Bendis killing off characters *SPOILERS*

[CyberGhostface]

As much as I think Bendis is a great writer, it is getting tiring of how he likes to kill off established villains to give new characters credibility.

First there was Carnage, in New Avengers in which he's torn in half in a matter of seconds by Sentry. Since BEndis has made it no big secret that he hates Carnage, this seemed to be thumbing his nose at the character's fans. It wasn't even a pivotal part in the story and wasn't even referenced at all later. It was just "Hey, look how cool the Sentry is."

Instead of killing him off (which sooner or later someone is bound to bring him back with little to no explanation as to how it occured) why not reinvent the character and make him interesting again? Bendis has shown that he's good at writing serial killers in the past.

****LATEST NEW AVENGERS SPOILERS****



And now in his latest issue Owl, one of Daredevil's earliest villains, is blown away by the Hood. Bendis did a really good job rebuilding the Owl in his DD run, making him really scary and fucked up, and to see him get kicked to the wayside like this to give another new character credibility just really bothered me.

Am I the only one who feels this way?

[Ben]

You ever try and kill a real owl with bullets? Never works.

[Albert]

As much as I think Bendis is a great writer, it is getting tiring of how he likes to kill off established villains to give new characters credibility.

First there was Carnage, in New Avengers in which he's torn in half in a matter of seconds by Sentry. Since BEndis has made it no big secret that he hates Carnage, this seemed to be thumbing his nose at the character's fans. It wasn't even a pivotal part in the story and wasn't even referenced at all later. It was just "Hey, look how cool the Sentry is."

Instead of killing him off (which sooner or later someone is bound to bring him back with little to no explanation as to how it occured) why not reinvent the character and make him interesting again? Bendis has shown that he's good at writing serial killers in the past.

****LATEST NEW AVENGERS SPOILERS****



And now in his latest issue Owl, one of Daredevil's earliest villains, is blown away by the Hood. Bendis did a really good job rebuilding the Owl in his DD run, making him really scary and fucked up, and to see him get kicked to the wayside like this to give another new character credibility just really bothered me.

Am I the only one who feels this way?

We don't know he's dead, he just got shot.

And what's the alternative here? Bendis kills a character that no one cares about and hasn't been rebuilt, people would complain that it didn't mean anything. Bendis kills a character that someone else has been using lately, people would be pissed. I think he absolutely did the right thing.

[Icaruss]

I don't think he's dead.

[Foolish Mortal]

As much as I think Bendis is a great writer, it is getting tiring of how he likes to kill off established villains to give new characters credibility.

First there was Carnage, in New Avengers in which he's torn in half in a matter of seconds by Sentry. Since BEndis has made it no big secret that he hates Carnage, this seemed to be thumbing his nose at the character's fans.
Carnage has fans? :shock:

I never liked Carnage, ever. He was a one-note, lameass character. Good riddance.

[Ryudo]

Carnage had fans?

EDIT: DAMN! Beaten.

[Cth]

Didn't the one panel show part of his head missing?

Then again, in a comic where Dethlok (a dead guy who can still walk around) is featured, what's a little death?

Besides, Owl was always a joke and will always be a joke. Good riddance.

[Dreg]

Bendis usually builds other characters up by breaking others down. Think of him as a professional wrestling promoter, like Vince MacMahon. He has what he considers to be his next big characters (Spider-Woman, Cage, The Hood), and in order to build heat behind them, he feeds other characters to them. "Jobbers," if you will, who get killed or beaten up to make others look good in comparison. It's a sound idea, but it does have the added side effect of making fans of the other characters a bit resentful.

In the end, though, sometimes building that heat is necessary. Hating a character is probably better than not caring about them one way or the other.

[Tom Burgos]

As much as I think Bendis is a great writer, it is getting tiring of how he likes to kill off established villains to give new characters credibility.

First there was Carnage, in New Avengers in which he's torn in half in a matter of seconds by Sentry. Since BEndis has made it no big secret that he hates Carnage, this seemed to be thumbing his nose at the character's fans. It wasn't even a pivotal part in the story and wasn't even referenced at all later. It was just "Hey, look how cool the Sentry is."

Instead of killing him off (which sooner or later someone is bound to bring him back with little to no explanation as to how it occured) why not reinvent the character and make him interesting again? Bendis has shown that he's good at writing serial killers in the past.

****LATEST NEW AVENGERS SPOILERS****



And now in his latest issue Owl, one of Daredevil's earliest villains, is blown away by the Hood. Bendis did a really good job rebuilding the Owl in his DD run, making him really scary and fucked up, and to see him get kicked to the wayside like this to give another new character credibility just really bothered me.

Am I the only one who feels this way?

Haunt?

[Ray G.]

The two examples you gave are villains. And frankly, villains who didn't have a huge fanbase. Carnage and Owl were generally regarded as lesser versions of more popular villains. Plus, villains always come back. :)

A lot of people complained for a while about Bendis killing off too many heroes. But as we've seen, in the case of Hawkeye and Ultimate Gwen, he usually has a plan.

[Flonk]

As much as I think Bendis is a great writer, it is getting tiring of how he likes to kill off established villains to give new characters credibility.

First there was Carnage, in New Avengers in which he's torn in half in a matter of seconds by Sentry. Since BEndis has made it no big secret that he hates Carnage, this seemed to be thumbing his nose at the character's fans. It wasn't even a pivotal part in the story and wasn't even referenced at all later. It was just "Hey, look how cool the Sentry is."

Instead of killing him off (which sooner or later someone is bound to bring him back with little to no explanation as to how it occured) why not reinvent the character and make him interesting again? Bendis has shown that he's good at writing serial killers in the past.

****LATEST NEW AVENGERS SPOILERS****



And now in his latest issue Owl, one of Daredevil's earliest villains, is blown away by the Hood. Bendis did a really good job rebuilding the Owl in his DD run, making him really scary and fucked up, and to see him get kicked to the wayside like this to give another new character credibility just really bothered me.

Am I the only one who feels this way?

But The Sentry and The Hood are not new characters. :?

[Matt O'Keefe]

Wait.... there are Carnage fans?

[ds9]

yes

[Albert]

Carnage has fans? :shock:

I never liked Carnage, ever. He was a one-note, lameass character. Good riddance.


Carnage had fans?


Wait.... there are Carnage fans?

I'm forwarding all these posts to the Carnage fan club!

[CyberGhostface]

Carnage does have fans. Not everyone shares the same opinion.

Also, I didn't like Owl until Bendis started writing him.

And no, the Sentry and the Hood aren't new but he is pretty much reintroducing them at the same time.

[Matt O'Keefe]

I'm forwarding all these posts to the Carnage fan club!

Two more people who'll hate me:surrend:

[Forrest]

Doesn't someone want to point out that this is a slap in the face of whatever group is being picked on now?

...bird villain lovers. I don't know.

[SAVETHEB]

i really find myself saying, "who cares"

bendis was the only guy in the last five years to use any of those characters. and he used them well. its only right he should be able to kill them. i mean, please, that scene where the sentry killed carnage was bad ass. and when was the last time carnage was in a scene that cool?

[CyberGhostface]

i really find myself saying, "who cares"

bendis was the only guy in the last five years to use any of those characters. and he used them well. its only right he should be able to kill them. i mean, please, that scene where the sentry killed carnage was bad ass. and when was the last time carnage was in a scene that cool?


Carnage was used in the Venom VS Carnage miniseries which came out around the same year as his New Avengers appearence, and Bendis didn't even write him correctly to begin with, getting him mixed up with the Ultimate version.

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

As much as I think Bendis is a great writer, it is getting tiring of how he likes to kill off established villains to give new characters credibility.

First there was Carnage, in New Avengers in which he's torn in half in a matter of seconds by Sentry. Since BEndis has made it no big secret that he hates Carnage, this seemed to be thumbing his nose at the character's fans. It wasn't even a pivotal part in the story and wasn't even referenced at all later. It was just "Hey, look how cool the Sentry is."

Instead of killing him off (which sooner or later someone is bound to bring him back with little to no explanation as to how it occured) why not reinvent the character and make him interesting again? Bendis has shown that he's good at writing serial killers in the past.

****LATEST NEW AVENGERS SPOILERS****



And now in his latest issue Owl, one of Daredevil's earliest villains, is blown away by the Hood. Bendis did a really good job rebuilding the Owl in his DD run, making him really scary and fucked up, and to see him get kicked to the wayside like this to give another new character credibility just really bothered me.

Am I the only one who feels this way?

Believe it or not, I'm a genuine Owl fan. I picked up the Owl/ Dr. Octopus War from Spectacular Spider-man (Ock cripples Owl) and DD #301-303 (Owl's formula starts to affect his body and turns him more avian but that that was quickly dropped) by D.G. Chichester. Also I thought that Spiderman/ Daredevil (Jenkins and Winslade) was excellent and far too few people read it. That story broke out classic DD villains like Gladiator, Owl, Stilt-man, and Copperhead. By the end, though Owl had been moved into a position to be a blank slate. But the next time we saw him he was really, really slimy and quite the lowlife. And he just kept falling further and further until New Avengers #33. But its comics so anything is possible so I don't make too much of this latest development. A little disheartening because I really liked the previous stories that I mentioned and would have hoped a different outcome years later. Did anyone else read any of these comics I mentioned?

[A.Huerta]

Carnage sucks, plain and simple. Bendis did us a favor.

