjoyable superhero/mainstream comics I've ever had the pleasure of reading.

We can't forget the misses, of course: failed lines (http://www.scifidimensions.com/Feb03/tsunami.htm), failed books (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FUltimate-Adventures-One-Tin-Soldier%2Fdp%2F0785110437%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks% 26qid%3D1191088841%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325), failed concepts (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FRawhide-Kid-Leather-Marvel-Heroes%2Fdp%2F0785110690%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191088797%26sr%3D8-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325), failed partnerships (http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=36&t=001498).

But c'mon guys, this is the era that brought you:

The greatest reboot of all time (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FX-Force-New-Beginning-TPB%2Fdp%2F078510819X%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qi d%3D1191088956%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325):
http://www.aaapop.com/images/covers/Marvel/xforce116.jpg
X-Force by Mike Allred and Peter Milligan (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FX-Force-New-Beginning-TPB%2Fdp%2F078510819X%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qi d%3D1191088956%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

Some of the funniest scenes ever (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FPunisher-Vol-Welcome-Back-Frank%2Fdp%2F078510982X%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26 qid%3D1191089030%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
http://overcaffeinated.net/img/punisher2.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FPunisher-Vol-Welcome-Back-Frank%2Fdp%2F078510982X%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26 qid%3D1191089030%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
From The Punisher: Welcome Back Frank (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FPunisher-Vol-Welcome-Back-Frank%2Fdp%2F078510982X%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26 qid%3D1191089030%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) - By Garth Ennis and Steve Dillon

The start of one of the greatest runs of all time (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fs%3Finitial Search%3D1%26url%3Dsearch-alias%253Dstripbooks%26field-keywords%3Dultimate%2Bspiderman%26x%3D0%26y%3D0&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/ultimate-spider-man/1-2.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fs%3Finitial Search%3D1%26url%3Dsearch-alias%253Dstripbooks%26field-keywords%3Dultimate%2Bspiderman%26x%3D0%26y%3D0&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
Ultimate Spiderman (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fs%3Finitial Search%3D1%26url%3Dsearch-alias%253Dstripbooks%26field-keywords%3Dultimate%2Bspiderman%26x%3D0%26y%3D0&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325), by Brian Bendis and Mark Bagley


The best fantastic four story ever (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FFantastic-Four-Unstable-Molecules-TPB%2Fdp%2F0785111123%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qi d%3D1191089178%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/511YSNYBTDL._AA240_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FFantastic-Four-Unstable-Molecules-TPB%2Fdp%2F0785111123%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qi d%3D1191089178%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
Unstable Molecules (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FFantastic-Four-Unstable-Molecules-TPB%2Fdp%2F0785111123%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qi d%3D1191089178%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) by James Sturm

The return of one of the great Marvel Characters and one of the great creators (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FHoward-Duck-Steve-Gerber%2Fdp%2F0785109315%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089260%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325):
http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/features/images/gerber/htdslides.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FHoward-Duck-Steve-Gerber%2Fdp%2F0785109315%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089260%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
Howard the Duck (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FHoward-Duck-Steve-Gerber%2Fdp%2F0785109315%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089260%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) by Steve Gerber and Phil Winslade

and one of the most artful, thoughtful, hilarious comics (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FBlack-Panther-Client-Christopher-Priest%2Fdp%2F0785107894%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089342%26sr%3D1-20&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) ever
http://www.comictreadmill.com/CTMBlogarchives/images/EverettRoss.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FBlack-Panther-Client-Christopher-Priest%2Fdp%2F0785107894%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089342%26sr%3D1-20&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
The Black Panther (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FBlack-Panther-Client-Christopher-Priest%2Fdp%2F0785107894%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089342%26sr%3D1-20&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) by Christopher Priest

Not to mention my favorite run of all time (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FNew-X-Men-Vol-E-Extinction%2Fdp%2F0785108114%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dboo ks%26qid%3D1191089419%26sr%3D1-3&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
http://www.astonishingtales.com/images/reviews/newxmen136.jpg
(http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FNew-X-Men-Vol-E-Extinction%2Fdp%2F0785108114%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dboo ks%26qid%3D1191089419%26sr%3D1-3&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

http://image.comicvine.com/uploads/item/2000/1457/167906-emma-frost_400.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FNew-X-Men-Vol-E-Extinction%2Fdp%2F0785108114%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dboo ks%26qid%3D1191089419%26sr%3D1-3&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

and

http://www.astonishingtales.com/images/reviews/newxmen137.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FNew-X-Men-Vol-E-Extinction%2Fdp%2F0785108114%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dboo ks%26qid%3D1191089419%26sr%3D1-3&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

New X-Men (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FNew-X-Men-Vol-E-Extinction%2Fdp%2F0785108114%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dboo ks%26qid%3D1191089419%26sr%3D1-3&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) by Grant Morrison, Frank Quitely and a handful of other greats

A scene people still talk about (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FAlias-Vol-Brian-Michael-Bendis%2Fdp%2F0785111417%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089572%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) years and years later
http://comics.imakinarium.net/kjon/censura/mgaliasex0.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FAlias-Vol-Brian-Michael-Bendis%2Fdp%2F0785111417%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089572%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
Alias (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FAlias-Vol-Brian-Michael-Bendis%2Fdp%2F0785111417%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089572%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)by Brian Bendis and Michael Gaydos

The greatest marvel action comic ever (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FUltimates-Vol-1-Mark-Millar%2Fdp%2F0785110828%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089650%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
http://www.michaelduff.net/ultimates9.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FUltimates-Vol-1-Mark-Millar%2Fdp%2F0785110828%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089650%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
The Ultimates (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FUltimates-Vol-1-Mark-Millar%2Fdp%2F0785110828%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089650%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) by Mark Millar and Brian Hitch

And maybe the best string of Marvel covers ever (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FIncredible-Hulk-Vol-Transfer-Power%2Fdp%2F0785110658%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26 qid%3D1191089719%26sr%3D1-12&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325):

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/7053/200/7053_2_0038.jpghttp://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/7053/200/7053_2_0039.jpghttp://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/7053/200/7053_2_0041.jpg
http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/7053/200/7053_2_0044.jpghttp://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/7053/200/7053_2_0046.jpghttp://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/7053/200/7053_2_0049.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FIncredible-Hulk-Vol-Transfer-Power%2Fdp%2F0785110658%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26 qid%3D1191089719%26sr%3D1-12&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

The Incredible Hulk (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FIncredible-Hulk-Vol-Transfer-Power%2Fdp%2F0785110658%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26 qid%3D1191089719%26sr%3D1-12&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) Vol. 2 by Bruce Jones, covers by KAARE ANDREWS



I could go on and on and on.

Back when this stuff was being published, I read Lying in the Gutters like an addict; I couldn't wait for Wednesday to come; I was reading the fan pages, forums, Millar Hour chats, whatever...

Why? Because people were trying new stuff. Creativity was winning out over commercial considerations, and that's always fun to watch, and something I'll always support.

To the guy who misses 1997....more power to ya...but that's when I dropped comics like a stone. The art was ugly. The stories were cynical efforts to part me from my money. And it just wasn't very interesting.

And that's how Marvel's been since Jemas left. I avoided this Civil War stupidity like the plague, haven't bought a new comic in months and months. The other day I took a peek at the Civil War trade at a book store....

you know what? It wasn't that good? The only enjoyment I could see someone getting from it, was wanting to see what would happen next to their favorite intellectual property. It was a collection of small ideas published in the hopes of exploiting a docile, addicted audience. No thanks. Show me something new and different. And that's what Jemas did.

Granted, he could afford to, since business was in the crapper. But that was easily the most interesting period in Marvel publishing that I've ever seen in 15 years of reading.

So yeah, I wish he'd come back. Or at least, I wish they'd stop publishing fan service.

I could keep going about how awesome this period was (Daredevil anyone?). I had to leave out a lot of stuff, but what other amazing things were published under Jemas?

[Joe Kalicki]

Priest's Black Panther was around well before Jemas. In fact, Jemas was mostly responsible for its decline in later years.

[S. Earl]

I don't think I would have returned to Capes and Tights books if it wasn't for some of the books that came out under his rule. Like Daredevil, X-men, Cable, Early JMS Spider Man, Supreme Power, and countless others I am forgetting.

[Bradford]

I never said he was responsible for it. Just that it was published during his tenure (it was of course, originally hatched under Marvel Knights!)

[Joe Kalicki]

I never said he was responsible for it. Just that it was published during his tenure (it was of course, originally hatched under Marvel Knights!)

Well, it was published under Bob Harras' tenure too, so I don't really see the point of adding it.

[Flonk]

Ultimately, Jemas and Quesada took a stagnant comic company that had become creatively conservative and gave it the edge that made the Marvel Universe so engaging and interesting during it's initial days under Stan Lee. While nobody will contest the fact that Jemas made some poor decisions during his tenure at Marvel, he drastically changed the company in a highly beneficial way. The current state of Marvel is in debt to the man.

What he said.

[Flonk]

I'm lukewarm on the Jemas era. I think it was incredibly hit-and-miss. Some great things happened while Jemas was at Marvel (Ultimate books, Morrison on New X-Men, etc). At the same time, there were misfires. Huge creative misfires (the Waid thing, Epic, the ill-fated "Tsunami" brand, and others). Personally, I was never a fan of the man.

But if I were forced to answer, I'd say that overall, it was a good run. Not a great run. A good run. And Marvel under Jemas was unquestionably stronger than Marvel in the 90s. I don't question that a good portion of that success is attributable to Jemas, but I don't put all (or even most) of the credit in Jemas's hands.

Personally, I think Marvel today is better than Marvel five years ago.

Those were some quality books. Runaways is still going strong. Sentinal had a sequel. BKV and McKeever on Mystique was a great book. McKeever's Inhumans was pretty good too. The sales might not have been there, but that was a very strong set of books.

[NickT]

Those were some quality books. Runaways is still going strong. Sentinal had a sequel. BKV and McKeever on Mystique was a great book. McKeever's Inhumans was pretty good too. The sales might not have been there, but that was a very strong set of books.
Might have done better if they weren't in such a wave though. We'll never know.

