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View Full Version : Marc Guggenheim: "Bart was Jar-Jar." (FLASH SPOILERS)



Kefky
07-04-2007, 07:32 PM
http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=119421


MG: I definitely realized that they were asking me to do something that was going to have an impact. It’s funny – and people may not believe me when I say this, but I actually accepted the job so I could kill Bart for his own good.

NRAMA: Whaaa-at?

MG: Bart was going to die anyway, whether I pulled the trigger or not, and I was at least able to give him the send off that I wanted to give him. There were numerous reasons to take the gig when it was offered to me, but one of them was actually Jar Jar Binks.

NRAMA: Again, whaaa-at?

MG: [laughs] Bear with me. Before I get into it, I need to set the record straight and take us back in time to when Bart first became the Flash – there was a lot of backlash, and there were a lot of people screaming for him to die. In fact, one of the things that I find both humorous and gratifying in his death is that there are a lot of people saying that he shouldn’t have died. Doesn’t anyone remember how many people wanted him to die?

Where Jar Jar comes into it is, after Episode I, and everyone hated Jar Jar and everyone wanted him to die in the second movie, I thought it would be really cool if, through the course of Episode II and III, turned Jar Jar into the coolest character ever. Made Jar Jar Han Solo and Boba Fett combined, and then have Darth Vader kill him at the end of Episode III. People would scream, but Lucas could then say, “What? You all wanted him dead, and I killed him.”

I thought that, with Bart, there was an opportunity to do that. He was going to die anyway – the decision had been made. So I decided to do whatever I could over the course of those five issues to make Bart as cool as possible so that all the people who were screaming for his death were saying exactly what they are now – Bart didn’t have to die.

So, there you go, Jar Jar inspired my story for these final five issues.

Nice to see someone admit it in the open like this.

~Hernandez~
07-04-2007, 07:37 PM
Um, how did he die?

Might wanna mark spoilers, by the way.

Ray G.
07-04-2007, 07:39 PM
Oh, fucking A.

That would only be a legit comparison if Jar Jar was a universally beloved character before they loused him up beyond recognition. :frustrat:

Simps
07-04-2007, 07:52 PM
Oh, fucking A.

That would only be a legit comparison if Jar Jar was a universally beloved character before they loused him up beyond recognition. :frustrat:
Internet posters were pretty incensed at the idea of him becoming Flash, so I think his analogy is spot on. People may have loved Bart, but they bitched and moaned about "what he had become."

Ray G.
07-04-2007, 07:59 PM
Internet posters were pretty incensed at the idea of him becoming Flash, so I think his analogy is spot on. People may have loved Bart, but they bitched and moaned about "what he had become."

My point exactly. Jar Jar as a character was loathed from the moment he appeared on screen. In the case of Bart, it wasn't hate towards Bart specifically, but hate towards A.) the radical changes to his character, and B.) the sidelining of an incredibly popular character, Wally West. Very little of the actual fan reaction consisted of "We hate Bart! Kill him already!". Most people I saw wanted DC to find an end-run to make him Kid Flash again.

Mylazycat
07-04-2007, 07:59 PM
So, he was pre-determined to die? At what point? When he became Flash? Before he became Flash? Seven issues into becoming Flash?

Jef UK
07-04-2007, 08:03 PM
If you put a statement in quotation marks and attribute that statement to an individual, you should make sure that the individual actually made the statement quoted. Marc Guggenheim did not say, "Bart was Jar-Jar."

Simps
07-04-2007, 08:05 PM
My point exactly. Jar Jar as a character was loathed from the moment he appeared on screen. In the case of Bart, it wasn't hate towards Bart specifically, but hate towards A.) the radical changes to his character, and B.) the sidelining of an incredibly popular character, Wally West. Very little of the actual fan reaction consisted of "We hate Bart! Kill him already!". Most people I saw wanted DC to find an end-run to make him Kid Flash again.
You're nitpicking and over analyzing. He took a scenario people hated, and made them fall in love with it by the time he was done. He had no control over the beginning or end, just how he got there.

Ray G.
07-04-2007, 08:11 PM
You're nitpicking and over analyzing. He took a scenario people hated, and made them fall in love with it by the time he was done. He had no control over the beginning or end, just how he got there.

