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View Full Version : Superman Titles Delayed... Again?!



ChrisCollins
04-14-2007, 09:46 AM
The July solicitation previews for DC are up and it looks like Action Comics and Superman are featuring fill-ins again. Wasn't the second half of Last Son supposed to be 851-853 of Action Comics and Camelot Falls part 2 652-666 of Superman? Judging by the "1 of 3" in the solicitations I would guess that would mean August's books will also be fill-ins. Are Kubert and Pacheco really that slow, or are people really clamoring for a 4-part Jimmy Olsen story? :)

I know DC is worried about their dwindling numbers, but unnecessary crossover tieins are not the way to go. That's what killed the last big Superman relaunch (the Loeb/Kelly era).

On a more positive note, Green Arrow Year One and The Programme both look pretty good. The latter title seems more suited for Milligan than his more recent super-hero stuff like X-Men. I'll probably check it out.

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/july07/solicitations.html

A.Huerta
04-14-2007, 09:48 AM
They should honestly drop the Kuberts. What kind of an exclusive was that? :lol:

Fake Pat
04-14-2007, 09:49 AM
Busiek's Superman is now officially off my pull list. The issues with Pacheco have been great, but I'm fucking sick of these fill-ins.

And it looks like there won't be a Batman issue coming out this month either.

Way to go DC.

Brandon191
04-14-2007, 09:54 AM
I love what Kubert is doing on Superman, but the wait is getting ridiculous.

Jerome Gibbons
04-14-2007, 09:57 AM
That's too bad.


Honestly, it all just reinforces my opinion that delays are better than fill-ins in the long run.

Masculine Todd
04-14-2007, 10:05 AM
That's too bad.


Honestly, it all just reinforces my opinion that delays are better than fill-ins in the long run.

Why? The only difference is, you get a choice of having a filler or not between delayed issues. For many fans, something is better than nothing. It doesn't delay the issues any further, just changes the number on the issue.

Matt O'Keefe
04-14-2007, 10:08 AM
Why? The only difference is, you get a choice of having a filler or not between delayed issues. For many fans, something is better than nothing. It doesn't delay the issues any further, just changes the number on the issue.

You could argue that it makes the creative team lazier, knowing that a book will come out no matter what and feeling less guilty and motivated to finish.

Shwicaz
04-14-2007, 10:11 AM
the solicit is hilarious:


ACTION COMICS #852
Written by Kurt Busiek
Art and cover by Brad Walker and John Livesay
3-2-1-ACTION! (part 1 of 3) Hot on the heels of SUPERMAN #665's "Jimmy Olsen Countdown Dossier" comes this true blue COUNTDOWN event! Superman has always been Superman's pal. Will he now become Superman's partner?! More secrets of Jimmy's past revealed, the Kryptonite Man on the loose, and more! This issue ties into the events of COUNTDOWN #40!


Will Superman become his own parnter?? :rofl:

gear
04-14-2007, 10:12 AM
That's too bad.


Honestly, it all just reinforces my opinion that delays are better than fill-ins in the long run.


TPB's are better than both.

Jeff

Fake Pat
04-14-2007, 10:13 AM
Why? The only difference is, you get a choice of having a filler or not between delayed issues. For many fans, something is better than nothing. It doesn't delay the issues any further, just changes the number on the issue.

I don't think you're wrong, but stuff like that is what's killing monthlies. I might get the Pacheco stuff in trades, but I won't be picking up singles anymore.

sto110
04-14-2007, 10:22 AM
i accidentally left superman 661 on my pull list, this issue was horrid

Artie Pink
04-14-2007, 10:25 AM
Jesus Christ!

Busiek should wise up and pass on these crappy last-minute fill-ins.

His name used to be a sign of quality... not so much these days.

I love his issues with Pacheco. Hate the cruddy filler.


Package customers gotta wise up and tell their stores NOT to order these fill ins. When enough people pass on them, DC will get their shit together. As long as there are OCD freaks who need to have #851 instead of a GOOD STORY by a GOOD team, DC will keep putting issues out for all the wrong reasons.

Masculine Todd
04-14-2007, 10:26 AM
I don't think you're wrong, but stuff like that is what's killing monthlies. I might get the Pacheco stuff in trades, but I won't be picking up singles anymore.

Oh, I'm with you there. Long delays absolutely destroy momentum for these high-profile runs. Honestly, I believe it comes down to timing. From now on, if I were an editor for Marvel or DC, I'd stockpile issues of a major run or mini to ensure prompt shipping.

Jerome Gibbons
04-14-2007, 10:27 AM
Why? The only difference is, you get a choice of having a filler or not between delayed issues. For many fans, something is better than nothing. It doesn't delay the issues any further, just changes the number on the issue.

I think fill-ins have a tendency to interrupt the flow of a storyline as it goes along. I'll give an example. Grant Morrison's New X-Men was plagued by fill-ins, and in the end what you wound up with was a very irregular product, with art provided by artists with styles that were very different from one another (and, uh...in most cases, art that was rushed out to meet deadlines and looked rather...ugly).

Or...I dunno. Another example. Whedon/Cassaday on Astonishing X-Men. That's a very nice, uninterrupted run, that features themes and ideas that build up on each other as each issues goes along and that eventually lead to a single, unified conclusion. I really don't think having a fill-in during the delays would have benefited their run at all. You could argue that, hey, if you don't want to read fill-ins, just don't buy them. In which case I would be in pretty much the same place I would be if there were delays instead of fill-ins (except of course the issues would have different numbers on the covers), which is why it is my personal opinion that delays are better, basically. By doing that I'm pretty much already stating that I prefer delays over fill-ins.

I suppose the fact that I read comics based more on specific creators than on characters affects my opinion, which is why I don't really mind delays that much because I'll eventually get the product I'm looking for, and the dudes who buy comics solely for the characters will get the product they're looking for when they buy a fill-in. But it's just not really something I care for. And I've had an instance or two where I've felt a bit annoyed by the fact that I marched into the magazine store to buy the comic I'm looking for, only to find that it wasn't written (or drawn) by the guy who was doing the storyline I was enjoying and that got interrupted midstream in order to have the book out on the stands.

Masculine Todd
04-14-2007, 10:30 AM
Package customers gotta wise up and tell their stores NOT to order these fill ins. When enough people pass on them, DC will get their shit together. As long as there are OCD freaks who need to have #851 instead of a GOOD STORY by a GOOD team, DC will keep putting issues out for all the wrong reasons.

I'm not sure I follow your logic.

Why not offer an alternative for those who actually want a story with Superman in it between delays? How would not buying the fill-ins actually help get the delayed stories out on time. I'm not trying to be a dick here, but I doubt the editors are withholding them from us. It's most likely an issue of the creators not being able to hit the deadline, so regardless if there is a fill-in on the stands or not, we won't get the finished product until it is done.

HoldFastNow
04-14-2007, 10:33 AM
the problem i have with fill ins is that if it's a fill in i don't want and i don't hear about it ahead of time i end up getting stuck with something i don't want in my box when i go to pick up the weeks comics. why not make the fill in issues refundable so people who want them can keep them and people who are buying for a specific creator don't get stuck with a product they don't want?

lonesomefool
04-14-2007, 10:35 AM
Yeah, Adam Kubert really needs a kick in the ass or something. If the guy is going through personal problems or is sick, then I can understand, but otherwise this is pathetic.

As for the fill-ins, I just skip them, unless I have already ordered an issue through DCBS, and they resolicit it at the last minute, which has happened before.

It's a tough move for DC though, I mean I look at Detective Comics as an example of this, Paul Dini has asked for a 3 on, 1 off, schedule with that book so he can do Countdown and Madam Mirage. So DC has to decide, do we not solicit an issue? Do we do a fill-in?

