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Dusto
07-03-2007, 04:48 PM
So, I had some hours to kill in a book store the other day, and I read the beginning of the first Strangers in Paradise digest. It seemed to me like a less impressive version of Jaime Hernandez's Maggie stories. Does it evolve into something more than this? Am I wrong in my dismissive appraisal? Is this series worth pursuing?

NATE!
07-03-2007, 05:10 PM
So, I had some hours to kill in a book store the other day, and I read the beginning of the first Strangers in Paradise digest. It seemed to me like a less impressive version of Jaime Hernandez's Maggie stories. Does it evolve into something more than this? Am I wrong in my dismissive appraisal? Is this series worth pursuing?

You are not wrong. It is weepy, Mary Sue laden crap with very few neat moments. That's my opinion, though. And it has nothing on any of the Locas stories.

Jacob Lyon Goddard
07-03-2007, 05:35 PM
So, I had some hours to kill in a book store the other day, and I read the beginning of the first Strangers in Paradise digest. It seemed to me like a less impressive version of Jaime Hernandez's Maggie stories. Does it evolve into something more than this? Am I wrong in my dismissive appraisal? Is this series worth pursuing?

every time i point this out, people act like i strangled their first born

Corey
07-03-2007, 05:36 PM
So, I had some hours to kill in a book store the other day, and I read the beginning of the first Strangers in Paradise digest. It seemed to me like a less impressive version of Jaime Hernandez's Maggie stories. Does it evolve into something more than this? Am I wrong in my dismissive appraisal? Is this series worth pursuing?

I've heard someone else say this as well. Unfortunately, I'm lame and haven't read enough of Jaime Hernandez's Maggie stories to comment.

But I will say that for me, I Dream of You, the second SiP trade paperback, was the peak of the series. There's plenty of other great stuff, along with some treading water and meandering. But even with that, it really is a great series in its own right.

TRILL, THE CARBON BASED LIFEFORM
07-03-2007, 05:36 PM
It was entertaining, but then after a while I started to think of it as the thing that wouldn't die.

Jacob Lyon Goddard
07-03-2007, 05:42 PM
I've heard someone else say this as well. Unfortunately, I'm lame and haven't read enough of Jaime Hernandez's Maggie stories to comment.

in terms of the basic structure of the set-up via the plot, they are exactly the same

a hot type A lesbian with a dark past and her full figured hopelessly niave bisexual roomate/ occational lover, and their assorted adventures together and apart

just trade the assissin whore with punk rocker

Corey
07-03-2007, 05:44 PM
in terms of the basic structure of the set-up via the plot, they are exactly the same

a hot type A lesbian with a dark past and her full figured hopelessly niave bisexual roomate/ occational lover, and their assorted adventures together and apart

just trade the assissin whore with punk rocker

Huh. Does the full-figured hopelessly niave bisexual roommate know that she's bisexual? Or does she think she's straight for much of the series?

NATE!
07-03-2007, 05:44 PM
in terms of the basic structure of the set-up via the plot, they are exactly the same

a hot type A lesbian with a dark past and her full figured hopelessly niave bisexual roomate/ occational lover, and their assorted adventures together and apart

just trade the assissin whore with punk rocker

Hopey would so kick her ass, too.

Queen of the Ban Age
07-03-2007, 05:45 PM
It's my favorite comic series of all time.

And yes, it gets MUCH more interesting.

Jacob Lyon Goddard
07-03-2007, 05:45 PM
Hopey would so kick her ass, too.

def

Jacob Lyon Goddard
07-03-2007, 05:46 PM
It's my favorite comic series of all time.

And yes, it gets MUCH more interesting.

yet never gets nearly as well written or illustrated as Love & Rockets

John M. Coker (Johnny C.)
07-03-2007, 05:49 PM
One of my favorite series of all time. It's all about character. Even in these unreal situations, the characters couldn't feel more real. It's like I know them, personally.

Corey
07-03-2007, 05:51 PM
yet never gets nearly as well written or illustrated as Love & Rockets

From what I understand, not much is.

Queen of the Ban Age
07-03-2007, 05:53 PM
yet never gets nearly as well written or illustrated as Love & Rockets

Of course that would depend on little things like "personal taste" and "opinion."

I've read some Love and Rockets and found it highly meh. The dialog wasn't nearly as entertaining as something I'd read in SiP.

Jacob Lyon Goddard
07-03-2007, 05:53 PM
From what I understand, not much is.

true
but few things also try to rip L&R off as badly as Strangers

kylethoreau
07-03-2007, 05:55 PM
got into when the first digests came out (one of those 'mean to read it but can't manage' )

and was hooked, loved how they ended it, especially the superman nod.