I'm not arguing he did a great job, I'm just saying the Jar Jar analogy doesn't fit for me.

bradical
07-04-2007, 08:30 PM
well, at least wally's back

The Hodag
07-04-2007, 08:40 PM
Some genius thinking at work here:

"Audiences didn't like a move we made. Let's punish them by making them almost like it...then whisking it away."

And DC's really in love with that style of thinking lately: Blue Beetle's off the radar, so let's make him cool just in time to kill him. The Question's off the radar, so let's make him cool just in time to kill him. Elongated Man's off the radar, so let's make him cool just in time to rape and kill his wife and then get him killed too.
And now Bart. I don't even give a crap about Bart, but why kill him? I think it was Christopher Priest who said if you don't like a character, "just put them on a bus" until someone's got an idea about what to do with them. Sacrificing them for a quickie drama fuck is just nihilistic.

I guess it's all a spin-off of Barry Allen's death. He'd fallen off the radar, they killed him, and because it was so rare in those days audiences ate it up. These days, though? The pattern's looking about as fresh as Barry's corpse.

nick maynard
07-04-2007, 08:53 PM
I'm not arguing he did a great job, I'm just saying the Jar Jar analogy doesn't fit for me.

apparently it didnt fit for guggenheim either, because he never made it. what he did with bart was something he thought would have been awesome to do to jar jar. thats all.

Masculine Todd
07-04-2007, 08:57 PM
Regardless of how a lot of older fans feel, DC's stunt has pulled in some new readers.

I know that I, for one, outside maybe the last 20 or so issues of Geoff Johns' Flash run, had never read much Flash save for his JLA appearances. I tried the first arc of Fastest Man Alive and didn't dig it and did not have much interest in the Flash franchise (though I was invested in Bart as I loved him in Johns' Teen Titans, but he just felt so different here that I didn't care to continue).

Then this whole scenario with Bart dying out of nowhere, the hype surrounding Waid's return and the powerful and shocking nature of #13 have brought much atticipation from new readers such as myself. I'm on board for Waid's run now as a result of Bart's death and Wally's return. I know a lot of others who will dive into The Flash world as a result as well.

Say what you will, but had nothing changed following Infinite Crisis in the realm of The Flashes and Wally carried on as Flash in his own series, I doubt there would be as much hype or sales spikes as we're going to see from a year-long absence, the death of his protege' who took the mantle during his leave of duty, and his return. Sounds like a good investment on DC's part.

bradical
07-04-2007, 08:58 PM
apparently it didnt fit for guggenheim either, because he never made it. what he did with bart was something he thought would have been awesome to do to jar jar. thats all.

they should of killed jar jar.

The Hodag
07-04-2007, 09:06 PM
Regardless of how a lot of older fans feel, DC's stunt has pulled in some new readers.

Temporarily, maybe, but in general DC's getting its ass handed to it by Marvel these days and is running dangerously close to eroding reader confidence with fizzling events and the whole bloodthirsty approach. We'll see if Bart's death (and all the others) are really a good investment by seeing how overall sales pan out in the next year or so.

auritech
07-04-2007, 09:11 PM
they should of killed jar jar.

I still think killing Jar Jar in Attack of the Clones would not have made the Phantom Menace a better movie.

Petey Parker
07-04-2007, 09:12 PM
Arrgh damnit I shouldn't have looked at this topic.

chazbot
07-04-2007, 09:17 PM
It is such bullshit. Write a good story and the fans will enjoy it. Make the characters matter, make the story matter...
Turn an amazing character into a caricature and fans will moan at the crap. Kill him off because you want a stunt instead of simply depowering him, and you can kiss my ass.

The Hodag
07-04-2007, 09:24 PM
It is such bullshit. Write a good story and the fans will enjoy it. Make the characters matter, make the story matter...
Turn an amazing character into a caricature and fans will moan at the crap. Kill him off because you want a stunt instead of simply depowering him, and you can kiss my ass.

S'true. For the first half of the first issue of Identity Crisis, I was totally into how Meltzer was characterizing Elongated Man. He was smart, witty, a little goofy, a little paternal...it was great. All that dialogue between Elongated Man and Firehawk was just great and showcased instantly how a totally forgotten character could be reinvented with good writing. I would have LOVED to have seen more of that character. And more of Blue Beetle as he was portrayed before Max Lord but a bullet in his head.