What's really weird, is DC seems to have different ideas within their editorial group on this as well, the Superman and Batman books have all had fill-ins, but JSA was not solicited, and wont be published in June so a fill-in would not be needed.

Masculine Todd
04-14-2007, 10:35 AM
I think fill-ins have a tendency to interrupt the flow of a storyline as it goes along. I'll give an example. Grant Morrison's New X-Men was plagued by fill-ins, and in the end what you wound up with was a very irregular product, with art provided by artists with styles that were very different from one another (and, uh...in most cases, art that was rushed out to meet deadlines and looked rather...ugly).

Or...I dunno. Another example. Whedon/Cassaday on Astonishing X-Men. That's a very nice, uninterrupted run, that features themes and ideas that build up on each other as each issues goes along and that eventually lead to a single, unified conclusion. I really don't think having a fill-in during the delays would have benefited their run at all. You could argue that, hey, if you don't want to read fill-ins, just don't buy them. In which case I would be in pretty much the same place I would be if there were delays instead of fill-ins (except of course the issues would have different numbers on the covers), which is why it is my personal opinion that delays are better, basically. By doing that I'm pretty much already stating that I prefer delays over fill-ins.

I suppose the fact that I read comics based more on specific creators than on characters affects my opinion, which is why I don't really mind delays that much because I'll eventually get the product I'm looking for, and the dudes who buy comics solely for the characters will get the product they're looking for when they buy a fill-in. But it's just not really something I care for. And I've had an instance or two where I've felt a bit annoyed by the fact that I marched into the magazine store to buy the comic I'm looking for, only to find that it wasn't written (or drawn) by the guy who was doing the storyline I was enjoying and that got interrupted midstream in order to have the book out on the stands.

Well, now imagine you've been reading Amazing Spider-Man and Spectacular Spider-Man. When Amazing has been delayed with no fill-in, you still read Spectacular. Would that break the flow (granted they are two different books, but it's still another story featuring Spidey that your reading while having gaps between another). Whether another book replaces it or not, you will still have that break and disruption between issues. That's almost like saying "I can't read Superman in months Action is delayed because it disrupts the flow of the delayed story featuring Sups in the other book.

But that's just me and to you, this must be a major thing. I'm not negating your logic, I guess I don't share it. However, on Morrison's X-Men run, there was only fill-ins on art, not a whole story fill-in, so the narrative went unbroken.

Shwicaz
04-14-2007, 10:37 AM
They should honestly drop the Kuberts. What kind of an exclusive was that? :lol:

yeah, DC has started a trend of delays and fill ins withing their 'major announcement books'.

Lets examine.

DC says "LOOK WE HAVE FRANK MILLER AND JIM LEE ON ALL STAR BATMAN AND ROBIN!"

look how that has turned out for them over the past year. wasn't it one issue published last year, or something?

DC says "LOOK WE HAVE ALAN HEINBERG AND THE DODSONS ON WONDER WOMAN!"

look how that has turned out for them over the past year. a book that switched to 'bi-monthly' status after the first issue. An incomplese story arc that will be finished sometime later in the year as a 'special', and a fill writer for issue 5, and fill in art for issues 5-7

DC says "LOOK WE HAVE GEOFF JOHNS AND RICHARD DONNER! AND THE KUBERT BROTHERS DOING SUPERMAN!"

look how that has turned out for them over the past year. Interrupted arcs, fill in stories, solicits that seem to change almost immediately after they are announced.

DC says "LOOK WE HAVE MORRISON AND QUIETLY ON ALL STAR SUPERMAN!"

look how that has turned out for them over the past year. we got issue 2 in January. Issue 3 in March, issue 4 in May, issue 5 in August, issue 6 in January, and issue 7 just shipped this april. Issue 8 isn't due to drop until June.



These are high profile books featuring DC's TRINITY of most well known characters. If you can't even have your 'money makers' come out on time, and as advertised, then I can't imagine what is going on with the rest of their 'lesser tier' characters.

lonesomefool
04-14-2007, 10:44 AM
To be fair, All-Star Superman and All-Star Batman really dont NEED to come out on time, I mean it's not like their stories are important to other books.

But, yeah, DC's main books are an absolute mess, it's amazing how quickly it all fell apart to, I mean I think Action Comics had delays after 2 issues, Batman had a fill-in arc after 4, and Wonder Woman had a delay (I think) before the first issue even came out. It wouldnt be so bad if it happened a year or so later, by then you would kinda be prepared for it, but for it to happen so quickly, shows to me how poorly Didio and the editors have stuff planned at DC.

Yannick_B
04-14-2007, 10:45 AM
These are high profile books featuring DC's TRINITY of most well known characters. If you can't even have your 'money makers' come out on time, and as advertised, then I can't imagine what is going on with the rest of their 'lesser tier' characters.

What is the relevance trinity/lesser tier characters? Its obvious the problem here is the specific talents put on those books cannot deliver the goods on time due to a myriad of reasons.

But like Quesada once said, no one'll remember or care once they come out in TPB.

ChrisCollins
04-14-2007, 10:46 AM
TPB's are better than both.

Jeff

Definately. Though who knows how they'll eventually collect these books. At this point there is more fillin material for Action and Superman than there is non-fillin material. With Detective Comics they collected Dini's issues with the fillins, hope that doesn't happen with these books. Maybe they'll do a Superman: The Filler Vol. 1 HC. :lol:

Masculine Todd
04-14-2007, 10:46 AM
yeah, DC has started a trend of delays and fill ins withing their 'major announcement books'.

Lets examine.

DC says "LOOK WE HAVE FRANK MILLER AND JIM LEE ON ALL STAR BATMAN AND ROBIN!"

look how that has turned out for them over the past year. wasn't it one issue published last year, or something?

DC says "LOOK WE HAVE ALAN HEINBERG AND THE DODSONS ON WONDER WOMAN!"

look how that has turned out for them over the past year. a book that switched to 'bi-monthly' status after the first issue. An incomplese story arc that will be finished sometime later in the year as a 'special', and a fill writer for issue 5, and fill in art for issues 5-7

DC says "LOOK WE HAVE GEOFF JOHNS AND RICHARD DONNER! AND THE KUBERT BROTHERS DOING SUPERMAN!"

look how that has turned out for them over the past year. Interrupted arcs, fill in stories, solicits that seem to change almost immediately after they are announced.

DC says "LOOK WE HAVE MORRISON AND QUIETLY ON ALL STAR SUPERMAN!"

look how that has turned out for them over the past year. we got issue 2 in January. Issue 3 in March, issue 4 in May, issue 5 in August, issue 6 in January, and issue 7 just shipped this april. Issue 8 isn't due to drop until June.



These are high profile books featuring DC's TRINITY of most well known characters. If you can't even have your 'money makers' come out on time, and as advertised, then I can't imagine what is going on with the rest of their 'lesser tier' characters.

Lets not forget a few other scheduling/creative failures:

1) Flash TV writers DeMeo and Bilson with Lashly on The Flash: The Fastest Man Alive

2) the lack of scheduling consistency with Morrison/Kubert on Batman

3) WildC.A.T.S/The Authority

4) Rucka/Benes on Supergirl (lasted an issue)

5) Busiek/Pacheco on Superman lasting six issues

6) Busiek/Guice's run on Aquaman shipping late and ending less than a year later, which failed to get people interested in the character.

7) Verheiden/Van Sciver on Superman/Batman lasting three issues and shipping sporadically.

8) Johns/Daniels OYL Teen Titans shipping sporadically and with multiple fill-ins.

