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View Full Version : Not to be a conspiracy nut.. (DC Countdown related)



Dr. Omega
05-08-2007, 09:00 AM
Countdown has a bunch of strikes against it:

1) They won't tell what it is about, so there is no compelling reason to want to buy it
2) They are upping the price from 52 another .50
3) The Multiverse stuff turned a lot of people off of DC, or at least large-scale Event books.

So checking Diamond's list this week, I notice that the actual number of DCU/Superhero books is very low. I am only getting two books this week.

Do you think DC planned it this way; scheduling a really slow week to launch Countdown, in hopes that more people will pick it up?


Dr. Ω

TIP
05-08-2007, 09:04 AM
Countdown has a bunch of strikes against it:

1) They won't tell what it is about, so there is no compelling reason to want to buy it

Have you seen the previews available on-line?



2) They are upping the price from 52 another .50

Oh no!
:wink:



3) The Multiverse stuff turned a lot of people off of DC, or at least large-scale Event books.


What?



So checking Diamond's list this week, I notice that the actual number of DCU/Superhero books is very low. I am only getting two books this week.

Do you think DC planned it this way; scheduling a really slow week to launch Countdown, in hopes that more people will pick it up?


Dr. Ω

:mistrust:

T

Ashwin Pande
05-08-2007, 09:09 AM
weirdly enough most people i've talked to are happy and excited that the multiverse returned..

not me.

i hate it. it's a pointless and unnecessary step backward. And the reasoning they've given so far for bringing it back rings very familiar with how excited DC was over hypertime... and we all remember how well that worked out for them..

Anyway I think Countdown will sell because it's a gimmick book like 52 was and that sold like crazy..

and that theory of yours might be true.. I know a guy who had a theory that DC puts bad writers on books or characters they want to kill off.. for instance right after Johns left Flash it became a pretty dull and boring book.. and presto... OYL Wally was gone... I think their hope was to make people's recent memory of Wally be bad so they'd miss him less and bitch about his being replaced less.. it seemed to make sense to me.

Akira
05-08-2007, 09:31 AM
*sigh* So the ARE bringing the multiverse back? Why does DC constantly make moves to alienate potential new fans?

Jef UK
05-08-2007, 09:34 AM
I know a guy who had a theory that DC puts bad writers on books or characters they want to kill off.. for instance right after Johns left Flash it became a pretty dull and boring book.. and presto... OYL Wally was gone... I think their hope was to make people's recent memory of Wally be bad so they'd miss him less and bitch about his being replaced less.. it seemed to make sense to me.

I'm giving you my newly invented "Boner Prize" for stellar achievements in bone-headed thinking.

From here on out the Boner Prize will appear thusly:

*Boner Prize*

Congratulations on not only being the first recipient, but inspiring the Boner Prize itself!

ClintP
05-08-2007, 09:34 AM
All I know is the mutliverse/new god stuff confuses me and I have read countless articles and wiki's about it over the last couple years. My head hurts now just thinking about it. Can they at least make more of the DCU cartoons so I can buy that?

TIP
05-08-2007, 09:37 AM
*sigh* So the ARE bringing the multiverse back? Why does DC constantly make moves to alienate potential new fans?

Serious Question:

How does this alienate new fans?

T

Ashwin Pande
05-08-2007, 09:37 AM
I'm giving you my newly invented "Boner Prize" for stellar achievements in bone-headed thinking.

From here on out the Boner Prize will appear thusly:

*Boner Prize*

Congratulations on not only being the first recipient, but inspiring the Boner Prize itself!

Oh... this.. this is so unexpected..

I don't even have a speech prepared.. All I can say is.. you people loathe me... you really, really loathe me!

Jef UK
05-08-2007, 09:37 AM
Oh... this.. this is so unexpected..

I don't even have a speech prepared.. All I can say is.. you people loathe me... you really, really loathe me!

:lol:

Well played!

Jerome Gibbons
05-08-2007, 09:39 AM
How long before the multiverse is destroyed again, you think? You just know that's going to be the focus of an event at some point down the line.

I'm thinking within the next five years.

SteveZegers
05-08-2007, 09:40 AM
It's really not so confusing. I suppose the way they got there could be, but "Oh yeah, there are 52 different alternate universes." I don't see why that would be tough for anyone.

Ashwin Pande
05-08-2007, 09:41 AM
And I'll be reading Countdown cause Dini's inolved and the characters in it appeal to me much more than the 52 characters did.. the only one I cared about in 52 was Vic Sage and well.. sigh.

Anyway.. Darkseid.. YES!!! Jimmy Olsen.. he's supposed to die.. so.. YES!!
Mary Marvel... meh.. Jean Loring... meh.. the two criminals handcuffed to each other seems interesting and cool.

Of course I do happen to have the book sent to me for free so it's less of an issue. I probably wouldn't spend money on the book though.

Buk Was Right
05-08-2007, 09:42 AM
Serious Question:

How does this alienate new fans?

T

getting caught up on one universe is hard enough, but to say: oh by the way there's a whole MULTIVERSE you'll need to understand could alienate more casual fans.

there's also the argument to be made that the multiverse offers more options and therefore is more accessible to fans...

honestly my dc reading is down to batman and all star superman jla and jsa are on the bubble)... so i really don't care much.

yskitch
05-08-2007, 09:43 AM
All I know is the mutliverse/new god stuff confuses me and I have read countless articles and wiki's about it over the last couple years. My head hurts now just thinking about it. Can they at least make more of the DCU cartoons so I can buy that?

if i have to do homework and read someplace other than my comic to figure something out, i am so not buying it...that is just too much to expect of your readership (imho)

Jef UK
05-08-2007, 09:46 AM
if i have to do homework and read someplace other than my comic to figure something out, i am so not buying it...that is just too much to expect of your readership (imho)

How does having a multiverse make you have to do homework and read someplace other that your comic to figure something out?

Children understand the concept of multiple universes. Why can't some comic readers?

Lanowar
05-08-2007, 09:49 AM
I am still confused as to how people find it difficult? 52 Universes each one different some might be based on other imprints of DC titles and others the various companies DC brought out over the years. I'm trying to see what the complicated part is? You don't even need to read anything else to get that.

Marvel's Multiverse is just as easy to explain.

TIP
05-08-2007, 09:49 AM
How does having a multiverse make you have to do homework and read someplace other that your comic to figure something out?

Children understand the concept of multiple universes. Why can't some comic readers?

:thumb:

Kingsumo
05-08-2007, 09:49 AM
if i have to do homework and read someplace other than my comic to figure something out, i am so not buying it...that is just too much to expect of your readership (imho)

Agreed. After about 10 years off I decided to get back into comics again. Given the choice between having to deal with multiple universes, random timelines and the knowledge that it will be resent within the next one to five years... or going with a much more simplified reboot (post civil war marvel)

I know which one I opted to go with... Even if a lot of the points are not original, I know that it has been a hell of a lot easier to slip back into reading with this method.

Buk Was Right
05-08-2007, 09:49 AM
Children understand the concept of multiple universes. Why can't some comic readers?

one of the things that i find off putting is that each alternate earth has an assigned number and a specific identity.

it can't just be: it happened on an alternate earth.

it has to be: it happened on earth 9235Q the dinosaur richard nixon earth.