[Flonk]

Priest's Black Panther was around well before Jemas. In fact, Jemas was mostly responsible for its decline in later years.

Are you sure about that? It started as a Marvel Knights book, which was under Jemas.


And while it wasn't T'Challa Street Panther/The Crew was another great book that had no sales. And at it's lowest, Priest's Panther was miles above Hudlin's. (Is that one still even being published?)

[Flonk]

Well, it was published under Bob Harras' tenure too, so I don't really see the point of adding it.

So was Ultimate Spider-Man.

[Matt O'Keefe]

He was in charge during one of my favorite eras, and I think the level of quality has taken a bit of a dip since he left.

[Jacob Lyon Goddard]

he made huge and public strides in convincing the public that Superheroes where still the only thing worth noticing in comics, and that they could reach an audience of all ages

which many people here might consider a good thing

[Sy-Klone]

Those were some quality books. Runaways is still going strong. Sentinal had a sequel. BKV and McKeever on Mystique was a great book. McKeever's Inhumans was pretty good too. The sales might not have been there, but that was a very strong set of books.

The books you list were all beloved by a very small group of folks, and I certainly dig 'em all in varying degrees. But unfortunately, only Runaways survived. Hence the "ill-fated" in my remark. ;)

And I could also counter by listing the Tsunami books that weren't as strong as the ones you cite, like Namor and Human Torch and Venom, and I believe Emma Frost was also a Tsunami book, too.

[mike black]

Should superhero comic fans look back on Bill Jemas' stint as the head of Marvel comics with nostalgia and wistfulness, or relief?

I'm firmly in the first camp. While Marvel had both hits and misses during his tenure, the hits were some of the most interesting, risky, bizarre and enjoyable superhero/mainstream comics I've ever had the pleasure of reading.

We can't forget the misses, of course: failed lines (http://www.scifidimensions.com/Feb03/tsunami.htm), failed books (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FUltimate-Adventures-One-Tin-Soldier%2Fdp%2F0785110437%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks% 26qid%3D1191088841%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325), failed concepts (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FRawhide-Kid-Leather-Marvel-Heroes%2Fdp%2F0785110690%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191088797%26sr%3D8-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325), failed partnerships (http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=36&t=001498).

But c'mon guys, this is the era that brought you:

The greatest reboot of all time (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FX-Force-New-Beginning-TPB%2Fdp%2F078510819X%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qi d%3D1191088956%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325):
http://www.aaapop.com/images/covers/Marvel/xforce116.jpg
X-Force by Mike Allred and Peter Milligan (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FX-Force-New-Beginning-TPB%2Fdp%2F078510819X%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qi d%3D1191088956%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

Some of the funniest scenes ever (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FPunisher-Vol-Welcome-Back-Frank%2Fdp%2F078510982X%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26 qid%3D1191089030%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
http://overcaffeinated.net/img/punisher2.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FPunisher-Vol-Welcome-Back-Frank%2Fdp%2F078510982X%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26 qid%3D1191089030%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
From The Punisher: Welcome Back Frank (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FPunisher-Vol-Welcome-Back-Frank%2Fdp%2F078510982X%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26 qid%3D1191089030%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) - By Garth Ennis and Steve Dillon

The start of one of the greatest runs of all time (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fs%3Finitial Search%3D1%26url%3Dsearch-alias%253Dstripbooks%26field-keywords%3Dultimate%2Bspiderman%26x%3D0%26y%3D0&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/ultimate-spider-man/1-2.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fs%3Finitial Search%3D1%26url%3Dsearch-alias%253Dstripbooks%26field-keywords%3Dultimate%2Bspiderman%26x%3D0%26y%3D0&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
Ultimate Spiderman (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fs%3Finitial Search%3D1%26url%3Dsearch-alias%253Dstripbooks%26field-keywords%3Dultimate%2Bspiderman%26x%3D0%26y%3D0&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325), by Brian Bendis and Mark Bagley


The best fantastic four story ever (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FFantastic-Four-Unstable-Molecules-TPB%2Fdp%2F0785111123%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qi d%3D1191089178%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/511YSNYBTDL._AA240_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FFantastic-Four-Unstable-Molecules-TPB%2Fdp%2F0785111123%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qi d%3D1191089178%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
Unstable Molecules (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FFantastic-Four-Unstable-Molecules-TPB%2Fdp%2F0785111123%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qi d%3D1191089178%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) by James Sturm

The return of one of the great Marvel Characters and one of the great creators (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FHoward-Duck-Steve-Gerber%2Fdp%2F0785109315%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089260%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325):
http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/features/images/gerber/htdslides.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FHoward-Duck-Steve-Gerber%2Fdp%2F0785109315%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089260%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
Howard the Duck (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FHoward-Duck-Steve-Gerber%2Fdp%2F0785109315%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089260%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) by Steve Gerber and Phil Winslade

and one of the most artful, thoughtful, hilarious comics (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FBlack-Panther-Client-Christopher-Priest%2Fdp%2F0785107894%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089342%26sr%3D1-20&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) ever
http://www.comictreadmill.com/CTMBlogarchives/images/EverettRoss.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FBlack-Panther-Client-Christopher-Priest%2Fdp%2F0785107894%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089342%26sr%3D1-20&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
The Black Panther (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FBlack-Panther-Client-Christopher-Priest%2Fdp%2F0785107894%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089342%26sr%3D1-20&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) by Christopher Priest

Not to mention my favorite run of all time (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FNew-X-Men-Vol-E-Extinction%2Fdp%2F0785108114%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dboo ks%26qid%3D1191089419%26sr%3D1-3&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
http://www.astonishingtales.com/images/reviews/newxmen136.jpg
(http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FNew-X-Men-Vol-E-Extinction%2Fdp%2F0785108114%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dboo ks%26qid%3D1191089419%26sr%3D1-3&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

http://image.comicvine.com/uploads/item/2000/1457/167906-emma-frost_400.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FNew-X-Men-Vol-E-Extinction%2Fdp%2F0785108114%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dboo ks%26qid%3D1191089419%26sr%3D1-3&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

and

http://www.astonishingtales.com/images/reviews/newxmen137.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FNew-X-Men-Vol-E-Extinction%2Fdp%2F0785108114%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dboo ks%26qid%3D1191089419%26sr%3D1-3&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

New X-Men (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FNew-X-Men-Vol-E-Extinction%2Fdp%2F0785108114%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dboo ks%26qid%3D1191089419%26sr%3D1-3&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) by Grant Morrison, Frank Quitely and a handful of other greats

A scene people still talk about (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FAlias-Vol-Brian-Michael-Bendis%2Fdp%2F0785111417%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089572%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) years and years later
http://comics.imakinarium.net/kjon/censura/mgaliasex0.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FAlias-Vol-Brian-Michael-Bendis%2Fdp%2F0785111417%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089572%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
Alias (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FAlias-Vol-Brian-Michael-Bendis%2Fdp%2F0785111417%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089572%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)by Brian Bendis and Michael Gaydos

The greatest marvel action comic ever (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FUltimates-Vol-1-Mark-Millar%2Fdp%2F0785110828%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089650%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
http://www.michaelduff.net/ultimates9.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FUltimates-Vol-1-Mark-Millar%2Fdp%2F0785110828%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089650%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
The Ultimates (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FUltimates-Vol-1-Mark-Millar%2Fdp%2F0785110828%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089650%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) by Mark Millar and Brian Hitch

And maybe the best string of Marvel covers ever (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FIncredible-Hulk-Vol-Transfer-Power%2Fdp%2F0785110658%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26 qid%3D1191089719%26sr%3D1-12&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325):

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/7053/200/7053_2_0038.jpghttp://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/7053/200/7053_2_0039.jpghttp://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/7053/200/7053_2_0041.jpg
http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/7053/200/7053_2_0044.jpghttp://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/7053/200/7053_2_0046.jpghttp://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/7053/200/7053_2_0049.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FIncredible-Hulk-Vol-Transfer-Power%2Fdp%2F0785110658%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26 qid%3D1191089719%26sr%3D1-12&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

The Incredible Hulk (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FIncredible-Hulk-Vol-Transfer-Power%2Fdp%2F0785110658%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26 qid%3D1191089719%26sr%3D1-12&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) Vol. 2 by Bruce Jones, covers by KAARE ANDREWS



I could go on and on and on.

Back when this stuff was being published, I read Lying in the Gutters like an addict; I couldn't wait for Wednesday to come; I was reading the fan pages, forums, Millar Hour chats, whatever...

Why? Because people were trying new stuff. Creativity was winning out over commercial considerations, and that's always fun to watch, and something I'll always support.

To the guy who misses 1997....more power to ya...but that's when I dropped comics like a stone. The art was ugly. The stories were cynical efforts to part me from my money. And it just wasn't very interesting.

And that's how Marvel's been since Jemas left. I avoided this Civil War stupidity like the plague, haven't bought a new comic in months and months. The other day I took a peek at the Civil War trade at a book store....

you know what? It wasn't that good? The only enjoyment I could see someone getting from it, was wanting to see what would happen next to their favorite intellectual property. It was a collection of small ideas published in the hopes of exploiting a docile, addicted audience. No thanks. Show me something new and different. And that's what Jemas did.

Granted, he could afford to, since business was in the crapper. But that was easily the most interesting period in Marvel publishing that I've ever seen in 15 years of reading.

So yeah, I wish he'd come back. Or at least, I wish they'd stop publishing fan service.

I could keep going about how awesome this period was (Daredevil anyone?). I had to leave out a lot of stuff, but what other amazing things were published under Jemas?

QFT.

[mike black]

he made huge and public strides in convincing the public that Superheroes where still the only thing worth noticing in comics, and that they could reach an audience of all ages

which many people here might consider a good thing

Not the stand I was expecting from you, Goddard.

