Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition

[TheTravis!]

I don't consider myself a power gamer, but its pretty hard for me to choose a blatantly mechanically subpar option even if it fits my fluff.

So, I change my fluff. :)

I don't consider that pick mechanically subpar. Who knows, if it turns out to not do what I want it to do consistently, I might retrain it later.

[J. R. Scherer]

Monk playtest is available now.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20090511

[Shawn_Kehoe]

I ran an infiltration scenario this weekend that worked pretty well. The PCs were investigating a warehouse that was suspected as being a den of cultist activity. Since the town watch and city officials were possibly complicit, the PCs handlers urged them not to kick in the door but to use stealth instead.

The players rose to the task quite well. They occupied an adjacent warehouse under the guise of renovating merchants and staked out their target. Realizing that cultists were emerging after dark to kidnap homeless victims, the PCs set an ambush the following night. Disguising themselves using the cultists' masks and robes, they infiltrated the warehouse, killed the cult leader and led the prisoners to safety without raising a general alarm. It was a fun session. :)

[The Hodag]

I ran an infiltration scenario this weekend that worked pretty well. The PCs were investigating a warehouse that was suspected as being a den of cultist activity. Since the town watch and city officials were possibly complicit, the PCs handlers urged them not to kick in the door but to use stealth instead.

The players rose to the task quite well. They occupied an adjacent warehouse under the guise of renovating merchants and staked out their target. Realizing that cultists were emerging after dark to kidnap homeless victims, the PCs set an ambush the following night. Disguising themselves using the cultists' masks and robes, they infiltrated the warehouse, killed the cult leader and led the prisoners to safety without raising a general alarm. It was a fun session. :)

That sounds like a cool scenario, but it needs an otyugh.

[TheTravis!]

That sounds like a cool scenario, but it needs an otyugh.

EVERYTHING needs an Otyugh.

I started my new campaign last week. Kicked it off by immediately having the players rolling initiative. Their caravan was caught in a horrible lightning storm and they were surrounded by orcs. Good times. My wife's goliath warden kicks all kinds of ass.

[TheTravis!]

Monk playtest is available now.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20090511

Loving it. Half-orc monks (my personal favorite) are now super playable. :)

[Shawn_Kehoe]

Kicked it off by immediately having the players rolling initiative. Their caravan was caught in a horrible lightning storm and they were surrounded by orcs.

Somebody's been reading that Dragon article about the Thunder Serpent, hmmmm? :)

Part of the understanding between me and the players is that since every adventure is designed to fit into one play session, I'm allowed to start sessions in media res. I'm looking forward to the negotiation scenario where they start play with the two diplomatic delegations drawing swords on each other. :)

[The Human Target]

I don't consider that pick mechanically subpar. Who knows, if it turns out to not do what I want it to do consistently, I might retrain it later.

Me neither, I was just speaking more in general.

Rogues are just so full if win anyway, its hard to fuck em up.

[Benel Germosen]

Joining the RPGA. Any advice andor comments?

Also...I have procured 4E and will be procuring phb 2. It is as I remember it upon the few times I have encounter it. As a player, I am very excited to get in there. Cannot wait for Oct '10

[J. R. Scherer]

Me neither, I was just speaking more in general.

Rogues are just so full if win anyway, its hard to fuck em up.

Dexterity of 8.

[The Crushtacean]

Joining the RPGA. Any advice andor comments?

Also...I have procured 4E and will be procuring phb 2. It is as I remember it upon the few times I have encounter it. As a player, I am very excited to get in there. Cannot wait for Oct '10

If it's anything like it was when I was a member about 7 years ago, get ready to keep track of your character each session the way you do your taxes, advance as slow as hell, and go through modules so linear that any weird move means you fail. They are supposed to have changed it up and made it much more player-friendly, which I really hope is true- it can be a great way to meet new players and have some fun if you have the rare flexible DM.

[The Human Target]

Dexterity of 8.

A Rogue with a Dex of 8 would be caught and hung by the city guard well before he could gain his first level.

[TheTravis!]

A Rogue with a Dex of 8 would be caught and hung by the city guard well before he could gain his first level.

"Guys, I have a new character! He's a rogue with a Dex of 8! I named him Dead Meat!"

[The Human Target]

"Guys, I have a new character! He's a rogue with a Dex of 8! I named him Dead Meat!"

The only thing worse in gaming then someone wanting to play a shitty character is when "that guy" wants to be a hot elf chick.

[The Crushtacean]

A rogue with a Dex of 8 could be pretty cool. Spike his Int and Cha, and he's the oily, know-it-all who can talk his way into and out of anything with Bluff and Diplomacy. High Int helps his AC too. Make him a half-elf to get a diplomacy bonus and the choice of an at-will power from, say, the warlock list (that uses Cha) as an encounter power. Take the Melee Training feat from the PHB2, choose Cha, and at least his basic melee attacks can hit, so he can sneak attack. Sure, most of his powers are useless, but I think there are a few rogue powers that use Cha. His main usefulness isn't in combat anyway- it's in knowledge and interaction.

[TheTravis!]

A rogue with a Dex of 8 could be pretty cool. Spike his Int and Cha, and he's the oily, know-it-all who can talk his way into and out of anything with Bluff and Diplomacy. High Int helps his AC too. Make him a half-elf to get a diplomacy bonus and the choice of an at-will power from, say, the warlock list (that uses Cha) as an encounter power. Take the Melee Training feat from the PHB2, choose Cha, and at least his basic melee attacks can hit, so he can sneak attack. Sure, most of his powers are useless, but I think there are a few rogue powers that use Cha. His main usefulness isn't in combat anyway- it's in knowledge and interaction.


You're not allowed to play D&D with me. :)

[Nick Hale]

You're not allowed to play D&D with me. :)

I'm actually good with his idea, I played a rogue similar to this in 3.5 and had a blast. I was damn near useless in combat but out of combat I made myself so useful that no one could really argue with me being around.

[The Hodag]

You're not allowed to play D&D with me. :)

Crush is my adviser on character leveling. :)

[The Hodag]

Part of the understanding between me and the players is that since every adventure is designed to fit into one play session, I'm allowed to start sessions in media res. I'm looking forward to the negotiation scenario where they start play with the two diplomatic delegations drawing swords on each other. :)

I thought I'd responded to this yesterday, but I don't see my post so maybe it glitched (or I posted in another thread :Oops:)

Anyway, I'm interested by the idea of starting in media res. I've played in plenty of games that opened with combat as a jumpstart, but rarely with a story in full swing. Is this a common thing for DMs? It seems like an idea with lots of potential.

[Shawn_Kehoe]

I thought I'd responded to this yesterday, but I don't see my post so maybe it glitched (or I posted in another thread :Oops:)

Anyway, I'm interested by the idea of starting in media res. I've played in plenty of games that opened with combat as a jumpstart, but rarely with a story in full swing. Is this a common thing for DMs? It seems like an idea with lots of potential.

I don't think it's common outside of convention games or the start of a new campaign. Many players would resent the DM assuming a specific course of action, and it can destroy the feeling of player participation and control.

In a typical campaign I probably wouldn't use this a lot, but I'm using a fairly non-conventional game structure. The two main principles are:

1) Every adventure is completed in a single session.
2) The party lineup can change from session-to-session. PCs only participate in sessions when the corresponding player is available. (Everyone gets XP though)

This allows my friends with families and busy jobs to still play D&D by lowering the expected commitment. I'm a lucky DM; all of my players have been playing in my campaign for at least 2 years, and most have been playing for 8-14 years. My players trust me, which allows me to skip the setup and jump straight into the action, making the best use of my 4-5 hours of game time.

The biggest trick when using in media res is not to make the players feel that their trust is being abused. It's normally not cool to start a scenario by telling the PCs that they've done something foolish or dangerous off-camera when they weren't in control.

The above caveat can be worked around with a bit of forethought. For example, my senior player *loves* it when his PC exudes that action-hero aura of icy control. If I run a scenario where the players were captured by cultists off-stage and wake up trapped without their equipment, I know he will feel ripped off. But if I announce that they've let themselves be captured to work with a double-agent within the camp, his sense of enjoyment isn't compromised.

[Benel Germosen]

If it's anything like it was when I was a member about 7 years ago, get ready to keep track of your character each session the way you do your taxes, advance as slow as hell, and go through modules so linear that any weird move means you fail. They are supposed to have changed it up and made it much more player-friendly, which I really hope is true- it can be a great way to meet new players and have some fun if you have the rare flexible DM.

Well....this is reassuring.

[artimoff]

In medias res


As a player, I wouldn't mind starting in the middle of a story.

[TheTravis!]

I don't think it's common outside of convention games or the start of a new campaign. Many players would resent the DM assuming a specific course of action, and it can destroy the feeling of player participation and control.

In a typical campaign I probably wouldn't use this a lot, but I'm using a fairly non-conventional game structure. The two main principles are:

1) Every adventure is completed in a single session.
2) The party lineup can change from session-to-session. PCs only participate in sessions when the corresponding player is available. (Everyone gets XP though)

This allows my friends with families and busy jobs to still play D&D by lowering the expected commitment. I'm a lucky DM; all of my players have been playing in my campaign for at least 2 years, and most have been playing for 8-14 years. My players trust me, which allows me to skip the setup and jump straight into the action, making the best use of my 4-5 hours of game time.

The biggest trick when using in media res is not to make the players feel that their trust is being abused. It's normally not cool to start a scenario by telling the PCs that they've done something foolish or dangerous off-camera when they weren't in control.

The above caveat can be worked around with a bit of forethought. For example, my senior player *loves* it when his PC exudes that action-hero aura of icy control. If I run a scenario where the players were captured by cultists off-stage and wake up trapped without their equipment, I know he will feel ripped off. But if I announce that they've let themselves be captured to work with a double-agent within the camp, his sense of enjoyment isn't compromised.

I think you are probably one hell of a DM, sir.

[Benel Germosen]

In medias res


As a player, I wouldn't mind starting in the middle of a story.

As a DM, I wish I would have thought for my ill-fated campaign.

[TheTravis!]

In medias res


As a player, I wouldn't mind starting in the middle of a story.

I like starting off the campaign in that fashion, just to avoid the inevitable "meeting in a tavern" nonsense between characters.

For example, I ran Shackled City a couple years ago, and the players literally spent five sessions just walking around, talking to people in the city, and ignoring the plot hooks. Drove me goddamned crazy.

[The Crushtacean]

Well....this is reassuring.

Yeah, sorry to be a downer, and like I said, they are supposed to have changed it up to be much more free-flowing and less paperwork-intensive. To make sure nobody cheated they were big into the accounting back in the day.

[J. R. Scherer]

Well....this is reassuring.

Better to be prepared than to be let down later, I should think.

[J. R. Scherer]

Some artwork from June's Eberron Player's Handbook:

Click thumbnail to see the full image
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/excerpts_epg_0518th.jpg (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/excerpts_epg_0518.jpg) http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/excerpts_epg_0522th.jpg (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/excerpts_epg_0522.jpg) http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/excerpts_epg_0525th.jpg (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/excerpts_epg_0525.jpg)

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/excerpts_epg_0529th.jpg (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/excerpts_epg_0529.jpg) http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/excerpts_epg_0601th.jpg (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/excerpts_epg_0601.jpg) http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/excerpts_epg_0605th.jpg (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/excerpts_epg_0605.jpg)

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/excerpts_epg_0608th.jpg (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/excerpts_epg_0608.jpg) http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/excerpts_epg_0612th.jpg (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/excerpts_epg_0612.jpg)

[TheTravis!]

Thank god for the Campaign setting month. It gives me one month a year when I'm not going to be buying a new D&D book.

[J. R. Scherer]

Thank god for the Campaign setting month. It gives me one month a year when I'm not going to be buying a new D&D book.

Not me. I love Eberron which means in July I'll have to pick up two books: Eberron Campaign Setting and Divine Power.

[TheTravis!]

Not me. I love Eberron which means in July I'll have to pick up two books: Eberron Campaign Setting and Divine Power.

Drag. :)

I like what I've seen of Eberron, but I have forsworn all campaign setting purchases.

Thanks to Character Builder and DDi, I can get all the character goodies, and not have to spend any more $$$.

[Shawn_Kehoe]

I think you are probably one hell of a DM, sir.

Thanks :) I've gotta say, 4th Edition has really revitalized my interest in writing my own adventures. The majority of my 3rd Edition days were spent running modules - Sunless Citadel, Ravenloft, Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil and Shackled City. Course, I was working on an Engineering degree for most of that time period. ;)

[The Hodag]

Oh, seeing this thread reminds me: I broke my DM cherry over the weekend!

:lol:

Yep, it's true. Started GMing games in recent years, but I'd never run the grandaddy of 'em all, so when some friends expressed interest in learning the game, I volunteered.

And I think it went pretty well. Little stumbles here and there and (sadly) some slightly frustrating bad dice luck for one of the newbies, but by and large it was a good time.
I ran a modified version of the intro delve that comes with the 4E Starter Set. I was really bummed that it comes with about zero roleplay elements, so I tacked on some opportunities for roleplaying and expanded the dungeon so it wasn't just three fight rooms in a row.

Seriously, three fights in a row. What were they thinking? It's like they were playing to all the criticisms people had about 4E. :no:

Anyway, good times. Might follow-up on it with the group, we shall see.

Only big regret is that they didn't use the pre-gen Halfling Rogue, so I didn't get to use my cougar Halfling innkeeper to her fullest. :sad:

[TheTravis!]

Thanks :) I've gotta say, 4th Edition has really revitalized my interest in writing my own adventures. The majority of my 3rd Edition days were spent running modules - Sunless Citadel, Ravenloft, Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil and Shackled City. Course, I was working on an Engineering degree for most of that time period. ;)

My last campaign was a 4e version of Sunless Citadel. My new game is starting out with an updated version of Forge of Fury that everyone is having a blast with. My wife LOVES her goliath warden character. :)

[VonDoom]

Yeah, me and some buddies started a 4th ed campaign a while back. Oddly enough, it is the longest single campaign I've ever played. I've recently taken advantage of the online character generator to save my char-sheet, but it only goes up to Level 3. Anyone know where I can get the full version (hopefully without expending too much cash)?

