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View Full Version : Hey Nextwave fans, why didn't you pick up this week's Ms. Marvel?



changingshades
08-04-2007, 03:34 PM
Because it has Machine man getting his robot brain on her fleshy parts all up on it.

Here's a samplehttp://farm2.static.flickr.com/1168/991584971_bcc05cca7e_o.jpg

The Cheap-Arse Film Critic
08-04-2007, 03:36 PM
God, trying to work NextWave into continuity is going to give some editors at Marvel seizures...

RebootedCorpse
08-04-2007, 03:37 PM
That's the only reason I picked this ish up.

The Human Target
08-04-2007, 03:39 PM
It wasn't written by Warren Ellis?


And that ant no burn on Reed.

Matt O'Keefe
08-04-2007, 03:40 PM
It wasn't written by Warren Ellis?


And that ant no burn on Reed.

Ditto.

Ben
08-04-2007, 04:09 PM
God, trying to work NextWave into continuity is going to give some editors at Marvel seizures...I don't see what's so difficult about it. The only "problem" I see is that Machine Man's personality changed a bit. But he just finished a trip to see the Celestials, and we all know what happened up there.

Donal DeLay
08-04-2007, 04:10 PM
1. Ellis didn't write it. Therefore it is not Nextwave. It is someone trying to imitate Ellis' writing.

2. Nextwave should not be something that enters continuity of other books.

3. Ellis Didn't write it.

4. Immonnen didn't draw it.

5. Ellis didn't write it.

6. You're teh ghey.

TheKraken
08-04-2007, 04:10 PM
I can't imagine why they'd even want to put Nextwave into continuity. Do they really want all those characters to be pretty strictly relegated to fucked up comic relief? Don't get me wrong, I love Nextwave, but it seems really weird to integrate it into other books...

Ben
08-04-2007, 04:11 PM
I wish they put out more Ms. Marvel trades. I really like Ms. Marvel. She's cool and hot and stuff. I just wish I could tell whether she's married or not from her title!

Ben
08-04-2007, 04:12 PM
I can't imagine why they'd even want to put Nextwave into continuity. Do they really want all those characters to be pretty strictly relegated to fucked up comic relief? Don't get me wrong, I love Nextwave, but it seems really weird to integrate it into other books...It doesn't seem weird to me. I see no reason why all the Nextwave characters have to be all wacky in other books. Most of the characters were really badass in Nextwave. I'd love to see Monica or Boom Boom acting all badass in some other Marvel books.

TheKraken
08-04-2007, 04:16 PM
It doesn't seem weird to me. I see no reason why all the Nextwave characters have to be all wacky in other books. Most of the characters were really badass in Nextwave. I'd love to see Monica or Boom Boom acting all badass in some other Marvel books.

Would you also like to see Boom Boom barely smart enough to write her own name in other Marvel books? Why integrate a book you have to ignore parts of? Machine Man's robot brain needing beer as a giant can opener shoots out of his chest just doesn't jibe with the current (too-)serious tone of the Marvel U for me...

Jerome Gibbons
08-04-2007, 04:16 PM
I read the Machine Man appearance. It was awesome. His first line to Carol was gold.

Ben
08-04-2007, 04:17 PM
Would you also like to see Boom Boom barely smart enough to write her own name in other Marvel books? Why integrate a book you have to ignore parts of? Machine Man's robot brain needing beer as a giant can opener shoots out of his chest just doesn't jibe with the current (too-)serious tone of the Marvel U for me...You don't have to include every element of the Nextwave books. Geez.

Matthew Brown
08-04-2007, 04:22 PM
Fuck the haters. This appearance was awesome.

changingshades
08-04-2007, 04:23 PM
1. Ellis didn't write it. Therefore it is not Nextwave. It is someone trying to imitate Ellis' writing.

2. Nextwave should not be something that enters continuity of other books.

3. Ellis Didn't write it.

4. Immonnen didn't draw it.

5. Ellis didn't write it.

6. You're teh ghey. so all I see in this post is how Donnie likes balls in his mouth.

changingshades
08-04-2007, 04:25 PM
Would you also like to see Boom Boom barely smart enough to write her own name in other Marvel books? Why integrate a book you have to ignore parts of? Machine Man's robot brain needing beer as a giant can opener shoots out of his chest just doesn't jibe with the current (too-)serious tone of the Marvel U for me...

she did date cannonball

lonesomefool
08-04-2007, 04:31 PM
I was tempted, but honestly, while I find Brian Reed to be a perfectly good writer, I just couldnt see him "nailing" the humor like Ellis did.

Ryan F
08-04-2007, 04:43 PM
I like the word "fleshcapades" :)

Fake Pat
08-04-2007, 04:59 PM
It wasn't written by Warren Ellis?


And that ant no burn on Reed.

For me it was more about the fact that it wasn't drawn by Immonen.

And that kind of is a burn on whoever's drawing Ms. Marvel right now. Not that good.

Donal DeLay
08-04-2007, 06:29 PM
so all I see in this post is how Donnie likes balls in his mouth.
Well, it's about time you at least admitted you like to envision men with balls in their mouth.

I'm flattered it's ME you like seeing, but you're not my type.

Too feminine.

Dermie
08-05-2007, 08:06 AM
Nextwave itself really doesn't fit in continuity (Ellis himself said so on more than one occassion), but that doesn't mean that certain elements of the series or characterizations can't appear in the regular MU versions of those characters. But to try and say that everything that happened in nextwave happened in the 616 universe exactly as shown in Nextwave just doesn't work. But Machine Man's personality makeover works just fine.