[Jacob Lyon Goddard]

Not the stand I was expecting from you, Goddard.

i didn't say I agreed with it

i think the audacity it takes to say "comics go as Marvel goes" (or something to that affect) is fucking bullshit, and i'm quite happy i don't have to see him and Joey Q pop up on all the major news outlets trying to convince people that the black Captain America TRUTH series, or TROUBLE, or Wolverine ORIGIN is the greatest achievement of the comic book artform

[juampi]

Not the stand I was expecting from you, Goddard.

What stand were you expecting?

[Jacob Lyon Goddard]

What stand were you expecting?

see above, i'd imagine

[juampi]

When I started my post your answer wasn't there yet, nevermind...

[Jacob Lyon Goddard]

When I started my post your answer wasn't there yet, nevermind...

no worries


wish some more of the people who voted "nay" would speak up

[The Roman Candle]

Like any leader, Jemas did some great stuff and some really crappy stuff.

However, it is my opinion that the great far outweighs the bad. I'm glad he led Marvel for the time he did.

[The Roman Candle]

he made huge and public strides in convincing the public that Superheroes where still the only thing worth noticing in comics, and that they could reach an audience of all ages

which many people here might consider a good thing

I don't know if I agree with that. During his tenure, Marvel (for the first time in a while) at least TRIED some non-superhero stuff. Granted it was mostly awful and short lived, but... I forgot where I was going with this.

[mike black]

What stand were you expecting?

I was expecting more about how they pushed Marvel out of it's old stomping grounds and into a new territory - atleast for a little while.

Time does that. I had completely forgotten what Goddard was saying - that they were really going out there and pushing the comics = super heroes mentality.

[Lemonade Lady]

I don't know if I agree with that. During his tenure, Marvel (for the first time in a while) at least TRIED some non-superhero stuff.

Trouble? They couldn't even run that without inserting Spider-Man references. The "controversial" Rawhide Kid mini series where the whole premise revolved around him being gay now? What else was there?

[Joe Henderson]

So was Ultimate Spider-Man.

I'm pretty sure that was pure Jemas/Quesada.

[Jacob Lyon Goddard]

I was expecting more about how they pushed Marvel out of it's old stomping grounds and into a new territory - atleast for a little while.

Time does that. I had completely forgotten what Goddard was saying - that they were really going out there and pushing the comics = super heroes mentality.

they were also really pushing certain books as the greatests comic of all time to the general public that turned out like shit

[Joe Henderson]

they were also really pushing certain books as the greatests comic of all time to the general public that turned out like shit

It's weird, Quesada is a great judge of talent, but he has some gigantic blind spots. For some reason or another, Ron Zimmerman amongst others fit square into one of those blind spots. They definitely had some ill-conceived passion for some projects, but I think the good far outweighs the bad.

Whatever happened with Jemas' new comic book company, anyway?

[mike black]

they were also really pushing certain books as the greatests comic of all time to the general public that turned out like shit

Just say it, Goddard. You hated Trouble. It's ok. We all did. ;)

[Jacob Lyon Goddard]

Just say it, Goddard. You hated Trouble. It's ok. We all did. ;)

i didn't read it

i did read Origin and Truth

unfortunately

[Jacob Lyon Goddard]

Whatever happened with Jemas' new comic book company, anyway?

he went around trying to steal too many of other people's talent, until no one would talk to him

at least that's what i heard and occasionally saw

[Joe Henderson]

i didn't read it

i did read Origin and Truth

unfortunately

I liked Truth for its ballsiness, though I don't think it came together. Still, some interesting ideas and elements.


he went around trying to steal too many of other people's talent, until no one would talk to him

at least that's what i heard and occasionally saw

Interesting.

[Lemonade Lady]

The adult line was a hideously wasted opportunity. They could have used the line to publish truly sophisticated and engrossing adult entertainment and widen their audience by appealing to a more elevated level. But apparently the height of sophistication is super-heroes swearing and butt fucking. Great job.

[Thudpucker]

Around 2000 is when I got back into comics, mostly because of what Marvel was doing. It seems largely due to Jemas that Marvel got it's act together, I'm grateful.

[Thudpucker]

Should superhero comic fans look back on Bill Jemas' stint as the head of Marvel comics with nostalgia and wistfulness, or relief?

I'm firmly in the first camp. While Marvel had both hits and misses during his tenure, the hits were some of the most interesting, risky, bizarre and enjoyable superhero/mainstream comics I've ever had the pleasure of reading.

We can't forget the misses, of course: failed lines (http://www.scifidimensions.com/Feb03/tsunami.htm), failed books (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FUltimate-Adventures-One-Tin-Soldier%2Fdp%2F0785110437%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks% 26qid%3D1191088841%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325), failed concepts (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FRawhide-Kid-Leather-Marvel-Heroes%2Fdp%2F0785110690%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191088797%26sr%3D8-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325), failed partnerships (http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=36&t=001498).

But c'mon guys, this is the era that brought you:

The greatest reboot of all time (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FX-Force-New-Beginning-TPB%2Fdp%2F078510819X%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qi d%3D1191088956%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325):
http://www.aaapop.com/images/covers/Marvel/xforce116.jpg
X-Force by Mike Allred and Peter Milligan (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FX-Force-New-Beginning-TPB%2Fdp%2F078510819X%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qi d%3D1191088956%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

Some of the funniest scenes ever (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FPunisher-Vol-Welcome-Back-Frank%2Fdp%2F078510982X%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26 qid%3D1191089030%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
http://overcaffeinated.net/img/punisher2.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FPunisher-Vol-Welcome-Back-Frank%2Fdp%2F078510982X%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26 qid%3D1191089030%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
From The Punisher: Welcome Back Frank (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FPunisher-Vol-Welcome-Back-Frank%2Fdp%2F078510982X%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26 qid%3D1191089030%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) - By Garth Ennis and Steve Dillon

The start of one of the greatest runs of all time (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fs%3Finitial Search%3D1%26url%3Dsearch-alias%253Dstripbooks%26field-keywords%3Dultimate%2Bspiderman%26x%3D0%26y%3D0&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/ultimate-spider-man/1-2.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fs%3Finitial Search%3D1%26url%3Dsearch-alias%253Dstripbooks%26field-keywords%3Dultimate%2Bspiderman%26x%3D0%26y%3D0&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
Ultimate Spiderman (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fs%3Finitial Search%3D1%26url%3Dsearch-alias%253Dstripbooks%26field-keywords%3Dultimate%2Bspiderman%26x%3D0%26y%3D0&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325), by Brian Bendis and Mark Bagley


The best fantastic four story ever (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FFantastic-Four-Unstable-Molecules-TPB%2Fdp%2F0785111123%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qi d%3D1191089178%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/511YSNYBTDL._AA240_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FFantastic-Four-Unstable-Molecules-TPB%2Fdp%2F0785111123%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qi d%3D1191089178%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
Unstable Molecules (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FFantastic-Four-Unstable-Molecules-TPB%2Fdp%2F0785111123%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qi d%3D1191089178%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) by James Sturm

The return of one of the great Marvel Characters and one of the great creators (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FHoward-Duck-Steve-Gerber%2Fdp%2F0785109315%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089260%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325):
http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/features/images/gerber/htdslides.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FHoward-Duck-Steve-Gerber%2Fdp%2F0785109315%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089260%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
Howard the Duck (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FHoward-Duck-Steve-Gerber%2Fdp%2F0785109315%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089260%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) by Steve Gerber and Phil Winslade

and one of the most artful, thoughtful, hilarious comics (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FBlack-Panther-Client-Christopher-Priest%2Fdp%2F0785107894%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089342%26sr%3D1-20&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) ever
http://www.comictreadmill.com/CTMBlogarchives/images/EverettRoss.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FBlack-Panther-Client-Christopher-Priest%2Fdp%2F0785107894%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089342%26sr%3D1-20&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
The Black Panther (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FBlack-Panther-Client-Christopher-Priest%2Fdp%2F0785107894%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089342%26sr%3D1-20&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) by Christopher Priest

Not to mention my favorite run of all time (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FNew-X-Men-Vol-E-Extinction%2Fdp%2F0785108114%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dboo ks%26qid%3D1191089419%26sr%3D1-3&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
http://www.astonishingtales.com/images/reviews/newxmen136.jpg
(http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FNew-X-Men-Vol-E-Extinction%2Fdp%2F0785108114%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dboo ks%26qid%3D1191089419%26sr%3D1-3&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

http://image.comicvine.com/uploads/item/2000/1457/167906-emma-frost_400.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FNew-X-Men-Vol-E-Extinction%2Fdp%2F0785108114%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dboo ks%26qid%3D1191089419%26sr%3D1-3&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

and

http://www.astonishingtales.com/images/reviews/newxmen137.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FNew-X-Men-Vol-E-Extinction%2Fdp%2F0785108114%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dboo ks%26qid%3D1191089419%26sr%3D1-3&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

New X-Men (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FNew-X-Men-Vol-E-Extinction%2Fdp%2F0785108114%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dboo ks%26qid%3D1191089419%26sr%3D1-3&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) by Grant Morrison, Frank Quitely and a handful of other greats

A scene people still talk about (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FAlias-Vol-Brian-Michael-Bendis%2Fdp%2F0785111417%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089572%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) years and years later
http://comics.imakinarium.net/kjon/censura/mgaliasex0.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FAlias-Vol-Brian-Michael-Bendis%2Fdp%2F0785111417%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089572%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
Alias (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FAlias-Vol-Brian-Michael-Bendis%2Fdp%2F0785111417%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089572%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)by Brian Bendis and Michael Gaydos

The greatest marvel action comic ever (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FUltimates-Vol-1-Mark-Millar%2Fdp%2F0785110828%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089650%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
http://www.michaelduff.net/ultimates9.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FUltimates-Vol-1-Mark-Millar%2Fdp%2F0785110828%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089650%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
The Ultimates (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FUltimates-Vol-1-Mark-Millar%2Fdp%2F0785110828%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089650%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) by Mark Millar and Brian Hitch

And maybe the best string of Marvel covers ever (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FIncredible-Hulk-Vol-Transfer-Power%2Fdp%2F0785110658%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26 qid%3D1191089719%26sr%3D1-12&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325):

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/7053/200/7053_2_0038.jpghttp://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/7053/200/7053_2_0039.jpghttp://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/7053/200/7053_2_0041.jpg
http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/7053/200/7053_2_0044.jpghttp://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/7053/200/7053_2_0046.jpghttp://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/7053/200/7053_2_0049.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FIncredible-Hulk-Vol-Transfer-Power%2Fdp%2F0785110658%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26 qid%3D1191089719%26sr%3D1-12&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

The Incredible Hulk (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FIncredible-Hulk-Vol-Transfer-Power%2Fdp%2F0785110658%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26 qid%3D1191089719%26sr%3D1-12&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) Vol. 2 by Bruce Jones, covers by KAARE ANDREWS



I could go on and on and on.

