All Star Batman and Robin: Why did DC lie about what it was going to be....?

[Shwicaz]

When the All Star line was announced, DC (and Dan Didio, specifically), told us that the All Star line was to give us 'iconic' versions of these characters.

The article:

http://www.newsarama.com/DC/AS/AS_Batman.htm


What was announced:


The series will mark Miller’s first return to Batman since The Dark Knight Strikes Again in 2001, and his first take on a more mainstream Batman since 1987’s “Batman: Year One,” which originally ran in DC's regular Batman series. The creator pairing also marks the first time Lee will work with Miller.

Dan Didio:


And finally, DC's Dan Didio: "Frank was instrumental in redefining Bruce Wayne as Batman for a new generation, and I for one, can't wait to see him bring that same level of clarity and interpretation to Dick Grayson and Robin. With the teams now set for the two All Star books, Batman and Superman, I think every will agree that they meet the expectations set for these series. All Star creators working on iconic versions of our All Star characters - it doesn' t get much better than this!"

From the article:


As Newsarama previously reported, the idea behind the All-Star line isn’t to spin the characters into a new timeline, a new universe, or a new continuity,[ rather, the creators are telling stories set in a contemporary period that both builds on the histories of the respective characters, while remaining fresh and as timeless as possible. These are books that DC hopes, will pull people in who maybe haven’t read a Batman or Superman story in a while – if ever. These versions and stories, while not “dumbed down” at all, will bring to the page what’s pure about the character – the iconic characteristics.


Now, you have people saying that people who don't dig the book aren't getting the 'obvious satire', and 'parody'.

And yet, I think the problem that many have with the book isn't that it is written as an over the top story.....but, rather, that DC sold/billed/announced it as a great book for people who normally don't read DC/Batman and Robin to get into for the first time. They wanted an 'iconic' story, that shows (with clarity), and iconic interpretation of the character that wouldn't feel 'old' or 'new', but could be a timeless, iconic portrayal of the character, Robin. Weren't we also supposed to get that type of portrayal of Batman?

So....what happened....?

[JoeE]

EXACTLY. Listen, I'll probably buy Batman: Holy Terror, and absolutely love it, because it sounds like a lot of fun and is actually going to be presented as what it is. But with All-Star Batman, DC basically pulled the wool over the faces of the fans.

[Matt O'Keefe]

Do we really need another ASB&R thread? There are like three others on the first page:?

[Matt Jay]

Apparently, Frank Miller invented "gritty" writing and now he thinks that fans of that style should be mocked. Personally, I think the whole thing is sour grapes from a guy who had it, then lost it.

And DC just wanted it to appeal to all kinds of people. I see no problem with the marketing.

[Marcdachamp]

Dropped after two issues. Flipped through this one for a laugh. Lee's Plastic Man is great, and I love seeing him, but seriously, fuck this title. I can't believe anyone can really waste their money on it.

[Wubbs]

IMO, it is a great book for people who don't read the other Bat books. It's also great for those that do.
I love it.

[Yannick_B]

When the All Star line was announced, DC (and Dan Didio, specifically), told us that the All Star line was to give us 'iconic' versions of these characters.

The article:

http://www.newsarama.com/DC/AS/AS_Batman.htm


What was announced:



Dan Didio:



From the article:




Now, you have people saying that people who don't dig the book aren't getting the 'obvious satire', and 'parody'.

And yet, I think the problem that many have with the book isn't that it is written as an over the top story.....but, rather, that DC sold/billed/announced it as a great book for people who normally don't read DC/Batman and Robin to get into for the first time. They wanted an 'iconic' story, that shows (with clarity), and iconic interpretation of the character that wouldn't feel 'old' or 'new', but could be a timeless, iconic portrayal of the character, Robin. Weren't we also supposed to get that type of portrayal of Batman?

So....what happened....?

Frank Miller probably decided to do whatever the hell he wanted and that was good enough for DC.