Ben
08-05-2007, 08:07 AM
Nextwave itself really doesn't fit in continuity (Ellis himself said so on more than one occassion), but that doesn't mean that certain elements of the series or characterizations can't appear in the regular MU versions of those characters. But to try and say that everything that happened in nextwave happened in the 616 universe exactly as shown in Nextwave just doesn't work. But Machine Man's personality makeover works just fine.Just because they say it doesn't fit into continuity doesn't mean it doesn't. I don't see any problem fitting that series in.

Joe Kalicki
08-05-2007, 08:10 AM
Just because they say it doesn't fit into continuity doesn't mean it doesn't. I don't see any problem fitting that series in.

I agree. What about it doesn't fit?

Dermie
08-05-2007, 08:12 AM
Just because they say it doesn't fit into continuity doesn't mean it doesn't. I don't see any problem fitting that series in.

There were a number of continuity clashes throughout the series. Monica's origin was completely changed (she got her powers as an adult; she wasn't born with them). There was also reference to Monica's mom being dead, despite her being one of her supporting characters for years.
I don't see how Devil Dinosaur's appearance in Nextwave is compatible with his appearance over in Heroes For Hire. Etc.

Joe Kalicki
08-05-2007, 08:15 AM
There were a number of continuity clashes throughout the series. Monica's origin was completely changed (she got her powers as an adult; she wasn't born with them). There was also reference to Monica's mom being dead, despite her being one of her supporting characters for years.
I don't see how Devil Dinosaur's appearance in Nextwave is compatible with his appearance over in Heroes For Hire. Etc.

You're just not trying hard enough.

Jerome Gibbons
08-05-2007, 08:16 AM
When it comes to things like Nextwave and continuity, it's best to not think about it too hard. Just sit back and relax and have fun with it. Reed is clearly doing that by putting Machine Man in Ms. Marvel.

Dermie
08-05-2007, 08:23 AM
I think Nextwave fits with continuity best if you look at it like the old SENSATIONAL SHE-HULK series--we saw in issue #50 that the SENSATIONAL book was actually a liscenced comic book from within the MU about She-Hulk's adventures. Those events were technically in-continuity, but not exactly the way they were depicted, because they altered stuff for the comic version.

If you look at Nextwave in the same light--it technically happened, but not all of the details are exactly as shown--then it fits.

Joe Kalicki
08-05-2007, 08:27 AM
I think Nextwave fits with continuity best if you look at it like the old SENSATIONAL SHE-HULK series--we saw in issue #50 that the SENSATIONAL book was actually a liscenced comic book from within the MU about She-Hulk's adventures. Those events were technically in-continuity, but not exactly the way they were depicted, because they altered stuff for the comic version.

If you look at Nextwave in the same light--it technically happened, but not all of the details are exactly as shown--then it fits.

Yeah, but that's the same with every comic anyway, really.

GrandeMaestro F√ľnke
08-05-2007, 08:28 AM
I picked up this issue, and really enjoyed it. Sure its not Ellis, but Machine Man was funny and the other parts of the book were interesting.

AAlgar
08-05-2007, 08:30 AM
Can people seriously not enjoy a story if it's not in continuity?

Joe Kalicki
08-05-2007, 08:34 AM
Can people seriously not enjoy a story if it's not in continuity?

That's not really the point, is it?

AAlgar
08-05-2007, 08:37 AM
That's not really the point, is it?

Well, I tried to decipher the point and I kinda gave up. Best I can tell, the point is to suck the fun out of stuff by analyzing it to death.

Joe Kalicki
08-05-2007, 08:39 AM
Well, I tried to decipher the point and I kinda gave up. Best I can tell, the point is to suck the fun out of stuff by analyzing it to death.

Well, that's just a by product.

The point is, it's a great series and if it continues throughout the Marvel U there's no reason to be weirded out by it.

Ben
08-05-2007, 09:04 AM
Can people seriously not enjoy a story if it's not in continuity?Yes, but people throw stuff out of continuity too easily.

Caley Tibbittz
08-05-2007, 09:04 AM
Because I buy almost nothing the week it comes out. I'll get to it within the month.

Andreas
08-05-2007, 09:26 AM
Cool, I have to check whether my store still has a copy.

Andreas

changingshades
08-05-2007, 12:32 PM
Cool, I have to check whether my store still has a copy.

Andreas

there.that's the response I wanted

Matt O'Keefe
08-05-2007, 12:41 PM
Isn't that like saying that because I liked Stan Lee's Fantastic Four, I have to read the JMS stuff?

Ben
08-05-2007, 12:46 PM
Isn't that like saying that because I liked Stan Lee's Fantastic Four, I have to read the JMS stuff?It's more like saying that if you liked Stan Lee's FF, you might like JMS', so give it a try.

NickT
08-05-2007, 12:49 PM
Reguarding how Nextwave fits in, I see it that Nextwave happened, but not neccesarily in the exact same way as we saw it. Same as how a character can be light in light books and dark in dark books.

Ben
08-05-2007, 12:50 PM
Reguarding how Nextwave fits in, I see it that Nextwave happened, but not neccesarily in the exact same way as we saw it. Same as how a character can be light in light books and dark in dark books.That's going a little to far with it. It's like trying to find an in-story explanation for why Deadpool's jokes were funnier during Joe Kelly's run.

Joe Henderson
08-05-2007, 01:04 PM
I thought Reed did a great job capturing the Ellisian Machine Man voice.

NickT
08-05-2007, 01:07 PM
Nextwave in their other non-Ellis appearence made me laugh, so I'll give him a chance if I remember :)

Masculine Todd
08-05-2007, 01:39 PM
What do you mean "hey Nextwave fans, why didn't you pick up Ms. Marvel?"