Jef UK
05-08-2007, 09:50 AM
:thumb:

http://www.ravenna.com/~forbes/images/spock.jpg

TIP
05-08-2007, 09:52 AM
http://www.ravenna.com/~forbes/images/spock.jpg

I had to stop watching every iteration of Star Trek once the Mirror Universe was intro'd.

T

Jef UK
05-08-2007, 09:52 AM
it can't just be: it happened on an alternate earth..

Sure it can.


it has to be: it happened on earth 9235Q the dinosaur richard nixon earth.

No it doesn't. But it can.

SteveZegers
05-08-2007, 09:52 AM
one of the things that i find off putting is that each alternate earth has an assigned number and a specific identity.

it can't just be: it happened on an alternate earth.

it has to be: it happened on earth 9235Q the dinosaur richard nixon earth.

Those are just the really well-known ones. The Crime Syndicate world, the JSA world, the "Still fighting WW2" world, the "We didn't completely screw up Captain Marvel" world, etc...

They aren't all defined yet.

ClintP
05-08-2007, 09:54 AM
Serious Question:

How does this alienate new fans?

T

Because it is incredibly hard to understand. With Marvel, we get thrown an idea that anyone can understand with a re-cap page and off you go.

Jef UK
05-08-2007, 09:57 AM
Because it is incredibly hard to understand. With Marvel, we get thrown an idea that anyone can understand with a re-cap page and off you go.

How does the fact that a multiverse exists in the DCU make you not understand any given Batman book?

Do you feel like the Marvel Zombie universe needs to be explained in the recap of the Amazing Spider-Man book you are reading? Because Marvel has a multiverse too. Hence: "616."

How is the concept of a multiverse with different histories difficult to understand in any way in the first place? It's the premise of countless stories in fiction. You could argue that it's the premise of every fictional story.

Deej
05-08-2007, 09:58 AM
*sigh* So the ARE bringing the multiverse back? Why does DC constantly make moves to alienate potential new fans?

I think this only backfires on them if they have stories mixing up characters between multiple universes. In other ways, hey, you might be getting brand new stories from Earth-5 from the ground up! So perhaps that would bring in newer readers.

Buk Was Right
05-08-2007, 09:58 AM
Because Marvel has a multiverse too. Hence: "616."

wait... what does 616 mean?







heh... just yankin' ya. thought i'd lighten it up a bit. we're getting a little serious in here.

ClintP
05-08-2007, 09:59 AM
I get the basic concept and all of that. It just seems to me that too much importance is placed on the concept over stories that really get down into the characters. I would buy the shit out of DC if the comics were like the cartoons. I can't get enough of those damn things.

Jef UK
05-08-2007, 10:00 AM
wait... what does 616 mean?







heh... just yankin' ya. thought i'd lighten it up a bit. we're getting a little serious in here.

:D

Jef UK
05-08-2007, 10:06 AM
It just seems to me that too much importance is placed on the concept over stories that really get down into the characters.


But 52 was a character driven book. :-? One of its storylines was about the reformation of the multiverse. Not every comic published by DC is a story about their multiverse. Very few of them are. Have you read the stories we're talking about, or are you talking about wikipedia entries compiling several decades worth of DC comic lore into a single prose narrative? Because of course that is confusing, and has nothing to do with this month's, say, issue of Batman.


Also, the architect of Countdown is the architect of the DC animated universe.

Kingsumo
05-08-2007, 10:07 AM
How does the fact that a multiverse exists in the DCU make you not understand any given Batman book?

Do you feel like the Marvel Zombie universe needs to be explained in the recap of the Amazing Spider-Man book you are reading? Because Marvel has a multiverse too. Hence: "616."

How is the concept of a multiverse with different histories difficult to understand in any way in the first place? It's the premise of countless stories in fiction. You could argue that it's the premise of every fictional story.

It is not that there is multiple universes, it is that there seems to be no end of mixing in between them, then that gets retconned out of existance, then the whole thing ceases to be, but no it really is.. sort of.. it is all to much to really bother with..

Don't get me wrong, older stand alones like Hitman and Starman were good in and of themself, but they are also considerable older, and probably don't actually exist in continuity anymore.

As for Marvel having multiple universes.. you don't really see Spiderman 2099 traveling back into the past to join the avengers along side Zombie iron man to fight against the ultimate universe...

But then if they did you could always have gen 1 gi-joe do a 'prime punch' and fix it all. :roll:

ClintP
05-08-2007, 10:08 AM
How does the fact that a multiverse exists in the DCU make you not understand any given Batman book?

Do you feel like the Marvel Zombie universe needs to be explained in the recap of the Amazing Spider-Man book you are reading? Because Marvel has a multiverse too. Hence: "616."

How is the concept of a multiverse with different histories difficult to understand in any way in the first place? It's the premise of countless stories in fiction. You could argue that it's the premise of every fictional story.
I guess you do have a point. Dini's detective has zero to do with any multiple earth stuff thus far. I am getting that and Flash.

I like the zombie stuff, but my only beef with it is I want it to stay seperate. I have an easier time buying into the reg marvel universe, ultimate, and zombie if they all have nothing to do with one another. I can read each one as it's own thing. The things that start crossing over, to me seem like they are trying to capitolize on something that is hot (which is fine for some, but just not my personal favorite)

I am all for variations of universes from within a comic/novel/tv show, but once those variations start off shooting into pre-established "universes", I lose interest and my brain melts.:D

Dr. Omega
05-08-2007, 10:08 AM
In and of itself, a multiverse is not an issue.

DC's Multiverse is. Because of Infinite Crisis, all the heroes (and even civilians) now remember the pre-Crisis Multiverse, but all of the pre-crisis continuity no longer exists on New Earth. And now there is a new Multiverse.

Allow me to demonstrate:
The old-time JSAers remembers fighting with the Earth-2 1940's Batman. But then the Universe reformed back to new Earth, so a 1940's Batman never existed. The old Earth-2 never existed. Except everyone who knew him, remembers him. And now there is a new Earth-2 that is completely different.

But make note: this is different than the Earth-2 in the Anti-matter Universe of Qward where the Crime Syndicate is located. The Crime Syndicate who used to come from Earth-3. But there is a new Earth-3. And a new World with a group who looks similar, but slightly different than the Crime Syndicate.

Are you catching my drift?

It shouldn't be this hard. It should be simply: the Crime Syndicate is from a parallel Earth.

The JLA/JLU cartoon pulled it off without any issues. Marvel pulls it off without issues. DC has mangled it so bad that noone knows what is going on. If these characters were real people, they would all be driven literally insane due to the conflicting memories in their head.

God knows, I am halfway there myself..


Dr. Ω

JamesV
05-08-2007, 10:10 AM
It is not that there is multiple universes, it is that there seems to be no end of mixing in between them, then that gets retconned out of existance, then the whole thing ceases to be, but no it really is.. sort of.. it is all to much to really bother with..

Don't get me wrong, older stand alones like Hitman and Starman were good in and of themself, but they are also considerable older, and probably don't actually exist in continuity anymore.

As for Marvel having multiple universes.. you don't really see Spiderman 2099 traveling back into the past to join the avengers along side Zombie iron man to fight against the ultimate universe...

But then if they did you could always have gen 1 gi-joe do a 'prime punch' and fix it all. :roll:

I love the idea of multiverses. Big fan of the idea of all of reality changing because of one instance. I love the idea of crossovers between realities.