Back when this stuff was being published, I read Lying in the Gutters like an addict; I couldn't wait for Wednesday to come; I was reading the fan pages, forums, Millar Hour chats, whatever...

Why? Because people were trying new stuff. Creativity was winning out over commercial considerations, and that's always fun to watch, and something I'll always support.

To the guy who misses 1997....more power to ya...but that's when I dropped comics like a stone. The art was ugly. The stories were cynical efforts to part me from my money. And it just wasn't very interesting.

And that's how Marvel's been since Jemas left. I avoided this Civil War stupidity like the plague, haven't bought a new comic in months and months. The other day I took a peek at the Civil War trade at a book store....

you know what? It wasn't that good? The only enjoyment I could see someone getting from it, was wanting to see what would happen next to their favorite intellectual property. It was a collection of small ideas published in the hopes of exploiting a docile, addicted audience. No thanks. Show me something new and different. And that's what Jemas did.

Granted, he could afford to, since business was in the crapper. But that was easily the most interesting period in Marvel publishing that I've ever seen in 15 years of reading.

So yeah, I wish he'd come back. Or at least, I wish they'd stop publishing fan service.

I could keep going about how awesome this period was (Daredevil anyone?). I had to leave out a lot of stuff, but what other amazing things were published under Jemas?

Very well said, couldn't agree more! :thumb:

I don't read nearly as much Marvel now as I did then, I wish they would get a little of that adventerous spirit back.

[Akira]

After an almost 10 year absence from reading comics, 3 books got me going to the LCS every week: Marvel Knights Daredevil, Ultimate Spider-man and MAX Alias.

[Lemonade Lady]

After an almost 10 year absence from reading comics, 3 books got me going to the LCS every week: Marvel Knights Daredevil, Ultimate Spider-man and MAX Alias.

Out of curiosity, how did you discover these titles?

[Kefky]

I disagreed with a lot of what he did and said, but he was the first interesting and memorable EIC since Shooter, and that's good enough for me to respect him. He tried to shake things up, while Quesada brought in the talent. They made a good team.

[Luke]

There were a lot of creative chances/risks taken during that era.

Controversial books, indie writers and artists working on top Marvel characters, and the like.

I went with YAY.

The risks Marvel were taking back then with new talent was so much better than these giant crossovers and "events" that have been going on lately.

[/(. . )/]

He was creative.

He was taken down by fans who wanted someone to blame for something.

Everyone has bad ideas at times.

[/(. . )/]

Should superhero comic fans look back on Bill Jemas' stint as the head of Marvel comics with nostalgia and wistfulness, or relief?

I'm firmly in the first camp. While Marvel had both hits and misses during his tenure, the hits were some of the most interesting, risky, bizarre and enjoyable superhero/mainstream comics I've ever had the pleasure of reading.

We can't forget the misses, of course: failed lines (http://www.scifidimensions.com/Feb03/tsunami.htm), failed books (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FUltimate-Adventures-One-Tin-Soldier%2Fdp%2F0785110437%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks% 26qid%3D1191088841%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325), failed concepts (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FRawhide-Kid-Leather-Marvel-Heroes%2Fdp%2F0785110690%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191088797%26sr%3D8-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325), failed partnerships (http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=36&t=001498).

But c'mon guys, this is the era that brought you:

The greatest reboot of all time (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FX-Force-New-Beginning-TPB%2Fdp%2F078510819X%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qi d%3D1191088956%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325):
http://www.aaapop.com/images/covers/Marvel/xforce116.jpg
X-Force by Mike Allred and Peter Milligan (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FX-Force-New-Beginning-TPB%2Fdp%2F078510819X%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qi d%3D1191088956%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

Some of the funniest scenes ever (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FPunisher-Vol-Welcome-Back-Frank%2Fdp%2F078510982X%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26 qid%3D1191089030%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
http://overcaffeinated.net/img/punisher2.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FPunisher-Vol-Welcome-Back-Frank%2Fdp%2F078510982X%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26 qid%3D1191089030%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
From The Punisher: Welcome Back Frank (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FPunisher-Vol-Welcome-Back-Frank%2Fdp%2F078510982X%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26 qid%3D1191089030%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) - By Garth Ennis and Steve Dillon

The start of one of the greatest runs of all time (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fs%3Finitial Search%3D1%26url%3Dsearch-alias%253Dstripbooks%26field-keywords%3Dultimate%2Bspiderman%26x%3D0%26y%3D0&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/ultimate-spider-man/1-2.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fs%3Finitial Search%3D1%26url%3Dsearch-alias%253Dstripbooks%26field-keywords%3Dultimate%2Bspiderman%26x%3D0%26y%3D0&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
Ultimate Spiderman (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fs%3Finitial Search%3D1%26url%3Dsearch-alias%253Dstripbooks%26field-keywords%3Dultimate%2Bspiderman%26x%3D0%26y%3D0&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325), by Brian Bendis and Mark Bagley


The best fantastic four story ever (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FFantastic-Four-Unstable-Molecules-TPB%2Fdp%2F0785111123%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qi d%3D1191089178%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/511YSNYBTDL._AA240_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FFantastic-Four-Unstable-Molecules-TPB%2Fdp%2F0785111123%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qi d%3D1191089178%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
Unstable Molecules (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FFantastic-Four-Unstable-Molecules-TPB%2Fdp%2F0785111123%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qi d%3D1191089178%26sr%3D1-1&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) by James Sturm

The return of one of the great Marvel Characters and one of the great creators (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FHoward-Duck-Steve-Gerber%2Fdp%2F0785109315%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089260%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325):
http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/features/images/gerber/htdslides.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FHoward-Duck-Steve-Gerber%2Fdp%2F0785109315%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089260%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
Howard the Duck (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FHoward-Duck-Steve-Gerber%2Fdp%2F0785109315%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089260%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) by Steve Gerber and Phil Winslade

and one of the most artful, thoughtful, hilarious comics (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FBlack-Panther-Client-Christopher-Priest%2Fdp%2F0785107894%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089342%26sr%3D1-20&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) ever
http://www.comictreadmill.com/CTMBlogarchives/images/EverettRoss.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FBlack-Panther-Client-Christopher-Priest%2Fdp%2F0785107894%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089342%26sr%3D1-20&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
The Black Panther (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FBlack-Panther-Client-Christopher-Priest%2Fdp%2F0785107894%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089342%26sr%3D1-20&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) by Christopher Priest

Not to mention my favorite run of all time (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FNew-X-Men-Vol-E-Extinction%2Fdp%2F0785108114%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dboo ks%26qid%3D1191089419%26sr%3D1-3&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
http://www.astonishingtales.com/images/reviews/newxmen136.jpg
(http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FNew-X-Men-Vol-E-Extinction%2Fdp%2F0785108114%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dboo ks%26qid%3D1191089419%26sr%3D1-3&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

http://image.comicvine.com/uploads/item/2000/1457/167906-emma-frost_400.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FNew-X-Men-Vol-E-Extinction%2Fdp%2F0785108114%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dboo ks%26qid%3D1191089419%26sr%3D1-3&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

and

http://www.astonishingtales.com/images/reviews/newxmen137.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FNew-X-Men-Vol-E-Extinction%2Fdp%2F0785108114%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dboo ks%26qid%3D1191089419%26sr%3D1-3&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

New X-Men (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FNew-X-Men-Vol-E-Extinction%2Fdp%2F0785108114%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dboo ks%26qid%3D1191089419%26sr%3D1-3&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) by Grant Morrison, Frank Quitely and a handful of other greats

A scene people still talk about (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FAlias-Vol-Brian-Michael-Bendis%2Fdp%2F0785111417%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089572%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) years and years later
http://comics.imakinarium.net/kjon/censura/mgaliasex0.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FAlias-Vol-Brian-Michael-Bendis%2Fdp%2F0785111417%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089572%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
Alias (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FAlias-Vol-Brian-Michael-Bendis%2Fdp%2F0785111417%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089572%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)by Brian Bendis and Michael Gaydos

The greatest marvel action comic ever (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FUltimates-Vol-1-Mark-Millar%2Fdp%2F0785110828%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089650%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
http://www.michaelduff.net/ultimates9.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FUltimates-Vol-1-Mark-Millar%2Fdp%2F0785110828%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089650%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)
The Ultimates (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FUltimates-Vol-1-Mark-Millar%2Fdp%2F0785110828%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%2 6qid%3D1191089650%26sr%3D1-2&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) by Mark Millar and Brian Hitch

And maybe the best string of Marvel covers ever (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FIncredible-Hulk-Vol-Transfer-Power%2Fdp%2F0785110658%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26 qid%3D1191089719%26sr%3D1-12&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325):

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/7053/200/7053_2_0038.jpghttp://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/7053/200/7053_2_0039.jpghttp://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/7053/200/7053_2_0041.jpg
http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/7053/200/7053_2_0044.jpghttp://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/7053/200/7053_2_0046.jpghttp://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/7053/200/7053_2_0049.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FIncredible-Hulk-Vol-Transfer-Power%2Fdp%2F0785110658%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26 qid%3D1191089719%26sr%3D1-12&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

The Incredible Hulk (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FIncredible-Hulk-Vol-Transfer-Power%2Fdp%2F0785110658%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26 qid%3D1191089719%26sr%3D1-12&tag=passinreviewo-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325) Vol. 2 by Bruce Jones, covers by KAARE ANDREWS



I could go on and on and on.

