Serialized vs OGN.

[Donal DeLay]

This isn't a debate on waiting for trades vs monthlies.

I've been thinking that the graphic novel seems to be gaining more steam lately, and I see a lot of great books going straight to one-volume reads and bypassing the serialized format alltogether.

Aside from corporate monthlies, do you see graphic novels becoming as much of a main format as serialized comics?

I don't mean will Marvel and DC be switching to a graphic novel format. I just mean, do you think graphic novels will ever be as popular or more popular than the traditional monthly format.

did that make sense?

[Jacob Lyon Goddard]

i think the format and binding techniques should reflect the concepts and the goals of the cartoonist/creator, in relation to the work itself.

having any kind of standardized format is a needless limitation on the individual's creativity.

[Afny]

i think the format and binding techniques should reflect the concepts and the goals of the cartoonist/creator, in relation to the work itself.

having any kind of standardized format is a needless limitation on the individual's creativity.

Agreed.

[jason hissong]

i think the format and binding techniques should reflect the concepts and the goals of the cartoonist/creator, in relation to the work itself.

having any kind of standardized format is a needless limitation on the individual's creativity.

perfect.

[Donal DeLay]

i think the format and binding techniques should reflect the concepts and the goals of the cartoonist/creator, in relation to the work itself.

having any kind of standardized format is a needless limitation on the individual's creativity. I agree. But regardless of how the book is bound and in what size format it is, the fact remains that any self-contained (sometimes multi-arc) story of more than 48 pages will always be refered to as a graphic novel.

Scott Morse plays with size proportions all the time. I once saw a book that looked like it was bound by string, like a scrap book.

They're still graphic novels, and the question is: will the graphic novel become as popular - if not moreso - than standard serialized formats?

Take Blankets, for example. dEnny is right, it WAS a bold move to do that as one volume and not serialize it. The option was obviously there but he went straight to one volume.

And Criminal. It reads SO much better as one volume than it does serialized. Yet, they chose to serialize the story instead of make one volume.

[Akira]

i think the format and binding techniques should reflect the concepts and the goals of the cartoonist/creator, in relation to the work itself.

having any kind of standardized format is a needless limitation on the individual's creativity.

I agree in theory. However, in the case of work-for-hire, part of your job is making your ideas fit into the format of the person hiring you to do the job. Creative freedom is a beautiful thing when working on your own. But, if someone hires you to paint their house red, you can't paint their house and their neighbor's house purple because that's how your creativity moved you that day.

[Mikie]

I see the indy market going that way over the next few years. It just makes sense. It's cheaper to print one 120 page graphic novel than it is four-or-five singles and it's getting more and more difficult to penetrate the direct market with indy books. Plus, the bookstores are more of an even playing field against the big companies.

And since Marvel and DC don't have to worry about getting singles into comic stores, it's safe to assume that they will be late adopters to that sort of format change and probably take a hit for it.

The drawbacks of this format is that you are producing maybe two graphic novels a year and you are asking people to shell out between ten and thirty bucks to give something a try, as opposed to the standard three or four bucks on a floppy.

[Jacob Lyon Goddard]

I agree in theory. However, in the case of work-for-hire, part of your job is making your ideas fit into the format of the person hiring you to do the job. Creative freedom is a beautiful thing when working on your own. But, if someone hires you to paint their house red, you can't paint their house and their neighbor's house purple because that's how your creativity moved you that day.

i can't tell who you're saying is wrong
me, or the work-for-hire system

[stevapalooza]

I think graphic novels have more mainstream appeal than monthlies for sure. Not everyone likes serialized fiction. In fact I'd say most people don't. It's a niche format. Monthly books are also weighed down by a lot of negative perceptions (it's all superhero stuff, mired in complex continuity, etc). OGN's, being a newer artform, don't really suffer from these preconcieved notions.

I also see the traditional comics industry and the OGN industry and two distinct entities. Like movies and TV.

[Akira]

i can't tell who you're saying is wrong
me, or the work-for-hire system

Neither of you is wrong. There are just different ways to do things. Your way works for the independant/self publishing market. And Work for hire works for their market. Great stories and crap stories have been told in each format, neither is better than the other.

[Joe Kalicki]

Neither of you is wrong. There are just different ways to do things. Your way works for the independant/self publishing market. And Work for hire works for their market. Great stories and crap stories have been told in each format, neither is better than the other.