What I'm not a fan of (and I'm not judging what DC WILL do, but what they HAVE done) is the mixing and matching and erasing and rewriting. If they wanted to bring it back, they should have just flat out brought it back.

Not well some people remember their Earth 2 histories and some don't, but they remember the multiverse, but not all parts of it, etc. etc. Stop the mix-and-match idea, and just go full bore into it!

SteveZegers
05-08-2007, 10:10 AM
In and of itself, a multiverse is not an issue.

DC's Multiverse is. Because of Infinite Crisis, all the heroes (and even civilians) now remember the pre-Crisis Multiverse, but all of the pre-crisis continuity no longer exists on New Earth. And now there is a new Multiverse.

Allow me to demonstrate:
The old-time JSAers remembers fighting with the Earth-2 1940's Batman. But then the Universe reformed back to new Earth, so a 1940's Batman never existed. The old Earth-2 never existed. Except everyone who knew him, remembers him. And now there is a new Earth-2 that is completely different.

But make note: this is different than the Earth-2 in the Anti-matter Universe of Qward where the Crime Syndicate is located. The Crime Syndicate who used to come from Earth-3. But there is a new Earth-3. And a new World with a group who looks similar, but slightly different than the Crime Syndicate.

Are you catching my drift?

It shouldn't be this hard. It should be simply: the Crime Syndicate is from a parallel Earth.

The JLA/JLU cartoon pulled it off without any issues. Marvel pulls it off without issues. DC has mangled it so bad that noone knows what is going on. If these characters were real people, they would all be driven literally insane due to the conflicting memories in their head.

God knows, I am halfway there myself..


Dr. Ω

But Booster is the only one that even knows about the new Multiverse. Why not wait to see how it develops?

ClintP
05-08-2007, 10:11 AM
But 52 was a character driven book. :-? One of its storylines was about the reformation of the multiverse. Not every comic published by DC is a story about their multiverse. Very few of them are. Have you read the stories we're talking about, or are you talking about wikipedia entries compiling several decades worth of DC comic lore into a single prose narrative? Because of course that is confusing, and has nothing to do with this month's, say, issue of Batman.


Also, the architect of Countdown is the architect of the DC animated universe.

I am about to start reading 52. I got them all from my best friend this weekend. Up to now, he has been spoilering it for as he went along so I could kind of gauge what was not being told from the OYL stuff I jumped on.

Yes, I know about Dini. I love that guy. Also, I have been buying titles by McDuffie recently once someone pointed out who he was.

ZombieSpeedball
05-08-2007, 10:11 AM
But Booster is the only one that even knows about the new Multiverse. Why not wait to see how it develops?

Yeah, how long is that gonna last?

TIP
05-08-2007, 10:12 AM
But then if they did you could always have gen 1 gi-joe do a 'prime punch' and fix it all. :roll:

Or rehash the Crazy Wanda story (done a couple times previously) and wipe out the Mutant population.

Or, now, make 'em forget the Civil War...

T

:twisted:

ClintP
05-08-2007, 10:12 AM
In and of itself, a multiverse is not an issue.

DC's Multiverse is. Because of Infinite Crisis, all the heroes (and even civilians) now remember the pre-Crisis Multiverse, but all of the pre-crisis continuity no longer exists on New Earth. And now there is a new Multiverse.

Allow me to demonstrate:
The old-time JSAers remembers fighting with the Earth-2 1940's Batman. But then the Universe reformed back to new Earth, so a 1940's Batman never existed. The old Earth-2 never existed. Except everyone who knew him, remembers him. And now there is a new Earth-2 that is completely different.

But make note: this is different than the Earth-2 in the Anti-matter Universe of Qward where the Crime Syndicate is located. The Crime Syndicate who used to come from Earth-3. But there is a new Earth-3. And a new World with a group who looks similar, but slightly different than the Crime Syndicate.

Are you catching my drift?

It shouldn't be this hard. It should be simply: the Crime Syndicate is from a parallel Earth.

The JLA/JLU cartoon pulled it off without any issues. Marvel pulls it off without issues. DC has mangled it so bad that noone knows what is going on. If these characters were real people, they would all be driven literally insane due to the conflicting memories in their head.

God knows, I am halfway there myself..


Dr. Ω

My brain melted until I saw dc cartoon.:lol:

SteveZegers
05-08-2007, 10:13 AM
Yeah, how long is that gonna last?

Who knows? It's a developing story. Why write off a story that hasn't happened yet as "too confusing"?

ZombieSpeedball
05-08-2007, 10:15 AM
Who knows? It's a developing story. Why write off a story that hasn't happened yet as "too confusing"?

I don't think it will be too confusing. There's a set number of world's in their Multiverse, and I'm looking forward to seeing it. I just think they'll get impatient with only Booster knowing about it. Then they'll bring in everybody. My money is on Blue Beetle learning about it when he inevitably runs into Booster Gold.

Akira
05-08-2007, 10:18 AM
Serious Question:

How does this alienate new fans?

T


How does having a multiverse make you have to do homework and read someplace other that your comic to figure something out?

Children understand the concept of multiple universes. Why can't some comic readers?

For me, the problem isn't neccisarily that there are multiple universes, but that those universes CONSTANTLY crossover. In Marvel you have The Marvel U and the Ultimate U. I don't have to worry about picking up a copy of Avengers and having the following conversation:

Me: "Hey that doesn't look like Wolverine"
Some Guy:"Oh, that's actually Wolverine's clone from Earth-2 who has some of the same powers of Wolverine, but with some differences."
Me: "Oh so this takes place on Earth-2?"
Some Guy: "No it's on Earth Prime. See Iron Man and Cap are the ones you're used to."
Me: "Oh Cool. (turns page) Wait a sec who's this?"
Some Guy: "That's Spider-Man"
Me: "Why is he like 15?"
Some Guy: "Cause he's from Earth-3."
Me: "So this takes place on Earth-3?"
Some Guy: "No, still Earth Prime."
Me: "Why are they all on Earth Prime?"
Some Guy: "Becuase all the realities got crushed together into a New Earth"
Me: "A New Earth?"
Some Guy: "Yeah, when Doctor Doom from Earth-3 joined forces with The Invisible Girl to fight The Invisible Woman they created an Infinite War that..."
Me: "Wait. Isn't Invisible Girl the same as Invisible Woman?"
Some Guy: "Well Invisible Girl is from Earth-2 and never became Invisible Woman there."
Me: "So what about all the old comics with Invisible Girl in them? They don't count?"
Some Guy: "They count, just not the same way they used to back then"
Me *walks away and buys New JLA and Mighty JSA*

ClintP
05-08-2007, 10:19 AM
Who knows? It's a developing story. Why write off a story that hasn't happened yet as "too confusing"?
As for me, I wouldn't say I am writing it off. But I am entitled to be confused, right?

I am very curious about what will happen or else I wouldn't have read those long ass history lessons on newsarama talking about all of the new god recaps.

I am going to read the 52 series pretty soon, and I will probably wait until Countdown is over and read it then. The main selling points for me is Dini and McKeever.