I know guys like Meltzer and Johns have some damn good writing chops. I just wish to hell they were applying them toward a more worthy cause than cheap drama.

Masculine Todd
07-04-2007, 09:48 PM
Temporarily, maybe, but in general DC's getting its ass handed to it by Marvel these days.

This is debatable.

Matt O'Keefe
07-04-2007, 09:49 PM
This is debatable.

Not really, looking at the sales.


Some genius thinking at work here:

"Audiences didn't like a move we made. Let's punish them by making them almost like it...then whisking it away."

And DC's really in love with that style of thinking lately: Blue Beetle's off the radar, so let's make him cool just in time to kill him. The Question's off the radar, so let's make him cool just in time to kill him. Elongated Man's off the radar, so let's make him cool just in time to rape and kill his wife and then get him killed too.
And now Bart. I don't even give a crap about Bart, but why kill him? I think it was Christopher Priest who said if you don't like a character, "just put them on a bus" until someone's got an idea about what to do with them. Sacrificing them for a quickie drama fuck is just nihilistic.

I guess it's all a spin-off of Barry Allen's death. He'd fallen off the radar, they killed him, and because it was so rare in those days audiences ate it up. These days, though? The pattern's looking about as fresh as Barry's corpse.

In no way was Elongated Man off the radar after Identity Crisis.

As I've said, I think DC decided to kill him after they saw the sales for that first arc plummet.

The Hodag
07-04-2007, 10:04 PM
In no way was Elongated Man off the radar after Identity Crisis.

As I've said, I think DC decided to kill him after they saw the sales for that first arc plummet.

Oh, it still ties into my overall criticism: character goes stale, falls off the radar...WHATEVER...and the solution is to kill him?! It's absurd, nihilistic, and shortsighted.

Matt O'Keefe
07-04-2007, 10:06 PM
Oh, it still ties into my overall criticism: character goes stale, falls off the radar...WHATEVER...and the solution is to kill him?! It's absurd, nihilistic, and shortsighted.

I agree, but I don't consider Elongated Man to be one of those cases. After Identity Crisis he had a lot of momentum going.

Marcdachamp
07-04-2007, 11:02 PM
Elongated Man died?

DC pussed out. It's that simple.

Kevinroc
07-04-2007, 11:12 PM
Temporarily, maybe, but in general DC's getting its ass handed to it by Marvel these days and is running dangerously close to eroding reader confidence with fizzling events and the whole bloodthirsty approach. We'll see if Bart's death (and all the others) are really a good investment by seeing how overall sales pan out in the next year or so.

You put this better than I could have.

The fact is that Bart's death shows exactly what is wrong with DC Comics these days.

Dr. Omega
07-05-2007, 12:00 AM
Let's not forget the real tragedy of Bart. Chronologically, he was about 5 years old.

His speed made him age too quickly. That's why he was brought to the past in the first place.

DC killed a minor for a cheap thrill.

As for the DC vs. Marvel factor. Marvel is kicking DC's ass all over the place. Look at sales. DC has about 3 books that put out over 100k copies. Marvel has about a dozen, with a lot of books just under. Look at message boards. Hell, I am a 30+yr DC-holic and I have all but abandoned them. And Marvel is looking really interesting right now. Their stories make sense and have a down-to-earth, relatable quality that DC has lost. DC only knows ridiculous cosmic grandeur stuff anymore.

Dr. Ω

Joe Kalicki
07-05-2007, 12:15 AM
Yeah, Bart would still be Flash is he didn't lose, what, 70% of sales during the first arc?

I hate what they did, first making Bart Flash (actually, making him Kid Flash sucked, too), then making him a good Flash just to kill him off. I would've stayed with the book for the long haul the way things were going, but now. . . I've read my last Flash book for a good long while.

Ashwin Pande
07-05-2007, 01:13 AM
Oh, it still ties into my overall criticism: character goes stale, falls off the radar...WHATEVER...and the solution is to kill him?! It's absurd, nihilistic, and shortsighted.

how is it nihilistic?


Let's not forget the real tragedy of Bart. Chronologically, he was about 5 years old.

His speed made him age too quickly. That's why he was brought to the past in the first place.

DC killed a minor for a cheap thrill.

Come on... I hate DC's change in direction as much as (if not more so) than a lot of people but going there is just getting more involved than anyone ought to.