[JoeE]

To be honest, I can't stand anything coming out of the All-Star line. So far, it just seems like an avenue for high-profile creators to let their absolute worst tendencies run wild.

[mattbrand]

As someone who never bought a Batman single before ASB, I gotta say that I agree. I went into it thinking it was going to be what DC announced it as, and was genuinely disappointed. I got 3 issues in and dropped it. If I had known it was what Miller has made it, I probably wouldn't have bought any issues.

ASS on the other hand is rocking my world. It's the only DC monthly I buy.

[Donal DeLay]

Just for good measure:


I decided to stop buying the series with issue 3. I'm not going to supprt a company that REWARDS delays with more work.

So I'm waiting for the trade on this one. If this book came out regularly, I'd have bought each issue. This series (from what I've seen, including previews and such) is brilliant. It IS an iconic look at these characters, but in a way no one expected, which means people don't like it, and that's fine. He's fucking up the status quo that he helped usher into existance. He's taking these characters and saying "look, this is how they should be acting and since no one else sees it, I'm gonna lambast it all to hell so no one does. Stop copying me!"

Wonder Woman is an Amazon princess, and Amazonian women are supposed to hate men and think they're superior.

Batman is in his second year as the dark knight, he's got a huge ego.

Robin is a smart-ass kid, and he's going to bring Batman down from his Godcomplex and back into the reality of "the mission"

Superman is and always has been a goodie two-shoes puppet.

This is Miller's iconic take on the characters, and he's spot-on with all of them so far.

And the writing is nothing like Sin City. They both have distinct tones and rhythms.

[Ryan Elliott]

Wow. For so many people apparently hating it, you all sure do like to buy it and/or read it.

[JoeE]

I like to read it (again, I will not have that thing in my house) in the same sense that I like to look at car crashes when I'm driving by them.

[Ryan Elliott]

I like to read it (again, I will not have that thing in my house) in the same sense that I like to look at car crashes when I'm driving by them.



I don't read something that I don't like. That way I don't even know it exists.

[Jerome Gibbons]

Oh, All-Star Batman is great, for sure. I always thought I wasn't getting enough Batman acting like a cartoon character until the book came along.

[Shwicaz]

Do we really need another ASB&R thread? There are like three others on the first page:?

yeah, well I'm the goddam shwicaz!

(doesn't have the same ring, does it? :cry: )

[Ryan Elliott]

Oh, All-Star Batman is great, for sure. I always thought I wasn't getting enough of Batman acting like a cartoon character until the book came along.



I'm not really surprised at all that people are against different interpretations of characters that have been around for 60+ years.

[Gavin]

I'm done with it until trade, at which point I may pick it up. I'm torn. It's funny, to a point, but it's not what I thought it would be and I'm still trying to digest what it is.

[Ryan Elliott]

I'm done with it until trade, at which point I may pick it up. I'm torn. It's funny, to a point, but it's not what I thought it would be and I'm still trying to digest what it is.



That is essentially what it is. Miller is taking the template of the contemporary, grim-n-gritty superhero comic, ironically a style of comic he helped usher in so it's a bit self-deprecating, and the state Batman has been written in over the past fifteen years or so, and turning it up to eleven. This is Frank Miller doing Identity Crisis, The Dark Knight Returns, Watchman, Civil War, Daredevil, paranoid Batman, New X-Men, and all the other hyper-realistic, gritty superhero comics and being even more hyperbolic about it. It's satirical and highly entertaining. I don't necessarily laugh at it, but I do enjoy it tremendously.

You know why I know this is a fact? Because he told me when I asked him at Wizard World Chicago '05 and then later went on to confirm this in the panel he did with Jim Lee.


There you go. That's pretty much what it is. And it's Batman by way of Sin City.

[Jonny Z]

i dunno, didio lies all the time? i guess that's been proven to be true.

in all honesty, all i expected from the book is a fun frank miller yarn. this is the guy that's done pretty much just sin city and dark knight strikes back in recent years. his stories have slowly evolved into what they are in all star batman, so i'm not really shocked over what i've been reading.