I've been buying it since the first issue. Booya!

moonspider
08-05-2007, 01:41 PM
the chracters have become loved....give them time to shine!!!!


just shows you that they have become popular BECAUSE of nextwave, it happens, nothing wrong with that

changingshades
08-05-2007, 01:52 PM
What do you mean "hey Nextwave fans, why didn't you pick up Ms. Marvel?"

I've been buying it since the first issue. Booya!

yeah, todd, I'm sorry, but most of the board apparently needs schoolin'

Kefky
08-05-2007, 03:27 PM
This thread makes me slightly ashamed of being a nextwave fan.

Only slightly, though.

warrenellis
08-05-2007, 04:57 PM
1. Ellis didn't write it. Therefore it is not Nextwave. It is someone trying to imitate Ellis' writing.

2. Nextwave should not be something that enters continuity of other books.

3. Ellis Didn't write it.

4. Immonnen didn't draw it.

5. Ellis didn't write it.

6. You're teh ghey.



Fuck that noise. Let them play.

-- W

warrenellis
08-05-2007, 05:00 PM
Nextwave itself really doesn't fit in continuity (Ellis himself said so on more than one occassion),

No, I didn't. I said that NEXTWAVE was the ONLY book that WAS in regular Marvel continuity.

Do you remember what I said about all the other Marvel books? A year ago?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/100/272660859_ac10a4e308_o.jpg

That's right.

-- W

Ben
08-05-2007, 05:44 PM
No, I didn't. I said that NEXTWAVE was the ONLY book that WAS in regular Marvel continuity.

Do you remember what I said about all the other Marvel books? A year ago?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/100/272660859_ac10a4e308_o.jpg

That's right.

-- WSo that explains why Deadpool's jokes were funnier during Joe Kelly's run!!!

Jef UK
08-05-2007, 05:46 PM
I want a Nextwave over-sized hardcover, please.

Ben
08-05-2007, 05:48 PM
I want a Nextwave over-sized hardcover, please.How about hardcovered anal instead?

Jef UK
08-05-2007, 05:50 PM
How about hardcovered anal instead?

I don't see how that could be justified in continuity.

Ben
08-05-2007, 05:53 PM
I don't see how that could be justified in continuity.You're not trying hard enough. And by hard I mean erect. And by erect I mean that you're not putting forth enough effort.

Jef UK
08-05-2007, 05:55 PM
You're not trying hard enough. And by hard I mean erect. And by erect I mean that you're not putting forth enough effort.

So Immonen is drawing it? And by, "it" I mean, "my penis." And by, "drawing," I mean, "nuzzling."

Ben
08-05-2007, 05:58 PM
So Immonen is drawing it? And by, "it" I mean, "my penis." And by, "drawing," I mean, "nuzzling."Yes. And by yes I mean no. And by no I mean

http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/images/buttons/report.gif

Discussing creator's penis (a.k.a. poor fellowship)!!

Jef UK
08-05-2007, 06:03 PM
Yes. And by yes I mean no. And by no I mean

http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/images/buttons/report.gif

Discussing creator's penis (a.k.a. poor fellowship)!!

Yay, I'm a creator!

Ben
08-05-2007, 06:04 PM
Yay, I'm a creator!Oh no! What have I done?! My mistake!! And now Marvel has to assign you to a book!

Thudpucker
08-05-2007, 06:46 PM
I read the Machine Man appearance. It was awesome. His first line to Carol was gold.

What metal value would you give his second line?

warrenellis
08-05-2007, 06:58 PM
I want a Nextwave over-sized hardcover, please.

Why? Do you need large print?



###

Caley Tibbittz
08-05-2007, 07:02 PM
Why? Do you need large print?

If bigger isn't automatically better, I swear I'll throw out my Enzyte...

Jerome Gibbons
08-05-2007, 07:04 PM
I thought Reed did a great job capturing the Ellisian Machine Man voice.

I thought it was maybe a little more babbly than Ellis' Machine Man, but overall he got it down pretty well.


What metal value would you give his second line?

...I don't know, I can't remember the second line.

J. R. Scherer
08-05-2007, 07:20 PM
I agree. What about it doesn't fit?

I've only read the first five or so issues, but off the top of my head I can these things in those issues:

1.) Monica Rambeau is not a mutant, and actually was a competent and respected leader of the Avengers

2.) Fin Fang Foom is actually intelligent, and is not a simpleton

3.) Arishem the Celestial not only speaks in colloquial English, but throws up the 'loser' sign to Machine Man.


Nextwave was clearly purposefully written to not be in continuity.

changingshades
08-05-2007, 07:23 PM
I've only read the first five or so issues, but off the top of my head I can these things in those issues:

1.) Monica Rambeau is not a mutant, and actually was a competent and respected leader of the Avengers

2.) Fin Fang Foom is actually intelligent, and is not a simpleton

3.) Arishem the Celestial not only speaks in colloquial English, but throws up the 'loser' sign to Machine Man.


Nextwave was clearly purposefully written to not be in continuity.
you were clearly and purposefully written to not be in continuity

Ben
08-05-2007, 07:30 PM
I've only read the first five or so issues, but off the top of my head I can these things in those issues:

1.) Monica Rambeau is not a mutant, and actually was a competent and respected leader of the Avengers

2.) Fin Fang Foom is actually intelligent, and is not a simpleton

3.) Arishem the Celestial not only speaks in colloquial English, but throws up the 'loser' sign to Machine Man.