---There have been many big runs that have fallen on hard times---

Shwicaz
04-14-2007, 10:47 AM
To be fair, All-Star Superman and All-Star Batman really dont NEED to come out on time, I mean it's not like their stories are important to other books.

But, yeah, DC's main books are an absolute mess, it's amazing how quickly it all fell apart to, I mean I think Action Comics had delays after 2 issues, Batman had a fill-in arc after 4, and Wonder Woman had a delay (I think) before the first issue even came out. It wouldnt be so bad if it happened a year or so later, by then you would kinda be prepared for it, but for it to happen so quickly, shows to me how poorly Didio and the editors have stuff planned at DC.

I understand that 'all star' books don't interrupt any 'main' continuity books.

I was just using them to show the trend in books from DC that got high profile annoucements at all the cons and the comic news sites.....

...and how DC has failed to maintain any control over the creators and or their scheduling.

Announcing you have the next big thing in comics is fine.

But, if you can't deliver what you are promising, on time, and as advertised, then why make the announcement?

Shwicaz
04-14-2007, 10:50 AM
Lets not forget a few other scheduling/creative failures:

1) Flash TV writers DeMeo and Bilson with Lashly on The Flash: The Fastest Man Alive

2) the lack of scheduling consistency with Morrison/Kubert on Batman

3) WildC.A.T.S/The Authority

4) Rucka/Benes on Supergirl (lasted an issue)

5) Busiek/Pacheco on Superman lasting six issues

6) Busiek/Guice's run on Aquaman shipping late and ending less than a year later, which failed to get people interested in the character.

7) Verheiden/Van Sciver on Superman/Batman lasting three issues and shipping sporadically.

8) Johns/Daniels OYL Teen Titans shipping sporadically and with multiple fill-ins.

---There have been many big runs that have fallen on hard times---


thanks for that post. I knew there were other, but since I really don't read the majority of DC comics very ofter, I didn't want to mention anything.

I tried many books w/ OYL. I was even reading Aquaman for the first time. The lack of anything happening, and the delays between issues forced me to drop it.

lonesomefool
04-14-2007, 10:54 AM
I really fail to see how it would hurt DC, to just "sit" on some of these projects. I mean seriously, why couldnt they wait and get 6 or so issues in the can with All-Star Superman, like what they are trying to do with All-Star Wonder Woman by Adam Hughes?

And did nobody think to tell Jim Lee to rethink drawing TWO books? I know he's the boss and a cash cow, but why did no one at Wildstorm, just ask Jim to rethink drawing WildCATS, and maybe just doing the cover for it?

And why didnt they just cancel WildCATS or Authority before they shipped, before #1 shipped, especially since they KNEW that the second issues on both were running late from Lee and Morrison?

I mean, Marvel is FAR from a saint at this, but DC's schedule looks more like the old Image's.

lonesomefool
04-14-2007, 10:57 AM
Oh, and Hawkgirl should be included on your list. Before OYL, the book, under the Hawkman title, was selling well above cancellation level, it was never a great seller, but moved 30,000 copies pretty consistently, and had good critical response during Johns and Morales and the Palmiotti, Gray and Bennett runs. After OYL, Walt Simonson and Howard Chaykin both bombed on the book, and it hasnt gotten better since Chaykin left either, as the book continues to sink like a rock sales wise.

Masculine Todd
04-14-2007, 11:03 AM
I really fail to see how it would hurt DC, to just "sit" on some of these projects. I mean seriously, why couldnt they wait and get 6 or so issues in the can with All-Star Superman, like what they are trying to do with All-Star Wonder Woman by Adam Hughes?



This is honestly the best thing editors at Marvel and DC can do. When you have a project with high-profile creators, just hold off on soliciting it until you have enough issues in the can to ensure consistent scheduling.

I think Marvel is starting to do this. Loeb/Campbell's Spidey project, JMS/Quesada's One More Day, Ultimates III and IV, JMS/Coipel's Thor have all been stockpiling before one issue has been solicited (though Thor was originally slated for June and has now been pushed back to the vague "summer '07").

And DC's decision to hold off on All-Star Wonder Woman is a wise move.

ChrisCollins
04-14-2007, 11:10 AM
Marvel August Solicitation Previews are up

http://www.newsarama.com/NewJoeFridays/NewJoeFridays43_extra.html

SHE-HULK #21
Written by DAN SLOTT
Penciled by RICK BURCHETT
Cover by GREG HORN
THE MOST IMPORTANT MARVEL COMIC YOU WILL READ ALL YEAR!
"ANOTHER ME, ANOTHER U"
Ever notice how in some Marvel comics, characters who are SUPPOSED to be dead show up with NO explanation whatsoever? Or in the wrong costume? Or acting in a way they NEVER have before? Well guess what, True Believer, there was a reason. And that reason is going to have She-Hulk and her friends working on some of their STRANGEST cases yet! Don't miss it-- 'cause this is the issue that fixes 90% of Marvel's continuity problems-- from NOW ON!

:rofl: this should be fun.

bartleby
04-14-2007, 11:12 AM
Marvel August Solicitation Previews are up

http://www.newsarama.com/NewJoeFridays/NewJoeFridays43_extra.html

SHE-HULK #21
Written by DAN SLOTT
Penciled by RICK BURCHETT
Cover by GREG HORN
THE MOST IMPORTANT MARVEL COMIC YOU WILL READ ALL YEAR!
"ANOTHER ME, ANOTHER U"
Ever notice how in some Marvel comics, characters who are SUPPOSED to be dead show up with NO explanation whatsoever? Or in the wrong costume? Or acting in a way they NEVER have before? Well guess what, True Believer, there was a reason. And that reason is going to have She-Hulk and her friends working on some of their STRANGEST cases yet! Don't miss it-- 'cause this is the issue that fixes 90% of Marvel's continuity problems-- from NOW ON!

:rofl: this should be fun.

This seems to have very little to do with the Superman titles being delayed.

ClintP
04-14-2007, 11:15 AM
This seems to have very little to do with the Superman titles being delayed.

:lol: That is what I just thought as I read this thread trying to figure out what was going on...

ChrisCollins
04-14-2007, 11:16 AM
This seems to have very little to do with the Superman titles being delayed.

My thread, my rules :)

THWIP!
04-14-2007, 11:16 AM
And it looks like there won't be a Batman issue coming out this month either.

Way to go DC.
It's not the full solits but you maybe right. You think that sending the Kuberts to DC was a ploy by Marvel to fuck with them?

Fake Pat
04-14-2007, 11:18 AM
It's not the full solits but you maybe right. You think that sending the Kuberts to DC was a ploy by Marvel to fuck with them?

I am right. The newest shipping changes are up @ millarworld. Batman will not be out til May.

At least it's giving JH Williams more lead time beofre his arc. That one should be awesome.

Donal DeLay
04-14-2007, 11:22 AM
Pacheco and the Kuberts aren't actually slow. They can all get a page a day finished AT LEAST. They've held schedules before, I don't see why now is different.


That's too bad.


Honestly, it all just reinforces my opinion that delays are better than fill-ins in the long run.
And it just re-inforces my opinion that monthlies are dying, and companies should go to GN format.

I'd rather wait 6 months for a complete 5 chapter story and pay 15.00 for it.

Fake Pat
04-14-2007, 11:25 AM
Pacheco and the Kuberts aren't actually slow. They can all get a page a day finished AT LEAST. They've held schedules before, I don't see why now is different.


Look, they may been fast at some point, but they clearly aren't anymore.

I know that the Batman and Superman delays are NOT related to Morrison or Busiek. Busiek clearly has his scripts done (enough to even do extra scripting on other series), and Morrison has already given at least one script to Williams.