[J. R. Scherer]

My last campaign was a 4e version of Sunless Citadel. My new game is starting out with an updated version of Forge of Fury that everyone is having a blast with. My wife LOVES her goliath warden character. :)

Goliaths are totally awesome and so are wardens. It's also strange to me that warforged make for super wardens.



Yeah, me and some buddies started a 4th ed campaign a while back. Oddly enough, it is the longest single campaign I've ever played. I've recently taken advantage of the online character generator to save my char-sheet, but it only goes up to Level 3. Anyone know where I can get the full version (hopefully without expending too much cash)?

D&D Insider is the only way to get the full version Character Builder. It's a great value, in my opinion, especially if any of your pals want to go in on the membership cost with you.

[The Hodag]

Question for the DMs: who among you is running all or mostly original material as opposed to published modules?

[TheTravis!]

Question for the DMs: who among you is running all or mostly original material as opposed to published modules?

I'm runnign published modules, but only in the broadest sense. I'm using 3rd edition modules for the maps, and then re-populating everything.

[TheTravis!]

D&D Insider is the only way to get the full version Character Builder. It's a great value, in my opinion, especially if any of your pals want to go in on the membership cost with you.

Agreed x100.

[Shawn_Kehoe]

Goliaths are totally awesome and so are wardens. It's also strange to me that warforged make for super wardens.




D&D Insider is the only way to get the full version Character Builder. It's a great value, in my opinion, especially if any of your pals want to go in on the membership cost with you.

Best to subscribe before July 2nd, when the annual rate increases from $60 to just under $72.

[TheTravis!]

Best to subscribe before July 2nd, when the annual rate increases from $60 to just under $72.

Still totally worth it, IMHO. The Character Builder alone is worth the price of admission, and the Encounter Builder and Compendium make my weekly game prep taKe about 45 minutes.

[The Human Target]

Question for the DMs: who among you is running all or mostly original material as opposed to published modules?

I'm about to run my first published module ever- Keep on the Shadowfell.

I've ganked ideas from modules before, and DUngeons adventures, but I've never run a module at like 90% as written.

[VonDoom]

Best to subscribe before July 2nd, when the annual rate increases from $60 to just under $72.

Woah nellie. Way to much money for me to justify spending on a glorified calculator.

[Shawn_Kehoe]

Woah nellie. Way to much money for me to justify spending on a glorified calculator.

Well, it's not JUST the Character Generator. There is also the Rules Compendium and 12 months of Dragon & Dungeon

[The Hodag]

Well, it's not JUST the Character Generator. There is also the Rules Compendium and 12 months of Dragon & Dungeon

Don't forget the Encounter Builder - also super-cool.

[VonDoom]

Worthy points, gentlemen. But I am a lowly PC, and the materials you refer to have no allure for me. I guess I'll just have to suck it up and do the math myself.

[The Hodag]

Worthy points, gentlemen. But I am a lowly PC, and the materials you refer to have no allure for me. I guess I'll just have to suck it up and do the math myself.

I'm usually just a lowly PC, m'self, and doubt I'd spring for Insider for the Character Generator alone, but...my DM was kind enough to hook his group up with his passwords so I've effectively got access for free. And the Character Generator is just fantastic. It's a great way to play around with characters until you get them right and the interface is ridiculously convenient.

It's something I'd be happy to pay for if I could get it singly, but in the meantime I should probably ask my DM again if he wants me to chip in on the subscription.

The Character Builder's hardly necessary, especially given 4E's user friendliness. I do think, though, that it's as good an optional purchase as you're likely to find. If you can go in on a subscription to Insider with a group, I'd recommend it.

[WinterRose]

Well, I just got into one of these campaigns. I'm still not sure how I feel about it yet. Essentially, my roomies said, "You're playing. Download this program and you can whip a character right up for the day after tomorrow." @_@!! Wow... short notice. Okay. Sure. Why not?

Now the character creation process is where I learn a lot of the rules when it comes to a new system. I find myself paging through a book to find out what these skills mean. What synergies they come with, how they can be used practically in a game. What feats may compliment others later on. I'll plan out a level progression with the feats I'd like to take towards the goal of prestige-classing later, or a specific style of play. It's how I get accquainted with a system.

v4 gets rid of that altogether. Yeah the program saves me all the fiddly bits of math and tabulation. It's got all those neat little whatsits in there for doing up whatever character you'd like of any race or currently available class. (Forget any third party supplements here I think.) But I'm not learning the rules using this program. It's like the difference between driving somewhere and finding your way with instructions and a map, and just following the animated car on the screen in one of those computer navigator devices. Yeah you get there alright. But if you run out of power in your navigator, I dare ya to find your way back without it.

My first impressions of actual combat are that the people over at Wizards have been playing a LOT of Everquest and World of Warcraft. I found myself thinking in terms of MMO's. Looking at the 'at-will', 'Encounter' & 'daily' attacks, I would think things like, "I could bust out that attack, but the cooldown's a whole day. Better save that one til later." Aside from that? I just kinda felt like I was arbitrarily rolling dice every now and again. I felt disconnected from any real strategic ability. I was just kind of transposing what I knew of 3.5 and hoping for the most part.

We just did one of those things where we all meet in a tavern, then hobgoblins burst in and start slaughtering everyone, roll initiative. It was meant to familiarize us with the rules somewhat. And I suppose it showed me how combat flowed to some degree.

Otherwise, I didn't see or learn much. I suppose it may help matters to print out the sheet that program made for me so I can have something tactile to refer to. Honestly, I think I'd like to just print a blank one and write all the stats in myself. At least I'll have some tactile-based memory of where my stats are so I don't have to hunt for them. I'll be playing again tomorrow. I rolled up a Warforged Archer Ranger type.

Now all this complaining about automation aside, there's one kind of automation I seem to really have gotten into. Using Second Life to come up with a character portrait ASAP is really swingin' and efficient. It let me figure out what I wanted to do in the visual sense, as well as what mini I wanted to get for the character I came up with.

I snagged me a Sandra Bullock shape from a store I know, used a skin I already had, snagged some adventurer type clothes. Altered a hairstyle I had in inventory with a copper texture and put some reflection on it. Shot her against a greenscreen in some different poses. Went through my backgrounds for something good to put her in front of. Baddabing, there she is.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v600/WinterRose/ARTWORK/RP%20Characters/SymphonyMyriadatRustyCity.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v600/WinterRose/ARTWORK/RP%20Characters/SymphonyatDarkRuin01.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v600/WinterRose/ARTWORK/RP%20Characters/SymphonyatWarriorsGate.jpg

Which led me to thinking of a mini. The new game also seems to have taken its cues from the fad of collectable click-minis that happened some years ago, in that it seems extremely geared toward having a grid and minis to work with. Okay. I'm game. I'm geek enough to be happy of an excuse to snag a mini and paint it. I hopped over to Reaper Minis to see if they had something like what I wanted. Check and Check. Got it in the mail today too. Here it is:

http://www.reapermini.com/pages/figure_finder_image.php?sku=14321_G.jpg&image=3

More on this the more accquainted I become with it. At least it may help me get a grasp on the Star Wars Saga rules eventually.

[The Hodag]

I do think the Character Builder's something to get into after you're already acquainted yourself with the nuts and bolts of the system, yeah.

As for the MMO influence, which has been discussed throughout this thread, I really like how it's led to such lively combat and interraction between players. What I don't like is that the discreet Power breakdowns lead players to think of their attacks as a checklist of options, not narrative elements. The flavor text of powers is rarely invoked (or elaborated on) and there are plenty of times allies use something I'm not familiar with and so I only hear "I use Commander's Strike." And I'm like...what the fuck is Commander's Strike?

As I'm considering doing some more DMing, I'd love to hear some suggestions on fixing this from the more roleplay oriented DMs out there. Because here's the thing - for the actual attack roll, it IS important for a player to tell the DM what precise Power he's using. But if that's all you ever hear, it's way too dry for me. I'd like to find ways to encourage players to describe or act out their actions.

I think it was J.R. who maybe handed out Action Points for such stuff, but I forget the specifics.

[Shawn_Kehoe]

As I'm considering doing some more DMing, I'd love to hear some suggestions on fixing this from the more roleplay oriented DMs out there. Because here's the thing - for the actual attack roll, it IS important for a player to tell the DM what precise Power he's using. But if that's all you ever hear, it's way too dry for me. I'd like to find ways to encourage players to describe or act out their actions.

Dramatic combat, eh? A DM's gotta lead from the front on this one.

One point to consider is how you run a monster's turn. Most DM's I've played with do this:

1) Announce which targets the monster is attacking, possibly with some descriptive flair.
2) Roll the attack.
3) Ask the player for the target's defense score and do the math.
4) Announce the result, again with optional dramatic description.

The problem with this is that game mechanics and math disrupt your narrative description. Also, it can feel weird if you describe a super scary/hideous attack only to roll a 1 on attack or damage.

Instead I suggest this:
1) Ask the player for his or her character's defense score. Don't tell them yet what it is for.
2) Roll the attack and do the math.
3) Describe the attack and the result.

I recommend always asking for the current defense score, even if you keep PC summary cards. Better to ask than to be reminded about a +2 AC buff two turns later.

If the PCs aren't taking cues from your dramatic monster descriptions, use NPC allies to the fullest. Describe the action, and only add the power name as an afterthought. NPCs are a great way to nudge players toward a certain style provided that you do so gracefully.

Finally, watch your players. If they are really enjoying the current way combat runs, don't push too hard to change it. Way too many DMs have screwed up good simple fun because they were worried that they weren't running their game the "proper" way.

[Shawn_Kehoe]

Instead I suggest this:
1) Ask the player for his or her character's defense score. Don't tell them yet what it is for.
2) Roll the attack and do the math.
3) Describe the attack and the result.


Also, if you REALLY want to get the player's attention? Fall silent for a few moments after before announcing the attack. If the monster is especially nasty, let your eyes widen a bit as you roll the dice. Look the player straight in the eyes and then slowly begin to tell them what has happened.

Of course, this shouldn't be the norm after every attack roll. But sometimes in the rush to keep combat moving quickly you can miss an opportunity for good drama by slowing down and focusing on the big moments.

[The Hodag]

Dramatic combat, eh? A DM's gotta lead from the front on this one.

One point to consider is how you run a monster's turn. Most DM's I've played with do this:

1) Announce which targets the monster is attacking, possibly with some descriptive flair.
2) Roll the attack.
3) Ask the player for the target's defense score and do the math.
4) Announce the result, again with optional dramatic description.

The problem with this is that game mechanics and math disrupt your narrative description. Also, it can feel weird if you describe a super scary/hideous attack only to roll a 1 on attack or damage.

Instead I suggest this:
1) Ask the player for his or her character's defense score. Don't tell them yet what it is for.
2) Roll the attack and do the math.
3) Describe the attack and the result.

I recommend always asking for the current defense score, even if you keep PC summary cards. Better to ask than to be reminded about a +2 AC buff two turns later.

If the PCs aren't taking cues from your dramatic monster descriptions, use NPC allies to the fullest. Describe the action, and only add the power name as an afterthought. NPCs are a great way to nudge players toward a certain style provided that you do so gracefully.

Finally, watch your players. If they are really enjoying the current way combat runs, don't push too hard to change it. Way too many DMs have screwed up good simple fun because they were worried that they weren't running their game the "proper" way.

Good ideas, all.

I'll post more on this later, but for the record, the person I'm really trying to please here is me. :lol: Not in that "my way or the highway!" style. It IS more fun for me when things get theatrical, but I also think it'll be a funner experience for everyone if they get into the cinematic flair occasionally. Not 24/7, but occasionally.

And I always get a kick out of trying to imagine why events play out the way they did. For instance, if the badass fighter happens to blow his roll on some monster he should've hit, I might say, "Looks like our fighter risked a glance to see if the Kobolds were still ganging up on the wizard and it threw off his swing" or something like that. I hate the "we suck" mentality that can creep up on a group or a player over bad dice rolls. It's nice to be able to lessen the sting with a little cinematic justification.

[J. R. Scherer]

I do think the Character Builder's something to get into after you're already acquainted yourself with the nuts and bolts of the system, yeah.

As for the MMO influence, which has been discussed throughout this thread, I really like how it's led to such lively combat and interraction between players. What I don't like is that the discreet Power breakdowns lead players to think of their attacks as a checklist of options, not narrative elements. The flavor text of powers is rarely invoked (or elaborated on) and there are plenty of times allies use something I'm not familiar with and so I only hear "I use Commander's Strike." And I'm like...what the fuck is Commander's Strike?

As I'm considering doing some more DMing, I'd love to hear some suggestions on fixing this from the more roleplay oriented DMs out there. Because here's the thing - for the actual attack roll, it IS important for a player to tell the DM what precise Power he's using. But if that's all you ever hear, it's way too dry for me. I'd like to find ways to encourage players to describe or act out their actions.

I think it was J.R. who maybe handed out Action Points for such stuff, but I forget the specifics.

I wish that the flavor text would be printed on the Character Builder power cards. It makes a huge difference in spicing up play, I think.

[J. R. Scherer]

Glad to see that you're playing and, yeah, the rules book is much more helpful for learning the system that just the Character Builder. The Character Builder is just that; it was never intended to replace the Player's Handbook.

Just a few nits to pick here, though.



My first impressions of actual combat are that the people over at Wizards have been playing a LOT of Everquest and World of Warcraft. I found myself thinking in terms of MMO's. Looking at the 'at-will', 'Encounter' & 'daily' attacks, I would think things like, "I could bust out that attack, but the cooldown's a whole day. Better save that one til later." Aside from that? I just kinda felt like I was arbitrarily rolling dice every now and again. I felt disconnected from any real strategic ability. I was just kind of transposing what I knew of 3.5 and hoping for the most part.
D&D has always had this, including 3rd edition. It was just that all spells were daily powers. As for the rest, reading at least the quick start rules will help you to think of strategies and experience with the game will help you to use your character's powers in effective ways with the rest of the party.



