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Francis
02-22-2007, 06:35 AM
Spoilers for #7 and ASM.

I read Civil War #7 and I thought it ended well. It sets up a very interesting and exciting status quo for the Marvel Universe, but I'm worried about the message it leaves us with.

Reed Richards told that story about his uncle, and he said that his uncle was wrong for opposing the law. Regardless of how draconian and unfair a law is, they should be obeyed. I feel like that's the lesson we're supposed to take away from Civil War as a whole. Tony was right, and Cap should rot in prison for opposing the law, opinion and morality be damned.

Now, knowing Millar and reading The Ultimates, perhaps he is trying to give us a ironic look at the Act, the same way he does with The Ultimates policing the world, and I feel that the beats to undermine the shiny happy fascism that Tony has championed are there (Thunderbolts, Aunt May, Cap in prison, 42, etc), but they're not being highlighted. If 42 was just #42 on a list of 100 things to do, I can't imagine the police state Tony is going to create with his new directorship, but it's being touted as a Good Thing. People are suffering in the Negative Zone, without trial or representation, but it's all okay because Miriam Sharpe has her revenge.

If we're supposed to be saying "heeeyyyy, wait a minute", then that's not being made clear enough in my opinion.

Am I wrong? Is everyone seeing these obvious continued flaws in the Act? Are we meant to continue to argue this, with goods and bads on both sides?

--
Francis

Kefky
02-22-2007, 06:38 AM
WTF does Aunt May have to do with anything? :mistrust:

Matt Jay
02-22-2007, 06:38 AM
Yeah, Cap should've addressed this better when he surrendered. The way things have been left it feels like a set-up for a crossover in a few years that will address the failings of the Act.

Akira
02-22-2007, 06:39 AM
What constitues a "police state"? having law enforcement officers thoughout the country under one auspice? Wouldn't U.S. Marshals constitute a current police state too? And how is Tony championing facsism when the bill was approved and put into law like every other federal law in the country?

Sometimes I think people just like tossing around words like "police state" and "facsist" without the foggiest clue as to what they really are.

Francis
02-22-2007, 06:41 AM
WTF does Aunt May have to do with anything? :mistrust:

She was shot as a direct result of the Act. Kingpin found out who Spider-Man was and killed his family. The minute I heard about the Act this is what I knew the danger was, but Tony just glosses over it, he doesn't care because he lives in a fucking fortress. Well Peter doesn't, and as we've seen in Thunderbolts, Jack Flagg doesn't either. No wonder Reed was okay with the Act, his children are protected in the fucking Baxter Building.

--
Francis

Kefky
02-22-2007, 06:43 AM
Yeah, Cap should've addressed this better when he surrendered. The way things have been left it feels like a set-up for a crossover in a few years that will address the failings of the Act.

Addressed what? He had a chance to stop this from happening, and fucked it up. He admitted his mistake, and faced the consequences. There's nothing else he could've done at that point. He's giving the people what they want.

Akira
02-22-2007, 06:43 AM
She was shot as a direct result of the Act. Kingpin found out who Spider-Man was and killed his family. The minute I heard about the Act this is what I knew the danger was, but Tony just glosses over it, he doesn't care because he lives in a fucking fortress. Well Peter doesn't, and as we've seen in Thunderbolts, Jack Flagg doesn't either. No wonder Reed was okay with the Act, his children are protected in the fucking Baxter Building.

--
Francis

People know who cops are and who the families of cops are. It goes with the territory.

jason hissong
02-22-2007, 06:43 AM
why does it have to have a lesson?

Kefky
02-22-2007, 06:44 AM
She was shot as a direct result of the Act. Kingpin found out who Spider-Man was and killed his family. The minute I heard about the Act this is what I knew the danger was, but Tony just glosses over it, he doesn't care because he lives in a fucking fortress. Well Peter doesn't, and as we've seen in Thunderbolts, Jack Flagg doesn't either. No wonder Reed was okay with the Act, his children are protected in the fucking Baxter Building.

--
Francis

Spidey was getting special protection while he was on Tony's side. Then he decided to switch. Whatever happened afterwards is HIS burned and nobody else's.

Wastrel
02-22-2007, 06:45 AM
People know who cops are and who the families of cops are. It goes with the territory.

yea, but cops arent forced to become cops and work for the gov. just because they are faster and stronger than everyone else.

TheKraken
02-22-2007, 06:45 AM
People know who cops are and who the families of cops are. It goes with the territory.

But an individual cop isn't as high-profile as Spider-Man. I think a CIA agent would be a better parallel... and unless your husband pisses off Bush, their identities are protected...

The moral of Civil War is: Cash rules everything around me.

Wastrel
02-22-2007, 06:46 AM
But an individual cop isn't as high-profile as Spider-Man. I think a CIA agent would be a better parallel... and unless your husband pisses off Bush, their identities are protected...

The moral of Civil War is: Cash rules everything around me.
tony get the money.

JoeE
02-22-2007, 06:47 AM
We don't yet know how extensively the draft will be implemented.

Akira
02-22-2007, 06:47 AM
yea, but cops arent forced to become cops and work for the gov. just because they are faster and stronger than everyone else.

No, but that's not what happened to Spidey. In the situation in question Kingpin came after Spidey's family. Why? Because Spidey unmasked on national TV. Just like people aren't forced to become cops, the vast majority of the heroes in the marvel U won't unmask on national TV.

As for Jack Flagg, he was found out because he was fighting in his neighborhood, not because his ID was exposed to the public.

Akira
02-22-2007, 06:48 AM
tony get the money.

dollar, dollar bill ya'll!

Francis
02-22-2007, 06:49 AM
Addressed what? He had a chance to stop this from happening, and fucked it up. He admitted his mistake, and faced the consequences. There's nothing else he could've done at that point. He's giving the people what they want.

But what was his chance to stop it? Submit to a law he believed was wrong? That's exactly the message I'm worried they're trying to send. If he hadn't spoken up, none of this would have happened. Well that's a terrible lesson, isn't it?

--
Francis

Francis
02-22-2007, 06:50 AM
Spidey was getting special protection while he was on Tony's side. Then he decided to switch. Whatever happened afterwards is HIS burned and nobody else's.

So all registered super people get to live in Avengers Mansion with their families? What about those who don't want to relocate to New York City?

--
Francis

Francis
02-22-2007, 06:51 AM
yea, but cops arent forced to become cops and work for the gov. just because they are faster and stronger than everyone else.

Exactly, plus cops don't have people like Bullseye or Nitro wanting nothing more than to kill their families.

--
Francis

Lab-Rat
02-22-2007, 06:52 AM
We don't yet know how extensively the draft will be implemented.


Well..the way I took it from one of the solicitations....I don't like it

Spoilers in case you don't want to read it
AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE #1 (of 6)
Written by DAN SLOTT
Penciled by STEFANO CASELLI
50/50 Covers by JIM CHEUNG
The CIVIL WAR is over, and from now on, THIS is the new face of the MARVEL UNIVERSE—THE INITIATIVE!
Whose side were you on? Well, if you were pro-registration, then there's one hell of a price to pay. You're in the army now. Every last one of you.
Fall in with YELLOWJACKET, WAR MACHINE, SHE-HULK, JUSTICE, and THE GAUNTLET as they train the heroes of tomorrow for the super-powered conflicts of today! Marvel's army of super heroes has just become a super hero army!
Also featuring THE MIGHTY AVENGERS and a new generation of Marvels.
32 PGS./Rated T+ …$2.99
FOC – 3/15, On-Sale – 4/4/2007

Francis
02-22-2007, 06:52 AM
We don't yet know how extensively the draft will be implemented.

But the law was pushed through congress and, as far as we know, there are no provisions preventing a full scale superhuman draft. Forced registration and servitude. That's fascism.

--
Francis

JoeE
02-22-2007, 06:52 AM
So all registered super people get to live in Avengers Mansion with their families? What about those who don't want to relocate to New York City?

--
Francis

They don't have to. That's the whole point of the Initiative.

Lab-Rat
02-22-2007, 06:54 AM
Well..the way I took it from one of the solicitations....I don't like it

Spoilers in case you don't want to read it
AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE #1 (of 6)
Written by DAN SLOTT
Penciled by STEFANO CASELLI
50/50 Covers by JIM CHEUNG
The CIVIL WAR is over, and from now on, THIS is the new face of the MARVEL UNIVERSE—THE INITIATIVE!
Whose side were you on? Well, if you were pro-registration, then there's one hell of a price to pay. You're in the army now. Every last one of you.
Fall in with YELLOWJACKET, WAR MACHINE, SHE-HULK, JUSTICE, and THE GAUNTLET as they train the heroes of tomorrow for the super-powered conflicts of today! Marvel's army of super heroes has just become a super hero army!
Also featuring THE MIGHTY AVENGERS and a new generation of Marvels.
32 PGS./Rated T+ …$2.99
FOC – 3/15, On-Sale – 4/4/2007


Oh...and to clarify what I posted here....it sounds to me like if you're registered...you HAVE to work for the government...no choice.

Matt Jay
02-22-2007, 06:55 AM
Addressed what? He had a chance to stop this from happening, and fucked it up. He admitted his mistake, and faced the consequences. There's nothing else he could've done at that point. He's giving the people what they want.
I totally agree with him surrendering, just not the dialogue as he did so.

He didn't addresss why he flopped on his initial concern that the government would decide who the bad guys are. What he said was basically that "they were just fighting."...well, no Cap, you were fighting for a reason, remember? You fought because you saw thought the people were wrong. With better writing he should have told us WHY he suddenly thought the people were right and/or why he was wrong. For him to dismiss his valid concerns without addressing them was sloppy, anticlimactic, and lacking in reason.

Francis
02-22-2007, 06:55 AM
They don't have to. That's the whole point of the Initiative.

Seems like escalation to me. The teams created under the Initiative will have their plates full protecting their own homes and loved ones from anyone who knows their identities. What happens when a SHIELD laptop is stolen (as has been happening with the FBI) and identities become national news?

--
Francis

Francis
02-22-2007, 06:58 AM
I totally agree with him surrendering, just not the dialogue as he did so.

He didn't addresss why he flopped on his initial concern that the government would decide who the bad guys are. What he said was basically that "they were just fighting."...well, no Cap, you were fighting for a reason, remember? You fought because you saw thought the people were wrong. With better writing he should have told us WHY he suddenly thought the people were right and/or why he was wrong. For him to dismiss his valid concerns without addressing them was sloppy, anticlimactic, and lacking in reason.

There we go, that's a good description of my problems with this ending. Just because the people wanted Cap to stop, doesn't mean they're necessarily right. Majority is not always right. Minority rights are also important, and the rights of superhumans should be considered.

We've seen how well the gov't picking the bad guys has worked in The Ultimates...

--
Francis

Kefky
02-22-2007, 06:59 AM
But what was his chance to stop it? Submit to a law he believed was wrong? That's exactly the message I'm worried they're trying to send. If he hadn't spoken up, none of this would have happened. Well that's a terrible lesson, isn't it?

--
Francis

People have been saying there were plenty of ways since the get-go. Cap just went with the most thick-headed one.

A good idea might've been to get a lawyer as soon as heard about the draft. That would've fixed everything before any fighting even started. But even if he didn't do that, he could've taken his word to the public. Everyone trusts him. They would have listened.

Starting a little underground faction was just plain dense. He was only putting people's lives in danger, and it wouldn't have accomplished anything.

That's the message in civil war 7. Even superheroes can fuck things up.

JoeE
02-22-2007, 07:00 AM
What exactly is so special about superheroes that they alone shouldn't have to accept the risks that every other public servant has to?

ds9
02-22-2007, 07:01 AM
was there ever a lesson in Civil war?

JoeE
02-22-2007, 07:03 AM
was there ever a lesson in Civil war?

That you shouldn't read comics that you don't like?

chess
02-22-2007, 07:03 AM
Could I ask a couple questions/comments about the ending?

1. Who was the woman Tony Stark was talking to in the last page of the book? Have we seen her before?

2. A superhero group in every state? Wha...? Are they suggesting that Delaware gets their own superhero group? Vermont? It seems like overkill to me. Maybe that's the point.

Francis
02-22-2007, 07:04 AM
What exactly is so special about superheroes that they alone shouldn't have to accept the risks that every other public servant has to?

I think the stakes are unreasonably high, given the abilities of those who might cause them or their families harm.

--
Francis

JoeE
02-22-2007, 07:06 AM
1. Who was the woman Tony Stark was talking to in the last page of the book? Have we seen her before?

Miriam Sharpe. Her son, Damien, died in the Stamford disaster and she became a pro-Registration activist.


2. A superhero group in every state? Wha...? Are they suggesting that Delaware gets their own superhero group? Vermont? It seems like overkill to me. Maybe that's the point.

Every state has cops, why not supercops?

TheKraken
02-22-2007, 07:06 AM
I totally agree with him surrendering, just not the dialogue as he did so.

He didn't addresss why he flopped on his initial concern that the government would decide who the bad guys are. What he said was basically that "they were just fighting."...well, no Cap, you were fighting for a reason, remember? You fought because you saw thought the people were wrong. With better writing he should have told us WHY he suddenly thought the people were right and/or why he was wrong. For him to dismiss his valid concerns without addressing them was sloppy, anticlimactic, and lacking in reason.

He never had any valid concerns. He wasn't ever shown even knowing the provisions of the act. He was fighting because the story required fights. Cap was portrayed as an idiot for the entire series. That's my biggest problem with Civil War. "Rar! We must fight for freedom! The freedom to flagrantly disobey both existing laws and this new registration act when we feel like putting masks on! Rar!........ Gee whiz, turns out we're hurting people with all this fighting. Who knew? We better chill, dudes."

Francis
02-22-2007, 07:07 AM
Well, I'm glad people are still thinking about these issues and not taking CW#7's hearts and bunnies ending as a Good Thing.

We'll see what happens, I'm excited for the future.

--
Francis

Matt Jay
02-22-2007, 07:09 AM
He never had any valid concerns. He wasn't ever shown even knowing the provisions of the act. He was fighting because the story required fights. Cap was portrayed as an idiot for the entire series. That's my biggest problem with Civil War. "Rar! We must fight for freedom! The freedom to flagrantly disobey both existing laws and this new registration act when we feel like putting masks on! Rar!........ Gee whiz, turns out we're hurting people with all this fighting. Who knew? We better chill, dudes."
He stated his concerns in the first issue. I believe they were reiterated elsewhere.

Thomas Mauer
02-22-2007, 07:09 AM
Reed Richards told that story about his uncle, and he said that his uncle was wrong for opposing the law. Regardless of how draconian and unfair a law is, they should be obeyed. I feel like that's the lesson we're supposed to take away from Civil War as a whole. Tony was right, and Cap should rot in prison for opposing the law, opinion and morality be damned.

The lesson is, don't lose sight of why you're doing what you're doing or it becomes meaningless.

chess
02-22-2007, 07:09 AM
Miriam Sharpe. Her son, Damien, died in the Stamford disaster and she became a pro-Registration activist.


Thanks.

TheKraken
02-22-2007, 07:12 AM
He stated his concerns in the first issue. I believe they were reiterated elsewhere.

I didn't say he didn't have any concerns, I said he didn't have any valid concerns.

Matt Jay
02-22-2007, 07:14 AM
I didn't say he didn't have any concerns, I said he didn't have any valid concerns.
So you don't think opposition to the draft is valid? You think the government can be trusted to tell us who the enemies are?

Jef UK
02-22-2007, 07:18 AM
But the law was pushed through congress and, as far as we know, there are no provisions preventing a full scale superhuman draft. Forced registration and servitude. That's fascism.

--
Francis


That's not fascism. See: "congress."

Further, if you are an American male over 18, you too are registered for a draft. Do you think you live in a fascist state because of this?

(I'm not pro-draft in any way.)

Thomas Mauer
02-22-2007, 07:18 AM
There we go, that's a good description of my problems with this ending. Just because the people wanted Cap to stop, doesn't mean they're necessarily right. Majority is not always right. Minority rights are also important, and the rights of superhumans should be considered.

We've seen how well the gov't picking the bad guys has worked in The Ultimates...

--
Francis

This goes beyond the personal rights of heroes. I was firmly on Cap's side throughout the mini series until issue 7. Cap giving up was quite the whammy and at first I hated it. But Cap realized that he had been egotistical to the point that his side as well as the government side had forgotten why they donned costumes in the first place: To protect innocent people.

That said, I still hope the Act crashes and burns. I likes my heroes free of control by a puppet master who gets elected for 4 to 8 years.

Francis
02-22-2007, 07:22 AM
That's not fascism. See: "congress."

Further, if you are an American male over 18, you too are registered for a draft. Do you think you live in a fascist state because of this?

(I'm not pro-draft in any way.)

I'm not pleased with that fact, and yes I think that a draft is not something a government has the right to enforce. If it came to it, I'd take Cap's side in a regular human draft, too.

The not-so-mild difference here is that I'm registered for a draft, I have not been drafted. The Act seems to stipulate that all superhumans must register, and upon registered will be drafted and work for the government.

--
Francis

artimoff
02-22-2007, 07:30 AM
Cap should have challenged the constitutionality of the law & brought it before the Supreme Court. The draft was a random lotery, this act is slavery.


Also, why were people like Hawkeye picked up, she has no powers.

Billie
02-22-2007, 07:33 AM
Sticking it to the man never did superheroes any good.

Lab-Rat
02-22-2007, 07:45 AM
Cap should have challenged the constitutionality of the law & brought it before the Supreme Court. The draft was a random lotery, this act is slavery.


Also, why were people like Hawkeye picked up, she has no powers.


Cause she runs around in a costume being a superhero.

Wastrel
02-22-2007, 07:47 AM
I didn't say he didn't have any concerns, I said he didn't have any valid concerns.

well, i think shield jumping him and trying to arrest him before the act was even passed just because he didnt want to arrest heroes for them was a valid concern, but i agree with everything else you said.

TSChamp
02-22-2007, 08:11 AM
The things I learned from Civil War:

1. I still can't relate to Iron Man.

2. When push comes to shove it is OK to quit because that is what Captain America did right about when he was going to win in end.

3. Tigra is like my ex wife. Sneaks around behind your back to talk to another man.

4. Spiderman is royally fucked.

5. Marvel made a shit load of money off this mega-event.

6. Miller is great writer for the most part.

7. Sucks to be in the Negative Zone.

8. Deadpool is great.

9. Iron Man is eventually going to get his ass kick by the Hulk.(OK that wasn't in Civil War)

10. Punisher is most likely going to break Steve Rogers out of Prison

11. Taskmaster is cold hearted.

12. Namor has the stupidest war cray. (I would have going with the simple KILL THE BASTARDS!)

13. Thunderbolts is the team everyone is talking about.

14. Spiderman can kick Reed's ass.

15. The US Government in the MU has turned into 1940 Germany.

JoeE
02-22-2007, 08:15 AM
15. The US Government in the MU has turned into 1940 Germany.

So where is the ethnic group being marched into gas chambers again?

Bandit Chimera
02-22-2007, 08:20 AM
all i know is the end of civil war and its "rammifications have really turned me off to marvel right now.

i'm gonna keep reading the mutants because they were mostly hands off and new avengers because i like what bendis did with them, and punisher but other than that and maybe omega flight i'm out until they stop this horseshit .....it really is way lamer than infinite crisis IMHO

artimoff
02-22-2007, 08:26 AM
So where is the ethnic group being marched into gas chambers again?

Super-Heroes & people with powers. If Jessica Jones refused to work for S.H.I.E.L.D., even though she doesn't want to use her powers, she'd be sent to jail... In another fucking dimention. no habius corpus when you arn't on American soil.

TSChamp
02-22-2007, 08:32 AM
So where is the ethnic group being marched into gas chambers again?

You aren't like us so you have different rules applied to you. That was the basic concept of 1940 Germany. Anybody following a different religion, wasn't born in Germany, or was deformed was shipped away. You were either in Army or working for the Government in some capacity. They had re-education camp and concentration camps. Performed medical experiments on those there detained and used drugs to break the will of capture prisoners. The Government control every part of the common people's live giving the no freedom to chose for themselves. It was a either do it and live, or don't do it and disappear mentality. Tell me how is that different than the MU Government being portrayed in Civil War?

Akira
02-22-2007, 08:35 AM
So all the people complaining about the Superhero draft don't agree that with great power comes great responsibility, right? ;-)

Bill!
02-22-2007, 08:38 AM
So all the people complaining about the Superhero draft don't agree that with great power comes great responsibility, right? ;-)

I don't think when that line was thought up, they were referring to legislation.

Matt Jay
02-22-2007, 08:39 AM
So all the people complaining about the Superhero draft don't agree that with great power comes great responsibility, right? ;-)
I don't believe that that particular philosophy should be legislated, no.

JoeE
02-22-2007, 08:40 AM
Super-Heroes & people with powers. If Jessica Jones refused to work for S.H.I.E.L.D., even though she doesn't want to use her powers, she'd be sent to jail... In another fucking dimention. no habius corpus when you arn't on American soil.

You don't see a difference between gas chambers and holding cells that create virtual paradises for their recipients?

Besides, these are hardly Jews being marched into the gas chambers, these are people with the powers far deadlier than even illegal firearms.

JoeE
02-22-2007, 08:41 AM
You aren't like us so you have different rules applied to you. That was the basic concept of 1940 Germany. Anybody following a different religion, wasn't born in Germany, or was deformed was shipped away. You were either in Army or working for the Government in some capacity. They had re-education camp and concentration camps. Performed medical experiments on those there detained and used drugs to break the will of capture prisoners. The Government control every part of the common people's live giving the no freedom to chose for themselves. It was a either do it and live, or don't do it and disappear mentality. Tell me how is that different than the MU Government being portrayed in Civil War?

There's a clear-cut public safety rationale with the MU government. No such rationale in Nazi Germany.

artimoff
02-22-2007, 08:41 AM
So all the people complaining about the Superhero draft don't agree that with great power comes great responsibility, right? ;-)

There are plenty of things I want to happen in this world, but I don't think it's the government's place to force them to do it.

Bill!
02-22-2007, 08:42 AM
You don't see a difference between gas chambers and holding cells that create virtual paradises for their recipients?

Besides, these are hardly Jews being marched into the gas chambers, these are people with the powers far deadlier than even illegal firearms.

Fascism is not defined by putting people in gas chambers.

And I like how you use the prison as a vacation paradise argument that people actually use in real world prison debates. As if being locked up forever is such a grand thing. People have horrible misconceptions of what prison would actually be like, whether it be real or fantasy based.

Bill!
02-22-2007, 08:42 AM
There's a clear-cut public safety rationale with the MU government. No such rationale in Nazi Germany.

That's not what the Nazis would say.

Kefky
02-22-2007, 08:43 AM
So, um, has anyone taken into consideration that the negative zone will only be used to incarcerate villains from now on, as was stated by Reed at the end of the mini?

artimoff
02-22-2007, 08:44 AM
There's a clear-cut public safety rationale with the MU government. No such rationale in Nazi Germany.

Sure there was. Jews & Gipsies were poisoning the german culture. Every problem Germany had gone through was obviously the fault of Jews. Nazi's thought Jews were harmfull to public safety.

artimoff
02-22-2007, 08:45 AM
So, um, has anyone taken into consideration that the negative zone will only be used to incarcerate villains from now on, as was stated by Reed at the end of the mini?

Define Villian.

Bill!
02-22-2007, 08:46 AM
Define Villian.

Someone who doesn't do what the fascist government tells them to do? Probably.

Kefky
02-22-2007, 08:48 AM
Someone who doesn't do what the fascist government tells them to do? Probably.


Define Villian.

:lol:

I :heart: you guys. I don't know how I'd get through the day without this wonderful entertainment. :D

Akira
02-22-2007, 08:49 AM
So, um, has anyone taken into consideration that the negative zone will only be used to incarcerate villains from now on, as was stated by Reed at the end of the mini?

Of course not, because it's more fun to ignore the offer of General Amnesty and start calling Iron Man and Reed fascists :)

Bill!
02-22-2007, 08:50 AM
:lol:

I :heart: you guys. I don't know how I'd get through the day without this wonderful entertainment. :D

Heh. I haven't even read Civil War or any other Marvel stuff. I'm just chatting.

Akira
02-22-2007, 08:51 AM
Sure there was. Jews & Gipsies were poisoning the german culture. Every problem Germany had gone through was obviously the fault of Jews. Nazi's thought Jews were harmfull to public safety.

You're right. Reactionary, victim propaganda is just as valid as the actual deaths of over 600 people caught on film. :roll:

JoeE
02-22-2007, 08:51 AM
Sure there was. Jews & Gipsies were poisoning the german culture. Every problem Germany had gone through was obviously the fault of Jews. Nazi's thought Jews were harmfull to public safety.

The difference is the MU government's public safety concerns are entirely justified, not racist bullshit.

Kefky
02-22-2007, 08:51 AM
Of course not, because it's more fun to ignore the offer of General Amnesty and start calling Iron Man and Reed fascists :)

And slavers too! :rofl:

artimoff
02-22-2007, 08:53 AM
You're right. Reactionary, victim propaganda is just as valid as the actual deaths of over 600 people caught on film. :roll:

If there was true justice, the government would have made reality shows illegal, not unregisters people.

artimoff
02-22-2007, 08:55 AM
The difference is the MU government's public safety concerns are entirely justified, not racist bullshit.

So let's have all HIV patients register with the government & force them to take medication they might not want. Better yet, gay men have the highest chance of contracting HIV, so let's have all gay men register.

Bill!
02-22-2007, 08:56 AM
The difference is the MU government's public safety concerns are entirely justified, not racist bullshit.

Its apparently easy to sit in your castle calling Nazis racist while you persecute your own people based on a discriminatory feature that you think is justified.

Bill!
02-22-2007, 08:56 AM
So let's have all HIV patients register with the government & force them to take medication they might not want. Better yet, gay men have the highest chance of contracting HIV, so let's have all gay men register.

Better yet, send all the gay people to an island somewhere to die, or shoot them into space in a big rocket. That way they can't hurt anyone else on the planet. Problem solved.

Akira
02-22-2007, 08:56 AM
If there was true justice, the government would have made reality shows illegal, not unregisters people.

Yes, because America's Next Top Model is more of a threat than untrained persons of mass destruction running around with no laws to keep them in check. Damn you, Tyra!:-x

Bill!
02-22-2007, 08:57 AM
Of course not, because it's more fun to ignore the offer of General Amnesty and start calling Iron Man and Reed fascists :)

The name Iron Man itself just oozes fascism. Think about it.

Akira
02-22-2007, 08:58 AM
So let's have all HIV patients register with the government & force them to take medication they might not want. Better yet, gay men have the highest chance of contracting HIV, so let's have all gay men register.

So forcing people who have been blessed through either birth or fate with fantastic abilities to serve the public trust is tantamount to shooting people who unfortunately contracted HIV in the head?

Wow. Just, wow.

artimoff
02-22-2007, 08:59 AM
They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security

Benjamin Franklin

Bill!
02-22-2007, 08:59 AM
So forcing people who have been blessed through either birth or fate with fantastic abilities to serve the public trust is tantamount to shooting people who unfortunately contracted HIV in the head?

Wow. Just, wow.

Whoa, wait. Civil War is forcing super powered people to serve the government, even against their will? Thats fucked up.

Akira
02-22-2007, 08:59 AM
The name Iron Man itself just oozes fascism. Think about it.

And Captain America doesn't?

TSChamp
02-22-2007, 09:00 AM
Jesus. I didn't mean to go into the Nazi thing. I just made a basic comparsion of trampleing on people's civil rights. It goes back to something I read once.

Goverment should fear the people they are trying to govern.

I compare the Civil War story to the whole mutant fear stories that used to run in early X-Men stories. When you decide that a certain group of people are different and make laws that end their civil rights; they will fight back no matter how large or small that group is. If you don't want you name to printed in the press because you won the lottery, it is your choice. I know the arguement about notifying a neiborhood about a person with a record of commiting sexual crimes will be brought up. The difference is that a everyday citizen can arrest someone to help society. The arguement here is that should that have a badge to do that? Should they just sit there and watch a crime happen?(which is against the law in most states. It isn't enforced but it is there.) Taking that and putting into context of Civil War. People with power are just doing their duty to put the common good. In fact, they are obeying the law in taking this action. The MU Goverment is creating a Army of people that can be classified a WMD and using them to enforce policies that may not be the will of the people.

Taking another step futher if you will, MU Goverment decides to use a team to capture a burgler. In doing so, the blow up a building because the burgler has powers too. Lets say 1000 people die. Now, who is to blame? Who goes to jail for those deaths? The team? They were following orders. The person that order that capture? He was enforcing the law. Just something to think about and most likely be addressed in future issues in MU.

Bill!
02-22-2007, 09:00 AM
And Captain America doesn't?

America is a name that, until recently, was associated with liberty and freedom. Iron Man is typically a name a tyrant or military leader gives himself when he rules over a country.

artimoff
02-22-2007, 09:00 AM
So forcing people who have been blessed through either birth or fate with fantastic abilities to serve the public trust is tantamount to shooting people who unfortunately contracted HIV in the head?
Wow. Just, wow.

Where did I say that. I think you wanted to quote Bill. I said force experimental treatment to find a cure, to make us "safe".

Bill!
02-22-2007, 09:01 AM
Where did I say that. I think you wanted to quote Bill. I said force experimental treatment to find a cure, to make us "safe".

I didn't say that either. I just mentioned how we could ship them somewhere to keep the rest of us safe. I didn't say execution at all.

JoeE
02-22-2007, 09:01 AM
So let's have all HIV patients register with the government & force them to take medication they might not want. Better yet, gay men have the highest chance of contracting HIV, so let's have all gay men register.

HIV is controllable without requiring everyone who has it to register with the government.

artimoff
02-22-2007, 09:02 AM
And Captain America doesn't? Captain America = Captain Freedom

Bill!
02-22-2007, 09:02 AM
HIV is controllable without requiring everyone who has it to register with the government.

It is?

Hey everyone!!! You know that AIDS problem? SOLVED!

artimoff
02-22-2007, 09:03 AM
HIV is controllable without requiring everyone who has it to register with the government.

And so arn't superpowers in the MU. Reed can't come up with a personal power dampener for people like Jessica?

JoeE
02-22-2007, 09:03 AM
It is?

Hey everyone!!! You know that AIDS problem? SOLVED!

Controlling something isn't the same as eliminating it.

TSChamp
02-22-2007, 09:05 AM
Note to self: Keep your fucking mouth shut about the Civil War next time. JESUS!

Bill!
02-22-2007, 09:05 AM
Controlling something isn't the same as eliminating it.

So enlighten me, how do you control everyone with AIDS and HIV and keep them from spreading it?

JoeE
02-22-2007, 09:06 AM
So enlighten me, how do you control everyone with AIDS and HIV and keep them from spreading it?

Sexual education, condom distribution. I would also criminalize knowingly spreading the disease.

Bill!
02-22-2007, 09:07 AM
Sexual education, condom distribution. I would also criminalize knowingly spreading the disease.

That's all been done. But heck, the problem is still out there. Imagine that.

JoeE
02-22-2007, 09:16 AM
And so arn't superpowers in the MU. Reed can't come up with a personal power dampener for people like Jessica?

Christ, I don't fucking know. I'd much rather read comics where Reed can't invent around every conceivable storytelling conflict, personally, but whatever.

Akira
02-22-2007, 09:21 AM
I didn't say that either. I just mentioned how we could ship them somewhere to keep the rest of us safe. I didn't say execution at all.

I misread where you said "shoot them into space"


That's all been done. But heck, the problem is still out there. Imagine that.
Because most worldwide epidemics are cleaned up and cured over night.

Bill!
02-22-2007, 09:27 AM
Because most worldwide epidemics are cleaned up and cured over night.

If Marvel can do it, why can't we? ;-)

chazbot
02-22-2007, 09:32 AM
That's all been done. But heck, the problem is still out there. Imagine that.

America isn't the only country that has people with AIDS living in it. Look at a third of Africa.... and i highly doubt their condom distribution and sex ed are up to the same level it is in America.

hmmm.... maybe superheroes need like giant body condom power dampeners... then everyone would be protected and no one would need to register :D

Bill!
02-22-2007, 09:33 AM
America isn't the only country that has people with AIDS living in it. Look at a third of Africa.... and i highly doubt their condom distribution and sex ed are up to the same level it is in America.

hmmm.... maybe superheroes need like giant body condom power dampeners... then everyone would be protected and no one would need to register :D

I think the point is, you can't solve problems with this by labeling people or education or whatever. The problem is always going to exist because of the human element. It's just nonsense to try and lay down blanket solutions that would end up discriminating against people in some way.

Andrew Bassler
02-22-2007, 09:35 AM
We don't yet know how extensively the draft will be implemented.

You have a good idea how far it will go when Luke Cage, is willing to give up being a superhero and just sit at home, only to have shield agents try to arrest him for that.



The difference is the MU government's public safety concerns are entirely justified, not racist bullshit.


I'm not saying tony stark is Hitler or that the marvel universe is now some kind of Nazi-lite state. Just that you shouldn't dismiss it so quickly. Some people view reality in a completely different way. And they are just as quick to dismiss you view.

Yeah it was racist bullshit but that's our opinion of reality. The Nazi didn't think that way Jews were considered a very real threat to society. A view that pops up every now and again. Some people still think this way.

I'm not comfortable with the comparison that the MU is Nazi Germany but the mu is still what I would call fascist.

I'm also not comfortable with American prison camps like Guantánamo
Nor it's Marvel equivalent in the Negative Zone.

Amnesty International would call it a symbol of injustice and abuse.
It's an opinion I would share after reading Civil War and some of the related tie ins.

In the Marvel Universe you do know what happens when they told the public about the prison "42"
Applause.

Thats something scary to think about considering that Civil War is supposed to be a reflection on current American Values.

TSChamp
02-22-2007, 09:43 AM
: pokes his head in: Is it over? Is it safe to come out now?

Bill!
02-22-2007, 09:44 AM
Thats something scary to think about considering that Civil War is supposed to be a reflection on current American Values.

Well, again, I haven't read Civil War, but the idea that people are willing to sacrifice the rights of a few to keep them safe is something that is very American right now.

Ray G.
02-22-2007, 09:47 AM
The lesson being taught is that when the government decides to revoke your liberty, it's probably for your own good, and you should just go with the program. And if you do choose to fight, you should only do so until some people no longer agree with your cause. Then it was all for nothing and you should just surrender. And if you stick to your morals, a sniper will kill your family.

Fucking A....

chazbot
02-22-2007, 09:50 AM
The lesson being taught is that when the government decides to revoke your liberty, it's probably for your own good, and you should just go with the program. And if you do choose to fight, you should only do so until some people no longer agree with your cause. Then it was all for nothing and you should just surrender. And if you stick to your morals, a sniper will kill your family.

Fucking A....

:D too bad they didn't have snipers during the American Revolution. Washington totally would have given up if Aunty Washington had been snipered by a Redcoat. We sooo could still be colonies right now. Bitchin!

TheKraken
02-22-2007, 09:50 AM
The lesson being taught is that when the government decides to revoke your liberty, it's probably for your own good, and you should just go with the program. And if you do choose to fight, you should only do so until some people no longer agree with your cause. Then it was all for nothing and you should just surrender. And if you stick to your morals, a sniper will kill your family.

Fucking A....

Your liberty to dispense vigilante justice as you see fit? That doesn't sound terribly American... That's what's wrong with Civil War. Superheroes are inherently illegal from a "real world" perspective... bringing too much realism into a superhero universe sucks, and Civil War is a fine example.

Lab-Rat
02-22-2007, 09:51 AM
Thats something scary to think about considering that Civil War is supposed to be a reflection on current American Values.


That's what bothers me abotu he whole thing. Because...the sad part is it IS a reflection on current American Values. We live in a society now where people fly off the handle a scream Terrorism at every little thing. We are led to believe that only the government can save us from the big bad Terrorists. And a large number of the public believes it. We now live in an America that is in a "Post 9/11 World," Which basically means...there are terrorists at every corner and if you don't let the government do everything possable to protect you, which includes violating civil liberties...you may get attacked. Now I know...I'm citing an EXTREME point of view here..but that's the general view of things....and I think that's what the book is depicting...the Extreme point of view.

Cap's group is basically the exact opposite, but still extreme, point of view on how some of the more extremist people would like to react to the current state of Government. "Storm the white house"..."overthrow the government." "We have to fight to protect out rights"...all that jazz. However...the book is pointing out that this extreme viewpoint is wrong. This is why Cap Surrendered. I agree that they should have had him elaborate a bit more in the book. Hopefully they will have him elaborate more in one of the Civil War Fallout books. Who knows.

I just think it's interesting. I'm just adding to the conversation. I like this thread so far.

Bill!
02-22-2007, 09:53 AM
Your liberty to dispense vigilante justice as you see fit? That doesn't sound terribly American... That's what's wrong with Civil War. Superheroes are inherently illegal from a "real world" perspective... bringing too much realism into a superhero universe sucks, and Civil War is a fine example.

Thats always been the kind of thing with superheroes though. They're outcasts, for the most part. They are vigilantes who are accepted as such because they keep people safe. In comics history superheroes were often frowned upon by the actual authorities, but respected at the same time for the work they do. I guess this day in age, society can't accept that kind of vigilantism anymore.

Ray G.
02-22-2007, 09:55 AM
Your liberty to dispense vigilante justice as you see fit? That doesn't sound terribly American... That's what's wrong with Civil War. Superheroes are inherently illegal from a "real world" perspective... bringing too much realism into a superhero universe sucks, and Civil War is a fine example.

Agreed. But the fact is, Civil War was not about registration for metahumans, and simply having your name on file with SHIELD. It was about the draft. Iron Man's plan was to essentially nationalize the metahuman community. They were in effect being told "either you work for us, or you go to jail". They didn't wait for Luke Cage to engage in unauthorized superheroics before they came to his door. They were waiting to make him sign up the second the law went into effect. Tony Stark and the federal government had essentially declared ownership of the superhero community.

Akira
02-22-2007, 09:58 AM
The lesson being taught is that when the government decides to revoke your liberty, it's probably for your own good, and you should just go with the program. And if you do choose to fight, you should only do so until some people no longer agree with your cause. Then it was all for nothing and you should just surrender. And if you stick to your morals, a sniper will kill your family.

Fucking A....

What if the majority of the American people call for a reform that passes though the system of checks and balances to become law?

Since, you know, that's what happened here

JBElliott
02-22-2007, 10:01 AM
yea, but cops arent forced to become cops and work for the gov. just because they are faster and stronger than everyone else.

That's true. In the real world, people who are faster and stronger than everyone else make millions of dollars playing sports. So Peter should sign up with the Knicks and lead then to the NBA championship, or the Jets and lead them to the Superbowl or the Yankees and lead them to the World Series. Same for Luke Cage and so on.

No one says that they have to put on costumes (or not) and beat up bad guys. When's the last time you saw Kobe Bryant do that? Okay, maybe Shaq, but he's the exception to the rule?

Bill!
02-22-2007, 10:01 AM
So.. in regards to this draft thing, help me understand. What about mutant town? Most of those guys are just deformed people with no real control of their powers. Are they to be drafted into service also?

Cth
02-22-2007, 10:02 AM
The lesson being taught is to be intelligent about fighting the system.

Don't sit around and do nothing for 30 days while a law is enacted. Don't storm Congress and start tossing punches. Don't fake being an IT guy when you're clearly out of your league.

But most of all, do something, don't sit around complaining and not lift your finger to stop it through legal means.

I still think Civil War's ending parallels Vietnam's end in a lot of ways.

Akira
02-22-2007, 10:02 AM
No one says that they have to put on costumes (or not) and beat up bad guys. When's the last time you saw Kobe Bryant do that? Okay, maybe Shaq, but he's the exception to the rule?

Actually they ARE being told that they need to join the inititive. Point in fact they are being forced to.

Bill!
02-22-2007, 10:02 AM
What if the majority of the American people call for a reform that passes though the system of checks and balances to become law?

Since, you know, that's what happened here

Then you live in a tyrannical society. A rule by the majority isn't always right. America has proved that in the recent past.

Akira
02-22-2007, 10:03 AM
Then you live in a tyrannical society. A rule by the majority isn't always right. America has proved that in the recent past.

Does this hold suit for all laws introduced by the public and voted and processed accordingly? or just the ones that you personally don't like?

Ray G.
02-22-2007, 10:04 AM
So.. in regards to this draft thing, help me understand. What about mutant town? Most of those guys are just deformed people with no real control of their powers. Are they to be drafted into service also?

Mutant Town no longer really exists due to M-Day. The mutant population is already registered as the 198. They're a seperate deal from the Initiative.

Bill!
02-22-2007, 10:04 AM
Does this hold suit for all laws introduced by the public and voted and processed accordingly? or just the ones that you personally don't like?

Any law that allows discrimination or involuntary servitude on its face is by definition wrong and unconstitutional. Just because a majority of the country can cram it down the minorities throat by passing a constitutional amendment doesn't make it right. By the by, if its not a constitutional amendment, it probably ain't legal.

Was this just regular legislation? If so, I think Millar needs to read up on his con law.

Ray G.
02-22-2007, 10:05 AM
Does this hold suit for all laws introduced by the public and voted and processed accordingly? or just the ones that you personally don't like?

Just the ones that violate our rights. If Congress passed a draft, would you hold it against the young people who protested it and refused to be sent to war against their will?

Thomas Mauer
02-22-2007, 10:06 AM
And Captain America doesn't?

That's Hauptmann Preußen to you. Get it right, goddammit! :mad:

Ray G.
02-22-2007, 10:06 AM
The lesson being taught is to be intelligent about fighting the system.

Don't sit around and do nothing for 30 days while a law is enacted. Don't storm Congress and start tossing punches. Don't fake being an IT guy when you're clearly out of your league.

But most of all, do something, don't sit around complaining and not lift your finger to stop it through legal means.

I still think Civil War's ending parallels Vietnam's end in a lot of ways.

The way I saw it was this:

Captain America was right, but handled his fight extremely poorly and made a lot of mistakes.

Iron Man was wrong, but pretty much made every chess move he needed to perfectly.

That makes for a depressing, nihilistic event in which the bad guys won. But hey, now there's the possibility for 50 different super-team miniseries!

Lab-Rat
02-22-2007, 10:07 AM
The lesson being taught is to be intelligent about fighting the system.

Don't sit around and do nothing for 30 days while a law is enacted. Don't storm Congress and start tossing punches. Don't fake being an IT guy when you're clearly out of your league.

But most of all, do something, don't sit around complaining and not lift your finger to stop it through legal means.

I still think Civil War's ending parallels Vietnam's end in a lot of ways.


Ok. Damnit. You kinda pointed out something else I ment to post in my post above.

Thomas Mauer
02-22-2007, 10:07 AM
America is a name that, until recently, was associated with liberty and freedom. Iron Man is typically a name a tyrant or military leader gives himself when he rules over a country.

Uh-oh. Danny Rand rules Kun-Lun with an Iron Fist! :scared:

Bill!
02-22-2007, 10:08 AM
The way I saw it was this:

Captain America was right, but handled his fight extremely poorly and made a lot of mistakes.

Iron Man was wrong, but pretty much made every chess move he needed to perfectly.

That makes for a depressing, nihilistic event in which the bad guys won. But hey, now there's the possibility for 50 different super-team miniseries!

You know, the more I hear about Civil War, the more interested I am in reading it. Was the writing executed ok?

Who's going to protect ND? I think we probably only need Puck or someone of that caliber.

Cth
02-22-2007, 10:12 AM
RE: Kingpin putting the hit on Peter's family.

That's the only case.

There wasn't suddenly a demand for hitmen to take out families.

How long has Kingpin knew DD's identity?

Kingpin didn't find out about Peter's family because of the Act, he found out because of PETER.


Actually they ARE being told that they need to join the inititive. Point in fact they are being forced to.

The way I originally envisioned the 50 State Initiative, was to have a record on file of everyone's powers, so they could best call up people for truly dire emergencies.

Meaning, if there's a fire demon in Louisana, and the closest hero is in Canada, they're screwed.

Now, suppose Louisana water power hero doesn't WANT to serve..

No problem, Reed can whip up a device and remove their powers/curse. If someone more civil minded wants to step up and help out, all the better.

See how heroes evolve.. some retiring, others taking up old mantles.. some changing their minds later and trying to get their powers back through legal means or through other methods (Storm after Forge took her powers)

Lots of ways things can go really.

In some respects, this is how the 198 SHOULD have been.

Matt Jay
02-22-2007, 10:13 AM
The way I saw it was this:

Captain America was right, but handled his fight extremely poorly and made a lot of mistakes.

Iron Man was wrong, but pretty much made every chess move he needed to perfectly.

That makes for a depressing, nihilistic event in which the bad guys won. But hey, now there's the possibility for 50 different super-team miniseries!
IMO:

I think Iron Man was right, but made some mistakes. I think Cap was wrong, but he did have a point. It made sense for him to surrender, but it would have made just as much sense for him to stay underground with the rest of the NA.

Cap's reasoning for his surrender was absurd, and therefore robbed the series of any real lesson and undermined the rhetoric that this series would be about "the argument". I'm sure that Bru or some other writer will let Cap give a proper explanation, but it should have been in the mini.

Ray G.
02-22-2007, 10:13 AM
You know, the more I hear about Civil War, the more interested I am in reading it. Was the writing executed ok?

Who's going to protect ND? I think we probably only need Puck or someone of that caliber.

If you're just going to pick up the main mini, don't bother. It barely stands alone at all.

To get the gist of the event, you need Civil War #1-7, Civil War: Front Line #1-11, Civil War: Casualties of War, Civil War: The Return, and the Amazing Spider-man tie-ins.

And trust me, it's not worth it.

JBElliott
02-22-2007, 10:13 AM
Actually they ARE being told that they need to join the inititive. Point in fact they are being forced to.

Then that is a problem and is un-Constitutional. Cap would have been better off having Murdock appeal things to the Supreme Court where the law would be overturned.

Even if the real world draft were to be enacted one could avoid it as a conscientious objector or by being in college or having a family or so on. There are ways out of the real world draft. Of course one pays the price of going undrafted, e.g. Muhammad Ali.

Are there ways out of the MU draft that don't involve moving to Canada or the Neutral Zone?

Cth
02-22-2007, 10:15 AM
The way I saw it was this:

Captain America was right, but handled his fight extremely poorly and made a lot of mistakes.

Iron Man was wrong, but pretty much made every chess move he needed to perfectly.

That makes for a depressing, nihilistic event in which the bad guys won. But hey, now there's the possibility for 50 different super-team miniseries!

If you're cynical, sure. This isn't DC :D

Iron Man was right all along, and Cap was wrong all along.

Morally? Neither was right.

The facts remain that Cap was breaking the law and violating the will of the people.

Call it nihilistic if you want, but that's your opinion :) Was Identity Crisis nihilistic because heroes killed and happy go lucky heroes are systematically killed in gruesome ways?

Bill!
02-22-2007, 10:15 AM
If you're just going to pick up the main mini, don't bother. It barely stands alone at all.

To get the gist of the event, you need Civil War #1-7, Civil War: Front Line #1-11, Civil War: Casualties of War, Civil War: The Return, and the Amazing Spider-man tie-ins.

And trust me, it's not worth it.

Yeah. I'll probably be avoiding it then. I have never really been able to enjoy Millar's writing and although the premise sounds pretty cool, the execution sounds a little fumbled. Too bad.

Bill!
02-22-2007, 10:16 AM
If you're cynical, sure. This isn't DC :D

Iron Man was right all along, and Cap was wrong all along.

Morally? Neither was right.

The facts remain that Cap was breaking the law and violating the will of the people.

Call it nihilistic if you want, but that's your opinion :) Was Identity Crisis nihilistic because heroes killed and happy go lucky heroes are systematically killed in gruesome ways?

What if the law is unconstitutional? Then Cap is upholding the law.

Akira
02-22-2007, 10:16 AM
Any law that allows discrimination or involuntary servitude on its face is by definition wrong and unconstitutional.
What is discriminatory about it? It's a draft. Is the military draft illegal because 55 year old married men are excluded? Or does it just make more sense to have certain regulations in place?


Just because a majority of the country can cram it down the minorities throat by passing a constitutional amendment doesn't make it right. By the by, if its not a constitutional amendment, it probably ain't legal.

Was this just regular legislation? If so, I think Millar needs to read up on his con law.

No. A law does not need to be a constitutional amendment to be valid. There are many different levels of laws. Municiple, State, and Federal. And a law does not need to become an amendment to be enforcable on any of those levels.




Just the ones that violate our rights. If Congress passed a draft, would you hold it against the young people who protested it and refused to be sent to war against their will?

Whether I held it against them or not doesn't change the legality of their actions

Matt Jay
02-22-2007, 10:17 AM
If you're just going to pick up the main mini, don't bother. It barely stands alone at all.

To get the gist of the event, you need Civil War #1-7, Civil War: Front Line #1-11, Civil War: Casualties of War, Civil War: The Return, and the Amazing Spider-man tie-ins.

And trust me, it's not worth it.
:blah:

The main mini's all I read. I had no trouble keeping up. It's good, but could have been soooo much better.

Foolish Mortal
02-22-2007, 10:17 AM
Spoilers for #7 and ASM.

I read Civil War #7 and I thought it ended well. It sets up a very interesting and exciting status quo for the Marvel Universe, but I'm worried about the message it leaves us with.

Reed Richards told that story about his uncle, and he said that his uncle was wrong for opposing the law. Regardless of how draconian and unfair a law is, they should be obeyed. I feel like that's the lesson we're supposed to take away from Civil War as a whole. Tony was right, and Cap should rot in prison for opposing the law, opinion and morality be damned.

Now, knowing Millar and reading The Ultimates, perhaps he is trying to give us a ironic look at the Act, the same way he does with The Ultimates policing the world, and I feel that the beats to undermine the shiny happy fascism that Tony has championed are there (Thunderbolts, Aunt May, Cap in prison, 42, etc), but they're not being highlighted. If 42 was just #42 on a list of 100 things to do, I can't imagine the police state Tony is going to create with his new directorship, but it's being touted as a Good Thing. People are suffering in the Negative Zone, without trial or representation, but it's all okay because Miriam Sharpe has her revenge.

If we're supposed to be saying "heeeyyyy, wait a minute", then that's not being made clear enough in my opinion.

Am I wrong? Is everyone seeing these obvious continued flaws in the Act? Are we meant to continue to argue this, with goods and bads on both sides?

--
Francis
I think the point was the law is bad, but it's not going to be changed with fisticuffs. The majority of the American public support the law.

I think at the end Cap realized that what he was doing wasn't changing the public's mind. He's been fighting "for the people", but the people's ideology is not synched up with Cap's, and he finally realized that.

The only way the law will be repealed is when the public mindset has changed.

Bill!
02-22-2007, 10:18 AM
What is discriminatory about it? It's a draft. Is the military draft illegal because 55 year old married men are excluded? Or does it just make more sense to have certain regulations in place?



No. A law does not need to be a constitutional amendment to be valid. There are many different levels of laws. Municiple, State, and Federal. And a law does not need to become an amendment to be enforcable on any of those levels.


If the law violates the constitution it absolutely needs to be a constitutional amendment, otherwise it is illegal. From what I can infer, the Civil War legislation is either unconstitutional or very near the edge. I would have to read more about it to know for sure.

Cth
02-22-2007, 10:19 AM
You're picking NOW as the moment you're listening to Ray?

Wow.

:D

No, you don't need to read Front Line. Return is absolutely not required, nor is Casualties of War.

I would say one or two Spidey issues are required, but they're written so slantedly from someone who's anti-Iron Man that they go off in their own kind of "mini-continuity" to be honest.

It's a decent, fun read, but ultimately it's only something you can decide for yourself. If Millar's writing isn't your cup of tea, that's cool. The premise is interesting and does set things up for Marvel U being different for a long time if they keep with it, and for that reason alone it's worth reading.

If nothing else, wait for the inevitable trade and get it at the library.

Bill!
02-22-2007, 10:19 AM
I can't tell you all how entertaining it is to debate constitutional law in the Marvel Universe. I'm loving this.

Akira
02-22-2007, 10:20 AM
If the law violates the constitution it absolutely needs to be a constitutional amendment, otherwise it is illegal. From what I can infer, the Civil War legislation is either unconstitutional or very near the edge. I would have to read more about it to know for sure.

What was unconstitutional about it? Where is someone's right to dress in longjohns and beat up muggers constitutionally protected?

Bill!
02-22-2007, 10:21 AM
You're picking NOW as the moment you're listening to Ray?

Wow.

:D

No, you don't need to read Front Line. Return is absolutely not required, nor is Casualties of War.

I would say one or two Spidey issues are required, but they're written so slantedly from someone who's anti-Iron Man that they go off in their own kind of "mini-continuity" to be honest.

It's a decent, fun read, but ultimately it's only something you can decide for yourself. If Millar's writing isn't your cup of tea, that's cool. The premise is interesting and does set things up for Marvel U being different for a long time if they keep with it, and for that reason alone it's worth reading.

If nothing else, wait for the inevitable trade and get it at the library.

I might try the main mini as it wouldn't be a huge investment. But it would make or break both Millar and the MU for me as I feel very jaded after picking up House of M to get back into things and being screwed by how bad Decimation was. That's what I'm worried about, Civil War not having any real effects or else the writers of bigger books just won't care that much.

Matt Jay
02-22-2007, 10:21 AM
If the law violates the constitution it absolutely needs to be a constitutional amendment, otherwise it is illegal. From what I can infer, the Civil War legislation is either unconstitutional or very near the edge. I would have to read more about it to know for sure.
Yeah, it's safe to say that it is unconstitutional. However, even I would be bored to tears by a mini involving Captain America's case before the USSC.

Bill!
02-22-2007, 10:22 AM
What was unconstitutional about it? Where is someone's right to dress in longjohns and beat up muggers constitutionally protected?

Where is FORCING someone who has those attributes to use them constitutionally allowed?

Wastrel
02-22-2007, 10:22 AM
What was unconstitutional about it? Where is someone's right to dress in longjohns and beat up muggers constitutionally protected?
i dont really think thats the issue, if you have powers, vigilante or not, you are now a soldier in the marvel u.

Foolish Mortal
02-22-2007, 10:25 AM
Yeah, it's safe to say that it is unconstitutional. However, even I would be bored to tears by a mini involving Captain America's case before the USSC.
An entire series focused on it would be boring certainly, but you could do it as a secondary story in other books.

Cth
02-22-2007, 10:25 AM
What if the law is unconstitutional? Then Cap is upholding the law.

If the law is unconstitutional, then it'll fail judicial review.

It's not Cap's job to act as judge, jury and executioner.

There's such a thing as civil disobedience, but even Rosa Parks knew she'd be arrested if she refused to move. Cap's side seemed to act as if they never understood what that meant.

It was more important for them to save their OWN hides than to make a stand for a larger issue.

Or to put it another way, it'd have spoke more for the American public to see Cap arrested than seeing him fighting in public causing damage to property (something the law was trying to help stop)

And to put it yet another way.. an anti-abortion activist may think that abortion is murder, but for them to take the law into their own hands, rather than use the methods the founding fathers created to achieve change would be wrong. Morally, for them, it's the right thing to do. Legally? It's absolutely wrong.

In this case, if Cap thought the law was unconstitutional, he should have taken it to the public.. change their minds, show them the errors of their ways. He can convince Thor to walk into Hell, convincing some parents shouldn't be that hard comparatively.

And given the number of lawyer heroes that Cap calls friend, he never once looked into that route.

Akira
02-22-2007, 10:27 AM
If the law is unconstitutional, then it'll fail judicial review.

It's not Cap's job to act as judge, jury and executioner.

There's such a thing as civil disobedience, but even Rosa Parks knew she'd be arrested if she refused to move. Cap's side seemed to act as if they never understood what that meant.

It was more important for them to save their OWN hides than to make a stand for a larger issue.

Or to put it another way, it'd have spoke more for the American public to see Cap arrested than seeing him fighting in public causing damage to property (something the law was trying to help stop)

And to put it yet another way.. an anti-abortion activist may think that abortion is murder, but for them to take the law into their own hands, rather than use the methods the founding fathers created to achieve change would be wrong. Morally, for them, it's the right thing to do. Legally? It's absolutely wrong.

In this case, if Cap thought the law was unconstitutional, he should have taken it to the public.. change their minds, show them the errors of their ways. He can convince Thor to walk into Hell, convincing some parents shouldn't be that hard comparatively.

And given the number of lawyer heroes that Cap calls friend, he never once looked into that route.

THANK YOU! :-)

Cth
02-22-2007, 10:28 AM
I can't tell you all how entertaining it is to debate constitutional law in the Marvel Universe. I'm loving this.

I agree, that's why this series works so well.. it gets people talking and excited..

Something not a lot of events have done lately.

Speaking of which, it's interesting how many of Marvel's heroes have been in jail, versus DC.. and then considering how many lawyer heroes Marvel has versus DC..

:P

Mister E
02-22-2007, 10:28 AM
Tigra's appearance in Civil War taught me that a little fur on a pair of boobs is still hot.

Bill!
02-22-2007, 10:29 AM
If the law is unconstitutional, then it'll fail judicial review.

It's not Cap's job to act as judge, jury and executioner.

There's such a thing as civil disobedience, but even Rosa Parks knew she'd be arrested if she refused to move. Cap's side seemed to act as if they never understood what that meant.

It was more important for them to save their OWN hides than to make a stand for a larger issue.

Or to put it another way, it'd have spoke more for the American public to see Cap arrested than seeing him fighting in public causing damage to property (something the law was trying to help stop)

And to put it yet another way.. an anti-abortion activist may think that abortion is murder, but for them to take the law into their own hands, rather than use the methods the founding fathers created to achieve change would be wrong. Morally, for them, it's the right thing to do. Legally? It's absolutely wrong.

In this case, if Cap thought the law was unconstitutional, he should have taken it to the public.. change their minds, show them the errors of their ways. He can convince Thor to walk into Hell, convincing some parents shouldn't be that hard comparatively.

And given the number of lawyer heroes that Cap calls friend, he never once looked into that route.

Well, I think most of that is because its a comic book and fans demand action and entertainment. A long drawn out debate on con law wouldn't go over well in comic medium.

But to play devils advocate for a moment, the law is unconstitutional, yet those who enforce it do so with violence. Are you not allowed to defend yourself and the constitution the same way?

Matt Jay
02-22-2007, 10:32 AM
If the law is unconstitutional, then it'll fail judicial review.

It's not Cap's job to act as judge, jury and executioner.

There's such a thing as civil disobedience, but even Rosa Parks knew she'd be arrested if she refused to move. Cap's side seemed to act as if they never understood what that meant.

It was more important for them to save their OWN hides than to make a stand for a larger issue.

Or to put it another way, it'd have spoke more for the American public to see Cap arrested than seeing him fighting in public causing damage to property (something the law was trying to help stop)

And to put it yet another way.. an anti-abortion activist may think that abortion is murder, but for them to take the law into their own hands, rather than use the methods the founding fathers created to achieve change would be wrong. Morally, for them, it's the right thing to do. Legally? It's absolutely wrong.

In this case, if Cap thought the law was unconstitutional, he should have taken it to the public.. change their minds, show them the errors of their ways. He can convince Thor to walk into Hell, convincing some parents shouldn't be that hard comparatively.

And given the number of lawyer heroes that Cap calls friend, he never once looked into that route.
This also reads as an indictment of just about every super-hero there was, even before the Act (including Spider-man). Cap was just keeping that status quo, even if it was illegal.

chazbot
02-22-2007, 10:32 AM
Tigra's appearance in Civil War taught me that a little fur on a pair of boobs is still hot.

and how!
don't forget that tail though :D

Cth
02-22-2007, 10:35 AM
I definitely agree. They can't sit around talking all the time.

Although, they tried with Amazing Spiderman sorta. Stark and Peter debated before Congress.

I'd be interested if any press reporter went back and looked at that conversation with a new light. Why was he for it, before he was against it?

Still, there's ways to make it work. It doesn't have to be all talk.

Someone storms Congress and takes hostages..
Waco like stand offs..
Costumer demanding air time to give their side of things..
etc..

Thomas Mauer
02-22-2007, 10:39 AM
Civil War: Frontline was a great read and should be checked out in trade if you didn't get the singles.

Mister E
02-22-2007, 10:41 AM
that tail :D

I just hope it doesn't fall off (see Blackhole). I don't think I could handle that.

Lab-Rat
02-22-2007, 11:15 AM
Damn this thread is good stuff.


And while reading it I just realized that I'm wearing a shirt that says "Captain America For Presidet! He's The People's Choice!" right now. I find that funny.

Andrew j
02-22-2007, 11:21 AM
The Initiative will work if the writers think it will work and fail miserably if the writers think it should fail miserably. It depends on what will sell more books and which stories are more interesting.

As for the actual legislation I think that forcing anyone who has powers whether they want to be a superhero or not to become a government agent is sucky but who's to say it's not needed?

Remember 9-11 in the Marvel U would be a slow news day. Philidelphia got incinerated and no one did anything except mention it in passing. Giant fucking robots destroy parts of London and no one gives a shit. The only reason the Stamford incident was given press time was 1. The writers wanted it to and 2. It made great emotional news.

JBElliott
02-22-2007, 11:32 AM
Remember 9-11 in the Marvel U would be a slow news day.

Wasn't 9/11 a big thing in the Marvel U? Didn't all the heroes pitch in to save people? Didn't Dr. Doom shed a tear and think about how he'd never do such a thing? At least I seem to remember an Amazing Spider-Man issue where those things happened.

Andrew j
02-22-2007, 11:34 AM
So what I learned from Civil War and pretty much every Marvel story I've ever read is that I would never ever want to live in the Marvel Universe.

Lab-Rat
02-22-2007, 11:34 AM
Wasn't 9/11 a big thing in the Marvel U? Didn't all the heroes pitch in to save people? Didn't Dr. Doom shed a tear and think about how he'd never do such a thing? At least I seem to remember an Amazing Spider-Man issue where those things happened.


And you would be correct.

Bill!
02-22-2007, 11:34 AM
Wasn't 9/11 a big thing in the Marvel U? Didn't all the heroes pitch in to save people? Didn't Dr. Doom shed a tear and think about how he'd never do such a thing? At least I seem to remember an Amazing Spider-Man issue where those things happened.

Dr. Doom shedding a tear over 9/11? Thats just bad writing. Mischaracterization due to the writers real life reaction.

Andrew j
02-22-2007, 11:40 AM
Wasn't 9/11 a big thing in the Marvel U? Didn't all the heroes pitch in to save people? Didn't Dr. Doom shed a tear and think about how he'd never do such a thing? At least I seem to remember an Amazing Spider-Man issue where those things happened.

That load of horseshit wasn't in continuity.

Lab-Rat
02-22-2007, 11:43 AM
That load of horseshit wasn't in continuity.


If I recall...no where was it said that it wasn't.

evilgenius
02-22-2007, 11:43 AM
The lesson taught here is that even if you don't agree with a law, you have to abide by it, or else you'll get punched by old friends till you do. And even when you do THAT, your OTHER old friends will punch you for it.

Andrew j
02-22-2007, 11:43 AM
Dr. Doom shedding a tear over 9/11? Thats just bad writing. Mischaracterization due to the writers real life reaction.

I was actually getting into the emotion of that issue until the Villains showed up.

Mister E
02-22-2007, 11:44 AM
Dr. Doom shedding a tear over 9/11? Thats just bad writing. Mischaracterization due to the writers real life reaction.

I don't remember the Doom stuff, but that was a great issue of Amazing.

TheKraken
02-22-2007, 11:45 AM
I don't remember the Doom stuff, but that was a great issue of Amazing.

How great was it if you don't remember the most memorable panel? :wink:

Andrew j
02-22-2007, 11:45 AM
If I recall...no where was it said that it wasn't.

Well then I'm wrong and only enhances my point that it was a slow news day. The characters worked hard, shed a tear and never thought of it again.

Albert
02-22-2007, 11:51 AM
Dr. Doom shedding a tear over 9/11? Thats just bad writing. Mischaracterization due to the writers real life reaction.

He was sad that Richards wasn't in the building at the time.

Matt Jay
02-22-2007, 11:54 AM
He was sad that Richards wasn't in the building at the time.

Now THAT makes sense.

Lab-Rat
02-22-2007, 11:57 AM
He was sad that Richards wasn't in the building at the time.


I can dig it. And his thought baloon about him not doing anything like that was because Richards hadn't entered the building yet. Doom would waited for Richards to enter the building to strike!

Cth
02-22-2007, 11:58 AM
The lesson taught here is that even if you don't agree with a law, you have to abide by it, or else you'll get punched by old friends till you do. And even when you do THAT, your OTHER old friends will punch you for it.

Until your old friend clones your dead friend and proceeds to put your dead uncle in charge of the prison he's trying to put you into for breaking the law.

Andrew j
02-22-2007, 12:01 PM
Until your old friend clones your dead friend and proceeds to put your dead uncle in charge of the prison he's trying to put you into for breaking the law.

I hate it when that happens.

Jim T.
02-22-2007, 12:20 PM
Until your old friend clones your dead friend and proceeds to put your dead uncle in charge of the prison he's trying to put you into for breaking the law.

And how many times has that old story been done?

JBElliott
02-22-2007, 12:45 PM
That load of horseshit wasn't in continuity.

Seems like it was. The Towers are in the NY skyline in the comics anymore and there was an issue of Captain America from around that time with him pitching in at Ground Zero.

But the idea that after a few visits from Galactus and Avengers fights in downtown NYC, 9/11 would have been small news in the Marvel U is correct.

TSChamp
02-22-2007, 01:00 PM
The whole SHRA wouldn't stand up in a court of law because it is against the basic right of Presume Innocent standards. Anyone can wear a Captain America costume and fight crime. Steve Rogers could be sitting on his couch watching porn while it is happening. He gets arrested for something he didn't do.


Yes, I know. I can't believe I said that either...

Thomas Mauer
02-22-2007, 01:14 PM
Dr. Doom shedding a tear over 9/11? Thats just bad writing. Mischaracterization due to the writers real life reaction.

Damn, you're jaded...

Brad N.
02-22-2007, 01:26 PM
I find it funny so many people defend the idea of the SHRA by saying "In the real world you can't do this or that without a license, why should this be any different?"

Yeah, because a universe where people have super powers and can fly is so similar to our own that statement almost makes sense. Again, the major difference between cops and Spider-Man is the average beat cop doesn't have Rhino or Electro looking for him.

Foolish Mortal
02-22-2007, 02:50 PM
Wasn't 9/11 a big thing in the Marvel U? Didn't all the heroes pitch in to save people? Didn't Dr. Doom shed a tear and think about how he'd never do such a thing? At least I seem to remember an Amazing Spider-Man issue where those things happened.


Well then I'm wrong and only enhances my point that it was a slow news day. The characters worked hard, shed a tear and never thought of it again.
Yes, 9/11 is in continuity, although I think putting into continuity was a big mistake. JoeQ should have just done non-continuity tribute issues like DC did.

As for the Initiative Program, I think that is here to stay.

Because for one, it allows writers to make use of a lot of old heroes and villains that are currently in limbo, and two, it opens new avenues for introducing new heroes and villains.

bennymatthewtaylor
02-22-2007, 03:23 PM
Cable had some awful things to say about the Initiative retrospectively and the "President" laughed at him and ordered Deadpool to execute Nathan demolishing the Oval office in the process.

Wasn't this the fist step in the Vision's plan for world Domination back in the 80s? Franchising the Avengers?

For all the glee of how much we "Love" the SRA now, it's still horrendously intrusive, and just because one side won the fight it doesn't mean minds have been changed.

Pia Guerra
02-22-2007, 03:45 PM
How about a different context? Let's take another 'god given' talent, the ability to draw (not that I necessarily believe anyone is born with talent, however a lot of people like to delude themselves with such notions). There are groups out there that want to prosecute those who draw child porn or violent porn. No victims involved, no one was hurt creating these pictures, but all the same they're an 'evil' influence on society, harmful some might say and therefore they should be stopped blah blah blah.

It's very difficult to find those who create disturbing images therefore all artists should register with the state, y'know, to protect the children and our future.

And just to be sure these artist types stay out of trouble we'll enlist them into government service creating posters and brochures promoting anti-porn programs.

Yeah, that works.

Fascism isn't about race, it's about scapegoating a minority (jews, gypsies, intellectuals, artists, invalids, muslims, superpowered folk etc) to get the majority united in a cause thereby giving enormous power to the authority doing the scapegoating.

And yes there are elements of this going in today's society.

As for the MU, why not instead just prosecute vigilantes who destroy public property, incarcerate the villains and depending on the violent nature of the crime offer up the option to serve in the government as a way of reducing jail time? Wouldn't that have been a lot easier?

Brad N.
02-22-2007, 03:47 PM
Cable had some awful things to say about the Initiative retrospectively and the "President" laughed at him and ordered Deadpool to execute Nathan demolishing the Oval office in the process.

Wasn't this the fist step in the Vision's plan for world Domination back in the 80s? Franchising the Avengers?

For all the glee of how much we "Love" the SRA now, it's still horrendously intrusive, and just because one side won the fight it doesn't mean minds have been changed.

Exactly. I'm simply amazed at how many fanboys are totally okay with the outcome of Civil War. It's okay to lie, cheat, and create Clor so long as the ends justify the means? HUH?!? The ENDS NEVER JUSTIFY THE MEANS in comics, folks. Not to mention there is still a great deal more to this story to be told and none of it looks good. That is to say we have yet to find out what Frontline will uncover that is so shocking, we'll see what else comes after #42, and a number of other disturbing ideas come to light. To be perfectly honest I can't see how the pro-Reg side winning is anything good other than for the short term. It won't take long to get tired of the same old government sanctioned teams clashing with non sanctioned ones. LAME-O.

Brad N.
02-22-2007, 03:49 PM
How about a different context? Let's take another 'god given' talent, the ability to draw (not that I necessarily believe anyone is born with talent, however a lot of people like to delude themselves with such notions). There are groups out there that want to prosecute those who draw child porn or violent porn. No victims involved, no one was hurt creating these pictures, but all the same they're an 'evil' influence on society, harmful some might say and therefore they should be stopped blah blah blah.

It's very difficult to find those who create disturbing images therefore all artists should register with the state, y'know, to protect the children and our future.

And just to be sure these artist types stay out of trouble we'll enlist them into government service creating posters and brochures promoting anti-porn programs.

Yeah, that works.

Fascism isn't about race, it's about scapegoating a minority (jews, gypsies, intellectuals, artists, invalids, muslims, superpowered folk etc) to get the majority united in a cause thereby giving enormous power to the authority doing the scapegoating.

And yes there are elements of this going in today's society.

As for the MU, why not instead just prosecute vigilantes who destroy public property, incarcerate the villains and depending on the violent nature of the crime offer up the option to serve in the government as a way of reducing jail time? Wouldn't that have been a lot easier?

As usual Pia says what I'm thinking far more eloquently than I could.

Foolish Mortal
02-22-2007, 03:59 PM
Exactly. I'm simply amazed at how many fanboys are totally okay with the outcome of Civil War. It's okay to lie, cheat, and create Clor so long as the ends justify the means? HUH?!? The ENDS NEVER JUSTIFY THE MEANS in comics, folks. Not to mention there is still a great deal more to this story to be told and none of it looks good. That is to say we have yet to find out what Frontline will uncover that is so shocking, we'll see what else comes after #42, and a number of other disturbing ideas come to light. To be perfectly honest I can't see how the pro-Reg side winning is anything good other than for the short term. It won't take long to get tired of the same old government sanctioned teams clashing with non sanctioned ones. LAME-O.
I don't think anyone has said the law was "good", only that it's on the books and it has the support of most of the American public.

Unless Cap is planning on busting through the doors of Congress and scream "WRONG!" And then proceed to take over the Government, then Cap's only option is try to fight the law through legal channels.

But until that happens, the law is going to stand.

chazbot
02-22-2007, 04:03 PM
I don't think anyone has said the law was "good", only that it's on the books and it has the support of most of the American public.

Unless Cap is planning on busting through the doors of Congress and scream "WRONG!" And then proceed to take over the Government, then Cap's only option is try to fight the law through legal channels.

But until that happens, the law is going to stand.

I smell a CIVIL WAR: INITIATIVE spin-off of Cap and Daredevil fighting congress on the issue and eventually over throwing it, with lots of guest stars showing up to testify.
And Bendis should write it. Cause you know it will be ALL talking heads.

A.Huerta
02-22-2007, 04:36 PM
Exactly. I'm simply amazed at how many fanboys are totally okay with the outcome of Civil War. It's okay to lie, cheat, and create Clor so long as the ends justify the means? HUH?!? The ENDS NEVER JUSTIFY THE MEANS in comics, folks. Not to mention there is still a great deal more to this story to be told and none of it looks good. That is to say we have yet to find out what Frontline will uncover that is so shocking, we'll see what else comes after #42, and a number of other disturbing ideas come to light. To be perfectly honest I can't see how the pro-Reg side winning is anything good other than for the short term. It won't take long to get tired of the same old government sanctioned teams clashing with non sanctioned ones. LAME-O.

I dont think so. If Spider-Man can keep fighting his villains for 40 yrs, I think they have enough ideas to make the whole SRA thing last for a while. This whole idea is moving Marvel to another direction with more drama and intensity. I mean, You can only write so much about the same ish before readers get bored.

John Drake
02-22-2007, 04:41 PM
I dont think so. If Spider-Man can keep fighting his villains for 40 yrs, I think they have enough ideas to make the whole SRA thing last for a while. This whole idea is moving Marvel to another direction with more drama and intensity. I mean, You can only write so much about the same ish before readers get bored.

I agree, and you just know this will lead to a huge story where something goes wrong with the SHRA, and the underground guys save the day or something.

A.Huerta
02-22-2007, 04:46 PM
And now we'll see more heroes fighting other heroes and villains teaming up with the rebels and so on. There are many paths to be taken from all this.

Cth
02-22-2007, 04:47 PM
Nah, Hulk shows up and shows how useless the SHRA is.

And the anti-SHRA team is just as useless as the pro-SHRA team.

Thus, proving how useless CW is :)

I can't wait for the Hulk to trash everyone. Especially if Sentry joins him.

Brad N.
02-22-2007, 04:47 PM
I don't think anyone has said the law was "good", only that it's on the books and it has the support of most of the American public.

Unless Cap is planning on busting through the doors of Congress and scream "WRONG!" And then proceed to take over the Government, then Cap's only option is try to fight the law through legal channels.

But until that happens, the law is going to stand.

I still say there is much more going on here than we know. We have yet to find out the deal from Frontlines with Stark and his profits and whatnot. Plus there are a few other little seeds floating around that need to be resolved. Why has Fury been in hiding for so long? I think the concept was well done and a way to inject some "realism" into superhero books, but it has fallen flat for me. I'm still holding out hope that there is more going on here behind the scenes and this will all become Big Brother out of control. Then the good guys can actually win this time. :lol:

Brad N.
02-22-2007, 04:56 PM
I dont think so. If Spider-Man can keep fighting his villains for 40 yrs, I think they have enough ideas to make the whole SRA thing last for a while. This whole idea is moving Marvel to another direction with more drama and intensity. I mean, You can only write so much about the same ish before readers get bored.

To each their own. To me part of the wonder and enjoyment of reading superhero books is that they exist outside our "reality" where people don't actually have powers above the mere mortal. Where if a guy like Batman existed he'd be hunted down immediately and killed or locked up for life in a loony bin. No, I like many others I assume read certain superhero books to look at things a bit differently. I can read a story about a dorky kid who gets bitten by a radioactive spider and instead of dying of Cancer he gains incredible powers and fights crime. To me suddenly making superheroes extensions of the Government is counterproductive. The act itself screams of intrusion. What is odd to me though is how we as fans were supposed to react toward the Mutant Registration Act and now what is essentially the same thing is imposed on the entire Marvel U and we are supposed to embrace it? Not this fan.

frzamonkey
02-22-2007, 05:08 PM
I might try the main mini as it wouldn't be a huge investment. But it would make or break both Millar and the MU for me as I feel very jaded after picking up House of M to get back into things and being screwed by how bad Decimation was. That's what I'm worried about, Civil War not having any real effects or else the writers of bigger books just won't care that much.

you should read it anyway. hell, just being able to read it in one sitting rather than waiting months between issues will probably make it better. It was fun, and it makes me wanna read more marvel stuff (like the Cap book, for instance)

A.Huerta
02-22-2007, 05:13 PM
To each their own. To me part of the wonder and enjoyment of reading superhero books is that they exist outside our "reality" where people don't actually have powers above the mere mortal. Where if a guy like Batman existed he'd be hunted down immediately and killed or locked up for life in a loony bin. No, I like many others I assume read certain superhero books to look at things a bit differently. I can read a story about a dorky kid who gets bitten by a radioactive spider and instead of dying of Cancer he gains incredible powers and fights crime. To me suddenly making superheroes extensions of the Government is counterproductive. The act itself screams of intrusion. What is odd to me though is how we as fans were supposed to react toward the Mutant Registration Act and now what is essentially the same thing is imposed on the entire Marvel U and we are supposed to embrace it? Not this fan.


There are other stories out there, tho. I like the realism and because of that, I'm diggin' Marvel. If people want more fantasy and crazier characters in their books they should read DC, Image or whatever. Things change and in the future, I'm sure I'll get over Marvel too when they go in a different direction. They can't appeal to everyone.

frzamonkey
02-22-2007, 05:20 PM
As for the MU, why not instead just prosecute vigilantes who destroy public property, incarcerate the villains and depending on the violent nature of the crime offer up the option to serve in the government as a way of reducing jail time? Wouldn't that have been a lot easier?

the problem with that is that all heroes are technically vigilantes. so if spider-man fought electro and spider-man threw a car into electro, spider-man would be responsible for the trashed car, and since he has on a mask, who knows where to send the bill (or who to arrest)? which was one of the reasons for the act to begin with.

Brad N.
02-22-2007, 05:26 PM
Jesus people, some of you guys really over anylize your superhero comics. It's a fucking comic book...set in a fantasy world where people have super powers.

Brad N.
02-22-2007, 05:30 PM
There are other stories out there, tho. I like the realism and because of that, I'm diggin' Marvel. If people want more fantasy and crazier characters in their books they should read DC, Image or whatever. Things change and in the future, I'm sure I'll get over Marvel too when they go in a different direction. They can't appeal to everyone.

I'm not trying to argue here, but if you (or any others who cite this as a reason they loved Civil War) really like the realism maybe you shouldn't be reading superhero comics period. So, reading stories about people who can fly into outer space and rip someone in half or toss cars at supervillains is realistic now? I'm not trying to sound like an ass, I seriously want to know what people think is remotely realistic about superhero books and as such why adding this new level of "realism" is such a great thing.

A.Huerta
02-22-2007, 05:42 PM
I like Superheroes in realistic settings, like Heroes for instance. Some people Like just pure fantasy in their stories, some dont. Some like Prince Charming and Snow White living in a modern time and some dont. Not a big deal, really.

Brad N.
02-22-2007, 05:56 PM
I like Superheroes in realistic settings, like Heroes for instance. Some people Like just pure fantasy in their stories, some dont. Some like Prince Charming and Snow White living in a modern time and some dont. Not a big deal, really.

Different Strokes, no big deal. For me I enjoy Daredevil, Punisher, Ghost Rider, etc with an edge. I like my Vertigo titles and Icon line for my more adult themed tastes. BUT, if I'm reading about Spider-Man, Superman, or the Avengers I see no need to inject a comic version of the Patriot Act.

Foolish Mortal
02-22-2007, 06:19 PM
I'm not trying to argue here, but if you (or any others who cite this as a reason they loved Civil War) really like the realism maybe you shouldn't be reading superhero comics period. So, reading stories about people who can fly into outer space and rip someone in half or toss cars at supervillains is realistic now? I'm not trying to sound like an ass, I seriously want to know what people think is remotely realistic about superhero books and as such why adding this new level of "realism" is such a great thing.
It isn't really about "realism", it's about a world where gods, mutants, and magic exist, but what happens to the ordinary folk? What happens to the people that get caught in the middle of all the crazy shit that goes on in their world?

That's the underlying theme of Civil War. It was the ordinary folk saying they want some control over their world.

Brad N.
02-22-2007, 06:40 PM
It isn't really about "realism", it's about a world where gods, mutants, and magic exist, but what happens to the ordinary folk? What happens to the people that get caught in the middle of all the crazy shit that goes on in their world?

That's the underlying theme of Civil War. It was the ordinary folk saying they want some control over their world.

No, it was a political ploy from a few of Marvel's big guns. A Superhero version of the Patriot Act. If what you're saying is true then why did it take this one incident for these people to finally get fed up. That's what bothers me the most I guess. You have decades of comics, superhero fights, and things a thousand times bigger and worse in scale than Stamford (and quite honestly there's a good reason they chose that city) happening in the Marvel U and yet it is now that they push for this act?!? I thought the initial concept was a decent idea but once I realized this was for real and the way it was going to play out I hated it. I still think many characters were out of place. I still think it comes off as a cheap political statement that while McNiven's art is gorgeous falls flat in the story department.

I went back and re-read issues 1-7 again and seriously managed to read 7 issues in less than ten minutes. That's ridiculous.

BriRedfern
02-22-2007, 06:43 PM
I found the last page to be ominous and thought that it was intentionally so.

JoeE
02-22-2007, 06:58 PM
No, it was a political ploy from a few of Marvel's big guns. A Superhero version of the Patriot Act. If what you're saying is true then why did it take this one incident for these people to finally get fed up.

Stamford is not an isolated incident. It was, as Fakedevil said in issue 1, the straw that broke the camel's back, the last event in a line of events leading up to the Registration Act.

xyzzy
02-22-2007, 07:07 PM
Without the actual text of the Act (which doesn't exist) it's impossible to say what it represents.

Regardless, it ended the only way it could because the place to fight something like this is in the courtroom, not the streets.

Foolish Mortal
02-22-2007, 07:11 PM
Stamford is not an isolated incident. It was, as Fakedevil said in issue 1, the straw that broke the camel's back, the last event in a line of events leading up to the Registration Act.
And technically, this stuff hasn't been going on for "decades". In Marvel-time, it's only been going on for 10, 12 years.

The Zevad
02-22-2007, 07:45 PM
Jesus people, some of you guys really over anylize your superhero comics. It's a fucking comic book...set in a fantasy world where people have super powers.

Shhhhhh. Dude chill. Let them have their fun. Now let's see what Herr Stark and his goose stomping Shield agents do now!

Yeah I pretty much agree with every post you've said. But there's a way out. It'll involve yet another cross fucking over. But there's a way out.

Gabbra49
02-22-2007, 08:02 PM
jesus people, i dont think i have ever heard religious people being referred to as "jesus people". Im not religious myself but if read that post i would prob think you were 10 years old. It's wrong to say that kind of stuff man. :no:

Andrew j
02-22-2007, 08:16 PM
That's the underlying theme of Civil War. It was the ordinary folk saying they want some control over their world.

That's a good way of putting it.

Brad N.
02-22-2007, 08:19 PM
jesus people, i dont think i have ever heard religious people being referred to as "jesus people". Im not religious myself but if read that post i would prob think you were 10 years old. It's wrong to say that kind of stuff man. :no:

ummm, yeah, that's so what I said. Who exactly did I call "Jesus people"?

Blandy vs Terrorism
02-22-2007, 08:20 PM
That Millar should never be writer for the 616 Cap ongoing.

artimoff
02-22-2007, 08:22 PM
No, it was a political ploy from a few of Marvel's big guns. A Superhero version of the Patriot Act. If what you're saying is true then why did it take this one incident for these people to finally get fed up. That's what bothers me the most I guess. You have decades of comics, superhero fights, and things a thousand times bigger and worse in scale than Stamford (and quite honestly there's a good reason they chose that city) happening in the Marvel U and yet it is now that they push for this act?!? I thought the initial concept was a decent idea but once I realized this was for real and the way it was going to play out I hated it. I still think many characters were out of place. I still think it comes off as a cheap political statement that while McNiven's art is gorgeous falls flat in the story department.

I went back and re-read issues 1-7 again and seriously managed to read 7 issues in less than ten minutes. That's ridiculous.

It's all that crazy liberal scotts fault. He wanted the MU to have their own 9/11 & have liberty loose because he believes that the American people chose safety over freedom.

To me, Civil War is this year's Avengers Dissassembled. An ok idea with a writer who decided to fudge major details & hope that no one notice. Both event bring a change in the statis quo that seems to be prety good, but the path tread to get there overshadows the destination

artimoff
02-22-2007, 08:23 PM
That Millar should never be writer for the 616 Cap ongoing.

Agreed.

Chris McCarver
02-22-2007, 08:26 PM
I think why I'm against the whole idea of CW is why the SHRA became an issue worth grouping off and visiting serious bodily harm on those considered colleagues, friends, and loved ones not weeks earlier. I know it would've been a helluva lot more boring, if this was really supposed to be a realism-infused overhaul of Marvel-616, it could've been done with a lot less punching and bloodshed.

And if anyone's disputing the fact that the characters have been mischaracterized, if the heroes on either side really felt bad about fighting former allies, what was with all the trash talk? I'd expect Tony's smarmy "hope I don't have to bring that much pain again" crack used against Mandarin or Grey Gargoyle, not a guy he's been friends with for the Marvel-time equivalent of 15 years. Just my opinion.

Mr. Green
02-22-2007, 08:31 PM
99.999999% of the readers were against the SHRA, and then the pro reg side "won". I'm a bit disapointed but CW still rocked.

At least Tony got a nice beat down first.

Brad N.
02-22-2007, 08:34 PM
99.999999% of the readers were against the SHRA, and then the pro reg side "won". I'm a bit disapointed but CW still rocked.

At least Tony got a nice beat down first.

Yep, and now it seems 99.999999% of readers are happy Stark and his crew "won".

Brad N.
02-22-2007, 08:38 PM
That Millar should never be writer for the 616 Cap ongoing.
I also agree. Brubaker should never let them pry it from his hands. I LOVE Millar's work on Ultimates, his Authority, Wanted, and a few other odds and ends I honestly like. I was really skeptical going in on Civil War and now I know why.

Lab-Rat
02-22-2007, 09:21 PM
Yep, and now it seems 99.999999% of readers are happy Stark and his crew "won".

I don't think It's so much that people are Happy that Tony won. I think it's more that the Story ended really the only way it could have ended and it didn't completely suck. It also opened up many potential story possabilities that could be VERY entertaining.

Personally...I'm with Cap and the Anti-Reg group....HOWEVER having said that...I think they went about fighting the whole thing the wrong way. I think that Because of it, it damaged their stance on everything. Because of that...this book could only have ended with the Pro-Reg side winning.

I also agree the characters were mischaracterized alot.

c. page
02-22-2007, 09:43 PM
That's true. In the real world, people who are faster and stronger than everyone else make millions of dollars playing sports. So Peter should sign up with the Knicks and lead then to the NBA championship, or the Jets and lead them to the Superbowl or the Yankees and lead them to the World Series. Same for Luke Cage and so on.

No one says that they have to put on costumes (or not) and beat up bad guys. When's the last time you saw Kobe Bryant do that? Okay, maybe Shaq, but he's the exception to the rule?

not even peter could help the knicks, the way isaiah coaches.

Thomas Mauer
02-23-2007, 03:36 AM
I don't think It's so much that people are Happy that Tony won. I think it's more that the Story ended really the only way it could have ended and it didn't completely suck. It also opened up many potential story possabilities that could be VERY entertaining.

Personally...I'm with Cap and the Anti-Reg group....HOWEVER having said that...I think they went about fighting the whole thing the wrong way. I think that Because of it, it damaged their stance on everything. Because of that...this book could only have ended with the Pro-Reg side winning.

I also agree the characters were mischaracterized alot.

I agree with the Luchador 100%.

Foolish Mortal
02-23-2007, 06:20 AM
Yep, and now it seems 99.999999% of readers are happy Stark and his crew "won".
I think people are happy because Cap finally came to his senses at the end. Cap was slowing turning into a bad guy as the series progressed. But at the end, he finally realized it had to stop.

Cth
02-23-2007, 06:25 AM
I wonder if reaction would have been different if Cap wasn't crying at the end..

It'd have a different feel, that's for sure.

That seems to be the complaint I hear locally.

Foolish Mortal
02-23-2007, 06:29 AM
I wonder if reaction would have been different if Cap wasn't crying at the end..

It'd have a different feel, that's for sure.

That seems to be the complaint I hear locally.
Oy, here we go again. People whining about crying. :roll:

Lab-Rat
02-23-2007, 06:33 AM
I wonder if reaction would have been different if Cap wasn't crying at the end..

It'd have a different feel, that's for sure.

That seems to be the complaint I hear locally.


While I'm sure people are bitching about the crying...I think that all it really needed were just a few more lines of dialog going into more detail about why he was surrendering.

Akira
02-23-2007, 06:36 AM
Yep, and now it seems 99.999999% of readers are happy Stark and his crew "won".

Honestly, my loyalties to Cap & crew switched around CW# 5 and in the insuing Iron Man & NA tie-ins. I was pro-SHRA for the homestretch

xyzzy
02-23-2007, 06:38 AM
Yep, and now it seems 99.999999% of readers are happy Stark and his crew "won".

I think that readers, like Cap, simply realized that you can't change a law by punching things.

TSChamp
02-23-2007, 06:38 AM
From a pure customer stand point, I am worried about where the stories are going from here. Is there always going be a political overtone with stories? What statement is Marvel saying about America if any? Is characters going to be warped beyond what they truly are?

I have read the hype on Newsrama and Wizard, and it always worries me when someone says "long term impact" in any interview.

Matt Jay
02-23-2007, 06:43 AM
I think that readers, like Cap, simply realized that you can't change a law by punching things.
Cap was never trying to change the law. He was just trying to do what superhero vigilantes have always done: operate illegally.

Bill!
02-23-2007, 06:49 AM
From a pure customer stand point, I am worried about where the stories are going from here. Is there always going be a political overtone with stories? What statement is Marvel saying about America if any? Is characters going to be warped beyond what they truly are?

I have read the hype on Newsrama and Wizard, and it always worries me when someone says "long term impact" in any interview.

Long term impact doesn't seem to mean a whole lot these days in the MU.

artimoff
02-23-2007, 06:50 AM
What statement is Marvel saying about America if any?

That 9/11 happend & the American people begged that the government take away its liberty & replace it with safety.

Foolish Mortal
02-23-2007, 06:51 AM
Cap was never trying to change the law. He was just trying to do what superhero vigilantes have always done: operate illegally.
Most superheroes had the blessings of state and local governments for years. It's just that has changed now. Only Cap and company didn't want to get with the program.

But at the end, he finally realized that he was doing more harm than good. The heroes were at each others throats instead of beating up super-villains. That's why he surrendered.

xyzzy
02-23-2007, 06:52 AM
Cap was never trying to change the law. He was just trying to do what superhero vigilantes have always done: operate illegally.

I'd say that, in the past, they've operated at least quasi-legally, and at times with complete sanction from the U.S. Government.

TSChamp
02-23-2007, 06:52 AM
Long term impact doesn't seem to mean a whole lot these days in the MU.


I always look at that as a major retcon is coming.

TSChamp
02-23-2007, 06:55 AM
That 9/11 happend & the American people begged that the government take away its liberty & replace it with safety.


That depends on your POV on what the US Goverment has done since 9/11.

Matt Jay
02-23-2007, 07:01 AM
I'd say that, in the past, they've operated at least quasi-legally, and at times with complete sanction from the U.S. Government.
It depends on who we're talking about and when. Spider-man and DD, for example, were often criminals that could have been arrested, but law enforcement would usually look the other way. From the perspective of that kind of vigilante, the Act simply made law enforcement more tenacious and changed the consequences of being caught.

Akira
02-23-2007, 07:04 AM
It depends on who we're talking about and when. Spider-man and DD, for example, were often criminals that could have been arrested, but law enforcement would usually look the other way. From the perspective of that kind of vigilante, the Act simply made law enforcement more tenacious and changed the consequences of being caught.

Something that always struck me as odd was DD's relationship with the police vs spider-man's. DD was quite often seen in police stations talking to detectives and even being called onto the scene by cops. Spidey, not so much.

Matt Jay
02-23-2007, 07:08 AM
Something that always struck me as odd was DD's relationship with the police vs spider-man's. DD was quite often seen in police stations talking to detectives and even being called onto the scene by cops. Spidey, not so much.
Probably depends on the writer, too. I remember in Bendis' run a rookie cop shot at DD.

Foolish Mortal
02-23-2007, 07:10 AM
Something that always struck me as odd was DD's relationship with the police vs spider-man's. DD was quite often seen in police stations talking to detectives and even being called onto the scene by cops. Spidey, not so much.
That largely had to do with J. Jonah Jameson putting constant pressure on the police and government officials to arrest Spider-Man. Jameson screamed and shouted about it so much, eventually people started to take him seriously.

artimoff
02-23-2007, 07:13 AM
That depends on your POV on what the US Goverment has done since 9/11.

But we know Millar, Bendis' & Whedon's political views lean left.

BronxRonin
02-23-2007, 07:29 AM
Finish the fucking book before soliciting it and make sure it lives up to the hype.

Wastrel
02-23-2007, 07:33 AM
Finish the fucking book before soliciting it and make sure it lives up to the hype.

wouldnt they just hype the shit out of a book they knew wasnt good anyway to make as much money as possible?

BronxRonin
02-23-2007, 07:35 AM
wouldnt they just hype the shit out of a book they knew wasnt good anyway to make as much money as possible?
I guess...lol!
:grope:

Brad N.
02-23-2007, 07:38 AM
I think people are happy because Cap finally came to his senses at the end. Cap was slowing turning into a bad guy as the series progressed. But at the end, he finally realized it had to stop.

I don't think that's it at all. I think most people are sheep and will go along with whatever they are told, but that's beside the point. Cap didn't change at all and I seriously disagree with him progressing into a "bad guy". Cap stood up for what he believed was right and defended the freedoms we all hold dear while another group of shitfucks used their power to influence Congress to aid in getting it passed, built a prison in the Negative Zone, and overall acted like a bunch of asshole dictators and they "won". They won not because Cap knew what he was doing was wrong, not by a longshot. He simply knew he had lost the war of the hearts and minds. Even though he was in the right he knew even if his side won (which they were about to) they really lost. So he surrendered. I still don't like the sudden epiphany though and the crying WAS a bit over the top.

A.Huerta
02-23-2007, 08:12 AM
But we know Millar, Bendis' & Whedon's political views lean left.

A lot of readers dont know the people who work on comics. They could care less.

artimoff
02-23-2007, 08:26 AM
That depends on your POV on what the US Goverment has done since 9/11.


A lot of readers dont know the people who work on comics. They could care less.

I was just informing TSChamp what the POV of the creators (probabaly) are.

Foolish Mortal
02-23-2007, 08:38 AM
I don't think that's it at all. I think most people are sheep and will go along with whatever they are told, but that's beside the point. Cap didn't change at all and I seriously disagree with him progressing into a "bad guy". Cap stood up for what he believed was right and defended the freedoms we all hold dear while another group of shitfucks used their power to influence Congress to aid in getting it passed, built a prison in the Negative Zone, and overall acted like a bunch of asshole dictators and they "won". They won not because Cap knew what he was doing was wrong, not by a longshot. He simply knew he had lost the war of the hearts and minds. Even though he was in the right he knew even if his side won (which they were about to) they really lost. So he surrendered. I still don't like the sudden epiphany though and the crying WAS a bit over the top.
You can still hold on to your ideals and principals and fight for them, but you have to do it the right way. Cap was doing it the wrong way and he finally got the point at the end.

He wasn't accomplishing anything except getting his friends and allies hurt. And the public sentiment was not on his side. Cap wasn't going to win the way he was doing it. The story made that perfectly clear.

He cried because he felt deep down that a portion of the values he fought for all these years had been lost. Those values are Cap's "religion". He believes in them more than anything, and it hurt him to his very core that some of that may have died.

Wastrel
02-23-2007, 08:43 AM
You can still hold on to your ideals and principals and fight for them, but you have to do it the right way. Cap was doing it the wrong way and he finally got the point at the end.

He wasn't accomplishing anything except getting his friends and allies hurt. And the public sentiment was not on his side. Cap wasn't going to win the way he was doing it. The story made that perfectly clear.

He cried because he felt deep down that a portion of the values he fought for all these years had been lost. Those values are Cap's "religion". He believes in them more than anything, and it hurt him to his very core that some of that may have died.

i think he was pushed into doing it that way the first time they tried to arrest him.

andrew french
02-23-2007, 08:52 AM
that comic readers will buy it

Brad N.
02-23-2007, 09:08 AM
i think he was pushed into doing it that way the first time they tried to arrest him.

Precisely. This whole thing is rather disturbing to me. What if the law had been passed that all people with super powers were to be rounded up and killed? Would you guys still support the law simply because it was the law and Cap should have gone along with that? While this law may not be that severe it isn't far off and it's a slippery slope to that point. This law is almost identical to the Mutant Registration Act that was so EVIL years ago.

Are you supporters totally missing the point? Cap fought it because the law was wrong. He fought because he felt that not only was the law wrong, but I'm guessing he felt that there was some evil force pulling the strings. Not to mention from minute one he was pushed against a wall. What I got out of Civil War was the obvious parallel to 9-11 and the Patriot Act, but even that wasn't this intrusive.

The majority of comic fans had it right siding with Cap and his group in the beginning. What is odd to me is how many of you have flip-flopped now that Stark and his cronies won. There will be some interesting stories for a period, but this isn't over by a longshot. Seriously gang, when in a few short months this all goes away and returns to the way things should be will you all flip-flop again and say you always knew the law was wrong, etc?

Wastrel
02-23-2007, 09:23 AM
i mean really, they were willing to illegally arrest him before the act was even passed just because he wouldnt do as they told him. do you really think they would let him orate or do any of these more active (and mundane) activities some of you suggest as the 'proper' course of action? you think they wouldnt do anything to him for taking any sort of direct opposition to them when they already attacked him just for disagreeing?

Lab-Rat
02-23-2007, 09:40 AM
Precisely. This whole thing is rather disturbing to me. What if the law had been passed that all people with super powers were to be rounded up and killed? Would you guys still support the law simply because it was the law and Cap should have gone along with that? While this law may not be that severe it isn't far off and it's a slippery slope to that point. This law is almost identical to the Mutant Registration Act that was so EVIL years ago.

Are you supporters totally missing the point? Cap fought it because the law was wrong. He fought because he felt that not only was the law wrong, but I'm guessing he felt that there was some evil force pulling the strings. Not to mention from minute one he was pushed against a wall. What I got out of Civil War was the obvious parallel to 9-11 and the Patriot Act, but even that wasn't this intrusive.

The majority of comic fans had it right siding with Cap and his group in the beginning. What is odd to me is how many of you have flip-flopped now that Stark and his cronies won. There will be some interesting stories for a period, but this isn't over by a longshot. Seriously gang, when in a few short months this all goes away and returns to the way things should be will you all flip-flop again and say you always knew the law was wrong, etc?


No, you are right. The Law is wrong. I was actually just thinking about this last night that the law really isn't that different than Mutant Registration. I'm curious as to what Magneto's opinion of this whole thing is. :D

My thing is that due to the way the story actually progressed...I knew this was how it was gonna end. The way it was building up, there's not way it could have ended differently. I'm interested in the story possabilities the whole thing presents...and I'm interested to see how things play out once everyone realizes how badly the Registration act is going to fuck up their lives.

I want to know what happens to Steve Rogers next. I'm wondering if he's gonna be allowed to have a voice, or if the government is just going to lock him up, throw away the key, and hope everyone forgets about him.

SAdly I'm both worried and interested in how things will play out. With the way they are going...it's getting to a point where the writers can't fuck up any detail. If they do it's going to ruin alot of characters and alot of books.

Cth
02-23-2007, 09:45 AM
Precisely. This whole thing is rather disturbing to me. What if the law had been passed that all people with super powers were to be rounded up and killed? Would you guys still support the law simply because it was the law and Cap should have gone along with that? While this law may not be that severe it isn't far off and it's a slippery slope to that point. This law is almost identical to the Mutant Registration Act that was so EVIL years ago.


No, but as it's been pointed out time and time again, there's such a thing as civil disobedience.. Cap seemed to have forgotten that.

As far as the Mutant Registration act goes.. what ultimately happened? Has anyone other than mutants been really concerned about it?

Either way, if he had time to build up fake identities, stake out multiple safe houses, recruit members, analyze prisoner routes, etc.. you'd think he had time to contact She Hulk or DD.

And besides, they had plenty of time to register a complaint and no one did.

Cap's mistrust is understandable given that he wasn't arrested, but confronted with a choice by SHIELD. Part of the whole thing is that SHIELD was corrupt and now Stark is helping to clean it up.

Everyone else, though, had no excuse, other than they were blinded by Cap.. and if they were reacting that way, why wouldn't the public be similarly swayed?

The only reason is that if he had released video or somehow got a message to the media, he'd get compared to Osama Bin Laden, which is something Marvel probably tried to avoid to keep everyone happy.



Are you supporters totally missing the point? Cap fought it because the law was wrong. He fought because he felt that not only was the law wrong, but I'm guessing he felt that there was some evil force pulling the strings. Not to mention from minute one he was pushed against a wall. What I got out of Civil War was the obvious parallel to 9-11 and the Patriot Act, but even that wasn't this intrusive.


As did many fans apparently. And ultimately he and they were wrong.

Either way, if you can accept things based on a guess on how Cap feels, how come it's not ok to do the same for Stark's side?



The majority of comic fans had it right siding with Cap and his group in the beginning. What is odd to me is how many of you have flip-flopped now that Stark and his cronies won. There will be some interesting stories for a period, but this isn't over by a longshot. Seriously gang, when in a few short months this all goes away and returns to the way things should be will you all flip-flop again and say you always knew the law was wrong, etc?

I won't. I was always against Cap's irrationality. He could have won without a single punch thrown.

To be honest, it's all a moot point once the Hulk gets back and trashes everyone. It'll show how useless the SHRA is, and ultimately how stupid it is to be on one side or the other.


i mean really, they were willing to illegally arrest him before the act was even passed just because he wouldnt do as they told him. do you really think they would let him orate or do any of these more active (and mundane) activities some of you suggest as the 'proper' course of action? you think they wouldnt do anything to him for taking any sort of direct opposition to them when they already attacked him just for disagreeing?

That was SHIELD.

And they can try. Are you saying SHIELD is more capable than Cap? As issue 1 showed, that's simply not true.

He could have done it easily. To say otherwise, underestimates Cap and ignores 60 years worth of capabilities that show he could have done so.

He let his emotions get the best of him. This is clear from the way they set up Fallen Son as well. It's why Punisher has been out of control in the past. Etc, etc.

Ultimately Cap failed himself and his ideals.

Akira
02-23-2007, 09:51 AM
No, but as it's been pointed out time and time again, there's such a thing as civil disobedience.. Cap seemed to have forgotten that.

As far as the Mutant Registration act goes.. what ultimately happened? Has anyone other than mutants been really concerned about it?

Either way, if he had time to build up fake identities, stake out multiple safe houses, recruit members, analyze prisoner routes, etc.. you'd think he had time to contact She Hulk or DD.

And besides, they had plenty of time to register a complaint and no one did.

Cap's mistrust is understandable given that he wasn't arrested, but confronted with a choice by SHIELD. Part of the whole thing is that SHIELD was corrupt and now Stark is helping to clean it up.

Everyone else, though, had no excuse, other than they were blinded by Cap.. and if they were reacting that way, why wouldn't the public be similarly swayed?

The only reason is that if he had released video or somehow got a message to the media, he'd get compared to Osama Bin Laden, which is something Marvel probably tried to avoid to keep everyone happy.



As did many fans apparently. And ultimately he and they were wrong.

Either way, if you can accept things based on a guess on how Cap feels, how come it's not ok to do the same for Stark's side?



I won't. I was always against Cap's irrationality. He could have won without a single punch thrown.

To be honest, it's all a moot point once the Hulk gets back and trashes everyone. It'll show how useless the SHRA is, and ultimately how stupid it is to be on one side or the other.



That was SHIELD.

And they can try. Are you saying SHIELD is more capable than Cap? As issue 1 showed, that's simply not true.

He could have done it easily. To say otherwise, underestimates Cap and ignores 60 years worth of capabilities that show he could have done so.

He let his emotions get the best of him. This is clear from the way they set up Fallen Son as well. It's why Punisher has been out of control in the past. Etc, etc.

Ultimately Cap failed himself and his ideals.
I think I've agreed with everything that you've said here, and in this entire thread. ;)

Ryan Elliott
02-23-2007, 11:30 AM
I'm sure it's already been said but I'm not going through 25 pages to see if it has:



Everything's not always black and white?

Thomas Mauer
02-23-2007, 11:47 AM
I'm sure it's already been said but I'm not going through 25 pages to see if it has:



Everything's not always black and white?

You're the first to say it. :)

Ryan Elliott
02-23-2007, 11:48 AM
You're the first to say it. :)



Sweet!

John Drake
02-23-2007, 11:55 AM
I think the law is wrong, but I love where this is going, which is why I'm happy with the ending. It's not because I agree with Tony.