SteveZegers
05-08-2007, 10:21 AM
I don't think it will be too confusing. There's a set number of world's in their Multiverse, and I'm looking forward to seeing it. I just think they'll get impatient with only Booster knowing about it. Then they'll bring in everybody. My money is on Blue Beetle learning about it when he inevitably runs into Booster Gold.

My money is on a Flash. It's always a Flash.

Jef UK
05-08-2007, 10:22 AM
In and of itself, a multiverse is not an issue.

DC's Multiverse is. Because of Infinite Crisis, all the heroes (and even civilians) now remember the pre-Crisis Multiverse, but all of the pre-crisis continuity no longer exists on New Earth. And now there is a new Multiverse.

Allow me to demonstrate:
The old-time JSAers remembers fighting with the Earth-2 1940's Batman. But then the Universe reformed back to new Earth, so a 1940's Batman never existed. The old Earth-2 never existed. Except everyone who knew him, remembers him. And now there is a new Earth-2 that is completely different.

But make note: this is different than the Earth-2 in the Anti-matter Universe of Qward where the Crime Syndicate is located. The Crime Syndicate who used to come from Earth-3. But there is a new Earth-3. And a new World with a group who looks similar, but slightly different than the Crime Syndicate.

Are you catching my drift?

It shouldn't be this hard. It should be simply: the Crime Syndicate is from a parallel Earth.

The JLA/JLU cartoon pulled it off without any issues. Marvel pulls it off without issues. DC has mangled it so bad that noone knows what is going on. If these characters were real people, they would all be driven literally insane due to the conflicting memories in their head.

God knows, I am halfway there myself..


Dr. Ω

But you're the one insisting on all of that continuity minutia. Any reader (new or otherwise) picking up an issue of JLA wherein the Crime Syndicate appears need only know that they are from a parallel Earth. Including you. Why would anybody care about the history of past parallel Earths in the DCU when reading JLA if the story being read doesn't require that knowledge?

ClintP
05-08-2007, 10:22 AM
My money is on a Flash. It's always a Flash.

I just started buying that with OYL... Is it going to start getting trippy on me?:cry:

SteveZegers
05-08-2007, 10:24 AM
I just started buying that with OYL... Is it going to start getting trippy on me?:cry:

I think you'll be OK, but you never know. In the old days, the Flash was the only one that could vibrate between worlds. He's the one that discovered the alternate earth.

ClintP
05-08-2007, 10:26 AM
I think you'll be OK, but you never know. In the old days, the Flash was the only one that could vibrate between worlds. He's the one that discovered the alternate earth.

My past research has indicated me that. :)

I am enjoying this volume of Flash, though I have never read any other ones. I like the cliffhangers in each issue.

SteveZegers
05-08-2007, 10:27 AM
My past research has indicated me that. :)

I am enjoying this volume of Flash, though I have never read any other ones. I like the cliffhangers in each issue.

You should check out some of the Johns run if you get a chance. It's really good stuff.

ClintP
05-08-2007, 10:30 AM
You should check out some of the Johns run if you get a chance. It's really good stuff.

Is Wally from the comic like Wally from the cartoon? He was my favorite in the Justice League episodes. Part of why I picked up flash with OYL, because it seemed like a logical place to start.

SteveZegers
05-08-2007, 10:32 AM
Is Wally from the comic like Wally from the cartoon? He was my favorite in the Justice League episodes. Part of why I picked up flash with OYL, because it seemed like a logical place to start.

Not exactly, but close. He's not quite as jokey, but he does have a pretty similar attitude. The cool thing is, his whole run is like a big giant arc. So you have characters popping up, and things that don't pay off for a long time. It just developed really well.

Jef UK
05-08-2007, 10:34 AM
For me, the problem isn't neccisarily that there are multiple universes, but that those universes CONSTANTLY crossover. In Marvel you have The Marvel U and the Ultimate U.


Neither of those statements are true.

With Marvel you have an infinite amount of parallel universes as explored to this day in Exiles, Excalibur, X-Men (ever had to answer, "Who's Rachel Summers? Who's Cable? Who's Bishop? Who's Dark Beast? Who's Longshot? Who's Sugarman?), Marvel Zombies, Onslaught Reborn, and more.

As to DC: their universes aren't constantly crossing over. For a couple of years, while there weren't any multiverses I might add, we had a Lex doppelganger running around in some books, and Todd the Deadwonder in some others. Then we had an event comic, Infinite Crisis, which reastiblished the lack of a multiverse and got rid of those doppelgangers (for the most part). Now DC has reestablished a multiverse in 52. I don't think there's a single OYL book that has anything to do with the multiverse a year and half later.

And this is all coming from a guy who doesn't care for what stories DC is telling in their books. But that has nothing to do with the existence of a multiverse.

lonesomefool
05-08-2007, 10:34 AM
I think the 52 worlds could become confusing if not handled right. It all depends if the writers and editors, do not screw it up. Right now, it's not that hard to understand, no more so than any given issue of Exiles is. That said, I dont think Didio will be able to do that, he seems deadset on aiming DC comics at established readers.

And the Countdown shipping this week due to no competition isnt right, Countdown was always supposed to ship this week, DC had no way of knowing Marvel wasnt gonna put out any "big" books.

ClintP
05-08-2007, 10:36 AM
Not exactly, but close. He's not quite as jokey, but he does have a pretty similar attitude. The cool thing is, his whole run is like a big giant arc. So you have characters popping up, and things that don't pay off for a long time. It just developed really well.
Not as jokey? :(

Hmm.. Is Johns run self contained and complete? Did his run end prematurely like Rucka's WW?

I have heard many praises regarding this Flash. Part of why I became curious with the comics. I might pick up the first tpb now. I have often picked it up and flipped, but never purchased.

BenH
05-08-2007, 10:38 AM
I think Paul O'Brien from The X Axis summarized it well:


How many people really have fond memories of the Multiverse? It's been gone for 21 years! I don't remember it. I don't care about it. Yet this story seems to assume that it doesn't have to make me care about it, because it's the Multiverse, and it's just plain great. That attitude worries me. It's terribly backwards-looking.

I've been reading comics for over 20 years, but I did not read pre-crisis DC. Now, suddently, all that is back because the writers were nostalgic for it without any clear reason to uproot continuity once again. The DC universe has become exponentially more confusing. I don't understand the books I read for the last 20 years, not sure which stories "count" and which don't and thus I don't want to read them anymore.

And 20 years from now there might be writers who are nostalgic for post-crisis continuity and everything will be re-done again...

Darkhawk Fan
05-08-2007, 10:40 AM
I think it has to do with the Monitor's plans to kill of all the second generation heroes (Dick Grayson, Donna Troy, Kara Zor-El, Kyle Rayner). Although I hope they have a strong presence and not appear in 5 Out of 52 issues.

SteveZegers
05-08-2007, 10:40 AM
Not as jokey? :(

Hmm.. Is Johns run self contained and complete? Did his run end prematurely like Rucka's WW?

I have heard many praises regarding this Flash. Part of why I became curious with the comics. I might pick up the first tpb now. I have often picked it up and flipped, but never purchased.

It wrapped up a few months before the crisis. His run had a definate ending.

Akira
05-08-2007, 10:45 AM
Neither of those statements are true.