Which led me to thinking of a mini. The new game also seems to have taken its cues from the fad of collectable click-minis that happened some years ago, in that it seems extremely geared toward having a grid and minis to work with.
D&D has always been a mini game as well. Some of the minis from the official D&D line are of about the same quality as the HeroCLix stuff, though.

It's weird for me to hear and read so much from people thinking that D&D is ripping off or copying other games like the various MMOs when every single one of those games owes their very existence to Dungeons & Dragons.


More on this the more accquainted I become with it. At least it may help me get a grasp on the Star Wars Saga rules eventually.
Cool. I'm looking forward to hearing more from you.

[TheTravis!]

I wish that the flavor text would be printed on the Character Builder power cards. It makes a huge difference in spicing up play, I think.

Ditto, although I enjoy letting the players make up their own flavor text. For example, the Elven Dhampyr Druid in the game I am currently running has decided that her Flame Seed power takes the form of a firefly that flits through the air, lands on the enemy, and then explodes.

[TheTravis!]

Acording to the WOTC Editorial Calendar, D&D Insider people will be getting a chance to play as Revenants on June 15th. If that's what I think it is (a playable race of undead) count me IN! :)

[The Human Target]

May 15th?

Time to fire up my DeLorean.



On a side note, I looked through MM2 last night.

The best new monster of all time?

The fell taint lasher.

For serious.

[TheTravis!]

May 15th?

Time to fire up my DeLorean.



On a side note, I looked through MM2 last night.

The best new monster of all time?

The fell taint lasher.

For serious.


I meant June 15th. Dick. :)

And yeah, there's an article in Dragon next week all about "Fell Taint". That's going to amuse the shit out of me for the forseeable future.

[The Human Target]

I meant June 15th. Dick. :)

And yeah, there's an article in Dragon next week all about "Fell Taint". That's going to amuse the shit out of me for the forseeable future.

It does however make me want to make up fun new dirty monsters.

First up on the agenda- the mung.

[TheTravis!]

It does however make me want to make up fun new dirty monsters.

First up on the agenda- the mung.

I'm going to create a fell taint choker.

[Shawn_Kehoe]

I'm going to create a fell taint choker.

All kidding about the name aside, I think all DMs can agree that low-level aberrations are a much-needed addition to the bestiary.

[Shawn_Kehoe]

My big complaint about the power system / power cards isn't that they eliminate flavour, but rather that they can straightjacket the decision process and cause the player's to miss cool improvisational tactics using terrain.

As an aside, did others notice that the DMG places the "Situations the Rules Don't Cover" entry on page 42? Life, the Universe and Everything indeed. :)

[J. R. Scherer]

My big complaint about the power system / power cards isn't that they eliminate flavour, but rather that they can straightjacket the decision process and cause the player's to miss cool improvisational tactics using terrain.

As an aside, did others notice that the DMG places the "Situations the Rules Don't Cover" entry on page 42? Life, the Universe and Everything indeed. :)

I agree with that as well. It's too easy sometimes to think that the cards are your only options.

[WinterRose]

D&D has always been a mini game as well. Some of the minis from the official D&D line are of about the same quality as the HeroCLix stuff, though.

It's not so much a complaint really. I enjoy having a visual and tactile reference to what's going on in a combat. I used to compete a little with the HeroClick Dungeon stuff. I was modestly good at it.

As for official line minis? I tend to go for more quality sculpts from people like Reaper or Magnificent Egos. (Which breeds a whole new contempt for people like Games Workshop who crowd other companies like reaper out of the stores.)

[Nick Hale]

It's not so much a complaint really. I enjoy having a visual and tactile reference to what's going on in a combat. I used to compete a little with the HeroClick Dungeon stuff. I was modestly good at it.

As for official line minis? I tend to go for more quality sculpts from people like Reaper or Magnificent Egos. (Which breeds a whole new contempt for people like Games Workshop who crowd other companies like reaper out of the stores.)

I'm a huge fan of GW, most of this is because I absolutely love 40k. That being said my local gaming store is dominated with GW product, but they have a pretty good selection of Reaper stuff and lots of other minis as well so I'm probably not in the same situation as you if your local shops don't have as much in the way of other companies...

Also GW has some great fantasy minis that can be used for D&D as well, I know I've thought about getting a few, though theirs are generally better suited as monsters and npcs and less as heroes.

[The Human Target]

All kidding about the name aside, I think all DMs can agree that low-level aberrations are a much-needed addition to the bestiary.

I never agreed to that!

But yeah, it is nice. Now I wish we had more lower level large critters. Just because something is big, doesn't mean it needs to be a 21st level elite brute.


On a different topic, after rereading KotS I take back what I said about running an adventure almost as written. Its going to be like... 50% as written.

[J. R. Scherer]

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/excerpts/EPG_PPath_WJugg.pdf

Warforged Juggernaut paragon path is previewed today. Not much different from the version that appeared in Dragon Magazine.

[TheTravis!]

I never agreed to that!

But yeah, it is nice. Now I wish we had more lower level large critters. Just because something is big, doesn't mean it needs to be a 21st level elite brute.


On a different topic, after rereading KotS I take back what I said about running an adventure almost as written. Its going to be like... 50% as written.

Yeah, be careful with KotS. At least 75% of the people I know who have played it had to pull their punches with the Irontooth encounter or end up with a TPK.

[TheTravis!]

Holy crap, DnDI is totally earning its keep! This month Revenant race, next month Psion class, and in September, Shadow power source and Assassin class. Fucking sweet.

[The Human Target]

Yeah, be careful with KotS. At least 75% of the people I know who have played it had to pull their punches with the Irontooth encounter or end up with a TPK.

Oh yeah, there are several encounters that are too tough for their level. Irontooth, Kalarel, and Sir Keegan.

Even beyond that, the adventure has problems. The dungeon itself is long and repetitive. A few things don't make a ton of sense- why do the kobolds all stay outside the dungeon and the goblins almost solely stay inside it? There is nothing to prevent the PCs from just skipping straight from the town to the Keep, preventing any actual story telling and roleplaying from happening. Etc etc


Holy crap, DnDI is totally earning its keep! This month Revenant race, next month Psion class, and in September, Shadow power source and Assassin class. Fucking sweet.

Jerkstore!

That is awesome.

[J. R. Scherer]

The update to the Character Builder is pretty slick. I really like the idea of getting characters from D&D fiction in these updates. Nice to see that characters like Drizzt aren't completely maximized, either.

[The Hodag]

Anyone know why Wizards has let many of the Dungeon Tiles sets fall out of print? There's some earlier sets I'd love to get my hands on.

[The Crushtacean]

Anyone know why Wizards has let many of the Dungeon Tiles sets fall out of print? There's some earlier sets I'd love to get my hands on.

I believe they said in a press release that they hate money.

[The Human Target]

I caved on got DDI this month to check out the month.

I'm glad I spent the money overall, but the fucking Dungeon and Dragon back issues are buggy as shit.

[The Hodag]

I believe they said in a press release that they hate money.

It's definitely a different approach to business. It's cagey, unpredictable - the drunken boxing of financial fighting!

[J. R. Scherer]

I caved on got DDI this month to check out the month.

I'm glad I spent the money overall, but the fucking Dungeon and Dragon back issues are buggy as shit.

Buggy? How so? I've yet to have any problems with DDI.

[The Human Target]

Buggy? How so? I've yet to have any problems with DDI.

Some of them just do not want to download. I've tried on different computers. And its not specific to certain issues (though the older ones have given me more problems.) I'll try to download an issue, it'll freeze/stall my browser. I'll try it over and over again and nadda. Then boom two days later it works.

Its odd.

[J. R. Scherer]

Its odd.
Since neither I nor my gaming group have had any problems at all with it, I agree.

[TheTravis!]

DDI always works fine for me.

[The Human Target]

Fuck you guys then! :x

[The Human Target]

So my picture is in Knights of the Dinner Table this month.

Look for the section on the people who made their own hubcap of shame.

I'm the guy that looks like an owlbear.

[Nick Hale]

Yup, just to rub it in I've also had no problems with downloading any Dragon or Dungeon issues on DDI, though I haven't gone on there the past couple of months to get them.

[The Human Target]

Thats lame.

WotC hates me!

[Shawn_Kehoe]

The DDI PDF downloads don't play nicely with the Safari browser ... if you're using that, consider opening Firefox to download instead.

Revenants are out, and they definitely have a "Crow" vibe to them.

[TheTravis!]

The DDI PDF downloads don't play nicely with the Safari browser ... if you're using that, consider opening Firefox to download instead.

Revenants are out, and they definitely have a "Crow" vibe to them.

I dig them a lot, but the Con/Dex stat bump doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[J. R. Scherer]

I dig them a lot, but the Con/Dex stat bump doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Con for being undead-ish and tougher than normal, Dex for being Raven Queen-y.

[TheTravis!]

Con for being undead-ish and tougher than normal, Dex for being Raven Queen-y.

Still.

I was expecting them to line up better with the existing classes than they do. I'm still pysched to play one. Revenant Avenger for the win.

[The Human Target]

Yeah, not a fan of the revenant in the end.

The Raven Queen resurrecting a dwarf to look like Brandon Lee is kinda super lame.

Their dark reaping and unnatural vitality are meh.

I wish Revenant was a feat tree/template like Dhampyr.

[J. R. Scherer]

Yeah, not a fan of the revenant in the end.

The Raven Queen resurrecting a dwarf to look like Brandon Lee is kinda super lame.

Their dark reaping and unnatural vitality are meh.

I wish Revenant was a feat tree/template like Dhampyr.

I think they're kind of neat, but I agree. A bloodline-ish sort of feat tree makes more sense overall.

[J. R. Scherer]

Overall, I'm really digging the Eberron Player's Guide but I have to say that I really do hate the picture for the Warforged racial entry.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/EPGArt/tn_30.jpg (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/EPGArt/30.jpg)
click to enlarge

[J. R. Scherer]

Overall, I'm really digging the Eberron Player's Guide but I have to say that I really do hate the picture for the Warforged racial entry.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/EPGArt/tn_30.jpg (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/EPGArt/30.jpg)
click to enlarge

[The Human Target]

Hmmm yeah they're kinda frumpy and naked.

[J. R. Scherer]

Hmmm yeah they're kinda frumpy and naked.

They look yellow bus special in that picture. Recycle some Wayne Reynolds or something. Yeesh.

[TheTravis!]

Hey - those of you that use Dungeon Tiles - How the fuck do you plan ahead with these things? It takes me, like, a half hour to get a single room set up the way I want it.

[TheTravis!]

They look yellow bus special in that picture. Recycle some Wayne Reynolds or something. Yeesh.

Turns out that in Eberron, Warforged are made from recycled shortbus materials.

[The Hodag]

Hey - those of you that use Dungeon Tiles - How the fuck do you plan ahead with these things? It takes me, like, a half hour to get a single room set up the way I want it.

I had this same problem when I tried DMing the first time the other night. I know there's a program you can download from Wizards' site that lets you plot maps out based on what Dungeon Tiles you have, but otherwise...dunno...

What I'm thinking of doing when the campaign begins in earnest is only planning out key encounter rooms - a few per session - and leaving the rest of the dungeon up to verbal description. The problem is, I want some leeway as to where encounters might take place. If the players lure some Kobolds from their fortress out into the forest for an ambush, I want to be able to do that on the fly. At which point, unless I've got just the right terrain (and the time), I might as well draw something original on a vinyl map.

So right now my plan is:

*pre-planned Dungeon Tiles for key combat encounters
*DM verbal descriptions of all else (I like doing this anyway, as I think too much tiling on the table undercuts the coolness that players might imagine)
*vinyl mat and markers for anything I need to improv.

I may pick up more of the Paizo forests and ruins and whatnot, but I don't want to be so reliant on their specificity.

[The Human Target]

Hey - those of you that use Dungeon Tiles - How the fuck do you plan ahead with these things? It takes me, like, a half hour to get a single room set up the way I want it.

By not being an anal fissure?



Really, it is kinda awkward.

[Dave S.]

Revenant is also very similar to The Nameless One from Planescape: Torment.

[J. R. Scherer]

Played last night and had a blast. Our 7th level party fought a badass mummy lord and all of his undead minions. Everyone in the party aside from the wizard was knocked out at least once. My warforged fighter, Horn (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/Mog_Elffoe/RPG/card-Horn.jpg), was knocked to negative hit points two or three times. Our cleric and bard burned through every single healing power of theirs over the course of the encounter and every member of the party still was at less than 15 hp each by the end of it. As much fun as it was, it still took about 4 hours for us to complete that one encounter. It was the finale of multi-part adventure but that was still a long damned time for one encounter. We all roll damage dice at the same time we roll to attack, we have a spreadsheet that tracks initiative, conditions, etc. for us and it still took a really friggin' long time. What do you guys do to speed up combat in 4E?

[Shawn_Kehoe]

Hey - those of you that use Dungeon Tiles - How the fuck do you plan ahead with these things? It takes me, like, a half hour to get a single room set up the way I want it.

Once I'm happy with a configuration, I put all of the tiles in a plastic bag for quick access during a session. I also might sketch an assembly drawing on my graph paper if there are multiple interlocking tiles.

Another trick I have used is to take a picture with your digital camera, then use the LCD monitor to review it in-game.

[TheTravis!]

Once I'm happy with a configuration, I put all of the tiles in a plastic bag for quick access during a session. I also might sketch an assembly drawing on my graph paper if there are multiple interlocking tiles.

Another trick I have used is to take a picture with your digital camera, then use the LCD monitor to review it in-game.

I settled on taking pics of the layouts with my cell phone, and then putting all the tiles I need in a bag.

Did everyone pick up their FRPG Day shwag?

[The Human Target]

Sadly I couldn't make it to my FLGS for free goodies.

On a side note- sorcerers are awesome.

