"If we'd had this Press in WWII, we wouldn't have kept fighting"

[joespam]

Overhead some old fellas in the Gym locker room yesterday having this conversation. They were talking about the bloody and horriffic battles in the South Pacific.

I had to bite my tongue to not say "If we'd had THIS administration in WWII, we would've lost."

My father tells me that this is the same thing that was said a lot during Vietnam as well. I don't deny that the media has a big influence on the mood of the public, but it seems to me that if reality matched up better to the unbridled optimism spewed by the White House and its syncophants over the course of the war, it wouldn't matter one goddamn bit what the Press said about it, so long as they reported the truth.

Anyone who thinks the Press holds the bulk of the responsibility for the fiasco that is Iraq, is at best in serious denial, and at worst, a fool.

[Amos Moses]

I doubt we've seen that much of the brutality in WW2. Lord knows the Europeans did.

[joespam]

I doubt we've seen that much of the brutality in WW2. Lord knows the Europeans did.I don't understand your point.

Europeans had it worse than us in WWII? Iraq isn't as brutal as WWII?

Either way how am I meant to apply your point to what I said?

[Smokinblues]

I don't understand your point.

Europeans had it worse than us in WWII? Iraq isn't as brutal as WWII?

Either way how am I meant to apply your point to what I said?

once in the morning and once before bed, but never more than twice a day

[Evan Wiener]

I don't remember a lot of negative uproar during the Persian Gulf War in the early 90s, and not a lot of backlash against the administration. Certainly not on this level, and I think that admin knew how to handle the military better. Bush Sr.'s problem was promising no new taxes, which he couldn't back up after justly going to defend Kuwait.

[Tuco]

even if there was the same media coverage in WWII as there is today, we were fighting the nazi's. in fact, there would probably have been more press about the holocost and the atrocities taking place, and we'd still have fought and won the war.
-RAZ

on a side note joespam, i love your sig. is that someone random or someone famous?

[Gregory]

That quote is popular among right-wing TV and radio folks who don't want anyone to heed the larger media outlets. And then they fill their programs with articles from the large media outlets (AP, UPI, various national papers).

The problem with passively comparing the war on terror with WWII is that we aren't collectively fighting a war as a nation. No rationing, no draft, no national volunteer efforts. We were told to go about our normal business or else the terrorists will have won.

[RickLM]

The military wins or loses a conflict, not the Press. The Press simply reports what it sees in Europe, Vietnam, Desert Storm 1991 or Baghdad 2007. The Right is intellectually dishonest if they think anyone besides the Bush Administration is responsible for the current fiasco.

[TSChamp]

The truth of the matter is that the American public was tired of WWII. The was one of the things President Roosevelt considered when decideing to use the A-bomb.

[RickLM]

Truman made the decision.

[WillieLee]

WW2 was a very unpopular war.

[DaveCummings]

Truman made the decision.


He made the decision because if we would of had a full scale invasion of Tokyo, casualties on both sides could of easily have been in the millions. As harsh as it sounds, the dropping of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were easier for both sides. The death rate for the bombs was alot lower than what was calculated for the invasion of Japan.

Just saying.

And WWII wasn't really "unpopular", granted, there were protests in the beginning because of isolationists thinking that we should stay out of what was happening in Europe and Asia.

[mario]

Europeans had it worse than us in WWII? Iraq isn't as brutal as WWII?


boy, where to start...

[joespam]

boy, where to start...I don't deny it, I just don't understand what the hell it has to do with the thread subject.

[Doc Randy]

I think he is saying that the US was anesticized (sp?) against the brutalities of war. Our domestic media during WW2 did not show the same levels of carnage or violence that the Europeans were directly experiencing.

I am sure if Americans saw the true brutality of WW2, public support would have lessened. Not enough to stop the war or anything, but it would have been a bit different.

[RickLM]

He made the decision because if we would of had a full scale invasion of Tokyo, casualties on both sides could of easily have been in the millions. As harsh as it sounds, the dropping of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were easier for both sides. The death rate for the bombs was alot lower than what was calculated for the invasion of Japan.

Just saying.

And WWII wasn't really "unpopular", granted, there were protests in the beginning because of isolationists thinking that we should stay out of what was happening in Europe and Asia.


I never said Truman made the wrong decision. I totally agree with you. Since the Japanese leaders were too proud and foolhardy to stop fighting, Truman ended the war. Quickly and decisively. God bless him.

[Ben]

Did you ask the guy where he found a time machine?

[Horizon Drive]

I think when the media starts tearing apart our mission in Iraq, they should remember what happened on 9/11 and just shut up.

[NickT]

I think he is saying that the US was anesticized (sp?) against the brutalities of war. Our domestic media during WW2 did not show the same levels of carnage or violence that the Europeans were directly experiencing.

I am sure if Americans saw the true brutality of WW2, public support would have lessened. Not enough to stop the war or anything, but it would have been a bit different.
I agree with this. Similarly, a WW2 media reguarding Iraq would improve support for the war.

[Ben]

I think when the media starts tearing apart our mission in Iraq, they should remember what happened on 9/11 and just shut up.
What a coincidence! One of the old fellas you overheard in the gym locker room posts here!

[The Girl]

I think when the media starts tearing apart our mission in Iraq, they should remember what happened on 9/11 and just shut up.

alright, now tell me what 9/11 has to do with iraq.