Queen of the Ban Age
07-03-2007, 05:55 PM
true
but few things also try to rip L&R off as badly as Strangers

So a lesbian character and an overweight character make it a L&R ripoff? Because those are the only two things that I really see in common.

Jacob Lyon Goddard
07-03-2007, 05:58 PM
Of course that would depend on little things like "personal taste" and "opinion."

I've read some Love and Rockets and found it highly meh. The dialog wasn't nearly as entertaining as something I'd read in SiP.

there's no doubt that SiP is a beacon of independant publishing, and proof that a sole creater on his own terms can make a successful living making his comic, and i have nothing but respect for Moore for that

but Strangers in Paradise will always be a piss poor carbon copy of Jaime Hernandez's Love and Rockeks
now and for forever

Queen of the Ban Age
07-03-2007, 06:01 PM
there's no doubt that SiP is a beacon of independant publishing, and proof that a sole creater on his own terms can make a successful living making his comic, and i have nothing but respect for Moore for that

but Strangers in Paradise will always be a piss poor carbon copy of Jaime Hernandez's Love and Rockeks
now and for forever

Which, again, is completely personal opinion. Having read every issue of SiP save the last -- I haven't gotten to the shop yet -- and a couple of issues of L&R, I cannot find a single thing in common besides the aforementioned lesbian character and an overweight character. MANY stories have these elements. The character personalities are NOTHING alike, from what I've read. And frankly, Katchoo's and Francie's personalities are what makes SiP the amazing book it is.

Jacob Lyon Goddard
07-03-2007, 06:03 PM
So a lesbian character and an overweight character make it a L&R ripoff? Because those are the only two things that I really see in common.

well that's because you haven't read significant portions of boths comics

Jacob Lyon Goddard
07-03-2007, 06:03 PM
Which, again, is completely personal opinion. Having read every issue of SiP save the last -- I haven't gotten to the shop yet -- and a couple of issues of L&R, I cannot find a single thing in common besides the aforementioned lesbian character and an overweight character. MANY stories have these elements. The character personalities are NOTHING alike, from what I've read. And frankly, Katchoo's and Francie's personalities are what makes SiP the amazing book it is.

see above
because they are

Queen of the Ban Age
07-03-2007, 06:07 PM
well that's because you haven't read significant portions of boths comics

I've read a trade plus an issue of one and all but one issue of the other.

The relationships between the two main female characters in each book really don't have anything in common.

That's like saying the relationship between Wolverine and Jean Grey and Batman and Catwoman are ripping each other off because there's a lot of unrequited tension there.

Jacob Lyon Goddard
07-03-2007, 06:12 PM
I've read a trade plus an issue of one and all but one issue of the other.

The relationships between the two main female characters in each book really don't have anything in common.

That's like saying the relationship between Wolverine and Jean Grey and Batman and Catwoman are ripping each other off because there's a lot of unrequited tension there.

i don't understand the Batman/Wolverine analogy you just made, but having read the first four "pocket" volumes of SiP and the first 20 years worth of L&R, i can say that SiP's two main characters and their interactions with each other are almost the same as Maggie and Hopey's from Love & Rockets

only ten years behind

Queen of the Ban Age
07-03-2007, 06:22 PM
i don't understand the Batman/Wolverine analogy you just made, but having read the first four "pocket" volumes of SiP and the first 20 years worth of L&R, i can say that SiP's two main characters and their interactions with each other are almost the same as Maggie and Hopey's from Love & Rockets

only ten years behind

Problem is, however, is that Francie and Katchoo are friends, first and foremost. Is Katchoo in love with Francie? Certainly. However, Francie does not reciprocate. And that's the huge strain on their relationship. They do not occasionally sleep together like Hopey and Maggie.

While both stories delve into a deep relationship between two women, they have completely different dynamics.

Jacob Lyon Goddard
07-03-2007, 06:26 PM
Problem is, however, is that Francie and Katchoo are friends, first and foremost. Is Katchoo in love with Francie? Certainly. However, Francie does not reciprocate. And that's the huge strain on their relationship.
While both stories delve into a deep relationship between two women, they have completely different dynamics.

seriously, you just described Jaime Hernandez's Love & Rockets

Hopey and Maggie aren't shown having a sexual relationship until the Color Special, 20 years into the comic's history

Jamie Howdeshell
07-03-2007, 06:27 PM
Problem is, however, is that Francie and Katchoo are friends, first and foremost. Is Katchoo in love with Francie? Certainly. However, Francie does not reciprocate. And that's the huge strain on their relationship. They do not occasionally sleep together like Hopey and Maggie.