[The Crushtacean]

Played last night and had a blast. Our 7th level party fought a badass mummy lord and all of his undead minions. Everyone in the party aside from the wizard was knocked out at least once. My warforged fighter, Horn (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/Mog_Elffoe/RPG/card-Horn.jpg), was knocked to negative hit points two or three times. Our cleric and bard burned through every single healing power of theirs over the course of the encounter and every member of the party still was at less than 15 hp each by the end of it. As much fun as it was, it still took about 4 hours for us to complete that one encounter. It was the finale of multi-part adventure but that was still a long damned time for one encounter. We all roll damage dice at the same time we roll to attack, we have a spreadsheet that tracks initiative, conditions, etc. for us and it still took a really friggin' long time. What do you guys do to speed up combat in 4E?

I plan my actions while other people are going, familiarize myself with my powers so I know what dice to roll when and what bonus effects are gonna happen, and use power cards so I know what powers I've used already. Our DM keeps initiative tracked on his laptop, and we keep marks, conditions, and crap tracked on the map with counters and paper markers. Of course, encounters still end up taking a little while because most of us like doing weird crap that isn't always covered by the rules.

[The Crushtacean]

On a side note- sorcerers are awesome.

Yes. Yes, they are.

[The Human Target]

Yes. Yes, they are.

I'm making my next character right now.

Klaus Vunderbar, human wild magic sorcerer.

And his beholderkin familiar Heinrich.

I never get to play the striker.

My gaming dick is feeling huge right now.

[TheTravis!]

I'm making my next character right now.

Klaus Vunderbar, human wild magic sorcerer.

And his beholderkin familiar Heinrich.

I never get to play the striker.

My gaming dick is feeling huge right now.

Someday I will get to play my goliath rageblood barbarian.

Many things will be cleaved in twain.

[The Human Target]

Someday I will get to play my goliath rageblood barbarian.

Many things will be cleaved in twain.

I really wanted to give monk a whirl too, but someone else dibsed it.

I do like the barbarian more now then I did when the playtest came out. But I just never really like being the big tough guy.

[The Crushtacean]

I really wanted to give monk a whirl too, but someone else dibsed it.

I do like the barbarian more now then I did when the playtest came out. But I just never really like being the big tough guy.

My sorcerer Tengri (http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showpost.php?p=5964960&postcount=1719) acts a lot like a barbarian. I kinda feel like I'm playing one sometimes. Our defender is a warden who multi-classed barbarian, and he and I have bravado contests. :)

[Nick Hale]

My sorcerer Tengri (http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showpost.php?p=5964960&postcount=1719) acts a lot like a barbarian. I kinda feel like I'm playing one sometimes. Our defender is a warden who multi-classed barbarian, and he and I have bravado contests. :)

Yeah, my 4e party has a insane Dragonborn Wizard who wears full plate and carry's a great axe... he actually did an elbow drop on a kobold in a session to kill it, it was sorta awesome.

[The Human Target]

Yeah, my 4e party has a insane Dragonborn Wizard who wears full plate and carry's a great axe... he actually did an elbow drop on a kobold in a session to kill it, it was sorta awesome.

Thats a whole lot of feats and ability scores points to burn.

[The Hodag]

Thats a whole lot of feats and ability scores points to burn.

Yeah, I like playing against type a bit, but I don't know that I'd ever go that far - 4th Ed. is combat-centric enough when it comes to abilities that I'd feel weird undermining what my character is naturally good at. I don't min/max, but I still want to be pretty effective.

[J. R. Scherer]

Thats a whole lot of feats and ability scores points to burn.

It's only two feats if he were a hybrid fighter/wizard.

[The Crushtacean]

It's only two feats if he were a hybrid fighter/wizard.

It's no feats if he doesn't worry about being proficient.

[J. R. Scherer]

It's no feats if he doesn't worry about being proficient.

True. He is, after all, insane.

[J. R. Scherer]

I think if I played a Revenant I'd have him look more like this dude than the official bird-people appearance.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/hoh_gallery/91982.jpg

[The Crushtacean]

Now that dude looks like a Revenant.

[artimoff]

I think if I played a Revenant I'd have him look more like this dude than the official bird-people appearance.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/hoh_gallery/91982.jpg


Now that dude looks like a Revenant.

How is that dude not attacked in every city he goes into?

[J. R. Scherer]

How is that dude not attacked in every city he goes into?

Scarf, hood, shadows, etc. A mask, perhaps? Maybe he can tell folks that he's a plague survivor. Really, it doesn't take a lot of imagination to come up with something.

[Jono]

can you guys help me out? I haven't played D&D in like fifteen years, but I'd like to get back into it with the 4th edition. I'm going to lure all my friends into playing with the promise of punch and pie. So, what books do I need to get going? I'm assuming the handbook, dm guide, and monster manual, but what else would you suggest? there seem to be some low priced bundles o'stuff on Ebay, but I don't have a clue whats crap and what isn't.

Thanks!

[artimoff]

can you guys help me out? I haven't played D&D in like fifteen years, but I'd like to get back into it with the 4th edition. I'm going to lure all my friends into playing with the promise of punch and pie. So, what books do I need to get going? I'm assuming the handbook, dm guide, and monster manual, but what else would you suggest? there seem to be some low priced bundles o'stuff on Ebay, but I don't have a clue whats crap and what isn't.

Thanks!


There is a 4e starter set. I think it comes with dice.

[Jono]

yeah, I'll be getting that. Is there anything else you've found to be indespensible, or a module that is absolutely kick ass?

[The Crushtacean]

yeah, I'll be getting that. Is there anything else you've found to be indespensible, or a module that is absolutely kick ass?

I'd say be wary of the WOTC modules if you are a new DM and/or have new players. They have some strangely over-difficult encounters in them that are likely to just slaughter players just learning the game (and even some vets). A veteran DM can adjust those encounters, but if you are just getting back into the game and are new to 4th, that'll be rough.

The book Dungeon Delves has a number of quick scenarios of varies levels that you can throw into your game whenever, which can be handy when your players decide not to do what you expect them to.

As for indispensible, Players Handbook 2 has several more new playable races and base classes (stuff like the half-orc, gnome, shifter, deva, and classes like barbarian, bard, sorcerer, warden, and invoker) which really add some choices for your players. Arcane Power and Martial Power add more powers and class possibilities for the fighting and arcane types, again just adding choices.

Paizo puts out a number of Gamemastery Flip-mats that have various locations on them, which I find very handy as you can use wet and dry erase markers on them. I just draw what I need for that encounter on there and wipe it away. They are large enough for an encounter but not so big as to dominate the table. WOTC puts out dungeon tiles, but I don't use those because they take too much fiddling for me.

You will need figures to represent characters and monsters on the map- you can buy metal ones, or WOTC puts out prepainted plastic versions too.

[J. R. Scherer]

I second the PH2 as well as the books like Martial Power and Arcane Power. My group had no problem with the official 1st level adventure Keep on the Shadowfell, even when they tried to run from one encounter area blindly into another one causing the two encounters to be combined into one since everything from the first encounter chased them into the second. (This was just two characters at the time as well, since the other players had to leave early--a warlord and a warlock--and they wound up using a skill challenge to bullshit and bully their way out of the encounters. It's the only time the warlord has ever rolled natural 20s.) There were some really hairy moments with characters right on the brink of death, but the encounters that seem to have been killers for other parties my guys had no trouble with (Irontooth, for example.)

[Jono]

You will need figures to represent characters and monsters on the map- you can buy metal ones, or WOTC puts out prepainted plastic versions too.

Is this mandatory? I never used figs back in the day.

[The Hodag]

Is this mandatory? I never used figs back in the day.

The combat is very miniatures-oriented in 4th ED - even more so than in 3rd. You could pull it off without them, but I think you'd be fighting the system and might have more fun with another RPG.

[The Hodag]

There is a 4e starter set. I think it comes with dice.

Yep, I ran this for friends a few weeks ago. The session went well, but I came away really not liking the adventure portion of it. I do think they did a fine job with the concise rules and the extensive monster handbook, but the adventure is little more than a brainless dungeon delve: three monster combats in a row with no traps or anything else in between. It teaches combat and little else, so I had to work up a lot of "in between" roleplay stuff.

Which was fun, but would it have killed them to have a few more roleplay encounters than Guy Who Hires Them In The Bar? And maybe some skill checks?

That said, it's only $17. If you're wanting to get the basics, it's an excellent bargain and does come with a full set of polyhedral dice and surprisingly handy cardboard cut-outs of monsters. I recommend it for learning the hard mechanics of combat, but know that it's useless on the roleplay front.

[The Hodag]

Is this mandatory? I never used figs back in the day.

Incidentally, a cheap compromise would be to use coins or dice to represent players and monsters and just invest in a single one of the wet-erase vinyl maps. Most game shops have them and they have a 1-inch grid that fits the D&D standard in combat. Any wet-erase markers work on them.

I've occasionally considered going no-frills like this because, while the production values on the pre-paint minis and maps are nice, my instinct is to keep as much in the realm of the imagination as possible. I could describe a vampire count whose cloak seems to stream living shadow as he moves about like a panther...but you drop a mini on the table and, like it or not, THAT'S HIM.

[Jono]

Incidentally, a cheap compromise would be to use coins or dice to represent players and monsters and just invest in a single one of the wet-erase vinyl maps. Most game shops have them and they have a 1-inch grid that fits the D&D standard in combat. Any wet-erase markers work on them.

I've occasionally considered going no-frills like this because, while the production values on the pre-paint minis and maps are nice, my instinct is to keep as much in the realm of the imagination as possible. I could describe a vampire count whose cloak seems to stream living shadow as he moves about like a panther...but you drop a mini on the table and, like it or not, THAT'S HIM.

yeah, one of the things I really loved about playing was the theater of the mind aspect to the encounters. If I want to mess around with mini's I'll go play Talisman.


thanks all for your input! I'll check back in if I can get a game going...

[The Hodag]

yeah, one of the things I really loved about playing was the theater of the mind aspect to the encounters. If I want to mess around with mini's I'll go play Talisman.


thanks all for your input! I'll check back in if I can get a game going...

I will say this: I'm having a good deal of fun with the miniatures stuff, even though it's kind of counter-intuitive to what I want from an RPG. 4th Ed combat is very energetic and very mobile. Players have cool abilities from the get-go and the same goes for monsters. Last week I had a big, brawny guy whose headbutt would daze players and giant ants who, when one of their fellows dies, would go into a frenzy and get a free shift and attack. The monster special abilities are very flavorful.

For more dedicated "theater of the mind" style RPGs, I might recommend the FATE system (Spirit of the Century) or FUDGE. SAVAGE WORLDS is pretty cool, too.

[TheTravis!]

I think if I played a Revenant I'd have him look more like this dude than the official bird-people appearance.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/hoh_gallery/91982.jpg

I'm getting this Reaper mini for use as my Revenant Invoker.

http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/previews/latest/03428

[J. R. Scherer]

One of the guys on the WotC forums was cool enough to 'warforge-ize' this picture of Ultimate Rhino for my character. I definitely dig the results.

BEFORE
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/Mog_Elffoe/RPG/Horn.jpg




AFTER
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/Mog_Elffoe/RPG/Horn/HornWarforged.jpg




Initiative card
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/Mog_Elffoe/RPG/card-Horn1.jpg

[The Human Target]

Heh, thats cool JR.

Speaking of Warforged, I finally got to read through the Eberron Player's Guide over the past couple of days.

Color me disappointed.

Not only is it lacking in the layout department (vs the FRPG) but its really lacking in the 3E Eberron flavor that made the setting so different and interesting. It feels very generic.

Give me back my dinosaur riding halflings and pulpy comic art goddammit!

[TheTravis!]

Heh, thats cool JR.

Speaking of Warforged, I finally got to read through the Eberron Player's Guide over the past couple of days.

Color me disappointed.

Not only is it lacking in the layout department (vs the FRPG) but its really lacking in the 3E Eberron flavor that made the setting so different and interesting. It feels very generic.

Give me back my dinosaur riding halflings and pulpy comic art goddammit!

If one of yo\u guys could explain what a kalashtar is, that would be fucking awesome. So far, I haven't figred out how the hell to use it in a non-Eberron campaign.

[The Crushtacean]

If one of yo\u guys could explain what a kalashtar is, that would be fucking awesome. So far, I haven't figred out how the hell to use it in a non-Eberron campaign.

They're possessed human psionic monks, I think. Kinda specific to transplant, but you can do it with some effort.

[The Crushtacean]

Heh, thats cool JR.

Speaking of Warforged, I finally got to read through the Eberron Player's Guide over the past couple of days.

Color me disappointed.

Not only is it lacking in the layout department (vs the FRPG) but its really lacking in the 3E Eberron flavor that made the setting so different and interesting. It feels very generic.

Give me back my dinosaur riding halflings and pulpy comic art goddammit!

I think all that stuff is in the Campaign Guide, which just came out.

[The Human Target]

I think all that stuff is in the Campaign Guide, which just came out.

I know, but the Players Guide should do a much better job at setting the mood for the player's.

[The Human Target]

If one of yo\u guys could explain what a kalashtar is, that would be fucking awesome. So far, I haven't figred out how the hell to use it in a non-Eberron campaign.

There are these psionic dream demons called Quari. The bad ones directly take over human hosts and are called Inspired. The renegade good ones merged their consciousnesses with human hosts who then became the Kalashtar.

They are full of win.

[J. R. Scherer]

I know, but the Players Guide should do a much better job at setting the mood for the player's.

I agree. It needed to instill a more pulpy adventure-y noir-ish feel, and I don't think it succeeded, either. It's a good book overall, but there was a LOT of lost potential, I think.

[J. R. Scherer]

They are full of win.
I don't see it, myself. I love Changelings, Shifters, and Warforged, but Kalashtar leave me completely cold. Devas are a much cooler replacement, I think.

[TheTravis!]

The ____ Power books are one of my favorite parts of 4e. I love how periodically they release new books that complete re-energize my interest in playing classes from earlier PHBs. I want to play a cleric, for crying out loud.