Artie Pink
04-14-2007, 11:29 AM
I'm not sure I follow your logic.

Why not offer an alternative for those who actually want a story with Superman in it between delays? How would not buying the fill-ins actually help get the delayed stories out on time. I'm not trying to be a dick here, but I doubt the editors are withholding them from us. It's most likely an issue of the creators not being able to hit the deadline, so regardless if there is a fill-in on the stands or not, we won't get the finished product until it is done.


Sometimes, NO issue of Superman is better than a CRAPPY issue of Superman.

Busiek taking over Superman sounded really good last year. Now I look around, and there are very few issues of Busiek's BEST work. There's a lot of crud, and more in the pipeline, with Busiek's name on it. The Pacheco issues stand out in their goodness.

And anytime you look back at a run, and see all this slop and realize you paid for 10 issues but only got 4 good ones, it engenders ill will.

It's like pulling in new readers for Civil War, and getting them to buy tons of fill ins that don't matter and are by lame teams. You're not gonna keep those readers. Less is more, if the less is GOOD. If you have MORE crap than good, it's gonna work out bad.

Shwicaz
04-14-2007, 11:30 AM
Kurt Busiek, over at Newsarama had this to say about Superman delays/fill ins:


The fill-ins aren't causing delays. The delays are causing fill-ins.



You're getting issues of Superman and Action Comics. On a more-than-monthly schedule these days.



Dan's ultimately to blame for everything DCU, unless you go another step up the ladder and blame Paul.

But Dan's not making the books get done slowly, so no, if that's what you're asking, he's not "to blame" for that. He's not sneaking out to New Jersey and breaking all Adam Kubert's pencils, or blanketing the south of Spain with disaster rays. The books have had serious unforeseen schedule difficulties, and they were in the middle of lengthy storylines. So the solution is to dig out of the schedule problem with good stories that you'll enjoy, and do our best to be on guard against the kind of schedule problems that have caused so many headaches this past year.

What I do wish is the DC would figure out that it's better to explain this stuff ahead of time, rather than wait until people get confused by the solicitations and then put out a press release a couple of weeks later, which seems like the usual pattern.

I think, as we get through all this, readers are gooing to be happy that the books will come out as scheduled and solicited, and they'll like the stories. But then, I know what the big overall plan is, so I know where the light at the end of the tunnel is.

I'm just not a DC spokesperson, so it's not down to me to announce it all.

kdb

read the entire thread here:

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=108784

ChrisCollins
04-14-2007, 11:31 AM
Just checked the talback thread at Newsarama (don't know whether that was incredibly brave, or incredibly stupid) and Busiek posted a few times and explained that the fillin in the middle of Camelot Falls part 2 was planned so that they could have something important happen in issue 666. No word on the reason for the delay in Action Comics though.

Shwicaz
04-14-2007, 11:33 AM
Pacheco and the Kuberts aren't actually slow. They can all get a page a day finished AT LEAST. They've held schedules before, I don't see why now is different.



Geoff Johns blames the Kuberts for the delay:


Action Comics 2007

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey, all -

I want to thank all of you who are reading Action Comics and apologize for the delays in the current LAST SON storyline.

Unfortunately, Adam Kubert is obviously taking much longer than anyone hoped. His work is beautiful, but it's taking a long time - for the record, it's not me and Donner. It's become a common assumption that "Hollywood" writers are slow. Donner is not.

On that front, of course DC wants Action Comics out every month. And it should be, if not more (which it will be later in 2007).

I apologize to everyone on the wait and delays, but I hope you've been enjoying the storyline and the Annual.

Fortunately, Action 850 turned into, what I think, is a great anniversary issue. We're already working ahead of Adam with the next artist that's going to take over Action Comics so we're way ahead of the game.

We hate having this story interrupted too, trust me, but at least they're going to be good. And it won't happen again.

Thanks again,

Geoff

Artie Pink
04-14-2007, 11:34 AM
Kurt Busiek, over at Newsarama had this to say about Superman delays/fill ins:



The fill-ins aren't causing delays. The delays are causing fill-ins.



read the entire thread here:

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=108784

Who the FUCK does Busiek think figures the fill-ins cause the delays?!

No one thinks "DC has a kick ass Jimmy Olsen story to tell, so they're delaying Donner's Bizarro story!"

We all think "DC paid Kubert a lot of money to draw this arc that will sell great in a trade but he's dragging his ass, so they got Busiek to crank out a fill-in with some other artist to sell in the meantime."

Shwicaz
04-14-2007, 11:37 AM
Who the FUCK does Busiek think figures the fill-ins cause the delays?!




He was responding to another poster who had just asked:


Kurt, why is DC or Dan doing this to us? Is Dan an idiot? Because the fill-ins, the delays on these great books are the main reason people are dropping them.

the poster said that the fill ins were causing delays.

Kurt merely pointed out, it is the delays that are the cause of the fill in stories, which makes sense, whether we like it or not.

Donal DeLay
04-14-2007, 11:38 AM
I wasn't trying to say the Kuberts or Pacheco aren't responsible for the delays.

I was saying they aren't usually slow, so I don't see why now is different.

I'd be keenly interested in knowing why the productivity of all three has greatly slowed down.

And as I've said before, if it's a problem with workload (i.e. the Kuberts having to teach, etc) then cut. the. fat.

Shwicaz
04-14-2007, 11:41 AM
I wasn't trying to say the Kuberts or Pacheco aren't responsible for the delays.

I was saying they aren't usually slow, so I don't see why now is different.

I'd be keenly interested in knowing why the productivity of all three has greatly slowed down.

And as I've said before, if it's a problem with workload (i.e. the Kuberts having to teach, etc) then cut. the. fat.


no worries, dude. I posted that note from Johns, because people usually go back and forth on who is to 'blame' for a late book, writer/artist/editor/ etc.

Here we had a difinitive answer from the writer, himself, that I figured might clear up any future misconceptions on why the book is delayed. :cool:

lonesomefool
04-14-2007, 11:43 AM
You realize that you wouldnt get 6 issues worth of issues for $20 if they switched to trades only, the trades are cheaper because they are reprints, not all-new material.

lonesomefool
04-14-2007, 11:49 AM
And I fail to see what "light at the end of the tunnel" Kurt is talking about, the light at the end of the tunnel is breaking up storylines mid arc? The light at the end of the tunnel is rushing stories out just so comic shops will have a copy of Action Comics and Superman on the stands every month? I must be missing it, unless they are stock piling Pacheco stories, and Powell's arc is already in the can.

NickT
04-14-2007, 11:57 AM
Why? The only difference is, you get a choice of having a filler or not between delayed issues. For many fans, something is better than nothing. It doesn't delay the issues any further, just changes the number on the issue.
If I ask my retailer to pull a comic for me, that is to me an agreement that if he gets it, I will buy it. When you throw in fill-ins (And by this I'm talking more writer than artist), I'm down for buying something I don't want.


What makes them worse though IMO is when they keep happening. I'd rather Dini took 6 months off and then did a year or two straight than 18 months of occasional one issue fillins.

Artie Pink
04-14-2007, 12:03 PM
If I ask my retailer to pull a comic for me, that is to me an agreement that if he gets it, I will buy it. When you throw in fill-ins (And by this I'm talking more writer than artist), I'm down for buying something I don't want.


What makes them worse though IMO is when they keep happening. I'd rather Dini took 6 months off and then did a year or two straight than 18 months of occasional one issue fillins.


Exactly. I was soooooo PISSED that I was on the hook for those Ostrander/Mandrake Batman issues in the middle of Morrison's run.