With Marvel you have an infinite amount of parallel universes as explored to this day in Exiles, Excalibur, X-Men (ever had to answer, "Who's Rachel Summers? Who's Cable? Who's Bishop? Who's Dark Beast? Who's Longshot? Who's Sugarman?), Marvel Zombies, Onslaught Reborn, and more.
Name the alternate earth versions of Bishop, Rachel Summers, Longshot and Sugar man (all mostly fringe characters mind you, unlike Flash, green Lantern, Superman, Supergirl, Superboy etc). They all came from divergent timelines and/or dimentions and had NO counterpart in the main Marvel U, hence, no confusion.
Same with the Marvel Zombies, there aren't Marvel Zombies from Earth Prime and Marvel Zombies from Earth 2.
Dark Beast was a mistake, one that the rectified by quietly never mentioning him again in main continuity. Same with Onslaught.


As to DC: their universes aren't constantly crossing over. For a couple of years, while there weren't any multiverses I might add, we had a Lex doppelganger running around in some books, and Todd the Deadwonder in some others. Then we had an event comic, Infinite Crisis, which reastiblished the lack of a multiverse and got rid of those doppelgangers (for the most part). Now DC has reestablished a multiverse in 52. I don't think there's a single OYL book that has anything to do with the multiverse a year and half later.

And this is all coming from a guy who doesn't care for what stories DC is telling in their books. But that has nothing to do with the existence of a multiverse.
Sum up Hawkman's timeline to me in 3 sentences.
Also in Death of Superman (DC's biggest mainstream story ever) care to tell me why Supergirl was a pink alien?

SteveZegers
05-08-2007, 10:48 AM
I think Paul O'Brien from The X Axis summarized it well:



I've been reading comics for over 20 years, but I did not read pre-crisis DC. Now, suddently, all that is back because the writers were nostalgic for it without any clear reason to uproot continuity once again. The DC universe has become exponentially more confusing. I don't understand the books I read for the last 20 years, not sure which stories "count" and which don't and thus I don't want to read them anymore.

And 20 years from now there might be writers who are nostalgic for post-crisis continuity and everything will be re-done again...

You could say the same thing about all the Marvel characters from the 70s that seem to be everywhere these days. The people that write the books now want to include the characters and settings that they grew up on. As long as the storys are entertaining, I don't see the problem.

ClintP
05-08-2007, 10:56 AM
Also in Death of Superman (DC's biggest mainstream story ever) care to tell me why Supergirl was a pink alien?
I remember reading that as a kid and actually laughing at her turning into putty and falling out of the sky. I don't know what her back story was, nor do I ever want to. Just leave me with that awesome childhood memory!:lol:

Akira
05-08-2007, 10:58 AM
I remember reading that as a kid and actually laughing at her turning into putty and falling out of the sky. I don't know what her back story was, nor do I ever want to. Just leave me with that awesome childhood memory!:lol:

I must know, dammit!:twisted:

SteveZegers
05-08-2007, 10:59 AM
Name the alternate earth versions of Bishop, Rachel Summers, Longshot and Sugar man (all mostly fringe characters mind you, unlike Flash, green Lantern, Superman, Supergirl, Superboy etc). They all came from divergent timelines and/or dimentions and had NO counterpart in the main Marvel U, hence, no confusion.
Same with the Marvel Zombies, there aren't Marvel Zombies from Earth Prime and Marvel Zombies from Earth 2.
Dark Beast was a mistake, one that the rectified by quietly never mentioning him again in main continuity. Same with Onslaught.


Sum up Hawkman's timeline to me in 3 sentences.
Also in Death of Superman (DC's biggest mainstream story ever) care to tell me why Supergirl was a pink alien?

Yeah, that was a mess. She became a good character whenshe got her own book, but whew! I can understand why they decided to bring back the Kryptonian version.

Akira
05-08-2007, 11:05 AM
You could say the same thing about all the Marvel characters from the 70s that seem to be everywhere these days. The people that write the books now want to include the characters and settings that they grew up on. As long as the storys are entertaining, I don't see the problem.

The problem is that the Marvel characters from the 70s are the same ones as today from the same timeline, earth and continuity. Iron Fist is Danny Rand, Moon Knight is Marc Spector, Luke Cage is Luke Cage. Who is the Flash now? Who is Green Lantern now? Etc. And more importantly, who will be those characters in 2 years? The same characters? New characters? Or will older characters from Pre-Silver age be dug up, dusted off again and given the tights?
That's DC's main issue. they constantly drag the past foreward and try to unify all their properties. Problem is, during the golden and silver age, they had all sorts of continuities that existed just fine on their own untill they tried to tie them all into each other. They should've just left them separated. I bet they'd have lots more fans than they do now. Cause how many people would've dropped books just because Superboy in smallville wasn't exactly the same as Superman, vs the number of people who got thier intelligence insulted by storylines constructed to combine timelines and continuities that were never meant to be combined?

SteveZegers
05-08-2007, 11:10 AM
The problem is that the Marvel characters from the 70s are the same ones as today from the same timeline, earth and continuity. Iron Fist is Danny Rand, Moon Knight is Marc Spector, Luke Cage is Luke Cage. Who is the Flash now? Who is Green Lantern now? Etc. And more importantly, who will be those characters in 2 years? The same characters? New characters? Or will older characters from Pre-Silver age be dug up, dusted off again and given the tights?
That's DC's main issue. they constantly drag the past foreward and try to unify all their properties. Problem is, during the golden and silver age, they had all sorts of continuities that existed just fine on their own untill they tried to tie them all into each other. They should've just left them separated. I bet they'd have lots more fans than they do now. Cause how many people would've dropped books just because Superboy in smallville wasn't exactly the same as Superman, vs the number of people who got thier intelligence insulted by storylines constructed to combine timelines and continuities that were never meant to be combined?

Well, it's the same Green lantern. Wasn't for a while, but it is now. Different Flash, but there have been a couple since then.

It's hard for me to understand where you're coming from because I really like all the changes. All the mixing up and combining. It's fun to me, that legacy. That's always been something I really like about DC books.

Was the first Crisis a mistake because it changed so much and sort of set the standard for this kind of thing? Maybe. But some really good stories came out of that, so it's hard for me to say.

Masculine Todd
05-08-2007, 11:17 AM
How does the fact that a multiverse exists in the DCU make you not understand any given Batman book?

Do you feel like the Marvel Zombie universe needs to be explained in the recap of the Amazing Spider-Man book you are reading? Because Marvel has a multiverse too. Hence: "616."

How is the concept of a multiverse with different histories difficult to understand in any way in the first place? It's the premise of countless stories in fiction. You could argue that it's the premise of every fictional story.

You know why the multiverse is confusing?

Following Infinite Crisis, the post-crisis (on infinite earths) continuity was merged with pre-crisis (on infinite earths) continuity, making for an extremely convoluted background of the DCU.

Hell, many details, past events, and other such occurrences have yet to be officially defined in this "New Earth" continuity. Nobody knows for sure what did or didn't happen.

For instance, it has been thrown around that Joe Chill did murder Bruce's parents now, but was caught. This has been contradicted in various other comics since OYL.

Another example, in the recent issue of Superman/Batman, Doc Magnus and the Metal Men had never before met either hero, yet in pre-crisis continuity they had (and in post, they hadn't), yet in 52, Magnus was greeted with shock by the JSA for being part of the murder island thing. So is he known or not? Which continuity is reigning supreme? For fans to be able to dive into something, it's good to have a concrete foundation for them to start upon. It works against readers when they aren't sure what to read to get a better understanding of the character for fear that what they've just read may or may not be part of the character's history, or just pieces.