Yeah. Independents pick a format to fit their story, mainstream stories are written to fit a format.

[Donal DeLay]

mainstream stories are written to fit a format.

And that kinda sucks.

[Jef UK]

I think the monthly format has more to do with advertising concerns of the big guys, and then the little guys aping the big guys because they think that's the norm. Marvel, say, makes their money in ad rates, not in comics sold. Marty Amateur, self-publishing his Mighty X-Dudes, thinks 22-page singles are the way to go, without thinking of advertising concerns, and can probably only afford to print off that many pages at a time anyway. Or at least this is one aspect of the serialized comics phenomenon. Surely online publishing changes the stakes immensely.

Also, I just read Black Metal out from Oni, and it was a spectacularly awesome OGN!

[johnstumbo]

There are some series I perfer to read in trade format mostly because of the pacing of the story. I never got Y Last Man and now am reading it in trade only. It is very good read but I dont think I would have liked it as much if I had bought single issues.

[Jef UK]

And that kinda sucks.

Eh, I don't think so. The 20ish pages per issue leads to some great comics with nice structures based around cool cliffhanger endings and the like. Writers like BKV excell at working within the format. I wouldn't begrudge a poet for working solely in the Villanelle form. And as you are illustrating, the 20-something-paged serialized story isn't the only format for comic creators.

[Christian Beranek]

I have a few series coming out through Zenescope, but the rest of my work will mostly be OGNs. I hate the wait between issues and prefer for my readers to have the whole story at once.

[THWIP!]

i think the format and binding techniques should reflect the concepts and the goals of the cartoonist/creator, in relation to the work itself.

having any kind of standardized format is a needless limitation on the individual's creativity.

Word.

[THWIP!]

I have a few series coming out through Zenescope, but the rest of my work will mostly be OGNs. I hate the wait between issues and prefer for my readers to have the whole story at once.

There's the problem though. Some people are more inclined to buy a monthly to try it out and see if they like it. People are usually going to wait for reviews and word of mouth to see if a GN is worth buying because they are going to feel really shitty if they spend $15 to $30 on a GN and it turns out that they didn't like it. Especially if the case is that the creators on the GN are not well known.

[Jef UK]

There's the problem though. Some people are more inclined to buy a monthly to try it out and see if they like it. People are usually going to wait for reviews and word of mouth to see if a GN is worth buying because they are going to feel really shitty if they spend $15 to $30 on a GN and it turns out that they didn't like it. Especially if the case is that the creators on the GN are not well known.

I think this is one of the areas where online publishing (here, a decent-sized preview) really can change the game.

[THWIP!]

I think this is one of the areas where online publishing (here, a decent-sized preview) really can change the game.

Yeah, kinda like that Black Metal GN from Oni Press. The preview was like 20 something pages. I checked it out because it looked interesting and I read the preview and I ended up not liking it. Money saved.

[Donal DeLay]

Yeah, kinda like that Black Metal GN from Oni Press. The preview was like 20 something pages. I checked it out because it looked interesting and I read the preview and I ended up not liking it. Money saved.
Massive previews is one of the ways Oni has been hooking me.

The preview of Vasilis Lolo's book, the 50pg preview from Off Road.

[Christian Beranek]

There's the problem though. Some people are more inclined to buy a monthly to try it out and see if they like it. People are usually going to wait for reviews and word of mouth to see if a GN is worth buying because they are going to feel really shitty if they spend $15 to $30 on a GN and it turns out that they didn't like it. Especially if the case is that the creators on the GN are not well known.

That is true, but that number is dropping fast, particularly in indie comics. More and more people are going to be buying OGNs rather than single issues as time goes on. The key is in how you market the books. You need advance reviews to generate buzz so people will take a chance on it.

This is the path I'm taking and it seems to be working well, so far.

[Jef UK]

First, there was blackness...

...then, there was metal!

I just read that Vasilis Lolo book too.

[THWIP!]

That is true, but that number is dropping fast, particularly in indie comics. More and more people are going to be buying OGNs rather than single issues as time goes on. The key is in how you market the books. You need advance reviews to generate buzz so people will take a chance on it.

This is the path I'm taking and it seems to be working well, so far.

Best of luck man.

[Donal DeLay]

That is true, but that number is dropping fast, particularly in indie comics. More and more people are going to be buying OGNs rather than single issues as time goes on.

This is the path I'm taking and it seems to be working well, so far.