It's a drag to go through Previews and ALL the endless updates and last minute re-solicitations to make sure that doesn't happen again.



Busiek is a creator I like. But c'mon. These last second stopgap jobs are NOT his best work. The last couple Superman issues were beyond bad. He should be ashamed.

Donal DeLay
04-14-2007, 12:04 PM
You realize that you wouldnt get 6 issues worth of issues for $20 if they switched to trades only, the trades are cheaper because they are reprints, not all-new material.

I don't see why being a reprint matters. You're still paying 2.99 per chapter for a 15.00, 5 chapter book, without delays and fill-ins interupting the schedule.

lonesomefool
04-14-2007, 12:09 PM
Ads help cut down on the cost of the book as well.

Pride of Baghdad cost $20 and wasnt anywhere clost to have 5-6 issues worth of material (and that's not a jab at the book, it was awesome).

Ray G.
04-14-2007, 12:41 PM
The thing is, Kurt Buseik has not disappointed me since he became one of DC's powerhouse writers with OYL. Just about everyone one of his solo-written Superman issues has been great, even the single-issue fill-ins like Prankster. I'm getting a three-issue Jimmy Olsen story by Buseik instead of the Johns/Donner run which I've found mediocre at best? Big deal. I'll enjoy the story. Sure, it sucks that DC can't get their books out on time, but at least their fill-ins are of pretty good quality. Now, the Fabien Nicieza inventory story they've got coming up in Action? That's a different story. That shouldn't happen. Start Superman: Classified if you've got so many burnoff stories.

David Aspmo
04-14-2007, 12:43 PM
I wasn't trying to say the Kuberts or Pacheco aren't responsible for the delays.

I was saying they aren't usually slow, so I don't see why now is different.

I'd be keenly interested in knowing why the productivity of all three has greatly slowed down.

And as I've said before, if it's a problem with workload (i.e. the Kuberts having to teach, etc) then cut. the. fat.
Actually, they are slow.

Well, maybe not Andy so much (although it's been a few years since he's been assigned to a monthly schedule). Adam hasn't been able to do more than six to eight issues in a year for at least the last decade and a half. And Pacheco hasn't done more than six issues in a year since Avengers Forever back in 1999.

Still, the Kuberts are going even slower than they were when they were at Marvel. It could be the teaching at the school, I guess. Adam is also inking himself and doing far more detailed background work than he has in the past. Even so, he's working at a glacially slow pace - almost half of what he used to.

There was an article in a Wizard from February or March of last year that indicated that Adam had already started on his Action run (it said he was working on page 5). So, they did give him lead time. I can't blame DC for thinking he'd have six issues done by now (that's been his established pace). Although, it seems like they should have noticed that he was already worryingly late by the time they had announced the launch date for the new creative team.

.
David Aspmo

MattN
04-14-2007, 12:51 PM
Pride of Baghdad cost $20 and wasnt anywhere clost to have 5-6 issues worth of material (and that's not a jab at the book, it was awesome).

Pride of Baghdad was also hardcover and marketed as something of a special, premier quality story rather than, say, 4 issues of Spider-man.

But still, I'm not sure how Marvel or DC shifting their focus to printing complete stories rather than monthly installments would go over. I don't think it would be as easy to get people to fork over fifteen or twenty bucks at once for a complete story as it would be to convince them to pay three dollars for an installment, even knowing that by the time the story is over they'll have paid the full price.

I would like to see it tried with a miniseries though. The Spider-man and the Fantastic Four series that just started, for example. It's a completely stand alone story with no ongoing story arcs to worry about, so it might be easier to sell as a complete story rather than individual volumes of a monthly. Maybe offer the equivalent to the first issue online as a free preview to give people an idea of the quality of the story as they normally would for three dollars.

NickT
04-14-2007, 12:56 PM
I don't see why being a reprint matters. You're still paying 2.99 per chapter for a 15.00, 5 chapter book, without delays and fill-ins interupting the schedule.
You don't see why being a reprint matters? What are you paying the creators with?

BenC (formerly Ape-X)
04-14-2007, 01:54 PM
Lets not forget a few other scheduling/creative failures:

1) Flash TV writers DeMeo and Bilson with Lashly on The Flash: The Fastest Man Alive

2) the lack of scheduling consistency with Morrison/Kubert on Batman

3) WildC.A.T.S/The Authority

4) Rucka/Benes on Supergirl (lasted an issue)

5) Busiek/Pacheco on Superman lasting six issues

6) Busiek/Guice's run on Aquaman shipping late and ending less than a year later, which failed to get people interested in the character.

7) Verheiden/Van Sciver on Superman/Batman lasting three issues and shipping sporadically.

8) Johns/Daniels OYL Teen Titans shipping sporadically and with multiple fill-ins.

---There have been many big runs that have fallen on hard times---

YEESHH! When you put it like that it's obvious the past year has been most unkind to DC. Still, there have been bright spots...

Masculine Todd
04-15-2007, 12:40 AM
Sometimes, NO issue of Superman is better than a CRAPPY issue of Superman.

Busiek taking over Superman sounded really good last year. Now I look around, and there are very few issues of Busiek's BEST work. There's a lot of crud, and more in the pipeline, with Busiek's name on it. The Pacheco issues stand out in their goodness.

And anytime you look back at a run, and see all this slop and realize you paid for 10 issues but only got 4 good ones, it engenders ill will.

It's like pulling in new readers for Civil War, and getting them to buy tons of fill ins that don't matter and are by lame teams. You're not gonna keep those readers. Less is more, if the less is GOOD. If you have MORE crap than good, it's gonna work out bad.

The Civil War thing doesn't apply to this argument. The Superman fill-ins aren't being continually bought buy new readers there for the Pacheco issues. They're mostly purchased by fans who want something Superman related that month.

Furthermore, your tastes are subjective and relative. What you call "crappy," others have enjoyed. The Krypto issue with Rick Leonardi on art from a few months back for example was a fun issue.

Also, it doesn't make sense financially for DC to stop producing an issue of an ongoing title with a built-in audience for that month due to a delay. They will ultimately make more money if they put out more product than they would waiting for the delay. If there's no product in, say, April, that's an issue they're losing money on. And the argument "well, the fill-ins cause fans to drop the book, causing less sales" is crap. It's the delays that cause a lack of momentum and a drop off from sales. Fill-ins just fill the void between issues, and the drop off would occur regardless. It's just an alternative for fans that want something as opposed to nothing.

Marcdachamp
04-15-2007, 12:49 AM
The thing is, this isn't helping DC score new readers. Stuff like this only makes it harder to lure in new fans.

Masculine Todd
04-15-2007, 12:52 AM
If I ask my retailer to pull a comic for me, that is to me an agreement that if he gets it, I will buy it. When you throw in fill-ins (And by this I'm talking more writer than artist), I'm down for buying something I don't want.


What makes them worse though IMO is when they keep happening. I'd rather Dini took 6 months off and then did a year or two straight than 18 months of occasional one issue fillins.

This doesn't mean they should stop doing fill-ins. This means that either DC needs to implement a better return policy for the stores and your retailer needs to become more sympathetic to fill-ins. Its pretty shitty of your retailer to hold you contractually obligated to buy books you place on your pull if you want to continue shopping there. If there's a last minute fill-in, my old comic shop guy would always allow me to skip it. And so comic shops don't eat a drop off of sales for unforeseen fill-ins, return policies should be put in place by DC for these fill-ins.

Special Agent Bachman
04-15-2007, 01:01 AM
Marvel fans only bitch about Quesada because they don't have to worry about Didio. DC is likely to fall apart on his watch.