As for the DC vs. Marvel factor. Marvel is kicking DC's ass all over the place. Look at sales. DC has about 3 books that put out over 100k copies. Marvel has about a dozen, with a lot of books just under. Look at message boards. Hell, I am a 30+yr DC-holic and I have all but abandoned them. And Marvel is looking really interesting right now. Their stories make sense and have a down-to-earth, relatable quality that DC has lost. DC only knows ridiculous cosmic grandeur stuff anymore.

Marvel is beating DC at sales but this has been the case for a good few years now. However.. and this is coming from a person who really wants to give Dan DiDio a good talking to or something.. to be fair.. a lot of DC titles are selling better than ever. Wonder Woman is selling 70,000 copies. Why? I have no fucking clue. The book is abysmal and wrong. But when Rucka was on the book it didn't sell more than 30k. Even when Johns was on Flash it didn't sell more than 35k. DiDio made it sell 80k... ok so it tanked pretty badly after that.. but still. The point is DC did pretty well sales wise last year and could possibly have made more money than Marvel with the 52 weekly cha-ching.

I agree DC stories make no sense now. They aren't relateable at all for me. But apparently this shit is selling. Don't ask me why.. I don't get it... but for some reason it's working.

I don't like this kind of thinking. 'This character's going to die.. so I'll make 'em like him! MWAHAHAHA! I WIN!!' I'm glad he was able to make fans like the character but talking about it like this... I don't appreciate this kind of attitude from writers and it furthers my belief that the Editors now regard these characters as little more than toys to be played with and thrown away whenever they get bored with them.

The Hodag
07-05-2007, 01:32 AM
how is it nihilistic?

In a very literal sense, DC is embracing nihilism - total destructiveness - towards its own characters. Nihilism, like the word "annihilation", derives from nihil, the Latin word for "nothing." This is what DC is reducing its properties to, and I can't think of anything more antithetical to the setting that birthed Superman and the very concept of the superhero.

Ashwin Pande
07-05-2007, 01:48 AM
In a very literal sense, DC is embracing nihilism - total destructiveness - towards its own characters. Nihilism, like the word "annihilation", derives from nihil, the Latin word for "nothing." This is what DC is reducing its properties to, and I can't think of anything more antithetical to the setting that birthed Superman and the very concept of the superhero.

I think you might be reading too much into it. I don't think they think of it in any way close to how you're seeing it. To them I'm pretty sure all these characters are nothing but big $ signs. Kill one off means more $$$. It is however very shortsighted to do this.

The Hodag
07-05-2007, 01:54 AM
I think you might be reading too much into it. I don't think they think of it in any way close to how you're seeing it. To them I'm pretty sure all these characters are nothing but big $ signs. Kill one off means more $$$. It is however very shortsighted to do this.

I'm not really ascribing motives to the situation, though, just assessing the net effect. I don't, for instance, genuinely believe Johns and Meltzer follow a nihilistic philosophy. But between catering to the baser instincts of the readers, their desperation to turn a buck, and exercising whatever creative instincts lead them to think lotsa death would really make DC great, they've produced a setting the damn well feels nihilistic. As nihilistic as Stan Lee's era was humanistic.

Ashwin Pande
07-05-2007, 02:31 AM
I'm not really ascribing motives to the situation, though, just assessing the net effect. I don't, for instance, genuinely believe Johns and Meltzer follow a nihilistic philosophy. But between catering to the baser instincts of the readers, their desperation to turn a buck, and exercising whatever creative instincts lead them to think lotsa death would really make DC great, they've produced a setting the damn well feels nihilistic. As nihilistic as Stan Lee's era was humanistic.

I can agree to an extent with that.

THWIP!
07-05-2007, 02:56 AM
So, he was pre-determined to die? At what point? When he became Flash? Before he became Flash? Seven issues into becoming Flash?

I think he meant from and editorial standpoint. Even if they put Morrison or Winnick on the book Bart was going to die.

dEnny!
07-05-2007, 03:57 AM
Let's not forget the real tragedy of Bart. Chronologically, he was about 5 years old.

His speed made him age too quickly. That's why he was brought to the past in the first place.

DC killed a minor for a cheap thrill.