This is the question I'm trying to ask. Will the OGN become more popular as a standardized format (assuming the creator doesn't have anything unique and original in mind) than the serialized format is.

Like Nightly News, or Lobster Johnson, or Hellboy stories ALL would work great as one-volume books. Do you think that most creators will opt to publish their single massive stories as 1 volume as opposed to monthly chapters?

Especially with what appears to be a more increasing lateness among general comics.

[Jacob Lyon Goddard]

This is the question I'm trying to ask. Will the OGN become more popular as a standardized format (assuming the creator doesn't have anything unique and original in mind) than the serialized format is.

Like Nightly News, or Lobster Johnson, or Hellboy stories ALL would work great as one-volume books. Do you think that most creators will opt to publish their single massive stories as 1 volume as opposed to monthly chapters?

Especially with what appears to be a more increasing lateness among general comics.

you need to realize the huge amount of money the corporate publishers make off of advertisers

Marvel and DC send out 100,000 copies of their more popular titles to newstands, 7-11s, etcetera.
they sell 5,000 of those issues, and the rest get mailed back and pulped
just so they can tell potential advertisers that if they put an ad in this comic, 100,000 copies of it will be on newstands across the country.

[Donal DeLay]

you need to realize the huge amount of money the corporate publishers make off of advertisers

Marvel and DC send out 100,000 copies of their more popular titles to newstands, 7-11s, etcetera.
they sell 5,000 of those issues, and the rest get mailed back and pulped
just so they can tell potential advertisers that if they put an ad in this comic, 100,000 copies of it will be on newstands across the country. I'm not talking about Marvel and DC, I'm talking about companies that don't depend on car ads and force product placement on the art.

[dEnny!]

One benefit to serialized comics is that it stays in the publics mind better. We have short attention spans so if you are going to tell an ongoing story of a character(s) such as BPRD, Hellboy, Goon, etc it is probably best to serialize it to keep it in everyone's mind than release an original graphic novel every 4-6 months. At least in the current comic environment.

I do think that Marvel/DC could easily release a Spider-Man, X-Men, Batman, Superman original graphic novel every month since they release multiple titles (issues in the case of Amazing) every month so there is enough material, but than as Jacob said they are forfeiting advertising revenue.

I love original graphic novels.

[dEnny!]

I'm not talking about Marvel and DC, I'm talking about companies that don't depend on car ads and force product placement on the art.

I think it is hard enough to compete against Marvel/DC that a title like True Story, Swear to God and Madman would not benefit by going directly to original graphic novels instead of serializing first. You need to build up your name brand.

[Jamie Coville]

The problem with serialized version is most of them don't even break even. There has been a long history of small publishers going under before the story is over. Both retailers and readers have learned the hard way not to bother with the single issues and just wait for the trade.

Now getting readers to take a gamble on a more expensive book is tougher than a 32 page comic book, but that is being overcome with the use of the Internet - which has a much wider potential readership than a comic book in the direct market.

And to be blunt, your not tied to the direct market either. Through the website you can link to Amazon, or do some direct selling if you choose.

[Jacob Lyon Goddard]

i'd like to point out that i almost never call them "graphic novels"
it sounds pretentious

yet when i call them "comic books without staples" it comes off as even more pretentious
it's a vicious catch 22

[dEnny!]

i'd like to point out that i almost never call them "graphic novels"
it sounds pretentious

yet when i call them "comic books without staples" it comes off as even more pretentious
it's a vicious catch 22

I don't think it matters what YOU call them, you always come off as pretentious. ;)

[Jacob Lyon Goddard]

I don't think it matters what YOU call them, you always come off as pretentious. ;)

:sad:

[Jamie Coville]

What Denny says is true too. I know at least one creator who started out doing OGNs, but found his popularity/fan base/sales went up with he began doing a monthly series and getting his name/work out there regularly. Retailers who make the ordering decisions might forget you after a year too, and that can hurt sales.

[Donal DeLay]

One benefit to serialized comics is that it stays in the publics mind better. We have short attention spans so if you are going to tell an ongoing story of a character(s) such as BPRD, Hellboy, Goon, etc it is probably best to serialize it to keep it in everyone's mind than release an original graphic novel every 4-6 months. At least in the current comic environment.

I do think that Marvel/DC could easily release a Spider-Man, X-Men, Batman, Superman original graphic novel every month since they release multiple titles (issues in the case of Amazing) every month so there is enough material, but than as Jacob said they are forfeiting advertising revenue.