While both stories delve into a deep relationship between two women, they have completely different dynamics.

I agree with your analysis.

I also think L&R isn't as good as some people try to make it out to be though I appreciate its significance.

Jacob Lyon Goddard
07-03-2007, 06:29 PM
Alysha, you will not be able to make a competent argument about this until you've read at least 2/3rds of the Jaime L&Rs

But by then you'll realize your argument will be unfounded

Queen of the Ban Age
07-03-2007, 06:35 PM
Alysha, you will not be able to make a competent argument about this until you've read at least 2/3rds of the Jaime L&Rs

But by then you'll realize your argument will be unfounded

Honestly, if I can't make a "competent argument" about their relationship having read what I have, then I certainly don't want to continue reading the book. Because that would mean that what I read wasn't indicative of the normal relationship that they have in the book.

Jacob Lyon Goddard
07-03-2007, 06:38 PM
Honestly, if I can't make a "competent argument" about their relationship having read what I have, then I certainly don't want to continue reading the book. Because that would mean that what I read wasn't indicative of the normal relationship that they have in the book.

then we agree, you can't make a competent argument

Howlett
07-03-2007, 06:46 PM
then we agree, you can't make a competent argument

Because if you say it it must be true.

Wait, no. That wouldn't be right. That would be an uber-snob's way of adressing someone with a differing opinion than them.

You would really want to work more on your people skills man, because you are sorely lacking in any. Just because she disagrees with you doesn't mean she can't make a competant argument. Newsflash mate, just because it's a comic you love DOESN'T make it the greatest thing ever and anything similar "a rip off". And the same holds true for Alysha. And me. And anyone else. Grow the hell up.

Jacob Lyon Goddard
07-03-2007, 07:17 PM
Because if you say it it must be true.

Wait, no. That wouldn't be right. That would be an uber-snob's way of adressing someone with a differing opinion than them.

You would really want to work more on your people skills man, because you are sorely lacking in any. Just because she disagrees with you doesn't mean she can't make a competant argument. Newsflash mate, just because it's a comic you love DOESN'T make it the greatest thing ever and anything similar "a rip off". And the same holds true for Alysha. And me. And anyone else. Grow the hell up.

what's your opinion on the similarities between Jaime Hernandez's parts of Love & Rockets and Terry Moore's Strangers in Paradise?

Dusto
07-03-2007, 07:17 PM
It does seem to me that Alysha may not have read enough of Jaime's L&R stories to make an informed judgment on this issue. I saw very little value in his early L&R stories, but after the first few years it became pretty great, and it's the later great stuff (which Alysha claims not to have read) that I felt SiP to be imitating.

Jacob Lyon Goddard
07-03-2007, 07:18 PM
It does seem to me that Alysha may not have read enough of Jaime's L&R stories to make an informed judgment on this issue. I saw very little value in his early L&R stories, but after the first few years it became pretty great, and it's the later great stuff (which Alysha claims not to have read) that I felt SiP to be imitating.

that's a much nicer way of saying what i was saying

everyone, listen to Dusto

Queen of the Ban Age
07-03-2007, 07:25 PM
It does seem to me that Alysha may not have read enough of Jaime's L&R stories to make an informed judgment on this issue. I saw very little value in his early L&R stories, but after the first few years it became pretty great, and it's the later great stuff (which Alysha claims not to have read) that I felt SiP to be imitating.

The stuff I did read was later. I didn't say where I started reading.

Howlett
07-03-2007, 07:30 PM
what's your opinion on the similarities between Jaime Hernandez's parts of Love & Rockets and Terry Moore's Strangers in Paradise?

Wow. Way to "reply to my post" yet ask something that was completely irrelevant to what I said.

Seeing as how my post was not actually directed at your opinion (because I respect other people's opinions, whether or not they correspond with my own), but at your lack of being able to make a point with being insulting, I'm going to do what you just did and completely ignore your post.

I'll just stand by what I said instead. Feel free to grow up, look at what I said and think for a second that maybe, just MAYBE your opinions aren't the gospel you seem to think they are and accept that you're a rude, condescending person with pretty much fuck all in the way of people skills 99.99% of the time here. Or, and I'm guessing this is going to be the most likely so I won't be shocked if you do this, just completely disregard everything I've just posted and continue believeing that there are two opinions as far as you're concerned. Your one and the wrong one. I'll just go back to nodding and smiling with my eyes glazed over while you do.

Jacob Lyon Goddard
07-03-2007, 07:34 PM
Wow. Way to "reply to my post" yet ask something that was completely irrelevant to what I said.