[The Crushtacean]

I agree. It needed to instill a more pulpy adventure-y noir-ish feel, and I don't think it succeeded, either. It's a good book overall, but there was a LOT of lost potential, I think.

Yeah, WOTC seems to have made the decision that the Players Guides will be pretty much just rulebooks so they can feel better about not putting rules in the Campaign Guides, I guess. I dunno. I wonder if they are just assuming that everyone will pick up both, or somehow magically know the difference in intent.

[J. R. Scherer]

The ____ Power books are one of my favorite parts of 4e. I love how periodically they release new books that complete re-energize my interest in playing classes from earlier PHBs. I want to play a cleric, for crying out loud.

Same here, though I'm still waiting for my copy of Divine Power to arrive.

[The Human Target]

I don't see it, myself. I love Changelings, Shifters, and Warforged, but Kalashtar leave me completely cold. Devas are a much cooler replacement, I think.

I likes monks, psionics, and symbiotes.

Kalashtar make me pants happy.

[J. R. Scherer]

My copies of Divine Power and the ECG finall came in. Haven't had a chance to really dig in to the ECG yet, but Divine Power is yummy.

[The Crushtacean]

My copies of Divine Power and the ECG finall came in. Haven't had a chance to really dig in to the ECG yet, but Divine Power is yummy.

I wasn't too thrilled with the ways the domains came out- I think the feats ended up being too limited for me to really ever actually take them- but most of it is pretty cool.

[TheTravis!]

My copies of Divine Power and the ECG finall came in. Haven't had a chance to really dig in to the ECG yet, but Divine Power is yummy.

Hell yeah it is.

[J. R. Scherer]

I wasn't too thrilled with the ways the domains came out- I think the feats ended up being too limited for me to really ever actually take them- but most of it is pretty cool.

I have yet to find a Channel Divinity feat that I would take for any of my divine characters in all of 4E. In every single case I find that the class feature Channel Divinity powers are phenomenally better. The Domain feats, though, I thought were pretty cool. Bonuses to skills that are almost as good as skill focus and a neat effect to add to an at-will power. I do wish that there was a greater variety of epic destinies, though. Looks like it's nothing but avatars and demigods. I am pretty stoked for the Hammer of Moradin paragon path, though.

[J. R. Scherer]

Next campaign setting has been announced:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dnd_4spot_main.jpg
Dark Sun: James Wyatt
Spotlight Interview
08/14/2009
Spotlight Interviews Archive



This year’s 4th Edition Extravaganza seminar at Gencon, led by Bill Slavicsek, R&D Director for D&D, pulled the cover away to reveal the next big campaign setting that will be released for D&D 4th Edition. If you don't already know what it is by now -- is that cave on Mars comfortable?

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dark_sun_cg_b1y.jpg

Created by popular demand, this requested setting was saved specifically for now in 4th Edition, and will also feature new novels set in the world of Athas. As a follow-up to the initial announcement, we spoke with R&D's James Wyatt regarding the release of Dark Sun.

Wizards of the Coast: Let's start with the basics. Can you tell us about the process for determining this next campaign setting? What niche were you looking to fill, how were various settings nominated and critiqued, and what ultimately led you to Dark Sun?

James Wyatt: With Bill Slavicsek as the head of the department and Rich Baker as one of our senior designers, there was really not a lot of question about whether we’d do Dark Sun, just a question of when. Both Bill and Rich worked on Dark Sun among their very first projects at TSR back in the days of 2nd Edition A D&D, and both of them have been eager to revive the setting for years.

I think what made 2010 the right time for Dark Sun was a combination of factors. First, it’s going to utterly rock under the 4th Edition rules. Under 2nd Edition, Dark Sun was all about a grittier, action-packed feeling in a dark and dangerous world, and that’s going to map really well to the new edition and the baseline assumptions about the world. Second, one of the factors we've looked at in planning our settings is the degree to which a setting strays from the standard D&D medieval fantasy feel. Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Mystara -- those are all pretty close to baseline fantasy. Eberron strays only a little farther afield, with its pseudo-technological elements (airships, warforged, lightning rail). Dark Sun is something very different, and we felt it was time to show the breadth of what’s possible in the game, just what a broad swathe D&D’s kind of fantasy can cover.

Wizards of the Coast: For those players who may never have played Dark Sun in its earlier inception, can you give us a rundown of this world? How would you describe Dark Sun encapsulated, and what sets it uniquely apart from other settings?

James Wyatt: Dark Sun is a sort of post-apocalyptic fantasy, a world that’s been blasted and ravaged by out-of-control magic. The arcane magic of the world draws its power from the life force of things around it, and if it’s not wielded carefully, it can transform nearby plant life into ash and drain other living creatures of their vitality. That’s why the world is a desert, its civilizations concentrated in a handful of city-states ruled by evil sorcerer-kings and its wilderness haunted by marauding nomadic bands.

The gods of the setting are absent or dead, replaced by elemental spirits tied to the ancient primordials. Shamans and other primal characters draw on the forces of sun, sand, wind, and precious rain. Wizards practice their magic in secret or openly serve the sorcerer-kings. And psionic power is more common than on other worlds -- which is handy, since this setting will come out a few months after Player’s Handbook 3, which introduces the psionic power source.

Wizards of the Coast: How is Dark Sun being conceptualized for 4th Edition? What is being retained about the setting, and what might be added, altered, or deleted? Are there significant events in store, such as with Forgotten Realms and the Spellplague, or a broader retcon of the entire setting?

James Wyatt: Our goal with the setting was to cleave as close to the original boxed set as possible while still allowing as many D&D options as we could and making the setting ideal for 4th Edition play. We’re in the process of re-releasing Troy Denning’s excellent Prism Pentad series of novels, and we didn’t want readers to come away from those books and look at the campaign setting and not recognize it as the same world. So we tried to capture the essence of the original Dark Sun boxed set while ensuring that the Prism Pentad novels could be one possible way things turn out.

Wizards of the Coast: Are there elements of Dark Sun that you determined would be especially suited for the 4th Edition rule set? Conversely, are there elements of the setting that you understand will be a challenge to incorporate into 4E?

James Wyatt: As I mentioned before, I think the overall tone of Dark Sun makes it fit really well in the 4th Edition environment. In many ways, it’s really a perfect fit. Even the idea that characters might wear less armor or rely less on gear in general is easy to implement in the current rules set.

Wizards of the Coast: Can you give us a hint of what kinds of challenges and monsters unique to this setting will be in store for adventuring parties?

James Wyatt: Well, I can tell you for one thing that Rich and his team worked hard to make sure Dark Sun continued to feel like a place where the most dangerous enemy you face might be the world itself. It’s a brutal, harsh environment, and if that’s the kind of game you want to play, you’ll have ways to make survival beyond the walls of the city-states an adventure in itself. Beyond that -- nomadic elf raiders, cannibal halflings, hunting packs of thri-kreen, the deadly sorcerer-kings and their templars, braxats, silt wyrms, The Dragon …. Oh, and I’m told that Rich managed to make the belgoi’s game mechanics actually work well in the game.

Wizards of the Coast: And for the parties themselves, can you tell us what we might look forward to with Dark Sun character concepts and designs? How will, say, a Dark Sun fighter stand apart from a Forgotten Realms or Eberron fighter?

James Wyatt: One of the things I’m most excited about with the new setting addresses this question, but I don’t want to talk too much about it. Suffice it to say, at this point, that a Dark Sun fighter has a whole set of options available to him that aren’t (yet) available to other D&D characters. These options will add a whole new dimension to Dark Sun player characters, both in terms of what they can do within the rules of the game and in terms of fleshing them out as people in the world.


Thanks to Bill and James! Be sure to check our Gen Con page for ongoing coverage of the convention, and find out what’s happening with Dungeons & Dragons!

[TheTravis!]

Man, I was wondering iof one of you guys was going to resurrect this thread today. :)

My players hit 5th level last night. They're all suitably excited.

[J. R. Scherer]

Man, I was wondering iof one of you guys was going to resurrect this thread today. :)

My players hit 5th level last night. They're all suitably excited.

Our party is getting closer and closer to paragon. We're currently 9th level.

[Shawn_Kehoe]

Looking forward to Dark Sun.

Running a session tomorrow night, I believe the team just broke Level 5. Losing one long-time player who is moving to Toronto, but a former player who has just moved BACK from Toronto is rejoining.

Travis, have you used the Monster Builder beta yet? As a monster database, it kicks the hell out of the Encounter Builder.

[Eric Dashen]

As a monster database, it kicks the hell out of the Encounter Builder.

Agreed.

[artimoff]

Next campaign setting has been announced:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dnd_4spot_main.jpg
Dark Sun: James Wyatt
Spotlight Interview
08/14/2009
Spotlight Interviews Archive



This year’s 4th Edition Extravaganza seminar at Gencon, led by Bill Slavicsek, R&D Director for D&D, pulled the cover away to reveal the next big campaign setting that will be released for D&D 4th Edition. If you don't already know what it is by now -- is that cave on Mars comfortable?

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dark_sun_cg_b1y.jpg

Created by popular demand, this requested setting was saved specifically for now in 4th Edition, and will also feature new novels set in the world of Athas. As a follow-up to the initial announcement, we spoke with R&D's James Wyatt regarding the release of Dark Sun.

Wizards of the Coast: Let's start with the basics. Can you tell us about the process for determining this next campaign setting? What niche were you looking to fill, how were various settings nominated and critiqued, and what ultimately led you to Dark Sun?

James Wyatt: With Bill Slavicsek as the head of the department and Rich Baker as one of our senior designers, there was really not a lot of question about whether we’d do Dark Sun, just a question of when. Both Bill and Rich worked on Dark Sun among their very first projects at TSR back in the days of 2nd Edition A D&D, and both of them have been eager to revive the setting for years.

I think what made 2010 the right time for Dark Sun was a combination of factors. First, it’s going to utterly rock under the 4th Edition rules. Under 2nd Edition, Dark Sun was all about a grittier, action-packed feeling in a dark and dangerous world, and that’s going to map really well to the new edition and the baseline assumptions about the world. Second, one of the factors we've looked at in planning our settings is the degree to which a setting strays from the standard D&D medieval fantasy feel. Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Mystara -- those are all pretty close to baseline fantasy. Eberron strays only a little farther afield, with its pseudo-technological elements (airships, warforged, lightning rail). Dark Sun is something very different, and we felt it was time to show the breadth of what’s possible in the game, just what a broad swathe D&D’s kind of fantasy can cover.

Wizards of the Coast: For those players who may never have played Dark Sun in its earlier inception, can you give us a rundown of this world? How would you describe Dark Sun encapsulated, and what sets it uniquely apart from other settings?

James Wyatt: Dark Sun is a sort of post-apocalyptic fantasy, a world that’s been blasted and ravaged by out-of-control magic. The arcane magic of the world draws its power from the life force of things around it, and if it’s not wielded carefully, it can transform nearby plant life into ash and drain other living creatures of their vitality. That’s why the world is a desert, its civilizations concentrated in a handful of city-states ruled by evil sorcerer-kings and its wilderness haunted by marauding nomadic bands.

The gods of the setting are absent or dead, replaced by elemental spirits tied to the ancient primordials. Shamans and other primal characters draw on the forces of sun, sand, wind, and precious rain. Wizards practice their magic in secret or openly serve the sorcerer-kings. And psionic power is more common than on other worlds -- which is handy, since this setting will come out a few months after Player’s Handbook 3, which introduces the psionic power source.

Wizards of the Coast: How is Dark Sun being conceptualized for 4th Edition? What is being retained about the setting, and what might be added, altered, or deleted? Are there significant events in store, such as with Forgotten Realms and the Spellplague, or a broader retcon of the entire setting?

James Wyatt: Our goal with the setting was to cleave as close to the original boxed set as possible while still allowing as many D&D options as we could and making the setting ideal for 4th Edition play. We’re in the process of re-releasing Troy Denning’s excellent Prism Pentad series of novels, and we didn’t want readers to come away from those books and look at the campaign setting and not recognize it as the same world. So we tried to capture the essence of the original Dark Sun boxed set while ensuring that the Prism Pentad novels could be one possible way things turn out.

Wizards of the Coast: Are there elements of Dark Sun that you determined would be especially suited for the 4th Edition rule set? Conversely, are there elements of the setting that you understand will be a challenge to incorporate into 4E?

James Wyatt: As I mentioned before, I think the overall tone of Dark Sun makes it fit really well in the 4th Edition environment. In many ways, it’s really a perfect fit. Even the idea that characters might wear less armor or rely less on gear in general is easy to implement in the current rules set.

Wizards of the Coast: Can you give us a hint of what kinds of challenges and monsters unique to this setting will be in store for adventuring parties?

James Wyatt: Well, I can tell you for one thing that Rich and his team worked hard to make sure Dark Sun continued to feel like a place where the most dangerous enemy you face might be the world itself. It’s a brutal, harsh environment, and if that’s the kind of game you want to play, you’ll have ways to make survival beyond the walls of the city-states an adventure in itself. Beyond that -- nomadic elf raiders, cannibal halflings, hunting packs of thri-kreen, the deadly sorcerer-kings and their templars, braxats, silt wyrms, The Dragon …. Oh, and I’m told that Rich managed to make the belgoi’s game mechanics actually work well in the game.

Wizards of the Coast: And for the parties themselves, can you tell us what we might look forward to with Dark Sun character concepts and designs? How will, say, a Dark Sun fighter stand apart from a Forgotten Realms or Eberron fighter?

James Wyatt: One of the things I’m most excited about with the new setting addresses this question, but I don’t want to talk too much about it. Suffice it to say, at this point, that a Dark Sun fighter has a whole set of options available to him that aren’t (yet) available to other D&D characters. These options will add a whole new dimension to Dark Sun player characters, both in terms of what they can do within the rules of the game and in terms of fleshing them out as people in the world.


Thanks to Bill and James! Be sure to check our Gen Con page for ongoing coverage of the convention, and find out what’s happening with Dungeons & Dragons!