I love original graphic novels. Using Hellboy as an example. The book is NOT monthly. So it's NOT constantly in people's minds. With the sporadic nature of the Hellboy mini-series' they can just as easilly be released as a single story and have the same impact. In fact, I would argue the impact on the GN would be better since they wouldn't need to worry about lateness like they are now.

B.P.R.D is a different story, and I'm not talking about taking an ongoing series and making it into 3 GN's a year. I'm talking about books that only come out in mini-series, or maxi-series. Books like Hellboy, Lobster Johnson, Nightly News, The Ultimates, etc.

[Jacob Lyon Goddard]

Using Hellboy as an example. The book is NOT monthly. So it's NOT constantly in people's minds. With the sporadic nature of the Hellboy mini-series' they can just as easilly be released as a single story and have the same impact. In fact, I would argue the impact on the GN would be better since they wouldn't need to worry about lateness like they are now.


Don, because there will always be suckers who buy both

[Jef UK]

Don, because there will always be suckers who buy both

Dark Horse and Image have advertisers too.

[Matt O'Keefe]

Don, because there will always be suckers who buy both

Yup. The only reason I buy anything in monthly format is because I need my fix. Mini-series I'll almost always wait for, though.

[Donal DeLay]

Don, because there will always be suckers who buy both Yeah, well, that's a given. Look at the variant cover.

I prefer donnie. Don is my pops.

[Donal DeLay]

Yup. The only reason I buy anything in monthly format is because I need my fix. Mini-series I'll almost always wait for, though.
But a mini-series is monthly. So you're saying that if it's a monthly mini-series it doesn't matter and you wait for the trade?

[Matt O'Keefe]

But a mini-series is monthly. So you're saying that if it's a monthly mini-series it doesn't matter and you wait for the trade?

Yeah. After it's been so long since the last mini I'll feel less of an urge to run out and buy it. My interest wanes, although it comes right back after I read the story. It's the stuff that comes month-in, month-out that can keep my anticipation high. Right now that's stuff like Fables and Criminal.

[Donal DeLay]

Yeah. After it's been so long since the last mini I'll feel less of an urge to run out and buy it. My interest wanes, although it comes right back after I read the story. It's the stuff that comes month-in, month-out that can keep my anticipation high. Right now that's stuff like Fables and Criminal. So, as far as a mini-series like Lobster Johnson goes, having it come out as a single graphic novel would be prefered by you?

[Matt O'Keefe]

So, as far as a mini-series like Lobster Johnson goes, having it come out as a single graphic novel would be prefered by you?

Yeah, definitely. But I see the reason they don't. Just means I have to wait an extra 6-8 months until I read it, which isn't preferred but berable.

[dEnny!]

Using Hellboy as an example. The book is NOT monthly. So it's NOT constantly in people's minds. With the sporadic nature of the Hellboy mini-series' they can just as easilly be released as a single story and have the same impact. In fact, I would argue the impact on the GN would be better since they wouldn't need to worry about lateness like they are now.

B.P.R.D is a different story, and I'm not talking about taking an ongoing series and making it into 3 GN's a year. I'm talking about books that only come out in mini-series, or maxi-series. Books like Hellboy, Lobster Johnson, Nightly News, The Ultimates, etc.

Yeah, but Spider-Man and those other titles I mentioned have a new issue released every week starring the character: Amazing, Sensational, Friendly Neighborhood and now Marvel has removed the other two and has Amazing coming out 3 times a month. They could easily have a new original graphic novel come out every month. :D

Is Hellboy late? I hadn't realized because I have to wait on my DCBS shipment.

Currently comics act as loss leaders for many titles paying for the production costs and then the trade makes the money.

[dEnny!]

:sad:

It's funny because its true.

[dEnny!]

Don, because there will always be suckers who buy both

SHUT UP! Hides his Q&C issues and HC. :(

[Matt O'Keefe]

Yeah, but Spider-Man and those other titles I mentioned have a new issue released every week starring the character: Amazing, Sensational, Friendly Neighborhood and now Marvel has removed the other two and has Amazing coming out 3 times a month. They could easily have a new original graphic novel come out every month. :D

But then, I thing, they'd think they were paying more despite it being the same price. Too many people don't understand that buying three $3 comics is the same as buying one $9 trade.


SHUT UP! Hides his Q&C issues and HC. :(

Any time I want to reread a comic a year after it came out, I buy the trade.