As for the DC vs. Marvel factor. Marvel is kicking DC's ass all over the place. Look at sales. DC has about 3 books that put out over 100k copies. Marvel has about a dozen, with a lot of books just under. Look at message boards. Hell, I am a 30+yr DC-holic and I have all but abandoned them. And Marvel is looking really interesting right now. Their stories make sense and have a down-to-earth, relatable quality that DC has lost. DC only knows ridiculous cosmic grandeur stuff anymore.

Dr. Ω


Is that an accurate way to determine who is winning between DC vs Marvel?

I think you need to look at the total picture. Doesn't DC have more titles? If they sell fewer issues, but have twice as many comics and create them for less couldn't DC be actually beating Marvel?

Yes, Marvel is dominating the Top 10 and Marvel's top titles are outperforming DC's top titles, but I don't think this determines which company is healthier.

Kevinroc
07-05-2007, 08:31 AM
Is that an accurate way to determine who is winning between DC vs Marvel?

I think you need to look at the total picture. Doesn't DC have more titles? If they sell fewer issues, but have twice as many comics and create them for less couldn't DC be actually beating Marvel?

Yes, Marvel is dominating the Top 10 and Marvel's top titles are outperforming DC's top titles, but I don't think this determines which company is healthier.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=10981

The lists here seem to focus on the sales figures numbers. Granted, I've seen pros state that we (the fans) never see the real numbers, but based on what we do see, it seems as if Marvel is outperforming DC.

(I know this doesn't take into account things like bookstores and what have you.)

Masculine Todd
07-05-2007, 09:09 AM
Not really, looking at the sales.



In no way was Elongated Man off the radar after Identity Crisis.

As I've said, I think DC decided to kill him after they saw the sales for that first arc plummet.

Where are the sales we're comparing? DC still has major hits. Countdown, Justice, Justice League of America, All Star Batman, All Star Superman, Morrison's Batman, Justice Society of America have all been recent Top 20 sellers and they have a healthy amount of 20-80K titles as well.

Show me where DC is being destroyed by Marvel saleswise.

Matt O'Keefe
07-05-2007, 09:15 AM
Where are the sales we're comparing? DC still has major hits. Countdown, Justice, Justice League of America, All Star Batman, All Star Superman, Morrison's Batman, Justice Society of America have all been recent Top 20 sellers and they have a healthy amount of 20-80K titles as well.

Show me where DC is being destroyed by Marvel saleswise.

http://www.newsarama.com/marketreport/may07sales.html


Comics, Magazines, & GNs Dollar Share Comics

MARVEL COMICS - 42.80%
DC COMICS - 27.66%

Masculine Todd
07-05-2007, 09:24 AM
http://www.newsarama.com/marketreport/may07sales.html


Comics, Magazines, & GNs Dollar Share Comics

MARVEL COMICS - 42.80%
DC COMICS - 27.66%

Has this really changed much from 2000? 2002? 2004? 2006? We've always known Marvel has held a lead. It doesn't mean Marvel is better or that DC's line is failing. Doomsday ideologies are absurd in relation to the rivalry between these two publishing titans.

ClintP
07-05-2007, 09:27 AM
Has this really changed much from 2000? 2002? 2004? 2006? We've always known Marvel has held a lead. It doesn't mean Marvel is better or that DC's line is failing. Doomsday ideologies are absurd in relation to the rivalry between these two publishing titans.

Please keep him away from my Spidey!

Matt O'Keefe
07-05-2007, 09:32 AM
Has this really changed much from 2000? 2002? 2004? 2006? We've always known Marvel has held a lead. It doesn't mean Marvel is better or that DC's line is failing. Doomsday ideologies are absurd in relation to the rivalry between these two publishing titans.

I'm not saying that DC is near doomsday, I'm simply saying that Marvel continues to have a HUGE edge on DC in sales. A lot of the momentum from Infinite Crisis is gone, and the constant events will only push more away.

Masculine Todd
07-05-2007, 09:43 AM
I'm not saying that DC is near doomsday, I'm simply saying that Marvel continues to have a HUGE edge on DC in sales. A lot of the momentum from Infinite Crisis is gone, and the constant events will only push more away.