Masculine Todd
04-15-2007, 01:07 AM
The thing is, this isn't helping DC score new readers. Stuff like this only makes it harder to lure in new fans.

Because delays with no fill-ins helps even more? If anything, these one-shot fill-ins are more accessible to the average reader.

Marcdachamp
04-15-2007, 01:10 AM
Because delays with no fill-ins helps even more? If anything, these one-shot fill-ins are more accessible to the average reader.

Not when Part 1 of a story is issue 658 and part 2 is issue 663 (I don't actually know the numbers).

Donal DeLay
04-15-2007, 01:25 AM
Actually, they are slow.

Well, maybe not Andy so much (although it's been a few years since he's been assigned to a monthly schedule). Adam hasn't been able to do more than six to eight issues in a year for at least the last decade and a half. And Pacheco hasn't done more than six issues in a year since Avengers Forever back in 1999.

Still, the Kuberts are going even slower than they were when they were at Marvel. It could be the teaching at the school, I guess. Adam is also inking himself and doing far more detailed background work than he has in the past. Even so, he's working at a glacially slow pace - almost half of what he used to.

There was an article in a Wizard from February or March of last year that indicated that Adam had already started on his Action run (it said he was working on page 5). So, they did give him lead time. I can't blame DC for thinking he'd have six issues done by now (that's been his established pace). Although, it seems like they should have noticed that he was already worryingly late by the time they had announced the launch date for the new creative team.

.
David Aspmo
Really? I don't remember Wolverine being late when Adam was working on it, but I can't really say I was paying attention to the release dates, either.


You don't see why being a reprint matters? What are you paying the creators with? I don't see why a 15.00 GN being the same price as 5 collected singles (2.99 x 5 = 15.00) is "cheaper".

And you're paying the creator with the GN sales, which wouldn't be that much less than 5 single issues sold.

Dr. Omega
04-15-2007, 01:42 AM
I have always felt that the Kuberts are a resounding "meh" art-wise. They are not great, but there are worse.. They have always just seemed like an odd combo of Joe Kubert + Image standard Jim Lee style rip-off. I really don't think either bring anything special to the Super or Bat books.

I HATE that Johns and Donner have forced both movie continuity and pre-Crisis 50's continuity to the comics, though. It is a HUGE turnoff.

Wonder Woman dropping the last issue of the re-launch story made me want to drop the book. Gail coming on board soon, though.. hmm.. I may keep up with it..

Ion -- I love the character of Kyle, but that mini was HORRID. It was so schizophrenic and then just abruptly ends, stating it continues in the summer cross-over. Hells, no. For what they did in Ion, I will be avoiding Sinestro Corps.

Hell, IC made me come extremely close to just bailing out of comics altogether.

DC has never before, in 30 years made me feel so alienated and betrayed as a fan as with IC and the subsequent comics. Checkmate is good. 52 is good. Little else. Superman now sucks. Busiek is good, but there are so many fill-ins. Batman with Dini is good. The rest, not so much. Wonder Woman was good, but with no ending to the story, delays, and a complete team change, I have little interest. Ion was lame. Nightwing was cool, especially since he proposed to Barbara, but post IC was so bad it will go down in comics history. Flash? Used to love Wally. Couldn't make it to 6 issues with the relaunch. Dropped Hawkgirl. Dropped JLA. Dropped Flash. GA is ending, and I won't be picking up the relaunch. Titans needs to end. Shazam is a sucky change across the board.

I have never dropped so many titles in my life. The sad part is, I honestly enjoyed most all of them prior to IC. And with all the delays, it just makes it that much worse.

I have said it before and will say it again. Didio needs to be fired. The creative path he is taking the DCU, as well as his management of talent and timeliness of books is sub-par. They need to remove him from his position and put in some fresh blood who will steer the ship in the right direction.

Hell, he is so clueless, he thought people would be OK with killing Dick Grayson. As it was, he killed Conner, who at the time, was having a huge popularity surge and probably could have carried his own book again.

*sigh*

Dr. Ω

Special Agent Bachman
04-15-2007, 01:48 AM
I have always felt that the Kuberts are a resounding "meh" art-wise. They are not great, but there are worse.. They have always just seemed like an odd combo of Joe Kubert + Image standard Jim Lee style rip-off. I really don't think either bring anything special to the Super or Bat books.

I HATE that Johns and Donner have forced both movie continuity and pre-Crisis 50's continuity to the comics, though. It is a HUGE turnoff.

Wonder Woman dropping the last issue of the re-launch story made me want to drop the book. Gail coming on board soon, though.. hmm.. I may keep up with it..

Ion -- I love the character of Kyle, but that mini was HORRID. It was so schizophrenic and then just abruptly ends, stating it continues in the summer cross-over. Hells, no. For what they did in Ion, I will be avoiding Sinestro Corps.

Hell, IC made me come extremely close to just bailing out of comics altogether.

DC has never before, in 30 years made me feel so alienated and betrayed as a fan as with IC and the subsequent comics. Checkmate is good. 52 is good. Little else. Superman now sucks. Busiek is good, but there are so many fill-ins. Batman with Dini is good. The rest, not so much. Wonder Woman was good, but with no ending to the story, delays, and a complete team change, I have little interest. Ion was lame. Nightwing was cool, especially since he proposed to Barbara, but post IC was so bad it will go down in comics history. Flash? Used to love Wally. Couldn't make it to 6 issues with the relaunch. Dropped Hawkgirl. Dropped JLA. Dropped Flash. GA is ending, and I won't be picking up the relaunch. Titans needs to end. Shazam is a sucky change across the board.

I have never dropped so many titles in my life. The sad part is, I honestly enjoyed most all of them prior to IC. And with all the delays, it just makes it that much worse.

I have said it before and will say it again. Didio needs to be fired. The creative path he is taking the DCU, as well as his management of talent and timeliness of books is sub-par. They need to remove him from his position and put in some fresh blood who will steer the ship in the right direction.

Hell, he is so clueless, he thought people would be OK with killing Dick Grayson. As it was, he killed Conner, who at the time, was having a huge popularity surge and probably could have carried his own book again.

*sigh*

Dr. Ω

I'd love to see a Joe Fridays type Didio Q&A column at Newsarama, wouldn't you? It'd be fucking glorious to behold and would likely eventually lead to his resignation.

JackBauer
04-15-2007, 02:00 AM
I'm glad I canceled Batman, Morrison didn't deliver what I expected and Andy Kubert's drawings did't really impress me.

Ray G.
04-15-2007, 05:09 AM
I'd love to see a Joe Fridays type Didio Q&A column at Newsarama, wouldn't you? It'd be fucking glorious to behold and would likely eventually lead to his resignation.

You know, the guy actually essentially laughed in my face at a con when I asked about a major change in a character's appearance and personality.

Shwicaz
04-15-2007, 05:10 AM
You know, the guy actually essentially laughed in my face at a con when I asked about a major change in a character's appearance and personality.


maybe that's because you didn't see 'the light at the end of the tunnel'

:lol:


but seriously, what did you ask, and what did he say?

Ray G.
04-15-2007, 05:20 AM
maybe that's because you didn't see 'the light at the end of the tunnel'

:lol:


but seriously, what did you ask, and what did he say?

There's this character, Match, who's currently appearing in Teen Titans. He's an evil clone of Superboy who was created by a rogue government agency to destroy the original in the Superboy title. He was smarter, more powerful, and in better control of his powers than Superboy. When they announced he would be back as part of Deathstroke's Titans East, I was pretty excited. They were promising he would be used to fuck with the minds of Robin and Wonder Girl, now that Superboy is dead.