[bartleby]

"it doesn' t get much better than this!"


Talk about your huge lies...

[Jerome Gibbons]

I'm not really surprised at all that people are against different interpretations of characters that have been around for 60+ years.

I don't understand what you mean.

[Albert]

They changed their minds?

[NickT]

I do wonder how different the reaction would have been were the book marketed more appropriately for what it was.

[Matt Jay]

I do wonder how different the reaction would have been were the book marketed more appropriately for what it was.

Indeed. There wouldn't be half as many apologists if the author's name were Chuck Austen.

[Gavin]

There you go. That's pretty much what it is. And it's Batman by way of Sin City.

Yeah. That sums it up. I guess I'm still reconciling my expection (iconic) with what we got (Sin City).

[Generic Poster]

Grant Morrison's Batman should really be All-Star Batman, IMO.

[Donal DeLay]

I do wonder how different the reaction would have been were the book marketed more appropriately for what it was. I don't know, I think it's pretty much delivering exactly what they advertised:


All Star creators working on iconic versions of our All Star characters


the creators are telling stories set in a contemporary period that both builds on the histories of the respective characters, while remaining fresh and as timeless as possible


These versions and stories, while not “dumbed down” at all, will bring to the page what’s pure about the character – the iconic characteristics.

At least, I see it that way.

[James Patrick]

There's probably nothing malicious about it. It may very well just be the books were announced before they were written and as what they were intended to be, and then the end result of ABMAR was either Miller not following through with what they wanted or with what he wanted. If it's not what they wanted, who tells him no? No matter the quality, he's the goddamn frank miller and he generated and generates more money for them than few other people. If Miller's not following through with what he wanted, the book may just have gotten away from him and he fell back on his Millerisms. Maybe he wanted to do something or was asked to do something that wasn't within his voice. I doubt there was any lying and suspect intentions were for one thing but something came out of the process.

[JoshM]

I think they just meant it wasn't going to be the like the Ultimate line. There is no new established universe. And it is more "mainstream" than Dark Knight Returns.

[The Sentient Xbox]

you know what Im sick of? people saying "You guys just dont get it, clearly its just Miller mocking the gritty comics that he made popular." As a way to justify it as "cool" and "artistic."

That is SO not the case. This is very similar to a lot of what Miller has done recently, and its not all that far off from his characterizations in his really popular work either.

Me personally, the book is kinda fun and over the top...and even though Im a Jim Lee fan I think it would work better if Frank were doing the art himself. I dont hate the book, I actually kind of enjoy it.

I really think that if you got this same exact story with Frank Miller art, it would be a pretty decent hit. Frank Miller dialogue and characters just dont work with more realistic and conventional artists.

[Doc Randy]

There's probably nothing malicious about it. It may very well just be the books were announced before they were written and as what they were intended to be, and then the end result of ABMAR was either Miller not following through with what they wanted or with what he wanted. If it's not what they wanted, who tells him no? No matter the quality, he's the goddamn frank miller and he generated and generates more money for them than few other people. If Miller's not following through with what he wanted, the book may just have gotten away from him and he fell back on his Millerisms. Maybe he wanted to do something or was asked to do something that wasn't within his voice. I doubt there was any lying and suspect intentions were for one thing but something came out of the process.

ding ding ding!

You hit the nail on the head, sir.

[Ray G.]

At this point, it's got to be a joke. It just has to be.

[Marcdachamp]

Indeed. There wouldn't be half as many apologists if the author's name were Chuck Austen.

Chuck Austen could've written Watchmen and his head would've been on a pike for fucking up Charleton's characters.

[VonDoom]

When the All Star line was announced, DC (and Dan Didio, specifically), told us that the All Star line was to give us 'iconic' versions of these characters.