[Donal DeLay]

On-going monthly books are not what I'm looking at with the question, Denny. It's NON-Marvel and NON-DC mini-, or maxi-series.

I'm talking about the taste of watermelon and you're telling me how to make a philly cheesesteak sandwich.

[Matt O'Keefe]

I like what Jeff Smith is doing with RASL. Making the single issues oversized to showcase the art and the collection being a smaller size for the book stores. I'm a big enough fan that I'll be getting both.

[Adam Geen]

I've been struggling with this whole issue myself a lot lately as well.

[dEnny!]

On-going monthly books are not what I'm looking at with the question, Denny. It's NON-Marvel and NON-DC mini-, or maxi-series.

I'm talking about the taste of watermelon and you're telling me how to make a philly cheesesteak sandwich.

But...you like Philly Cheesesteak. :(

I made it non-Marvel/DC with my TSSTG example. I like OGN's, but one flaw with it is it is difficult to get comic readers to try something new blindly, especially if you don't have an already established name. Serialization allows you to get people familiar with your work.

I'm going to reread your first post. :Oops:

[dEnny!]

This isn't a debate on waiting for trades vs monthlies.

I've been thinking that the graphic novel seems to be gaining more steam lately, and I see a lot of great books going straight to one-volume reads and bypassing the serialized format alltogether.

Aside from corporate monthlies, do you see graphic novels becoming as much of a main format as serialized comics?

YES.

Top Shelf mainly releases only original graphic novels and Oni Press publishes a ton more original graphic novels than when it first started out. OGN's have been gaining steam since 2000 and each year sees more and more being released.

[Christian Beranek]

This is the question I'm trying to ask. Will the OGN become more popular as a standardized format (assuming the creator doesn't have anything unique and original in mind) than the serialized format is.

Like Nightly News, or Lobster Johnson, or Hellboy stories ALL would work great as one-volume books. Do you think that most creators will opt to publish their single massive stories as 1 volume as opposed to monthly chapters?

Especially with what appears to be a more increasing lateness among general comics.

If they aren't already opting to do so, they should.

The death kneel of the monthly comic may not be this year or next, but the world is changing and it is time to adapt.

Nothing against the monthly, as I grew up on it, but that's what I'm seeing.

[JHickman]

i think the format and binding techniques should reflect the concepts and the goals of the cartoonist/creator, in relation to the work itself.

having any kind of standardized format is a needless limitation on the individual's creativity.

At this point I've published , what... 7-8 comics, and I can tell you the 6.875 x 10.5 format is driving me completely batshit.

However, Image is letting me do a widescreen book next year. Stephenson feels my pain.

[JHickman]

This is the question I'm trying to ask. Will the OGN become more popular as a standardized format (assuming the creator doesn't have anything unique and original in mind) than the serialized format is.

I think yes - of course and maybe it alreadly is, but...


Like Nightly News, or Lobster Johnson, or Hellboy stories ALL would work great as one-volume books. Do you think that most creators will opt to publish their single massive stories as 1 volume as opposed to monthly chapters?

The monthly books are marketing loss-leaders. We knew that Nightly News wasn't going to be profitable monthly (although it turned out to be :eek: ) - We were always looking at the trade. But for a first time creator like myself, the PR of the monthly was EVERYTHING.


Especially with what appears to be a more increasing lateness among general comics.

Which doesn't get better with the extended deadlines of a 120pg book instead of a 22pg book.

[Mark Andrew Smith]

I think both. Serialized is a good way to build up an audience and gain steam. Serialized is really good for Superhero books as well. Serialized for black and white isn't so good because it seems like newspaper and super disposable (except of course for the one exception Walking Dead that works well like that). But with a black and white in an OGN it's not black and white it's a book.

I think a lot of people are burned by things shipping late so if there's an OGN the material is already out. A lot of people also don't have the patience to wait month to month or remember what happened last month. So the OGN solves that and gives a full story that's out and people can read it from the beginning to the end. I think it's a format that will get more and more sucessful the more folks just try it out because, singles are a bit more like process, and the OGN the end result.

But I think the answer is both.

[greg donovan]

i think the format and binding techniques should reflect the concepts and the goals of the cartoonist/creator, in relation to the work itself.

having any kind of standardized format is a needless limitation on the individual's creativity.

i agree.

i think that we should try to see how many people quote goddard's post in this thread.