But when he showed up, he was completely different than anything he had appeared as before. He was a decomposing, mentally retarded flawed clone who spoke in Bizarro-speech and spent the entire run talking about how much he "hates" Wonder Girl and how he's going to keep her locked up with him "for never and never".

I asked Didio about this at the con. Didio loudly groaned, and the guys at the panel followed suit. At this point he laughed and said "That's what happens", and moved on to the next question. I didn't even get the decency of being told whether there was an answer coming. I think Didio's not a bad guy, and he's made some good decisions, but his people skills need work.

Artie Pink
04-15-2007, 05:25 AM
DiDio reminds me of a big dumb jock who's trying to sound smart. And failing. His columns in the back of DC's books are a complete waste of time.

artimoff
04-15-2007, 05:25 AM
That's too bad.


Honestly, it all just reinforces my opinion that delays are better than fill-ins in the long run.

I havn't been buying Superman, but I bought 661. How is it a fill-in when it's writen by the same writer as the last issue?

Artie Pink
04-15-2007, 05:36 AM
I havn't been buying Superman, but I bought 661. How is it a fill-in when it's writen by the same writer as the last issue?


Busiek was in the middle of a longer story with Pacheco. Pacheco's art is not ready, so this story suddenly appears in an issue that was supposed to continue Busiek and Pacheco's story.

Busiek gave interviews about his plans for this title... and these fill-in tales were NOT a part of those plans.

There's good Busiek work... and then there's rushed, hacked out Busiek work. The last two issues I've read had Busiek's name on 'em, but were not high quality work.

Masculine Todd
04-15-2007, 05:41 AM
Not when Part 1 of a story is issue 658 and part 2 is issue 663 (I don't actually know the numbers).

But this doesn't really apply to "new readers." You said "this doesn't help get new readers." Neither do the delays. New readers aren't hindered by fill-ins, they're interest is damaged by gaps between stories. Having a fill-in does nothing but give readers a choice between no Superman story that month or a fill-in story and guarantees DC revenue from Superman that month.

Artie Pink
04-15-2007, 05:58 AM
But this doesn't really apply to "new readers." You said "this doesn't help get new readers." Neither do the delays. New readers aren't hindered by fill-ins, they're interest is damaged by gaps between stories. Having a fill-in does nothing but give readers a choice between no Superman story that month or a fill-in story and guarantees DC revenue from Superman that month.


Who are these new readers, and are they buying Action, Superman, Superman Confidential AND All-Star Superman?

Between the four books, one of them should be new-ish on the rack. Try that one, new reader.

Having crapped-out, lackluster, boring fill-ins isn't gonna KEEP a new reader coming back.

DC wants a Superman book out every week. The talent and the stories aren't there. Forcing a book out whether it's good or not is gonna do more harm than good.

Masculine Todd
04-15-2007, 06:06 AM
Who are these new readers, and are they buying Action, Superman, Superman Confidential AND All-Star Superman?

Between the four books, one of them should be new-ish on the rack. Try that one, new reader.

Having crapped-out, lackluster, boring fill-ins isn't gonna KEEP a new reader coming back.

DC wants a Superman book out every week. The talent and the stories aren't there. Forcing a book out whether it's good or not is gonna do more harm than good.

I'm not saying fill-ins bring new readers to a series. I was merely addressing Marcdachamp's claim that "fill-ins don't capture new readers." They aren't supposed to. They are nothing more than a way for DC to maintain revenue for a book they normally wouldn't do to delays and for fans who still want to read Superman that month. It's a good idea. The only thing that is crippling to fans in this whole ordeal is the lack of return policy to retailers. Oh, and for collectors, they may have a gap in numbers between the fourth chapter of a story and the fifth.

Marc was alluding to fill-ins keeping new fans away from the product. This is erroneous. The delays kill new readership. Delays enable the already established fanbase a choice between purchasing an issue of Superman that month with a different story (which aren't always bad) or going without.

This is honestly the smartest move for DC.

ClintP
04-15-2007, 06:10 AM
All I know is that the last issue of Superman blew. It was about the Prankster or some such. I liked the run from OYL to now. I gave DC a try with OYL across the board, but it seems to have gone downhill since. If I get another Prankster like issue, I am out of Superman for good.

Artie Pink
04-15-2007, 06:18 AM
Marc was alluding to fill-ins keeping new fans away from the product. This is erroneous. The delays kill new readership. Delays enable the already established fanbase a choice between purchasing an issue of Superman that month with a different story (which aren't always bad) or going without.



How is that shitty Prankster issue a good thing? What new reader is gonna come back after that one? There is another issue of Superman for that guy to read - Action, All-Star, Classified... or a back issue.

Putting out issues just because your dedicated (read: obsessed) fans have to have #851 no matter who/what the rushed story will be is NOT good business in the long run. Sooner or later, they wise up. You look back and see that you've wasted a lot of money on mostly crappy comics, and then you STOP.

Having a bad issue out is NEVER a good thing.

ClintP
04-15-2007, 06:28 AM
The early preview issues looked pretty good. I think I will "flip through" the superman titles with caution from now on though.

artimoff
04-15-2007, 06:40 AM
All I know is that the last issue of Superman blew. It was about the Prankster or some such. I liked the run from OYL to now. I gave DC a try with OYL across the board, but it seems to have gone downhill since. If I get another Prankster like issue, I am out of Superman for good.

The last issue had Wonder Woman in it, not the Prankster. I liked the WW one, Ray liked the Prankster one. Different tastes.

Masculine Todd
04-15-2007, 06:55 AM
How is that shitty Prankster issue a good thing? What new reader is gonna come back after that one? There is another issue of Superman for that guy to read - Action, All-Star, Classified... or a back issue.

Putting out issues just because your dedicated (read: obsessed) fans have to have #851 no matter who/what the rushed story will be is NOT good business in the long run. Sooner or later, they wise up. You look back and see that you've wasted a lot of money on mostly crappy comics, and then you STOP.

Having a bad issue out is NEVER a good thing.

Firstly, I enjoyed that issue. This is a prime example of taste being subjective.

Secondly, you honestly think that the new readers who jumped on board for Johns/Donner's Action are more turned off from a (hypothetically) sub-par fill-in than a delay? Really? They have the option not to buy the fill-in, but at least they have an option instead of just a gap. It is really that simple. Also, with most "new readers" being comic fans already (because, honestly, we all know that the industry isn't booming with "fresh readers"), and readers who do pull lists and participate in checking solicitations in Diamond to choose their orders and the internet's far reach, "new readers" have the most resources at their disposal to find out whether or not the next issue will be a fill-in.

Honestly, fill-ins don't kill enthusiasm, delays do. Fill-ins just pass the time and give DC a viable source of income for that series as opposed to simply delaying it.

Oh, and yes, there are various alternatives to Superman (Action, Confidential, Sups/Bats), but what if the comic fan wants a Busiek Superman story? What if the reader enjoys the stylistic ambiance Busiek implements into his scripts? They should have a choice.

I think this argument is absurd. It gives you the option of something over nothing while waiting for the final product. If you don't like that something, don't buy it. But how could you chastise the product? Keep in mind, you can't use the logic of "bad comics are never a good thing," insofar as it's bad to you, but not everyone. Taste, again, is relative.

Artie Pink
04-15-2007, 07:19 AM
Firstly, I enjoyed that issue. This is a prime example of taste being subjective.

Secondly, you honestly think that the new readers who jumped on board for Johns/Donner's Action are more turned off from a (hypothetically) sub-par fill-in than a delay? Really? They have the option not to buy the fill-in, but at least they have an option instead of just a gap. It is really that simple. Also, with most "new readers" being comic fans already (because, honestly, we all know that the industry isn't booming with "fresh readers"), and readers who do pull lists and participate in checking solicitations in Diamond to choose their orders and the internet's far reach, "new readers" have the most resources at their disposal to find out whether or not the next issue will be a fill-in.