Back when this stuff was being published, I read Lying in the Gutters like an addict; I couldn't wait for Wednesday to come; I was reading the fan pages, forums, Millar Hour chats, whatever...

Why? Because people were trying new stuff. Creativity was winning out over commercial considerations, and that's always fun to watch, and something I'll always support.

To the guy who misses 1997....more power to ya...but that's when I dropped comics like a stone. The art was ugly. The stories were cynical efforts to part me from my money. And it just wasn't very interesting.

And that's how Marvel's been since Jemas left. I avoided this Civil War stupidity like the plague, haven't bought a new comic in months and months. The other day I took a peek at the Civil War trade at a book store....

you know what? It wasn't that good? The only enjoyment I could see someone getting from it, was wanting to see what would happen next to their favorite intellectual property. It was a collection of small ideas published in the hopes of exploiting a docile, addicted audience. No thanks. Show me something new and different. And that's what Jemas did.

Granted, he could afford to, since business was in the crapper. But that was easily the most interesting period in Marvel publishing that I've ever seen in 15 years of reading.

So yeah, I wish he'd come back. Or at least, I wish they'd stop publishing fan service.

I could keep going about how awesome this period was (Daredevil anyone?). I had to leave out a lot of stuff, but what other amazing things were published under Jemas?

I nominate this for post of the year. I've never seen so much research and effort put into a post before.

[Kefky]

I nominate this for post of the year. I've never seen so much research and effort put into a post before.

Eh, not that hard to find those pictures on google. :)

[Bradford]

Eh, not that hard to find those pictures on google. :)

Hey! Don't be a hater. That took me a solid hour to assemble. Though perhaps that says more about the relative weakness of my Web-fu than anything else.

In all seriousness though, this is one of the few topics that will always get a rise out of me. Words fail me in trying to describe just how stoked I was back in the summer of 2002, during the 4 month wait between Ultimates #4 and #5. It was interminable. Every week, Newsarama had some new announcement or comment from Nu-Marvel that, while not always amazing, was at least thought-provoking. Nine times out of ten, those comments came from Jemas.

Here's how I've always understood the sea change that's happened in American superhero books in the last 20 years.

-1993: DC and Karen Berger found the Vertigo line. Top-quality talent from the UK sign up to pen "weird," "adult" comic tales. Americans are exposed to Neil Gaiman, Mark Millar and others. I remember distinctly reading an article in Wizard about these "weird" Vertigo writers writing "weird" stories that I wasn't old enough to read.

-1999: After some solid runs on X-stuff, Warren Ellis breaks into the mainstream of superhero-dom in a big way with the Authority. Passing it on to Millar suddenly elevates him and all the rest of his "weird" elk to A-level potentiates.

-2000: When Marvel decides to launch the Ultimate imprint, it gives the reins over to Bendis and Millar, a move that would have been unthinkable a few years earlier. Guys that wrote the sort of gritty, adults-only tales that they did starting out had never been put in charge of the bright happy superheros before....

But it was still only the Ultimate universe, so they had some leeway.

-2004 (?): With Avengers Disassembled, Wolverine, The Pulse and other books, the handoff was complete. Guys that would have been labelled as "weird Vertigo writers" just six years earlier were now running the honest-to-goodness Marvel universe on a reglar basis.

And I really do think this 10 year transition is the best way to understand the last decade of superhero comics: bringing these gritty "adult" writers up, through Vertigo, into Wildstorm, then the Ultimate Universe and finally the mainstream Marvel universe.

[Flonk]

The books you list were all beloved by a very small group of folks, and I certainly dig 'em all in varying degrees. But unfortunately, only Runaways survived. Hence the "ill-fated" in my remark. ;)

And I could also counter by listing the Tsunami books that weren't as strong as the ones you cite, like Namor and Human Torch and Venom, and I believe Emma Frost was also a Tsunami book, too.

Venom lasted for a while, longer than most Tsunami books. It might have been one of the few who survived after the imprint closed. But I could be wrong on that one. And it was one of Daniel Way's first books at Marvel, and he's done a lot of stuff for them since.

And Namor had Andi Watson writing, which has to count for something.

[Flonk]

i didn't say I agreed with it

i think the audacity it takes to say "comics go as Marvel goes" (or something to that affect) is fucking bullshit, and i'm quite happy i don't have to see him and Joey Q pop up on all the major news outlets trying to convince people that the black Captain America TRUTH series, or TROUBLE, or Wolverine ORIGIN is the greatest achievement of the comic book artform

Truth was a great series. With some great Kyle Baker art.

[NickT]

Venom lasted for a while, longer than most Tsunami books. It might have been one of the few who survived after the imprint closed. But I could be wrong on that one. And it was one of Daniel Way's first books at Marvel, and he's done a lot of stuff for them since.

And Namor had Andi Watson writing, which has to count for something.
These are from memory, so numbers may be wrong:

Human Torch - Cancelled with #6.
Mystique - Cancelled with #28.
Namor - Cancelled with #6.
New Mutants (vol. 2) - Became New X-Men, so technically still alive.
Runaways - Ended at #18 and relaunced, so still alive.
Sentinel - Cancelled with #12, got a further mini.
Venom - Cancelled with #18.
Inhumans - Cancelled with #12.
Emma Frost - Cancelled with #18.

[Flonk]

The adult line was a hideously wasted opportunity. They could have used the line to publish truly sophisticated and engrossing adult entertainment and widen their audience by appealing to a more elevated level. But apparently the height of sophistication is super-heroes swearing and butt fucking. Great job.

Speaking of which, I miss Alias.

[Flonk]

These are from memory, so numbers may be wrong:

Human Torch - Cancelled with #6.
Mystique - Cancelled with #28.
Namor - Cancelled with #6.
New Mutants (vol. 2) - Became New X-Men, so technically still alive.
Runaways - Ended at #18 and relaunced, so still alive.
Sentinel - Cancelled with #12, got a further mini.
Venom - Cancelled with #18.
Inhumans - Cancelled with #12.
Emma Frost - Cancelled with #18.

That's not a bad run for the majority of those books.

[NickT]

That's not a bad run for the majority of those books.
Yeah, but I do think they could have benefited from some spacing.

[mike black]

He was creative.

He was taken down by fans who wanted someone to blame for something.

Everyone has bad ideas at times.

I don't think you quite remember all the circumstances of what was being thrown around, Michael.

Remember, purportedly Epic was to be a way to bring in new talent at bargain prices so they could gradually phase out the longtime creators who were "earning too much".

That was what the public outcry was over.

[mike black]

Hey! Don't be a hater. That took me a solid hour to assemble. Though perhaps that says more about the relative weakness of my Web-fu than anything else.

In all seriousness though, this is one of the few topics that will always get a rise out of me. Words fail me in trying to describe just how stoked I was back in the summer of 2002, during the 4 month wait between Ultimates #4 and #5. It was interminable. Every week, Newsarama had some new announcement or comment from Nu-Marvel that, while not always amazing, was at least thought-provoking. Nine times out of ten, those comments came from Jemas.

Here's how I've always understood the sea change that's happened in American superhero books in the last 20 years.

-1993: DC and Karen Berger found the Vertigo line. Top-quality talent from the UK sign up to pen "weird," "adult" comic tales. Americans are exposed to Neil Gaiman, Mark Millar and others. I remember distinctly reading an article in Wizard about these "weird" Vertigo writers writing "weird" stories that I wasn't old enough to read.

-1999: After some solid runs on X-stuff, Warren Ellis breaks into the mainstream of superhero-dom in a big way with the Authority. Passing it on to Millar suddenly elevates him and all the rest of his "weird" elk to A-level potentiates.

-2000: When Marvel decides to launch the Ultimate imprint, it gives the reins over to Bendis and Millar, a move that would have been unthinkable a few years earlier. Guys that wrote the sort of gritty, adults-only tales that they did starting out had never been put in charge of the bright happy superheros before....

But it was still only the Ultimate universe, so they had some leeway.

-2004 (?): With Avengers Disassembled, Wolverine, The Pulse and other books, the handoff was complete. Guys that would have been labelled as "weird Vertigo writers" just six years earlier were now running the honest-to-goodness Marvel universe on a reglar basis.

And I really do think this 10 year transition is the best way to understand the last decade of superhero comics: bringing these gritty "adult" writers up, through Vertigo, into Wildstorm, then the Ultimate Universe and finally the mainstream Marvel universe.

You call it transition. I call it a cycle.

I really love Bendis. I'm huge on Millar's plotting (I've had issues with his dialogue,) and you all know what I think of Ellis.

But Bendis has settled into super hero mainstream. I'm not shitting on him, by any means, but I wonder if he wants to do more than sixteen super hero books a month. Millar shone in his Millarworld books. I'd love to see him stretch out again (albeit with a little less rape,) and really do something other than super heroes. Ellis is living his dream. As he's said he learned capes for the American audience, and he used it for what he needed to.

Also, let's not forget that this time frame (and events during it,) saw the rise of Finch, Quietly, Kirkman, Del'Otto, and tons more in the American Mainstream. Some did really well, some lukewarm (Winnick), and some not so well (Chuck Austen).

[Flonk]

I don't think you quite remember all the circumstances of what was being thrown around, Michael.

Remember, purportedly Epic was to be a way to bring in new talent at bargain prices so they could gradually phase out the longtime creators who were "earning too much".

That was what the public outcry was over.

Didn't Kirkman use Epic to get his foot in the door?






I'm just saying...

[mike black]

Didn't Kirkman use Epic to get his foot in the door?






I'm just saying...

Kirkman made his bones on Battle Pope (among others). I think Bendis used his executive power to help him in the door.

[Flonk]

Kirkman made his bones on Battle Pope (among others). I think Bendis used his executive power to help him in the door.

Oh, I know Kirkaman had other stuff before hand. But I'm pretty dure his first Marvel work was with Epic. Sleepwalker, maybe?