Seeing as how my post was not actually directed at your opinion (because I respect other people's opinions, whether or not they correspond with my own), but at your lack of being able to make a point with being insulting, I'm going to do what you just did and completely ignore your post.

I'll just stand by what I said instead. Feel free to grow up, look at what I said and think for a second that maybe, just MAYBE your opinions aren't the gospel you seem to think they are and accept that you're a rude, condescending person with pretty much fuck all in the way of people skills 99.99% of the time here. Or, and I'm guessing this is going to be the most likely so I won't be shocked if you do this, just completely disregard everything I've just posted and continue believeing that there are two opinions as far as you're concerned. Your one and the wrong one. I'll just go back to nodding and smiling with my eyes glazed over while you do.

Alysha is more than welcome to engage me in a well rounded conversation about L&R/SiP once she's read sizable portions of both

i look forward to it
i enjoy educated debates

John M. Coker (Johnny C.)
07-03-2007, 07:55 PM
Well, I've heard legend of Goddard's prickishness, but have yet to witness it... until now. Jacob, can you seriously reread your comments to Alysha and then honestly tell yourself that you weren't being mean for no particular reason? Because man, I like you and most of your posts, but yeah, gotta say, if I said that you were being dismissive towards her, that would be an understatement. And I know you're a more thoughtful guy that that. Just sayin.

As for the topic at hand, and I have read good chunks of both- while the books do have similar characters with a slightly similar relationship, I would not say that the BOOKS, that the STORYTELLING is similar at all. The tone and feel of these two books are vastly different. The tools might be alike, but the execution is where they differ.

King Of Fakeposts
07-03-2007, 07:58 PM
Alysha and Jacob going at each others throats in this thread, let us watch and lol together.

John M. Coker (Johnny C.)
07-03-2007, 08:06 PM
Alysha and Jacob going at each others throats in this thread, let us watch and lol together.

It's only funny if there're Nerf bats involved.

Alasar
07-03-2007, 08:15 PM
My second favorite comic book series. I just recently ordered the last pocketbook.
It seems that all of my books are ending nowadays. Next up: Y- The Last Man.

/(. . )/
07-04-2007, 12:44 AM
this is my favorite series, too. i think it sounds silly to explain the plot, but this book isn't read for the plot. it's about character and no other fictional work has made me feel so close to characters.

Dusto
07-04-2007, 06:38 AM
As for the topic at hand, and I have read good chunks of both- while the books do have similar characters with a slightly similar relationship, I would not say that the BOOKS, that the STORYTELLING is similar at all. The tone and feel of these two books are vastly different. The tools might be alike, but the execution is where they differ.

Thanks, perhaps I'll give SiP more of a chance.

badpoet
07-04-2007, 07:44 AM
Were I Alysha, I would quit responding because it's hopeless to argue against zealotry. Seriously, could you try to be slightly less condescending? Just for a change of pace, perhaps.

Thudpucker
07-04-2007, 08:00 AM
The simularities are very general and can only be seen in the initial stages of SiP.

Why people like Goddard get hung up on things like this I have no clue. He sounds like one of those Lord of the Ring uber-geeks, ranting that any story with a Wizard rips off Tolkien.

Jacob Lyon Goddard
07-04-2007, 08:23 AM
flexing some brain muscles i hadn't used in a while

Jacob Lyon Goddard
07-04-2007, 08:26 AM
Thanks, perhaps I'll give SiP more of a chance.

there are certainly worse comics you could spend your money. not a bad comic once you get past the obvious similarities with the better book.
my bigger hang-up with the series was whenever the killer ho plotline popped back up, always pulled me right out of whatever believable or realistic qualities the comic had

(akaRyanHoffman)
07-04-2007, 08:44 AM
SiP is a fantastic high-drama comic with great characters. Wasn't really satified with the ending though.

Thudpucker
07-04-2007, 09:34 AM
SiP is a fantastic high-drama comic with great characters. Wasn't really satified with the ending though.

It went way too long. If the series had stopped half way thru (at the point that Pocket Book #3 ends) it would be a stronger work.

(akaRyanHoffman)
07-04-2007, 09:50 AM
It went way too long. If the series had stopped half way thru (at the point that Pocket Book #3 ends) it would be a stronger work.

I didn't buy Francine as bisexual for a second. That seem disshonest to me. Which is what bothered me, considerding, for the most part, SiP was pretty honest with it's characters.

johnny whiplash
07-04-2007, 10:04 AM
I didn't buy Francine as bisexual for a second. That seem disshonest to me. Which is what bothered me, considerding, for the most part, SiP was pretty honest with it's characters.