And I wouldn't say huge, considering that, to the best of my recollection, they have never been much more closer to eliminating the gap than now. Sales haven't taken a massive plummeting. Had so many people (IE - internet users, which is hardly a reflection on the majority of readers) not been thrilled with DC two or three years ago, they'd all be crying it's impending doom, or to a less irrational extent, that Marvel was dominating them sales-wise, simply because they want to integrate hyperbole in their argument to "prove" that the DC they don't care for doesn't work. It's silly, in my opinion. I doubt sales have changed drastically for DC over the past four or five years. However, now that a large internet fanbase is alienated from the current product, they choose now to demonstrate the lead that Marvel has, as if it's much more considerable than prior years.

Again, I could be wrong, but this is how I interpret the whole situation and economic climate of the argument.

Ryan F
07-05-2007, 09:54 AM
Has this really changed much from 2000? 2002? 2004? 2006? We've always known Marvel has held a lead. It doesn't mean Marvel is better or that DC's line is failing. Doomsday ideologies are absurd in relation to the rivalry between these two publishing titans.

Near the beginning of Infinite Crisis, DC actually beat Marvel for a couple of months - and last month was near the record high. So, yes, Marvel has inceased its lead.

That said, no, it's not doomsday, and no, it doesn't even reflect upon the relative quality of the two companies. I happen to think that Marvel is doing a much better job in marketing their titles as events.

DC vs. Marvel arguments are stupid. Most everyone has their preference - it's all entertainment.

Deej
07-05-2007, 10:05 AM
You're nitpicking and over analyzing. He took a scenario people hated, and made them fall in love with it by the time he was done. He had no control over the beginning or end, just how he got there.

No - Ray's 100% right.

Ashwin Pande
07-05-2007, 10:09 AM
http://www.newsarama.com/marketreport/may07sales.html


Comics, Magazines, & GNs Dollar Share Comics

MARVEL COMICS - 42.80%
DC COMICS - 27.66%

so 28% is independent companies? I didn't think they would have that much of a share...

chazbot
07-05-2007, 10:11 AM
so 28% is independent companies? I didn't think they would have that much of a share...

Image and Darkhorse acount for like 14% I think. Don't remember the full stats.

NickT
07-05-2007, 10:16 AM
Has this really changed much from 2000? 2002? 2004? 2006? We've always known Marvel has held a lead. It doesn't mean Marvel is better or that DC's line is failing. Doomsday ideologies are absurd in relation to the rivalry between these two publishing titans.
http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/06/29/comics-sales-an-examination/ - Sales analysis of DC sicne 2001, in graph format :)





I have to agree with Ray, this isn't a Jar Jar situation. If th new Blue Beetle was unpopular it would be (New character), but this isn't.


From looking over various threads, I think that most people's problems came from three points:

1 - No Wally resolution.
2 - Bart being aged.
3 - Them not liking the relaunch.

Not neccisarily an anti-Bart sentiment.

Ashwin Pande
07-05-2007, 10:17 AM
Image and Darkhorse acount for like 14% I think. Don't remember the full stats.

That's pretty cool. I like that amidst all these events and gimmicky superhero stories they still get a good amount of readers. It SHOULD be better but relatively I think it's pretty good.

Foolish Mortal
07-05-2007, 10:20 AM
Oh, fucking A.

That would only be a legit comparison if Jar Jar was a universally beloved character before they loused him up beyond recognition. :frustrat:
Bart was a 'universally beloved character'?

Masculine Todd
07-05-2007, 10:21 AM
http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/06/29/comics-sales-an-examination/ - Sales analysis of DC sicne 2001, in graph format :).

Wow! DC has exponentially increased since '01 with a large increase spike here and a large decrease spike there. They're much higher than they were five years ago. The gap between Marvel and DC is wider than it's ever been though, so I must conceed and agree that that Marvel is doing better by a considerable margin.

Dr. Omega
07-05-2007, 10:23 AM
I'm saying for the first time in decades, to me, Marvel has some interesting concepts. They are wreaking havoc with their universe, but for the better, I think. It looks like some long term planning stuff. They are setting the status quo for years to come.

DC looks like it is running around like a chicken with it's head cut off. Bring back the Multiverse! But then collapse it down to one Earth again, but with slight changes that no one cares about. Oh, wait! PSYCHE!! There really is a new Multiverse. Been there for a year! ..but only 52 Universes.

I don't see how any of this is setting a stage to tell a drama. I have seen writers posting that they do not know what the current approved continuity is for several characters. That is a mess. I seriously wonder if Didio's grand plan has been to start over all along, so he is letting everyone just do what they want for a few years to make it unpredictable.