[WinstonWolf]

Hmmm, was there a reason in the story that the OWL got killed?

[Relaunched]

But as we've seen, in the case of Hawkeye and Ultimate Gwen, he usually has a plan.

What was the plan with Hawkeye other than to "break the internet in half"? His death was lame - runs inside to change into his thousand-arrow-costume and is in the battle for 1 minute before he gets all blowns up. Reappears in House of M and now is where Echo's sweaty old costume.

I'm no fan of Carnage but I can understand the one fan out there being angry. Writers often try to force a character into the food chain by simply having them smack down another character.

Sentry is one of the worst characters out there. The orginal mini started off great with some confused dude realizing he was once a great hero. And now Marvel seems to be the only ones out there calling Sentry the Earth's greatest champion.

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

I don't think he's dead.

Its comics so anything is possible.

[tdaniel]

I did not think for one minute that Owl was dispensed of without purpose. Firts the double page spread
Second the 'cautionary tale" line serves the story
And last having the Hood show his dominance builds him into an instant threat, because those of us (me included) now know that this dude is not to be messed with, shoots the Hood to the top of the pecking order so to speak.

And Carnage? Well, he'll be back and used in various other titles - I think it's the writer's perogative in this case.

[WinstonWolf]

It seems the Sentry doesn't have as many fans as he used to. He's probably the most powerful character that Marvel has. I liked the mini a lot.

[CyberGhostface]

Carnage sucks, plain and simple. Bendis did us a favor.

Well, you certainly changed my mind.:surrend:

[ds9]

Carnage sucks, plain and simple. Bendis did us a favor.No he didnt.

[ds9]

It seems the Sentry doesn't have as many fans as he used to. He's probably the most powerful character that Marvel has. I liked the mini a lot.
I think Marvel took too long to utilize the character.

[A.Huerta]

No he didnt.

You just solidified my point. :lol:

[Relaunched]

C'mon, Silver Surfer turned Carnage's living suit into metal. Then he shows up one day ina cell with no explanation.

Then Venom EATS the suit. And suddenly once again Carnage is back without explanantion.

Ol' Cletus is gonna be just fine.

[WinstonWolf]

Oh, here's a question though. I like Brian K. Vaughn a lot. From what I read of his writing from the Hood series, it was good. Don't think I ever really read a bad Vaughn, there's always something I like. But um, why exactly is this character supposedly being spruced up in NEW AVENGERS? Wouldn't it make more sense in a book like Daredevil or Criminal, or some other crime oriented book. I mean, the Hood doesn't actually have any super powers right? Seems a bit weird, is he going to be taking on the New Avengers?

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

Carnage has fans? :shock:

I never liked Carnage, ever. He was a one-note, lameass character. Good riddance.

Even in my youth I disliked the Carnage character. Carnage was a wanton killer and Spider-man would never be able to sort him out for good because he doesn't work that way. Dead end stories.

BUT, when Carnage turned up in NA I loved it. When he came up out of the shadows to menace Foggy, Cage, and Spider-woman (was she there?) the sense of threat was very real. I loved Cage's comment about how difficult it must be for Spider-man to fight that type of thing so often. And Sentry immediately showed new and old readers that he meant business by dealing with Carnage once and for all (until next time). That was Carnage's finest moment. I bought the Bowen mini bust because of that issue! :surrend:

Owl however was pretty low on the totem pole and pretty much on the way out so I don't think it did a lot to elevate the Hood to new readers. But there is more to come.

I think surviving an encounter with Wolverine will do a lot for Hood's rep in comics and with readers.

[Jet]

*coughcoughAlphaFlightcoughcough*

[A.Huerta]

Oh, here's a question though. I like Brian K. Vaughn a lot. From what I read of his writing from the Hood series, it was good. Don't think I ever really read a bad Vaughn, there's always something I like. But um, why exactly is this character supposedly being spruced up in NEW AVENGERS? Wouldn't it make more sense in a book like Daredevil or Criminal, or some other crime oriented book. I mean, the Hood doesn't actually have any super powers right? Seems a bit weird, is he going to be taking on the New Avengers?

No one can answer your questions, just yet. Ask them when weve read the full story.

[ds9]

Carnage was killed just to make Sentry look like a badass.

[Dreg]

Owl however was pretty low on the totem pole and pretty much on the way out so I don't think it did a lot to elevate the Hood to new readers. But there is more to come.

I think surviving an encounter with Wolverine will do a lot for Hood's rep in comics and with readers.

That'd be true if Wolverine had much of a rep himself these days. Bendis has gone to that well so often in his stories that it's just about dry.

[Raphael J]

I actually thought it was a very interesting decision. Bendis obviously had a lot of love for the character, seeing as he built him up and, at least in the eyes of a person who had very little interaction with the character, made him a genuine villain. Seeing him take a hit this way was a very cool way to give the Hood a boost, as well as introduce a new status quo as far as the villains of New York are concerned. If anything, I'd imagine it was hard for Bendis to kill one of his more valued characters for the sake of the story/plot development/character development.

[ds9]

Its the easiest way to make the Hood gain a reputation in the criminal community.

[Pat Shatner]

Believe it or not, I'm a genuine Owl fan. I picked up the Owl/ Dr. Octopus War from Spectacular Spider-man (Ock cripples Owl) and DD #301-303 (Owl's formula starts to affect his body and turns him more avian but that that was quickly dropped) by D.G. Chichester. Also I thought that Spiderman/ Daredevil (Jenkins and Winslade) was excellent and far too few people read it. That story broke out classic DD villains like Gladiator, Owl, Stilt-man, and Copperhead. By the end, though Owl had been moved into a position to be a blank slate. But the next time we saw him he was really, really slimy and quite the lowlife. And he just kept falling further and further until New Avengers #33. But its comics so anything is possible so I don't make too much of this latest development. A little disheartening because I really liked the previous stories that I mentioned and would have hoped a different outcome years later. Did anyone else read any of these comics I mentioned?

That Spider-Man/Daredevil mini was really excellent. Still memorable and enjoyable today.

I feel for the carnage fans, I really do. I wish Ben Reilly/clone saga would get some serious treatment in the 616 again but I have no expectation that we'll ever see that. Carnage was done for; he was a past his expiration date, hidden in the back of the fridge leftover from the 90's and no one really wanted a piece. And hey, at least Bendis gave him a spectacularly memorable death. He's become the punchline of Sentry jokes, so it's not like he's been forgotten.

I don't know whether to think The Owl is officially dead or not, but that was a pretty badass action scene and I didn't see it coming. I'm so stoked about The Hood's return and look forward to seeing how it plays out.

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

Didn't the one panel show part of his head missing?

Then again, in a comic where Dethlok (a dead guy who can still walk around) is featured, what's a little death?

Besides, Owl was always a joke and will always be a joke. Good riddance.

Read Jenkins' Spiderman/ Daredevil. But depending on what you have read though Owl wasn't about much. Just saying. Not everyone can be the top dog, someone has to be on the bottom.

[Generic Poster]

I don't read N.A., but as I recall, the Hood was just sort of a douchebag with some magic boots and a magic hood, not a criminal genius. I'm sure Bendis will explain this, though.

[Pat Shatner]

I don't read N.A., but as I recall, the Hood was just sort of a douchebag with some magic boots and a magic hood, not a criminal genius. I'm sure Bendis will explain this, though.

Yeah, that's a pretty dead on description of him, which is why I'm looking forward to seeing how Bendis turns him into the new kingpin of crime.

[Cth]

Read Jenkins' Spiderman/ Daredevil. But depending on what you have read though Owl wasn't about much. Just saying. Not everyone can be the top dog, someone has to be on the bottom.

True, I'm just saying that by and large, he's been considered a joke.

When a SHIELD agent says what he did in the issue, it's gotten pretty bad.

Like you said, he's been on a decline.

[WinstonWolf]

The Owl\Octopus war was great, Doc Ock has never been as threatening since that story.

[SAVETHEB]

Carnage was used in the Venom VS Carnage miniseries which came out around the same year as his New Avengers appearence, and Bendis didn't even write him correctly to begin with, getting him mixed up with the Ultimate version.

if i recall correctly, that series sucked

[bartleby]

Are people really still bitching about Carnage three years later?


It's really time to move on.

[SAVETHEB]

Are people really still bitching about Carnage three years later?


It's really time to move on.

i agree

[The Human Target]

He gave us Jessica Jones.


As far as I'm concerned, he can kill any fictional character he wants to.

Go ahead Bendis, kill Wolverine!

Its still a fair trade.

[scouser]

I do think that maiming and killing established characters to show great new ones are is a bad move. It can create hostility towards the new or resurgent character from the other characters fan base.But it is what Bendis has become known for. Look at what he did to Alpha Flight, he killed the whole team bar Sasquatch when he introduced the Collective! Theres also the very high chance that he will be killing Elektra off as well, now that Echo can be the resurrected ninja ex girlfriend for Matt.

[Amos Moses]

Yeah the wanton murder is not cool. But no matter how many people he kills, I'll still be more pissed about Ultimate Kraven.

I WILL NOT FORGET!

[bartleby]

No, really. Are we having this conversation again? Does anyone have anything new to say that wasn't already said when Hawkeye was killed?

[Jerome Gibbons]

I am so fucking glad that Carnage is dead. I'll always love Bendis for that.

[Andrew]

C'mon, Silver Surfer turned Carnage's living suit into metal. Then he shows up one day ina cell with no explanation.