Nextwave was clearly purposefully written to not be in continuity.That stuff doesn't matter.

Jef UK
08-05-2007, 07:54 PM
Why? Do you need large print?



###

No, but I would like the entire series collected in one, nice format that would further show off Immonen's work.

Besides, don't you want more money anyway?

Dermie
08-05-2007, 07:56 PM
Yeah, but that's the same with every comic anyway, really.

No, its not. The regular Marvel Comics are supposed to be literal retellings of the heroes' actual adventures. The "Sensational She-Hulk" comic took creative lisence (this was explained on-panel in #50).


That stuff doesn't matter.

This is what pisses me off in threads like this. People ask what continuity problems there were, and when an accurate answer is provided, it gets dismissed as irrelevant.
Just because you don't care about the continuity stuff doesn't mean it "doesn't matter". For those of us who were fans of some of these characters prior to Nextwave, it does matter if their history is getting contradicted, etc. If it doesn't bother you, fine, but kindly don't dismiss the rest of us as irrelevant.

Masculine Todd
08-05-2007, 07:56 PM
You know who's cool? Brian Reed. Why? 'Cause Ms. Marvel is awesome. Don't pick it up for Machine Man (who's admittedly cool), pick it up 'cause it's just damn fun.

changingshades
08-05-2007, 07:56 PM
If he wanted more money, he'd be whoring himself out to Superman, Batman or ...X-men.

Moving on.

Jef UK
08-05-2007, 08:00 PM
No, its not. The regular Marvel Comics are supposed to be literal retellings of the heroes' actual adventures. The "Sensational She-Hulk" comic took creative lisence (this was explained on-panel in #50).



This is what pisses me off in threads like this. People ask what continuity problems there were, and when an accurate answer is provided, it gets dismissed as irrelevant.
Just because you don't care about the continuity stuff doesn't mean it "doesn't matter". For those of us who were fans of some of these characters prior to Nextwave, it does matter if their history is getting contradicted, etc. If it doesn't bother you, fine, but kindly don't dismiss the rest of us as irrelevant.

It really doesn't matter.

Matt O'Keefe
08-05-2007, 08:02 PM
It really doesn't matter.

Agreed. It doesn't take away any relevence away from the first time you read it, and doesn't negate your enjoyment.

Dermie
08-05-2007, 08:02 PM
You know who's cool? Brian Reed. Why? 'Cause Ms. Marvel is awesome. Don't pick it up for Machine Man (who's admittedly cool), pick it up 'cause it's just damn fun.

Seconded! :)

DeleriumTremens
08-05-2007, 08:05 PM
Fuck that noise. Let them play.

-- W

A-Men

Dave S.
08-05-2007, 09:20 PM
I'll tell you why I didn't pick it up:

Because I don't care about Ms. Marvel, at all, ever, and she's even PART of the reason I'm dropping Mighty Avengers when this arc is over. No amount of Ellis-esque Machine Man will make me pick up her book.

There are only three things that could make me consider picking up her book:

1) Warren Ellis starts writing it (It didn't make me pick up Thunderbolts, so who knows)

2) Dan Slott starts writing it.

3) GLA guest appearance (Squirrel Girl solo appearance won't count)

Ben
08-05-2007, 09:24 PM
I'll tell you why I didn't pick it up:

Because I don't care about Ms. Marvel, at all, ever, and she's even PART of the reason I'm dropping Mighty Avengers when this arc is over. No amount of Ellis-esque Machine Man will make me pick up her book.

There are only three things that could make me consider picking up her book:

1) Warren Ellis starts writing it (It didn't make me pick up Thunderbolts, so who knows)

2) Dan Slott starts writing it.

3) GLA guest appearance (Squirrel Girl solo appearance won't count)
WTF!!!!!???? Ms. Marvel is the hottest superhero lady ever!! She has a seventh sense!!! Not some bullshit sixth sense. A fucking SEVENTH SENSE!!!

Dave S.
08-05-2007, 09:25 PM
WTF!!!!!???? Ms. Marvel is the hottest superhero lady ever!! She has a seventh sense!!! Not some bullshit sixth sense. A fucking SEVENTH SENSE!!!

A fashion sense?

Jef UK
08-05-2007, 09:26 PM
I'll tell you why I didn't pick it up:

Because I don't care about Ms. Marvel, at all, ever, and she's even PART of the reason I'm dropping Mighty Avengers when this arc is over. No amount of Ellis-esque Machine Man will make me pick up her book.

There are only three things that could make me consider picking up her book:

1) Warren Ellis starts writing it (It didn't make me pick up Thunderbolts, so who knows)

2) Dan Slott starts writing it.

3) GLA guest appearance (Squirrel Girl solo appearance won't count)

Whoah, she's a PART of the reason? In all caps even? Holy shit, dude!

Ben
08-05-2007, 09:26 PM
http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/884/msmarvel01cvrane2.jpg

Ben
08-05-2007, 09:27 PM
A fashion sense?That's her sixth sense. Her seventh sense is magical somehow.

Also, she karate chops dudes in the ASS!

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i171/thedailynow/msmarvelKRAK.jpg

Jerome Gibbons
08-05-2007, 09:33 PM
Ms. Marvel is the balls, yo.

Dave S.
08-05-2007, 09:34 PM
The best thing she ever did was go into a coma and give Rogue some powers and an interesting backstory.

Ben
08-05-2007, 09:35 PM
The best thing she ever did was go into a coma and give Rogue some powers and an interesting backstory.http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/images/buttons/report.gif

Poor fellowship!

Jerome Gibbons
08-05-2007, 09:36 PM
The best thing she ever did was go into a coma and give Rogue some powers and an interesting backstory.

Actually, no, the best thing she did was make out with Wonder Man as a strategy to fight MODOK. Because he *hates* seeing people making out. It gives him the silly willies.

Ben
08-05-2007, 09:37 PM
Actually, no, the best thing she did was make out with Wonder Man as a strategy to fight MODOK. Because *hates* seeing people making out. It gives him the silly willies.Well, he's not designed for seeing people make out. He's designed ONLY FOR KILLING!

Dave S.
08-05-2007, 09:39 PM
Actually, no, the best thing she did was make out with Wonder Man as a strategy to fight MODOK. Because he *hates* seeing people making out. It gives him the silly willies.

Everyone knows the best way to take down MODOK is to shove nuts in his circuits.

Jerome Gibbons
08-05-2007, 09:40 PM
Well, he's not designed for seeing people make out. He's designed ONLY FOR KILLING!

A recent issue of Ms. Marvel revealed that originally MODOK was actually called MODOC - Mental Organism Designed Only for Copulating - but he changed it to MODOK after he failed at his prime directive.

Ben
08-05-2007, 09:41 PM
A recent issue of Ms. Marvel revealed that originally MODOK was actually called MODOC - Mental Organism Designed Only for Copulating - but he changed it to MODOK after he failed at his prime directive.Dammit, why won't Marvel release more Ms. Marvel TPBs!!!! ARGH!

Dermie
08-06-2007, 06:37 AM
WTF!!!!!???? Ms. Marvel is the hottest superhero lady ever!! She has a seventh sense!!! Not some bullshit sixth sense. A fucking SEVENTH SENSE!!!

She used to, anyway--that was one of the powers she lost back when Rogue absorbed her powers way back when.

Joe Kalicki
08-06-2007, 03:55 PM
The point isn't that continuity doesn't matter, it's that something shouldn't automatically be removed from continuity just because of a few hiccups.

J. R. Scherer
08-06-2007, 08:08 PM
The point isn't that continuity doesn't matter, it's that something shouldn't automatically be removed from continuity just because of a few hiccups.

Nextwave is not a 'hiccup', though. It's specifically designed to be non-MU canon. No one's talking about 'removing' it from continuity, because the book never was in-continuity to begin with.

Joe Kalicki
08-06-2007, 08:09 PM
Nextwave is not a 'hiccup', though. It's specifically designed to be non-MU canon. No one's talking about 'removing' it from continuity, because the book never was in-continuity to begin with.

Well, clearly you're mistaken, as it's being used in continuity.

Dermie
08-06-2007, 08:25 PM
Well, clearly you're mistaken, as it's being used in continuity.

Not necessarily. Most of those characters already existed in continity before Nextwave. Just because they are taking elements from Nextwave and applying them with the in-continuity versions doesn't mean that Nextwave, as a whole, is considered to be 100% in-continuity.

J. R. Scherer
08-06-2007, 08:37 PM
Well, clearly you're mistaken, as it's being used in continuity.

I don't see how you'd come to the conclusion that I'm mistaken. So Brian Reed has decided to use a Machine Man that's based on the Nextwave version. BFD. Doesn't make the Nextwave series MU canon. Warren Ellis said it was out of continuity himself in this very thread (by saying that it was all of the other Marvel books that were actually out of Nextwave's continuity.)
http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showpost.php?p=3417945&postcount=49

Ben
08-06-2007, 08:37 PM
Not necessarily. Most of those characters already existed in continity before Nextwave. Just because they are taking elements from Nextwave and applying them with the in-continuity versions doesn't mean that Nextwave, as a whole, is considered to be 100% in-continuity.I say it is, and I don't see anything that contradicts that! Nyah!

Ben
08-06-2007, 08:39 PM
I don't see how you'd come to the conclusion that I'm mistaken. So Brian Reed has decided to use a Machine Man that's based on the Nextwave version. BFD. Doesn't make the Nextwave series MU canon. Warren Ellis said it was out of continuity himself in this very thread (by saying that it was all of the other Marvel books that were actually out of Nextwave's continuity.)
http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showpost.php?p=3417945&postcount=49Everything's canon unless something in the comic is SO OUTRAGEOUS that it can't possibly work with the rest of the Marvel Universe. It's canon by default. And, as we already discussed in this thread, there's nothing so crazy in the NExtwave books that prevent them from being in-continuity. It doesn't matter what Ellis says (and I think his answer is more to mock the very question of "canon or not canon" than to actually give an answer). End of discussion.

J. R. Scherer
08-06-2007, 08:48 PM
Everything's canon unless something in the comic is SO OUTRAGEOUS that it can't possibly work with the rest of the Marvel Universe. It's canon by default. And, as we already discussed in this thread, there's nothing so crazy in the NExtwave books that prevent them from being in-continuity. It doesn't matter what Ellis says (and I think his answer is more to mock the very question of "canon or not canon" than to actually give an answer). End of discussion.

"Hey, look at me, I'm Ben, and things are the way I say they are because I want them to be! End of discussion!"

You're like the religious side of the Creationism vs Evolution argument here.

Joe Kalicki
08-06-2007, 08:48 PM
I say it is, and I don't see anything that contradicts that! Nyah!

Basically, this is the way it is for both sides until we get something concrete within the comics themselves one way or the other.

Ben
08-06-2007, 08:49 PM
"Hey, look at me, I'm Ben, and things are the way I say they are because I want them to be! End of discussion!"

You're like the religious side of the Creationism vs Evolution argument here.I like how you didn't bother to counter anything I had to say.

Ben
08-06-2007, 08:50 PM
Basically, this is the way it is for both sides until we get something concrete within the comics themselves one way or the other.So who cares? Unless something comes along that directly contradicts something, your own personal "canon" is all that really matters. Since, y'know, you're the one reading and enjoying the books. Whatever makes it more fun for you (though, I can't imagine it's more fun to pretend certain stuff didn't happen).

J. R. Scherer
08-06-2007, 08:50 PM
I like how you didn't bother to counter anything I had to say.

What's to counter? You already said 'it doesn't matter'.

J. R. Scherer
08-06-2007, 08:51 PM
So who cares? Unless something comes along that directly contradicts something, your own personal "canon" is all that really matters. Since, y'know, you're the one reading and enjoying the books. Whatever makes it more fun for you (though, I can't imagine it's more fun to pretend certain stuff didn't happen).

Yeah, like the stuff that's depicted in Nextwave.

Ben
08-06-2007, 08:54 PM
Yeah, like the stuff that's depicted in Nextwave.We've already been through this. Something like "Fin Fang Foom never talked so much about his pants before!" is not a reason to knock it out of continuity for me. If it is for you, great. Enjoy your non-canon comics!

J. R. Scherer
08-06-2007, 09:07 PM
We've already been through this. Something like "Fin Fang Foom never talked so much about his pants before!" is not a reason to knock it out of continuity for me. If it is for you, great. Enjoy your non-canon comics!

It also changes Monica Rambeau's origin and her history with the Avengers entirely. It turns the Celestials into 'big space guys' instead of unknowable space gods. That's just the stuff I've read so far (I'm picking up both trades once they're both available in softcover). I enjoy the book quite a bit. I think it's great fun. The Celestials calling Machine Man a '*** robot' made me laugh out loud. Just because I like it and want more of it doesn't mean that it fits into the Marvel Universe, though.

Ben
08-06-2007, 09:21 PM
It also changes Monica Rambeau's origin and her history with the Avengers entirely. It turns the Celestials into 'big space guys' instead of unknowable space gods. That's just the stuff I've read so far (I'm picking up both trades once they're both available in softcover). I enjoy the book quite a bit. I think it's great fun. The Celestials calling Machine Man a '*** robot' made me laugh out loud. Just because I like it and want more of it doesn't mean that it fits into the Marvel Universe, though.Those were all flashbacks!

J. R. Scherer
08-06-2007, 09:27 PM
Those were all flashbacks!

I guess that makes as much sense as the extremely petty and meanspirited thought balloons that Bendis put in Mighty Avengers.

Colby
08-06-2007, 09:34 PM
Would you also like to see Boom Boom barely smart enough to write her own name in other Marvel books? Why integrate a book you have to ignore parts of? Machine Man's robot brain needing beer as a giant can opener shoots out of his chest just doesn't jibe with the current (too-)serious tone of the Marvel U for me...

Nah, c'mon, you don't have to put every single element of a character in a book when they make an appearance. Daredevil isn't a ninja and a lawyer and a son and a husband and former inmate every time he shows up, those aspects are only mentioned when they're relevant.


I guess that makes as much sense as the extremely petty and meanspirited thought balloons that Bendis put in Mighty Avengers.

Yeahbutwhat?

J. R. Scherer
08-06-2007, 09:44 PM
Yeahbutwhat?
Monica Rambeau 'remembering' Captain America treating her like dirt is about the same as characters that were once decent, heroic people now being revealed to be small minded egotistical jerks by their thought balloons in Mighty Avengers.

Matthew Brown
08-06-2007, 09:58 PM
Monica Rambeau 'remembering' Captain America treating her like dirt is about the same as characters that were once decent, heroic people now being revealed to be small minded egotistical jerks by their thought balloons in Mighty Avengers.

The false flashbacks could be chalked up to unreliable narrator (the characters themselves, not Warren).

Jef UK
08-06-2007, 10:01 PM
I don't see how you'd come to the conclusion that I'm mistaken. So Brian Reed has decided to use a Machine Man that's based on the Nextwave version. BFD. Doesn't make the Nextwave series MU canon. Warren Ellis said it was out of continuity himself in this very thread (by saying that it was all of the other Marvel books that were actually out of Nextwave's continuity.)
http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showpost.php?p=3417945&postcount=49

I don't see how you can't agree that the canon of comics fluctuates. With 50 years of history, if not more, you'd be silly to try and reconcile it all. Nextwave happened in the Marvel U. whether it contradicts other aspects of the Marvel U. or not. Sometimes you act like it's reporting an actual history (and even true history is succeptible to revision; the literature of history is revision) rather than comics being a serialized form of storytelling as told by literally hundreds of storytellers operating within a very vague shared universe--that doesn't really exist. Come up with your no-prize answers and move on.

Colby
08-06-2007, 10:02 PM
Monica Rambeau 'remembering' Captain America treating her like dirt is about the same as characters that were once decent, heroic people now being revealed to be small minded egotistical jerks by their thought balloons in Mighty Avengers.

Wow, I'm just surprised, because I haven't read the thought balloons anywhere NEARLY as negative as that.

J. R. Scherer
08-06-2007, 10:03 PM
The false flashbacks could be chalked up to unreliable narrator (the characters themselves, not Warren).

I get that. That's why I said that making Monica Rambeau a vindictive bitch who is twisting what 'really' happened when she was in the Avengers into that 'flashback' is about the same as the characterization shown in Mighty Avengers right now.

J. R. Scherer
08-06-2007, 10:05 PM
I don't see how you can't agree that the canon of comics fluctuates. With 50 years of history, if not more, you'd be silly to try and reconcile it all. Nextwave happened in the Marvel U. whether it contradicts other aspects of the Marvel U. or not. Sometimes you act like it's reporting an actual history (and even true history is succeptible to revision; the literature of history is revision) rather than comics being a serialized form of storytelling as told by literally hundreds of storytellers operating within a very vague shared universe--that doesn't really exist. Come up with your no-prize answers and move on.

The Nextwave series occuring in an alternate universe, like the ones shown in What If and Exiles works just fine for me.

J. R. Scherer
08-06-2007, 10:06 PM
Wow, I'm just surprised, because I haven't read the thought balloons anywhere NEARLY as negative as that.

Really? Not even the one where Ms. Marvel mentally told Hank Pym to die?

Ben
08-06-2007, 10:18 PM
Really? Not even the one where Ms. Marvel mentally told Hank Pym to die?I'm sure you've never thought that about someone you didn't actually want to die...

Colby
08-06-2007, 11:11 PM
Really? Not even the one where Ms. Marvel mentally told Hank Pym to die?

Nope. It rang true to me for several reasons:

1) It was just an idle thought with little meaning behind it. We've all had ideas that we don't mean pop into our heads- like that time you randomly pictured Abe Vigoda naked while you were boning my mom.

2) Carol was under a lot of pressure, and her frustration would cause her to have more hostile thoughts.

3) She didn't act on those thoughts in anyway; thus, if she did genuinely want Pym to die, she's actually more heroic because she didn't act on that impulse.

4) Pym's history gives a lot of the characters little reason to trust him, even though he's redeemed himself.

5) Carol's been shown to hold a grudge before, so she's one of the more likely Avengers to not completely forgive Pym.

I guess I just don't see these characters as less heroic because they have petty thoughts. It makes them human, sure, but that makes them more interesting, and when they overcome those thoughts, they're MORE heroic.

Colby
08-06-2007, 11:11 PM
I'm sure you've never thought that about someone you didn't actually want to die...

At the rate this thread is going, he's probably thinking it about you, but certainly meaning it. ;)

Matt O'Keefe
08-06-2007, 11:36 PM
Why does it matter whether or not it's "in continuity"? You enjoyed it when you read, do these minor details tarnish that?

Joe Kalicki
08-06-2007, 11:47 PM
Why does it matter whether or not it's "in continuity"? You enjoyed it when you read, do these minor details tarnish that?

It could, yeah.

If you read something knowing it's not in continuity, fine, it could be great.

But if it's in continuity there are other considerations than the story itself, including how it fits or contradicts previous stories or how it affects the characters from then on out.

Matt O'Keefe
08-06-2007, 11:50 PM
It could, yeah.

If you read something knowing it's not in continuity, fine, it could be great.

But if it's in continuity there are other considerations than the story itself, including how it fits or contradicts previous stories or how it affects the characters from then on out.

So you can't enjoy it because you suddenly realize that it's something that stands alone? That's sounds like saying that Alan Moore's Swamp thing isn't as good because the character is seperate from the DCU. Why not just enjoy it and not think about fictional continuity that in reality makes no sense whatsoever.

Joe Kalicki
08-06-2007, 11:57 PM
So you can't enjoy it because you suddenly realize that it's something that stands alone? That's sounds like saying that Alan Moore's Swamp thing isn't as good because the character is seperate from the DCU. Why not just enjoy it and not think about fictional continuity that in reality makes no sense whatsoever.

That's not what I'm saying at all. If it stands alone, fine, that's fantastic. But if it's in continuity and openly contradicts what's come before (which Moore's Swamp Thing actually did, but whatever), then that could definately effect the enjoyment of the story and there's no reason it shouldn't.

A book doesn't have to refer to matters of continuity at all, but if it does it should get it right. That's the nature of continuity and these comic book universes. It is important.

I'm not unsympathetic with JR in this belief, I'm just more willing to make things fit rather than just tossing them out.

J. R. Scherer
08-07-2007, 01:30 PM
I'm sure you've never thought that about someone you didn't actually want to die...

I suppose that wanting to kill someone and wishing they would simply keel over are in the same category. Thankfully, I don't have super powers.

I don't see the point of including thought balloons if they're there only to capture random thoughts that don't actually capture how the character truly feels. It seems very off to me that someone with as much experience with the Avengers as Carol Danvers would actively be hoping for any of them to die.

Pat Loika
08-07-2007, 01:44 PM
I don't see the point of including thought balloons if they're there only to capture random thoughts that don't actually capture how the character truly feels. It seems very off to me that someone with as much experience with the Avengers as Carol Danvers would actively be hoping for any of them to die.

Everyone can have that vulnerable moment where you would think of unspeakable things towards your friends or even family. Considering what was going on with Carol and everything around her, I can understand why she'd have such a thought.

J. R. Scherer
08-07-2007, 02:54 PM
Everyone can have that vulnerable moment where you would think of unspeakable things towards your friends or even family. Considering what was going on with Carol and everything around her, I can understand why she'd have such a thought.

Perhaps, but it's definitely not the only example of petty thoughts popping up in MA.

RegularJoe
08-07-2007, 03:26 PM
Perhaps, but it's definitely not the only example of petty thoughts popping up in MA.

i think some of the MA thought balloons are internal examples of spider-man's external quibs. he says that stuff 'cause A) he's a smart-ass and B) sometimes you're so terrified you're looking for something, anything, to laugh at. and if you can't find something to laugh at, you make something to laugh at. these thoughts, the petty ones or the funny ones, aren't TRUE deep inner thoughts but the surface level 'oh crap' kinda things that pop into your head when stressed.

The Hodag
08-07-2007, 03:48 PM
Perhaps, but it's definitely not the only example of petty thoughts popping up in MA.

That seems to be Bendis's approach to most of the Marvel pantheon, bringing the characters to a more human - or, put more critically - compromised level. Hawkeye sleeping with an amnesiac Scarlet Witch, the New Avengers bringing on Wolverine for dirty work, Reed called out as a crap husband in Illuminati...all that stuff. I've come to realize it comes with the Bendis package deal and I wouldn't expect him to ever move away from it.

It's not my thing either.

Vonn Hennigar
08-07-2007, 03:51 PM
That seems to be Bendis's approach to most of the Marvel pantheon, bringing the characters to a more human - or, put more critically - compromised level. Hawkeye sleeping with an amnesiac Scarlet Witch, the New Avengers bringing on Wolverine for dirty work, Reed called out as a crap husband in Illuminati...all that stuff. I've come to realize it comes with the Bendis package deal and I wouldn't expect him to ever move away from it.

It's not my thing either.

Humanizing Marvel Characters???

OH THE HUMANITY!!!!

Stan Lee must be spinning in his luxury gold plated bed.

The Hodag
08-07-2007, 03:56 PM
Humanizing Marvel Characters???

OH THE HUMANITY!!!!

Stan Lee must be spinning in his luxury gold plated bed.

There's degrees of everything. I grew up a Marvel guy, so I like humanization. But I also like a greater degree of nobility than Bendis invests in the characters.

Pretty simple.

Masculine Todd
08-07-2007, 04:14 PM
Wait, why does it matter if it's canon or not or whatever? It was an awesome book. Now we see characters and they're Nextwave persona's show up in other awesome books. That's all I need to know.

Vonn Hennigar
08-07-2007, 04:16 PM
Wait, why does it matter if it's canon or not or whatever? It was an awesome book. Now we see characters and they're Nextwave persona's show up in other awesome books. That's all I need to know.

You're new name is fucking terrible.

Plus Nextwave is Canon. So i have spoken so let it come to be.

Jonathan Callan
08-07-2007, 04:28 PM
2. Nextwave should not be something that enters continuity of other books.


I've never understood this notion. To me, my first instinct when I loved Nextwave was a desire to see how it fits into the continuity of other books. I really want to see if Tony Stark knows what the fuck H.A.T.E. is and if it just wasn't worth his time or what. Also - Nextwave/New Avengers cross-over would be sick.

Man... I'm talking like a fanboy now.

J. R. Scherer
08-08-2007, 06:47 AM
Humanizing Marvel Characters???

OH THE HUMANITY!!!!

Stan Lee must be spinning in his luxury gold plated bed.

I wouldn't call it 'humanizing' them myself. More like 'sleazing them up'.

Why does every single superhero in Bendis' Avengers books need to be portrayed as a complete and utter asshole and/or incompetent?

Jef UK
08-08-2007, 06:49 AM
IWhy does every single superhero in Bendis' Avengers books need to be portrayed as a complete and utter asshole and/or incompetent?

I think that's a poor, inacurrate assesment of Bendis' Avengers characters.

Masculine Todd
08-08-2007, 07:17 AM
You're new name is fucking amazing.


Fixed!

Yeah, I know.

J. R. Scherer
08-08-2007, 08:14 AM
I think that's a poor, inacurrate assesment of Bendis' Avengers characters.

They aren't very heroic, that's for certain.

Colby
08-08-2007, 09:23 AM
They aren't very heroic, that's for certain.

How so? They may have some petty thoughts, but they don't ACT on those thoughts. That makes them more heroic, because they overcome their own weaknesses to do the right thing.

J. R. Scherer
08-08-2007, 12:32 PM
How so? They may have some petty thoughts, but they don't ACT on those thoughts. That makes them more heroic, because they overcome their own weaknesses to do the right thing.

It makes them appear two-faced and petty. It makes them look less heroic and more that they're simply interested in furthering their careers.

Colby
08-08-2007, 01:17 PM
It makes them appear two-faced and petty. It makes them look less heroic and more that they're simply interested in furthering their careers.

Except they're obviously not because they don't ACT on those petty thoughts.

I mean, everyone has less than noble thoughts, everyone gets jealous, self-centered and vengeful from time to time. The trick is if you act on those impulses or not, and since the MAs don't (or at least haven't yet), you can't really condemn them for it. Like I said, it makes them more heroic because they know- and resist- the temptation of their darker impulses.

spencerdidyrmom
08-08-2007, 03:39 PM
Wasn't there some SDCC annoucement about MA being reprinted without the thought balloons?

Ben
08-08-2007, 03:40 PM
Wasn't there some SDCC annoucement about MA being reprinted without the thought balloons?Huh? That would be pretty stupid. That would be like reprinting MA without Ms. Marvel's hot body!

J. R. Scherer
08-08-2007, 03:41 PM
Except they're obviously not because they don't ACT on those petty thoughts.

I mean, everyone has less than noble thoughts, everyone gets jealous, self-centered and vengeful from time to time. The trick is if you act on those impulses or not, and since the MAs don't (or at least haven't yet), you can't really condemn them for it. Like I said, it makes them more heroic because they know- and resist- the temptation of their darker impulses.

I don't condemn the characters, silly goose. I condemn Bendis. :rollout:

spencerdidyrmom
08-08-2007, 03:45 PM
Huh? That would be pretty stupid. That would be like reprinting MA without Ms. Marvel's hot body!

Well, then, Bendis still owes me money.