Whatever the case, after over THIRTY years as a rabid DC fan, they have alienated me. That was EXTREMELY tough to do. I have always been "meh" about Marvel, but the Civil War, the Initiative and World War Hulk seem to be very interesting directions.

Dr. Ω

Mylazycat
07-05-2007, 10:26 AM
That's pretty cool. I like that amidst all these events and gimmicky superhero stories they still get a good amount of readers. It SHOULD be better but relatively I think it's pretty good.

I want to buy more non Marvel and DC. I ever made a thread about it asking what I should try out.

Ashwin Pande
07-05-2007, 10:27 AM
I'm hating DC now.. but honestly.. sometimes I worry.. if they really do have a plan.. and they pull it off and somehow the DCU ends up kicking a LOT of ass.. I'm going to be even more pissed!!

Yes. I'm a fanboy. Don't judge me! There's a little bit of me in every single one of you too!!

I'm like Soylent Green baby.

NickT
07-05-2007, 10:34 AM
Wow! DC has exponentially increased since '01 with a large increase spike here and a large decrease spike there. They're much higher than they were five years ago. The gap between Marvel and DC is wider than it's ever been though, so I must conceed and agree that that Marvel is doing better by a considerable margin.
I like the sales drop at roughly the point Didio joined DC. Nothing to do with him I'm sure, but it looks funny :)

ZombieSpeedball
07-05-2007, 11:24 AM
I'm hating DC now.. but honestly.. sometimes I worry.. if they really do have a plan.. and they pull it off and somehow the DCU ends up kicking a LOT of ass.. I'm going to be even more pissed!!

Yes. I'm a fanboy. Don't judge me! There's a little bit of me in every single one of you too!!

I'm like Soylent Green baby.

If this is somehow true, I will laugh my ass off.

This might even lead to an Ultimate DC Universe. :D

Deej
07-05-2007, 11:27 AM
Bart was a 'universally beloved character'?

I won't use Ray's words...but I think everyone liked him as Impulse and Kid Flash. Definitely a fun character. I don't ever remember seeing that people hated the character before he was shoe horned into The Flash role.

Dr. Omega
07-05-2007, 12:10 PM
That is the part that kills me. I would LOVE for DC to succeed and be cool. They have the best characters in comics. I just think they handle them for crap.

Let's see a DC Hero win the Presidency. Let's see laws get enacted regarding Metahumans. Heck, DC kept bringing this up a long time ago. Many years before Civil War, but kept it as random background dialogue. Let's see Wonder Woman brought up on trial for Max Lord by the UN. They should have kept Brother Eye and Omacs as an ongoing plotline throughout the DCU. It creates drama, adds a shift in power.. much like the JLU storyline where the Gov't didn't trust the JLA.

That is DC in a nutshell. Wasted Potential.


Dr. Ω

YouStayClassy
07-05-2007, 12:38 PM
I won't use Ray's words...but I think everyone liked him as Impulse and Kid Flash. Definitely a fun character. I don't ever remember seeing that people hated the character before he was shoe horned into The Flash role.

I'd like to think a large portion of people that read Impulse loved him. They just don't make books that fun/good anymore.

Ray G.
07-05-2007, 12:43 PM
I won't use Ray's words...but I think everyone liked him as Impulse and Kid Flash. Definitely a fun character. I don't ever remember seeing that people hated the character before he was shoe horned into The Flash role.

I can't honestly ever recall hearing a negative opinion on the character during his time as Impulse, and while his popularity waned a bit once his personality was toned down as Kid Flash, he was probably one of the two most popular members of the Teen Titans, along with Superboy.

Masculine Todd
07-05-2007, 12:46 PM
That is the part that kills me. I would LOVE for DC to succeed and be cool. They have the best characters in comics. I just think they handle them for crap.

Let's see a DC Hero win the Presidency. Let's see laws get enacted regarding Metahumans. Heck, DC kept bringing this up a long time ago. Many years before Civil War, but kept it as random background dialogue. Let's see Wonder Woman brought up on trial for Max Lord by the UN. They should have kept Brother Eye and Omacs as an ongoing plotline throughout the DCU. It creates drama, adds a shift in power.. much like the JLU storyline where the Gov't didn't trust the JLA.