[mike black]

Oh, I know Kirkaman had other stuff before hand. But I'm pretty dure his first Marvel work was with Epic. Sleepwalker, maybe?

Lemme check.....

Ah, shit. That's right.


A second Sleepwalker character was planned to receive a self-titled series by Robert Kirkman in 2004 but instead debuted in the 2004 Epic Anthology, which was cancelled after one issue. The original Sleepwalker's next appearance was in Marvel Team-Up #15 nearly a decade after his original cancellation.

[Taxman]

I don't know what Waid-gate is.

[mike black]

I don't know what Waid-gate is.

Felicia. (http://comicbookresources.com/columns/index.cgi?column=litg&article=1679)


I don't know any other way to start this very revealing article, other than to once again point to the source of much speculation and controversy in comics: Bill Jemas.

"Surfing the Internet the last two weeks, I've seen many publicly bash Bill for managing Marvel the way he has to this point. I've seen almost as many come to his defence. What I want to attempt to do with this column is try to point out what should be the bulls eye of your collective anger and/or questioning. I've seen people resort to either crediting or discrediting him when it comes to things like "Marville," "Origin," "Namor" and other projects of his. But most of these things are the by-product of a philosophy that Bill shares alone. It is this same philosophy that is the root from which all these creations or abominations (your pick) stem from, such as the belief that he is capable of writing the entire Marvel line-up if given the proper tools and people to work with. This is about Bill Jemas' stance on the comic market, as it exists today.

"The first thing I would adamantly like to make clear is that Bill Jemas' view of comics is not that of an established, respectable means capable of attaining it's deserved public acclaim. He has attempted, through past efforts, to help 'validate comics' by approximating them as close as possible to the other magazines in newsstands. Larger in size, change of paper quality and density and even the art, in his eyes, should be produced in a photoshopesque manner in order to achieve an illusion with the ultimate means of mimicking the look and feel of 'real skin' portrayed in periodicals such as Maxim and Stuff. Some of these efforts have failed when attempted, yet others are still practiced or underway.

"The problem with this, of course, is that comics are not these magazines. They have, in the opinion of many, been the product of the labor of long lineage of intellects who breathed the life and culture already existing in the flame that we know today. To try and change or rearrange the configuration of this flame into some kind of money-making based scheme for simple marketing appeal and perspective, a very shallow and skewed one at that, is to say or to the least hint that the geniuses that laid out the foundation of comics, men and women of legend, were simply the gears and cogs not necessarily consequential to the product which resulted in the medium and base market that supports it today.

"The shameless, utter disrespect and lack of acknowledgment towards both ends of the spectrum that is this medium is evident in Bill Jemas' attitude both towards creators and fans. There are countless stories of irrationality on Bill's part that I cite involving creators who were unfairly treated or taken advantage of. These same creators have sometimes spoken out only to be shot down by the very people who should listen to what they have to say. The same goes towards the disfavor Jemas' does his fans by mocking them, sometimes publicly, and citing their differences as a small aberration pertinent to a minimal demographic that would not in anyway so much as put a dent in their decision making process, less have any impact on their sales, long term or short.

"In addition to this, there are several other factors and efforts already in motion revolving around the attempts to change the face of comics (at least at Marvel). However, the main change of which all these decisions are influenced by is so grand scale, that it will be gradually and cunningly executed under the public exterior of a sound marketing stratagem. Good for business that is, like the firing of Waid.

"I'd like for you to take into consideration a fact that isn't popularly known by fans and maybe a few creators: Marvel's total base income from their publishing division accounts for an average or nearly 5% of total current income. This means that they are currently making most of their money from things such as licensing and movies. This also means that, comics, the very lifeblood of the previous two, from a financial perspective is nearly irrelevant for the economic potency the company currently possesses. Which is the reason why Marvel's owners, Isaac Perlmutter and/or Avi Arad, are looking into either: A) Shutting the publishing branch down completely and simply license property out or B) Selling the company, all of it's intellectual property to either Universal or Sony.

"The concern here, for those who may not completely grasp the effects or repercussions that may result from either of these two, should be identified immediately as the fact that one of these will most likely keep the comic book industry alive and the other will not.

"In the event that Marvel does sell to Universal or Sony, it will have the backing of a powerful corporate giant, just as DC with AOL/Time-Warner, and a potential comics depression of the 21st century, if any, may and most likely will be adverted. This much is blatant.

"However, in the event that Marvel is unsuccessful in selling it's very valuable company to either of these two, or should the owners decide to tight-fistedly clench on to what they so rightfully acquired years ago, they will (are) considering the very real possibility of shutting down the publishing arm that has survived decades and near death as it struggled more than once to return as the prominent flag ship that it is now. Yes, this means no more Marvel comics. The end of titles like "Spider-Man," "X-Men" and "Daredevil." Or is it?

"Should Marvel decide to go down this shady path of uncertainty, it may be likely that the cornerstone which is the life of the company, its very blood, can crumble in waves of exiting disappointed fans of all kinds, new and old, supporters and bashers of the current Marvel. Though the loss of income, even 5%, may perhaps sound as a far-fetched concept for skeptics reading this, it is a fact that the owners themselves do not understand the mechanics and inner workings of publishing and why it is necessary in the continued long-term success of the company. Thus, if they see the publishing arm as nothing more than a headache, then it should be understandable why they would want to sever it. Although, if and when this happens, it will not necessarily mean the immediate demise of the company. The next Marvel bankruptcy will occur most likely under the condition that its movies start tanking and interest is lost in its licensing. This is somewhat unlikely, but still within the realm of reality as though these characters have become iconic, they have still, nonetheless become the money making movie phenomenon only and exclusively due to the fact that the comic books have existed to date.

"There are two people that may understand this more than anyone, and they are both at Marvel: Bill Jemas and Joe Quesada. Both men have been successful at convincing the owners that the publishing branch, despite its heavy investment in both money, time and risk venture, is completely crucial to the continued long-term success of licensing and movies. However, the interpretation of what the publishing branch should be, in theory, from both men, are two opposing ideals.

"Joe Quesada, or at least the original Joe Quesada, believed in the simple science that if the best creators were put on the best books, Marvel would deadlock a secure future in outputting both A) good stories, good books resulting in a healthy publishing division and B) good ideas, especially in terms of the future, where giants like Sony and Universal would come to Marvel as the elite think tank and house of ideas for their current property and future property or property that yet doesn't exist. Item B would be crucial towards the implementation of an engine that would secure wealthy financial future for the company. However, in this industry, views often collide. And since Marvel is at the heart of this industry, one could almost anticipate the inevitability of the following or the plan that is already in motion.

"Bill Jemas has subscribed to completely unconventional ideals, a religion if you will, of how to go about cementing the future of Marvel. In order to cut down on what, in his opinion, may be unnecessary expenses of both time and money and in an effort to admonish risk venture in individual titles, Bill is planning to slowly, but surely, replace every highly paid, respected creator, every talent that may be a 'headache' or may not hand in work on a timely fashion, but is still popular, every writer, artist or employee that may perhaps be a burden more than a blessing, financially or any other way, with an individual who will not be a required element or investment in their future and will have no interest in the full market potential of intellectual property. In other words, he wants people that will sell out cheap or at least people that they can milk for ideas.... and they are finding them.

"There are several or a mixture of tactics in effect to make this happen. I've cited Epic being part of this movement, but there is also a degree of 'good marketing decisions' that play into this. For those of you who made a fuss about the firing of Waid, you did so for whatever reasons, but none more so than the fact that instinctually, something about this didn't sit well, perhaps because you've been around since the last Marvel catastrophe or long before. Still, your gut just told you and in my opinion, you were and still are right if you believe none of it was blown out of proportion. A few weeks ago, some complaining about the Waid situation turned their heads and silenced in light of this new intriguing person that was going to take the reigns of FF. What you just witnessed happen is the collective shift of interest in one known creator to one practically unknown. This may not be the last time you see this.

"Why would Jemas play this risky game of replacing everyone? Well, as I mentioned, Bill hasn't respect for comics as its own medium. And sadly, he sees comics as nothing more but an advertising gimmick for the real money maker: movies. If this is hard to believe, ask any ex-marvel employee (if you know one). Politely request for them to be sincere and possibly as unbiased as possible in telling you this truth.

"If Jemas has his way, what will result in these books is a slew of generic art and story telling that will pummel Marvel back into the age where they did this the first time. The previous age of Marvel bankruptcy, where what readers got was uninteresting art and writing from unknowns, rehashing of old plots, frivolous stories that shattered established story continuity which turned the reader off causing just about every last fan walk out. However, the new twist for this century's bankruptcy, and what Bill is deliberately planning is the generalization of all art (all art should look the same) and writing (supervised and controlled by Bill), impractical new twists (from new creators with a fresh take on the Marvel Universe) to the rehashing of old plots and even more frivolous breaks in story continuity that will turn off a whole other generation of Marvel readers including the repented wave of fans who will once again lament and walk out the door.

"But Bill too is also aware of this possibility. Bill isn't as dumb as this looks. Which, as he has been doing so far, is only gradual transition towards this outcome. Testing the waters first and seeing how the fans react. In all fairness, I believe him and this plan capable of rolling with required momentum up until the point where the last good creator(s) have been replaced or eliminated. What I don't believe, and many others who work within the industry, is that this plan will bode over well in the long run. In theory, replacing everyone with cheaper versions of themselves seems to be a good idea, but there are outside factors that are not being considered or may not be getting enough attention.

"Fans will still want the 'Waids,' and with exceptions of creators who Marvel will deem more valuable (the last to get the boot from Marvel), these creators will go over to DC, Image or Dark Horse who will be waiting for them with arms wide open. A large portion of loyal fans will shift their weight in that direction as well. And though perhaps, the new faces at Marvel may, through some form of intrigue, quite possibly build their own fan bases, if they too should become just as popular as the fore mentioned, it is rational to think that they too will want to be paid just as much as they are worth, which should be completely understandable, but counter productive to what Bill Jemas will have then vainly been attempting. In which case, he will be forced to once again fire a creator and hire a new, cheaper one. Thus the cycle will ensue. And if Bill is planning to cycle an infinite barrage of new creators on books, the above mentioned about fans following their creators will happen in an even greater scale.

"However, another factor may well be that if Marvel is successful in ditching their beloved creators, and keeping their new creators at a very cheap price, DC and the like could quite possibly follow in the steps of this comics giant. After all, if Marvel is making just as much money, or even more by doing this, why should they too burden themselves with dishing out the big bucks to keep these respected creators working? Couldn't they just do the same? In theory they could. Hopefully they won't.

"Still, that future may be further down the road than anyone could postulate. Bill Jemas' attempts may only backfire a year or several from now. But by that time all the pieces will be put in place, and it will be too late for you, the fan, new or old, to do something about it. The rock and the hard place everything is sitting between is the desire of the owners to shut down publishing and to license out and Bill Jemas' blueprint of how to maintain the publishing division open but at a much lower cost. Where you come in is whether or not you will accept either of these two. Would you care if tomorrow Marvel stopped printing comics, and still go watch the movies they make and buy the toys? Will you care if your favorite creators are replaced with clones from other mediums and puppeted by Bill in an effort to manufacture or mass-produce creativity for advertisement purposes? If you went to see the next "X-men" or "Hulk" movie regardless of the decision to close publishing, then perhaps there is really no need for the publishing arm, and comics as we know it are doomed. If you would buy a comic that is now made at some generic level and more so exists simply to propel you into the seat of the next "X-men" or "Hulk" movie, then perhaps there is no need for creators of the books we buy, and comics as we know it are doomed. Which one of these would you prefer? Is there a lesser of two evils here?

"Let's see. If publishing shuts down, there would be some seriously dreaded consequences coming. Primarily, comic shops all across America dedicated to bringing you these valuable gems will immediately lose more than half of their business. And if they lose more than half of their business they lose more than half of their income. At this point, it is reasonable to understand that when they close, they will be doing so because they have no other choice. At a skeptical level, one could go as far as saying that the creators will still create a level of business elsewhere, such as DC, Image or something independent and enough so as to cushion the impact of losing nearly or more than half the market. In fact, DC and others may enjoy a level of growth from their newfound source of power if and when many leave Marvel. But we are talking about an event that will occur before or after the fact this all happens. In scenario A) Marvel will shut down publishing before they finish their transition causing the direct market to lose more than 50% of business. In scenario B) Marvel may be unsuccessful at siphoning interest from old popular creators to new intriguing ones, expanding a new fan base, will shut down publishing anyway, and will cause the direct market to lose about or more than 50% of its business (assuming Marvel still holds this share of the market) after the fact that everyone has already moved to DC, Image, Dark Horse or go independent. So if you can see, though scenario A seems as more solid in causing its consequences, scenario B potentially still holds the same risk.

"In A, we have an abrupt act by someone in power, and the result stated will most definitely happen. In B, it could happen and most likely will if fans do not take kindly to the replacement of nearly or either all of their favorite creators. But also reconsider the fact that if Jemas makes scenario B successful, it may be only temporary. After all, as I previously said, how long before DC decides that they should do the same thing Marvel is doing? Why not milk DC property as well for what is really worth and make more money now than we may or may not make later? This can happen. Is it a likelier possibility? I suppose it would depend on whether AOL/Time-Warner gives a damn. As someone pointed out to me, since when do they care what Marvel does? But also consider the fact that, if merchants shut down as a direct loss of nearly half of their business, where will DC, Image and others sell their comics?

"In addition, if this nightmare comes true, there are other things that will come to an end, as a result of anything even remotely similar to this happening. You can kiss publications that revolve around comics like Wizard goodbye. Really? Well you can if they are impacted by merchants across America shutting down. Who will sell Wizard? Perhaps they can shift everyone over to subscriptions. Maybe if they lay off half their staff they may find a way. Also, forget about those lovely comic conventions and adios to at least a few of those online communities many of you participate in that revolves around your favorite comic, comic creator or comic news. I think even Rich, who's been very generous and understanding towards me and my motives, will be out of a job or at least a past time. Do you get paid for this Rich? Just wondering.

"One thing is for sure: Personally, I have nothing to gain from revealing this. I've received lots of words in praise just as much as in anger. I've seen your posts on the message boards, both from those who wish me well to those who'd love to see me get caught. But to highlight to you, in case some of you may not really understand... I am only the messenger and came here under this circumstance. I came here months ago to tell you what was happening inside Marvel as far as a level of corrupt behavior that may affect you, but learned of this information instead as I carefully analyzed the facts. Still, though many of you are thinking this all sounds very farfetched, it isn't. Just pay attention carefully to how Marvel responds to this. If i can't convince you of this truth, then it's very depressing. If you discover the legitimacy of this, then it is also just as depressing. However, I'll point out to you that there is a silver lining and a message of hope attached: There is something you can do. But in order to do something about it, you have to believe that there is something you can do.

"The first step, I would tell most of you not to bash Bill Jemas. I've done this myself just recently and in the past, but it is online that I learned this will work against you. If you are going to post topics of inquiry and comments regarding any of this, you should do so in the most respectful way you can. Otherwise, angry sentiments will stifle any possible movement that we may be able to start. I would humbly beg you to do this, and furthermore I kindly ask you to resist any temptation to relieve and vent your frustrations online or via email in a disrespectful fashion. This will only be counterproductive.

"The second step is to in fact spread the word. I'm not saying to go post happy, and to crash the comics Internet for another 3 days (though I see this happening again), but to talk about it mostly in verbatim to friends and comic shop owners. Especially these merchants who, I would challenge to seek out the validity to any of this, and brace themselves starting from now. Maybe they can create a backup plan to save their businesses. Just talk. However, when and if you do this, also please do so in the most polite way possible keeping in mind that this is a delicate issue that worries everyone. I know I may not even have to tell you to do so, but if you believe this, any of this in the slightest, then you should also believe me when i say expressing your feelings to your comic shop owners in a positive fashion will influence this situation in a positive way thereby helping us get positive results.

"Third is, fans should make the utmost effort to act and band together as one. I was glad to see the initial response when many learned of what happened with Waid. I saw an interesting thread that was started by someone in an attempt to collect signatures to keep Waid on FF. When I last looked, the signatures where a few short of 600. Why? Why people, after all that fuss online did we only manage to get under 600 signatures on that thread? Many of you may think that this is just about getting Waid back on the book, but I challenge the creator of that thread to state that it also had nothing to do with showing Marvel that we could move collectively, because we can. And if fans are going to band together to save comics on this one, then as their first act of their newfound organization, they should find no excuse but to have that petition swamped, not in the hundreds but in the thousands. I say whether or not you believe that petition will bring Waid back to FF, you should sign it. It is not just a document requesting a creator, it is a symbol of our ability to move together as one. I saw earlier this week one of Marvel's newfound lapdogs bark out belittlement and cynicism at the fact that Bill Jemas had once again defeated the fans. This is not true and is nothing more than an attempt to extinguish whatever potential in your influence remains in terms of book sales after FF #509. I will not sit here and tell you not to buy it. I will not sit here and tell you to buy it. You shouldn't or no one should do things they are told to do. I think most agree with that. However, i would urge you, in light of this revelation, to go out to your comic shop when #509 (Waid's last issue) comes out and do what you think is best. I would also urge you to do the same when the issue that follows (#510 perhaps) with the new 'writer,' to do what you think is best.

"Another smart thing to do, from now on, is not to lump Bill and Joe into the same cake. If anyone understood the nature of what was happening within that company, you would not hate Joe for the reasons you hate Bill. Separate the two. Bill has successfully managed to syphon both popularity and power from Joe. He's become a controlling symbiote of the Bill & Joe entity that has put them in the same boat before the eyes of many of you. Remember when Marvel started over again, who was the one person you constantly heard about? Give that person back the power to do something about it. This is not to discredit anyone of deserving merit, but look back in history about 2 or 3 years. Study what has happened. Discuss it amongst each other. Let Marvel know what you think. However, again, in the most respectful way possible. Just force Bill to acknowledge that the walls of that company are now transparently clear or clearer than they were when he was trying to pull his numbers. Joe can opt out of this control being forced on him if he wants, but if he chooses not to there is a group of people that should wield more weight in the decisions that are made over there than any one person. Editors. Also, ask to hear more from editors, in cons, online and in books. You want to hear from the likes of these editors that are the only thing keeping or at least trying to keep that company honest right now. If you don't know their names, get to know them. Open your favorite Marvel comic and write their name down somewhere. Someone start a thread somewhere and list their names. We, as fans, need to remember the days when these editors weren't just a name in the credits, but a personality that took life in the letters column somewhere in the back of a comic. Open your books and make a mental note of the names of these people. By shifting your attention to them, you will give them more of an ability to help with this situation, rather than abandoning it as a ship which some think is inevitably going to sink. Make their opinions matter mre at the next meeting, when Bill gathers everyone around for their weekly tongue lashing. Because once this generation of editors is gone, i can guarantee you that it will be that much more difficult, nearly impossible to help make changes in Marvel plans and policy.

"Also, creators should be asked by their fans to look into this. And I don't mean by making them call Marvel. There is a level of discreetness required here in order to ascertain the truth. And if anyone has any information in regards to any of this, please see to it that the proper information is given to the proper people, or those who have the loudest and most effective voices in comics.

"And editors, without revealing myself, I would urge you to make whatever valid efforts you could now, especially in light of the fact that now everyone or most everyone knows what is happening. Now that fans know the truth, attempt to muster whatever remaining strength and courage in you to help both Marvel and Bill realize that there is a grave error in the decision making process currently being practiced, and that morale is, despite any morale boosting meeting, indeed is not what it should be. Nor will it become what they want it to be so long as editorial is suppressed. Remember the times before any of you became editors? What you thought the job would hold in store for you? How you looked forward to making the decisions you thought you were going to make or can the most senior of you recall the time when your jobs were actually fun? Now is the time to either do something or nothing about it. This is a window of opportunity, small as it may be, to change the course of events that can very well lead to the demise of comics. This company is a comic company. Not just a movie think-tank. Not just a licensing of intellectual property company. Comics. That's what brought all of you together. That is what brought all of us together. You are the first and last line of defence in helping deter the disaster that will possibly and most likely occur if Bill Jemas is allowed to do things his way.

"And Bill, I know somewhere deep down, there is a part of you that means well. But all this reeks of a conspiracy. One that is against everyone, but you and the owners of this company. Against your employees, creators, merchants and fans. I know there is nothing I can do to stop you. Maybe you have taken more power away from the editors just recently. But at least listen to the fans, who not so much want to manipulate what kind of stories Marvel tells, but simply want the caliber of loyalty they have invested in you returned in the form of good comics, in nothing more than the respectable medium that it exists as today. I don't believe you can force the comics market to expand using these tactics you have at hand. Have you stopped to think that maybe comics weren't meant to be the gigantic industry that you want them to be? And if they do have that potential, do you honestly think you can force it grow faster than it naturally would? Please tread carefully. We do not want one sole person to be the death of something so sacred that's existed for so long. In fact, there is nothing more that we want, like you, than a successful Marvel to help pave the way and generate a stimulus for smaller companies. Because what are you gonna do in the event that Marvel tanks due to this warped leadership? Maybe you'll resign and walk away as you haven't much to lose since you pulled out with your stock, and you'll point the finger at the very people who told you this was going to happen. I'm not alleging you of having committed anything illegal, I'm simply pointing out the level of confidence in your company's future. And how far your sincerity goes with this respect. You may not have to be 100% forthcoming with us, heck that is what presidents of companies usually are about these days. Still, we want a Marvel as close to honesty as it can get. We're ready to follow this company wherever it may go, so long as it's not over a cliff. We don't want fake comics. We don't want to be taken advantage of. We want what we give you in return. We want you to listen to your "mindless robots" and acknowledge what the word "editor" means. Overall, we are going to be wanting to hear more from them than you, or possibly even Joe (Not Bill behind a Joe mask), who from what I understand, due to this, may have his days numbered at Marvel. Still, we will be watching. Now more than ever.

"And fans, remember, this isn't just about bashing Marvel. This is about a greater picture that still many will refuse to see even after they have read this. This is about being able to act on information, and helping save a company that is in all of our hearts. Don't listen to me if it satisfies your speculation as to why I am even hiding to begin with. But at least study the facts carefully before you act or publicly speak out. If none of this is true and all of it is just something someone made up to feel good about themselves, then Bill, Marvel and you really have nothing to worry about. Still, there is a trail of breadcrumbs you can follow. Find it and just follow it.

"This is my last act as a thorn in the side of Bill. After this, I will no longer make any efforts to help curb the events that will occur within the next year. I leave what I said for you to act upon or not. If you see that the events unfolding fall into the criteria of the circumstance I have painted for you, do your best to try and find the truth of the matter. If you find out it is true, using your own means, then use your intellect and instinct on how to counter this chain of events. There are more things you can do to help aside from the things i mentioned. Collectively, you may come up with a better answer that may solve or help the problem at hand. And if you don't take action, not so much because you don't want to, but feel that this may not be true or can't come to accept that you can still change this, well... I tried. But analyze the facts. Don't be quick to judge and pay attention to actions whether in the form of responses or future business decisions. They say more than words coming from Marvel or even me, they speak truth. And truth is all I want you to know and all you want to know yourself. Keep a close eye on dovetails, as they are a good indicator of very deep rabbit holes. When you hear similar statements come from the mouth of more than one person, look into it and at least compare and contrast. Search for motive or special interests in everyone's part, see if they qualify as people that haven't much to gain from what they are telling you. It is those that have to least to gain from what they say that are being the most honest. It is those who have the most to lose in this that should be questioned and analyzed for loopholes. And prepare to hear the most sophisticated routine in answer to this you have ever heard. And in the event that you should buy into it, remember that, with all due respect, you were warned.

"Good luck to Marvel and their employees and all the creators and fans. I would love to say it's been a pleasure doing this, but it hasn't. Thank you for listening.

"Much love,

"Felicia"

[Kefky]

I don't know what Waid-gate is.

Man, I just did a search on google about this, and didn't find a single result actually EXPLAINING what it is! So sad! That shit should even have a wiki entry! :no:

[Taxman]

Felicia. (http://comicbookresources.com/columns/index.cgi?column=litg&article=1679)

Yeah, I guess I'll be looking at this one later.

Thanks Mike.

[mike black]

Yeah, I guess I'll be looking at this one later.

Thanks Mike.

I hid the transcript right there. Gimme a bit, and I'll look for the Waiting For Tommy article Rich did where they discuss crashing the Bendis Board and the ousting of Waid.

Here you go. (http://www.dynamicforces.com/htmlfiles/tommy43.html)

[mike black]

Read this also (http://www.dynamicforces.com/htmlfiles/tommy49d.html)... specifically pages 3 and 4. It's about a letter some retailler sent to the owner of Marvel. He apparently didn't like the way Jemas talked to the world, and really didn't like the way the comics were being done.

Excerpt:


"Bill Jemas told me of a story that a writer suggested in which the Hulk would rip the arms off of a person. I told him that the Hulk does not do such things, and that we need to remember that the Marvel superheroes are just that: Heroes. Hulk may look like a monster, but that ultimately, he is a hero.

"Jemas commented that there are so few good writers in comics available, offering this as some justification for the allowances given to many of the newer writers at Marvel who write superheroes uncharacteristically. He said that editor Axel Alonso is perhaps a bit embarrassed to be doing superheroes. I commented that if Axel Alonso feels this way than he should not work on superhero comics. I told Jemas that the management at Marvel should not allow the talent to dictate the stories if they are portraying characters in an improper fashion. I said to him that you do not allow the writers' own self-indulgence to interfere with the company's success.

"Was there any real resolution? Maybe not, but it was good to air my opinions to someone in a position to affect change at the company. Even though Jemas admitted that he is not in the position to alter every policy, I remind him that he is in a better position than any of the fans and retailers and that is why we appeal to him. "

[Jacob Lyon Goddard]

Truth was a great series. With some great Kyle Baker art.

Baker's name on the cover was the best part of that series

[Bradford]

Read this also (http://www.dynamicforces.com/htmlfiles/tommy49d.html)... specifically pages 3 and 4. It's about a letter some retailler sent to the owner of Marvel. He apparently didn't like the way Jemas talked to the world, and really didn't like the way the comics were being done.

Excerpt:

Good find. It demonstrats exactly what I try to stay away from with superheroes, creators who try to shoehorn their ideas into some conventional wisdom on what the Hulk does or doesn't do. This limits creativity and leads to less interesting stories. I totally understand the retailers point, and believe that comics that give the hard core addicts what they want...and nothing more probably sell better. But I'd rather read the story where the Hulk rips someone's arms off, becase the writer thought that was the way to go.

[I AM GROOT!]

These are from memory, so numbers may be wrong:

Human Torch - Cancelled with #6.
Mystique - Cancelled with #28.
Namor - Cancelled with #6.
New Mutants (vol. 2) - Became New X-Men, so technically still alive.
Runaways - Ended at #18 and relaunced, so still alive.
Sentinel - Cancelled with #12, got a further mini.
Venom - Cancelled with #18.
Inhumans - Cancelled with #12.
Emma Frost - Cancelled with #18.

Both Human Torch and Namor also ran 12 issues. Also, you left out the Crew, which ran for 7 issues.

[NickT]

Both Human Torch and Namor also ran 12 issues. Also, you left out the Crew, which ran for 7 issues.
Crew is an odd one. Sometimes it is called Tsunami, sometimes it is just a book that came out at the time. It didn't have the Tsunami branding (On the Marvel/rating/number box):

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/41521002415.1.GIFhttp://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/42492513717.1.GIF
http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/19613229411.1.GIF

[NickT]

Good find. It demonstrats exactly what I try to stay away from with superheroes, creators who try to shoehorn their ideas into some conventional wisdom on what the Hulk does or doesn't do. This limits creativity and leads to less interesting stories. I totally understand the retailers point, and believe that comics that give the hard core addicts what they want...and nothing more probably sell better. But I'd rather read the story where the Hulk rips someone's arms off, becase the writer thought that was the way to go.
But what is the point of writing the Hulk if you're not going to write the Hulk?



Plus, I'd counter that sometimes, limiting creativity is a good thing. Challenges the writer.

[lonesomefool]

I voted Yay, but honestly, I am buying more Marvel Comics now than I was when Jemas was in charge so I probably should have voted Nay.

[mike black]

But what is the point of writing the Hulk if you're not going to write the Hulk?



Plus, I'd counter that sometimes, limiting creativity is a good thing. Challenges the writer.

I think that challenging a writer from time to time, and letting he character bend some is very beneificial to comics. Changing who a person is on a regular basis (I.E. the Hulk rips EVERYONE's arm off,) is out of bounds, but mistakes can be intruiging. As they allow for growth.

[NickT]

I think that challenging a writer from time to time, and letting he character bend some is very beneificial to comics. Changing who a person is on a regular basis (I.E. the Hulk rips EVERYONE's arm off,) is out of bounds, but mistakes can be intruiging. As they allow for growth.
Agreed.

[Bradford]

But what is the point of writing the Hulk if you're not going to write the Hulk?



Plus, I'd counter that sometimes, limiting creativity is a good thing. Challenges the writer.

I agree with sentiment #2 wholeheartedly.

As for #1, I'm perfectly fine with someone giving me a wildly different take on a character. To me, the only thing that defines a Superhero is his or her origin story. So the Hulk would be "arrogant scientist irradiated by his own bomb while trying to save a drifter kid, who transforms into a superstrong humanoid under certain conditions." That's about all I'd require from a writer. The characterization and development from there on could go where they want to take it.

That's one of the reasons why I liked Unstable Molecules so much, and why I consider it one of the best Fantastic Four stories ever. Was it a wildly divergent take on the characters? YES. But it still got at a part of their essence by examining the relationships that tie them together.