The article:

http://www.newsarama.com/DC/AS/AS_Batman.htm


What was announced:



Dan Didio:



From the article:




Now, you have people saying that people who don't dig the book aren't getting the 'obvious satire', and 'parody'.

And yet, I think the problem that many have with the book isn't that it is written as an over the top story.....but, rather, that DC sold/billed/announced it as a great book for people who normally don't read DC/Batman and Robin to get into for the first time. They wanted an 'iconic' story, that shows (with clarity), and iconic interpretation of the character that wouldn't feel 'old' or 'new', but could be a timeless, iconic portrayal of the character, Robin. Weren't we also supposed to get that type of portrayal of Batman?

So....what happened....?

Seconded. I was really excited for my favourite Bat-writer and Bat-artist to get doing some seriously amazing Batman. Instead, I got "the Goddamn Batman". A terrible disappointment. On the other hand, Dini's Detective is friggin amazing. It's very much what ASB should have been.

[Donal DeLay]

Seconded. I was really excited for my favourite Bat-writer and Bat-artist to get doing some seriously amazing Batman. Instead, I got "the Goddamn Batman". A terrible disappointment. On the other hand, Dini's Detective is friggin amazing. It's very much what ASB should have been. Typically serious moody Batman stories that are more redundant, especially with character portrayal, then they are iconic?

And I do love Dini's work but he's not doing anything innovative with the character(s) in his book that Miller hasn't already done.

I'd rather see a fresh take on the Batman universe, and that's what this book is, whether it's liked or hated.

[Maestro]

Maybe the delays are part of the joke too!

[Patton]

There you go. That's pretty much what it is. And it's Batman by way of Sin City.

Who wrote that?

[Adam Geen]

Yeah, screw this book. Dropped a long long long long time ago. Lee's art was pretty enough tho but fuck it.

[Mark Mavro (kryptic6)]

Typically serious moody Batman stories that are more redundant, especially with character portrayal, then they are iconic?

And I do love Dini's work but he's not doing anything innovative with the character(s) in his book that Miller hasn't already done.

I'd rather see a fresh take on the Batman universe, and that's what this book is, whether it's liked or hated.

You can't say that. Miller's never done "detective" stories. That's what Dini's doing.

I would rather see a fresh take that's liked, and that's what Dini's doing.

I could write a book about Batman wiping his ass for 22 pages. That's fresh, right? Never been done, so it must be better than Dini's book, right?

[Ryan Elliott]

Who wrote that?



Todd Kearns.

[Donal DeLay]

You can't say that. Miller's never done "detective" stories. That's what Dini's doing.

I would rather see a fresh take that's liked, and that's what Dini's doing.

I could write a book about Batman wiping his ass for 22 pages. That's fresh, right? Never been done, so it must be better than Dini's book, right? Dini's not doing a fresh take. Plenty of stories of Batman as a detective have been done, and done just as well or better. Dini's a great writer, but he isn't doing anything I haven't read before.

Miller did something new with Batman back in the day, and he's doing something different now. Dini is just retreading frequented ground. His comic stories aren't any different than his animated stories.

So, I would rather see a fresh take that's liked, and that's what Miller is doing.

[Garra]

The delays on this book is what helps keep me buying it. :)

I find the book funny and entertaining. I dont care about seeing Batman as he has been done 100 times already, I like this being something different, and shocking, and something that makes people talk. Even if they dont like it. There are hundreds of books out there I dont like and I dont talk about any of them, so this book must be doing something right in that regards.

I dont take it to serious I guess, I sit back, relax, open it up and prepare to read something different from what I have ever read before, and so far it certainly has not let me down in that regards.

[Patton]

Todd Kearns.

Okay well, New X-Men is a far cry from hyperrealistic.

[Ryan Elliott]

The delays on this book is what helps keep me buying it. :)

I find the book funny and entertaining. I dont care about seeing Batman as he has been done 100 times already, I like this being something different, and shocking, and something that makes people talk. Even if they dont like it. There are hundreds of books out there I dont like and I dont talk about any of them, so this book must be doing something right in that regards.