That is DC in a nutshell. Wasted Potential.


Dr. Ω


For the sake of debate, who is to say that any of those proposed ideas would work? At the risk of conveying an aura of hostility, I wouldn't enjoy any of those concepts coming to pass.

It is rather easy for us to criticize this company, but it is quite hard to make a claim that they're failing or not succeeding. They're overall sales percentage has increased tremendously since 2001. They have a larger gap between their sales and Marvels, implying they haven't grown at the rate or to the extent of their competition, but how can overall sales growth be considered a failure? A lack of success?

Furthermore, if the gage of success is the quality of the titles, again, I ask how can any of us fairly judge this? Our enjoyment of these books is subjective. It's unreliable to say "DC is wasted potential" when this hypothesis was formulated on the persons' feelings toward what has been done with these characters. Many people enjoy contemporary DC, if sales are any indication. I've talked to other fans, read them on message boards. Many people still love what DC is doing.

I know I've come across as incredibly partial to DC in this thread, and it is merely my attempt to play Devil's Advocate. I'm a Marvel Zombie, and have always preferred them to DC. Moreover, I find current Marvel to be the best it's been since I've read comics. Unfortunately, I find DC's main publishing line lacking...IN MY OPINION. I do not use my bias to reflect on their success.

I don't think DC is failing at all. If we look at this objectively, I think many would see that.

ClintP
07-05-2007, 12:51 PM
If Bart is Jar Jar, shouldn't Jar Jar have been made cool and then killed? Didn't he make it through the prequel trilogy? In what sick universe does he not get the axe?

Mister Mets
07-05-2007, 01:13 PM
Just saw Star Wars Episode 1.

Even in the Guggenheim-less issues of The Flash, Bart was not Jar Jar.

Dr. Omega
07-05-2007, 01:28 PM
I don't think DC is failing at all. If we look at this objectively, I think many would see that.
Not only are sales no better than they were a few years ago, but the DC Sales stats show stats are dropping steadily month to month. Some are minor slumps, some more major.

Most of Marvels are going up or stabilizing to a steady number month after month.

That is failing. That is not subjective opinion. That is sales stats, as of May 2007.


Dr. Ω

ZombieSpeedball
07-05-2007, 01:37 PM
Not only are sales no better than they were a few years ago, but the DC Sales stats show stats are dropping steadily month to month. Some are minor slumps, some more major.

Most of Marvels are going up or stabilizing to a steady number month after month.

That is failing. That is not subjective opinion. That is sales stats, as of May 2007.


Dr. Ω

Is that why Marvel seems to be going the "miniseries" route less and the "ongoing series" route more?

Masculine Todd
07-05-2007, 01:39 PM
Not only are sales no better than they were a few years ago, but the DC Sales stats show stats are dropping steadily month to month. Some are minor slumps, some more major.

Most of Marvels are going up or stabilizing to a steady number month after month.

That is failing. That is not subjective opinion. That is sales stats, as of May 2007.


Dr. Ω


The chart from a few posts ago showed a steady growth since '01. It's above where it was then.

Masculine Todd
07-05-2007, 01:46 PM
It would appear that they've grown since '01, with a few dips here and a few dips there. Where the overall sale percentages lie, it's considerablly higher than the four to five years ago.

http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/06/29/comics-sales-an-examination/

John M. Coker (Johnny C.)
07-05-2007, 09:01 PM
Oh, fucking A.

That would only be a legit comparison if Jar Jar was a universally beloved character before they loused him up beyond recognition. :frustrat:

That wouldn't be a legit comparison. As Bart has never been a universally beloved character himself. Generally liked- maybe. But universally beloved- not even close.

Matt O'Keefe
07-05-2007, 09:46 PM
It would appear that they've grown since '01, with a few dips here and a few dips there. Where the overall sale percentages lie, it's considerablly higher than the four to five years ago.

http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/06/29/comics-sales-an-examination/

But that's true for the entire industry.

Masculine Todd
07-06-2007, 09:21 AM
But that's true for the entire industry.


Wow! DC has exponentially increased since '01 with a large increase spike here and a large decrease spike there. They're much higher than they were five years ago. The gap between Marvel and DC is wider than it's ever been though, so I must conceed and agree that that Marvel is doing better by a considerable margin.

:wink: