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SeanC
08-13-2007, 04:45 AM
One of the topics that comes up most often when I am at work is how fantastic Ennis' run on 'Punisher' has been. I doubt think there are a lot of people that are willing to dispute the fact that Ennis' run might very well be the definitive one for the character. That also leads to a problem (and another popular topic of conversation at work), "What happens when he decided to leave the title?"

Ennis' should end the character. If Marvel were 'smart' they'd let Ennis' write the final word on the character. It could be a major event and a fantastic contrast to all of the 'superheroic' events which have occured over the last decade or so. Ennis is definitely the one with enough love and respect for the character (not to mention talent) to write the story of how Frank Castle dies. Again, everyone here knows how utterly brilliant it would be if given the chance, especially based on such one-shots as Tyger, Tyger and The Cell.

I never believed that Marvel would allow this to happen but then I realized something grand. As time goes on it will become harder for people to believe that Frank Castle fought in Vietnam and is still running around, still able to do what he does. Well, if Ennis is allowed to 'end' the character there is still the chance to release stories from across Frank Castles' "career." War stories, stories from the eighties and nineties. There's rich history there, as Ennis as proven.

What do you think? :mistrust:

Akira
08-13-2007, 04:47 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Punisher:_The_End


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a2/Punisher-The_end.jpg
Cover to "The Punisher: The End". Art by Richard Corben

Publisher MAX Comics imprint of Marvel Comics
Format one-shot
Publication dates June 2004
Main character(s) Punisher
Creative team
Writer(s) Garth Ennis
Artist(s) Richard Corben
Colorist(s) Lee Loughridge

Kefky
08-13-2007, 04:49 AM
Ennis doesn't own the punisher.

SeanC
08-13-2007, 04:55 AM
Ennis doesn't own the punisher.

He does............. emotionally.

Brian Boru
08-13-2007, 05:05 AM
Once a title has run its course,

the prevailing strategy seems to be...

take the character out of circulation for at least a year.

The longer, the better.

That's unlikely to happen with Punisher. Restarts usually sell strongly to begin with, but often run out of steam by the 10th issue. Punisher has his War Journal as well... but that appeals to a different (=younger) audience - the one that doesn't mind seeing him run around in that ridiculous costume. Ennis' Punisher is for ADULTS ONLY. In fact, most readers under 21 would have a hard time figuring it out... but that's Ennis for you. Marvel's given him total freedom to run where-ever he wants to go with it. and I'm sure the remuneration is worth the effort. Why should he leave? Because he doesn't need the cash anymore?

Kefky
08-13-2007, 05:10 AM
He does............. emotionally.

That doesn't exist in work-for-hire.

Patrick J
08-13-2007, 05:36 AM
From a creative standpoint and looking at it in the short term, you're probably right.

However, I'm sure many people might've felt the same way about Daredevil back in the 80's when Frank Miller was writing his definitive run with the character. "Let Frank end Daredevil!" And if they'd done that then we would never have gotten the definitive Daredevil work of Bendis and Maleev.

There are no bad characters, there are no characters that are "used up," only bad writers and bad stories. And it'd be irresponsible to deny future, potentially great creators the opportunity to write The Punisher should they feel they have a good story.

This opinion of course only applies to A-List, or High-Profile characters. There are some C, D and Z list, paint-by-the-numbers, *insert character here* type characters (supporting characters mostly) that can be killed for sake of a good story and its okay IMHO.

Jef UK
08-13-2007, 05:37 AM
Sure, Punisher MAX should end, but the idea of retiring the character is rediculous.

Ryudo
08-13-2007, 05:38 AM
That is a great idea for creator-owned stuff, Sean. Not so much for company-owned characters. Ennis is doing a great job, yes, but you never know after he leaves and someone else comes on the book how awesome it could be.

Jerome Gibbons
08-13-2007, 05:46 AM
Yeah, I've thought that a few times. At least let Punisher MAX end with Ennis' run.



But, end of the day, I think I'd still like to see some other writers take a crack at Punisher MAX. Still, they really ought to do something about Frank's ties to Vietnam. It's getting a bit silly now.

SeanC
08-13-2007, 05:47 AM
But, end of the day, I think I'd still like to see some other writers take a crack at Punisher MAX. Still, they really ought to do something about Frank's ties to Vietnam. It's getting a bit silly now.

You think he should break-up with Vietnam? But they were so good together. What about all those memories!

Jef UK
08-13-2007, 05:52 AM
You think he should break-up with Vietnam? But they were so good together. What about all those memories!

We'll get a retcon origin someday. Just like they did with Iron Man in Extremis. While seemingly essential to the character we know and love (including Ennis' depiction of him) you don't need Vietnam as much as you need the massacre of his family in Central Park. I would imagine he'll eventually have an orgin closer to his Ultimate one, which turns him into a cop so as to give him some of the same training, I guess.

Patrick J
08-13-2007, 05:54 AM
Still, they really ought to do something about Frank's ties to Vietnam. It's getting a bit silly now.

I dunno about that. I've seen some guys in their 80's that are in fantastic shape and could easily kick my ass if they wanted to, not that that'd be the hardest thing to do but still.

You gotta figure a guy like Frank, a total zealot completely dedicated to his mission probably lives an incredibly spartan lifestyle, doesn't drink, doesn't smoke, doesn't eat fatty foods unless some kind of undercover mission calls for it. The dude stays in impeccable shape.

Plus I'm amused by the idea of a crazy septuagenarian running around on killing missions of revenge.

Still, it does have potential to become very silly in the future.

I'd hate to see it happen, and I'd be peeved it it did, and going completely against what I said in my previous post on this matter, maybe they'll have to kill off Frank Castle one day just keep that character pure and tied to his roots. They could always introduce a new Punisher, a new man with a similar background; military vet (of the Iraq war) loses family and goes batshit insane, decides to kill all the criminals.

Jerome Gibbons
08-13-2007, 06:00 AM
I dunno about that. I've seen some guys in their 80's that are in fantastic shape and could easily kick my ass if they wanted to, not that that'd be the hardest thing to do but still.

You gotta figure a guy like Frank, a total zealot completely dedicated to his mission probably lives an incredibly spartan lifestyle, doesn't drink, doesn't smoke, doesn't eat fatty foods unless some kind of undercover mission calls for it. The dude stays in impeccable shape.

Plus I'm amused by the idea of a crazy septuagenarian running around on killing missions of revenge.

Still, it does have potential to become very silly in the future.

I'd hate to see it happen, and I'd be peeved it it did, and going completely against what I said in my previous post on this matter, maybe they'll have to kill off Frank Castle one day just keep that character pure and tied to his roots. They could always introduce a new Punisher, a new man with a similar background; military vet (of the Iraq war) loses family and goes batshit insane, decides to kill all the criminals.

Eh, I have a real hard time believing it. Frank's body is brutalized all the time. He gets shot and stabbed in almost every arc of Punisher MAX. And apparently, he's been going like this for over thirty years. It's a bit much for me.

I think they should probably pull his origin up to Desert Storm. I think Frank works best when he's already older and has had a lot of experience, putting him in his mid-to-late forties works for me.

Fourthman
08-13-2007, 06:23 AM
In the Barracuda arc Frank presents a fake ID that has a birthdate of 1969. Even if that's not his birth year, how could he use that as a fake birthdate, hope to get away with it, and still be expected to have been of fighting age for Viet Nam?

Akira
08-13-2007, 06:24 AM
At some point, didn't they retcon his past (maybe in BORN) to say that he lied about his age to enlist in Vietnam under 18?

Mister Mets
08-13-2007, 06:24 AM
One of the topics that comes up most often when I am at work is how fantastic Ennis' run on 'Punisher' has been. I doubt think there are a lot of people that are willing to dispute the fact that Ennis' run might very well be the definitive one for the character. That also leads to a problem (and another popular topic of conversation at work), "What happens when he decided to leave the title?"

Ennis' should end the character. If Marvel were 'smart' they'd let Ennis' write the final word on the character. It could be a major event and a fantastic contrast to all of the 'superheroic' events which have occured over the last decade or so. Ennis is definitely the one with enough love and respect for the character (not to mention talent) to write the story of how Frank Castle dies. Again, everyone here knows how utterly brilliant it would be if given the chance, especially based on such one-shots as Tyger, Tyger and The Cell.

I never believed that Marvel would allow this to happen but then I realized something grand. As time goes on it will become harder for people to believe that Frank Castle fought in Vietnam and is still running around, still able to do what he does. Well, if Ennis is allowed to 'end' the character there is still the chance to release stories from across Frank Castles' "career." War stories, stories from the eighties and nineties. There's rich history there, as Ennis as proven.

What do you think? :mistrust:
You make a decent case for there being a potential for great stories in the future just set in the 80s and 90s, but I think this robs future generations of stories of the Punisher interacting with the Marvel U, and that's not worth it.

Ennis has kinda provided two endings for the character 'The End" and "The Cell"

Brian Boru
08-13-2007, 06:26 AM
But, end of the day, I think I'd still like to see some other writers take a crack at Punisher MAX. Still, they really ought to do something about Frank's ties to Vietnam. It's getting a bit silly now.

Not if you set the stories in the 1980s.

In the upcoming movie, Frank should be written as a Vietnam vet. It defined him.

Xander Boune
08-13-2007, 06:28 AM
At some point, didn't they retcon his past (maybe in BORN) to say that he lied about his age to enlist in Vietnam under 18?

I don't remember if he lied about his age, but I do remember that his first tour was in '68. If he was 18 at the time, he's 57 now, which is still believable given his depictions in Max Punisher.

Akira
08-13-2007, 06:32 AM
I don't remember if he lied about his age, but I do remember that his first tour was in '68. If he was 18 at the time, he's 57 now, which is still believable given his depictions in Max Punisher.

I totally agree, and I like the idea of a cragy, old Frank; but I could've sworn that there was an attempt to cover their asses and de-age him just a little bit.

Jef UK
08-13-2007, 06:34 AM
I don't remember if he lied about his age, but I do remember that his first tour was in '68. If he was 18 at the time, he's 57 now, which is still believable given his depictions in Max Punisher.


I totally agree, and I like the idea of a cragy, old Frank; but I could've sworn that there was an attempt to cover their asses and de-age him just a little bit.

In MAX, at least, they seem to depict him as his correct age. I think I remember an Ennis interview where he said as much.

Amos Moses
08-13-2007, 06:36 AM
At some point, didn't they retcon his past (maybe in BORN) to say that he lied about his age to enlist in Vietnam under 18?

Frank was an Officer in BORN, so I don't see how he could have enlisted at 18.

Icaruss
08-13-2007, 06:38 AM
Punisher MAX will improbably end with him. I mean, in a perfect world. But the Punisher character will probably never dissapear.

Amos Moses
08-13-2007, 06:38 AM
On another note, when Ennis does leave Punisher (only when he leaves this life as well if I have my way) He should write a Nick Fury book. His Nick Fury in "Mother Russia" was the best depiction of the character I've ever seen.

Icaruss
08-13-2007, 06:40 AM
On another note, when Ennis does leave Punisher (only when he leaves this life as well if I have my way) He should write a Nick Fury book. His Nick Fury in "Mother Russia" was the best depiction of the character I've ever seen.

Um...

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FGK5B6Z5L._AA240_.jpg

Amos Moses
08-13-2007, 06:44 AM
Um...

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FGK5B6Z5L._AA240_.jpg

AWESOME!

Kefky
08-13-2007, 06:48 AM
I must be the only person in the universe who thought that mini was shit, aside from the beautiful art. I should add that to the unpopular opinions thread! :lol:

Fourthman
08-13-2007, 06:50 AM
I must be the only person in the universe who thought that mini was shit, aside from the beautiful art. I should add that to the unpopular opinions thread! :lol:

You're not the only one, Clooney was going to play him and the rumor is that either he or his people read the mini and the deal was off.

Mister Mets
08-13-2007, 06:53 AM
You're not the only one, Clooney was going to play him and the rumor is that either he or his people read the mini and the deal was off.
Seems to have worked out in the end. I'm happier with the guy they have for the Iron Man movie.



I must be the only person in the universe who thought that mini was shit, aside from the beautiful art. I should add that to the unpopular opinions thread! :lol:
I loved the mini series, but I don't think you're alone in that opinion.

Kefky
08-13-2007, 06:53 AM
You're not the only one, Clooney was going to play him and the rumor is that either he or his people read the mini and the deal was off.

Yea, I know that story. Doesn't surprise me in the least since Clooney hates attention-whoring.

Kefky
08-13-2007, 06:55 AM
Seems to have worked out in the end. I'm happier with the guy they have for the Iron Man movie.

Jackson is ultimate Fury is definitely win, but ya gotta admit Clooney would've made a cool MU Fury.

DeleriumTremens
08-13-2007, 05:51 PM
I think you need him tied to the Vietnam war. That is at least until we get a little bit of time between us and the last couple years of the current Iraq war. Moving him up to the Gulf War, or anything else more current wouldn't make him the same character he is now. In part it was the awfulness of the war that defined him.

Ben
08-13-2007, 05:55 PM
We'll get a retcon origin someday.It's not gonna be hard to replace Vietnam. Maybe Bush is a Punisher fan and one of those comic book readers that hates real-time references in all his old comics.

Kefky
08-13-2007, 06:02 PM
Maybe they should just retcon that he stole some of Fury's infinity formula 10 years ago, and he's been drinking it ever since then...

Patrick J
08-13-2007, 07:22 PM
I must be the only person in the universe who thought that mini was shit, aside from the beautiful art. I should add that to the unpopular opinions thread! :lol:

Add me to that list. I usually like Ennis' work but I thought it was over-the-top and a great disservice to the Nick Fury character. I'm pretty sure its not recognized as canon though, not that it'd matter one way or another.

Marcdachamp
08-13-2007, 07:35 PM
Maybe they should just retcon that he stole some of Fury's infinity formula 10 years ago, and he's been drinking it ever since then...

Oooooh, I like that.

The Human Target
08-13-2007, 07:38 PM
I thought they shoulda shelved John Constantine after Carey's final arc.

Marvel is never going to shelve the Punisher, so I'd recommend just stop reading it.

Adrian B AWESOME
08-13-2007, 07:39 PM
Fraction's version of the Punisher is a completely different one that Ennis', and it's pretty great.

The Zevad
08-13-2007, 07:40 PM
I like the infinity formula idea and also wasn't it show in BORN that some demonic force was pulling Frank's strings? I think it greatly hinted that it's keeping Frank in his prime to do more killing. Hell it might it now so subtle reference to the Punisher/Archangel thing. Didn't demons make Frank kill himself in that? Hmmm. Hell you could even say that rejuvenated him and made him young again when the Angels brought him back. Frank did make a brief mention of it in "Welcome back Frank." So eh. Whatever.

Marcdachamp
08-13-2007, 07:44 PM
I like the infinity formula idea and also wasn't it show in BORN that some demonic force was pulling Frank's strings? I think it greatly hinted that it's keeping Frank in his prime to do more killing. Hell it might it now so subtle reference to the Punisher/Archangel thing. Didn't demons make Frank kill himself in that? Hmmm. Hell you could even say that rejuvenated him and made him young again when the Angels brought him back. Frank did make a brief mention of it in "Welcome back Frank." So eh. Whatever.

I like it, but Marvel references that storyline about as much as they bring up the clone saga.

The Human Target
08-13-2007, 07:49 PM
So was Frank Castle a zygote when he signed up to fight in Nam? :)