I dont take it to serious I guess, I sit back, relax, open it up and prepare to read something different from what I have ever read before, and so far it certainly has not let me down in that regards.


It's just so funny to see four or five different threads on the front page that pertain to a book that almost EVERYBODY hates or doesn't read.

So freakin' funny.

[Garra]

Disregard I see now.

[VonDoom]

Okay well, New X-Men is a far cry from hyperrealistic.

Yeah, well . . . that one wasn't much good either, in my ever-so-humble opinion.

I guess my beef with Batman is that it was hyped and promoted as one thing, and it delivers another. False advertising, sez I. FALSE!

[Guirk the Thudner]

Frank Miller has always and only written Frank Miller's Batman. This book is the sequel to Year One, and the prequel to DKR and DKSB. It takes place in the magical land of DK, where the world is harsh and unforgiving just as Miller has always portrayed it, and Batman acts accordingly.

Maybe it isn't "All Star." I think the more apporpriate name would have been "Darkest Knight."

And (respectfully) fuck the haters.

[The Human Target]

Dan Didio also said Infinite Crisis had nothing to do with Crisis on Infinite Earths.

He's pretty much full of shit, seemingly.


I enjoy the number of people in this thread that kinda missed the point of it.

[Masculine Todd]

I'll argue to the death that it's a satire, again because Miller told fans this at the WW:C '05 panel that I attended and also due to the fact that, while chatting with him at a signing, he told me so.

However, I do concur that, while the book is deliciously good, it in no way should have been All Star Batman. Any story that was crafted for the all star version should have been an iconic, timeless representation of the true essence of the character that captured the ambiance of classic Batman lore. Regardless, while what has been presented is the polar opposite (hyperbolic, excessively violent caricatures of the characters in over-the-top situations done so in an attempt to critique the state of current American comics), and while I do agree it has no place in an All Star book, it's what has been presented to the reader, so you can either choose to dislike it because of what it wasn't promised to be, you can harbor disdain toward the title because you don't find it to be the quality you expect, but spitting venom because it's not what it was advertised to be FIVE ISSUES IN is juvenile.

It sucks that DC didn't give an accurate view of the title during their marketing campaign. Conversely, after the second issue, everyone knew what kind of title this was going to be, so I don't understand perpetuating this bitterness and bitchiness. It's still good to many, while not necessarily being what anyone thought. If you don't like it, move on.

[ThisSpaceForRent]

Do we really need another ASB&R thread? There are like three others on the first page:?

This only happens every 8 months when there's a new issue...settle down.
It'll phase out within a couple days....

[Evan the Shaggy]

I remember reading an interview with Frank Miller when he was talking about the Joker eventually appearing in the book. Batman is beating the shit out of a 12 year old, even the Joker's gonna be like "Whoa...uhmmm...maybe I should just leave."

[Matt Jay]

I'll argue to the death that it's a satire, again because Miller told fans this at the WW:C '05 panel that I attended and also due to the fact that, while chatting with him at a signing, he told me so.

However, I do concur that, while the book is deliciously good, it in no way should have been All Star Batman. Any story that was crafted for the all star version should have been an iconic, timeless representation of the true essence of the character that captured the ambiance of classic Batman lore. Regardless, while what has been presented is the polar opposite (hyperbolic, excessively violent caricatures of the characters in over-the-top situations done so in an attempt to critique the state of current American comics), and while I do agree it has no place in an All Star book, it's what has been presented to the reader, so you can either choose to dislike it because of what it wasn't promised to be, you can harbor disdain toward the title because you don't find it to be the quality you expect, but spitting venom because it's not what it was advertised to be FIVE ISSUES IN is juvenile.