[Horizon Drive]

Everything.

I'm sure you would rather just sit around and let the terrorist attack us again, but I say lets bring the fight to them. Its better we fight them over there rather than having another 3000 americans die.

[Ben]

Everything.

I'm sure you would rather just sit around and let the terrorist attack us again, but I say lets bring the fight to them. Its better we fight them over there rather than having another 3000 americans die.Cutting and pasting the Republican talking points is a great bit! I'm cracking up here!

LOLZ!

[The Girl]

Everything.

I'm sure you would rather just sit around and let the terrorist attack us again, but I say lets bring the fight to them. Its better we fight them over there rather than having another 3000 americans die.

now's the time where i remember that it's people who say things like this are the reason i don't about the war. most of the soldiers don't even know why we're over there. 9/11 and iraq have nothing to do with each other.

[Gregory]

Everything.

I'm sure you would rather just sit around and let the terrorist attack us again, but I say lets bring the fight to them. Its better we fight them over there rather than having another 3000 americans die.

This is the "Iraq as flypaper" theory. I'm sure the people who took flying lessons while living in this country, getting money through wired accounts, and visiting strip clubs before hijacking airliners for a suicide mission are exactly the same people who would move to Iraq and pick up a gun for a frontline strike.

And while we pat ourselves on the back for keeping 3,000 people alive here, let's remember how many non-insurgents are dying while we wage a war on an allegedly imported guerrilla force in an unrelated country.

[Ben]

Guys, relax! "Horizon Drive" is obviously doing a bit! No one actually believes that nonsense anymore.

[The Girl]

Guys, relax! "Horizon Drive" is obviously doing a bit! No one actually believes that nonsense anymore.

phew. he nearly got me! :roll:

[mario]

I don't deny it, I just don't understand what the hell it has to do with the thread subject.

yeah; me too :)

[Drkemerld73]

I'm sure you would rather just sit around and let the terrorist attack us again, but I say lets bring the fight to them. Its better we fight them over there rather than having another 3000 americans die.

Funny thing about our intelligence agencies.

If another attack happens here, it will be their fault they didn't catch it.

If it's going to happen, and it probably will, let's not kid ourselves, all we can do is hope to prevent it, or at the least minimize the casualty count.

Also, how do you apply those comments to the homegrown terrorist groups we have here in the states? Seems like we have to fight them here to keep it from happening here.

If there is a "war on terror" we must apply it to our groups here as well, to be fair.

[The Girl]

yeah; me too :)

lindsay lohan said that quote in your sig, not paris hilton.

[Bill!]

Everything.

I'm sure you would rather just sit around and let the terrorist attack us again, but I say lets bring the fight to them. Its better we fight them over there rather than having another 3000 americans die.

Thanks for the comedy. Are you here all night?

[Generic Poster]

Those WWII guys, by definition, had a pre-9/11 mindset. Yet they still managed to win! I don't get it.

[Horizon Drive]

you're not thinking fourth dimensionally.

In 1996 bin Laden explored possible cooperation with Iraq while in Sudan, but Iraq never responded to a bin Laden request for help. There have also been reports of contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda after bin Laden went to Afghanistan in 1996.

But, lets not debate this, rather let us agree that by bringing democracy to Iraq, we are, in the long term, stabilizing the middle east and concentrating our war on terror in one area.

[The Girl]

you're not thinking fourth dimensionally.

In 1996 bin Laden explored possible cooperation with Iraq while in Sudan, but Iraq never responded to a bin Laden request for help. There have also been reports of contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda after bin Laden went to Afghanistan in 1996.

But, lets not debate this, rather let us agree that by bringing democracy to Iraq, we are, in the long term, stabilizing the middle east and concentrating our war on terror in one area.

i think we should concentrate on ourselves before barging into other countries and pushing our beliefs on them.

[Horizon Drive]

And while we pat ourselves on the back for keeping 3,000 people alive here, let's remember how many non-insurgents are dying while we wage a war on an allegedly imported guerrilla force in an unrelated country.

These are the birth pangs of democracy.

[Horizon Drive]

Funny thing about our intelligence agencies.

If another attack happens here, it will be their fault they didn't catch it.

If it's going to happen, and it probably will, let's not kid ourselves, all we can do is hope to prevent it, or at the least minimize the casualty count.

Also, how do you apply those comments to the homegrown terrorist groups we have here in the states? Seems like we have to fight them here to keep it from happening here.

If there is a "war on terror" we must apply it to our groups here as well, to be fair.


Thank you for the Hezbollah point of view. You should consider writing for Al-Jazeera.

Regarding homegrown terrorists. I'll say to them what I say to you: AMERICA, LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT !

[Horizon Drive]

i think we should concentrate on ourselves before barging into other countries and pushing our beliefs on them.


This is the burdern of being the last remaining super-power, I suppose.

[Drkemerld73]

But, lets not debate this, rather let us agree that by bringing democracy to Iraq, we are, in the long term, stabilizing the middle east and concentrating our war on terror in one area.

Terrorism in all of it's forms will always be around in some form in different parts of the world. You are kidding yourself if you think they are conveniently in one place for us to destroy.

Again, with the homegrown terrorist groups/individuals we have here in the states, aren't we fighting them here?

[Drkemerld73]

Thank you for the Hezbollah point of view. You should consider writing for Al-Jazeera.

Regarding homegrown terrorists. I'll say to them what I say to you: AMERICA, LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT !

Ok.

Tell me exactly how I subscribe to their rhetoric or belief system?

Is it the logic I am using and being very practical?

Please by all means, go back to the very post you countered with and pick it apart.

[Horizon Drive]

Terrorism in all of it's forms will always be around in some form in different parts of the world. You are kidding yourself if you think they are conveniently in one place for us to destroy.

Again, with the homegrown terrorist groups/individuals we have here in the states, aren't we fighting them here?


As our President said, the war on terror is not going to be fast or easy and will probably last generations.

You ask about fighting homegrown terrorists, but I bet you're against the Patriot Act. You can't have it both ways. You want to fight terror here, support the Patriot Act.

[Bill!]

you're not thinking fourth dimensionally.

In 1996 bin Laden explored possible cooperation with Iraq while in Sudan, but Iraq never responded to a bin Laden request for help. There have also been reports of contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda after bin Laden went to Afghanistan in 1996.

But, lets not debate this, rather let us agree that by bringing democracy to Iraq, we are, in the long term, stabilizing the middle east and concentrating our war on terror in one area.

Maybe Bin Laden was working with Saddam. I guess you found a possible link there. :roll:

But think about this. The United States government gave Bin Laden billions of dollars and CIA weapons and training. I'd suggest that the possibility of Bin Laden being an agent of ours is much greater than there being a connection between him and Iraq.

So stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

[Gregory]

These are the birth pangs of democracy.

Imagine it's 1779, and France fights Britain in the streets of Boston, Philly, New York, and Concord while we set up Congress. That's Iraq.

[Drkemerld73]

As our President said, the war on terror is not going to be fast or easy and will probably last generations.

You ask about fighting homegrown terrorists, but I bet you're against the Patriot Act. You can't have it both ways. You want to fight terror here, support the Patriot Act.

It is a VERY flawed policy.

I'm for our Intelligence agencies cooperating together and not abusing any law in order to protect our country.

I value the core values of this country and will be loathe to let any leader throw it away by promoting fear and ignorance.

[BWC Boston]

Hilarious. Let's see, what else did people talk about in 2004...

If the war is to keep another 3000 Americans alive, what do you say to defend the 3200 Americans the war itself has killed?

[mario]

Guys, you don't get it: we have DICK CHENEY POSTING HERE! WHAT AN HONOUR!!

[Drkemerld73]

Maybe Bin Laden was working with Saddam. I guess you found a possible link there. :roll:

But think about this. The United States government gave Bin Laden billions of dollars and CIA weapons and training. I'd suggest that the possibility of Bin Laden being an agent of ours is much greater than there being a connection between him and Iraq.

So stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

Hell, we helped BOTH of them. :)

[Horizon Drive]

Maybe Bin Laden was working with Saddam. I guess you found a possible link there. :roll:

But think about this. The United States government gave Bin Laden billions of dollars and CIA weapons and training. I'd suggest that the possibility of Bin Laden being an agent of ours is much greater than there being a connection between him and Iraq.

So stick that in your pipe and smoke it.


Jim Marrs called, he wants his conspiracy theory back.

[Bill!]

Jim Marrs called, he wants his conspiracy theory back.

Oh the irony. Please, tell me you're joking before I throw up from laughing so hard.

[Horizon Drive]

Imagine it's 1779, and France fights Britain in the streets of Boston, Philly, New York, and Concord while we set up Congress. That's Iraq.


We are in the last throes of the insurgency. Patience.

[Bill!]

We are in the last throes of the insurgency. Patience.

Heh. Didn't Cheney say that like two years ago?

If you're serious, I feel very sorry for you.

If you're joking, its unnecessary. We already have enough crazy parody here called Van Sciver.

[Gregory]

We are in the last throes of the insurgency. Patience.

OK, now I'm convinced you're quoting Cheney.

[Horizon Drive]

Hilarious. Let's see, what else did people talk about in 2004...

If the war is to keep another 3000 Americans alive, what do you say to defend the 3200 Americans the war itself has killed?

Lets see, the first were killed were civilians on their way to work in an non-military target in a time of peace.

And the latter number represents an all volunteer army going to a country that we are at war with.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

Heh. Didn't Cheney say that like two years ago?

If you're serious, I feel very sorry for you.

If you're joking, its unnecessary. We already have enough crazy parody here called Van Sciver.

Dick Cheney is a lizard man from the Moon, Bill. You mustn't believe anything he says. And I feel sorry for anyone who doesn't believe that.

[BWC Boston]

Lets see, the first were killed were civilians on their way to work in an non-military target in a time of peace.

And the latter number represents an all volunteer army going to a country that we are at war with.

I see. So even though they both died for no good reason, one counts more than the other?

[Bill!]

Dick Cheney is a lizard man from the Moon, Bill. You mustn't believe anything he says. And I feel sorry for anyone who doesn't believe that.

My brain is about to explode just being in this thread. All the lunacy is overloading my mind.

[Horizon Drive]

Their's not to make reply,
Their's not to reason why,
Their's but to do and die:

Lord Alfred Tennyson; The Charge of the Light Brigade

[Drkemerld73]

Thank you for the Hezbollah point of view. You should consider writing for Al-Jazeera.

Regarding homegrown terrorists. I'll say to them what I say to you: AMERICA, LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT !

Come on... Go for it. Here is my original post:


Funny thing about our intelligence agencies.

If another attack happens here, it will be their fault they didn't catch it.

If it's going to happen, and it probably will, let's not kid ourselves, all we can do is hope to prevent it, or at the least minimize the casualty count.

Also, how do you apply those comments to the homegrown terrorist groups we have here in the states? Seems like we have to fight them here to keep it from happening here.

If there is a "war on terror" we must apply it to our groups here as well, to be fair.

Tell me where I am speaking from a "Hezbollah point of view".

Please, by all means.

Intelligence againcies failing to thwart an attack being blamed?
It's their job isn't it to stop these things or at least minimize them. If they don't, they should be held at the least, partially accountable.

An attack happening again sometime in the history of the States?
Very likely. And we should not burry our heads to that very real possibility. Do you honestly think it's not going to happen again?

Homegrown terrorists being just as dangerous?
We do have to fight them over here by the way, hense the word "homegrown".
Oklahoma City is a good example of what happens when homegrown terrorists are left unchecked.

If anything, I am a realist.

So again...

Prove to me that I am speaking with a "Hezbollah point of view".

Please do it maturely and thoughtfully.

Thanks. :thumb:

[Bill!]

Their's not to make reply,
Their's not to reason why,
Their's but to do and die:

Lord Alfred Tennyson; The Charge of the Light Brigade

Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious.
- Oscar Wilde

[Ethan Van Sciver]

Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious.
- Oscar Wilde

Which finally explains why liberals claim to be the "real patriots!"

Either these curtains go or I do.
-Oscar Wilde

[McAfee]

This is the burdern of being the last remaining super-power, I suppose.

This is the ideal of an administration, and those of like minds, with a very messed up and dangerous world view.

[NickT]

Guys, you don't get it: we have DICK CHENEY POSTING HERE! WHAT AN HONOUR!!
No, you don't get it. DICK CHENEY POSTING HERE! DUCK!!!!

[Bill!]

Which finally explains why liberals claim to be the "real patriots!"

Either these curtains go or I do.
-Oscar Wilde

If I give you a flashlight do you think you could find a coherent point?

[mario]

Their's not to make reply,
Their's not to reason why,
Their's but to do and die:

Lord Alfred Tennyson; The Charge of the Light Brigade

Fantastic!

The charge of the light brigade! One of the worst military decisions that led to meaningless los of soldiers lifes due to the stubborness and pride of the officers! (http://www.uea.ac.uk/edu/learn/braysher/charge.htm)

what an apt parable of Iraq!
You are a satirical genius, sir!!

[mario]

If I give you a fleshlight do you think you could find a coherent point?

fixed that for you :)

[Horizon Drive]

Come on... Go for it. Here is my original post:



Tell me where I am speaking from a "Hezbollah point of view".

Please, by all means.

Intelligence againcies failing to thwart an attack being blamed?
It's their job isn't it to stop these things or at least minimize them. If they don't, they should be held at the least, partially accountable.

An attack happening again sometime in the history of the States?
Very likely. And we should not burry our heads to that very real possibility. Do you honestly think it's not going to happen again?

Homegrown terrorists being just as dangerous?
Oklahoma City is a good example of what happens when homegrown terrorists are left unchecked.

If anything, I am a realist.

So again...

Prove to me that I am speaking with a "Hezbollah point of view".

Please do it maturely and thoughtfully.

Thanks. :thumb:


Wow, I guess I hit a nerve. The "Hezbollah point of view" thing is a direct quote of Tony Snow. He said that to some reporter during a White House briefing. Google it. I embellished it with the Al-Jazeera part.

What you call a "realistic" point of view I call fatalistic. Why would you think like that? Why give powers to our enemies?

I think I answered your questions about homegrown terrorism with my two posts about the Patriot Act. You mention an attack may happen sometime between know and the rest of the history of United States. Maybe, I can't predict that far into the future. I will make one prediction, we won't see another attack anytime during the next 2 years and eight months.

Regarding your thoughts about the OKC Bombing...You know that there are some who think that the Iraqi Republican Guard had something to do with that bombing (yeah I know, Jim Marrs called, he wants his conspiracy theory back.)

Anyway, that was under a previous administration. I think that President responded to that attack by going after talk radio.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

If I give you a flashlight do you think you could find my tiny inverted pee pee?

No, I fixed it for him!

[Bill!]

Fantastic!

The charge of the light brigade! One of the worst military decisions that led to meaningless los of soldiers lifes due to the stubborness and pride of the officers! (http://www.uea.ac.uk/edu/learn/braysher/charge.htm)

what an apt parable of Iraq!
You are a satirical genius, sir!!

Just out of curiosity, did Tennyson charge in with his men? I don't know my history in that era well enough apparently.

[Horizon Drive]

Fantastic!

The charge of the light brigade! One of the worst military decisions that led to meaningless los of soldiers lifes due to the stubborness and pride of the officers! (http://www.uea.ac.uk/edu/learn/braysher/charge.htm)

what an apt parable of Iraq!
You are a satirical genius, sir!!

Uhm, thanks

[mario]

DUCK!!!!

Where?

*looks up*

[Bill!]

No, I fixed it for him!

Another ingenious Van Sciver retort. Bravo sir. You are a wordsmith. Your intellect knows no equal.

[NickT]

Just out of curiosity, did Tennyson charge in with his men? I don't know my history in that era well enough apparently.
The poet? I don't think he was even there.

[mario]

Uhm, thanks

no, really: thank you!
You're giving me more amusement than anything today! And I've had a good day too. Kudos! Or should I say "Mission Accomplished!"

teehee

Keep up the hard work.

[Bill!]

The poet? I don't think he was even there.

Exactly.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

Another ingenious Van Sciver retort. Bravo sir. You are a wordsmith. Your intellect knows no equal.

I'm good at Mad Libs too.

[NickT]

Exactly.
Ooooooh. I don't know my history in that era at all, didn't realise what you were getting at :)

[mario]

Just out of curiosity, did Tennyson charge in with his men? I don't know my history in that era well enough apparently.

No. That poem was a piece of propaganda. Like almost all reporting from the battlefields.
The Charge was a giant fuck-up but Tennyson was ordered to make it a heroic piece of gung ho sacrifice.

The charge of the Light Brigade continues to be studied by modern military historians and students as an example of what can go wrong when accurate military intelligence is lacking and orders are unclear (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_of_the_Light_Brigade)

[Ethan Van Sciver]

No. That poem was a piece of propaganda. Like almost all reporting from the battlefields.
The Charge was a giant fuck-up but Tennyson was ordered to make it a heroic piece of gung ho sacrifice.

The charge of the Light Brigade continues to be studied by modern military historians and students as an example of what can go wrong when accurate military intelligence is lacking and orders are unclear (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_of_the_Light_Brigade)

Propaganda is a great weapon in that way. If only Jimmy Carter could have written something beautiful about crashed helicopters. He'd still be president today.

[joespam]

Everything in this thread?

All the Press' fault.

[Fake Pat]

What you call a "realistic" point of view I call fatalistic. Why would you think like that? Why give powers to our enemies?


Our thoughts give "powers" to our enemies?

OPRAH WAS RIGHT!

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...it's "the secret".

[Drkemerld73]

Wow, I guess I hit a nerve. The "Hezbollah point of view" point of view thing is a direct quote of Tony Snow. He said that to some reporter during a White House briefing. Google it. I embellished it with the Al-Jazeera part.

What you call a "realistic" point of you I call fatalistic. Why would you think like that? Why give powers to our enemies?

I think I answered your questions about homegrown terrorism with my two posts about the Patriot Act. You mention an attack may happen sometime between know and the rest of the history of United States. Maybe, I can't predict that far into the future. I will make one prediction, we won't see another attack anytime during the next 2 years and eight months.

Regarding your thoughts about the OKC Bombing...You know that there are some who think that the Iraqi Republican Guard had something to do with that bombing (yeah I know, Jim Marrs called, he wants his conspiracy theory back.)

Anyway, that was under a previous administration. I think that President responded to that attack by going after talk radio.

When you attack my love for this country.. Yes. Yes, you do hit a nerve.

When Tony Snow and all the others use such divisive language it simply sinks your point and makes you look very bad. Combative even, which is EXACTLY what you are being to a lot of people in this thread.

What's "fatalistic"? Wanting to be prepared and actually have a game plan should we get hit again? The fact that we should have a plan to save lives and take care of the wounded? That we can maintain our infrastructure and keep communications, food and water, and other supplies up and running?

Preparation and acceptance of the fact that an attack will happen again is EXACTLY what people in the government should be and are doing.

Everyone in a governmental role HAS to prepare for that eventuality.

If they don't think ahead, there will be a mass panic and God knows what else. Something I hope to never see happen.

What "powers" are we giving to the enemy? Come on give specifics...

And "homegrown" terrorists have JUST as much potential to kill as those from overseas.

Don't push it off on the conspiracy theories. Militia groups are EXTREMELY dangerous. If you are going to go all out for the "War on Terror", they are just as much a potential threat as any other, maybe even moreso because they are HERE.

Edited to add: Don't fling around "Hezbollah point of view" or say that another person can write for Al-Jazeera if your point is to attack just because you heard someone else say it. If you don't agree with another, simply state so, and explain why. It's not hard to be courteous and respectful.

[Bill!]

Ooooooh. I don't know my history in that era at all, didn't realise what you were getting at :)

Honestly I don't know that history very well either. I just don't like it when people write patriotic tales or poems entailing sacrifice when they don't really have a clue.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

Honestly I don't know that history very well either. I just don't like it when people write patriotic tales or poems entailing sacrifice when they don't really have a clue.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0516234870.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

[Ethan Van Sciver]

http://www.pt109swim.com/images/JFK_Postcard_Pic0001.jpg

"Hi Jack! Bill knows you're a fuck up!"

http://www.jfklibrary.org/NR/rdonlyres/DCDEF7A0-228A-42C9-AAB3-93D4957091D3/24766/DCDEF7A0228A42C9AAB393D4957091D4.jpg

"Sorry...."

[Horizon Drive]

Our thoughts give "powers" to our enemies?

OPRAH WAS RIGHT!

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...it's "the secret".

Wholly Misconstrued Statement, Batman!

[Bill!]

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0516234870.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Wow. So you're attacking a war hero who left grad school to join the navy during a time of war and requested transfer to see combat, while you get on your knees for a wanker who couldn't even stay in the Texas national guard? That's pretty low, even for you. But typical of your side I guess.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

Wow. So you're attacking a war hero who left grad school to join the navy during a time of war and requested transfer to see combat, while you get on your knees for a wanker who couldn't even stay in the Texas national guard? That's pretty low, even for you. But typical of your side I guess.

Bill, you said you hated phony stories of war courage. Jack's PT boat was the only PT boat that was rammed by the Japanese during the whole war, because he and his fellow Jack-asses were doin' the Wooly Bully instead of following orders.

JFK was the fucking worst president of all time, right ahead of Clinton.

[Fake Pat]

JFK was the fucking worst president of all time, right ahead of Clinton.

:rofl:

[Bill!]

Bill, you said you hated phony stories of war courage. Jack's PT boat was the only PT boat that was rammed by the Japanese during the whole war, because he and his fellow Jack-asses were doin' the Wooly Bully instead of following orders.

JFK was the fucking worst president of all time, right ahead of Clinton.

I think you need to read up on some real history rather than your right wing crap. Kennedy's boat was doing legitimate patrols in dangerous waters trying to prevent the Japanese from resupplying their ground troops.

[Horizon Drive]

When you attack my love for this country.. Yes. Yes, you do hit a nerve.

When Tony Snow and all the others use such divisive language it simply sinks your point and makes you look very bad. Combative even, which is EXACTLY what you are being to a lot of people in this thread.

What's "fatalistic"? Wanting to be prepared and actually have a game plan should we get hit again? The fact that we should have a plan to save lives and take care of the wounded? That we can maintain our infrastructure and keep communications, food and water, and other supplies up and running?

Preparation and acceptance of the fact that an attack will happen again is EXACTLY what people in the government should be and are doing.

Everyone in a governmental role HAS to prepare for that eventuality.

If they don't think ahead, there will be a mass panic and God knows what else. Something I hope to never see happen.

What "powers" are we giving to the enemy? Come on give specifics...

And "homegrown" terrorists have JUST as much potential to kill as those from overseas.

Don't push it off on the conspiracy theories. Militia groups are EXTREMELY dangerous. If you are going to go all out for the "War on Terror", they are just as much a potential threat as any other, maybe even moreso because they are HERE.

Editied to add: Don't fling around "Hezbollah point of view" or say that another person can write for Al-Jazeera if your point is to attack just because you heard someone else say it. If you don't agree with another, simply state so, and explain why. It's not hard to be courteous and respectful.

I apologize if I impugned your patriotism.

Re: Fatalistic. Let me make this analogy, is it better to be prepare your children for the measles by being prepared to treat them once they inevitably get the disease, or is better to just get your kids innoculated. Its all the difference between being proactive and reactive.

Re: Powers. Let me make this analogy. If your on a team, you don't think that the other team winning is inevitable. You go in thinking your going to win. If you go into the game thinking they are going to win, you are, in effect, giving them power over you.

Again, I answered the homegrown theories with the Patriot Act. Militia groups are scary, but I don't think they are dangerous. I am pretty sure that Timothy McVeigh was convicted of acting alone and no militia group was prosecuted.

Look, you need to relax. This is just a thread on a message board. I don't think I insulted anyone on this thread. As a matter of fact, I think I have been the most insulted person on this thread.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

I think you need to read up on some real history rather than your right wing crap. Kennedy's boat was doing legitimate patrols in dangerous waters trying to prevent the Japanese from resupplying their ground troops.

"JFK was pond scum." NEWSWEEK, August 19, 1996.

How the fuck do you get run over by a Japanese Destroyer off the coast of Western Australia? General Douglas McArthur wanted him court martialed for incompetence. And if you really want to have some fun with JFK, ask yourself how he ended up on PT 109? He was caught dallying around with a known axis spy in Washington's social circuit. Daddy Kennedy convinced enough brass not to court martial him but instead to send him to the South Pacific....away from embarrasment and the media.

A man who has nothing which he cares about more than he does about his personal safety is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the existing of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill

[Bill!]

A man who has nothing which he cares about more than he does about his personal safety is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the existing of better men than himself. -John Stuart Mill

George W Bush

[Ethan Van Sciver]

George W Bush

And....I won the JFK argument.:cool:

[Ryan F]

Re: Fatalistic. Let me make this analogy, is it better to be prepare your children for the measles by being prepared to treat them once they inevitably get the disease, or is better to just get your kids innoculated. Its all the difference between being proactive and reactive.


This is an interesting analogy. The problem is, we went and got our kids innoculated for small pox.

And the vaccine made them terribly ill. :?

[Drkemerld73]

I apologize if I impugned your patriotism.

I'm not sure how sincere you are with that apology. I want to believe you, but when you come out with statements as such:

Thank you for the Hezbollah point of view. You should consider writing for Al-Jazeera.

Regarding homegrown terrorists. I'll say to them what I say to you: AMERICA, LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT !

It makes me a little wary of such statements. I reserve judgment until a later time.


Re: Fatalistic. Let me make this analogy, is it better to be prepare your children for the measles by being prepared to treat them once they inevitably get the disease, or is better to just get your kids innoculated. Its all the difference between being proactive and reactive..

How about this nugget of truth, it's not a matter of either/or. You can be both reactive and proactive responsibly. Letting fear guide your every step is not healthy. Just because your kid might get sick, does not absolve you of researching the potential harmful effects of said drug. What? You're just going to blindly follow?

It's foolish to believe everything can be solved proactively (speaking militarily here). You need a healthy balance of being reactive as well.

We have to be prepared for the worst in case of an attack. It's only common sense. If you think I'm being fatalistic than you better tell every police force, fire department, and every other department in the US that they too don't have to worry about an attack for the next 2 years. I'm sure that'll be a load off their minds.

And I have heard from a lot of officials that believe that it is only a matter of when. They waited what, 8 years to attack? They'll do it again. It's just a matter of time. That's what these people do...


Re: Powers. Let me make this analogy. If your on a team, you don't think that the other team winning is inevitable. You go in thinking your going to win. If you go into the game thinking they are going to win, you are, in effect, giving them power over you.

Who said we went in to this whole thing thinking they were going to win? If I remember correctly the US and pretty much the entire world was united in getting Bin Laden and his group and kicking their asses to the netherworld.

And let's just say if you look at another team and think they'll destroy us. And trust me I've been there. You go in and give it your best shot, with your best plan, and you make damn sure it counts when you need it to. Not half assed like this administration has.

Their power over you isn't about winning, it's about compromising your core values. It's about making you fearful, giving up your rights, of being blinded by anger. They fear an individual and society that is about free thought. About the very foundations this country rests upon. Dissent. That's what they fear.


Again, I answered the homegrown theories with the Patriot Act. Militia groups are scary, but I don't think they are dangerous. I am pretty sure that Timothy McVeigh was convicted of acting alone and no militia group was prosecuted..

Well, apparently the Patriot Act is only for Terrorists communicating between our country and another. According to the talking points, no American citizen is being watched. And homegrown terrorists have no reason to call overseas. So really if you think about it, the Patriot Act, by definition has no baring on our "homegrown" guys. *Yes, I am being snarky*

I also find it funny that you don't think they are dangerous, when part of their doctrine is to overthrow the government. Just because no miltia group was prosectued doesn't mean that they aren't planning anything.

I forget when it was, maybe 2 years ago(?),but they busted a few people in Texas with a lot of explosives and firearms. I mean A LOT. I'll need to look that one up. It wasn't really in the news and I was VERY surprised about that. I only caught a side article about it, since the real war on terror was overseas. That's not dangerous to you? Seriously?


Look, you need to relax. This is just a thread on a message board. I don't think I insulted anyone on this thread. As a matter of fact, I think I have been the most insulted person on this thread.

Look back to what you posted. Look up at the top... I copied it for you. I will not relax when you say that to me, or anyone on this board attacking them and their love for this country. No one should tolerate such talk.

Those are insults. You insulted me. This may be a message board, but that does not excuse the gross lack of respect you have shown by posting such statements.

If you feel like the victim, then it is by your own doing by not posting with thoughtfulness and respect. I'm not going to feel sorry for you.

If you were respectful, then I wouldn't have issue with you.

And just so you know, I will not leave this country, until it leaves me. When that happens, there is nothing worth fighting for. But then, who knows, maybe then the foundations of this country will be worth fighting for even more if we lose our way and take it back breathing new life into it.

[Ben]

Ethan Van Sciver sure does draw pretty pictures!

[Tony Bang]

Bill, you said you hated phony stories of war courage. Jack's PT boat was the only PT boat that was rammed by the Japanese during the whole war, because he and his fellow Jack-asses were doin' the Wooly Bully instead of following orders.

JFK was the fucking worst president of all time, right ahead of Clinton.

Neither of those guys were good presidents (Clinton was pretty awful), but that is complete lack of historical perspective or reality testing.

Andrew Jackson forced people off their land,AFTER the supreme court declared it illegal.

Woodrow Wilson created the PATRIOT ACT's godfather, The Sedition Act, and dragged American into a war that was started by a series of misunderstandings. He was also a supporter of The Ku Klux Klan.

Also, there was some guy in the 80's who sold weapons to terrorist. Then as I slap in the face to the American Dream compared said terrorist to Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson.

[Colby]

Bill, you said you hated phony stories of war courage. Jack's PT boat was the only PT boat that was rammed by the Japanese during the whole war, because he and his fellow Jack-asses were doin' the Wooly Bully instead of following orders.

JFK was the fucking worst president of all time, right ahead of Clinton.

That's pretty historically inaccurate. I mean, "Wooly Bully" didn't come out until , like, the 50s at the earliest...

But the rest of your posts? DYNAMITE crazy, man! A+ crazy!:thumb:

[SethInAz]

The military wins or loses a conflict, not the Press. The Press simply reports what it sees in Europe, Vietnam, Desert Storm 1991 or Baghdad 2007. The Right is intellectually dishonest if they think anyone besides the Bush Administration is responsible for the current fiasco.

Not entirely correct. One of the most effective ways to win a war is to destroy the will of the people fighting it. This includes not only the military but the entire population of the warring nations. The press plays a huge part in this, especially in today's scene where so much Op ed gets passed off with news, or even as news itself.

[Ethan Van Sciver]

Neither of those guys were good presidents (Clinton was pretty awful), but that is complete lack of historical perspective or reality testing.

Andrew Jackson forced people off their land,AFTER the supreme court declared it illegal.

Woodrow Wilson created the PATRIOT ACT's godfather, The Sedition Act, and dragged American into a war that was started by a series of misunderstandings. He was also a supporter of The Ku Klux Klan.

Also, there was some guy in the 80's who sold weapons to terrorist. Then as I slap in the face to the American Dream compared said terrorist to Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson.


Thanks, Tony. I was only fucking with Bill.

While we're struggling to find worse presidents than Clinton and JFK, how about James Madison? He let the British burn down the White House! Yay!

[Horizon Drive]

I'm not sure how sincere you are with that apology. I want to believe you, but when you come out with statements as such:


It makes me a little wary of such statements. I reserve judgment until a later time.



How about this nugget of truth, it's not a matter of either/or. You can be both reactive and proactive responsibly. Letting fear guide your every step is not healthy. Just because your kid might get sick, does not absolve you of researching the potential harmful effects of said drug. What? You're just going to blindly follow?

It's foolish to believe everything can be solved proactively (speaking militarily here). You need a healthy balance of being reactive as well.

We have to be prepared for the worst in case of an attack. It's only common sense. If you think I'm being fatalistic than you better tell every police force, fire department, and every other department in the US that they too don't have to worry about an attack for the next 2 years. I'm sure that'll be a load off their minds.

And I have heard from a lot of officials that believe that it is only a matter of when. They waited what, 8 years to attack? They'll do it again. It's just a matter of time. That's what these people do...



Who said we went in to this whole thing thinking they were going to win? If I remember correctly the US and pretty much the entire world was united in getting Bin Laden and his group and kicking their asses to the netherworld.

And let's just say if you look at another team and think they'll destroy us. And trust me I've been there. You go in and give it your best shot, with your best plan, and you make damn sure it counts when you need it to. Not half assed like this administration has.

Their power over you isn't about winning, it's about compromising your core values. It's about making you fearful, giving up your rights, of being blinded by anger. They fear an individual and society that is about free thought. About the very foundations this country rests upon. Dissent. That's what they fear.



Well, apparently the Patriot Act is only for Terrorists communicating between our country and another. According to the talking points, no American citizen is being watched. And homegrown terrorists have no reason to call overseas. So really if you think about it, the Patriot Act, by definition has no baring on our "homegrown" guys. *Yes, I am being snarky*

I also find it funny that you don't think they are dangerous, when part of their doctrine is to overthrow the government. Just because no miltia group was prosectued doesn't mean that they aren't planning anything.

I forget when it was, maybe 2 years ago(?),but they busted a few people in Texas with a lot of explosives and firearms. I mean A LOT. I'll need to look that one up. It wasn't really in the news and I was VERY surprised about that. I only caught a side article about it, since the real war on terror was overseas. That's not dangerous to you? Seriously?



Look back to what you posted. Look up at the top... I copied it for you. I will not relax when you say that to me, or anyone on this board attacking them and their love for this country. No one should tolerate such talk.

Those are insults. You insulted me. This may be a message board, but that does not excuse the gross lack of respect you have shown by posting such statements.

If you feel like the victim, then it is by your own doing by not posting with thoughtfulness and respect. I'm not going to feel sorry for you.

If you were respectful, then I wouldn't have issue with you.

And just so you know, I will not leave this country, until it leaves me. When that happens, there is nothing worth fighting for. But then, who knows, maybe then the foundations of this country will be worth fighting for even more if we lose our way and take it back breathing new life into it.

Too bad we the "Say Something Nice About A Person You Had A Problem With" thread is locked.

[Amos Moses]

I don't understand your point.

Europeans had it worse than us in WWII? Iraq isn't as brutal as WWII?

Either way how am I meant to apply your point to what I said?

I mean we didn't actually see a lot of what happened. All we had were tidbits from the news back then, while the Europeans were actually experiencing the war.

[Amos Moses]

I'd also like to say Horizon is now one of my new favorite posters for saying "thinking in the Fourth Dimension".

Please let me know when you start building a SpaceShip, I'd like to name it Event Horizon.

[Tony Bang]

Thanks, Tony. I was only fucking with Bill.

While we're struggling to find worse presidents than Clinton and JFK, how about James Madison? He let the British burn down the White House! Yay!

Hard to tell. Knocking Clinton has become a standard for conservative/Republican figures. Which is fine since I love to bash Clinton too.

[Tony Bang]

double post

[Horizon Drive]

I'd also like to say Horizon is now one of my new favorite posters for saying "thinking in the Fourth Dimension".

Please let me know when you start building a SpaceShip, I'd like to name it Event Horizon.

My spaceship is a Delorean and its not a spaceship; its a time machine.

Not sure if anybody else caught the reference but thats what Doc Brown says to Marty in the Back to the Future movies.

[mario]

Hard to tell. Knocking Clinton has become a standard for conservative/Republican figures. Which is fine since I love to bash Clinton too.

Clinton liked to get bashed too!
Preferably by interns!