Dark Sun is my favorite D&D world, but I don't have much hope for the 4th edition rulebooks. WotC had a Dragon with a 3e version & they fucked it all up.

[J. R. Scherer]

Dark Sun is my favorite D&D world, but I don't have much hope for the 4th edition rulebooks. WotC had a Dragon with a 3e version & they fucked it all up.

I don't remember seeing an official 3E Dark Sun supplement myself. I would think that Dark Sun's Dragon in 4E would be very similar to Orcus, Demogorgon, or Ashardalon in power level, but with that certain Dark Sun flavor I love the Dark Sun setting myself. Some of my buddies and my favorite gaming moments come from the Dark Sun setting.

I'm hoping that the one after Dark Sun will be Spelljammer. I love me some Giff, Bionoids, and Gammaroids.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2118/2358367104_0b59b3a930.jpg?v=0

[Scott Wegener]

You are now my sworn enemy! :mad:

Only West End Games' D6 Star Wars RPG is a good Star Wars RPG. ;)

Fuck yes, Son.

The D20 versions of SW, even that much improved Saga rules, pale in comparison.

While it could use an update the WED D6 system is the best I've ever played. Hands down. We're trying to adapt it for an Atomic Robo RPG.

Anyone want some D&D 4E books CHEAP? I went in thinking this would be a fun opportunity to try D&D. I didn't like it. I don't know if its fantasy RPGs that I don't like anymore, or the 4E rules. We're giving the new Pathfinder a try in a few weeks. I guess that will answer the question.

[J. R. Scherer]

Anyone want some D&D 4E books CHEAP?

Whatchu got?

[TheTravis!]

Travis, have you used the Monster Builder beta yet? As a monster database, it kicks the hell out of the Encounter Builder.

Yeah, I've been playing with it a bit. The Encounter Builder and Compendium actually have a little bit more for content, but I've been using all three of them to build my campaign, and it's been working really well. Between the online tools, and my recent adoption of Dungeon Tiles, I'm setting up campaigns quicker, and having more fun doing it, then I have in years. :)

[TheTravis!]

Fuck yes, Son.

The D20 versions of SW, even that much improved Saga rules, pale in comparison.

While it could use an update the WED D6 system is the best I've ever played. Hands down. We're trying to adapt it for an Atomic Robo RPG.

Anyone want some D&D 4E books CHEAP? I went in thinking this would be a fun opportunity to try D&D. I didn't like it. I don't know if its fantasy RPGs that I don't like anymore, or the 4E rules. We're giving the new Pathfinder a try in a few weeks. I guess that will answer the question.

If you have any Dungeon Tiles, I'll happily take those off of your hands.

[TheTravis!]

I'm hoping that the one after Dark Sun will be Spelljammer. I love me some Giff, Bionoids, and Gammaroids.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2118/2358367104_0b59b3a930.jpg?v=0

I miss Wichlight Marauders myself.

[Scott Wegener]

@ J.R.: The core book set (DM Guide, PHB, Monster Manual), PHB2, Dungeon Delves, the Player's Guide to Eberron, and the Eberron Campaign Guide.


If you have any Dungeon Tiles, I'll happily take those off of your hands.

Sorry no tiles.

[TheTravis!]

@ J.R.: The core book set (DM Guide, PHB, Monster Manual), PHB2, Dungeon Delves, and the Player's Guide to Eberron.



Sorry no tiles.

I need Dungeon Delve, actually.

[The Crushtacean]

If anyone is interested in the Dragon Annual, the D&D website is lying. It is not releasing next month- it is, in fact, releasing alongside Adventurer's Vault 2 this week.

[Scott Wegener]

I need Dungeon Delve, actually.

Cool. I'm leaving for NYC today and I'll be back next Monday.

drop me a PM.

[J. R. Scherer]

I need Dungeon Delve, actually.

That's the only one out of the bunch that I need as well, but you wuz first. :(

[J. R. Scherer]

If anyone is interested in the Dragon Annual, the D&D website is lying. It is not releasing next month- it is, in fact, releasing alongside Adventurer's Vault 2 this week.

I'll probably pick up both at some point (probably used or something), but for some reason I'm not really excited about either. I imagine it's because I already have access to all of the articles for the Dragon Annual, but I do much prefer having an actual, physical book to read; but in the case of AV2 I really don't know why. I loved AV1.

[Scott Wegener]

God I love Craigslist.com. SO i've got $250 worth of D&D books up for sale at $85. The only emails I've gotten so far is asking if I could go lower. =D

No. No I can't. :)

God I can't wait to start Pathfinder next week.

[TheTravis!]

God I love Craigslist.com. SO i've got $250 worth of D&D books up for sale at $85. The only emails I've gotten so far is asking if I could go lower. =D

No. No I can't. :)

God I can't wait to start Pathfinder next week.

You should eBay that shit, man!

Oh, and PM me and tell me how much you want for Dungeon Delve.

You have any modules?

[Scott Wegener]

You should eBay that shit, man!

Oh, and PM me and tell me how much you want for Dungeon Delve.

You have any modules?

Actually I put the whole lot back up on Amazon where it all came from in the first place. The PHB2 sold in about 5 minutes.

Fuck you Craigslist. LOL

(I'll PM you about the Delve book.)

EDIT: The Eberron books sold while I was sleeping, haha. Yay Amazon.

[J. R. Scherer]

We had our first player character death in our last game. It's a party of four defenders and two strikers with no healing capability, so really, it was bound to happen eventually.

[Scott Wegener]

We had our first player character death in our last game. It's a party of four defenders and two strikers with no healing capability, so really, it was bound to happen eventually.

Wow I didn't think it was even possibly to die in 4E. We had one game where all the Players were dropped but one in TWO Encounters. Yet somehow we all came out of it alive.

If there is a formula for Player death though, you guys have definitely stumbled upon it. =D

[J. R. Scherer]

Wow I didn't think it was even possibly to die in 4E. We had one game where all the Players were dropped but one in TWO Encounters. Yet somehow we all came out of it alive.

If there is a formula for Player death though, you guys have definitely stumbled upon it. =D

It's very possible for characters to be killed in 4E games. It's just a lot harder for them to die easily, which is a good thing. A low-level wizard should be fucked up badly by a critical hit but it shouldn't be a guaranteed death sentence. There's a lot of tension when the players start failing their death saving throws as well.

[J. R. Scherer]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4pod/20090828

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/newsite/pod_lg.jpg
Penny Arcade/PvP Ep1 Series 3

Once more around the table! The folks at Penny Arcade, PvP, and Wil Wheaton sit down with Wizards of the Coast for a session of 4th Edition D&D.

The Group

Let's take this opportunity to introduce the group:

* Mike Krahulik (Gabe from Penny Arcade): Jim Darkmagic of the New Hampshire Darkmagics
* Jerry Holkins (Tycho from Penny Arcade): Omin Dran, CEO of Acquisitions Incorporated
* Scott Kurtz (from PvP): Binwin Bronzebottom
* Wil Wheaton: "Al"
* Chris Perkins (R&D): Your humble Dungeon Master

It's Fallcrest, midwinter, and snow has settled over everything. Acquisitions Incorporated has been holed up in their favorite sanctuary, The Silver Unicorn, enjoying the warmth of a fire. All is calm… until they meet their old acquaintance, Nathan Farringray—looking troubled and with a tale of woe that can only be solved by Acquisitions Inc.

Over at Five League House, Farringray's companion, Barton has been keeping on eye on local bandits. A number of merchant wagons have been besieged in recent days, and the trade route has become jeopardized.

Acquisitions Inc. agrees to perform this small favor, checking on Farringray's friend… with the assumption that adventure will soon find them!

Warning: This podcast contains strong language.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/podcast_papvp3_1th.jpg (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/podcast_papvp3_1.jpg)

[TheTravis!]

I love those podcasts so very much.

So my players are almost 6th level now. And they have learned to hate orcs more than anything else in the world. I continue to love 4th Edition in a way that would make 2007 me want to stab 2009 me in the dick.

[Scott Wegener]

Yeah I'm still on the fence.

I know I like Pathfinder better, but I'm beginning to suspect that what I really didn't like about 4E was that the first DM hated it (being in the old-school 3.E camp) and the second DM is just sort of a power gaming tool (who drank the kool-aid and is a 4E fanatic).

I do love the Penny Arcade D&D podcasts -they're a perfect example of how the system almost doesn't matter.

Have you guys checked out the D&D podcast on majorspoilers.com? It's really funny.

[artimoff]

old-school 3.E.




:rofl:

[J. R. Scherer]

I think that the 4E Assassin is looking pretty damned cool so far.

[Shawn_Kehoe]

I love those podcasts so very much.

So my players are almost 6th level now. And they have learned to hate orcs more than anything else in the world. I continue to love 4th Edition in a way that would make 2007 me want to stab 2009 me in the dick.

2007 you was an angry, angry dude. Married life and At-Will powers have mellowed you out. ;)

[Scott Wegener]

Married life and At-Will powers have mellowed you out. ;)

Haha, that happens to all of us.

At-Will powers is one of the things I really like about 4E.

[Generic Poster]

Sadly, married life and age eventually turn what was an at-will power into a 1 x daily, then 1 x weekly power.

[Scott Wegener]

Sadly, married life and age eventually turn what was an at-will power into a 1 x daily, then 1 x weekly power.

LOL

I got my wife Wii Active a few months ago and suddenly she's like +12 Sexy and those Weeklies are At Wills again. You should give it a try.

[Generic Poster]

LOL

I got my wife Wii Active a few months ago and suddenly she's like +12 Sexy and those Weeklies are At Wills again. You should give it a try.

Children - area effect - all at will powers are nullified so long as child is conscious

Daddy, can I have some more juice??

[Generic Poster]

Man, I thought the above was high-larious. :(

[J. R. Scherer]

I continue to love 4th Edition in a way that would make 2007 me want to stab 2009 me in the dick.

Yeah, reading your few dozen or so posts in this thread is pretty funny now.

[Shawn_Kehoe]

October's nearing, which means I'll be pulling double time between my D&D campaign and a "Dread" one-shot ... trading in the dice for Jenga!

Much as I love DMing D&D, I'd really like to get a Call of Cthulhu or Trail of Cthulhu game running.

[Scott Wegener]

Man, I thought the above was high-larious. :(

To us married with children types it was. :D

I find that a potion of Benadryl makes kids sleepy and provides the adults with a opportunities for AOOs on one another.

"C'mere kiddo . . .you look itchy, take this!"

[Scott Wegener]

So has anyone given PATHFINDER a look? I started a thread a few weeks ago, but it died a horrible BenBo death. :P

We started running PF a month or so ago and I am loving it. I enjoyed 4E but I had enough issues with it that I could take it or leave it. Our PF game was last night and I am DYING for it to be next Thursday right now so I can play again.

I went into both 4E and PF with no real previous D&D experience or preconceptions. I could see why WoTC/Hasbro did what they did with their product, and why Paizo Publishing has chosen to go in the direction that they have. So I don't want to spark a "My game is better than your game!" war. For me, PF turned out to be what I like more, but I say that in the context that I still like 4E. I'm just really enjoying this thread and want to expand the discussion.

[Shawn_Kehoe]

I'm glad that the 3.5 adherents have a source for new material. I'm not interested in dm'ing 3.5 anymore, although I would play it.

It's just a pity that circumstances have conspired to keep the very talented people at Paizo from producing material for the current edition of the game.


So has anyone given PATHFINDER a look? I started a thread a few weeks ago, but it died a horrible BenBo death. :P

We started running PF a month or so ago and I am loving it. I enjoyed 4E but I had enough issues with it that I could take it or leave it. Our PF game was last night and I am DYING for it to be next Thursday right now so I can play again.

I went into both 4E and PF with no real previous D&D experience or preconceptions. I could see why WoTC/Hasbro did what they did with their product, and why Paizo Publishing has chosen to go in the direction that they have. So I don't want to spark a "My game is better than your game!" war. For me, PF turned out to be what I like more, but I say that in the context that I still like 4E. I'm just really enjoying this thread and want to expand the discussion.

[Scott Wegener]

I'm glad that the 3.5 adherents have a source for new material. I'm not interested in dm'ing 3.5 anymore, although I would play it.

It's just a pity that circumstances have conspired to keep the very talented people at Paizo from producing material for the current edition of the game.

Yeah its sort of a mixed blessing. The new OGL (which is called something else) makes it very hard for 3rd party publishers to make 4E product. On the upside though, we got Pathfinder as a direct result.

Sticking with the up side: You've now got two similar, yet definitely unique systems for playing a fantasy RPG. The old school RPers have something that is very familiar to them but a clear improvement on what came before it, while Hasbro may be able to turn a whole new generation on to the hobby. I mean lets face it, 4E is more like WoW that the official WoW RPG (in terms of the game mechanics). I don't know how successful they'll be at pulling in MMORPG players to the pen & paper equivalent, but hopefully they will and by doing so breath new life into it.

[artimoff]

So has anyone given PATHFINDER a look? I started a thread a few weeks ago, but it died a horrible BenBo death. :P

I've given it a quick look, but I see no reason to change from 3.5 it it. Heck, one of our DM's still has us play 1e & even basic sometimes.

Our group of 7 or so guys in their late 30's early 40's like to stick to the basic D&D ideas of just using tolkinesque fantasy & old myths in our D&D. No half fiendish or half celestial creatures. The only dire creature is a wolf. We use very few other suplements other than the 3 core books. The idea of "at will" "powers" seem very foriegn to what we want as D&D players.

[J. R. Scherer]

Our group of 7 or so guys in their late 30's early 40's like to stick to the basic D&D ideas of just using tolkinesque fantasy & old myths in our D&D. No half fiendish or half celestial creatures. The only dire creature is a wolf. We use very few other suplements other than the 3 core books.
I see no reason you couldn't do that in any game system.


The idea of "at will" "powers" seem very foriegn to what we want as D&D players.
I guess I don't understand. Why is it hard to understand the concept of 'at-will' abilities? A warrior has a kickass melee attack he can do whenever he wants that's different from anyone else's and a wizard could throw out magic missile as often as he likes instead of just once a day. It's more like fantasy fiction, including Tolkien, this way.

My group of players is of the same age range as yours and have been playing D&D for at least two decades, in some cases 25+ years, and we've all been able to embrace 4E as, thus far, it lets us do in D&D what we always wanted to do before but weren't able to because of the system limitations.

[Scott Wegener]

I've given it a quick look, but I see no reason to change from 3.5 it it. Heck, one of our DM's still has us play 1e & even basic sometimes.


Reasons to upgrade: 8yrs of D&D 3.X have provided us with a laundry lists of things that could be better. Dead levels on certain character class progressions, or the rules for Grapple for example. PF is just the next evolution of the 3.X gaming system. Shit, PF was written by a lot of the guys who designed 3.0 and 3.5.

You should check out the 3.5 Sanctuary website/podcast though (http://rcjrproductions.com/35ps/index.php). A hardcore group of 3.5 players who started the podcast right between the time Dragon Magazine was cancelled and 4E was announced. They post religiously once a week for 30 minutes and it's a VERY interesting perspective on what the transition from a world where everyone played 3.5 to the split between 4E, Pathfinder, and 3.5ers.

J.R. -as someone who plays both I can see where Artimoff is coming from. Though I agree with you. The mechanics are always secondary to what the Players and DM bring to the table.

PS: What exactly is tolkienesque about any version of D&D? True, they both have swords and orcs, butI don't ever remember reading about Gandalf hucking fireballs at anyone. Also, Tolkien would have never thought up anything as RETARDED as the vancian magic system -for which 3,5, 4E, and PF all deserve a big fat RPG FAIL. ;D LOL

[TheTravis!]

Man, I thought the above was high-larious. :(

I LOL'd. Truly.


Yeah, reading your few dozen or so posts in this thread is pretty funny now.

I am completely honest about being way off base. But 4e is not at all what I had been expecting. Quite the contrary.


I don't know how successful they'll be at pulling in MMORPG players to the pen & paper equivalent, but hopefully they will and by doing so breath new life into it.

I don't know about that, either, but I will tell you that in my regular Tuesday night game I have two players who have been playing since 1st edition, two who started with third edition, and tewo who had never played before 4e. And all of us pretty much are in love with the 4e system. My group even loves skill challenges. LOVES them. They don't want to just go on a quick trip through the woods, they want to know if they can do a skill challenge to get through faster, and avoid trouble, and find the best shelters, etc.

[artimoff]

Reasons to upgrade: 8yrs of D&D 3.X have provided us with a laundry lists of things that could be better. Dead levels on certain character class progressions,

See, right there. That's where I stopped. Dead levels? what are they? Levels where we don't get some new toy? None of us care that much about of having some new superpower to fight the bad guys with. Or some combat move we might want to do. We say we want to do it, the DM sets the DC & we roll a die. Simple.

I don't want Pathfinder to fail, I'd love to see it do real well. Were just not going to spend more time & money learning a slightly new system.

[TheTravis!]

See, right there. That's where I stopped. Dead levels? what are they? Levels where we don't get some new toy? None of us care that much about of having some new superpower to fight the bad guys with. Or some combat move we might want to do. We say we want to do it, the DM sets the DC & we roll a die. Simple.

I don't want Pathfinder to fail, I'd love to see it do real well. Were just not going to spend more time & money learning a slightly new system.

I think if you're sticking more or less to core 3.5, you're okay. But the power creep in some of the supplements really unbalanced the game for a lot of people.

[J. R. Scherer]

See, right there. That's where I stopped. Dead levels? what are they? Levels where we don't get some new toy? None of us care that much about of having some new superpower to fight the bad guys with. Or some combat move we might want to do. We say we want to do it, the DM sets the DC & we roll a die. Simple.

Why even play D&D if gaining levels and new abilities doesn't matter to you? There are a lot of systems with more streamlined play if all you want to do is describe your actions and roll dice.

[Scott Wegener]

I don't know about that, either, but I will tell you that in my regular Tuesday night game I have two players who have been playing since 1st edition, two who started with third edition, and tewo who had never played before 4e. And all of us pretty much are in love with the 4e system.

Oh I'm not saying 4E was designed exclusively for WoW players. I'm saying that they looked at this amazingly successful game and asked themselves "how can we get a piece of that?" Everything about the descriptions, the terms, and how they railroad you into taking this character build or that one is straight out of WoW. I would have done the same thing. Like I said, I think 4E is a solid game. But even the game designers themselves have said repeatedly that the emphasis is on the table-top war-gaming, and I think that's pretty clear in the mechanics.

Which is not to say RPing has to suffer for any reason at all. It's all what you bring to the table.

In my group we've got 6 guys including the DM. I'm the only one with no 3.5 experience. 2 of the players love 4E and want to burn all their 3.5 books, and 2 of them hate 4E with a passion. I was sort of in the middle and hated by all for liking both, LOL

I will say that as a company WoTC promised a long list of improvements and new fangled game features and delivered on only one or two. That really sucks.

Skill challenges are really cool for non-RPing situations. I don't like how they can be used to avoid RPing though. Like, I could try and talk this guard into accepting this bribe and letting me in the back gate, or I could just do a skill challenge. Again though, that's something you can avoid with the right DM.



See, right there. That's where I stopped. Dead levels? what are they? Levels where we don't get some new toy?

I'm so glad I wasted my time writing all that then.

And a dead level is one where you level up and nothing happens. What's the fucking point of that?


I think if you're sticking more or less to core 3.5, you're okay. But the power creep in some of the supplements really unbalanced the game for a lot of people.

Agreed.


Why even play D&D if gaining levels and new abilities doesn't matter to you? There are a lot of systems with more streamlined play if all you want to do is describe your actions and roll dice.

Exactly. I prefer low level games myself, but there's still something fun in watching your character get better as he progresses.

[PatrickA]

Skill challenges are really cool for non-RPing situations. I don't like how they can be used to avoid RPing though. Like, I could try and talk this guard into accepting this bribe and letting me in the back gate, or I could just do a skill challenge. Again though, that's something you can avoid with the right DM.


I agree with this. I like the skill challenges a lot, but not when they take the place of someone really playing their character.

This really only happens, in my experience, with some of the speech type challenges.

[TheTravis!]

I agree with this. I like the skill challenges a lot, but not when they take the place of someone really playing their character.

This really only happens, in my experience, with some of the speech type challenges.

Not all players are comfortable talking in character, though. Some are, and I find that they happily incoprorate that into their skill challenges. Those that aren't as eager to crack out their summer stock training at the game table like the ability to be able to socially interact in charcter while not having to exert themsxelves in real life. And I have no problem with that. Different players have different styles.

[artimoff]

I'm so glad I wasted my time writing all that then.

And a dead level is one where you level up and nothing happens. What's the fucking point of that?



You still get more hit points, skill points & saving throws & spellcasters get new spells.


You didn't waste your time, I read the rest of your post after I posted. :)

[artimoff]

I think if you're sticking more or less to core 3.5, you're okay. But the power creep in some of the supplements really unbalanced the game for a lot of people.

Yeah, My 3e DM & I bought alot of 3e stuff when it came out & we decided really quickly that most of the crunchy bits were best left out other than monsters & adventures.

[J. R. Scherer]

Skill challenges are really cool for non-RPing situations. I don't like how they can be used to avoid RPing though. Like, I could try and talk this guard into accepting this bribe and letting me in the back gate, or I could just do a skill challenge. Again though, that's something you can avoid with the right DM.

Ideally, skill challenges should encourage more roleplaying and work pretty seamlessly with it. Now instead of a single kickass/shitty skill roll on something like bluff, diplomacy, or intimidate, deciding the outcome of a noncombat encounter it means that the player is just doing very well/pretty crappy so far in the skill challenge. Good RPing should give a bonus to some rolls here and there, too.

[Generic Poster]

Anybody ever play Runequest? I liked that system a lot.

[J. R. Scherer]

Anybody ever play Runequest? I liked that system a lot.

Is that the one that had table after table of critical hit charts, or am I thinking of something else?

[Generic Poster]

Is that the one that had table after table of critical hit charts, or am I thinking of something else?

Kinda - your hits did hit specific locations, so you had to keep track of damage to limbs and shit like that.

[TheTravis!]

Kinda - your hits did hit specific locations, so you had to keep track of damage to limbs and shit like that.

I've played games like that before. They're fun once in a while, but I prefer a more casual, fluid system for my weekly games.

[Generic Poster]

I've played games like that before. They're fun once in a while, but I prefer a more casual, fluid system for my weekly games.

In some ways, it's a more casual system. All skills are straight percentages. Everytime you successfully use a skill within a game week, you get to roll to see if you advance that skill. No keeping track of experience points or any of that jazz. Also, you never really gained any additional hit points, so the game was much more Robert E. Howard-y feeling. You could have a sheet full of 100% skills, but if enough low-level scumbags ganged up on you, you were going to go down.

GURPS was a good system too.

[Shawn_Kehoe]

Is that the one that had table after table of critical hit charts, or am I thinking of something else?

You might be thinking of Rolemaster, which leaned heavily towards simulation-style mechanics.

[The Hodag]

You might be thinking of Rolemaster, which leaned heavily towards simulation-style mechanics.

I think so. Runequest used a version of (or maybe originated) the Basic Roleplaying System that Chaosium also used for the original Call of Cthulhu. I played just a touch of it as a kid, and I remember finding it tremendously more intuitive than D&D or most of the other systems.

[Generic Poster]

I think so. Runequest used a version of (or maybe originated) the Basic Roleplaying System that Chaosium also used for the original Call of Cthulhu. I played just a touch of it as a kid, and I remember finding it tremendously more intuitive than D&D or most of the other systems.

Yeah, Chaosium had a number of games that used it, including the CoC game.

[J. R. Scherer]

GURPS was a good system too.

I liked GURPS quite a bit, but combat is a bit too lethal for my tastes, especially if it's Supers. GURPS has some of the very best sourcebooks around.

[J. R. Scherer]

You might be thinking of Rolemaster, which leaned heavily towards simulation-style mechanics.

I think you're right.

[Generic Poster]

I think you're right.

Yeah - Rolemaster had a Middle Earth RPG based on their system too. Every single individual spell had it's own table you had to look up. Ugh.

[Good & Evil]

Yeah - Rolemaster had a Middle Earth RPG based on their system too. Every single individual spell had it's own table you had to look up. Ugh.

Just had a Rolemaster flashback. Took all weekend just to make a character. Shudder.

[Zulithe]

Anyone pick up the DMG 2? It's getting some rave reviews. If you're a Dungeon Master, look into it. I'm hoping to pick one up this weekend.

I was gonna order it + Monster Manual 2 on amazon but for some reason amazon has been sold out of MM2 for well over a week. Nearly two weeks, if not more. Kinda odd.

[Shawn_Kehoe]

Anyone pick up the DMG 2? It's getting some rave reviews. If you're a Dungeon Master, look into it. I'm hoping to pick one up this weekend.

I was gonna order it + Monster Manual 2 on amazon but for some reason amazon has been sold out of MM2 for well over a week. Nearly two weeks, if not more. Kinda odd.

Just got mine tonight. Looks pretty cool.

[J. R. Scherer]

Anyone pick up the DMG 2? It's getting some rave reviews. If you're a Dungeon Master, look into it. I'm hoping to pick one up this weekend.

I'm digging it quite a bit. I've been making up our roster of PCs as companion characters for the sessions when the players can't make it.

[TheTravis!]

So I was up at 1 AM last night (thanks, insomnia), and came up with an awesome conversion to get The Shackled City to 4e. I'm almost co0mpletely re-tooling the whole thing, adding a Final Fantasyesque flair, and bringing in Gra'azt as an additional bad guy. I'm so excited about it I could poop.

[J. R. Scherer]

So I was up at 1 AM last night (thanks, insomnia), and came up with an awesome conversion to get The Shackled City to 4e. I'm almost co0mpletely re-tooling the whole thing, adding a Final Fantasyesque flair, and bringing in Gra'azt as an additional bad guy. I'm so excited about it I could poop.

I love Graz'zt. He was a great villain in the Gord the Rogue books. Recent artwork for him has been rather lacking, though I do love Wayne Reynolds' version of him.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/Mog_Elffoe/RPG/Grazzt.jpg

[Scott Wegener]

I love Graz'zt. He was a great villain in the Gord the Rogue books. Recent artwork for him has been rather lacking, though I do love Wayne Reynolds' version of him.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/Mog_Elffoe/RPG/Grazzt.jpg

I love just about anything Wayne Reynolds does. That was what actually drew me to look at pathfinder.

"Hey wait, this crappy little company's book looks better than my D&D books, whats up with that . . .?"

[The Crushtacean]

I love Graz'zt. He was a great villain in the Gord the Rogue books. Recent artwork for him has been rather lacking, though I do love Wayne Reynolds' version of him.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/Mog_Elffoe/RPG/Grazzt.jpg

I remember first reading about him in The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth. God, I loved that module. And yeah, I haven't thought about them for a long time, but the Gord the Rogue books were pretty damn cool.

[J. R. Scherer]

Got to play a couple of D&D games over the weekend. Finally got our characters up to level 10 in our heroic campaign and also played an epic tier 1-shot with characters at 30th level. The epic stuf was fun, but our DM didn't quite understand that epic was just that and that 30th level characters were as good as it got. He had a single 30th level ancient red dragon go up against a party of 5 30th level characters and was pissy that it was rather easy. At 30th level the characters are supposed to be a hair's breadth away from being gods themselves. Not sure what he'd expected, really. If we were 21st to 25th level it probably would've been a tough fight, but at the apex level and with the dragon not fighting intelligently (staying in melee rather than flying and strafing or otherwise attacking from a distance, not having any helpers or even a single magic item, or an escape plan, etc.) it's not going to be a contest. Ah, well, it was still pretty cool to see just how effective high level characters can be.