I don't think Francine bought herself as bisexual, which is why she had to live the life she thought she was supposed to lead. Only after she attempted the husband-and-picket-fence existence could she allow herself to pursue what she really wanted over what she felt she should want. That was my read on it, anyway.

Masculine Todd
07-04-2007, 10:08 AM
I've always wanted to read SiP and I think I may.

However, I'd only heard of Love & Rockets in passing. Goddard, what's the gist of the series? Is it collected? All the same story? Info? I would be truly grateful to gain some more incite on it.

Dusto
07-04-2007, 10:45 AM
I've always wanted to read SiP and I think I may.

However, I'd only heard of Love & Rockets in passing. Goddard, what's the gist of the series? Is it collected? All the same story? Info? I would be truly grateful to gain some more incite on it.

Love & Rockets is an anthology title containing the work of the Brothers Hernandez: Gilbert and Jaime, mostly, with a few contributions from Mario. Gilbert's stories usually focus either around the Latin American town of Palomar, or on characters from this town in other parts of the world. Jaime's stories start off as humorous sci-fi with a bit of romance thrown in, but as it goes on it gets more down to earth (though the characters stay the same) and basically becomes about life in southern California with two punk chicks named Maggie and Hopey and their cast of friends. Hopey is a lesbian and in love with Maggie. Maggie has crushes on various guys, though she's really in love with Hopey. In terms of art, I'd say Jaime's linework is stronger, but Gilbert's layouts are more interesting. Storywise, Gilbert starts out much stronger, but Jaime eventually catches up. Jaime focuses more on personal drama whereas Gilbert tends to tell more complex stories. Alan Moore has said something to the effect that Jaime Hernandez is the best comics creator alive right now (though I prefer Gilbert to Jaime, myself). They are collected in various forms, but the best way to get them is probably in a series of tpbs that's coming out now, divided by brother. The two Jaime volumes available are "Maggie the Mechanic" and "The Girl From HOPPERS." The two Gilbert volumes are "Heartbreak Soup" and "Human Diastrophism." A third volume of each will come out in December. It looks like these volumes will be more complete than the hardbacks that came out a couple years ago, and they're also really cheap for how much story you get.

Corey
07-04-2007, 11:09 AM
I don't think Francine bought herself as bisexual, which is why she had to live the life she thought she was supposed to lead. Only after she attempted the husband-and-picket-fence existence could she allow herself to pursue what she really wanted over what she felt she should want. That was my read on it, anyway.

That's how I read it, too.

As for the ending...

At first I thought it was a bit too happy and perfect and neatly wrapped up, but I guess after everything that these characters have been through, they deserved it.

johnny whiplash
07-05-2007, 05:45 AM
That's how I read it, too.

As for the ending...

At first I thought it was a bit too happy and perfect and neatly wrapped up, but I guess after everything that these characters have been through, they deserved it.

I thought the same thing. A friend of mine said it felt less like that when he read it the last arc in one sitting.

charlie
07-05-2007, 07:37 AM
Love & Rockets is an anthology title containing the work of the Brothers Hernandez: Gilbert and Jaime, mostly, with a few contributions from Mario. Gilbert's stories usually focus either around the Latin American town of Palomar, or on characters from this town in other parts of the world. Jaime's stories start off as humorous sci-fi with a bit of romance thrown in, but as it goes on it gets more down to earth (though the characters stay the same) and basically becomes about life in southern California with two punk chicks named Maggie and Hopey and their cast of friends. Hopey is a lesbian and in love with Maggie. Maggie has crushes on various guys, though she's really in love with Hopey. In terms of art, I'd say Jaime's linework is stronger, but Gilbert's layouts are more interesting. Storywise, Gilbert starts out much stronger, but Jaime eventually catches up. Jaime focuses more on personal drama whereas Gilbert tends to tell more complex stories. Alan Moore has said something to the effect that Jaime Hernandez is the best comics creator alive right now (though I prefer Gilbert to Jaime, myself). They are collected in various forms, but the best way to get them is probably in a series of tpbs that's coming out now, divided by brother. The two Jaime volumes available are "Maggie the Mechanic" and "The Girl From HOPPERS." The two Gilbert volumes are "Heartbreak Soup" and "Human Diastrophism." A third volume of each will come out in December. It looks like these volumes will be more complete than the hardbacks that came out a couple years ago, and they're also really cheap for how much story you get.

Thanks Dustin for the great synopsis. I picked up both the first pocket book and SiP and the new volumes of L&R at the recommendation of my LCS owner, but have not yet had a chance to read either. Sounds like I need to read SiP first and follow it up with L&R. And sounds like I need to put down the video games and get caught up on my reading!!