Honestly, fill-ins don't kill enthusiasm, delays do. Fill-ins just pass the time and give DC a viable source of income for that series as opposed to simply delaying it.

Oh, and yes, there are various alternatives to Superman (Action, Confidential, Sups/Bats), but what if the comic fan wants a Busiek Superman story? What if the reader enjoys the stylistic ambiance Busiek implements into his scripts? They should have a choice.

I think this argument is absurd. It gives you the option of something over nothing while waiting for the final product. If you don't like that something, don't buy it. But how could you chastise the product? Keep in mind, you can't use the logic of "bad comics are never a good thing," insofar as it's bad to you, but not everyone. Taste, again, is relative.


I'll grant you that it IS subjective. I have not heard many kind words for either the Prankster or the WW issue, though.

This hypothetical comic fan who has come in for Donner's Action comic - you don't see that having him come back for a new, consecutively numbered issue that isn't what he's expecting is a BAD idea?

He might get home and find he wasted money. Result: Pissed off.

He might think the story just petered out and he didn't understand it. Result: Disappointed.

He might investigate comics and see how arcs used to continue into other titles. Result: Confused.

He might get on the internet, track down some information, see that the next issue is months away AT LEAST, and not scheduled. Result: Gives up, looks into buying an Xbox.


Believe it or not, there are times when less is more. Less issues of Superman that are put out for purely corporate reasons may be a good thing.

When you're putting issues out just to keep collectors of numbered issues happy, you are alienating READERS.

Readers will stay. Collectors will lose interest, collectors will feel burned, collectors will move on. Readers will read good stuff.

This theory is borne out by DCs abysmal numbers.

I think they ARE putting out good reads - the arcs by Busiek/Pacheco, Johns/Donner, Morrison and Dini are all classic. They have no momentum, though. DC needs to fix the delays and chill on the fill-ins.

I have Batman on my pull list. I'm a Morrison fan, not necessarily a Batman fan. I was busy around Christmas. When I hit the shop to get my pull box, I was pissed off to find I was on the hook for FOUR Ostrander/Mandrake issues. How many people felt the same?

There doesn't need to be a Detective Comics issue every month, no matter what. Those fill-in arcs would not sell if they were solicited as a mini series. That is DC taking advantage of collectors. It will not work for them in the long run. Stores who don't adjust the numbers for these fill ins will lose money. Customers who don't adjust their orders will feel ripped off. Casual readers will drop the book and never remember to look back into it. The only people who will be served by this are the drones, and they're no good for the industry anyway.

ClintP
04-15-2007, 07:22 AM
Did I miss something? There was a WW appearance in Superman? When did this come out? I thought the Prankster one came out like 2 weeks ago...

ClintP
04-15-2007, 07:24 AM
Sorry guys... I am just about switched over to my LCS from DCBS. My confusion stems from still being an issue behind. I had forgotten that I was still not current.. My bad.

Clayton James
04-15-2007, 07:29 AM
I don't really mind the fill ins all that much. My subscription policy is pretty lose so I'm cool for skipping issues if I need to. So far, I've skipped all the Batman and Detective fill ins, but picked up the Superman ones (since theyre by the same writer) and the McDuffie Action Comics issue. I enjoyed the first two Superman issues (the angel one and the Prankster issue) but thought the third was godawful.

Strangely enough, I held off on buying the third fill-in, but was convinced to buy it by a glowing review on SBC. The "contriversial" Krypto issue is up next though and I have no problem putting down three bucks for that at all.

I like these done in one stories. In some sense, it seems like Busiek is taking advantage of the delays to expand his vision of superman and metropolis. If the annual schedual for Superman becomes 6 issues by Pacheco, 3 issues by a regular fill-in artist, and 3 done-in one tales, I will be pleased.

Action, I can understand pissing people off since it breaks up the flow of an ongoing story. All I can say is try your best to skup those issues. The only issue I think I'm picking up the next few months is 850.

There is a brightside to all these fill-ins. Because of the erratic production of these comics, I can buy Johns and Donner's Action (which I am enjoying) and Busiek's Superman at the same time and not have to justify buying two superman titles a month. The same goes for Batman and Detective. The books seem to balence eachother out so I'm buying around one Batman title and one Superman title a month (also ASS but that doesn't count as a monthly by any means). If anything, this frees up my wallet to try new series like Welcome to Tranquility, and lets me give Gughenheim a sufficient trial on Flash.

David Aspmo
04-15-2007, 03:50 PM
Really? I don't remember Wolverine being late when Adam was working on it, but I can't really say I was paying attention to the release dates, either.
The book wasn't late, but there were a bunch of fill-ins on art.

His run was ostensibly from #75 -102 and included the four-issue Weapon X version during the "Age of Apocolypse" crossover. Of those, Kubert actually did interiors for #75, 77-82, 85, 87-88, 90, 92-93, 95-97, 100, 102 and #1 (breakdowns only), 2-4 of Weapon X.

To be completely fair, #75, 85 and 100 were giant-sized issues (38, 37 and 36 pages respectively), but that's also mitigated by his only doing half of #88, not doing five pages in #82, and the size of #96 and #97 being reduced to 19 pages (a temporary company-wide policy at the time). Still, it's a net increase of a full other 23 pages total in the run.

So, of the 32 issues of his run, 10 of them were fill-ins and one was breakdowns only.

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David Aspmo

ChrisCollins
04-15-2007, 04:06 PM
The book wasn't late, but there were a bunch of fill-ins on art.

His run was ostensibly from #75 -102 and included the four-issue Weapon X version during the "Age of Apocolypse" crossover. Of those, Kubert actually did interiors for #75, 77-82, 85, 87-88, 90, 92-93, 95-97, 100, 102 and #1 (breakdowns only), 2-4 of Weapon X.

To be completely fair, #75, 85 and 100 were giant-sized issues (38, 37 and 36 pages respectively), but that's also mitigated by his only doing half of #88, not doing five pages in #82, and the size of #96 and #97 being reduced to 19 pages (a temporary company-wide policy at the time). Still, it's a net increase of a full other 23 pages total in the run.

So, of the 32 issues of his run, 10 of them were fill-ins and one was breakdowns only.

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David Aspmo

Wow, I wish I had that type of time on my hands. Kudos :)

But you're exactly correct, Adam has never been a speed demon on art. More recently his Uncanny and Ultimate X-Men runs were rife with fillins, and he only did the 1st and 3rd arcs on Ultimate FF (12 issues in 17 months) with Immonen doing the arc in between. Still he's never been this slow, and I don't think it's the change in style that is making him slow, there's something else going on. As much as we've heard from Busiek and Johns, you'd think we would hear something from Adam about these delays.

David Aspmo
04-15-2007, 04:16 PM
Still he's never been this slow, and I don't think it's the change in style that is making him slow, there's something else going on. As much as we've heard from Busiek and Johns, you'd think we would hear something from Adam about these delays.
You know, I gotta say, even if it is true that Adam is the sole reason for these unprecedented (for him, I mean) delays, I'm a little bothered by Johns publicly throwing him under the bus like that. It appears that his motivation was really just to defend Donner from the "These Hollywood types just don't care about deadlines in comics!" attacks, but still.

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David Aspmo

Artie Pink
04-15-2007, 04:16 PM
There's more money to be made with DC Direct action figures than actual DC comic books. So the Kuberts were given plenty of time to work on the turnaround sheets for the figures modelled after their work.