Then Venom EATS the suit. And suddenly once again Carnage is back without explanantion.

Ol' Cletus is gonna be just fine.

Blame Howard Mackie. He wasn't typically one to pay attention to detail.

Although, there was an explanation as to how Carnage got his symbiote back. In a really fucking terrible story (again written by Howard Mackie) he went into the negative zone with Spider-Man and found another symbiote that was exactly the same as the original one that Venom ate.

Therefore, New Carnage.

[Maestro]

I LOVE Carnage. He's been my favorite villain since I first saw him. I'll always hate Bendis a little for that

[CyberGhostface]

if i recall correctly, that series sucked

The point was (and in your opinion it sucked, but others enjoyed it--it was probably one of the better symbiote stories in a while) that Carnage was still being used in the last five years before Bendis killed him off. And Carnage was written better than what Bendis did with the character.


Are people really still bitching about Carnage three years later?


It's really time to move on.

I didn't post this because of Carnage, I posted it because of the Owl. I referred to Carnage as another example of Bendis offing established characters for the sake of giving newer characters credibility.

[Andrew]

The point was (and in your opinion it sucked, but others enjoyed it--it was probably one of the better symbiote stories in a while) that Carnage was still being used in the last five years before Bendis killed him off. And Carnage was written better than what Bendis did with the character.

To be fair, the Venom vs. Carnage mini-series was the only instance of Carnage having been used in the 5 years prior to Bendis killing him off in New Avengers.

From early 2000 until late 2004, Carnage was nowhere to be seen. Then in late 2004 there was the Venom vs. Carnage mini-series, and then Bendis killed him off in New Avengers. This means that in the past 7 years, the 616 Carnage has only been in 5 comic books (Venom vs. Carnage #1-4 and New Avengers #2) so there...the Carnage haters have kind of gotten what they wanted anyway.

I love the character, but I do think that he's seen as a relic of the terrible comics era of the 1990s, and for that reason many writers shy away from using him.

Venom, on the other hand, was created in the 1980s and was written a lot better to begin with, so he gets a free pass. It's weird, but it seems to be the case.

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

Are people really still bitching about Carnage three years later?


It's really time to move on.

Sometimes taking an overexposed character and removing them from the playing field, sometimes in an editorial move where the character just disappears or other times in a big fiery exit, can be a good thing. As much as I despised Carnage dirtying up Spidey's rogues gallery, I will probably be there when he turns up again. Whereas if things had not gone the way they did in NA, I likely would have been as far away as possible.

And some writer someday will revive the Owl, perhaps even giving him a second chance due to what happened in Daredevil/ Spiderman. That's the fun of comics, you can get out of absolutely anythng. But for a character that's been on the decline for a good long while, I think this was the end of the road he built for himself. For now.

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

I am so fucking glad that Carnage is dead. I'll always love Bendis for that.

Carnage went out in spectacular fashion too showing that there's no such thing as a bad character. Any character can have a meaningful and memorable moment.

[bartleby]

Carnage went out in spectacular fashion too showing that there's no such thing as a bad character. Any character can have a meaningful and memorable moment.

That sounds like Mike Bacsik being excited about going down in baseball history for being the pitcher that gave up #756 to Barry Bonds.

[Marcdachamp]

To be fair, the Venom vs. Carnage mini-series was the only instance of Carnage having been used in the 5 years prior to Bendis killing him off in New Avengers.

Not to mention the fact that that story was kind of a mess. The continuity was terrible, and usually I can overlook that.

[Jerome Gibbons]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v24/tyrant2/NEWAVN003010_400.jpg

[Mr. Green]

Well, considering that without Bendis the owl would just be another long forgotten d-list villain, I don't think this is a big deal.

[Ryan Elliott]

It was Carnage and the Owl.


Who cares?

[The Human Target]

It was Carnage and the Owl.

Who cares?

Seemingly many people.


What if Bendis killed off Clayface and the Penguin?

[Jerome Gibbons]

Has it been stated that the Owl is dead (haven't read through the thread yet)?

[CyberGhostface]

We saw him get pumped full of lead and the next panel showed half of his head missing.

[ThisSpaceForRent]

We don't know he's dead, he just got shot.

And what's the alternative here? Bendis kills a character that no one cares about and hasn't been rebuilt, people would complain that it didn't mean anything. Bendis kills a character that someone else has been using lately, people would be pissed. I think he absolutely did the right thing.

I think his point is not every story Marvel puts out this year has to kill a character to be effective. You don't need a body count to tell a compelling, solid story.

[Ryan Elliott]

Seemingly many people.


What if Bendis killed off Clayface and the Penguin?


That'd never happen, becuase Bendis isn't at DC. :miffed:

[Jerome Gibbons]

We saw him get pumped full of lead and the next panel showed half of his head missing.

How did half of his head go missing? Did he get shot so many times his body couldn't take it and his head exploded?

[CyberGhostface]

How did half of his head go missing? Did he get shot so many times his body couldn't take it and his head exploded?

Maybe a bullet went through his head. That usually works.

[Jerome Gibbons]

Maybe a bullet went through his head. That usually works.

Did we see that happening? Him getting shot in the head, I mean.

[The Human Target]

That'd never happen, because Bendis isn't at DC. :miffed:

Dan Didio doesn't care about bald people.

[CyberGhostface]

Did we see that happening? Him getting shot in the head, I mean.

No, we didn't.

[Jerome Gibbons]

No, we didn't.

That's weird.



I'm gonna go with my 'he got shot so many times his body couldn't handle the pain and his head exploded' theory.

[The Hodag]

Believe it or not, I'm a genuine Owl fan. I picked up the Owl/ Dr. Octopus War from Spectacular Spider-man (Ock cripples Owl) and DD #301-303 (Owl's formula starts to affect his body and turns him more avian but that that was quickly dropped) by D.G. Chichester. Also I thought that Spiderman/ Daredevil (Jenkins and Winslade) was excellent and far too few people read it. That story broke out classic DD villains like Gladiator, Owl, Stilt-man, and Copperhead. By the end, though Owl had been moved into a position to be a blank slate. But the next time we saw him he was really, really slimy and quite the lowlife. And he just kept falling further and further until New Avengers #33. But its comics so anything is possible so I don't make too much of this latest development. A little disheartening because I really liked the previous stories that I mentioned and would have hoped a different outcome years later. Did anyone else read any of these comics I mentioned?

I haven't read a ton of stories with the Owl, but what I've read I've often liked. First off, dude's got a cool, unique visual. The hair's got a freak-cool going on as long as it's not overdone, and the Jack the Ripper cloak is pretty creepy when combined with the razor talons. First time I saw him was in the aforementioned Owl/Octopus gang war from Spectacular Spider-Man, and even though he ended up getting shredded by a supremely badass Doc Ock, he made for a memorable bad guy and definitely got his licks in.

More recently I was totally diggin' his appearance in Daredevil: Yellow by Loeb and Sale. Sale drew the shit out of him. In fact, I was so taken with his interpretation that I was ready to drop $200 on a commission of the character in San Diego a few years ago. Didn't happen, unfortunately. It's sorta vague in my memory, but I remember waiting in line for Sale for an hour, and even starting to talk about it with him, but Sale had a cell phone call that was some minor family thing or another that'd suddenly come up. Obviously I didn't want to be jerky and hassle him for a commission at that point, and when I talked to him the next day the commissions had filled up. He was cool, though. Made some sort of thoughtful offer to get around to it in the months to come, but I ended up holding off. Oops.

Anyway, long story short...yeah, fan of the character. Think killing him was lame, especially since he's a Stan Lee villain from back in Th' Day. And I think justifying said killing by saying his star had fallen is also lame. A character's as good as a writer makes him.

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

That sounds like Mike Bacsik being excited about going down in baseball history for being the pitcher that gave up #756 to Barry Bonds.

I don't know sports so I have absolutely no idea what you've said. I'm adrift with nothing to hold on to. Can you translate into comic-speak?

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

The more I think about it and the more I recollect on Daredevil/ Spider-man (if you don't have this look for it. Marvel get it back in print because anything Spidey sells and this will have DD in it too so it'll reach people) maybe this is a good thing. Get this Owl outta here. The slimy mgh peddling, bottom-of-the-barrel, loser Owl needs to exit stage left. Its been building and with all the enemies the character had made its surprising it didn't happen before now. Comics are flexible and I think that there is story to be derived from Jenkins' DD/ Spidey so there should be more story to tell for Leland Owlsley someday.

Not saying I'm for exterminating any and all characters they way it tended to happen in Savage Dragon for example. In this particular case, I think there may be more story to tell. Dealing with how/ why the Owl became so vicious and low end to the point that he arrived at this particular conclusion.

[The Hodag]

Well, considering that without Bendis the owl would just be another long forgotten d-list villain, I don't think this is a big deal.

'Cause...only Bendis has ever resurrected a forgotten character?

[scouser]

It was Carnage and the Owl.


Who cares?

What about Alpha Flight?

[Ryan Elliott]

What about Alpha Flight?


You have Omega Flight now.

[johnny whiplash]

Is this really a Bendis or even Marvel problem? Seems rampant in mainstream comics right now across the board. Can't get three pages deep into a DC book without a character dropping dead. Given the landscape as a whole, it's causing me as a reader to desensitize and tune out, the opposite of the desired dramatic effect. "In this issue: someone DIES!" "Well, what issue doesn't?"

A shout to fallen homies in recent years:
Captain America
Sabertooth
Superboy
A bunch of Alpha Flight
A bunch of New Warriors
Did Thanos die?
Question
Ralph Dibney
Sue Dibney
Jean Grey
Alexander Luthor
Blue Beetle
Duela Dent
Flash (a couple of them)
Jade
Maxwell Lord
Ant Man
Hawkeye (but then not)
Black Adam's family seemed to be created to die
Elektra, depending on what the Skrulls are doing with the "originals"
Banshee
Spoiler
Dr Polaris
Robin's dad
Captain Boomerang
Quasar
Goliath
Mimic in Exiles
Lightray of the New Gods
Carnage
and the Owl.

Who am I missing? I bet I'm missing a bunch.

And when you think of people keeping track of BOTH companies output, that's a lot of death in just the last 2-3 years.

[Jerome Gibbons]

Is this really a Bendis or even Marvel problem? Seems rampant in mainstream comics right now across the board. Can't get three pages deep into a DC book without a character dropping dead. Given the landscape as a whole, it's causing me as a reader to desensitize and tune out, the opposite of the desired dramatic effect. "In this issue: someone DIES!" "Well, what issue doesn't?"

Well, it depends. Death can be a pretty useful tool to jolt characters/franchises out of staleness and create interest in them.

[WinstonWolf]

Is this really a Bendis or even Marvel problem? Seems rampant in mainstream comics right now across the board. Can't get three pages deep into a DC book without a character dropping dead. Given the landscape as a whole, it's causing me as a reader to desensitize and tune out, the opposite of the desired dramatic effect. "In this issue: someone DIES!" "Well, what issue doesn't?"

A shout to fallen homies in recent years:
Captain America
Sabertooth
Superboy
A bunch of Alpha Flight
A bunch of New Warriors
Did Thanos die?
Question
Ralph Dibney
Sue Dibney
Jean Grey
Alexander Luthor
Blue Beetle
Duela Dent
Flash (a couple of them)
Jade
Maxwell Lord
Ant Man
Hawkeye (but then not)
Black Adam's family seemed to be created to die
Elektra, depending on what the Skrulls are doing with the "originals"
Banshee
Spoiler
Dr Polaris
Robin's dad
Captain Boomerang
Quasar
Goliath
Mimic in Exiles
Lightray of the New Gods
Carnage
and the Owl.

Who am I missing? I bet I'm missing a bunch.

And when you think of people keeping track of BOTH companies output, that's a lot of death in just the last 2-3 years.

Tis true. Writers are losing there creativity these days.

[johnny whiplash]

Well, it depends. Death can be a pretty useful tool to jolt characters/franchises out of staleness and create interest in them.

I agree completely. But if readers are seeing it too frequently, it's going to lose some "oomph." Not so special if it becomes abundant.

And I realize that "too frequently" is completely subjective. I'm not blaming the writers necessarily; simply that there's been a wave of it in the mainstream. Could be the nature of the recent crossovers. And it's not really fair to expect DC not to kill Flash just because I happen to read Captain America, too.

Still...

[The Hodag]

You have Omega Flight now.

It'll be kind of funny to see these arguments rehashed a few years after Bendis leaves Marvel.

"What about when Jessica Jones got raped and killed?"

"Ah, there's still Jessica Drew. Same dif."

[Jerome Gibbons]

I agree completely. But if readers are seeing it too frequently, it's going to lose some "oomph." Not so special if it becomes abundant.

What I meant was, death is a good tool to push characters into the spotlight. Very often (more often than not, I'd daresay, at least when it comes to Marvel comics) death stories are done not for the sake of the story (i.e., to create a powerful dramatic story or whatever), but in order to generate interest in the dead character, then they're brought back and they have a whole new audience.

See Hawkeye, for instance. The character's more in the spotlight now than he's been in ten years, maybe. And it all began with Bendis killing him. It seemed at first like he was killed off just to add gravitas to an event, but it turned out pretty good for the character. Everyone knows who he is now. He's become very prominent. He came back a few months later, starred in a couple of solo stories and now he's starring in the most successful monthly ongoing comic at the moment.

And it's similar with other things. Alpha Flight, New Warriors, etc. Sometimes death can be a great tool to draw people towards a character, is my point.

[Foolish Mortal]

Is this really a Bendis or even Marvel problem? Seems rampant in mainstream comics right now across the board. Can't get three pages deep into a DC book without a character dropping dead. Given the landscape as a whole, it's causing me as a reader to desensitize and tune out, the opposite of the desired dramatic effect. "In this issue: someone DIES!" "Well, what issue doesn't?"

A shout to fallen homies in recent years:
Captain America
Sabertooth
Superboy
A bunch of Alpha Flight
A bunch of New Warriors
Did Thanos die?
Question
Ralph Dibney
Sue Dibney
Jean Grey
Alexander Luthor
Blue Beetle
Duela Dent
Flash (a couple of them)
Jade
Maxwell Lord
Ant Man
Hawkeye (but then not)
Black Adam's family seemed to be created to die
Elektra, depending on what the Skrulls are doing with the "originals"
Banshee
Spoiler
Dr Polaris
Robin's dad
Captain Boomerang
Quasar
Goliath
Mimic in Exiles
Lightray of the New Gods
Carnage
and the Owl.

Who am I missing? I bet I'm missing a bunch.

And when you think of people keeping track of BOTH companies output, that's a lot of death in just the last 2-3 years.
Well Hawkeye's back. And Jean Grey didn't die, she ascended to a higher form of life. So she could come back at anytime.

[bradical]

death comes to us all.

[Hawkdevil]

I really don't understand bitching about characters dying. All that matters is: Was it a good story?

New Avengers: Breakout? Phenomenal story. So what if Carnage died.
The newest NA arc? dunno yet. it's just starting.

With how many characters in comic books throw their lives in jeopardy at every turn, you need to kill characters occassionally to create a sense of danger in the universe. Not everyone can live all the time, that'd be boring.

And Hawkeye's death was incredible and should've been the end of the character, it was so good.

[CyberGhostface]

I really don't understand bitching about characters dying. All that matters is: Was it a good story?

Its a nice thought, but doesn't hold very true. Obviously the quality of the story is whats important (although I thought Breakout was overrated) but how the characters are handled is also important. Now, if a story calls for a character's death, that's one thing. But in Carnage and Owl's case it was all but "Lets see if we can make this character look cool". Has Carnage ever been referenced after he's been killed? It was hardly relevant to the plot and little more than a way to make Sentry look 'badass'.

So no, there's more to it than it just being a 'good story'.

[Hawkdevil]

Its a nice thought, but doesn't hold very true. Obviously the quality of the story is whats important (although I thought Breakout was overrated) but how the characters are handled is also important. Now, if a story calls for a character's death, that's one thing. But in Carnage and Owl's case it was all but "Lets see if we can make this character look cool". Has Carnage ever been referenced after he's been killed? It was hardly relevant to the plot and little more than a way to make Sentry look 'badass'.

So no, there's more to it than it just being a 'good story'.

if someone has a good carnage story to tell, him being dead isn't going to stop them from doing it.

no one has had a good carnage story to tell in... how many years?

EDIT: And Bendis didn't "handle" Carnage. He killed him because Sentry needed to do that to SOMEONE recognizable to further his story, so why not Carnage? If it was someone else, I'd guess you'd still be upset but this is the story he wanted to tell, so he did.

And the Owl has always served a very specific purpose for Bendis is all his stories and the Owl was TRULY and DEFINATELY the fucking Owl in this story, he just died in it, is all.

[The Zevad]

I still haven't forgiven Bendis for killing Richard Fisk. And looked what he did to fucking Hector Ayala/White Tiger. What a fucking horror.

[MAK15]

He gave us Jessica Jones.


As far as I'm concerned, he can kill any fictional character he wants to.

Go ahead Bendis, kill Wolverine!

Its still a fair trade.

I actually bought Alias volume 1 today, and loved it.
after reading that, Im prolly gunna get the others.
hell, after reading that, I think that Jones should be an active NA member.

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

Is this really a Bendis or even Marvel problem? Seems rampant in mainstream comics right now across the board. Can't get three pages deep into a DC book without a character dropping dead. Given the landscape as a whole, it's causing me as a reader to desensitize and tune out, the opposite of the desired dramatic effect. "In this issue: someone DIES!" "Well, what issue doesn't?"

A shout to fallen homies in recent years:
Captain America
Sabertooth
Superboy
A bunch of Alpha Flight
A bunch of New Warriors
Did Thanos die?
Question
Ralph Dibney
Sue Dibney
Jean Grey
Alexander Luthor
Blue Beetle
Duela Dent
Flash (a couple of them)
Jade
Maxwell Lord
Ant Man
Hawkeye (but then not)
Black Adam's family seemed to be created to die
Elektra, depending on what the Skrulls are doing with the "originals"
Banshee
Spoiler
Dr Polaris
Robin's dad
Captain Boomerang
Quasar
Goliath
Mimic in Exiles
Lightray of the New Gods
Carnage
and the Owl.

Who am I missing? I bet I'm missing a bunch.

And when you think of people keeping track of BOTH companies output, that's a lot of death in just the last 2-3 years.

Captain America - This one works for me on multiple levels. Well executed, logical within the established direction of his series and made possible by complications from Civil War. I was moved as a reader.

Sabertooth - Not what I would have hoped for out of a final confrontation. Even Wolverine thought as much in the issue. I was completely unmoved by something I've waited a very long time for.

Superboy - I'm not sure why he even died within the content of the story. Superboy dies, but Nightwing who has no powers and at the same location is uninjured? What?

A bunch of Alpha Flight - I love Alpha Flight and I feel bad for people who only knew them from all the times they'd show up looking for someone in X-men comics only to return to Canada empty handed. This was handled well because they were first responders and they took the hit as can sometimes happen in their line of work. Just like Cap, I love the characters (except the new ones who were there) but it was handled well and conveyed the threat level of the enemy.

A bunch of New Warriors - I didn't much care for this one because they were indeed wreckless even if they had no reason to think Nitro was amped. I think there were other groups or perhaps a new group that could have kicked off the story rather than original New Warriors forgetting how to do anything.

Did Thanos die? - Who even knows. I wasn't thrilled with this one because Thanos is one of those characters that has come back from death a few times, but this time I don't see the purpose that it served within the story. From a writing standpoint I understand that Thanos needed to be removed in order to redefine cosmic Marvel, but mechanically it didn't work for me within the story.

Question - I don't understand the benefit of ending the Question in favor of a new Question. The character gained popularity from the JLU cartoon, as did Hawkwoman, but both characters were killed off rather than run with the spark of interest from another medium.

Ralph Dibney - I don't understand this one. I don't even know what to say about it other than I don't know why this happened.

Sue Dibney - When it first happened, I didn't like it and the more I think about it I really don't like it. It was a particularly graphic killing and on top of that a rape we never knew about. Most readers didn't know the character so a lot of the impact beyond the surface visual was lost, but I knew of the character from before and this one still doesn't sit well with me after all this time.

Jean Grey - I do not miss Jean Grey. While I don't like Emma Frost, I have also been made to realize that I don't have any need for Jean Grey to get good X-men stories. Other than the fact that Xorn was no Magneto, she went out decently. Not a heroic or sacrificial death, but a decent one.

Alexander Luthor - Guy survives Crisis on Infinite Earths to get shot down in the street by the Joker? Really?

Blue Beetle - The problem here is that DC threw everything behind Blue Beetle as a viable and legit character in the issue where he died. They could have done that at any time. Any time. But chose to show that he was about something, knowing he would be removed in the very same comic.

Duela Dent - Who? Shot in a back alley by a Monitor with a pistol? What?

Flash (a couple of them) - I'm still not even clear on what happened to Wally in Infinite Crisis. And Bart falls under Blue Beetle syndrome. In the same issue where he dies, we're shown that this guy has the chops, he's taking on all the Rogues with no powers, he really is the Flash. Then he dies. That should have been the first arc of Fastest Man Alive, not the last and not his death issue.

Jade - Not sure why this happened other than to pave the road to Parallax, but that might not have even been planned at that time. I suspect she fell under the banner of duplicate or repetitive characters.

Maxwell Lord - Not a terrible death at all, but DC failed to establish who this man was effectively. If you knew him it made a kind of sense, otherwise people were had no idea who this man was. And at a Wizard Chicago DC said readers needed to look to back issues or the internet to find out.

Ant Man - He went out well as a first responder to a possible threat. Sometimes you eat the bear and sometimes he eats you. Shocking and unfortunate, but it did let the reader know Disassembled was going to be different.

Hawkeye (but then not) - He went out in a very heroic and cinematic way. I never complained about Hawkeye's death scene and always liked the flow of it. Glad he's back though.

Black Adam's family seemed to be created to die - Not sure what to say on this one yet. I haven't liked the direction of Black Adam in a while as well as his relationship or lack of one with Captain Marvel. I want Black Adam not Dr. Doom/ Sub-mariner.

Elektra, depending on what the Skrulls are doing with the "originals"

Banshee - He went out well I suppose, but it sure was harsh. Again he went out like a hero and sometimes there is a risk you will get yourself killed because there's too much going on. And for Banshee there was too much going on that time.

Spoiler - I really, really didn't like this one. Don't want to be one of "those people" but she was not treated well as a female character. I didn't mind the mistake of starting the War Games, but she was mangled pretty badly and died at the hands of another female character in a move that only made sense to new readers. And DC pretty much walked away from the whole thing.

Dr Polaris - I liked this character. I have his first appearance ever from Green Lantern. I thought he had an interesting and classic origin. Sure he hadn't been in a good story in a long time, if ever. And sure sometimes when you go out on a hit with your super villain buddies not all of you come back. It was shocking within the context of the scene, but beyond that I thought it was kind of wasteful and the impact is not a lasting one.

Robin's dad - This would have meant more if everyone in the Batman Family wasn't some kind of orphan or from a single parent home. Within the story though it was very suspenseful and cinematic though, no denying that.

Captain Boomerang - Again, there was a lot of investment in the character so we'd feel something and paired with his intended target it was handled well.

Quasar - This is part of why I felt like the first Annihilation was a good concept, but failed to dot all the I's and cross all the T's. If the guardian of the universe has got to go (isn't that a bad thing?) then I really need to have it play out in a certain way and what we got wasn't it in my mind. I think the way in which it happened will probably be the vehicle of his return if it should happen.

Goliath - At first I didn't like this one at all. Bill Foster was a silver age character and went through turbulent times in the 70s at the hands of various creators until being put on ice for many years. Then he gets some screen time and like Blue Beetle showed that he could do things before a whole new audience. But then its curtains. He did go out like a hero and had no expectation that he might die nor did anyone else. I do like that what happened to him is not completely dropped and has come up in Black Panther, Incredible Hulk's WWH parts, and I would hope would come up in Thor because the public should think that is the same Thor.

Mimic in Exiles - Never liked Mimic so keep it rolling.

Lightray of the New Gods - Very undignified death and probably not the last. And I'm not sure to what end or if it will be something that lasts or if the New Gods must make a return sooner than later.

Carnage - Already covered.

and the Owl - Already covered.

Seems like there are names missing from this list...

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

What I meant was, death is a good tool to push characters into the spotlight. Very often (more often than not, I'd daresay, at least when it comes to Marvel comics) death stories are done not for the sake of the story (i.e., to create a powerful dramatic story or whatever), but in order to generate interest in the dead character, then they're brought back and they have a whole new audience.

See Hawkeye, for instance. The character's more in the spotlight now than he's been in ten years, maybe. And it all began with Bendis killing him. It seemed at first like he was killed off just to add gravitas to an event, but it turned out pretty good for the character. Everyone knows who he is now. He's become very prominent. He came back a few months later, starred in a couple of solo stories and now he's starring in the most successful monthly ongoing comic at the moment.

And it's similar with other things. Alpha Flight, New Warriors, etc. Sometimes death can be a great tool to draw people towards a character, is my point.

I've said it many times before. Sometimes getting killed can be the best thing to happen to a comic character. If you'd told me 10 years ago that everyone would take notice whenever Hawkeye made a move I would not have believed you. Or that I'd have sold as much Omega Flight as I did.

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

I still haven't forgiven Bendis for killing Richard Fisk. And looked what he did to fucking Hector Ayala/White Tiger. What a fucking horror.

I would have liked to see how Richard got from being the Rose/ Blood Rose to the state he was in during Underboss. I was fine with the content, but I felt like I'd missed something as someone who had prior exposure to the character.

And it was unfortunate what happened to White Tiger, kind of depressing. But I think that emotion was the intent.

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

Killing off characters is not a new thing. I used to study the handbooks of the dead thoroughly and sometimes folks died. Name brand characters. When people say too much death in comics or writers aren't bringing the creativity, understand that characters being killed is not new. I dare say that restraint might be shown these days. Does nobody remember the ongoing Scourge of the Underworld angle through tons of Marvel comics in the 80s? People would flip all the way out if that happened now.

If I was a writer I can't say that I wouldn't lay some characters out right out of the gate. Or lead characters down paths that ended with their deaths. Pretty sure I would do exactly that.

[Foolish Mortal]

Jean Grey - I do not miss Jean Grey. While I don't like Emma Frost, I have also been made to realize that I don't have any need for Jean Grey to get good X-men stories. Other than the fact that Xorn was no Magneto, she went out decently. Not a heroic or sacrificial death, but a decent one.
Jean did not die. She ascended to a higher form of life. So the door for her to return is still open.

[Matt O'Keefe]

Jean did not die. She ascended to a higher form of life. So the door for her to return is still open.

Same thing, for all intensive purposes. If they want to bring her back, death wouldn't stop 'em.


90% of deaths nowadays are plot devices and nothing more, which I think is a damn shame.

[The Hodag]

Killing off characters is not a new thing. I used to study the handbooks of the dead thoroughly and sometimes folks died. Name brand characters. When people say too much death in comics or writers aren't bringing the creativity, understand that characters being killed is not new. I dare say that restraint might be shown these days. Does nobody remember the ongoing Scourge of the Underworld angle through tons of Marvel comics in the 80s? People would flip all the way out if that happened now.

This might could use some context. I never read the main Scourge storyline (was in Cap, right?), but I read a decent number of books with his "guest-killings", and as I recall these were true bottom of the barrel villains. As in, they'd only had one or two appearances, had no fan followings, and mostly came from Silver and Bronze Age eras where there were so many done-in-one stories that Marvel probably produced a dozen new villains in any given month.

While I think any character is potentially salvageable, and I'm not necessarily condoning the Scourge "event"...these guys were a level of strata below even lesser villains like The Owl. It'd be like killing off - oh, I hate to be cruel, but...it'd be like killing off The Provost from Runaways (dude who ran the kiddie crime ring). I dig Vaughan and I thought that story was solid, but this was a pretty unmemorable villain who'd mostly elicit a shrug if he died. If a modern Scourge was offing guys like him, I don't think folks would be very up in arms.

The Owl, though some have never seen him in a really good story, has had enough high points (like the "Owl/Octopus War") to at least stir up a few people in a thread like this. And he's had dozens of appearances. And he was a Stan Lee creation. For me, this amounts to a villain head-and-shoulders above all the done-in-one villains from the Scourge killings.

As to deaths being okay "if it's a good story", there's definitely some truth to that, but it's a much more subjective truth. For instance...I didn't think the Owl's death was part of a good story at all. Phoenix? Yeah. Elektra? Yeah. And more recently, Cap's death was pretty damn well handled. But the Owl, Banshee, Hawkeye - a lot of the guys on that list - their deaths have been friggin' weak.

For my own part, I think it'd be a fair trade-off if any writer who killed off a noteworthy or venerable character had to in turn create a hero or villain. I wonder if the writers would be up to it?

[arthurloewenkamp]

To write stories that try to incorporate realism people are going to die. I'm cool with it.
Bendis does a good job of building up old forgotten characters so he deserves some murderous leeway.

[ds9]

He gave us Jessica Jones.


As far as I'm concerned, he can kill any fictional character he wants to.

Go ahead Bendis, kill Wolverine!

Its still a fair trade.
What if the next big writer comes in and kills Jessica Jones but the story is well written?

[CyberGhostface]

And Bendis didn't "handle" Carnage. He killed him because Sentry needed to do that to SOMEONE recognizable to further his story, so why not Carnage?

What kind of excuse is that? Bendis didn't HAVE to kill someone off. Heck, they could have had Sentry simply rip the symbiote off of him singlehandedly without killing him and the same effect could be had. But in the end, killing off Carnage had NO effect on the story. Never has it been referenced again. It was a throwaway moment. "Oh, Bendis had to kill someone off for the story". No he didn't.

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

What kind of excuse is that? Bendis didn't HAVE to kill someone off. Heck, they could have had Sentry simply rip the symbiote off of him singlehandedly without killing him and the same effect could be had. But in the end, killing off Carnage had NO effect on the story. Never has it been referenced again. It was a throwaway moment. "Oh, Bendis had to kill someone off for the story". No he didn't.

I'm fairly certain it will come up again very soon. Or at least be referenced.

[Tom Burgos]

For my own part, I think it'd be a fair trade-off if any writer who killed off a noteworthy or venerable character had to in turn create a hero or villain. I wonder if the writers would be up to it?

Well, Bendis has created Layla Miller, Jessica Jones, Quake, Angela Del Toro and The Collective guy. (I'm sure he's created more)
There you go...for killing Hawkeye (who is alive anyway), Ant-Man, Jack Of Hearts and the Owl.

[bartleby]

I don't think there's a single comic book character whose death would get me riled up enough to complain about it.

[Will]

What kind of excuse is that? Bendis didn't HAVE to kill someone off. Heck, they could have had Sentry simply rip the symbiote off of him singlehandedly without killing him and the same effect could be had.
Ripping the symbiote off is not a viable tactic, sonics and fire would have worked more effectively and Sentry didn't have any of that on hand. Even with how Carnage was dispatched I hardly doubt he's actually dead since the symbiote itself could survive in space and any writer can write Cletus back into having been healed by the symbiote. In several depictions Cletus actually depended on the symbiote for survival while in others he didn't.


But in the end, killing off Carnage had NO effect on the story. Never has it been referenced again. It was a throwaway moment. "Oh, Bendis had to kill someone off for the story". No he didn't.
Even if that part of the story won't be referenced again, the story to me became much better for the use of Carnage. Carnage had a great Alien'esque look and appearance and ended up being too much for Luke, Spider-Woman, and Daredevil to handle by themselves. Sentry's intervention also played into Foggy's "prayer" to be saved by him in the last moment.

If Bendis had killed off any of the other symbiotes from Planet of the Symbiotes and people would still have bitched with stuff like "Oh no, he killed another character!". From a writer's perspective you can't win when you kill off any character since there are always people who think that no characters should ever die because of the serial nature of comics or they were fans of the character. That being said, deaths have become so ridiculous in comics that you can pretty much bring back any character no matter how crazy it seems. Look at Bucky, Mysterio, and Captain Marvel, and do we really expect Captain America, Owl, Thanos and Quasar to really stay dead?

Hell no.

[jordan michael]

You ever try and kill a real owl with bullets? Never works.

Bendis is impervious to bullets.

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

I don't think there's a single comic book character whose death would get me riled up enough to complain about it.

Are there no characters anywhere you have any kind of attachment to?

[Ray G.]

Well, Bendis has created Layla Miller, Jessica Jones, Quake, Angela Del Toro and The Collective guy. (I'm sure he's created more)
There you go...for killing Hawkeye (who is alive anyway), Ant-Man, Jack Of Hearts and the Owl.

Plus, Jack of Hearts was dead when Bendis killed him.

[Jonathan Callan]

As much as I think Bendis is a great writer, it is getting tiring of how he likes to kill off established villains to give new characters credibility.

I've never heard this complaint before. Are you a Hawkeye fan by any chance?


It was just "Hey, look how cool the Sentry is."

Yes it was. Cause he is. And that moment RULED. And wasn't Carnage back like two issues later?



And now in his latest issue Owl, one of Daredevil's earliest villains, is blown away by the Hood. Bendis did a really good job rebuilding the Owl in his DD run, making him really scary and fucked up, and to see him get kicked to the wayside like this to give another new character credibility just really bothered me.

I understand your point but you just proved that Bendis does recreate characters when he sees something potentially cool to do with them. And even with a shot in the arm from Bendis, The Owl has been boring for years now. Brubaker probably didn't want to touch him with a ten foot pole with a ten foot pole attatched on the end given that he clearly has other plans for the title, so Bendis killed off a stale character that no one was using. The fact that the Owl has a lot of history to him just doesn't enter into it in my mind. So did Karen Page when Frank Miller made her a heroin addict who sucks dick for money. That's what made it a shocking moment and a great story.

I'll give you one thing. The Sentry killing Carnage thing never made any sense to me, if only because of the way Bendis tried to wiggle out of it. Bendis' explanation for why Carnage might not have died is: "I never said Cletus Cassiday was in the suit." But when I went back and read it, there clearly is someone in the suit. So it was either another criminal or, possibly, like a security guard or something. Which kind of means The Sentry could have just killed an innocent man without checking inside the symbiote.



Am I the only one who feels this way?

Given that this is the internet? I'm sure you're not. Where are all the hardcore Owl fans out there? Show your homey some love! Maybe you guys can get together with the "Fans of People that are Pissed Mark Millar Killed That Guy from Slingers" fan group.

[Jonathan Callan]

The two examples you gave are villains. And frankly, villains who didn't have a huge fanbase. Carnage and Owl were generally regarded as lesser versions of more popular villains. Plus, villains always come back. :)

A lot of people complained for a while about Bendis killing off too many heroes. But as we've seen, in the case of Hawkeye and Ultimate Gwen, he usually has a plan.

Actually, he didn't really have a plan with Hawkeye. He just saw a cool opening for a good story. And, contrary to popular belief, he did really dig the character a lot.

[Jonathan Callan]

Carnage was killed just to make Sentry look like a badass.

And it worked.

[Jonathan Callan]

The point was (and in your opinion it sucked, but others enjoyed it--it was probably one of the better symbiote stories in a while) that Carnage was still being used in the last five years before Bendis killed him off.


He was being used to sucky effect.


And Carnage was written better than what Bendis did with the character.


How? He's never had any menace in any of the non-Bendis appearances I've seen him in. He's just a really limited character because (just like the early Venom stories) he has nothing to his character other than: kill people. So it's not like you can do anything with him other than constantly have him break out of prison and go on killing sprees.

[Jonathan Callan]

Seemingly many people.


What if Bendis killed off Clayface and the Penguin?

Then I'd be like "Oh shit, Bendis just killed off two good characters. Also he's writing for DC Comics now, and doing Batman. So that's sweet. I hope he manages a cross-over with Marvel so he can bring back Carnage and have him get stuck under the wheels of the Batmobile this time."

[Jonathan Callan]

I think his point is not every story Marvel puts out this year has to kill a character to be effective. You don't need a body count to tell a compelling, solid story.

But ANY writer will tell you, it freaking helps. Go jump on Whedon for killing Wash and Jenny Calendar. Or better yet, um... every writer ever.

"Dammit, Shakespeare killed Polonious! Screw you William Shakespeare, you freaking hack! Don't you know you don't need a body count to tell a compelling story?"

[Hawkdevil]

What kind of excuse is that? Bendis didn't HAVE to kill someone off. Heck, they could have had Sentry simply rip the symbiote off of him singlehandedly without killing him and the same effect could be had. But in the end, killing off Carnage had NO effect on the story. Never has it been referenced again. It was a throwaway moment. "Oh, Bendis had to kill someone off for the story". No he didn't.

He did. He felt he did to achieve the effect that he achieved in the moment and in the story. Would you rather he ignores his impulses which are born directly out of creativity and hack it out for the fans instead?

And AGAIN, it creates a sense of danger in the WHOLE UNIVERSE when someone actually dies in comics.

[Taxman]

Bendis did a really good job rebuilding the Owl in his DD run, making him really scary and fucked up . . .It seems to me this makes him his toy to break.

[Matt O'Keefe]

And AGAIN, it creates a sense of danger in the WHOLE UNIVERSE when someone actually dies in comics.

Not when someone dies every single week.:?

[Taxman]

Not when someone dies every single week.:?Or resurrected every single week. :p

[Jonathan Callan]

Not when someone dies every single week.:?

This is the craziest thing I've ever heard. Only in comics would you ever see this argument. People die, its part of life. A writer's job is to communicate life as we see it. Honestly, Shakespeare was tame compared to John Webster, but even The Bard wrote very few plays (non-comedies) in which NO ONE died because that's same pretty damn boring story-telling. Not to mention it rings false to human tragedy and REAL LIFE. Go tell Aristotle and the Greeks that it's lazy story-telling to kill charachters. I mean, really.

Obviously comics in a shared universe are a different medium. But if you put more toys in the box than you take out (which Bendis has) you're doing damn well for yourself.

[Jonathan Callan]

Btw, everyone - I'm sorry for having like six posts in a row. I will stop reading this thread until others respond.

[Matt O'Keefe]

This is the craziest thing I've ever heard. Only in comics would you ever see this argument. People die, its part of life. A writer's job is to communicate life as we see it. Honestly, Shakespeare was tame compared to John Webster, but even The Bard wrote very few plays (non-comedies) in which NO ONE died because that's same pretty damn boring story-telling. Not to mention it rings false to human tragedy and REAL LIFE. Go tell Aristotle and the Greeks that it's lazy story-telling to kill charachters. I mean, really.

Obviously comics in a shared universe are a different medium. But if you put more toys in the box than you take out (which Bendis has) you're doing damn well for yourself.

In no medium do I see that much death. The fact is, all too often death is an easy way to move along a story. Extremely over-used. Can be used well, but all too often isn't.


BTW, I don't at all believe Owl is dead.

[Albert]

Death is a part of life, but it's not the only part of life, and I think serialized fiction (not just comics) can, in some instances, maybe "overuse" death at the expense of other...things.

[Matt O'Keefe]

Death is a part of life, but it's not the only part of life, and I think serialized fiction (not just comics) can, in some instances, maybe "overuse" death at the expense of other...things.

Thank you!:thumb:

[Jerome Gibbons]

Death is a part of life, but it's not the only part of life, and I think serialized fiction (not just comics) can, in some instances, maybe "overuse" death at the expense of other...things.

Like anal masturbation, yeah?

[Albert]

Like anal masturbation, yeah?

http://www.bagophily.com/images/barfsmiley.gif

[CyberGhostface]

I've never heard this complaint before. Are you a Hawkeye fan by any chance?

Sarcasm aside, no I'm not.


Yes it was. Cause he is. And that moment RULED. And wasn't Carnage back like two issues later?

No, he's not. Frankly, I found Sentry such a dull character. one of the reasons why I started liking Post-Civil War New Avengers so much better than Pre-Civil War was because he was nowhere to be found. And it hardly 'ruled' because the idea of knocking off a preestablished character to give a new one credibility is a cliche.


So did Karen Page when Frank Miller made her a heroin addict who sucks dick for money. That's what made it a shocking moment and a great story.

Yes, but Karen's drug addiction and eventual redemption was a major part of Born Again. It wasn't like "Oh look, she's a whore, now lets forget about her".


I'll give you one thing. The Sentry killing Carnage thing never made any sense to me, if only because of the way Bendis tried to wiggle out of it. Bendis' explanation for why Carnage might not have died is: "I never said Cletus Cassiday was in the suit."

When did he say this? I'm not doubting you, just curious as I've never heard Bendis referencing it.


And it worked.

No, it didn't. I'm more interested in Geldoff than Sentry, and I'm not exaggerating in saying that. It was an artificial moment that had no bearing on the rest of the title.


How? He's never had any menace in any of the non-Bendis appearances I've seen him in.

Guess you've never read Warren Ellis's Mindbomb, huh?


Would you rather he ignores his impulses which are born directly out of creativity and hack it out for the fans instead?

In this case, yes I would. He originally wanted to kill off Kingpin in his initial DD run but Marvel pressured him not to. Would you have preferred that?

[bartleby]

Are there no characters anywhere you have any kind of attachment to?

Not to that level. I guess I read enough different comics for different reasons that I'm not going to get all worked up over a character dying.

[Albert]

Not to that level. I guess I read enough different comics for different reasons that I'm not going to get all worked up over a character dying.

I think I know what you're saying - that there's no character you would be upset about if they got killed off JUST BECAUSE they were killed off; you would have more interest in the hows and the whys it happened within the story then just worrying about the character being alive or dead. But you would complain if, say, a character was killed off for a bad reason, right?

[bartleby]

I think I know what you're saying - that there's no character you would be upset about if they got killed off JUST BECAUSE they were killed off; you would have more interest in the hows and the whys it happened within the story then just worrying about the character being alive or dead. But you would complain if, say, a character was killed off for a bad reason, right?

After maybe Iceman, Hawkeye was my favorite character when I started reading comics.

[sleep]

Walt Carnage is dead?

[Hawkdevil]

I wanna see Bendis himself come in this thread and weigh in. I really do.

[Albert]

Walt Carnage is dead?

Walt Carnage sounds like Carnage's old-timey uncle.

But yeah, Carnage got ripped in half by Sentry (in space!) in New Avengers #2. We don't really know if Cletus Kassady was inside at the time, or if the symbiote can survive being ripped in half.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/24/Sentrycarnage.jpg

[Jonathan Callan]

When did he say this? I'm not doubting you, just curious as I've never heard Bendis referencing it.

In this case, yes I would. He originally wanted to kill off Kingpin in his initial DD run but Marvel pressured him not to. Would you have preferred that?

He mentions it all the time in Word Balloon interviews (the idea that Cletus might not have been in the suit). I think it's just his way of being a smart-ass and getting away with Carnage's inevitable return. Frankly guys, and I'm honestly not trying to be a dick about this, but Carnage hasn't come back because nobody WANTS to use him. It took The Spot (THE FREAKING SPOT) less than a year to come back to life after Mark Millar killed him and he's showed up in no less than three places since (currently kicking ass in Modok's 11). And when your character has that little milage left to you, that The Spot is kicking your ass, maybe you should stay dead.

And no, you're right. Killing The Kingpin would have been a bad call, as Bendis himself admits. But taking one of the greatest, easily most Shakespearian characters of the Marvel Universe -built to an incredible level of pathos by Frank Miller-, and comparing him to Carnage and the fucking Owl is outright crazy. Kingpin has a ton of story mileage left in him and one day, when some one does the inevitable The Hood Vs. Kingpin story, that's going to kick ass because Bendis kept the dude alive.

And one day, one someone does the inevitable "Carnage Escapes From Prison and Kills a Fuck-Ton More People Just Like Every Other Time" it will be because some other douchebag brought him back. And it doesn't change the fact that Bendis leaves far MORE in the toy-box than he takes out, and usually he's able to do this precisely because of the risk-taking story telling the man practices. He made The Owl cool again? Great. It's his character to kill.

End of argument.

Except to say that I think you guys are insane to say death is more prevalent in comics than "in other mediums". Compare the number of deaths in comics per story to the number of deaths in something with an equivalent level of scope - a great crime film, Greek and Norse hero myths, tragedian plays of Shakespeare or Marlowe (and let's make no mistake, these really ARE the kind of stories we're talking about here) and comics come off with far LESS deaths than any other medium. Granted, this is because its somewhat necessary. In comics a death doesn't just box one writer in, it boxes in every writer to follow. But it's so goddamn necessary. Why? Because people die in life. Period.

I just don't understand why this is even an argument.

[Jonathan Callan]

Would you rather he ignores his impulses which are born directly out of creativity and hack it out for the fans instead?

Cyber Ghostface, you attributed this quote to me but it was actually Hawkdevil who said it. I damn sure agree with it but maybe you should address your counter-arguments to him instead.

[Jonathan Callan]

Are there no characters anywhere you have any kind of attachment to?

I have attachments to good characters.

[Matt O'Keefe]

I have attachments to good characters.

I don't think whether or not the character is good is relevent. What if someone killed Kraven the Hunter before Last Hunt, or Bullseye before the Miller run?

[Jonathan Callan]

I don't think whether or not the character is good is relevent. What if someone killed Kraven the Hunter before Last Hunt, or Bullseye before the Miller run?

That's kind of crazy logic, to keep around bad characters just in case someone has a good take on them. I'm not saying that we should have tons of death for death's sake but when it means something and produces a good dramatic moment, do it.

Hell... if killing Bullseye when he was lame gave us a great character, I'd have been all for it. But honestly... you wouldn't even bother. Bullseye was originally too lame to even make someone else cool by proxy in death.

[Ben]

I like Carnage.

[The Hodag]

I have attachments to good characters.

See, me too. But I think the Owl's a better character than Maria Hill, Layla Miller, the Collective guy and...well, most of Bendis's creations that aren't Jessica Jones.

Crazy subjectivity.

[Albert]

I like Carnage.

Me too! Remember when he bonded with the Silver Surfer and became COSMIC CARNAGE?

[Dreg]

See, me too. But I think the Owl's a better character than Maria Hill, Layla Miller, the Collective guy and...well, most of Bendis's creations that aren't Jessica Jones.

Crazy subjectivity.

I'd argue that Peter David really made Layla Miller into the character she is today. Jessica Jones, though, I can respect. Quake and Maria Hill are pretty forgettable.

[Mark Mavro (kryptic6)]

What was the plan with Hawkeye other than to "break the internet in half"? His death was lame - runs inside to change into his thousand-arrow-costume and is in the battle for 1 minute before he gets all blowns up. Reappears in House of M and now is where Echo's sweaty old costume.

I'm no fan of Carnage but I can understand the one fan out there being angry. Writers often try to force a character into the food chain by simply having them smack down another character.

Sentry is one of the worst characters out there. The orginal mini started off great with some confused dude realizing he was once a great hero. And now Marvel seems to be the only ones out there calling Sentry the Earth's greatest champion.

The one thing I will chime in and agree with is the fact that Sentry is fucking lame (currently, and with the exception of the original mini). I'm bored every time the guy is in a panel. Don't know why. The schizo/agoraphobia thing just isn't working for me at all. That angle has basically rendered him with absolutely no personality. He's worse than Superman.

[Mark Mavro (kryptic6)]

I'd argue that Peter David really made Layla Miller into the character she is today. Jessica Jones, though, I can respect. Quake and Maria Hill are pretty forgettable.

I definitely got into Maria Hill. She was a character I loved to hate. Bravo to Bendis and Millar (in Civil War) for that.

[Jonathan Callan]

Walt Carnage is dead?

Jesus, I loved this character. Old Walt Carnage... sitting on his porch... killing people... whittling like... sticks and stuff. Seriously, somebody needs to photo-shop Walt Carnage. Like with a beard.

[The Hodag]

I'd argue that Peter David really made Layla Miller into the character she is today. Jessica Jones, though, I can respect. Quake and Maria Hill are pretty forgettable.

Yeah, I've heard David's been doing some good stuff with Layla. I dug the Madrox mini that kicked the new X-Factor off and liked the first few issues pretty well too, so I'll probably play catch-up somewhere down the line.

For me, the fact that Layla Miller might've become something interesting is just a testament to the "no bad characters, only bad writers" theorem. It's precisely why I think the Owl getting offed is kinda lame. I liked that crippled old freak.

[Jonathan Callan]

For me, the fact that Layla Miller might've become something interesting is just a testament to the "no bad characters, only bad writers" theorem. It's precisely why I think the Owl getting offed is kinda lame. I liked that crippled old freak.

This rule is 100% true and important to mention. But every character has a shelf-life and it's hard to argue any one was using The Owl.

[The Hodag]

But every character has a shelf-life and it's hard to argue any one was using The Owl.

Or the Purple Man until Bendis used him in Alias.

Or Dr. Faustus until Brubaker used him as catalyst for offing Cap.

Or Star-Lord till the kick-ass new Annihilation spin-off.

Hell, no one was using Mastermind until the Dark Phoenix Saga.

I don't buy the shelf-life notion at all. I'm okay with the occasional death in superhero comics, but I also think writers are way too hasty to dispense with characters just because they don't like 'em. Seems selfish in a shared universe.

As to the necessity of death to foster realism, well, let's just say I'm also not so dead-set on the importance of realism in superhero comics to begin with. And realism can take a hundred other less permanent forms, anyway: Stark's alcholism, Spidey's bill problems, Jessica Jones' self-esteem issues...even just seeing the heroes sitting down to eat.

Look, I'm not gonna start some letter campaign to bring back the Owl or some shit. Dude will be back one day anyway. But I think his death was lame and that the colorful school of villainy he represented is an asset too easily thrown away by some current generation writers. Guys like that are what give the Marvel Universe flavor.

[scouser]

The one thing I will chime in and agree with is the fact that Sentry is fucking lame (currently, and with the exception of the original mini). I'm bored every time the guy is in a panel. Don't know why. The schizo/agoraphobia thing just isn't working for me at all. That angle has basically rendered him with absolutely no personality. He's worse than Superman.

This so true! He has got to be one of the most unpopular modern marvel characters going. I just can't be bothered reading about him at all he is so boring!

[CyberGhostface]

Cyber Ghostface, you attributed this quote to me but it was actually Hawkdevil who said it. I damn sure agree with it but maybe you should address your counter-arguments to him instead.

Sorry, I was trying to get all the replies from different messages in one post and I got mixed up.

[Jonathan Callan]

Sorry, I was trying to get all the replies from different messages in one post and I got mixed up.

It's coolio. I think this argument is basically over anyway. Somebody wanted Bendis to come by and get in the mix and I totally see why he doesn't want to. You just go round in circles. Yes, there are totally lame characters that someone can re-invent and make cool but Bendis already re-invented The Owl and still nobody really used him besides Bendis himself. Obviously, in a shared universe you have to give proper consideration to every character you kill but the rule is one of story. If you generate more interesting stories from killing that character than from leaving him alive, then fucking do it. And I certainly think the Hood's rise to power will accomplish that, especially compared to the very few good Owl stories in the last... um, ever. (Face it, the guy wasn't even cool when he first appeared.)

Sure, there are plenty of counter-examples (characters that were lame and later became cool): Bullseye, Purple Man, etc. but that kind of thinking would drive a writer insane. You can't second guess every character someone might one day have a good take on. You just have to follow your story sense of what's dramatic. You say to yourself - what generates the best possible future stories? And then you do that.

Carnage and The Owl just didn't have a lot of story mileage in them. Period. I believe people only make the argument that we are too quick to dispense with characters in comics because a character they personally liked dies. When Mark Millar killed Hornet from Slingers, it's hard to objectively argue with lost a character with any real resonance or potential. The MU is a living, breathing organic universe. Even as the writers give, they must take away. That's how Stan and Jack would have wanted it. In the first 100 issues of the Fantastic Four or the Avengers, there were more changes to the status quo of the title than in the rest of the combined history of each. Frankly, I would rather have risky, creative story-telling than Marvel just playing it safe and that's why we ALL love anyway. Without him, we'd be stuck with the same lame Avengers in neutral we've had for the last twenty years.

I appreciate the arguments expressed here by those who disagree with me, and I certainly understand where they're coming from, but I should probably be done with this discussion. I don't want to keep going round and round trying to justify why The Owl is clearly not a case of what happened with Bullseye or The Purple Man. It's pretty obvious if you're willing to see it and... if not, well, sorry you lost a character you dug. Honestly.

Stick around and see if Bendis gives you a new one though.

[CyberGhostface]

Yeah, I guess I'm done with the argument for now as well unless Bendis wants to chip in.

[A.Huerta]

This so true! He has got to be one of the most unpopular modern marvel characters going. I just can't be bothered reading about him at all he is so boring!

Blame the writers. he has so much potential, its not even funny. They keep writing him as a guy who stands in the corner being all emo but if u read the way Jenkins or Hine writes him, hes a badass.

Samething with Ares, so far, Oeming is the only one to do him justice.

[Mr. Green]

The thing is, Jenkins pretty much ripped off the MPD aspects of Hulk and used the idea for Sentry.

And that mini didn't resolve anything. In fact, it made his origin even more uncertain, confusing, and stupid.

The next person Bendis needs to kill off is Sentry.

[The Human Target]

What if the next big writer comes in and kills Jessica Jones but the story is well written?

I'd be sad, but thats just the way it is.

These people are writing shared universe fiction.

In universes that have existed for 60 plus years.

Thousands of people have created thousands of characters and ideas.

They can't all exist side by side.

And eventually, they're gonna need cleaned out.

I guess I should also note that I'm not reading any comics with Jessica Jones in them currently, so as far as I'm concerned she is already "dead."

[A.Huerta]

The thing is, Jenkins pretty much ripped off the MPD aspects of Hulk and used the idea for Sentry.

And that mini didn't resolve anything. In fact, it made his origin even more uncertain, confusing, and stupid.

The next person Bendis needs to kill off is Sentry.

And Stan ripped off Hyde/Frankenstein for the Hulk, whats ur point?

[Foolish Mortal]

The thing is, Jenkins pretty much ripped off the MPD aspects of Hulk and used the idea for Sentry.

And that mini didn't resolve anything. In fact, it made his origin even more uncertain, confusing, and stupid.
The final issue of the series made everything clear to me.

[Lord Jermaine Retail]

Blame the writers. he has so much potential, its not even funny. They keep writing him as a guy who stands in the corner being all emo but if u read the way Jenkins or Hine writes him, hes a badass.

Samething with Ares, so far, Oeming is the only one to do him justice.

My main problem with Sentry, who, I just love (I'm one of those people that really clicks with the character) is that I've been looking for the Sentry from the original event by Jenkins. The guy everyone looked up to as the standard. But we don't have that guy. That guy is not active and may never be again, otherwise he'd really be too much. And none of the other characters remember that we was the role model and the gold standard. I fear that Sentry's on a course to getting put back onto the shelf to cool off for a while. It could be due to the fact that Thor is active again and I'm pretty sure his power levels will be off the previous scale. Or it could be because of all the various things that have happened to the Sentry since he was found on the Raft. He's been through a lot and may have to crash hard in order to get closer to becoming the guy from the original mini.