Also see the current situation with The Legion, as referred to in the latest JSA issue. All this continuity thing is a result of the merging of the multiverse in '87 and the re-expansion in '06. In a recent comic (not sure which), Superman references both crises, yet the first crisis started the DCU over fresh. So what, no that the multiverse is back, the characters can remember both crises? Is the post and pre crises their own separate universes, with Earth 1 being pre and Earth 2 being post? It's a highly confusing.

I love DC. I continue to buy DC comics. If a title is good, chances are, I'll be there. However, this fluid sense of the past leaves things muddled and convoluted and hurts new and existing readers.

This is why I love Marvel's approach: no timeline wipes, no reboots. If something doesn't work, they take it in a whole new direction.

Lord Jermaine Retail
05-08-2007, 11:20 AM
Countdown has a bunch of strikes against it:

1) They won't tell what it is about, so there is no compelling reason to want to buy it
2) They are upping the price from 52 another .50
3) The Multiverse stuff turned a lot of people off of DC, or at least large-scale Event books.

So checking Diamond's list this week, I notice that the actual number of DCU/Superhero books is very low. I am only getting two books this week.

Do you think DC planned it this way; scheduling a really slow week to launch Countdown, in hopes that more people will pick it up?


Dr. Ω

They'd better have planned it to ship on a week where people are more likely to go ahead and try the #1. That's part of their job.

Akira
05-08-2007, 11:26 AM
Well, it's the same Green lantern. Wasn't for a while, but it is now. Different Flash, but there have been a couple since then.

It's hard for me to understand where you're coming from because I really like all the changes. All the mixing up and combining. It's fun to me, that legacy. That's always been something I really like about DC books.

Was the first Crisis a mistake because it changed so much and sort of set the standard for this kind of thing? Maybe. But some really good stories came out of that, so it's hard for me to say.

I honestly can't rate if it was a mistake from a story telling stand point, but I can say that as someone who's only read a handfull of DCU books, and really, really wanted to get into DCU post IC, it's a turn off. Once I heard the Multiverse was gone post IC, I thought "great, a good jumping on point". Then the pushed all the stories ahead a year, then brought them back, then started bringing back c and d characetrs in their main books while keeping their heavy hitters (in terms of recognition) on the sidelines. Say what you will about Cage, and spider-Woman being in the New Avengers, you still had Cap, Iron man, Spider-Man and Wolverine and just about everyone in and out of comics recognizes at least half of them. The JLA was Vixen, Red Tornado, Mr' Teriffic and some others for a while. Which is great for DC fans, but as a new reader, I couldn't care less. Then 52 started and it focused on Blue Beatle, Booster Gold, and the Question. All great characters, but (again) as a potential new fan I know next to nothing about them. I'm sure DC knows where their bread is buttered, which is why they keep bringing back old characters, but as someone who genuinely wanted to get into DC, it's just frustratin that I need to read a crossover from 20 years ago to "get it" :(

Akira
05-08-2007, 11:28 AM
This is why I love Marvel's approach: no timeline wipes, no reboots. If something doesn't work, they take it in a whole new direction.
Exactly. "Dark Beast sucked? Ok, let's not mention him again. Mojo ran his course? Ok, he's done. The Clone Saga was a debacle? Fuggetaboutit"

Jef UK
05-08-2007, 11:29 AM
Name the alternate earth versions of Bishop, Rachel Summers, Longshot and Sugar man (all mostly fringe characters mind you, unlike Flash, green Lantern, Superman, Supergirl, Superboy etc). They all came from divergent timelines and/or dimentions and had NO counterpart in the main Marvel U, hence, no confusion.
Same with the Marvel Zombies, there aren't Marvel Zombies from Earth Prime and Marvel Zombies from Earth 2.
Dark Beast was a mistake, one that the rectified by quietly never mentioning him again in main continuity. Same with Onslaught.


Sum up Hawkman's timeline to me in 3 sentences.
Also in Death of Superman (DC's biggest mainstream story ever) care to tell me why Supergirl was a pink alien?


So, your problem isn't multiverses but a character having doppelgangers?

Cherrypick as many storylines from 70 years worth of serial storytelling all you want, but what does it matter that Hawkman was originally a Golden Age character that they tried to update with several continuity relaunches when reading a Hawkman comic today? You don't need to know all that shit to watch Justice League Unlimited, so whay do you think you need to know it to read Hawkgirl? A reader would have to choose to hang onto all that esoteric information to let it boggle his mind while reading about Hawkman stopping a super-criminal bank robbery.

How does Super Girl's being a pink alien in a 1993 storyline befuddle someone reading Super Girl today? I think if you wouldn't insist on being confused, you'd find that esoteric continuity knowledge is trivial at best. It doesn't blow my mind, for example, that the first incarnation of Sabretooth didn't have real claws, just as it doesn't blow my mind that Power Man used to say "jive turkey." Just as it doesn't blow my mind that the JSA characters used to exist in a different DC universe, and now they don't.

RegularJoe
05-08-2007, 11:31 AM
i don't like the concept of the multiple earths, but i'm okay with it. it'll be just as impactful as 'hypertime' (i.e. not at all) but opens up the door to a whole mess of complications down the road.

Jef UK
05-08-2007, 11:31 AM
Then 52 started and it focused on Blue Beatle, Booster Gold, and the Question. All great characters, but (again) as a potential new fan I know next to nothing about them.

But that's the whole point of polishing off c-list characters. They don't have a lot of history to rewrite, and are as a matter of fact new reader friendly. On the other hand, there's no shortage of Batman and Superman books if you only want to read about characters you've heard of.

Jef UK
05-08-2007, 11:34 AM
For instance, it has been thrown around that Joe Chill did murder Bruce's parents now, but was caught. This has been contradicted in various other comics since OYL.

What does that matter when you're reading about Batman fighting ninja-Man-Bats? You applaud Marvel's ability to be able to forget silly continuity but won't allow yourself the indulgence?

Akira
05-08-2007, 11:39 AM
So, your problem isn't multiverses but a character having doppelgangers?

Cherrypick as many storylines from 70 years worth of serial storytelling all you want, but what does it matter that Hawkman was originally a Golden Age character that they tried to update with several continuity relaunches when reading a Hawkman comic today? You don't need to know all that shit to watch Justice League Unlimited, so whay do you think you need to know it to read Hawkgirl? A reader would have to choose to hang onto all that esoteric information to let it boggle his mind while reading about Hawkman stopping a super-criminal bank robbery.
So you're honestly comparing Dini's continuity to DCU? If the DCU was more like Dini's continuity I would love it.


How does Super Girl's being a pink alien in a 1993 storyline befuddle someone reading Super Girl today? I think if you wouldn't insist on being confused, you'd find that esoteric continuity knowledge is trivial at best. It doesn't blow my mind, for example, that the first incarnation of Sabretooth didn't have real claws, just as it doesn't blow my mind that Power Man used to say "jive turkey." Just as it doesn't blow my mind that the JSA characters used to exist in a different DC universe, and now they don't.
Well here's the thing: Sabretooth has real claws now and has had them consistantly for over 25 years, and there's no apperances that he will stop having them just as suddenly. As for slang changing that's just asinine. The supergirl thing confused me when I first read Death of Superman, as did Lex w/ hair, and her hanging with Lex. As I got older I looked into what happened and found out that all of these changes to the characters were due to a crossover that was about 10 years old at the time Death of Superman came out.