It sucks that DC didn't give an accurate view of the title during their marketing campaign. Conversely, after the second issue, everyone knew what kind of title this was going to be, so I don't understand perpetuating this bitterness and bitchiness. It's still good to many, while not necessarily being what anyone thought. If you don't like it, move on.
What's wrong with harboring disdain? You don't have a problem that Frank Miller already did it in his followup to DKR, yet continues to spit venom at current American comics with ASBR. By your logic, he said his piece, shouldn't he just move on?

[A.Huerta]

I still need a link with Miller saying its a parody.

And why cant this apply to any other medium? People disliked Spider-man 3 but thats because they didnt "get it", right?

[Masculine Todd]

What's wrong with harboring disdain? You don't have a problem that Frank Miller already did it in his followup to DKR, yet continues to spit venom at current American comics with ASBR. By your logic, he said his piece, shouldn't he just move on?


If Miller still has things to say about the contemporary climate of comics, then why should he be barred from doing so, making DC money, and entertaining those who enjoy his rants? That is just absurd.

The reason I think it's equally inane to continue to bitch about Miller's run is due to the fact that nothing productive comes from it. While Miller perpetuates his agenda against current comics, he makes revenue for DC and gives his fans something tangible to read. When people continually complain about the series being the antithesis of what it was marketed to be after five issues, or saying "yeah, it sucks and people who like it don't know what they're talking about" not only does it prove to be a fruitless and monotonous endeavor, it also insults those who enjoy it, such as myself. ---unless, you do so without insulting those who do like the comic. Objective criticism is always welcomed, if not done repetitively, and lets face it, three different threads about ASB&R on the same day is repetitive---

[Akira]

I still need a link with Miller saying its a parody.

And why cant this apply to any other medium? People disliked Spider-man 3 but thats because they didnt "get it", right?

I seem to remember you and I "not getting" Superman Returns last year ;)

[A.Huerta]

I seem to remember you and I "not getting" Superman Returns last year ;)

Yeah, I didnt "get" that one either.

[Matt Jay]

If Miller still has things to say about the contemporary climate of comics, then why should he be barred from doing so, making DC money, and entertaining those who enjoy his rants? That is just absurd.

The reason I think it's equally inane to continue to bitch about Miller's run is due to the fact that nothing productive comes from it. While Miller perpetuates his agenda against current comics, he makes revenue for DC and gives his fans something tangible to read. When people continually complain about the series being the antithesis of what it was marketed to be after five issues, or saying "yeah, it sucks and people who like it don't know what they're talking about" not only does it prove to be a fruitless and monotonous endeavor, it also insults those who enjoy it, such as myself. ---unless, you do so without insulting those who do like the comic. Objective criticism is always welcomed, if not done repetitively, and lets face it, three different threads about ASB&R on the same day is repetitive---
So the distinction is money. If someone is getting paid to bitch, then it's fine. But if someone isn't getting paid to bitch, then it's pointless. That strikes me as a ridiculous distinction to make. My opinion should matter to you because I'm at work right now, so in a way, I am getting paid to bitch.

[Masculine Todd]

So the distinction is money. If someone is getting paid to bitch, then it's fine. But if someone isn't getting paid to bitch, then it's pointless. That strikes me as a ridiculous distinction to make. My opinion should matter to you because I'm at work right now, so in a way, I am getting paid to bitch.

Your bitching is giving anyone anything productive. We all have opinions. We should all be able to voice them. But c'mon. How repetitive is it to hear the same complaints over and over about All Star Batman when we all know what this beast is? Furthermore, I'm not saying you necessarily, but I've read so many "those who enjoy ASB are making fake excusses" or "they don't have good taste" or "they don't know good comics." That transcends repitition and becomes insulting. Yes, Miller has a right to express his disatisfaction with the current comic scene because he does so creatively, makes a company money and gives readers a creative expression that many want to read, wheras All Star Batman rants are the same thing over and over, yet do not produce anything tangible except more negativity and, quite often, spitefulness toward fellow posters and fans.

[greg donovan]

if this book actually came out every montlh i would have dropped it. but since it is so sporatic i will continue to buy it.