[The Human Target]

Yeah I've really liked both 4E DMGs. I think they have a lot of helpful stuff for any GM, even if you aren't playing 4E or DnD at all. Especially if you're a new DM.

[TheTravis!]

Got to play a couple of D&D games over the weekend. Finally got our characters up to level 10 in our heroic campaign and also played an epic tier 1-shot with characters at 30th level. The epic stuf was fun, but our DM didn't quite understand that epic was just that and that 30th level characters were as good as it got. He had a single 30th level ancient red dragon go up against a party of 5 30th level characters and was pissy that it was rather easy. At 30th level the characters are supposed to be a hair's breadth away from being gods themselves. Not sure what he'd expected, really. If we were 21st to 25th level it probably would've been a tough fight, but at the apex level and with the dragon not fighting intelligently (staying in melee rather than flying and strafing or otherwise attacking from a distance, not having any helpers or even a single magic item, or an escape plan, etc.) it's not going to be a contest. Ah, well, it was still pretty cool to see just how effective high level characters can be.

I find that the encounter builder tool is invaluable for avoiding that sort of mistake.

My players just hit 7th level, and are currently having a blast cleaning out an abandoned keep being used as a HQ by a thieves' guild. I think I should stop including traps in my dungeon designs, because the elf Avenger has a passive Perception of, like, 30, and spots them without even trying.

[The Human Target]

Methinks that elf avenger needs to go sleep with the aboleths.

[TheTravis!]

Methinks that elf avenger needs to go sleep with the aboleths.

Nah. He's made of liquid awesome. Two weeks ago he made a running leap for 30 feet into a charge that killed a major bad guy. It was very cool.

[The Human Target]

Just take an eye out then. -5 to Perception. :)

[J. R. Scherer]

Picked up the Primal Power (http://www.amazon.com/Primal-Power-Supplement-Mike-Mearls/dp/0786950234) book today. I've only skimmed the Barbarian and Warden so far, but there's some really damned cool stuff in there.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512tkfblHQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg

[TheTravis!]

Picked up the Primal Power (http://www.amazon.com/Primal-Power-Supplement-Mike-Mearls/dp/0786950234) book today. I've only skimmed the Barbarian and Warden so far, but there's some really damned cool stuff in there.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512tkfblHQL._SL500_AA240_.jpg

Pre-ordered that and the newest Dungeon Tiles from B&N yesterday. Looking forward to having it in hand.

I'm having a little bit of a conundrum as to the plot of my game. I'm afraid that if I go in the direction we're heading, the overall narrative will lose momentum.

[J. R. Scherer]

I'm having a little bit of a conundrum as to the plot of my game. I'm afraid that if I go in the direction we're heading, the overall narrative will lose momentum.

Sometimes that is for the best as every now and then the players will simply have more fun doing their own thing or following up on other plot threads than following the 'meta-campaign'.

Any details you can share?

[TheTravis!]

Sometimes that is for the best as every now and then the players will simply have more fun doing their own thing or following up on other plot threads than following the 'meta-campaign'.

Any details you can share?

How much time do you have?

The overall campaign is about the heroes trying to stop a primordial cult from freeing The Thunder Serpent and unleashing it on the World. The first encounter the characters had in the campaign was on the road to a small city, where their caravan was attacked by orcs with lighting-shaped scars on their faces, who attacked in the midst of a thunderstorm. Since then, the party has fought these orcs several times. The orcs completely destroyed a small village, and the party has sworn revenge.

The group has also heard about an Orc Chieftan (a recurring villian in my campaign world) who is trying to unite all of the orc tribes in the northern mountains and create an actual orc homeland. The party is sure that he is behind the Stormfury orcs they have been fighting. But he isn't.

I have a scenario set up where the party fights a bunch of orcs who are not affiliated with the cult they seek. This draws the attention of the orc chieftan, who sets them straight, and points them at the headquarters of the cult.

I'm just afraid that they're going to feel that killing a bunch of orcs who weren't part of "the problem" is a bit of a "gotcha".

At any rate, right now they're on a side quest to destroy the thieves' guild that the party's bard used to run with, and they seem to be having fun with that.

Thanks for listening to my rambling. I know that nothing is less interesting than hearing about someone else's campaign.

[The Human Target]

How much time do you have?

The overall campaign is about the heroes trying to stop a primordial cult from freeing The Thunder Serpent and unleashing it on the World. The first encounter the characters had in the campaign was on the road to a small city, where their caravan was attacked by orcs with lighting-shaped scars on their faces, who attacked in the midst of a thunderstorm. Since then, the party has fought these orcs several times. The orcs completely destroyed a small village, and the party has sworn revenge.

The group has also heard about an Orc Chieftan (a recurring villian in my campaign world) who is trying to unite all of the orc tribes in the northern mountains and create an actual orc homeland. The party is sure that he is behind the Stormfury orcs they have been fighting. But he isn't.

I have a scenario set up where the party fights a bunch of orcs who are not affiliated with the cult they seek. This draws the attention of the orc chieftan, who sets them straight, and points them at the headquarters of the cult.

I'm just afraid that they're going to feel that killing a bunch of orcs who weren't part of "the problem" is a bit of a "gotcha".

At any rate, right now they're on a side quest to destroy the thieves' guild that the party's bard used to run with, and they seem to be having fun with that.

Thanks for listening to my rambling. I know that nothing is less interesting than hearing about someone else's campaign.

I'm gonna call you DM Night Shyamalan.

I don't personally think thats too much of a gotcha.

So are the orcs that they kill going to be the chieftains orcs? But then he decides not to care much and sends the PCs to stop the cult that is probably also a thorn in his side?

[TheTravis!]

So are the orcs that they kill going to be the chieftains orcs? But then he decides not to care much and sends the PCs to stop the cult that is probably also a thorn in his side?

Basically.

[The Crushtacean]

I'm gonna call you DM Night Shyamalan.

I don't personally think thats too much of a gotcha.

So are the orcs that they kill going to be the chieftains orcs? But then he decides not to care much and sends the PCs to stop the cult that is probably also a thorn in his side?

Have the thieves guild be working with the chieftains orcs somehow, buying loot from them to resell in the city or something. That way the players can follow their nose as they wish, they bump into the chieftains orcs that you want, and your story goes on without you having to lead them anywhere.

[The Human Target]

Basically.

I like any adventure that has the PCs working with morally questionable allies.

I may suggest setting it up in such a way that the PCs would be the ones to initiate violence. Maybe have the chieftains orcs be on their way to find the PCs and send them a message from their boss. So the PCs could jump the gun and go hacking, or play it cool and maybe not kill off these non-cultists orcs.

[The Human Target]

Plus it would be a fun adventure hook for later. The chieftain could have some dirt on the PCs. He could threaten to narc them out by spreading the word to the rest of the surrounding area that they helped him consolidate his power. Then send them on a mission for him.

Or actually he could just narc them out to ruin their reputation at a critical time for funsies..

[J. R. Scherer]

I'm just afraid that they're going to feel that killing a bunch of orcs who weren't part of "the problem" is a bit of a "gotcha".


You could always insinuate that this orc is in on it, but maybe he just isn't actually the whole thing. That way the PCs still feel like they're on the right track.

[Shawn_Kehoe]

Let's talk dice!

I primarily use three sets of dice:

1) An old 7-piece Chessex set my parents gave me for Christmas when I started into D&D in the early '90's.
2) A 7-piece set of official Gen Con 2006 dice, which I believe Crystal Caste produced.
3) A 10-piece set I bought last year - no idea who made it.

Additionally, I use a nice metal d20 from GenCon and a set of 4 metal d6's my former roommate made me for Christmas. These aren't the only dice in my home, but they are the "D&D dice."

Some links of note:

GameScience dice are supposed to be highly accurate. I've just heard about them in recent months, but I'll have to check if they are attending BGG con in November. The D-Total sounds cool if impractical: http://www.gamescience.com/

Chessex Pound-of-Dice I think this will be a friend's Christmas present this year. - http://www.chessex.com/Dice/poundofdice.htm

[The Crushtacean]

Let's talk dice!


GameScience dice are supposed to be highly accurate. I've just heard about them in recent months, but I'll have to check if they are attending BGG con in November. The D-Total sounds cool if impractical: http://www.gamescience.com/


Gamescience dice are actually really old, the company just disappeared for a while and has only just reappeared. They first appeared in the early to mid 80s, if I remember right, invented by Lou Zocchi, the guy who created the hundred-sided die. Their design moved gaming dice on from the shitty plastic blobs they were before, and helped create a whole new industry, so I'm glad to see them back again. And yes, they are very well balanced and accurate.

[The Human Target]

Anyone have a link to some good form fillable blank 4th edition power card pdfs?

[TheTravis!]

New innovation for me this week. Assembling my dungeon tiles ahead of time and attactching them to a piece of foamboard with scotch tape. Works awesome. Thanks, Chris Perkins!

[J. R. Scherer]

Let's talk dice!


A few years back I worked at a comic/game store and when he went out of business he had a blowout sale the final day he was open. The last 10 minutes of that day I bought every single piece of dice left. So now I have a 15 lb bucket of dice I lug around when it's gaming time. (I still don't have enough d20s, though.)



Anyone have a link to some good form fillable blank 4th edition power card pdfs?
Yeah, I have a link or two. I'll post them when I get home from work.



New innovation for me this week. Assembling my dungeon tiles ahead of time and attactching them to a piece of foamboard with scotch tape. Works awesome. Thanks, Chris Perkins!
That is probably the only way I would be able to make use of my Dungeon Tiles. They're too much of a pain in the ass to use on the fly. What's the going rate for foamboard these days?

[J. R. Scherer]

I find that the encounter builder tool is invaluable for avoiding that sort of mistake.

Apparently, it's not his mistake at all that he didn't prepare or understand the system. Right now it's all 4E D&D's fault that 5 30th level characters could easily defeat a 30th level solo red dragon in a wide open area with dragon just standing and fighting in melee rather than doing badass (or smart) dragon things, like flying outside of the fighters' range, or using magic items, or having helpers, or at least an interesting place to fight, etc. No, clearly, the system is to blame for a single badly planned encounter and half of my group needs 'a break' from 4E now. >sigh<

To be fair the dungeon crawl nature of Pyramid of Shadows for our regular game has definitely worn us down quite a bit.




Anyone have a link to some good form fillable blank 4th edition power card pdfs?

This one's pretty neat and is pretty customizable (and is now more Italian than I remember it being before...):
http://www.dnditalia.it/pcg

Here's a link from EN World as well.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan-creations-house-rules/220953-making-your-own-power-cards.html

Magic Set Editor rules all, of course.
http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/download

[J. R. Scherer]

Anyone have a link to some good form fillable blank 4th edition power card pdfs?

I do have some pdf files I could send directly to you as well. I don't have the links to where I'd orignally found them, though.

I really do wish that WotC's Character Builder would include flavor text on the power cards it generates.

[TheTravis!]

Apparently, it's not his mistake at all that he didn't prepare or understand the system. Right now it's all 4E D&D's fault that 5 30th level characters could easily defeat a 30th level solo red dragon in a wide open area with dragon just standing and fighting in melee rather than doing badass (or smart) dragon things, like flying outside of the fighters' range, or using magic items, or having helpers, or at least an interesting place to fight, etc. No, clearly, the system is to blame for a single badly planned encounter and half of my group needs 'a break' from 4E now. >sigh<


He's a dork, and you can tell him I said so. An ancient red dragon at Level 30 is a standard encounter for 5 30th level characters. Without actually using tactics and playing the critter smart, most good groups of PCs wouldn't even bother cracking out dailies.

[DungeonMasterJim]

Anybody here playing in the Living Forgotten Realms campaign?

Not as fun as a home campaign but a suitable replacement for those of us not able to play in home campaigns.

DM Jim

[J. R. Scherer]

He's a dork, and you can tell him I said so. An ancient red dragon at Level 30 is a standard encounter for 5 30th level characters. Without actually using tactics and playing the critter smart, most good groups of PCs wouldn't even bother cracking out dailies.

The idea of scale was lost on him, as far as just what epic characters are capable of doing and what it means to be epic.

He is currently reading the Malazan Book of The Fallen series, though, so I'm going to tell him that Anomander Rake was 26th level. That should put everything into perspective.

[J. R. Scherer]

Anybody here playing in the Living Forgotten Realms campaign?

Not as fun as a home campaign but a suitable replacement for those of us not able to play in home campaigns.

DM Jim

I never have, but I've definitely though about it. Not sure if I quite 'get' the overall concept, though. Care to share any of your experiences?

[The Human Target]

This one's pretty neat and is pretty customizable (and is now more Italian than I remember it being before...):
http://www.dnditalia.it/pcg

Here's a link from EN World as well.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan-creations-house-rules/220953-making-your-own-power-cards.html

Magic Set Editor rules all, of course.
http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/download

Hey thanks a lot.

Basically my crew mostly loves 4E, I wanna run Star Wars. So we're cobbling together some homebrew 4e SW classes and seeing how that goes.

[The Human Target]

The idea of scale was lost on him, as far as just what epic characters are capable of doing and what it means to be epic.

He is currently reading the Malazan Book of The Fallen series, though, so I'm going to tell him that Anomander Rake was 26th level. That should put everything into perspective.

Knowing exactly what this means makes me so sad and so happy at the same time.

[TheTravis!]

Anybody here playing in the Living Forgotten Realms campaign?

Not as fun as a home campaign but a suitable replacement for those of us not able to play in home campaigns.

DM Jim

Not currently. I did Living Greyhawk, back in the days of 3e.

I would love to join RPGA, just because their exclusives make me drool. But I only really have time to run my home campaign.


Basically my crew mostly loves 4E, I wanna run Star Wars. So we're cobbling together some homebrew 4e SW classes and seeing how that goes.

I'm lucky in that my entire group adores 4e. In some cases it's all they've ever played. My current home campaign is nearing 8th level. Next year I plan to start a second campaign, adapting Red Hand of Doom to 4e.