Also, it's not all CoIE. There was also Zero Hour and IC. The very fact that they keep needing to reboot and change thier continuity in such sweeping masive ways shows that even the editors think their continuity is a an issue.

Masculine Todd
05-08-2007, 11:46 AM
What does that matter when you're reading about Batman fighting ninja-Man-Bats? You applaud Marvel's ability to be able to forget silly continuity but won't allow yourself the indulgence?

I think you're over-simplifying this:

Depending on the comic, various series rely heavily on past continuity. Let me again use the prior examples of the JLA/JSA crossover.

In #5 (my god, I am a dork), Clark made multiple references to his time with The Legion, their past interactions, ect. While I was reading this, I felt lost, as The Legion reboot from '04 was completely different, and now a story is predicated on a continuity of the same characters that was supposedly wiped clean, in essence negating the current Legion stories and further causing confusion for an established reader. Now imagine a new reader trying to delve into the JSA or JLA and attempting to make heads and tails of this. It hinders the readers ability to immerse themselves in the story.

However, in the latest Batman arc by Morrison, the story did not require much knowledge of Bruce's past to understand the story, as Morrison did not do much character-heavy writing (not that it wasn't true to Batman or a good comic, for which I believe it was).

Conversely, there will always come a time where a character will need to be focused upon in a series, and that character and his/her personality will be defined by past events, but DC and the Multiverse make that hard. New readers like to know the fundamentals about certain characters before diving into their world, and when some of those fundamentals are ambiguous, it can turn many of those potential readers off.

I have the power to wade through this continuity ambiguity, but many might not.

Jef UK
05-08-2007, 12:43 PM
So you're honestly comparing Dini's continuity to DCU? If the DCU was more like Dini's continuity I would love it.

No, I'm pointing out that if your knowledge of esoteric continuity is hindering your reading, why are you bothering to hamper yourself with it? You allow Marvel to forget its continuity, but won't allow yourself enjoy, say, a Supergirl comic because she was a pink metamorph in a 15-year-old story.




Well here's the thing: Sabretooth has real claws now and has had them consistantly for over 25 years, and there's no apperances that he will stop having them just as suddenly..

But he didn't once! It's so confusing!


As for slang changing that's just asinine.

But Luke Cage existed as a young man in the 70's and exists as a young man in the new millineum? It's so confusing! I heard Tony Stark was captured by the Vietcong in the '60's, but I recently I read his Iron Man origin as taking place in Afghanistan. The inconsitencies in continuity are fucking with my mind! Which is it? To put it in Kearn's terms, which continuity overrides? Oh, the one that they're using to tell stories in the present? Right. Thanks. I see how that's exactly the same with DC, thanks.



The supergirl thing confused me when I first read Death of Superman, as did Lex w/ hair, and her hanging with Lex. As I got older I looked into what happened and found out that all of these changes to the characters were due to a crossover that was about 10 years old at the time Death of Superman came out.

I don't see your point. Like anyone else, you picked up in the middle of serialized story and had to learn a little about the world in which the characters lived. Were you confused because you'd seen the Supergirl movie? I didn't know who Nightcrawler was until I picked up X-Men for the first time. I wouldn't blame Marvel Comics for my not knowing that, or consider it line-wide confusing that he had doppelgangers popping up in limbo, Days of Future past, or the Cross-Time Caper.


Also, it's not all CoIE. There was also Zero Hour and IC.

All about 10 years apart. I never read Zero Hour. I read DC comics then. I wasn't confused by Batman comics because of whatever happened in Zero Hour. All your pointing out is that COIE, Zero Hour, and IC are (perhaps) confusing stories, not that DC comics aren't reader friendly because a multiverse exists.



The very fact that they keep needing to reboot and change thier continuity in such sweeping masive ways shows that even the editors think their continuity is a an issue.

With current DC, I think it's more that writers like Geoff Johns, Mark Waid, and Grant Morrison enjoy telling stories about the DC continuity itself, with some editorial nudging for new product lines and event comics along the way. Either way, if you don't bother to read the stories that explicitly have to do with continuity, you don't have a problem. It's only confusing because you insist on it being so. Who cares what impact Zero Hour had on Green Lantern a decade ago? Are you really going to let that impact your reading about, say, the Sinistro Corps?

TIP
05-08-2007, 12:45 PM
No, I'm pointing out that if your knowledge of esoteric continuity is hindering your reading, why are you bothering to hamper yourself with it? You allow Marvel to forget its continuity, but won't allow yourself enjoy, say, a Supergirl comic because she was a pink metamorph in a 15-year-old story.


[B]

But he didn't once! It's so confusing!



But Luke Cage existed as a young man in the 70's and exists as a young man in the new millineum? It's so confusing! I heard Tony Stark was captured by the Vietcong in the '60's, but I recently I read his Iron Man origin as taking place in Afghanistan. The inconsitencies in continuity are fucking with my mind! Which is it? To put it in Kearn's terms, which continuity overrides? Oh, the one that they're using to tell stories in the present? Right. Thanks. I see how that's exactly the same with DC, thanks.



I don't see your point. Like anyone else, you picked up in the middle of serialized story and had to learn a little about the world in which the characters lived. Were you confused because you'd seen the Supergirl movie? I didn't know who Nightcrawler was until I picked up X-Men for the first time. I wouldn't blame Marvel Comics for my not knowing that, or consider it line-wide confusing that he had doppelgangers popping up in limbo, Days of Future past, or the Cross-Time Caper.



All about 10 years apart. I never read Zero Hour. I read DC comics then. I wasn't confused by Batman comics because of whatever happened in Zero Hour. All your pointing out is that COIE, Zero Hour, and IC are (perhaps) confusing stories, not that DC comics aren't reader friendly because a multiverse exists.



With current DC, I think it's more that writers like Geoff Johns, Mark Waid, and Grant Morrison enjoy telling stories about the DC continuity itself, with some editorial nudging for new product lines and event comics along the way. Either way, if you don't bother to read the stories that explicitly have to do with continuity, you don't have a problem. It's only confusing because you insist on it being so. Who cares what impact Zero Hour had on Green Lantern a decade ago? Are you really going to let that impact your reading about, say, the Sinistro Corps?

:heart:

Blandy vs Terrorism
05-08-2007, 12:49 PM
How does having a multiverse make you have to do homework and read someplace other that your comic to figure something out?

Children understand the concept of multiple universes. Why can't some comic readers?

That was going to pretty much be my response, but I knew someone had brought it up already.

Jef UK
05-08-2007, 01:00 PM
In #5 (my god, I am a dork), Clark made multiple references to his time with The Legion, their past interactions, ect. While I was reading this, I felt lost, as The Legion reboot from '04 was completely different, and now a story is predicated on a continuity of the same characters that was supposedly wiped clean, in essence negating the current Legion stories and further causing confusion for an established reader. Now imagine a new reader trying to delve into the JSA or JLA and attempting to make heads and tails of this. It hinders the readers ability to immerse themselves in the story.

I have absolutlely no problem reading the new Legion and reading about Superman talking about his time with the Legion and not caring that they don't jive (yet). They're different stories in different comics in different timelines. At any rate, I would think a new reader delving in to the JLA would take that book's word for it. That the new Legion comic doesn't match up with JLA continuity is as confusing as Smallville's continuity not matching up with Krypto the Superdog continuity.

Or to put it another way, just because DC writes books that directly address their continuity that doesn't make the whole line of books confusing. If Marvel were to write some minisereis that explained that Punisher MAX and Punisher's War Journal exist in the same universe or in mirror universes, it wouldn't actually make Punisher MAX or Punisher War Journal themselves any more confusing. You either accept or ignore the silly gesture, and continue to read the individual books that you enjoy. What's more, you need not buy such a miniseries if those kinds of continuity stories aren't your cup of tea.

I think it's silly to applaud Marvel lack of continuity and then get so hung up on DC's continuity. Why bother?

Jef UK
05-08-2007, 01:03 PM
http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showthread.php?t=112862

Masculine Todd
05-08-2007, 01:31 PM
I have absolutlely no problem reading the new Legion and reading about Superman talking about his time with the Legion and not caring that they don't jive (yet). They're different stories in different comics in different timelines. At any rate, I would think a new reader delving in to the JLA would take that book's word for it. That the new Legion comic doesn't match up with JLA continuity is as confusing as Smallville's continuity not matching up with Krypto the Superdog continuity.

Or to put it another way, just because DC writes books that directly address their continuity that doesn't make the whole line of books confusing. If Marvel were to write some minisereis that explained that Punisher MAX and Punisher's War Journal exist in the same universe or in mirror universes, it wouldn't actually make Punisher MAX or Punisher War Journal themselves any more confusing. You either accept or ignore the silly gesture, and continue to read the individual books that you enjoy. What's more, you need not buy such a miniseries if those kinds of continuity stories aren't your cup of tea.

I think it's silly to applaud Marvel lack of continuity and then get so hung up on DC's continuity. Why bother?

Here's the thing; the story is predicated upon, and based upon Legion continuity that, if you don't know it, will lead many, including me, to confusion. It takes you out of the story when you don't know the relationships, the scenarios, and the characters that are the centerpiece of the story. For you, it may not be a problem, but for many new readers, its extremely alienating.

The Legion is supposed to be within the same continuity only a thousand years forward. The Legion, especially with the Supergirl of this timeline being the same Supergirl in the Legion book (which we're told is the same person), is directly linked to normal continuity.

It isn't just The Legion, as I've stated, there are numerous examples, hell, the majority of the continuity is fluid and an ambiguous amalgam of two different continuities and more.

Akira
05-08-2007, 02:24 PM
http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showthread.php?t=112862

how does pointing out continuity flaws in other universes prove DCU isnt confusing?
in any case, instead of actually explaining any of DCs continuity gaffes you just wondered why i didnt get it. the very tact that DC editorial seems to take. its obvious neither DC nor their current fanbase is interested in expanding their fanbase. which is a shame because as much as I like superhero books DC seems enamored with excluding new readers in exchange for telling stories that only current fans can not just understand but also appreciate

Clayton James
05-08-2007, 03:23 PM
as long as DC does what Morrison said and doesnt crossover books from different earths (except for Earth one and Earth two in JSA) I dont see how any of it is confusing at all. No more confusing than Marvel having the Ultimate Universe, Marvel Zombies ,The Marvel Universe 1602, and Spider-man Reign on bookshelves at the same time time. The DCU didn't become more confusing when Jeff Smith started SHAZAM and the Monster Society, as an out of continuity book so why would it be more confusing if it is in continuity on Earth-5 but NEVER crosses over with the main DCU. If DC wants to do a Freedom Fighters book set on earth6 or something all it does is remove the boundaries that would be need to be imposed on a Freedom Fighters book (aka, earth cannot be ruled by Nazis). Superman isnt going to crack down the barriers of space and time and save their asses at the last minute (so says morrison) so why does it matter?

As long as Countdown isnt reall "Countdown to Crisis on Infinite Earths II" then we're cool. If they work the universes as Morrison has described, its no different than Elseworlds or the Ultimate Universe.

Michael Wagner
05-08-2007, 03:45 PM
I think the multiverse can work. All that is needed is a small banner(Like the Initiative banner at Marvel) on all books BUT the main Universe. So an Earth 2 Story could have the Earth 2 banner across the top of the cover. Maybe a small recap/explanation 1st page to start every issue off.

Dr. Omega
05-08-2007, 06:45 PM
But Booster is the only one that even knows about the new Multiverse. Why not wait to see how it develops?

Who knows? It's a developing story. Why write off a story that hasn't happened yet as "too confusing"?

You're speaking specifically about Countdown. I am talking about the DCU as a whole. It has already developed. It has been developing for over a year. It is already confusing.

Doc Magnus and the Metal men. 52 shows that their entire history is intact and others in the DCU totally remember him. In Batman/Superman, they have rebooted him and Batman has never met him. WHA?? That is in the single, new Earth DCU. "Earth-1"

They honestly needed to magically mindwipe the knowledge of the pre-crisis Multiverse from everyone's heads or something. That would fix a lot of issues. That, and they need to stop randomly rebooting origins. Superman Birthright, Creeper, Doom Patrol and Metal men are some recent examples.

Many argue that continuity isn't important, but like several have stated before, it is the foundation to build the character. If your foundation is weak, the character is weak. Batman capturing his parent's killer or not capturing him can make a HUGE world of difference to his psyche.

Superman remembering life on Krypton as a baby or him being born on Earth and not knowing Krypton till he was almost 20 is a HUGE difference. Him not having powers until his late teens or having full powers and hanging with the LSH as a young boy can make a HUGE difference.

Some is picky minutia, but others are vastly important details that NO ONE seems to know. The writers don't. The fans don't. It doesn't make it very inviting as a reader. I don't like the new Phantom Zone story in Superman because there was no history to it. Non, Ursa and all that is just suddenly forced in there as having been there the whole time. All of the comics I have been reading since 86 said their was no more Kryptonians. Then BAM!! Nevermind. reverse that. Here are a handful. It's like a slap in the face. It negates the last 20 years you have spent with the characters.

It's new Coke.

Start fresh again. That's fine! Mindwipe everyone. That's fine! But don't do this mish-mash, some remember, some don't, some is in continuity, some never existed, bits and peices here and there with no real laid out defined story crap. I hate it. KILL PRE-CRISIS ONCE AND FOR ALL. That includes pre-crisis continuity and all of the Infinite Crisis elements from those stories. Alex Luthor, Kal-L, Superboy Prime.

Right now, it is just a mess. It should be:
Kyle Rayner - guy who became Green Lantern after Hal and is now Ion.

Instead, it is now:
Kyle Rayner - who should have been the Green Lantern from Earth-8, but that never happened, but when IC happened, it really did again, and he went back there, but then it merged back again, but he remembers all of that, but he is now Ion in the just DCU Universe, even though it is really part of a Multiverse/Megaverse, but no one knows about that except Booster, oh, but really, his Ion Powers let him breach that and he has glimpsed the Wildstorm and Tangent universes.

GAH!!

note to DC: follow the KISS principle.

Dr. Ω